Keynote Address: The Details
1. The Companions by R.A. Salvatore - Drizzt finds his ideals compromised when his new allies butt heads with him
2. The Godborn by Paul Kemp - Vasen Cale - half-shade, half-man - seeks to inherit the legacy of his father, Erevis *cue interference from Sharrans and Netherese*
3. The Adversary by Erin M. Evans - Tiefling warlock Farideh finds herself in a pinch when sudden danger - said to be infernal in nature - threatens to knock her life off-course*
4. The Reaver by Richard Lee Byers - A ruthless Turmashi pirate/swordsman - sounds like "Anton Marivaldi" - finds his prospects threatened by an unknown enemy in the Sea of Fallen Stars
5. The Sentinel by Troy Denning - A family, including main character "Clief Kendrick" (sp?), loyal to the worship of Helm, maintains their/his service despite the Watcher's death
6. The Herald by Ed Greenwood - Elminster does what he does best - risks his life to ensure magic is not used to spread chaos and destruction; It also seems Elminster is still "world-weary" and having trouble keeping up with the ever-changing Realms
Seems the emphasis is on normal people struggling with a war that sweeps across Faerun. Multiple areas are going to be visited; doesn't seem like the spotlight is focused on any one place in particular. In the process, iconic faces turn up and have to deal with the threats immediately befalling whatever respective areas the heroes find themselves in.
****
Mike Mearls said their priorities for campaign settings are concentrated on FR for now, and that they really want to focus on it before moving on to other settings. However, he did not say that this means FR is going to be the default setting for 5E.
****
Ed insists this will not be a Time of Troubles or Spellplague-like event. He seemed to slightly emphasize the fact that the Sundering is not going to resemble the Spellplague, but that could be me hearing things in his tone.
****
Ed promises that long-term fans of RAS are definitely going to enjoy what he has in store for the first novel.
****
Some of the characters from Paul Kemp's previous works are going to reappear in The Godborn - both friendly faces and foes. Such is also the case with Erin M. Evans's book.
****
The Reaver sounds like it will be the novel that most emphasizes new characters and faces. The Sentinel, on the other hand, is said to have "new threats in a familiar place".
****
Ed says some old favorites are going to appear in his novel, The Herald. Not sure what to expect here.
****
Ed confirms that the gods and their Chosen will take part in the Sundering to some extent, but they won't overshadow the plain folk who struggle to defend what they hold dear in life.
****
Promo video - The authors are working closely together to coordinate the Sundering. They are bouncing ideas back and forth. RAS has said he's already outlined his next two books based on these meetings. Rich Baker and James Wyatt are also attending these meetings, with Wyatt being interviewed at one point.
****
Mike Mearls is asked spot-on about the presence of powerful NPCs in FR and how they draw the most attention. It has been said players don't really "own" the Realms. Mearls replies by saying that novels are going to focus on personal challenges and stories about individuals who face threats; emphasis on the personal level. Mike goes on to say that following the conclusion of the Sundering, it will be the end of an era. The iconic characters participating in the RSE are going to be sidelined (to an extent). Mearls says Elminster, Drizzt, and the gang will continue to have adventures, but they aren't going to be emphasized to as great an extent as they have in the past.
****
Two adventures are coming out for FR next year, in which parties engage the unified threats that make up the Sundering. R&D has contacted both Ed Greenwood and RAS to help them develop the adventures. Players will be able to send feedback to the designers after they complete the adventure(s). The reports are going to be collectively studied and the canonical history of FR will be influenced by these decisions and miniature storylines. Mearls gives examples like toppling a kingdom, unleashing a horde of demons, or razing Zhentil Keep again as being hypothetical possibilites; they will look at the aggregate, then use that to establish new material in FR's canonical history.
****
Ed suggests this new adventure-compilation method of laying out canon is meant to put the power in the hands of the players, in accordance with the idea that any story can arise in the Realms and that anyone can have an adventure in FR.
2. The Godborn by Paul Kemp - Vasen Cale - half-shade, half-man - seeks to inherit the legacy of his father, Erevis *cue interference from Sharrans and Netherese*
3. The Adversary by Erin M. Evans - Tiefling warlock Farideh finds herself in a pinch when sudden danger - said to be infernal in nature - threatens to knock her life off-course*
4. The Reaver by Richard Lee Byers - A ruthless Turmashi pirate/swordsman - sounds like "Anton Marivaldi" - finds his prospects threatened by an unknown enemy in the Sea of Fallen Stars
5. The Sentinel by Troy Denning - A family, including main character "Clief Kendrick" (sp?), loyal to the worship of Helm, maintains their/his service despite the Watcher's death
6. The Herald by Ed Greenwood - Elminster does what he does best - risks his life to ensure magic is not used to spread chaos and destruction; It also seems Elminster is still "world-weary" and having trouble keeping up with the ever-changing Realms
Seems the emphasis is on normal people struggling with a war that sweeps across Faerun. Multiple areas are going to be visited; doesn't seem like the spotlight is focused on any one place in particular. In the process, iconic faces turn up and have to deal with the threats immediately befalling whatever respective areas the heroes find themselves in.
****
Mike Mearls said their priorities for campaign settings are concentrated on FR for now, and that they really want to focus on it before moving on to other settings. However, he did not say that this means FR is going to be the default setting for 5E.
****
Ed insists this will not be a Time of Troubles or Spellplague-like event. He seemed to slightly emphasize the fact that the Sundering is not going to resemble the Spellplague, but that could be me hearing things in his tone.
****
Ed promises that long-term fans of RAS are definitely going to enjoy what he has in store for the first novel.
****
Some of the characters from Paul Kemp's previous works are going to reappear in The Godborn - both friendly faces and foes. Such is also the case with Erin M. Evans's book.
****
The Reaver sounds like it will be the novel that most emphasizes new characters and faces. The Sentinel, on the other hand, is said to have "new threats in a familiar place".
****
Ed says some old favorites are going to appear in his novel, The Herald. Not sure what to expect here.
****
Ed confirms that the gods and their Chosen will take part in the Sundering to some extent, but they won't overshadow the plain folk who struggle to defend what they hold dear in life.
****
Promo video - The authors are working closely together to coordinate the Sundering. They are bouncing ideas back and forth. RAS has said he's already outlined his next two books based on these meetings. Rich Baker and James Wyatt are also attending these meetings, with Wyatt being interviewed at one point.
****
Mike Mearls is asked spot-on about the presence of powerful NPCs in FR and how they draw the most attention. It has been said players don't really "own" the Realms. Mearls replies by saying that novels are going to focus on personal challenges and stories about individuals who face threats; emphasis on the personal level. Mike goes on to say that following the conclusion of the Sundering, it will be the end of an era. The iconic characters participating in the RSE are going to be sidelined (to an extent). Mearls says Elminster, Drizzt, and the gang will continue to have adventures, but they aren't going to be emphasized to as great an extent as they have in the past.
****
Two adventures are coming out for FR next year, in which parties engage the unified threats that make up the Sundering. R&D has contacted both Ed Greenwood and RAS to help them develop the adventures. Players will be able to send feedback to the designers after they complete the adventure(s). The reports are going to be collectively studied and the canonical history of FR will be influenced by these decisions and miniature storylines. Mearls gives examples like toppling a kingdom, unleashing a horde of demons, or razing Zhentil Keep again as being hypothetical possibilites; they will look at the aggregate, then use that to establish new material in FR's canonical history.
****
Ed suggests this new adventure-compilation method of laying out canon is meant to put the power in the hands of the players, in accordance with the idea that any story can arise in the Realms and that anyone can have an adventure in FR.
5. The [Forgot the Damn Name atm] by Troy Denning
The Sentinel
5. The [Forgot the Damn Name atm] by Troy Denning
The Sentinel
Thanks.
The rest sounds...like it could be awesome or terrible.
erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">
Official news:
No retcons, no reboots.
Gods are coming back.
The worlds are coming apart again.
The Spellplague is being solved.
Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.
Questions?
Cheers
Sounds encouraging, especially considering that it's official news, and not just some hint.
Apart from that? I am waiting and seeing... although without much hope.
Aside from that, I'm in board so far.
The novel series sounds great. Those are all the heavy hitters in the Realms. I was surprised to see Denning on the list as well, but I think they might be bringing him back to curry some favor with the long-time Realms fans. I thought for sure we would see Erik's name on the list, so that was a little bit of a surprise too. I'm very happy for Erin Evans. Her two Realms novels have been a highlight of the last few years. She also just won the Scribe Award for Brimstone Angels. She's going to have to stand with the big boys here, but I'm confident she'll hold her own.
For those of you that are Paul Kemp fans like me - Thank the gods! It's kind of amusing that Godborn was supposed to release at the beginning of 4th edition and instead completely skipped the edition and will now drop at the beginning of Next.
I'm also intrigued by the quests that will influence the shape of the Realms. Maybe the idea will be more impressive than the implementation, but I love the idea of getting a bunch of people playing the same quest at the same time all over the country. That's what Encounters does for a lot of people, but Encounters is still limited to people in range of a game store, which really limits it's reach.
All in all, I'm very pleased with the way the Realms looks to be shaping up. Hopefully we'll get more product in the next edition. I guess the two announced quests is already one more than 4th!
I'm still not sure how they're going to put the focus back on PC's and off Drizzt, Elminster and the gang. Time will tell.
Feeling good about this.
Well, I'll wait and see, for 2 years it seems...
To quote what Erik S. de Bie -who's in the new FR development team- posted on CK:
erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">Official news:
No retcons, no reboots.
Gods are coming back.
The worlds are coming apart again.
The Spellplague is being solved.
Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.
Questions?
Cheers
Sounds encouraging, especially considering that it's official news, and not just some hint.
Can't say how relieved I am.
Can't say how relieved I am.
Same, here. No words can express how overjoyed I am that the Realms are returning to their roots.
I'll echo those who said they would like to see Elaine Cunningham amongst the Sundering Six (make it the Sundering Seven!). It wouldn't have hurt to have another female writer on board and maybe another female lead character. Perhaps she could have helped clean up the Halruaa situation.
Also would have liked to see Erik Scott de Bie get in on the Sundering action. I've enjoyed his Realms novels, especially Ghostwalker, where I purchased the book even after having read it on loan from the library. He's been one of the more involved authors of the new (3e and later era) Realms writers and has been active in bridging the gap between old and new editions. I think with a bit more of a push (participation in a big event might do it), WotC can find in Erik another author/character combo to reach massive popularity on the level of some of the big author/character combos iconic to the Realms novel line.
I'm still quite pleased by the authors chosen for the Next Realms transition. We have some of the Realms heavies and some of the most popular and steady and reliable authors in the novel line mixed in with a veteran guest and newer, but proven voice. If WotC is going to use a Realms Sundering Event to transition, it really should be reflected in a dedicated novel series rather than the jumpy piecemeal fashion we had during the Spellplague.
The new logo looks interesting, a mix of old and new. I only hope this is a true indication of the direction and not just a gimmick.
Official news:
No retcons, no reboots.
Gods are coming back.
The worlds are coming apart again.
The Spellplague is being solved.
Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.
But that said, we've got this wealth of 2nd ed books on the Forgotten Realms just chock full of lore waiting to be used. I'm thinking I'll still want to move the timeline back to 1370 DR unless my players really get upset with me. Just so I can take advantage of it all, ESPECIALLY if they're going to start releasing old PDFs.
That said, a second reason to move time back (not just to take advantage of all that lore) was to bring in the idea that "anything can happen." I'm glad to see that idea is making it's way into core FR.
The big surprise for me is to find out that Troy Denning is a guy
To quote what Erik S. de Bie -who's in the new FR development team- posted on CK:
erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">Official news:
No retcons, no reboots.
Gods are coming back.
The worlds are coming apart again.
The Spellplague is being solved.
Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.
Questions?
Cheers
Sounds encouraging, especially considering that it's official news, and not just some hint.
Nice ! Thanks Irennan for the good news.
Anything else Erik said about the Realms ?
To quote what Erik S. de Bie -who's in the new FR development team- posted on CK:
erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">Official news:
No retcons, no reboots.
Gods are coming back.
The worlds are coming apart again.
The Spellplague is being solved.
Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.
Questions?
Cheers
Sounds encouraging, especially considering that it's official news, and not just some hint.
Nice ! Thanks Irennan for the good news.
Anything else Erik said about the Realms ?
You're welcome. And -AFAIK- nothing else specific has been said about the Realms yet, aside that (surprisingly, to me at least) WotC has been monitoring all the discussions about the FR on CK, here, and on other sites, and that requests, proposals and constructive criticism has been and will be listened.
As for the people on the team, among the freelancers (as far as I understand, and besides Erik) Ed (obviously), Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Brian James, Brian Cortijo and the authors of the Sundering novels are in it. Among the official WotC people, James Wyatt and Matt Sernet are involved.
This looks promising, but I'm kinda annoyed by the 2 years ''flat'' period...
I'll echo those who said they would like to see Elaine Cunningham amongst the Sundering Six (make it the Sundering Seven!). It wouldn't have hurt to have another female writer on board and maybe another female lead character. Perhaps she could have helped clean up the Halruaa situation.
As will I. I honestly can't say how much I have missed seeing Elaine write for the Realms. Also, as much as I have missed such major personalities as Liriel, Arilyn, Danilo and even Elaith, I would like to see the stories of others continued too (to copy a list of my own from a post from 3 years ago Queen Free, Mother Laspeera and "Alusair, Dauntless, Myrmeen Lhal, Caladnei, Piergeiron Paladinson, Danilo Thann, Arilyn Moonblade, Mirt, Durnan, Asper, Tessaril Winter, Giogioni & Cat Wyvernspur, Glarasteer Rhauligan, Cassandra Thann, Matteo, Narnra Shalace, Tzigone, Taern Hornblade, The Knights and Thorn")
Most of these people aren't the Elminsters, Drizzts or even Chosen of the Realms. They might be rich, royalty or powerful (some of them) but most of them are (mostly) human dealing with things as and how they can. I enjoy those stories the most (though I will admit to an abiding love of "Uncle Weirdbeard" and his adoptive daughters), and in fact my favourite story fragment (so far) in all of Realms writing features, a character so minor that she never appeared in any other text apart from a few paragraphs in that one book!
The Candlekeep Meet Up was closer to 4 hours.
Maybe Ed will give the tablets the Greenwood treatment.
Or it could be WotC using subliminal messaging that we all need a tablet to read the next ebook.
Lol, I wouldn't exclude this
It's not that I'm *upset* with the idea. At the end of the day, the Tablets of Fate are far from the worst thing I've encountered in a FR novel (and I've read 150+ of them). I just always found them uninspired - a plot device that was tossed into the mix because no one could think of anything better. It was also confusing to me that the Overgod of Realmspace couldn't figure out where a couple of his lessers stashed an incredibly important metaphysical thingamajig that he had created.
But the point was that the tablets were just tablets with some text that never held any real power. The Dark Three fell for a hoax when they thought that stealing them would change anything. Ao could have interceeded and talen them back at any time, but he wanted the ToT to play out.
At least that was how it was portrayed at the end of the avatar novels, now it seems they are changing the tablets into actual items of power
But the point was that the tablets were just tablets with some text that never held any real power. The Dark Three fell for a hoax when they thought that stealing them would change anything. Ao could have interceeded and talen them back at any time, but he wanted the ToT to play out.
Well, yes. That was made obvious to the reader later on. Should've clarified. I didn't mean I was still confused by the middle/end of the books; I meant only towards the very beginning, when Ao literally cast down the gods because "you guys are jerks and I've had enough". A divine goose chase for the sake of mass deicide wasn't entertaining to me, all in all, hence why I called the ToF hokey.
EDIT: On a semi-related note, now that I think about it, it occurs to me that Erik's statement that gods are returning doesn't necessarily refer only to those killed during the Spellplague. For all we know, deities during the ToT could be reborn. If they are actually using the Tablets of Fate and referencing the ToT in that way, I suppose it wouldn't be ridiculous to think a deity slain during the ToT could come back. Unlikely, yes, but you never know. I could think of a few people who would dig Leira's return.
Tablets of Fate!? IM confused even more now, so this isnt a new Sundering, its a new Time of Troubles? Whats next? Dawn Cataclysm 2?
No, Ed has flat-out said the Sundering will not resemble the Time of Troubles. How exactly the Tablets of Fate will be utilized is up in the air, if that concept doesn't get scrapped between now and FR's 5E debut, but I'm trusting Ed's word. I sincerely doubt we'll see any gods walking Faerun or duking it out in Tantras in giganti-form.
Ao & the Tablets aren't that bad, and it could certainly be much worse. But I do have to agree with DocWolfie, it does sound like it amounts to a retcon, even if one isn't used technically.
ANd I really hate a retcon.
Point of order, btw, the Abeir elements were not retcon'd in, even in a "not technically but basically" sense. They were the result of a new event.
The Genasi of Calimsham, however....
That one made me angry.
Wondering if Azmodeus will lose divinity and Azuth brought back.
Point of order, btw, the Abeir elements were not retcon'd in, even in a "not technically but basically" sense. They were the result of a new event.
Really? For it not to be a retcon, Abeir, had to exist before the Spellplague brought it into conjuction (or back into conjuction) with Toril. Abeir was not created by the Spellplague, its pre-existing elements were interwoven with the geography of Toril by the Spellplague.
Abeir and Toril were separated by Ao after the Dawn War, right? When was the Dawn War "revealed" to be part of the continuity? I've just had a quick search (all I can do while in the wrong continent) and I can't find a reference to it from before the FRCG was published. Were there no creation stories from before then? Isn't that kind of a big thing to not have revealed in the twenty odd years of FR leading up to that?
Who knows, it may not meet your definition of a retcon, but it is skirting dangerously close to mine.
Not that it matters either way, of course. What is done, is done.
Ao & the Tablets aren't that bad, and it could certainly be much worse.
Agree, but with a teeny bit more distaste for the Ao & Tablets storyline. As I recall, Ao was sort of a retcon himself, no? Maybe he will destroy the tablets and then go elsewhere. Personally I enjoyed the Avatar trilogy, but obviously a macguffin repeat doesn't sound very cool.
heh, gotta agree with Iluvrien, that was a pretty big retcon. Toril used to be referred to as Abeir-Toril, which was usually just shortened to Toril, for whatever reason, and the two were used interchangeably through several 2e sources, and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned at least once in 3e, but sadly I can't check that until I get my books out of boxes after moving.
This is pretty much what I remember as well. Abeir wasn't totally pulled out of nowhere for 4e.
erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">Originally posted by Brian R. James
As for the gods...they're ALL coming back so it's a moot point now anyway
That's cool, really cool. I just hope that the way they'll be brought back won't be too trivial, but I'm optimistic about it...
Point of order, btw, the Abeir elements were not retcon'd in, even in a "not technically but basically" sense. They were the result of a new event.
Really? For it not to be a retcon, Abeir, had to exist before the Spellplague brought it into conjuction (or back into conjuction) with Toril. Abeir was not created by the Spellplague, its pre-existing elements were interwoven with the geography of Toril by the Spellplague.
Abeir and Toril were separated by Ao after the Dawn War, right? When was the Dawn War "revealed" to be part of the continuity? I've just had a quick search (all I can do while in the wrong continent) and I can't find a reference to it from before the FRCG was published. Were there no creation stories from before then? Isn't that kind of a big thing to not have revealed in the twenty odd years of FR leading up to that?
Who knows, it may not meet your definition of a retcon, but it is skirting dangerously close to mine.
Not that it matters either way, of course. What is done, is done.
"Turns out, bits of history we thought were one way were actually another" isn't a retcon, IMO. Now, many things from that time could have been further away from a retcon. In fact, they could have been further from retcon and still had all of the same elements.
But revealing new things about the history of the world/universe is something I expect to happen occasionally, both big and small. A world with no hidden history is an insufferably boring world, IMO.
About all the gods returning. I'd be cool if that means the gods come back from ToT, including old Mystra rather than Midnight, with perhaps Midnight stepping down but being granted the role of goddess of goodly magic or somesuch. Then, bring back Bhaal.
Could Cyric die, though? I'd be cool with him dieing. Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
Just to clarify, the only reason it was given the Abeir name was so that it would appear first on shelves and such, at least I seem to recall that was the primary reason for it. Might have been Schend or Grubb, or possibly someone else, but I'm pretty sure it was one of those two.
Jeff Grubb in concert with Ed, from the looks of things. The best ref I have been able to find is to an interview with Jeff for a podcast. I will listen to it tonight and will post specifics, should anything interesting one way or the other come up.
"Turns out, bits of history we thought were one way were actually another" isn't a retcon, IMO. Now, many things from that time could have been further away from a retcon. In fact, they could have been further from retcon and still had all of the same elements.
But revealing new things about the history of the world/universe is something I expect to happen occasionally, both big and small. A world with no hidden history is an insufferably boring world, IMO.
About all the gods returning. I'd be cool if that means the gods come back from ToT, including old Mystra rather than Midnight, with perhaps Midnight stepping down but being granted the role of goddess of goodly magic or somesuch. Then, bring back Bhaal.
Could Cyric die, though? I'd be cool with him dieing. Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
I still say the Dawn War/Abeir stuff was shoehorned in to fit the "everything is core" mantra. I hope DDN gets rid of that Primordial-abeir stuff as well as other content non-Realms specific (That includes Planescape and Spelljammer.) That way, you can drop what you like back into the Realms to fit your take on whatever multiverse you want the Realms in.
Also, killing Cyric would be nice. And please, take Kelemvor with him.
About all the gods returning. I'd be cool if that means the gods come back from ToT, including old Mystra rather than Midnight, with perhaps Midnight stepping down but being granted the role of goddess of goodly magic or somesuch. Then, bring back Bhaal.
Could Cyric die, though? I'd be cool with him dieing. Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
As I see it, the emphasis on ''all'' hints that all the gods removed are going to be brought back. That means the ones gone with the ToT, Mask, the Drow Pantheon, Mystra (one of her versions
), Helm, Tyr and the ones merged/removed by the SP. That's going to bring a bit of conflict tho (like Bhaal vs Cyric, or Myrkul vs Kelemvor). We'll see in 2 years...erdana,Arial,Helvetica">erdana,Arial,Helvetica; font-size:small">All indication is that going forward, the Realms is going to focus on smaller, character-driven stories that don't reshape the world every six months. We need to break the "bigger = more exciting" bias that we have. There will be stories about iconic characters--you better believe Drizzt is alive and well--they just won't be saving the world every book.
The Harpers series analogy is a really good one. That's where WotC is aiming going forward: small-scale, exciting, personal, character-driven novels. We don't have to blow up the world every few months to sell novels. (Or, at least, we shouldn't.)
The cycle of ever-escalating RSEs was basically a sales-gimmick, the thought being that everyone who participated in the Realms HAD to read these novels, to know what was going on. But the problem with that is that you're constantly rewriting your setting after every book, and it gets wearisome for the fans.
Realms Shaking Events are going to be left to you, the players, running through campaigns. WotC is going to the plan of "collect feedback from DMs about what happened in a set of campaigns, and incorporate that going forward." Did the majority of people playing this adventure in Sundabar assassinate the king? Then it happened. Did such-and-such thieves' guild get destroyed in the course of an adventure in Baldur's Gate? Then it happened in the lore. Shared-experience events will be canonized.
Novels will also (presumably) still be canon, but they will be way, WAY less intrusive. They will have little bearing on the course of world-wide events, but rather merely concern that small group of people in that small area. You won't be faced with the option to ignore them or not, but rather the option to incorporate them or not.
"Turns out, bits of history we thought were one way were actually another" isn't a retcon, IMO. Now, many things from that time could have been further away from a retcon. In fact, they could have been further from retcon and still had all of the same elements.
But revealing new things about the history of the world/universe is something I expect to happen occasionally, both big and small. A world with no hidden history is an insufferably boring world, IMO.
About all the gods returning. I'd be cool if that means the gods come back from ToT, including old Mystra rather than Midnight, with perhaps Midnight stepping down but being granted the role of goddess of goodly magic or somesuch. Then, bring back Bhaal.
Could Cyric die, though? I'd be cool with him dieing. Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
I still say the Dawn War/Abeir stuff was shoehorned in to fit the "everything is core" mantra. I hope DDN gets rid of that Primordial-abeir stuff as well as other content non-Realms specific (That includes Planescape and Spelljammer.) That way, you can drop what you like back into the Realms to fit your take on whatever multiverse you want the Realms in.
Also, killing Cyric would be nice. And please, take Kelemvor with him.
Vehemently disagree about Kelemvor. At most I'd be ok with him and Myrkul both having dominion over death, but in different ways. Myrkul can come back, find his lordship over death taken, and steal Undeath, Necromancy, and decay or somesuch, which Kelemvor remains god of The Dead, and perhaps becomes guardian of the faithless, finally explaining why there is no more wall of the faithless? (I despise the wall concept, and will probably vomit in my mouth a bit if it returns.)
The rest, if Dragonborn, Genasi and all that go away in a wave of magic, I'm not sure my retcon filter will enable me to play in FR anymore. They're there, they're part of the setting now, erasing them wholesale would just...really grind my gears.
About all the gods returning. I'd be cool if that means the gods come back from ToT, including old Mystra rather than Midnight, with perhaps Midnight stepping down but being granted the role of goddess of goodly magic or somesuch. Then, bring back Bhaal.
Could Cyric die, though? I'd be cool with him dieing. Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
As I see it, the emphasis on ''all'' hints that all the gods removed are going to be brought back. That means the ones gone with the ToT, Mask, the Drow Pantheon, Mystra (one of her versions), Helm, Tyr and the ones merged/removed by the SP. That's going to bring a bit of conflict tho (like Bhaal vs Cyric, or Myrkul vs Kelemvor). We'll see in 2 years...
Myrkul always...well, I can't think of a verb for "made me not care at all because he was completely boring". Underwhelmed me, I guess? Bhaal was far more interesting than Cyric, to me, but I'd even be ok with both being around, with Cyric being the mad god of something or other, and Bhaal taking his old place.
About all the gods returning. I'd be cool if that means the gods come back from ToT, including old Mystra rather than Midnight, with perhaps Midnight stepping down but being granted the role of goddess of goodly magic or somesuch. Then, bring back Bhaal.
Could Cyric die, though? I'd be cool with him dieing. Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
As I see it, the emphasis on ''all'' hints that all the gods removed are going to be brought back. That means the ones gone with the ToT, Mask, the Drow Pantheon, Mystra (one of her versions), Helm, Tyr and the ones merged/removed by the SP. That's going to bring a bit of conflict tho (like Bhaal vs Cyric, or Myrkul vs Kelemvor). We'll see in 2 years...
Vehemently disagree about Kelemvor. At most I'd be ok with him and Myrkul both having dominion over death, but in different ways. Myrkul can come back, find his lordship over death taken, and steal Undeath, Necromancy, and decay or somesuch, which Kelemvor remains god of The Dead, and perhaps becomes guardian of the faithless, finally explaining why there is no more wall of the faithless? (I despise the wall concept, and will probably vomit in my mouth a bit if it returns.)
Myrkul always...well, I can't think of a verb for "made me not care at all because he was completely boring". Underwhelmed me, I guess? Bhaal was far more interesting than Cyric, to me, but I'd even be ok with both being around, with Cyric being the mad god of something or other, and Bhaal taking his old place.
Yes, I agree with this. Myrkul looks too much like the ''death is scary'' stereotypical deity of death. Kelemvor makes more sense in holding that domain but, as you proposed, he fits well as a god of the dead and the faithless (whose wall I fiercely hate, to the point that its disappearance was one of the few things I liked about 4e). Having the two of them holding different aspects of the death portfolio would be a good thing.
Yes, I agree with this. Myrkul looks too much like the ''death is scary'' stereotypical deity of death. Kelemvor makes more sense in holding that domain but, as you proposed, he fits well as a god of the dead and the faithless (whose wall I fiercely hate, to the point that its disappearance was one of the few things I liked about 4e). Having the two of them holding different aspects of the death portfolio would be a good thing.
Yeah, I think that would work better than my first thought of just not letting Myrkul come back at all. :P
That said, here's Paul S. Kemp's take on the Sundering.
From this, it really sounds like the Realms are returning to their roots, OGB style.
To me a not so humanistic continent was an interesting hostile land to put players into.
The rest, if Dragonborn, Genasi and all that go away in a wave of magic, I'm not sure my retcon filter will enable me to play in FR anymore. They're there, they're part of the setting now, erasing them wholesale would just...really grind my gears.
Yeah that would bug me also. With the spellplague if you wanted to play after it, most likely bye to your old character. Now Sundering if they take those away any player that had them lose those characters also.
Yeah I know you can do what you want in your own campaign. But many DMs like to keep their FR campaign in harmony with the main core.
So hopefully they find a way to include some of the new that came with the post spell plague FR and what they are doing with the Sundering.
Not really a fan of the Returned Abeir being removed as a continent. While not a fan of the name, it was a lot more interesting of a place to take characters than their new world Maztica.
To me a not so humanistic continent was an interesting hostile land to put players into.
heck yes. I loved having a continent where humans weren't dominant, dragons ruled, etc. The whole idea of it being this whole different feel from the main continent is something I'd greatly miss.
The rest, if Dragonborn, Genasi and all that go away in a wave of magic, I'm not sure my retcon filter will enable me to play in FR anymore. They're there, they're part of the setting now, erasing them wholesale would just...really grind my gears.
Yeah that would bug me also. With the spellplague if you wanted to play after it, most likely by old character. Now Sundering if they take those away any player that had them loses those characters also.
Yeah I know you can do what you want in your own campaign. But many DMs like to keep their FR campaign in harmony with the main core.
So hopefully they find a way to include some of the new that came with the post spell plague FR and what they are doing with the Sundering.
Exactly.
It reminds me of the expendables, who a whose who of action heroes came together to,make a movie that plays to their respective strengths. Only these guys and girl are authors, not actors.
We know Toril and Abier are going to be reshaped and dead/exiled/merged Gods restored. What we don't know is what effect does this have on the planes? Will it end up the Great Wheel again, The Great Tree, the Axis again, something new or a mix?
Maybe the Great Tree, but with access to Sigil and the Shadowfell and Feywild and Elemental Chaos remain?
I bet Abier remains accessible via magic, after all Returned Abier, Tymanther, and Akanil aren't being destroyed just moved, so access by magic or spelljammer should be possible.
I do look forward to the return of Mulhorand, I loved both the Egyptian Flavour and the plotlines, I hated that they killed it just as it was resurging.
I will note that High Imaskri isn't from Abier so a new Mulhorand-Imaskri war is likely to be one of the wars that breaks out. Now that would be coming full circle.
I do look forward to the return of Mulhorand, I loved both the Egyptian Flavour and the plotlines, I hated that they killed it just as it was resurging. I will note that High Imaskri isn't from Abier so a new Mulhorand-Imaskri war is likely to be one of the wars that breaks out. Now that would be coming full circle.
Couldn't the same be said if they left Mulhorand on Abier like below:
I bet Abier remains accessible via magic, after all Returned Abier, Tymanther, and Akanil aren't being destroyed just moved, so access by magic or spelljammer should be possible.
They'd still be accessible.
mulhaund not so much and despised unther....
maztica on the otherhand would have always done far better if it was described as an un hosipital area filled with tribes of various humanoids and carnivous flora and fauna....
or something.
I liked akanul..... and Imaskar
mulhaund not so much and despised unther....
maztica on the otherhand would have always done far better if it was described as an un hosipital area filled with tribes of various humanoids and carnivous flora and fauna....
or something.
I should dig up some campaign notes from an old DM that ran a Maztica game. It was really filled with Mesoamerican folklore and other interesting things (including Dinosaurs on the other side of a strange, magical cave. We had to recover a sacred artifact beyond the case... without being eaten by angry dinos in the valley ahead)
Needless to say, wandering at night lead us to a near terrible fate at the hands of a Huay Chivo or Mayan version of the Chupacabra (it ate our rogue, luckily the DM gave him one of the warrior NPCs to play with for the next day, as some warriors decided to assist our quest for both trust and earning our place... or something like that.) We later encountered some creature in mythology that's the ghost of an angry woman who died in giving birth. I think it was there to chill our spines and rustle our jimmies.
The following night, our troop bumped into a creature that goes by "The Night Axe", a headless being with split open torso that creates the sound of chopping wood when its ribs click. Our wizard belted for it while we just tried to study it. It beckened to come closer as its snapping ribcage revealed a heart (Apparently you get a wish if you don't lose your hand trying to steal the heart, but we didn't figure that out. Also, running away from it causes terrible fates. Our wizard was magically chopped in half as he ran!) Needless to say we slowly made our way around it and left Maztica, too freaked out by the weird stuff we saw. And so we failed our mission of trying to learn the magical secrets of Maztica (plume magic)
So yeah, that was my Maztica experience. Mayans and Aztecs knew how to make nightmare fuel! Whose to say you can't run horror in the Realms?
Needless to say, the DM took his knowledge of Mesoamerican and South American folklore, his Maztica content, mashed the two together, and gave the setting a total makeover.
EDIT: Looks at Silver's post count...
Must be from all that SPAM, and being a Section 4 Soldier...
"Turns out, bits of history we thought were one way were actually another" isn't a retcon, IMO. Now, many things from that time could have been further away from a retcon. In fact, they could have been further from retcon and still had all of the same elements.But revealing new things about the history of the world/universe is something I expect to happen occasionally, both big and small. A world with no hidden history is an insufferably boring world, IMO.
All of which is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. Just for the record, I understand your logic, I just don't agree with it [;)].
Heh, you guys are having some indepth conversations about everything, and I still cant get passed the name, haha. I mean seriously though the Sundering!? Its been used already, I mean im not a hard core Realms nerd (maybe a little) or nuthin but still even I knew there was already a "Sundering" (sure it wasnt I thought it was, but still I knew that there was one.) I just dont get it, why not use an orginal name? Like maybe the Cleansing or something? The Reaping, the Spellacolypse? I dunno anything other than the "Sundering" so now when sages mention the "Sundering" someone'll have to ask which one?
I was wondering about this, it is a valid point, but what if one is an in-setting name and one isn't? For example, what if what the Elves call the Sundering is an in-setting name... but this new event, although the designers are calling it the Sundering (to evoke images of conjoined objects being split), what if the Sages of the Realms end up calling it something completely different?
Just to clarify, the only reason it was given the Abeir name was so that it would appear first on shelves and such, at least I seem to recall that was the primary reason for it. Might have been Schend or Grubb, or possibly someone else, but I'm pretty sure it was one of those two. Taking a 'formal' name and turning it into split worlds... it's a questionable move in the first place, and its even stupider if you know the history behind the name. So I'd say that kinda did qualify as pulling the notion out of somewhere unmentionable. But hey, if it works and you like it, then cool, it's all good.
Haha!
Okay, so I guess saying Abeir was pulled out of somewhere substantial is a bit of a stretch. Still, I wasn't intending to cast a judgment on it one way or the other. I simply was pointing out that it was spun out of something with a connection--however ephemeral--to oldschool lore...fwiw.Yeah, this new post-Sundering era of the Realms is going to be designed for the greatest possible number of people to enjoy, so accomodating many options is a must.
That said, here's Paul S. Kemp's take on the Sundering.
From this, it really sounds like the Realms are returning to their roots, OGB style.
Really appreciated this link. Thank you, Irennan!
Regarding the name "The Sundering" itself...I guess they had to call it something, and the meaning fits well enough. I'm fine with it and I'm sure it'll be cool. However, my FIRST reaction was skepticism followed by some sarcasm. It's not a retcon or anything...it's just called THE SUNDERING... dandandaaaaaaahhhnnn!!! (Please, everyone, stay calm.) Toooootally different from the Spellplague, the Time of Troubles, the Godswar, the Cataclysm, the Second Cataclysm, the Dawn Cataclysm, the Fake Cataclysm, etc.....
/end snarkAnyway, onward speculation.....Maybe if all the gods come back they will have to fight each other for their portfolios Realms Deity Deathmatch style!
Yeah, this new post-Sundering era of the Realms is going to be designed for the greatest possible number of people to enjoy, so accomodating many options is a must.
That said, here's Paul S. Kemp's take on the Sundering.
From this, it really sounds like the Realms are returning to their roots, OGB style.
Really appreciated this link. Thank you, Irennan!
[...]
Anyway, onward speculation.....Maybe if all the gods come back they will have to fight each other for their portfolios Realms Deity Deathmatch style!
You're welcome.
And about the speculation, Gods fighting over their portfolios would defeat the purpose of bringing them back. Maybe they could be given different aspects of the same portfolio (like -say- Kelemvor could be the compassionate deity protector of the souls of the dead, while Myrkul could take the role of the god of undeath, decay and death meant as the entity who brings the end, something like the Grim Reaper).
That said, I wouldn't mind at all to see Bhaal tearing Cyric apart, while Leira has fun screwing his mind, or Mystra crushing Lolth (as the bug she is) for attempting to take her portfolio while she wasn't watching (with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun gladly lending a hand)
I always wondered how they created the 4E world map until my son was about two months' old earlier this year and I noticed the smears in his diapers - and even the colours - looked too much like the FR4E map for it to be a coincidence.
Anyway Demigods can share domains with greater powers according to AO. AO rebuilding the tablets of fate so various Gods maybe getting new responsiblities/jobs, and power levels will shift too.
I hope they kill the exarch crud and restore the QuasiGod/Demigod/Lesser God/Intermediate God/Greater God system. Demigods should grant thier own magic again.
Chessenta will get back the cities it lost as well. Cities like Zhentil will be rebuilt as well, but not by AO of course, just in the way of Neverwinter and Luskan, people move backp and rebuild.
I really want more details.
I find I'm looking foward to it.
Daron the answer to your Question is no. That,would defeat the purpose of the Sundering which is to restore the parts of Toril with Toril and Abier with Abier. That means Tymanther, Akanil, and returned Abier have to go back. Its like the whole point of the Sundering. Those empires have no place on Toril, Mulhorand and Uther do, they a key part of Faerun history. Mulhorand gave rise to Thay for example. Chessenta will get back the cities it lost as well. Cities like Zhentil will be rebuilt as well, but not by AO of course, just in the way of Neverwinter and Luskan, people move backp and rebuild. I really want more details. I find I'm looking foward to it.
I am hoping much the same you are. I would rather Abeir return to being its own world that people can play in, rather than having it joined onto the realms.
I am hoping much the same you are. I would rather Abeir return to being its own world that people can play in, rather than having it joined onto the realms.
You don't know how much I want Abeir to be an independent setting... A switcharoo with the lost countries and continents first would be fine. Though, going off my table's crossover canon, we helped literally kill Abeir (All villains game, what can I say?) in hopes of preventing it from existing in our characters' reality. Needless to say it caused that world's Maztica to explode and the citizens of Returned Abeir to go insane, resulting in World War Realms. Yeah, the folks I play with are insane.
That said, I wouldn't mind at all to see Bhaal tearing Cyric apart, while Leira has fun screwing his mind, or Mystra crushing Lolth (as the bug she is) for attempting to take her portfolio while she wasn't watching (with Eilistraee and Vhaeraun gladly lending a hand)
Dude, quit reading my mind
Also, I don't know what's with you guys, but Sundering sounds epic. Okay, it sounds like a cheesy metal concept album...
SUUUNNNDDEEERRRIIINNNGG! That is fun to say...
"To clarify based on what I heard at the “What is the Sundering” panels: That Abeir and Toril are separating does not mean that all elements of one world are gone on the other world. I believe James said specifically that Dragonborn would remain in Toril. FWIW."
Not a rock solid pronouncement, but highly likely in my opinion.
I will note that High Imaskri isn't from Abier so a new Mulhorand-Imaskri war is likely to be one of the wars that breaks out. Now that would be coming full circle.
One of those things I'm rather looking forward to.
"Turns out, bits of history we thought were one way were actually another" isn't a retcon, IMO. Now, many things from that time could have been further away from a retcon. In fact, they could have been further from retcon and still had all of the same elements.But revealing new things about the history of the world/universe is something I expect to happen occasionally, both big and small. A world with no hidden history is an insufferably boring world, IMO.
All of which is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. Just for the record, I understand your logic, I just don't agree with it [;)].
I'd like to point out at this point that I made it very clear that it was all my opinion in the text you quoted.
plus.google.com/u/0/10510511976876978409...
Also, FWIW, if I remember correctly, James Wyatt indicated at one of the panels that the separation of the worlds does not mean that all elements of one world are gone from the other. He specifically mentioned Dragonborn as an example of an element that would remain.
So it doesn't sound like a complete reversion. I just hope it isn't just a token area that remains.
I think the main continent has more than enough groumd for human-centric stories and adventures.
) that way the Earthy realms can come back, shake hands with the Abeir continent and throw a party... or something. Either way, my inter-dimensional GRIMDARK knights of rage and death might take their hate plague to Toril. No wait, I promised myself that bad WH40K rip-off would never see the light again.as I said I like Imaskar
If the continent is that liked, why not have it sail somewhere else into Abeir-Toril (I still don't recognize the two planets
And I can say the same about i remaining. Why can't you travel to those other earthy realms elsewhere?
BTW earthy? Elves, dragons, undead, magic etc...
Personally I found Maztica rupulsive and unoriginal. Not only did it just attempt to past our explorer history into the realms, it repeated the same repusive behavior in the stories and plots.
Personally I found Maztica rupulsive and unoriginal. Not only did it just attempt to past our explorer history into the realms, it repeated the same repusive behavior in the stories and plots.
I have to agree. That was always an awkward thing to consider. It was clear where the designers were drawing their inspiration from, and it wasn't exactly an appealing source. It was painfully obvious they were just ripping chunks from history and stuffing it into the Realms.
J I have to agree. That was always an awkward thing to consider. It was clear where the designers were drawing their inspiration from, and it wasn't exactly an appealing source. It was painfully obvious they were just ripping chunks from history and stuffing it into the Realms.
Perhaps its best for said products to be split off from the Realms into something independent (not to mention, getting rid of the unneeded faux-historical parrellels/explorer nonsense and adding more strange and mystical content would be neat. Maybe just retcon it as, we've always known about it...) I find Mesoamerican mythology to be quite cool, but that's just me. Perhaps if it was given a less cliche rewrite, it'd be a tad better. At least they kinda got it right with Al Qadim and Kara-Tur (which should probably be independent settings too, with options for dropping them into the Realms if you desire.) As for Returned Abeir, I've already made it known that I plain and simple hate it and extends from my PoL dislike. No matter... The most we can do is wait and see more info unravel.
I find Mesoamerican mythology to be quite cool, but that's just me.
I enjoy the mesoamerican mythology also. But that could have been added without the rehash of the age of exploration all over again. It was less magical and more just a reprint from a history book. It was almost like they ignored how the rest of the Realms and how the past influence those areas and magic.
The whole Horde thing turned me off back then also. And that came about around the same time, so I'm guessing some of the same people were involved.
At least they kinda got it right with Al Qadim
I liked a lot of the Al Qadim content. That was much more magical and fitting with the Realms.
and Kara-Tur (which should probably be independent settings too
I don't know for certain, but wasn't Kara-Tur originally to be destined for Greyhawk?
As for Returned Abeir, I've already made it known that I plain and simple hate it and extends from my PoL dislike.
I liked it just because it really did have a different feel to it from the main continent. So traveling there was a lot more like traveling to another land back in Marco Polo's times. Strange and mysterious.
With Returned Abier, I was disappointed writers didn't take it up and do a Novel there. Seemed like a great place for a bit more freedom with creativity. And you could flesh out a Dragonborn companion to your main character (storyline of a group of humans trying to flee to the free cities, and a Dragonborn decides to help them, or even have a Dragonborn main character. Or a group striking out from Evermeet to scout out more for the security of their land, and running into disaster with the Dragon lands. Not only interesting novel ideas, but campaign ideas really.
I think there was someone playing a Dragonborn in every game I've played from when they introduced 4e, and that included countless Ecounters sessions with many, many different players. So they are popular from my experience.
I find Mesoamerican mythology to be quite cool, but that's just me.
I enjoy the mesoamerican mythology also. But that could have been added without the rehash of the age of exploration all over again. It was less magical and more just a reprint from a history book. It was almost like they ignored how the rest of the Realms and how the past influence those areas and magic.
The whole Horde thing turned me off back then also. And that came about around the same time, so I'm guessing some of the same people were involved.
I won't deny that was wasted potential. However, there's no reason why the setting can't have a second chance. If it's changed to better fit the Realms, not too many people will care. Heck, I'd welcome it. The Maztica game I experienced quite a few years back was very different from the book. The DM I had was wonderful and succeeded in blending it in with the Realms. It wasn't the history book mashed with the Realms, it felt natural. Sure, the "lore" was changed, but who cares? There's a lot of junk in the lore that deserves to be changed at your table. Since it was pretty much forgotten, there's an opportunity to do it right.
I liked it just because it really did have a different feel to it from the main continent. So traveling there was a lot more like traveling to another land back in Marco Polo's times. Strange and mysterious.
With Returned Abier, I was disappointed writers didn't take it up and do a Novel there. Seemed like a great place for a bit more freedom with creativity. And you could flesh out a Dragonborn companion to your main character (storyline of a group of humans trying to flee to the free cities, and a Dragonborn decides to help them, or even have a Dragonborn main character. Or a group striking out from Evermeet to scout out more for the security of their land, and running into disaster with the Dragon lands. Not only interesting novel ideas, but campaign ideas really.
I think there was someone playing a Dragonborn in every game I've played from when they introduced 4e, and that included countless Ecounters sessions with many, many different players. So they are popular from my experience.
To each their own. I didn't get that type of feel from it... Plus, is that not the explorer feel?
The POL fluff never stuck with me, hence we Returned Abeir never stuck. I was more than just a bit disgruntled to see the PoL/Dawn whatever stuff back in '08 and I'm still unsatisfied with it. Personally, I wish they made DDI articles for how the new races could have fit into Faerun and beyond.
I liked akanul and I love Imaskar and not too much the places that they replaced.
the dragonborn aren't leaving, to take out tymather would make the designers have to write up a story explaining the why tymather is gone and the dragonborn are still around as well as the return of mulhoaund resurfacing in Imaskar...
but as I said it makes it easier to write things out when no novels/ adventures/ ddi articles are written.
Here is some guesses.
My guess is High Imaskar survives in Skyhome and surrounding area when Mulhorandi revives. They'll be war, but a stalemate occurs, both survive, high tension, great plot lines.
As for Uther and Tymanther, they switch, but not perfectly and the two races mingle. Interestingly both Tiamat and Baphomuts, both with growing popularity amoung the Dragonborn are from the Original Uther Pantheon, in Baphomuts case as the more humaniod god Marduk, who died during the time of troubles, but is restored as Baphomut later. My bet is some kind of fusion of Tymanther and Uther. If not I suspect it will still have a high dragonborn population, especially in outlying areas.
Akanul I think is exiled, I liked Akanul too, but Chessanta wants its lost cities back. I can't see how Akanul stays on Toril. Maybe the capital city flies away when AO comes calling.
In Calimshan, I could see the Sundering causing enough chaos to stir up a human revolt, with the Skyfire Emirates being over thrown. Some destoyed Calishan cities could then be rebuilt as well. The Skyfire Emirates are on thier last legs anyways.
I also bet Sembia get liberated from Netheril, but Netheril leaves its mark, a small Shadar-Kai and Shade population.
Oh and James said elements, not regions. I knew Dragonborn, possibly spellscars and a variety of other elements that have dispersed through the Realms will stay. Leaving entire huge regions defeats the perpose of the Sundering. That means Akanul, Tymanther, and returned Abier are exiled, but pieces may remain, a Genasi village here, a Dragonborn Clanhold there.
Also to note if the creation of the Elemental Chaos is reversed as well, that means Genasi will probably go back to thier Unielement forms as well. No presto chango I'm a different element, just like in the old days.
The Planes are harder to predict, do they keep the Faeri/Feywild or make it more distant for example. My guess is that it gets more distant, but not as distant as it was, you can still visit, its just not as easy, which would be enough to explain the death of feystep and the reversion of Elderin back into High Elves, but close enough for fey pact warlocks.
The platnium dragon Bahamut is not pleased with you and Torm is jsut over there shaking his head with a grin on his face....
the country could be from the future instead of another world or the entire populace of that area of chessenta could have been altered with magical energies turning them into genasi
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Woah! Blew my mind again with another great link!! (There's an extra "http" in there somewhere, though.)
Thank you!! m(_ _)m
They've certainly made "the Sundering" name worth the risk of cheesiness. Cheesiness sounds all taken care of now.
The tweaked angle on deities sounds intriguing, and I am floored at the stories & characters they are ready to share!
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Woah! Blew my mind again with another great link!! (There's an extra "http" in there somewhere, though.)
Thank you!! m(_ _)m
You're welcome, and thank you for pointing out the extra http (which is now fixed)
They've certainly made "the Sundering" name worth the risk of cheesiness. Cheesiness sounds all taken care of now.
The tweaked angle on deities sounds intriguing, and I am floored at the stories & characters they are ready to share!
I like the angle about deities too: canon won't establish anymore whether a deity is alive or not, allowing stories about their quest and followers to be told again in the most recent era, without the weight of a previously determined ultimate conclusion. Now none will be able to say things like X is dead.
I was wondering about this, it is a valid point, but what if one is an in-setting name and one isn't? For example, what if what the Elves call the Sundering is an in-setting name... but this new event, although the designers are calling it the Sundering (to evoke images of conjoined objects being split), what if the Sages of the Realms end up calling it something completely different?
Just to address the name... I mean really, how many of even the greatest non-elven sages would even be aware of the Sundering in reference to the elves? It's not like the evil pointy-eared bastards ever own up to their mistakes, much less ones that wiped out entire human civilizations and redrew a few maps. More likely a "I have no idea what you're talking about you round-eared heathen" would be the response to any questions, or if they're feeling really charitable you might get a "no comment" reply. So "The Sundering" really doesn't make that much of a difference to me. Besides, I usually associate it with White Wolf's Changeling: The Dreaming more than I ever do D&D or the Realms.
Thank you both for that, I hadnt really thought of it in terms of "in game", which is kinda funny cause im all the time chiding my players about not being "in the game" They use too much Meta-gaming, or They'll read some Drizzt novel and decide that they want to be Riders of Nesme or something and Ive got to tell them "ok look your character has never even heard of Nesme ok?" But yeah "in-game" they might have a different name for the Sundering (either one), Maybe the Elves even decided to use the name, maybe then everyone will forget all about that other Sundering. So yeah thanks you two, I think youve finally got me past the name, or How I Learned to Stop Complaining and Love the Sundering!
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Ahhhh ok so it DOES tie into the orginal Sundering, in a way, so all my complaining was for nothing!
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Ahhhh ok so it DOES tie into the orginal Sundering, in a way, so all my complaining was for nothing!
What else is new?
I like how WotC is using the original sundering with this sundering.
Damned pesky elves are good for something after all...
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Ahhhh ok so it DOES tie into the orginal Sundering, in a way, so all my complaining was for nothing!
What else is new?
I like how WotC is using the original sundering with this sundering.
Damned pesky elves are good for something after all...
The Sundering II: Beyond Sunder-dome! xD
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Ahhhh ok so it DOES tie into the orginal Sundering, in a way, so all my complaining was for nothing!
What else is new?
I like how WotC is using the original sundering with this sundering.
Damned pesky elves are good for something after all...
The Sundering II: Beyond Sunder-dome! xD
Actually, it's the Sundering III :P
With Returned Abier, I was disappointed writers didn't take it up and do a Novel there.
This.
I'd have bought a copy of such a book, especially if the novel was about the Dusk Ports along the Dragon Sea.
I hope the whole Laerakond/Returned Abeir continent statys in the Realms after all this Sundering business is said and done.
With Returned Abier, I was disappointed writers didn't take it up and do a Novel there.
This.
I'd have bought a copy of such a book, especially if the novel was about the Dusk Ports along the Dragon Sea.
I hope the whole Laerakond/Returned Abeir continent statys in the Realms after all this Sundering business is said and done.
Me too.
Also, I can't see any way for Anakul or Tymanther to go away without blowing them up or a retcon, so I doubt we'll see anything quite so simple as them disapearing and the nations that were there coming back.
Also, wonder if someone will kill some pesky liches and move thay back to what it was?
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
Leave it to Erik to make me far less worried about this whole thing, and far more excited.
This could be really, really cool.
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
So it seems the Sundering will primarily be focused on 1486 to possibly 1500+ DR. Interesting.
Also, I am definitely excited to hear that the gods are going to be shunted into the background from here on out. It's about time the designers realized that deities hogging the spotlight has not typically made for decent stories.
Another interesting thing to note - Erik openly admits that some of the 4E changes, like the adjustments to Cormyr, ended up knocking down strong female characters. So I would assume 5E will definitely present us with at least a few new ladies who are serious movers and shakers.
Also, I can't see any way for Anakul or Tymanther to go away without blowing them up or a retcon, so I doubt we'll see anything quite so simple as them disapearing and the nations that were there coming back.
Not to kill your hopes, but...LINK.
I think Erik might have let the cat out of the bag way too soon there.
I find Mesoamerican mythology to be quite cool, but that's just me.
I enjoy the mesoamerican mythology also. But that could have been added without the rehash of the age of exploration all over again. It was less magical and more just a reprint from a history book. It was almost like they ignored how the rest of the Realms and how the past influence those areas and magic.
The whole Horde thing turned me off back then also. And that came about around the same time, so I'm guessing some of the same people were involved.
I won't deny that was wasted potential. However, there's no reason why the setting can't have a second chance. If it's changed to better fit the Realms, not too many people will care. Heck, I'd welcome it. The Maztica game I experienced quite a few years back was very different from the book. The DM I had was wonderful and succeeded in blending it in with the Realms. It wasn't the history book mashed with the Realms, it felt natural. Sure, the "lore" was changed, but who cares? There's a lot of junk in the lore that deserves to be changed at your table. Since it was pretty much forgotten, there's an opportunity to do it right.
I liked it just because it really did have a different feel to it from the main continent. So traveling there was a lot more like traveling to another land back in Marco Polo's times. Strange and mysterious.
With Returned Abier, I was disappointed writers didn't take it up and do a Novel there. Seemed like a great place for a bit more freedom with creativity. And you could flesh out a Dragonborn companion to your main character (storyline of a group of humans trying to flee to the free cities, and a Dragonborn decides to help them, or even have a Dragonborn main character. Or a group striking out from Evermeet to scout out more for the security of their land, and running into disaster with the Dragon lands. Not only interesting novel ideas, but campaign ideas really.
I think there was someone playing a Dragonborn in every game I've played from when they introduced 4e, and that included countless Ecounters sessions with many, many different players. So they are popular from my experience.
To each their own. I didn't get that type of feel from it... Plus, is that not the explorer feel?
The POL fluff never stuck with me, hence we Returned Abeir never stuck. I was more than just a bit disgruntled to see the PoL/Dawn whatever stuff back in '08 and I'm still unsatisfied with it. Personally, I wish they made DDI articles for how the new races could have fit into Faerun and beyond.
I would post more about how just placing a new campaign world like Abeir into an established campaign world like the forgotten realms is hamfisted, but I would be just parroting most of what you already said.
Just to address the name... I mean really, how many of even the greatest non-elven sages would even be aware of the Sundering in reference to the elves? It's not like the evil pointy-eared bastards ever own up to their mistakes, much less ones that wiped out entire human civilizations and redrew a few maps. More likely a "I have no idea what you're talking about you round-eared heathen" would be the response to any questions, or if they're feeling really charitable you might get a "no comment" reply. So "The Sundering" really doesn't make that much of a difference to me. Besides, I usually associate it with White Wolf's Changeling: The Dreaming more than I ever do D&D or the Realms.
Thank you both for that, I hadnt really thought of it in terms of "in game", which is kinda funny cause im all the time chiding my players about not being "in the game" They use too much Meta-gaming, or They'll read some Drizzt novel and decide that they want to be Riders of Nesme or something and Ive got to tell them "ok look your character has never even heard of Nesme ok?" But yeah "in-game" they might have a different name for the Sundering (either one), Maybe the Elves even decided to use the name, maybe then everyone will forget all about that other Sundering. So yeah thanks you two, I think youve finally got me past the name, or How I Learned to Stop Complaining and Love the Sundering!
Damn, was hoping I'd make you cry or something. Guess that'll have to do.
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
From the link:
Also, and this is key: you are ENCOURAGED to prevent/ignore/retcon events that you don’t like. You should have plenty of material to run a game where the Time of Troubles never happened or the Spellplague happened in a different way (or not at all).
Really though this is what people have been doing with the realms for a very long time. They have been making it their own. WHich is why the cries about Lorenazis and those that did not want to read rich history rang hollow as a reason to rewrite the realms for 4e.
I don't think Dragonborn should be gone from the realms. There were Plenty of ways to bring them in the realms (Since there are continents on the map already there that never got coverage), and the ganasi have always been in the realms. Abeir, like the spell plague seemed a ham fisted way to make the realms work with the everythign is core battle cry.
Also, I can't see any way for Anakul or Tymanther to go away without blowing them up or a retcon, so I doubt we'll see anything quite so simple as them disapearing and the nations that were there coming back.
Not to kill your hopes, but...LINK.
I think Erik might have let the cat out of the bag way too soon there.
up then down then up then down again....
dammit.
...yay for [things that are totally not] retcons...
"We won't retcon them away, we'll just make them go "poof" in a flash of Ao magic and reconcile you with the idea that dragonborn and saurials are totally the same, somehow, and the world remembers that Tymanther and Anakul were there, so it's totally not like we're saying "screw you" to all of you that liked them! Why aren't you cheering for our magnanimous decision to not just reboot the setting to two seconds before Cyric killed Mystra and literally draw a hand flipping you off in the campaign book? "
...deep breath...
sorry. Hopefully, it's not so bad as all that.
I'm interested in what happens if Tymanther gets beamed back to Abeir.
Unther was described as being crushed underneath Tymanther when it basically crash-landed on/phased into Toril. I don't see how Unther can be restored when its cities and population were wiped off the face of Toril. As someone who never found Unther especially exciting, I hope that if they do end up removing Tymanther, they put something new and interesting there, rather than handwaving everything and going *poof - Unther wasn't actually destroyed, everybody only thought that but they never proved it so Unther is back and fine and ALL HAIL GILGEAM *.
We shall see.
A summary of the Candlekeep seminar about the future of the FR. Basically, it clarifies and summarizes all the info about the Sundering:
Candlekeep Presents: 25 Years of the Forgotten Realms.
From the link:
Also, and this is key: you are ENCOURAGED to prevent/ignore/retcon events that you don’t like. You should have plenty of material to run a game where the Time of Troubles never happened or the Spellplague happened in a different way (or not at all).
Really though this is what people have been doing with the realms for a very long time. They have been making it their own. WHich is why the cries about Lorenazis and those that did not want to read rich history rang hollow as a reason to rewrite the realms for 4e.
I don't think Dragonborn should be gone from the realms. There were Plenty of ways to bring them in the realms (Since there are continents on the map already there that never got coverage), and the ganasi have always been in the realms. Abeir, like the spell plague seemed a ham fisted way to make the realms work with the everythign is core battle cry.
As long as it's easier to do, I ain't complaining. Though, I pretty much solved that a ways back with... MORE CATACLYSMS (Or being part of an evil apocalyptic group of crazies interested in spawning the largest war in Toril.)
I think at the very least there’s room for those two nations to leave a great big obvious mark of their presence (and not just in the form of genasi and dragonborn staying behind) on whatever form Mulhorand and Unther take in the post-Sundering Realms.
Let’s face it: Mulhorand and Unther were cool, but they weren’t places people regularly set campaigns in. That’s why they were taken out in the post-Spellplague Realms in the first place.
WotC, please find some middle ground here.
For some reason though I liked Kara-Tur, I dunno I guess it seemed to have more of a fantasy element to me as opposed to being just ripped off of ancient chinese/japanese history.
But yeah youre right Kara-Tur was just as guilty as Maztica, but they had ninjas and samurais, which I always thought was way cooler than Aztecs or Mayans, so im sure thats why im able to fogive Kara-Tur so easily.
One problem with Tymanther and Akanul and even High Imaskar was they were little more then city states that claimed a huge nearly empty space, while Mulhorand and Unther were well developed.
Two Mulhorand and Unther were key parts in Realmslore. Maybe areas outside Mulhorand and Unther proper where founded by this empires, such as Thay and the Wizards Reach. Akanul and Tymather have real history in the,realms, thier roots are in Abier.
So count me in the Mulan camp.
Griping about 4E to the contrary, WotC was not afraid to change its mind on issues pertaining to the deities in the run up to the Spellplague, so perhaps the new 5E team of designers (which has not formally been put together yet; only the 5E novel team is—and has been—in place) ought to be greeted with a resounding NO! to talk of Tymanther and Akanul being removed.
I think at the very least there’s room for those two nations to leave a great big obvious mark of their presence (and not just in the form of genasi and dragonborn staying behind) on whatever form Mulhorand and Unther take in the post-Sundering Realms.
Let’s face it: Mulhorand and Unther were cool, but they weren’t places people regularly set campaigns in. That’s why they were taken out in the post-Spellplague Realms in the first place.
WotC, please find some middle ground here.
How out of all my years playing D&D did I miss WOTC/TSR's filing system for where your campaigns are set? I would have liked to add mine to the datapoints.
I remember playing in two Dexcon sessions with a DM that made his own adventure there. One of my legacy characters from old campaigns is from an ancient flavored mulhorrand campaign. I don't remember EVER filing my campaigns with the developers of FR to let them know where I campaigned. I have run campaigns with different flavors because the different areas of the realms let me do so. I did my Moonshae campaign, then I did my very long Damara campaign, followed by my Conanesque Thay. When I took an ancient history course I decided that I wanted to run an ancient themed campaign. it was 3rd edition by that time, and I decided to use Unther/Mulhorrand. It was great to be able to have a huge variety of flavors to set your campaigns in the same world. All those characters had ties to each other somehow.
THEN, players are told NOBODY plays in Mulhorrand so we will just get rid of it (or better the implied connotation by some players that if you played in a world inspired by the real world you were just uncreative, rather than exploring those historical tropes). Getting rid of those flavorful lands was a mistake, and a lot of resentment to the realms comes from those areas. Yes they should be kept along with Abeir, but bring back the realms and make Abeir separate. There is no novel legacy to worry about keeping it.
WHY is it acceptable to keep the new ham fisted dragonborn realms, and yet deny the lands that were already there and BELONGED there? Really I think the best is to treat Abeir like another world. Let people explore those realms in the Abeir world.
I really wish I filed my campaigns with the WOTC/TSR databanks like everyone else did. Maybe then they would have known all the various places I wrote campaigns in the realms.
Why can't we say how D&D is 'supposed' to be played, yet we can assume to know which areas other groups campaigned with?
Griping about 4E to the contrary, WotC was not afraid to change its mind on issues pertaining to the deities in the run up to the Spellplague, so perhaps the new 5E team of designers (which has not formally been put together yet; only the 5E novel team is—and has been—in place) ought to be greeted with a resounding NO! to talk of Tymanther and Akanul being removed.
I think at the very least there’s room for those two nations to leave a great big obvious mark of their presence (and not just in the form of genasi and dragonborn staying behind) on whatever form Mulhorand and Unther take in the post-Sundering Realms.
Let’s face it: Mulhorand and Unther were cool, but they weren’t places people regularly set campaigns in. That’s why they were taken out in the post-Spellplague Realms in the first place.
WotC, please find some middle ground here.
How out of all my years playing D&D did I miss WOTC/TSR's filing system for where your campaigns are set? I would have liked to add mine to the datapoints.
I remember playing in two Dexcon sessions with a DM that made his own adventure there. One of my legacy characters from old campaigns is from an ancient flavored mulhorrand campaign. I don't remember EVER filing my campaigns with the developers of FR to let them know where I campaigned. I have run campaigns with different flavors because the different areas of the realms let me do so. I did my Moonshae campaign, then I did my very long Damara campaign, followed by my Conanesque Thay. When I took an ancient history course I decided that I wanted to run an ancient themed campaign. it was 3rd edition by that time, and I decided to use Unther/Mulhorrand. It was great to be able to have a huge variety of flavors to set your campaigns in the same world. All those characters had ties to each other somehow.
THEN, players are told NOBODY plays in Mulhorrand so we will just get rid of it (or better the implied connotation by some players that if you played in a world inspired by the real world you were just uncreative, rather than exploring those historical tropes). Getting rid of those flavorful lands was a mistake, and a lot of resentment to the realms comes from those areas. Yes they should be kept along with Abeir, but bring back the realms and make Abeir separate. There is no novel legacy to worry about keeping it.
WHY is it acceptable to keep the new ham fisted dragonborn realms, and yet deny the lands that were already there and BELONGED there? Really I think the best is to treat Abeir like another world. Let people explore those realms in the Abeir world.
I really wish I filed my campaigns with the WOTC/TSR databanks like everyone else did. Maybe then they would have known all the various places I wrote campaigns in the realms.
Why can't we say how D&D is 'supposed' to be played, yet we can assume to know what areas other groups campaigned with?
I might have to agree. These changed were battered in because the vocal minority decried these sub-settings as places people don't go to (Complaining about shows you don't like/don't watch)... Plus, it felt too distant for them supposedly. And thus, PoL was slammed and nuked into the Realms. For those of us who enjoyed those sub-settings and other things in the Realms that were dashed, we were tossed aside. I will admit, I am still very passionate about said issue.
I just hope that they leave it ambiguous enough to let us happily ignore Abeir and utilize the lost elements without a nod toward the Spellplague. Also, this should mean you can happily continue onward with the Realms as they are, spellplague, abeir, dragonborn and all.
On that note, with multiple era support, maybe Wizards can get their act together and try to fill in the gaping time holes that are still existent and try to bridge the time gap. So keep the Abeir continents in the blue at least so if you want them, you can smash 'em back down! If you don't want them, send your horde of violent, angry players after it or ignore it and replace it with what you feel is proper.
If the Realms can come across as a modular experience to play YOUR setting (Not Wizards') without tearing it in half, dropping retcon, or other wonderful actions, then I am happy and I'm sure people on the flip side are happy too.
Oh man, yeah the Hordelands, almost forgot about them, gee thanx for bringin that up Stig. The thing that really got me about the Horde boxed set was all the cardstock illustrations, they looked like they came right out of a text book on Mongolia or something.
But yeah youre right Kara-Tur was just as guilty as Maztica, but they had ninjas and samurais, which I always thought was way cooler than Aztecs or Mayans, so im sure thats why im able to fogive Kara-Tur so easily.
Those card stock items were an attempt to recreate the paintings in the OSPREY manuals military guides which are useful for model painters and quite informative about history. Unfortunately they failed in that attempt, as the OSPREY manuals are A+ quality, but I appreciate the nod to the books.
For myself I loved the hordelands, Kara tur, Zakhara, and Maztica. Many game sessions were spent discussing with players about which one of those to use for a new campaign when the time arose to start one. We decided on Maztica which lasted 5 or six levels.
My mullhorand campaign was informed by many of the classes in Zakhara. Anything egyptian appropriate like Mamluks I included.
These changed were battered in because the vocal minority decried these sub-settings as places people don't go to.
Not necessarily.
Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zhakara...all cool places. They--like Mulhorand and Unther--just weren't prime stomping grounds for DMs to set games in.
This doesn't mean no games were set there, it just means in terms of popularity of sourcebook sales and campaign usage, these locations were in the back of the line, standing behind the northern half of the Sword Coast, the Moonsea, the Heartlands, the Dalelands and Cormyr, etc.
Like you, I think WotC has the room to keep a little of each of Mulhorand and Unther, and hope they do that in some manner.
Oh man, yeah the Hordelands, almost forgot about them, gee thanx for bringin that up Stig.
No problem. I'm also available to pour lemon juice in paper cuts as well.
The thing that really got me about the Horde boxed set was all the cardstock illustrations, they looked like they came right out of a text book on Mongolia or something.
But yeah youre right Kara-Tur was just as guilty as Maztica, but they had ninjas and samurais, which I always thought was way cooler than Aztecs or Mayans, so im sure thats why im able to fogive Kara-Tur so easily.
Heh, yeah those cards were kinda neat, really reminded me of those Osprey books too. But to be honest, I never was really all that fascinated by asian mythology and legend, so Kara-Tur just never really stood out to me. But my thing was if someone else wanted to, that was cool by me, so none of them really bothered me all that much.
Well, that news is awkward if it's true.
I'm interested in what happens if Tymanther gets beamed back to Abeir.
Unther was described as being crushed underneath Tymanther when it basically crash-landed on/phased into Toril. I don't see how Unther can be restored when its cities and population were wiped off the face of Toril. As someone who never found Unther especially exciting, I hope that if they do end up removing Tymanther, they put something new and interesting there, rather than handwaving everything and going *poof - Unther wasn't actually destroyed, everybody only thought that but they never proved it so Unther is back and fine and ALL HAIL GILGEAM *.
We shall see.
If the two were transposed*, Unther could come back... after 100 years as part of the Tymanchibar Empire in Abeir, with a mixed population of Abeirians and Faerunians. Likewise, there could be population swapping in the process, leaving a mix of Dragonborn born in either world, on both sides. If that makes any sense.
Anyway, something vaguely along those lines could be cool.
*Perhaps their gods managed to use the dimensional transferance already taking place to reach into to toril and grab a portion of Unther's population, and move them to the land area vacated by the part of Tymanchibar that became known as Tymanther.
*Perhaps their gods managed to use the dimensional transferance already taking place to reach into to toril and grab a portion of Unther's population, and move them to the land area vacated by the part of Tymanchibar that became known as Tymanther.
That's an idea I've been playing around with too.
What if one or more of the Mulhorandi/Untheric pantheon sacrificed themselves during the Spellplague to wisk away the population, but left some of their divine essence in each of these people?
The idea being if there's no divine pantheon in Abeir, then the survivors can start one.
I'd like to see how that's progressed after a century. Plus if Unther returns, perhaps its people would try to open portals back to Tymanchibar and link the two worlds--assuming Ao doesn't permanently wall things off.
Plus, is that not the explorer feel?
Not when it is just a unoriginal and in some ways offensive rehash of our history. There is nothing new or explorer feel about that. I play games to play something that isn't part of reality, not to reinact it.
My guess is High Imaskar survives in Skyhome and surrounding area when Mulhorandi revives. They'll be war, but a stalemate occurs
Rinse repeat like this area of FR has done for years.
Can't actually have anyone win, a country fall and be destroyed. No.
Its like Greenwoods obsession with Elminster (his trying to appear like him is a bit sad imo), and not moving on.
Things change... well except in FR even when there are RSEs.
And no I'm not a fan of RSEs all the time. But I'm also not a fan of things being so static.
My guess is High Imaskar survives in Skyhome and surrounding area when Mulhorandi revives. They'll be war, but a stalemate occurs
Rinse repeat like this area of FR has done for years.
Can't actually have anyone win, a country fall and be destroyed. No.
Its like Greenwoods obsession with Elminster (his trying to appear like him is a bit sad imo), and not moving on.
Things change... well except in FR.
Perhaps you missed the spellplague in 2008. That was the time when the developers arbitrarily changed the realms. I think that fits the definition of change pretty well. They even ADDED a continent to keep everything with core. Surely that was change?
I'd be interested to hear your theory about how Ed Greenwood is 'not moving on'. Perhaps forgotten realms is not the right campaign setting for your tastes.
People just getting sorely annoyed or disappointed, when first reading that 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and seeing "POOF! All of your favourite deities/countries are gone, and heres some Dragonborn and Genasi taking over a bunch of places. Thanks for the money, bye!"
Perhaps you missed the spellplague in 2008. That was the time when the developers arbitrarily changed the realms.
And yet here we are with it returning the way it was as if it didn't happen.
They can claim it isn't a reset all they want. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is likely at least a water born foul.
I'd be interested to hear your theory about how Ed Greenwood is 'not moving on'.
Making an essentially god like character in Elminster... even with this so called finding replacements, so he can rest bit seems more like the fakery of before where he's not involved, but he really is behind almost everything again.
Perhaps forgotten realms is not the right campaign setting for your tastes.
I think "you can shove it," is an apt reaction to that kind of comment.
Also, and this is key: you are ENCOURAGED to prevent/ignore/retcon events that you don’t like. You should have plenty of material to run a game where the Time of Troubles never happened or the Spellplague happened in a different way (or not at all).
Making me think Returned is gone.
The problem is that many FR fans didn't like how FR changed in 4E, not the fact that there was change.
People just getting sorely annoyed or disappointed, when first reading that 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and seeing "POOF! All of your favourite deities/countries are gone, and heres some Dragonborn and Genasi taking over a bunch of places. Thanks for the money, bye!"
Aaand that's the reason why Greenwood's Elminster's Realms book will be the first Realms purchase I've made since 2007/early 2008. I skinned over the 4th book and besides using the Spellplague mechanics as a sub for tainted evil from "Heroes of Horror", I have no use for it. But, since the Spellplague mechanics are on DDi... I have no need for those books.
Perhaps you missed the spellplague in 2008. That was the time when the developers arbitrarily changed the realms.
And yet here we are with it returning the way it was as if it didn't happen.
They can claim it isn't a reset all they want. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is likely at least a water born foul.
Yet it did indeed change. Changing back to the way it was is a good thing.
I'd be interested to hear your theory about how Ed Greenwood is 'not moving on'.
Making an essentially god like character in Elminster... even with this so called finding replacements, so he can rest bit seems more like the fakery of before where he's not involved, but he really is behind almost everything again.
This leads me to beleive you are not all that familiar with the previous Realms. He was not behind everything, though that is a common misconception so you can be forgiven for that. in fact if you go into the source books you will find little about him except in the Dalelands. He was very active in the novels because there needs to be characters to write about. Other than that he was really only background.
Perhaps forgotten realms is not the right campaign setting for your tastes.
I think "you can shove it," is an apt reaction to that kind of comment.
Well from the sounds of it you do not like the creator, the characters, or the theme of the realms. It very well may not be to your tastes and that is OK, I for one do not like Eberron, and if someone told me that campaign world was not to my tastes, I would simply react with 'your right.' SO what exactly should I 'shove'. It seems a bit of an over reaction. Something for you to explore perhaps.
i am excited for the first time in a long while to see the Realms return to what made them great
Ed's new Elminster books are really great. They are already showing an interesting transition back to the way things were, so they should be a good read for you, I am loving them.
Let me just say the Menzoberranzan book is a great first step showing this return. It is completely systems neutral. No crunch except for making Drow houses and determining Worth or Station, all of which can be used with BECMI through 4e. There are individual spotlights on time periods for the houses in which they may have done something significant.
The system neutrality of Menzoberranzan is a good indication they have started to listen.
Yes, the Realms is always changing, thats one of the things I love about it, makes it seem more alive, knowhatimean?
Except most Realms fans are rather conservative and traditional about their setting on various levels of course.
Changing back to the way it was is a good thing.
Back to the same old rigid no change system.
Well from the sounds of it you do not like the creator, the characters, or the theme of the realms.
Flat out lie on you part based purely on assumption and exaggeration.
Yes, the Realms is always changing, thats one of the things I love about it, makes it seem more alive, knowhatimean?
Except it really isn't, and lets call it what it really is for the most part except for window dressing.
Yes, the Realms is always changing, thats one of the things I love about it, makes it seem more alive, knowhatimean?
Except it really isn't, and lets call it what it really is for the most part except for window dressing.
Im not sure I follow.
So you think the Realms as it is now is the same as it was when the orginal box set was released? Cause ive seen all kindsa changes, and im not talking about just the map.
Back to the same old rigid no change system.
Compare the grey box to the 2nd edition box. And then compare the 2nd edition box to the 3rd edition realms. You will see the change is quite evident there. It is quite hard to call it anything but change. It is rather clear.
Flat out lie on you part based purely on assumption and exaggeration.
Hence why i said "from the sounds of it".
I laid it out as a possibility. PERHAPS does not indicate a definite fact. There was no lie there.
Yes, the Realms is always changing, thats one of the things I love about it, makes it seem more alive, knowhatimean?
Except most Realms fans are rather conservative and traditional about their setting on various levels of course.
It is rather simple for this. When I want different I campaign in a different campaign setting. I prefer Vanilla ice cream. Occasionally I like to try other flavors. If Vanilla ice cream suddenly changed to a flavor other than Vanilla, I would be pretty mad.
The 4e changes were not organic and did not follow with what came before. That is why so many did not like those changes.
The 4e changes were not organic and did not follow with what came before. That is why so many did not like those changes.
Some of the changes felt very forced, but some, like Waterdeep getting bigger, and Undermountain being settled made sense.
The 4e changes were not organic and did not follow with what came before. That is why so many did not like those changes.
Some of the changes felt very forced, but some, like Waterdeep getting bigger, and Undermountain being settled made sense.
Ofcourse there were changes like any other edition switch that WERE organic.
Will it revert back to the same? Yea, for the most part.
Will Mystra come back and probably be BETTER THAN EVER!? Yea, probably.
Will they bring back (by this, I mean detail because we surely didn't lose as many as people claim to think) the multiple of Deities that all have the same basic flavor but different toppings? Yea, most likely
These are aspects a LOT of Realms fans like and it appears that the developers are giving a nod to them with the hopes that they'll come back in masse (I don't really see it, personally). So my request, before the Sundering, is to detail the ever-living crap out of the Post Spellplague Realms NOW, give us a LOT of material in areas that didn't see much spotlight (Elfharrow, the Moonsea, Returned Abeir, Akanûl, Chult as it is) because this is probably the last time we'll get an opportunity for this information. And with this information, we can use/discard at our leisure without having to conform to the "New-Old" Forgotten Realms.
I'd also like to say that, for as much as people claim they like "natural change", it's my opinion that what they're saying is that the changes should be SO insignificant to the overall setting as to be completely ignored overall. The death of King Azoun in Death of a Dragon novel was 'BIG' when the book was released, but what actually changed about the setting? It didn't weaken Cormyr. It didn't change trade with Sembia. It didn't embolden the Shadovar/Empire of Shade. It was a character death (in a good way, if such a way exists) and it changed a teeny-tiny bit. Yet a lot of people reacted strongly to that change.
So, IMO, traditionalist Realms fans like change so long as it can be ignored without the overall setting being morphed by the event. Or basically change stuff that no one cares about and it's all good and gives the perception of an "evolving world".
These are aspects a LOT of Realms fans like and it appears that the developers are giving a nod to them with the hopes that they'll come back in masse (I don't really see it, personally). So my request, before the Sundering, is to detail the ever-living crap out of the Post Spellplague Realms NOW, give us a LOT of material in areas that didn't see much spotlight (Elfharrow, the Moonsea, Returned Abeir, Akanûl, Chult as it is) because this is probably the last time we'll get an opportunity for this information. And with this information, we can use/discard at our leisure without having to conform to the "New-Old" Forgotten Realms.
FWIW, I agree without hesitation. Before the Sundering occurs the designers (and freelancers) should devote as much time humanly possible to detailing the 4R Realms. Heaven only knows I wish that they had done so before now. The first year of DDI FR output (speaking as a subscriber for pretty much the entire run of 4E) as, frankly, a joke. They should have come out of the gates with articles covering most of the areas and details that the FRCG/FRPG blatantly didn't. I don't know why they didn't do this then, but I hope that they do it now.
I'd also like to say that, for as much as people claim they like "natural change", it's my opinion that what they're saying is that the changes should be SO insignificant to the overall setting as to be completely ignored overall. The death of King Azoun in Death of a Dragon novel was 'BIG' when the book was released, but what actually changed about the setting? It didn't weaken Cormyr. It didn't change trade with Sembia. It didn't embolden the Shadovar/Empire of Shade. It was a character death (in a good way, if such a way exists) and it changed a teeny-tiny bit. Yet a lot of people reacted strongly to that change.
I can't speak for other people, but in my case "natural change" is not synonymous with "insignificant change". Taking your example, the death of Azoun IV did seem like a big change to the setting. Cormyr, in my opinion, was indeed weakened. With the Steel Regent and her utter inability to grasp the concept of diplomacy? Queen Fee with most of the stuffing knocked out of her? Politically I would say it changed Cormyr a great deal. I am interested in how the event might have emboldened the Empire of Shade though, if memory serves (and I just checked it on the FR chronology) Azoun IV died in 1371, and the city of Shade didn't reappear until 1372. So surely, the Shadovar were being bold enough during that time, by bringing their lost city back to the Realms at all.
Saying that some of the changes brought in with the Spellplague (and, worse, the time-jump) did not seem to follow a natural narrative is not to dismiss the event, or even its scale, entirely. And any characterization of those statements in those terms is overly simplistic and flawed.
So, IMO, traditionalist Realms fans like change so long as it can be ignored without the overall setting being morphed by the event. Or basically change stuff that no one cares about and it's all good and gives the perception of an "evolving world".
And IMO, I disagree with your assessment of "traditionalist Realms fans".
These are aspects a LOT of Realms fans like and it appears that the developers are giving a nod to them with the hopes that they'll come back in masse (I don't really see it, personally). So my request, before the Sundering, is to detail the ever-living crap out of the Post Spellplague Realms NOW, give us a LOT of material in areas that didn't see much spotlight (Elfharrow, the Moonsea, Returned Abeir, Akanûl, Chult as it is) because this is probably the last time we'll get an opportunity for this information. And with this information, we can use/discard at our leisure without having to conform to the "New-Old" Forgotten Realms.
FWIW, I agree without hesitation. Before the Sundering occurs the designers (and freelancers) should devote as much time humanly possible to detailing the 4R Realms. Heaven only knows I wish that they had done so before now. The first year of DDI FR output (speaking as a subscriber for pretty much the entire run of 4E) as, frankly, a joke. They should have come out of the gates with articles covering most of the areas and details that the FRCG/FRPG blatantly didn't. I don't know why they didn't do this then, but I hope that they do it now.
Agreed about the DDI content. But I don't want to make it seem that ALL the DDI articles were bad or too little. For example, the one about Cormyr's legacy and it's history was extreamly well received, even by non-Spellplague fans. I personally enjoyed the Skullport article and the one about Vaasa and the Warlock Knights (as well as the Eminence of Araunt). But we needed MORE and regional books would've helped a lot. Something akin to the Neverwinter supplement would be super frickin' fantastic if they set it for Returned Abeir and the changed areas too.
I'd also like to say that, for as much as people claim they like "natural change", it's my opinion that what they're saying is that the changes should be SO insignificant to the overall setting as to be completely ignored overall. The death of King Azoun in Death of a Dragon novel was 'BIG' when the book was released, but what actually changed about the setting? It didn't weaken Cormyr. It didn't change trade with Sembia. It didn't embolden the Shadovar/Empire of Shade. It was a character death (in a good way, if such a way exists) and it changed a teeny-tiny bit. Yet a lot of people reacted strongly to that change.
I can't speak for other people, but in my case "natural change" is not synonymous with "insignificant change". Taking your example, the death of Azoun IV did seem like a big change to the setting. Cormyr, in my opinion, was indeed weakened. With the Steel Regent and her utter inability to grasp the concept of diplomacy? Queen Fee with most of the stuffing knocked out of her? Politically I would say it changed Cormyr a great deal. I am interested in how the event might have emboldened the Empire of Shade though, if memory serves (and I just checked it on the FR chronology) Azoun IV died in 1371, and the city of Shade didn't reappear until 1372. So surely, the Shadovar were being bold enough during that time, by bringing their lost city back to the Realms at all.
And yet, Cormyr didn't suffer strife or internal conflit (as far as novels and supplements went). Cormyr prevailed and went on, as it ususally does, being a strong conutry despite a strong setback. But my fault about the city of Shade, I thought it was approx the same time as it's return to Faerûn. I guess my problem lies in that we didn't actually SEE the weakening of the country. Not really in novel form and not really in any form of regional supplemental material. Even with the Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure, Cormyr was still pretty darn strong and was able to devote a good portion to removing the threat of Shar from under their nose. You could make a claim that the walling off and officially calling Wheloon a prison city is a sign of weakening, but I'm not entirely sure and I felt it worked well with the events of the super adventure.
Saying that some of the changes brought in with the Spellplague (and, worse, the time-jump) did not seem to follow a natural narrative is not to dismiss the event, or even its scale, entirely. And any characterization of those statements in those terms is overly simplistic and flawed.
But a lot of people do dismiss it outright, regardless of what the changes were. Many times people would just vent about something so long as it said 1479 DR, post-Spellplague, or 4E without even bothering to read the actual content. I'm not saying everyone does this, but it did happen and was more prevalent through most of post-Spellplague's lifespan.
So, IMO, traditionalist Realms fans like change so long as it can be ignored without the overall setting being morphed by the event. Or basically change stuff that no one cares about and it's all good and gives the perception of an "evolving world".
And IMO, I disagree with your assessment of "traditionalist Realms fans".
That's ok, I'm not using it in a deragative fashion (at least, it's not my intention). My assessment of 'traditionalist Realmsian fans" comes from my observation of people who:
1). Has an insane hatred for anything and everything of the post-Spellplague Realms without bothering to even read it. Regardless of content.
2). Cites the OGB as the holiest of holy Realms texts ever.
3). Hates Drizzt for making drow (espically scimitar wielding, drow ranger clones) popular.
4). Hates the Return of Shade or the reclaimation of Myth Drannor because those take way the cool elements of the Realms.
5). Thinks Mystra should be the only one who can have 'Chosen'. Anything else is just bad writing/design/favortism
6). Believes that there needs to be 100+ deities for the Realms to have good diversity.
Those are the 6 things I could grab off the top of my head that many fans of the "old school' Realms adhere to as law.
Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
Really? He is easily the most incompetent whiner of the gods (and with these gods that's something). He was so incompetent at intrigues (while it was still his portoflio) that he reduced himself by one divine tier while everything was still going as he planed and before even reading the Cyrinishad.
Bhaal never did anything interesting either. He had his abyssmal failure against a demigoddess in the Moonshaes and a couple of lines about the dark three and then he was already dead. Anything in novels about Bhaal that I am missing?
Myrkul is too stereotypical "evil scary dead god", I prefer a deity of death who commands his followers to hunt down and destroy undead rather than desecrate the graves they should be protecting.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" class="mceContentBody " contenteditable="true" />That's ok, I'm not using it in a deragative fashion (at least, it's not my intention).
I do not think you were derogatory.
I would definitely consider myself a traditionalist for the realms. So I will address the points.
My assessment of 'traditionalist Realmsian fans" comes from my observation of people who:
1). Has an insane hatred for anything and everything of the post-Spellplague Realms without bothering to even read it. Regardless of content.
HAD an insane hatred. This was mostly before I started reading waht YOU and Eric Scott DeBrie had to say on Candlekeep. I then got a DDI subscription and explored the lore. It is quality, but lacking. you are absolutely correct in your assesment that people for AD&D and 3rd edition have more lore than they could probably make campaigns from. 4e realms does not have that level of lore.
That was part of the gripe 'traditional' fans had. The Lore was trimmed down. People that wanted background for adventures were hunting down pre 4e sources.
Fortunately the 4e realms evolved into a setting with people wanting the same amount of lore. I still to this day beleive there was a development error, in which the developers beleived people did not play in the realms because they were overwhelmed. That I think was a reason for some of the cutting of the realms. I think the Realms has survived that though. The way the realms is created, it COMPELS its players to seek lore. A mad development decision could not kill that.
2). Cites the OGB as the holiest of holy Realms texts ever.
Certainly not. Though it is a great root from which to grow. I vastly prefer the 2nd edition realms, followed by the 3rd.
3). Hates Drizzt for making drow (espically scimitar wielding, drow ranger clones) popular.
No way no HOW. Drizzt and Menzoberranzan, and the underdark to this day is one of my favorite aspects of the Realms. Before Drizzt was created my high school group was playing Dark Elf Parties in the flavor of Salvatore. RA Salvatore seemed to know what those fans of Dark Elves wanted. It was just everything falling perfectly into place. EVERYTHING done in Drizzt origins story, was just one moment after another of YES THAT IS IT!
If Drizzt's characterization was not dealt with so skillfully, he never would have become as popular as he did. He DID indeed spawn clones, but in my games it was easy enough to make them notdrizzt dark elves.
4). Hates the Return of Shade or the reclaimation of Myth Drannor because those take way the cool elements of the Realms.
Both of these changes were written supremely well. I liked Return of Shade LESS than I liked Myth Drannor, but my campaign was moving towards Myth Drannor's reclamation. Those changes improved my Dalelands campaigns.
They were big changes but they were easy to swallow, because the seeds for them were laid out before (Myth Drannor) more than shade.
I felt the changes brought on with the Spellplague, were clumsy and arbitrary, a way to make the rules parallel. It seemed to me more of a mechanical decision than a story decision. (I'm over the spellplague, and I am fine with it being a historical event.)
5). Thinks Mystra should be the only one who can have 'Chosen'. Anything else is just bad writing/design/favortism
I think that other authors writing of other chosen would be lame, but I have a very prominent character who is the chosen of Mielikki in my game. He shares that honor with one other, Drizzt Do'Urden. I have created templates for several other god's chosen in my games.
6). Believes that there needs to be 100+ deities for the Realms to have good diversity.
Not for diversity. But many gods is a good thing. All of our ancient civilizations had the minor gods that no one but Classics Scholars would really know. I think the Time of Troubles made things a little lame with the competition for worshipers. Still I like the deities of the Forgotten Realms.
When I switched to Pathfinder, I switched to Golarion as well. It did not last long. Golarion is a great world and was pretty much the spiritual inheritor of the Forgotten Realms, but it missed alot from the realms. the Gods were one thing. They are all interesting in Golarion, but I liked the FR Hierarchy, and minor gods. Also the underdark. A good analogy of the Golarion underdark to the FR Underdark is like comparing SHOPRITE cola to COCA COLA. The taste resembles the underdark, but it is not nearly as good.
What I like about the realms is that it is indeed a Kitchen Sink setting. If I wanted to run a CONAN campaign, I can practically do it in Thay, THesk, and the Hordelands. I can do an asian themed campaign, and I can easily do a middle eastern campaign. If I want to make a campaign inspired by ancient history, I can do that too. The benefit is all of the characters in all of these different campaigns have a relationship to each other. Like the different Star Trek series. DS9 is very different from Next Generation, but there is a relationship and crossover available. I suppose the Conan Stygian feel is still available in Vaasa.
See the thing with people preferring a campaign setting, is they like it for what it does. It is very easy for a person to switch a campaign setting to try somethign new. If I want Mage tech I will play Eberron, I don't want it coming into the realms. I am OK with the campaign setting have small localized changes, but the flavor of the campaign world should not change. Spellplague seemed to be a change for RULES sake instead of a change for STORY sake. That should never happen or you get stupid things like every assassin's life force being absorbed to explain away why Assassins are not in the new edition. That is a clumsy story element.
That is what I mean when I say that the Spellplague realms seemed to be an unnatural advancement. MAny of the the story elements were clumsy, and really I do not think it was at all creative. magic unravelled already in the time of troubles. So they used it as a mechanism AGAIN.
Abeir should have just been created as its own campaign setting, I bet the lore would have even been better. Instead tehy needed it as a method to bring the 'everything is core' philosophy to the FR.
Now I will say the story guys have done a good job cleaning up the mess, even throughout the life of 4e. Those story guys were not responsible for the poor development decisions.
I think this time the correct method is occuring. The writers are making the story, and the developers will work from there. The transition will work much better this time around.
Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
Really? He is easily the most incompetent whiner of the gods (and with these gods that's something). He was so incompetent at intrigues (while it was still his portoflio) that he reduced himself by one divine tier while everything was still going as he planed and before even reading the Cyrinishad.
Have you read the Erevis Cale trilogy by any chance, or The Twilight War trilogy? Mask learned a lot from that failure during the ToT and reinvented himself. He hasn't been an incompetent whiner in quite some time. I'm not saying he necessarily deserves to reclaim Intrigue, but he's certainly come a long way.
Myrkul is too stereotypical "evil scary dead god", I prefer a deity of death who commands his followers to hunt down and destroy undead rather than desecrate the graves they should be protecting.
Now this, I can agree with. I didn't care one bit for Myrkul's disinterest in the "sanctity" of death. With so many undead running around, you would have thought Myrkul was trying to get himself replaced as a death god. Kelemvor is intimidating to the normal man or woman in his own way; death is scary enough to make people fear and respect him without tacking on a malevolent persona that seeks to exploit death.
Have you read the Erevis Cale trilogy by any chance, or The Twilight War trilogy?
Yes, and frankly I blame them for the "latest surge of Mask fans".
Mask learned a lot from that failure during the ToT and reinvented himself.
Well Mask really didn't do much in this books. He managed to attract a competent priest, nice for him. But his cleric did basically everything while Mask hardly appeared at all (though I liked how he rewarded Cale by allowing him stab him with a dagger in a backalley)
But if Cale would have been the cleric of any other deity, a lot of Mask's new fans would now be fans of that deity.
Personally in all I am not a big fan of the Cale novels, they're just "too much" for me (with the quasi-deity fighting the epic heroes who brought along an army of undead and a contingent of clerics and a dragon-riding paladin ...) and powerlevels jumping around inconsistently is a pet peeve of mine (which for me really ruined the ending).
I like "smaller novels" about less powerfull people doing things on smaller scales with much less "special effects" (thus the announcements about future novels pleases me very much)
Mask learned a lot from that failure during the ToT and reinvented himself.
Well Mask really didn't do much in this books. He managed to attract a competent priest, nice for him. But his cleric did basically everything while Mask hardly appeared at all (though I liked how he rewarded Cale by allowing him stab him with a dagger in a backalley)
That's kind of the point. He stayed in the background and operated from the shadows, like any secretive thief god should*. He dipped his toes in the water before jumping in, which was something he didn't seem to know to do during the ToT, and considering the implications of his designs, it seems he has a head for long-term strategy as well. So yeah, I'd say he has changed for the better. YMMV.
But if Cale would have been the cleric of any other deity, a lot of Mask's new fans would now be fans of that deity.
That is certainly true, but that's pretty much the case with anything - books, movies, sports teams, bands, etc. You'll always have fans who hop on board with whatever is in the spotlight. I'm pretty sure Drizzt is responsible, to varying extents, for the majority of drow fans out there.
*Actually, that's how every deity should act, in a perfect Realms, but the novels have not always been kind to me.
Eh, I've been a fan of Mask since before 2E. One of my friends also regularly played worshippers of Mask back in the early 90's.
I concurr I think Mask is pretty awesome, and I am remiss in not reading any of Erebus Cale. I still like Mask.
These are aspects a LOT of Realms fans like and it appears that the developers are giving a nod to them with the hopes that they'll come back in masse (I don't really see it, personally). So my request, before the Sundering, is to detail the ever-living crap out of the Post Spellplague Realms NOW, give us a LOT of material in areas that didn't see much spotlight (Elfharrow, the Moonsea, Returned Abeir, Akanûl, Chult as it is) because this is probably the last time we'll get an opportunity for this information. And with this information, we can use/discard at our leisure without having to conform to the "New-Old" Forgotten Realms.
FWIW, I agree without hesitation. Before the Sundering occurs the designers (and freelancers) should devote as much time humanly possible to detailing the 4R Realms. Heaven only knows I wish that they had done so before now. The first year of DDI FR output (speaking as a subscriber for pretty much the entire run of 4E) as, frankly, a joke. They should have come out of the gates with articles covering most of the areas and details that the FRCG/FRPG blatantly didn't. I don't know why they didn't do this then, but I hope that they do it now.
While I won't deny that I hate the current changes and refuse use them, I agree with this statement. Fans of this current stuff should get the content they deserve! Either via DDI or what have you, fill in the blanks for Spellplague Realms. Come on Wizards, you still have PLENTY of time
Eh, I've been a fan of Mask since before 2E. One of my friends also regularly played worshippers of Mask back in the early 90's.
I concur I think Mask is pretty awesome, and I am remiss in not reading any of Erebus Cale. I still like Mask.
Yeah, I've never read an Erevis Cale novel, either, and really don't have any clue what that's all about. I just really like Mask and look forward to his return in 5E.
Or least having Intrigue taken from him, and given back to Mask.
Really? He is easily the most incompetent whiner of the gods (and with these gods that's something). He was so incompetent at intrigues (while it was still his portoflio) that he reduced himself by one divine tier while everything was still going as he planed and before even reading the Cyrinishad.Bhaal never did anything interesting either. He had his abyssmal failure against a demigoddess in the Moonshaes and a couple of lines about the dark three and then he was already dead. Anything in novels about Bhaal that I am missing?
Myrkul is too stereotypical "evil scary dead god", I prefer a deity of death who commands his followers to hunt down and destroy undead rather than desecrate the graves they should be protecting.
I've already agreed with you about Myrkul in this thread, so I'm not sure what your point is there.
Bhaal: Have you played the Baldur's Gate games?
Mask: I'm not sure I can politely express the level to which I disagree. :P
Kelemvor is intimidating to the normal man or woman in his own way; death is scary enough to make people fear and respect him without tacking on a malevolent persona that seeks to exploit death.
I love Kelemvor. Perfect god of death, IMO.
That being said, I'd still like to see Myrkul return to the fold as a god. That doesn't mean he has to be god of the dead, as he had plenty of other portfolios which he can still take up once he returns, nevermind other portfolios which were previously taken but which are now available. Those portfolios being Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, and Wasting. He could then reclaim Autumn from Mielikki and grab up Undeath which was once Velsharoon's but no longer as he's dead.
IMO, the best way to handle things would be to bring back Lathander as well and make Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul the three sun gods of Faerun. Lathander is the god of the dawn, Amaunator the god of the midday sun, and Myrkul the god of dusk. Think about it. Lathander would be the god of new beginnings, of creation, of change. Amaunator is the god of order, of stability, of the status quo. Myrkul would be the god of decay, of corruption, of entropy. Each god plays off the other. Lathander creates something new and is fully invested in that new thing, but eventually gets bored and moves on to something else. Amaunator takes that thing under his wing and tries to maintain it as it is. Myrkul destroys what Amaunator protects. And from the ashes of what Myrkul has destroyed, Lathander builds anew. Now THAT, I think, would be an interesting take on the concept of the sun god.
Not to mention that Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal have an interesting history together. It'd be nice if both Myrkul and Bhaal were to be brought back so that that shared history with Bane could be better explored.
IMO, the best way to handle things would be to bring back Lathander as well and make Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul the three sun gods of Faerun. Lathander is the god of the dawn, Amaunator the god of the midday sun, and Myrkul the god of dusk. Think about it. Lathander would be the god of new beginnings, of creation, of change. Amaunator is the god of order, of stability, of the status quo. Myrkul would be the god of decay, of corruption, of entropy. Each god plays off the other. Lathander creates something new and is fully invested in that new thing, but eventually gets bored and moves on to something else. Amaunator takes that thing under his wing and tries to maintain it as it is. Myrkul destroys what Amaunator protects. And from the ashes of what Myrkul has destroyed, Lathander builds anew. Now THAT, I think, would be an interesting take on the concept of the sun god.
Words fail to describe how awesome I find this.
where are your allies Cyric?? are you enjoying your imprisonment upon your supreme outhouse?
Bhaal is coming for you so called suprmeme god.... and you will know what it means to be murdered in your own home.
-Lost cleric of Bhaal
Bhaal: Have you played the Baldur's Gate games?
Where he was dead and did nothing? ***king many being to produce many children doesn't really make him a good lord of dead in my eyes. If his portfolio would have been fertility that would have proven him to be a good at his portfolios, but as far as murder is concerned Cyric has many more notches on his belt than Bhaal.
That being said, I'd still like to see Myrkul return to the fold as a god. That doesn't mean he has to be god of the dead, as he had plenty of other portfolios which he can still take up once he returns, nevermind other portfolios which were previously taken but which are now available. Those portfolios being Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, and Wasting. He could then reclaim Autumn from Mielikki and grab up Undeath which was once Velsharoon's but no longer as he's dead.
That would be fine. I would also love to see him once again picking up Bane's strings and play him as his puppet like he did before
Cyric..... Cyric..... where are you Cyric, are you afraid of the dark???
where are your allies Cyric?? are you enjoying your imprisonment upon your supreme outhouse?
Bhaal is coming for you so called suprmeme god.... and you will know what it means to be murdered in your own home.
-Lost cleric of Bhaal
Thank you for calling the surpreme murder hotline. Cyric is currently too busy murdering greater powers, please call back after your deity managed to at least keep a demipower down. Thank you very much for calling and never stop dreaming, one day your deity might even manage to murder something more menancing than a bug
Glad to see support for Kelemvor.IMO, the best way to handle things would be to bring back Lathander as well and make Lathander, Amaunator, and Myrkul the three sun gods of Faerun. Lathander is the god of the dawn, Amaunator the god of the midday sun, and Myrkul the god of dusk. Think about it. Lathander would be the god of new beginnings, of creation, of change. Amaunator is the god of order, of stability, of the status quo. Myrkul would be the god of decay, of corruption, of entropy. Each god plays off the other. Lathander creates something new and is fully invested in that new thing, but eventually gets bored and moves on to something else. Amaunator takes that thing under his wing and tries to maintain it as it is. Myrkul destroys what Amaunator protects. And from the ashes of what Myrkul has destroyed, Lathander builds anew. Now THAT, I think, would be an interesting take on the concept of the sun god.
Words fail to describe how awesome I find this.
Yep, agreed. This is an awesome solution.
But anyway, apparently all the gods will be coming back (Which I'm mostly fine with, although I was happy to have Tyr gone). In which case I'd like to see some of the gods and their portfolios sorted out like so.
LATHANDER (GREATER GOD)
Neutral Good
Portfolios: Athletics, Birth, Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Self-Perfection, Spring, Vitality, Youth
AMAUNATOR (GREATER GOD)
Lawful Neutral
Portfolios: Bureaucracy, Contracts, Law, the Midday Sun, Order, Rulership
MYRKUL (GREATER GOD)
Neutral Evil
Portfolios: Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, Undeath, Wasting
CYRIC (GREATER GOD)
Chaotic Evil
Portfolios: Lies, Murder, Strife
If Leira's coming back then she needs her Portfolios of Deception and Illusion back. And I personally prefer Mask to have Intrigue. Cyric is perfectly fine with those three Portfolios as they suit his nature. They're certainly more than enough to justify his remaining a Greater God. Every time someone commits a murder, every time someone lies, and every time there's any strife or discord Cyric gains power, and that's before you even take his worshippers into account, so even with just those three portfolios he still retains a great deal of power.
LEIRA (GOD)
Chaotic Neutral
Portfolios: Deception, Illusion
MASK (GOD)
Neutral Evil
Portfolios: Intrigue, Shadows, Thievery, Thieves
BHAAL (GOD)
Lawful Evil
Portfolios: Assassination, Blood, Poison, Violence
I wouldn't mind seeing Bhaal as Lord of Murder but there can only be one, and if you take that away from Cyric then he loses a Portfolio which is necessary to his character. So Bhaal could instead be the god of assassination and violence. He derives power from a lot of the same things which Cyric does, but not in the same amounts, hence his being a weaker god.
TORM (GREATER GOD)
Lawful Good
Portfolios: Duty, Honor, Justice
TYR (GOD)
Lawful Good
Portfolios: Judgment, Loyalty, Obedience
If Tyr comes back I don't want to see him get the Portfolio of Justice back. It fits Torm so perfectly. And Torm is the better choice as the Greater God. So give Tyr a lesser form of the Justice Portfolio, like Judgment, as well as Torm's old Portfolios of Loyalty and Obedience. Put Tyr into the role of retired mentor, like Jergal, who performs lesser duties and advises, rather than leads. The Forgotten Realms needs a heroic Lawful Good Paladin God and Torm is by far the more exciting choice of the two. For one, he's an actual native Realmsian God rather than an interloper. He and his church have the history of opposing evil, whereas Tyr has always been standoffish and stodgy. He's the one who offers a heroic quest to his followers (the search for Chalsembyr), and that idea's far more interesting coming from a Greater God than coming from a lesser god. On top of which, there's a very real possibility that Torm knew Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal in their mortal lives when he was also a mortal. Play up that history. Let's see an enmity which existed when they were men continue on into their godhoods, an enmity which resulted in their battle at Tantras with both their deaths and which continues to their day, and which Torm can more adequately fight now that he's on a more even playing field with Bane, being a Greater God himself.
Is there a source for that? If so, mind pointing it out? I'd be interested in knowing if that was true.
No, no official source, I just made it up, sorry, but with 4e revealing that this god is really an aspect of that god and everything it would make sense, or at the very least both Zehir and Bhaal would be aspects of the same god, whoever that would be.
If Bhaal murders anyone it should be Zehir. With all the gods which were culled from the Realms with the advent of 4E why in the world did they feel the need to add Zehir? Who the **** is Zehir?!? Kill him and let Bhaal take some of his portfolios.
But anyway, apparently all the gods will be coming back (Which I'm mostly fine with, although I was happy to have Tyr gone). In which case I'd like to see some of the gods and their portfolios sorted out like so.
LATHANDER (GREATER GOD)
Neutral Good
Portfolios: Athletics, Birth, Creativity, Dawn, Renewal, Self-Perfection, Spring, Vitality, Youth
AMAUNATOR (GREATER GOD)
Lawful Neutral
Portfolios: Bureaucracy, Contracts, Law, the Midday Sun, Order, Rulership
MYRKUL (GREATER GOD)
Neutral Evil
Portfolios: Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, Undeath, Wasting
CYRIC (GREATER GOD)
Chaotic Evil
Portfolios: Lies, Murder, Strife
If Leira's coming back then she needs her Portfolios of Deception and Illusion back. And I personally prefer Mask to have Intrigue. Cyric is perfectly fine with those three Portfolios as they suit his nature. They're certainly more than enough to justify his remaining a Greater God. Every time someone commits a murder, every time someone lies, and every time there's any strife or discord Cyric gains power, and that's before you even take his worshippers into account, so even with just those three portfolios he still retains a great deal of power.
LEIRA (GOD)
Chaotic Neutral
Portfolios: Deception, Illusion
MASK (GOD)
Neutral Evil
Portfolios: Intrigue, Shadows, Thievery, Thieves
BHAAL (GOD)
Lawful Evil
Portfolios: Assassination, Blood, Poison, Violence
I wouldn't mind seeing Bhaal as Lord of Murder but there can only be one, and if you take that away from Cyric then he loses a Portfolio which is necessary to his character. So Bhaal could instead be the god of assassination and violence. He derives power from a lot of the same things which Cyric does, but not in the same amounts, hence his being a weaker god.
TORM (GREATER GOD)
Lawful Good
Portfolios: Duty, Honor, Justice
TYR (GOD)
Lawful Good
Portfolios: Judgment, Loyalty, Obedience
If Tyr comes back I don't want to see him get the Portfolio of Justice back. It fits Torm so perfectly. And Torm is the better choice as the Greater God. So give Tyr a lesser form of the Justice Portfolio, like Judgment, as well as Torm's old Portfolios of Loyalty and Obedience. Put Tyr into the role of retired mentor, like Jergal, who performs lesser duties and advises, rather than leads. The Forgotten Realms needs a heroic Lawful Good Paladin God and Torm is by far the more exciting choice of the two. For one, he's an actual native Realmsian God rather than an interloper. He and his church have the history of opposing evil, whereas Tyr has always been standoffish and stodgy. He's the one who offers a heroic quest to his followers (the search for Chalsembyr), and that idea's far more interesting coming from a Greater God than coming from a lesser god. On top of which, there's a very real possibility that Torm knew Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal in their mortal lives when he was also a mortal. Play up that history. Let's see an enmity which existed when they were men continue on into their godhoods, an enmity which resulted in their battle at Tantras with both their deaths and which continues to their day, and which Torm can more adequately fight now that he's on a more even playing field with Bane, being a Greater God himself.
I despise Torm with a passionate hate, but even setting that aside, Tyr is just a better god in general, and should be the greater god, if we're going back to that silly hierarchy thing.
1) Is a native to the Forgotten Realms, as opposed to an interloper deity, and achieved godhood before Tyr's arrival.
2) Was most likely mortal at the same time as Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal, and may have a link to them.
3) Fought Bane to the death in the harbor of Tantras.
4) Was the only god in the Time of Troubles to live up to his ideals and because of that was subsequently resurrected after his death.
5) Teamed up with Mystra, Oghma, and Mask to combat Cyric.
6) His church is noted as actively combating the forces of evil gods like the Church of Bane and the Zhentarim.
7) He originates from the ancient and forgotten nation of Chalsembyr which, if discovered by a worshipper, holds the promise that that worshipper will himself be elevated to a god.
For all those reasons and more Torm should absolutely be a Greater God, and if it's a choice between the two, then he should be the Greater God while Tyr, who except for the Procession of Justice has never been much of a champion of the Lawful Good cause, can stay back and play the role of the judge in the court of law that he prefers to play as opposed to an active participant in the battle between good and evil.
Yeah, but Zehir is just an aspect of Bhaal.
Zehir was a mistake, literally (and I am using "literally" in the sense of "literally").
He appeared in a FR computer game so WotC simply slipped him into the campaign guide. Horrible. Serpent Kingdoms did a marvellous job of establishing an interesting pantheon for the serpent races and Zehir gets forced into the picture because a computer game designer didn't know the difference between FR and Core.
Zehir makes appeances in that book, directly to the main character so at least we get a bit more of a feel for him and how he now fits into the realms. Remember Peniscilen was a mistake too, now its saves lives.
Personally I'd give Zehir Jungles or the underdark as a Portfolio and drop him down to lesser diety status and make him serve Set or Sseth. Maybe I put together a list of Gods and what I think thier portfolios should be.
One thought that has occurred to me is the if the Gods in 5e are going to be more distant then catogories like Demigod, Greater God ect.... Won't be listed, won't be needed.
Zehir makes appeances in that book, directly to the main character so at least we get a bit more of a feel for him and how he now fits into the realms. Remember Peniscilen was a mistake too, now its saves lives.
Personally I'd give Zehir Jungles or the underdark as a Portfolio and drop him down to lesser diety status and make him serve Set or Sseth. Maybe I put together a list of Gods and what I think thier portfolios should be.
One thought that has occurred to me is the if the Gods in 5e are going to be more distant then catogories like Demigod, Greater God ect.... Won't be listed, won't be needed.
If we're using a stale loaf of bread as the measure, then yeah, I guess Tyr is better as he's closest to being just like a stale loaf of bread. :P But better in the general sense? While that's obviously subjective, I don't see how anybody can seriously argue that he's better. His most notable actions in the Forgotten Realms have been getting mutilated more than once, ruining Tymora, and killing Helm. That's hardly something to hang your hat on as far as being a better character goes. Torm, on the other hand...
1) Is a native to the Forgotten Realms, as opposed to an interloper deity, and achieved godhood before Tyr's arrival.
2) Was most likely mortal at the same time as Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal, and may have a link to them.
3) Fought Bane to the death in the harbor of Tantras.
4) Was the only god in the Time of Troubles to live up to his ideals and because of that was subsequently resurrected after his death.
5) Teamed up with Mystra, Oghma, and Mask to combat Cyric.
6) His church is noted as actively combating the forces of evil gods like the Church of Bane and the Zhentarim.
7) He originates from the ancient and forgotten nation of Chalsembyr which, if discovered by a worshipper, holds the promise that that worshipper will himself be elevated to a god.
For all those reasons and more Torm should absolutely be a Greater God, and if it's a choice between the two, then he should be the Greater God while Tyr, who except for the Procession of Justice has never been much of a champion of the Lawful Good cause, can stay back and play the role of the judge in the court of law that he prefers to play as opposed to an active participant in the battle between good and evil.
Torm is also the prime example of what makes LG Paladins Bad. His church might as well be evil, as far as I'm concerned. They're dangerous zealots that walled off a forest because it had gnolls and lycanthropes, allowing the population of elves therein to be massacred, when the gnolls and lycans weren't even creating any direct threat. That single act, AFAIC, damns the entire church, and the god that chooses to still grant power to those responsible.
Tyr is exactly what a god of justice should be. A fair and unbiased judge. He's not a novel character, he's a god. The gods that can't take a step back on just govern their portfolios, rather than fiddling with the world, should be lesser gods.
all that said, the whole demi/god/greater hierarchy is, to me, completely stupid, and should go.
One thought that has occurred to me is the if the Gods in 5e are going to be more distant then catogories like Demigod, Greater God ect.... Won't be listed, won't be needed.
i hope so.
Mystra and Helm are where it's at
Torm is also the prime example of what makes LG Paladins Bad. His church might as well be evil, as far as I'm concerned. They're dangerous zealots that walled off a forest because it had gnolls and lycanthropes, allowing the population of elves therein to be massacred, when the gnolls and lycans weren't even creating any direct threat. That single act, AFAIC, damns the entire church, and the god that chooses to still grant power to those responsible.
I’m not familiar with that incident, but that’s ludicrous reasoning on your part. By that measure EVERY god should be damned, because all of them have followers who commit terrible acts. Just look at Helm’s worshippers in Maztica, or the number of evil mages who worship Mystra. Tyr more than likely also had his fair share of worshippers who committed terrible acts. Singling Torm out in that regard is absolutely ridiculous.
The more reasonable thing to look at is the actions of the individual god. And Torm’s actions make him the quintessential LG god. As opposed to Tyr, who’s done what aside from killing Helm?
Tyr is exactly what a god of justice should be. A fair and unbiased judge.
First off, that’s Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. Secondly, justice isn’t about establishing procedure and following it to the letter no matter what. Real justice is about arriving at the morally just result, because the rules and the laws themselves may be unjust. Tyr’s so focused on the Lawful part that he doesn’t pay attention to the Good part of his alignment.
He's not a novel character, he's a god. The gods that can't take a step back on just govern their portfolios, rather than fiddling with the world, should be lesser gods.
ALL the gods work to advance their ethos, no matter their rank. That doesn’t mean that they swoop down on Faerun like superheroes and supervillains, but that they lead their church into doing what they want done. Bane, Cyric, and Shar are actively pushing for a version of Faerun which fits their vision. Why should the good Greater Gods be any exception? The only problem is that the primary Lawful Good god from 3E and before doesn’t do that. He does nothing.
You grossly misunderstand the roles of Greater Gods and Lesser Gods. It’s the Lesser Gods who’re pigeonholed into smaller roles. Like Jergal, who serves as a scribe. It’s the Greater Gods who should be doing more. If all Tyr is doing is just sitting around playing as judge then he should be a Lesser God, whereas a proactive god like Torm should be the Greater God.
all that said, the whole demi/god/greater hierarchy is, to me, completely stupid, and should go.
Not at all. Some gods are simply more important than others. That’s always been the case, in D&D and real world mythology. Are we really to believe that Deneir is on the same plane of power and importance as Bane?
Torm is also the prime example of what makes LG Paladins Bad. His church might as well be evil, as far as I'm concerned. They're dangerous zealots that walled off a forest because it had gnolls and lycanthropes, allowing the population of elves therein to be massacred, when the gnolls and lycans weren't even creating any direct threat. That single act, AFAIC, damns the entire church, and the god that chooses to still grant power to those responsible.
Tyr is exactly what a god of justice should be. A fair and unbiased judge. He's not a novel character, he's a god. The gods that can't take a step back on just govern their portfolios, rather than fiddling with the world, should be lesser gods.
IIRC Tyr's paladins in the novel Thornhold behaved just as badly without losing powers
Torm is also the prime example of what makes LG Paladins Bad. His church might as well be evil, as far as I'm concerned. They're dangerous zealots that walled off a forest because it had gnolls and lycanthropes, allowing the population of elves therein to be massacred, when the gnolls and lycans weren't even creating any direct threat. That single act, AFAIC, damns the entire church, and the god that chooses to still grant power to those responsible.I’m not familiar with that incident, but that’s ludicrous reasoning on your part. By that measure EVERY god should be damned, because all of them have followers who commit terrible acts. Just look at Helm’s worshippers in Maztica, or the number of evil mages who worship Mystra. Tyr more than likely also had his fair share of worshippers who committed terrible acts. Singling Torm out in that regard is absolutely ridiculous.
The more reasonable thing to look at is the actions of the individual god. And Torm’s actions make him the quintessential LG god. As opposed to Tyr, who’s done what aside from killing Helm?
Tyr is exactly what a god of justice should be. A fair and unbiased judge.First off, that’s Lawful Neutral, not Lawful Good. Secondly, justice isn’t about establishing procedure and following it to the letter no matter what. Real justice is about arriving at the morally just result, because the rules and the laws themselves may be unjust. Tyr’s so focused on the Lawful part that he doesn’t pay attention to the Good part of his alignment.
He's not a novel character, he's a god. The gods that can't take a step back on just govern their portfolios, rather than fiddling with the world, should be lesser gods.ALL the gods work to advance their ethos, no matter their rank. That doesn’t mean that they swoop down on Faerun like superheroes and supervillains, but that they lead their church into doing what they want done. Bane, Cyric, and Shar are actively pushing for a version of Faerun which fits their vision. Why should the good Greater Gods be any exception? The only problem is that the primary Lawful Good god from 3E and before doesn’t do that. He does nothing.
You grossly misunderstand the roles of Greater Gods and Lesser Gods. It’s the Lesser Gods who’re pigeonholed into smaller roles. Like Jergal, who serves as a scribe. It’s the Greater Gods who should be doing more. If all Tyr is doing is just sitting around playing as judge then he should be a Lesser God, whereas a proactive god like Torm should be the Greater God.
all that said, the whole demi/god/greater hierarchy is, to me, completely stupid, and should go.Not at all. Some gods are simply more important than others. That’s always been the case, in D&D and real world mythology. Are we really to believe that Deneir is on the same plane of power and importance as Bane?
Clearly we disagree about the nature of gods to a point where there is no middle ground.
Of course, I've tried to avoid being condescending to you about it, so it would have been nice if you could have done the same.
as to hierarchies, you missed the point. The gods aren't all equal, but the effect of not all gods being equal is accomplished just fine in RL religions without a set in stone hierarchy of greater gods, gods and demi gods. And they're better for it.
And after killing Helm, Tyr adhered to the precepts of Justice, even to his own demise. That is a god of justice. One who neither puts good above law, nor law above good, but understands that Justice must be absolute and impartial, or it literally does not exist.
There is no such thing as a just King, unless that King is also subject to the law, to use an example that should be fairly familiar to most readers of fantasy and/or history.
Torm is also the prime example of what makes LG Paladins Bad. His church might as well be evil, as far as I'm concerned. They're dangerous zealots that walled off a forest because it had gnolls and lycanthropes, allowing the population of elves therein to be massacred, when the gnolls and lycans weren't even creating any direct threat. That single act, AFAIC, damns the entire church, and the god that chooses to still grant power to those responsible.
Tyr is exactly what a god of justice should be. A fair and unbiased judge. He's not a novel character, he's a god. The gods that can't take a step back on just govern their portfolios, rather than fiddling with the world, should be lesser gods.
IIRC Tyr's paladins in the novel Thornhold behaved just as badly without losing powers
Hey, I said it's a problem with Paladins.
There's a certain type of Paladin that, AFAIC, is evil pretending to be good.
Hey, I said it's a problem with Paladins.
There's a certain type of Paladin that, AFAIC, is evil pretending to be good.
Nope, you ascribed that behavior to the god they worshipped, not their class. So why is it that evil acts performed by Torm’s followers reflect on him, but evil acts performed by Tyr’s followers don't reflect on him? For a guy who argues against double standards, you sure employ them a lot.
Of course, I've tried to avoid being condescending to you about it, so it would have been nice if you could have done the same.
I would have if you didn’t flat out make stuff up to argue your point. You’re making all these claims about Torm being practically an evil god when absolutely nothing in the lore supports that whatsoever. Like your ridiculous quote over on Candlekeep where you say that "He is the paladin that leaves the village to it's fate because it somehow brought the plague of undead on itself by ignoring the gods or allowing both good and evil churches to have temples there" WHEN NOTHING LIKE THAT HAS EVER BEEN DEPICTED AT ALL IN THE LORE. Hell, the opposite has been shown, like with Tantras, where he opted to save them all despite the corruption he witnessed there. Hell, it's even been shown that he wants to redeem Mask. If you want to have a discussion then discuss what actually happened or the characters which actually exist in the setting, and not your made-up fantasies.
as to hierarchies, you missed the point. The gods aren't all equal, but the effect of not all gods being equal is accomplished just fine in RL religions without a set in stone hierarchy of greater gods, gods and demi gods. And they're better for it.
Not being codified doesn’t mean that the hierarchy doesn’t exist. Real life people don't have character levels, either, and yet in D&D we know that one guy's a Level 20 Fighter and another guy's a Level 12 Fighter. It's a game, and things like that are helpful. That doesn't mean the gods should be statted up (They shouldn't be), but their relative importance to each other IS important.
And after killing Helm, Tyr adhered to the precepts of Justice, even to his own demise. That is a god of justice.
See, here’s an example of your just making stuff up. His death had NOTHING AT ALL to do with Helm’s death. He didn’t submit himself to judgment over that one. He killed Helm, took a weeping Tymora with him, and that was it. His death was completely unrelated to those events.
One who neither puts good above law, nor law above good, but understands that Justice must be absolute and impartial, or it literally does not exist.
There is no such thing as a just King, unless that King is also subject to the law, to use an example that should be fairly familiar to most readers of fantasy and/or history
And that's the problem. Tyr puts law above good every time.
Hey, I said it's a problem with Paladins.
There's a certain type of Paladin that, AFAIC, is evil pretending to be good.Nope, you ascribed that behavior to the god they worshipped, not their class.
I did both, if you'd actually read my post.
And then I said that Torm is basically one of those Paladins, but a god, and thus I despise him.
The rest of your post is completely worthless, so I won't waste my time.
And then I said that Torm is basically one of those Paladins, but a god, and thus I despise him.
The rest of your post is completely worthless, so I won't waste my time.
Translation: "I don't have a leg to stand on so therefore I'll bow out before I make a greater fool of myself."
Torm has never been portrayed as anything of the sort. That you despise a fictional character on a personal level is one thing, and pretty weird. But that you despise one for behavior which has never been depicted in print, and has even shown to be behaving in a completely opposite manner to how you claim he acts, is just downright bizarre.
Jokes aside: I'm loving the passion rising again in the FR community.
My god can beat up your god.
Jokes aside: I'm loving the passion rising again in the FR community.
My god and you god sitting by the fire
my god telling your god going to set your flag on fire.......
oh now I feel old again.
And then I said that Torm is basically one of those Paladins, but a god, and thus I despise him.
The rest of your post is completely worthless, so I won't waste my time.
lol You couldn't hope to translate me, kid. You clearly haven't been reading, if you seriously think those things. Whatever, your inability to see isn't my problem, especially when you act the way you do. For a worthier person, I might bother.
I have been reading you. I just haven't been reading anything that supports anything you've said. You say he's the sort of Paladin that's evil pretending to be good, "that leaves the village to it's fate because it somehow brought the plague of undead on itself by ignoring the gods or allowing both good and evil churches to have temples there", so where are examples of this? If you're right then surely you can point to a single example which supports your point. Did it happen in Tantras? Did it happen in Prince of Lies? Is this mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, or Faiths & Avatars? Does Prayers From the Faithful make mention of Torm directing his followers to leave villagers to be killed by the undead because they had a church of an evil god in their village alongside churches of good gods? If he's actually evil and is only pretending to be good, then how is it that all his official game stats list him as Lawful Good? If he's such a corrupt example of a Paladin, while Tyr is a perfect representation of a Paladin (Tyr himself is a Level 20 Paladin), then why did Tyr keep Torm in his service? Why was Torm a member of the Triad alongside Tyr and Ilmater, two other Lawful Good gods? So where's the evidence to support your conjecture that Torm is, in fact, evil?
How is Torm an evil god based on the actions of his followers, even though A) Realms gods aren't omniscient, and can't be aware of the actions of all their followers all the time, B) 4E Paladins no longer have alignment requirements to maintain their powers, and C) Is no longer able to strip them of their powers even if he wanted to, while you defend Tyr as a paragon of virtue when his Paladins committed unsavory acts in Thornhold, during 3E, when those Paladins had to be Lawful Good to maintain their power and Tyr was very much capable of stripping their power from them? How is it that Torm is guilty for the actions of his followers, even though he has no way to remove their powers from them, while Tyr is innocent of the crimes committed by his followers, even though he's fully able to strip them of their powers?
As for your claim that Torm is a god "that leaves the village to its fate because it somehow brought the plague of undead on itself by ignoring the gods or allowing both good and evil churches to have temples there", you may not have read Tantras, but I have. And the Torm which is portrayed there doesn't fit that description at all. Chapter 15, The Tablet of Fate, Torm first berates Tenwealth for the corruption of his church, saying that had he known of the things they were doing that he would've burned that temple to the ground. He didn't harm or hurt anyone, though. Immediately after a messenger comes in and warns him of the approaching Zhent fleet led by the Avatar of Bane, a 50 foot tall giant wading through the waters on foot. Now, if Torm behaved the way you believe him to behave, he would've abandoned the city of Tantras in order to teach them a lesson. After all, if his personality is as you say, and he'll condemn an entire village to death because some of them keep a temple to an evil god, then how much more likely is he to let a city burn because they personally offended him?
Except that's not what happened. What did happen was that Torm went out to face the Avatar of Bane in single combat and died to protect the lives of the people of Tantras. If he were a paragon of evil, as you claim, then he would've abandoned the city. If that's what he was like then he would've taken the Tablet of Fate which he possessed and, rather than intending to return it to Lord Ao, he would've kept it for himself. The Torm which is in the actual published works and the one which you're posting about don't have a single thing in common at all. I'm frankly dumbfounded that you came to that conclusion, and I can only assume that that's how they play things in your home campaign. Your home campaign, however, doesn't represent genuine lore.
Tyr doesn't need to be perfect, all I've been pointing out is that Torm is the exemplar of Paladin extremism, and is one of many annoyingly interfering gods. Tyr stands back and judges things like a god, instead of acting like a super powerful player character.
Torm is a great example of what's long been wrong with the FR gods in general.
One last note: if Torm was less terrible before 4e, when he was not a greater god, then by all means, reset to pre-4e realms status, when he was less crappy, and put Tyr back where he belongs.
And Tyr is the gorram embodiment of Justice without exception. He questioned Ao's punishment of all the gods for a few gods' actions, because it was unjust, and lost an eye over it. He lost his hand in an analogue to the story from Norse myth, which is another act of putting justice above even himself.
Oh, please, Torm would have fought Bane in Tantras even if it would have meant the death of the whole of Tantras, because he faced Bane, and he's a Paladin.
Ok, so once again, on what do you base this off of? Where do you get this idea that he doesn't value human life? Again, I'm asking you for citations, and you don't seem to be able to provide any. As far as I can tell the Torm you're referring to is one which only exists in your personal fan-fiction and not any published Forgotten Realms lore.
Tyr doesn't need to be perfect, all I've been pointing out is that Torm is the exemplar of Paladin extremism
You've said so, but you have yet to be able to provide a specific example of Torm that demonstrates that he's "evil pretending to be good." Not one. So if you're right, then where are these examples? Why is it that in all the years I've visited this forum, Candlekeep, and others, that you're the one and only poster that believes this? Do you know something that the writers at WotC don't know? Because all of them seem to think that he's Lawful Good, given that they keep statting him up that way.
Incidentally, you realize that Tyr's a Paladin too, right? They're both 20th-Level Paladins according to their stats in Faiths and Pantheons.
and is one of many annoyingly interfering gods. Tyr stands back and judges things like a god, instead of acting like a super powerful player character. Torm is a great example of what's long been wrong with the FR gods in general.
Ok, let's get this straight. You criticize Torm for the actions of his followers in the 4E Realms and NOT stopping them, and then you criticize him because he's too active? And if he acts like a super-powerful player character, then where are examples of that? Point to the novel, boxed set, or game supplement which mentions Torm zipping down to Faerun and solving all of Faerun's problems. That was the plotline of Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, but it was Mystra and Kelemvor who were doing that sort of thing, not Torm. So again, provide examples.
One last note: if Torm was less terrible before 4e, when he was not a greater god, then by all means, reset to pre-4e realms status, when he was less crappy, and put Tyr back where he belongs.
Nope, Torm's just fine. The Realms is far better off with Torm as a Lawful Good Greater God overseeing the Triad than it is with Tyr, the god of lawyers, judges, and magistrates. That's a job which Tyr can easily do as a Lesser God or even as an Exarch. He doesn't need to be a Greater God to fulfill that role. Torm, however, is a god who's willing to confront the likes of Bane, Cyric, and Shar, and deserves to be on a plane where he can match them. That and he's just a far more interesting character, with a more interesting church, history, and he's an all-around better god for Lawful Good adventurers. If the game were called Lawyers & Litigation then, maybe, I'd agree with you that Tyr should come back as a Greater God.
And Tyr is the gorram embodiment of Justice without exception. He questioned Ao's punishment of all the gods for a few gods' actions, because it was unjust, and lost an eye over it. He lost his hand in an analogue to the story from Norse myth, which is another act of putting justice above even himself.
Oh, please, Tyr would have question Ao's authority even if doing so meant it guaranteed the expulsion of all the gods, because he would've selfishly viewed it as an usurpation of his power, and he's a Paladin.
Huh, see how that works? Every negative criticism which you level against Torm based on his being a Paladin is equally valid against Tyr because he's also a Paladin. Really, though, it seems as if that every criticism you have about Torm revolves around "He's a Paladin", and then you ascribe every negative stereotype you have of Paladins to him. Why him and not Tyr? They're both Paladins. Is it because Torm is the Patron of Paladins? Because your criticism isn't based on anything that's actually happened in any of the books or novels. Once again, what happens in your home game is not representative of genuine Realms lore. Just because your DM has gods zipping about fighting crime and your fellow player Paladins commit horrible atrocities ingame, that's not reflected in the lore.
EDIT: Actually, I wonder what will become of Bahamut once Tyr returns. I can't exactly see them booting the god of good dragons; that wouldn't be a wise move. Good deities need to stick together and all that. Triad might need a new name.
No reason they can't all share the same roof. Remember, the old Triad used to share the same plane with Helm and Siamorphe. The House of the Triad had five gods, but only Tyr, Ilmater, and Torm counted as part of the Triad. Likewise, when Helm returns, he still won't count as part of the Triad. My personal hope for the organization of Celestia is as follows, with the top three being the actual Triad:
Torm (LG; Greater God): Duty, Honor, Justice
Bahamut (LG; God): Good Dragons, Wind, Wisdom
Ilmater (LG; God): Endurance, Martyrdom, Perseverance, Suffering
Helm (LN; God): Guardians, Protection, Protectors
Tyr (LN; God): Judgment, Loyalty, Trust
Siamorphe (LN; Exarch): Nobility, Nobles, Rightful Rule of Nobility
Nobanion (LG; Exarch): Good Beasts, Lions and Feline Beasts, Royalty
The problem with bringing back every single god, though, is that some of them picked up portfolios which others no longer possessed or which would make sense for others. For instance, the Portfolios of Law and Order would make perfect sense for Tyr, but they used to belong to Amaunator. Does he still possess them? According to the 4E Realms, he's just god of the Sun, that's it. Will each god only have one Portfolio going into 5E? Or will he reclaim all the Portfolios which he was supposed to possess back in the old Netheril boxed set?
In some cases it's easy to divest the deities of some of their portfolios in order to make room for others. For instance, it'd be alright to take Deception, Illusion, and Intrigue away from Cyric and give them to a resurrected Leira and Mask because Cyric would still have Lies, Murder, and Strife, and those three Portfolios are more than enough to define who and what Cyric is. But some gods, like Tyr and Amaunator, cover a lot of the same ground, so how to give them workable portfolios without having them repeat? Maybe Tyr can take Law while Amaunator keeps Order? Well, at the very least they could always give Tyr some of his Portfolios from Deities & Demigods, some of which are unused in the Realms (Courage and Trust are unclaimed, as far as I know). Or they could give him Torm's old unused Portfolios of Loyalty and Obedience.
The Triad should also be equals, whoever they are.
Now, I didn't dislike Torm all that much before he came back after the ToT, and I'll admit that some of my dislike may come from the tone of writing about him, rather than concrete occurances, and the feeling that the massacre in the 4e CG was condoned at the highest levels of the church, and thus, yes, IMO, on him.
Before that, in the long long ago, he was said to teach Tyr to temper his judgement with mercy.
Take him back to that, and a Torm, Helm, Ilmater Triad could be cool, with Tyr serving Helm, in recognition that he never should have doubted him, or something. More than my feelings on Torm, I want to see Tyr and Helm back, and Helm be a god of great importance.
New idea:
Helm could be made the Guardian of the Tablets, and thus of the comsic order/balance/something fundemental and epic like that. Basically, Helm could become the god Cyric looks over his shoulder for before plotting to disrupt the balance in his own favor.
I have a compromise - Ilmater leads the Triad.
EDIT: Actually, I wonder what will become of Bahamut once Tyr returns. I can't exactly see them booting the god of good dragons; that wouldn't be a wise move. Good deities need to stick together and all that. Triad might need a new name.
Nah, Helm.
or, see my other ideas. :DThe Triad should also be equals, whoever they are.
It’s a triangle. Two points at the bottom, one at the top.
Now, I didn't dislike Torm all that much before he came back after the ToT, and I'll admit that some of my dislike may come from the tone of writing about him, rather than concrete occurances
So now it’s the “tone”? I thought he was just like the evil Paladin who pretends to be good “that leaves the village to its fate because it somehow brought the plague of undead on itself by ignoring the gods or allowing both good and evil churches to have temples there”? Can we take this as an admission, then, that your dislike isn’t based on any facts or published material whatsoever?
and the feeling that the massacre in the 4e CG was condoned at the highest levels of the church, and thus, yes, IMO, on him
If that’s on him then the actions of the Tyrite Paladins in Thornhold are on Tyr and the actions of the Helmite explorers in Maztica are on Helm, and those actions are far worse than what was printed in the 4E Realms book about Elturgard, since at least those Tormites didn’t actually massacre anyone themselves. Again, you’re blaming the god for the actions of the worshippers. Do you see anywhere in that entry where Torm himself gave the order, had any knowledge of the order, or even has any direct hand in the running of the church? One imagines, though, that if he did that you’d then criticize him for “acting like a super powerful player character” and mark that as “a great example of what's long been wrong with the FR gods in general.”
The double standards are pretty hefty. Tyr, Helm, and other gods have absolutely NO responsibility whatsoever for the evil actions of their worshippers, but Torm does. You claim Torm interferes far too much in Faerunian affairs, but then complain when he doesn’t interfere enough. Some consistency would be nice. If you’re going to be using that measure then you should be castigating both Tyr and Helm even more, as their worshippers have committed far worse crimes and Tyr killed Helm over a trivial dispute.
That being said, I am looking forward to seeing Helm return. And while I can live without Tyr in the Realms, I’d be fine with his returning so long as he took on a lesser role similar to the one Jergal fulfills with Kelemvor, of the aged and semi-retired advisor and mentor. Tyr’s role in the Realms has always been incredibly narrow in comparison to Torm, so it makes sense for Tyr to fulfill the role of a lesser god while Torm continues to head up Celestia as the Greater God.
Rereading through the Grand History of the Realms, and it does indeed say something in there about it reverberating back and fowrard in time, and I seem to recall reading something similiar about the Spellplague, so yeah I guess it does make some kinda sense.
This kinda reminds me of the time when 3e first came out, and I was like WTF is up with these Shades? Oh ok all of Netheril was laid waste but somehow these guys are still around, yeah ok whatever. But then when went back and read up the Netheril Boxed set from 2e, and yup there they were.
See, here’s an example of your just making stuff up. His death had NOTHING AT ALL to do with Helm’s death. He didn’t submit himself to judgment over that one. He killed Helm, took a weeping Tymora with him, and that was it. His death was completely unrelated to those events.
Actually that's not correct.
He realized how wrong he was in killing Helm and as penance he gave his divine power over to Torm and reduced himself to just being a powerfull celestial.
And when a demonlord invaded their home realm he still stood up to face him mano a mano despite having no divine powers anymore. He did it because it had to be done and was slain for his bravery
Start another thread if you guys want to fight over who the cooler LG God is.
See, here’s an example of your just making stuff up. His death had NOTHING AT ALL to do with Helm’s death. He didn’t submit himself to judgment over that one. He killed Helm, took a weeping Tymora with him, and that was it. His death was completely unrelated to those events.
Actually that's not correct.He realized how wrong he was in killing Helm and as penance he gave his divine power over to Torm and reduced himself to just being a powerfull celestial.
And when a demonlord invaded their home realm he still stood up to face him mano a mano despite having no divine powers anymore. He did it because it had to be done and was slain for his bravery
That sounds interesting. Is there a source for this?
The Triad should also be equals, whoever they are.
It’s a triangle. Two points at the bottom, one at the top.
Seriously? You're this much of a ****?
Really?
I stopped talking directly to you, but you just can't let it go. How childish.
But that point is just innane. Nothing about the Triad requires one to be higher than the other two. And Tyr and Helm should have had to answer for the crimes of their Churches, or should have stripped those responsible of their rank, if not their power, just as Torm should have.
But, those were also agents of the Church, not a decision by someone at the top of the Church. Torm should have had the decision maker stripped of all rank and cast out of the church, if not imprisoned.
And don't suggest that there's any chance he was unaware of it. That's nonsense.
But more than anything, I stopped responding to you in an antagonizing manner, instead addressing the general topic of what the Triad and it's associated gods should look like in FR Next in a calm manner, willing to compromise and try to be productive, and you went ahead and posted a bunch of antagonistic bull. I even admitted that a lot of my dislike of Torm might stem from the tone of the writing about him, and you chose that as an avenue of attack.
Just stop. Grow up, and drop it.
See, here’s an example of your just making stuff up. His death had NOTHING AT ALL to do with Helm’s death. He didn’t submit himself to judgment over that one. He killed Helm, took a weeping Tymora with him, and that was it. His death was completely unrelated to those events.
Actually that's not correct.He realized how wrong he was in killing Helm and as penance he gave his divine power over to Torm and reduced himself to just being a powerfull celestial.
And when a demonlord invaded their home realm he still stood up to face him mano a mano despite having no divine powers anymore. He did it because it had to be done and was slain for his bravery
Thank you. I couldn't find the source, and it's been a few years, so I was kind of stuck with a vague recolection on that one.
BUt yes, exactly that.
Seriously? You're this much of a ****?
Really?
I stopped talking directly to you, but you just can't let it go. How childish.
But that point is just innane. Nothing about the Triad requires one to be higher than the other two.
And I disagree. Unless every other god in the Triad is a Greater God then it doesn't make much sense for them all to be equal. That and it's frankly better for one guy to be at the top and having two guys a step below. Whether it's Tyr, Torm, Superman, or Scruffy McGillicuddy, the principal Lawful Good god should be the man in charge. Who wants to worship a Lawful Good god who runs to a committee meeting before he does anything? The idea is to worship a hero god for Lawful Good adventurers, not the PTA.
And Tyr and Helm should have had to answer for the crimes of their Churches, or should have stripped those responsible of their rank, if not their power, just as Torm should have.
But, those were also agents of the Church, not a decision by someone at the top of the Church. Torm should have had the decision maker stripped of all rank and cast out of the church, if not imprisoned.
And don't suggest that there's any chance he was unaware of it. That's nonsense.
It's the 4E Realms where the designers explicitly decided that gods wouldn't have a hand in mortal affairs, and gods wouldn't even be able to strip their Clerics and Paladins of their powers. Do you see any other gods intervening in anything in the Realms since the advent of 4E? Because that's a universal thing, not just with Torm. And again, the gods aren't omniscient. They can't see everything, everywhere, all at once. Moreover, you repeatedly complained about gods taking a hand in mortal affairs and that being one of the things that was wrong with the Forgotten Realms. So why is one brand of interference bad and another okay?
But more than anything, I stopped responding to you in an antagonizing manner, instead addressing the general topic of what the Triad and it's associated gods should look like in FR Next in a calm manner, willing to compromise and try to be productive, and you went ahead and posted a bunch of antagonistic bull. I even admitted that a lot of my dislike of Torm might stem from the tone of the writing about him, and you chose that as an avenue of attack.
Just stop. Grow up, and drop it.
Well, I certainly appreciate the honesty. That's miles better than reading a bunch of stuff which isn't reflected in the lore at all.
Hey you two: take it to PMs, please.
Perhaps a seperate thread would be more appropriate, rather than polluting the Sundering topic with the deity discussion...
Yes let's "sunder" this topic.;)
Start another thread if you guys want to fight over who the cooler LG God is.
Just reposting these in case you two missed these. ;)
Funnily enough, though, back when Dragon (or was it Dungeon? I can never remember which is which) allowed fans to pitch submission ideas to them, I sent in a pitch about Elturgard (Which I've never liked and which never made sense to me, but I thought it'd be a good challenge to try and make something worthwhile out of it), and I thought it'd be a good idea to include a piece of fiction on the fate of Tyr. I still have it around here somewhere but in what I wrote Tyr wasn't killed by an army of demons and had actually emerged unscathed from that battle. Instead what happened was that in the aftermath of the battle he received a summons from his original pantheon and bequeathed his role to Torm so that he could leave and fulfill his duties elsewhere. I didn't make it explicit in the story but it would've been clear to any reader who was familiar with Norse Mythology that what happened to Tyr was that he returned to Asgard to face Ragnarok.
That sounds interesting. Is there a source for this?
It's mentioned as an "off screen event" in The Empyrean Odyssey trilogy.
Hmm, I'll have to check it out. Which book of the trilogy is it in?
Should be somewhere in the last one. While he didn't know that they would face an imminent invasion of fiends, he came to the defence of Celestia even in his new depowered state.
IIRC it's told by some of the celestials talking to each other.
Seriously? You're this much of a ****?
Really?
I stopped talking directly to you, but you just can't let it go. How childish.
But that point is just innane. Nothing about the Triad requires one to be higher than the other two.
And I disagree. Unless every other god in the Triad is a Greater God then it doesn't make much sense for them all to be equal. That and it's frankly better for one guy to be at the top and having two guys a step below. Whether it's Tyr, Torm, Superman, or Scruffy McGillicuddy, the principal Lawful Good god should be the man in charge. Who wants to worship a Lawful Good god who runs to a committee meeting before he does anything? The idea is to worship a hero god for Lawful Good adventurers, not the PTA.And Tyr and Helm should have had to answer for the crimes of their Churches, or should have stripped those responsible of their rank, if not their power, just as Torm should have.
But, those were also agents of the Church, not a decision by someone at the top of the Church. Torm should have had the decision maker stripped of all rank and cast out of the church, if not imprisoned.
And don't suggest that there's any chance he was unaware of it. That's nonsense.
It's the 4E Realms where the designers explicitly decided that gods wouldn't have a hand in mortal affairs, and gods wouldn't even be able to strip their Clerics and Paladins of their powers. Do you see any other gods intervening in anything in the Realms since the advent of 4E? Because that's a universal thing, not just with Torm. And again, the gods aren't omniscient. They can't see everything, everywhere, all at once. Moreover, you repeatedly complained about gods taking a hand in mortal affairs and that being one of the things that was wrong with the Forgotten Realms. So why is one brand of interference bad and another okay?But more than anything, I stopped responding to you in an antagonizing manner, instead addressing the general topic of what the Triad and it's associated gods should look like in FR Next in a calm manner, willing to compromise and try to be productive, and you went ahead and posted a bunch of antagonistic bull. I even admitted that a lot of my dislike of Torm might stem from the tone of the writing about him, and you chose that as an avenue of attack.
Just stop. Grow up, and drop it.
Well, I certainly appreciate the honesty. That's miles better than reading a bunch of stuff which isn't reflected in the lore at all.
Then you should have responded accordingly last time, instead of acting like a jerk.
If you're willing to knock off the antagonism at this point, though, so am I.
Anyway, the Triad being equals doesn't equate to a PTA sort of situation, or divine rule by commitee. It's a simple matter of three equals who pretty much cover most of the whole lawful good as an active force thing, working together. There's no need to heirarchy between them, because they are divine beings of law and good. They have the same goals. The church of Ilmater isn't going to take orders from the church of Tyr or Torm, either.
They're ideally going to work together and help eachother, but they're seperate entities unified by the alliance of their gods. An alliance doesn't need to have one higher member, and the rest less powerful.
In fact, even if they are all gods of the same order, there's no need for them to thus be of equal rank within the Triad, if we really must have on of them "in charge". Tyr can be the head of the triad whether the other two are greater gods or just gods, it doesn't matter. It's a voluntary alliance, not a vassal relationship.
As to Torm's church, and taking a hand in mortal affairs, etc. The 4e stuff doesn't say that gods don't ever send an angel down to say, "Hey, Arch Bishop Jerkhole really screwed up this time. He's out."
Torm can't strip him of his Paladin or Clerical power, but his rank? Certainly.
He can't see everything everywhere, but to think that he doesn't know the actions of his Paladins and Clerics strikes me as entirely absurd.
And as far as I'm concerned, the decision makers in that instance might as well have personally killed every single elf that died as a result of their decision. I don't believe that there is any moral differentiation between the two. Now that's not something imperical or anything, and I'd never say that it should decide anyone else's outlook, but it is a large part of my hatred for the Church of Torm, and the high level at which the decision was made compels me to hold Torm's lack of any sanction against them against him.
It's not about gods taking a direct hand in mortal affairs. That's something FR gods have done too much of. But they can communicate, even indirectly, with their clergy and other agents.
BTW, I can't blame you for not knowing about the Tyr giving up his power in between Killing Helm and dying. That whole chain of events is just aweful, and almost no one behaves in a way that makes any sense for them, with the exception of Tyr's last two acts. (giving up his divinity and dying in the defense of Celestia) His duel with Helm is just....completely ridiculous in every way.
It’s a triangle. Two points at the bottom, one at the top.
Just as a point, the triangle is a two dimensional construct. There is only lenght or width and their equivalents. There is no depth or height, so there is no 'top' to a traingle.
I like both gods equally.
It’s a triangle. Two points at the bottom, one at the top.Just as a point, the triangle is a two dimensional construct. There is only lenght or width and their equivalents. There is no depth or height, so there is no 'top' to a traingle.
I like both gods equally.
truth. also, the Triad isn't necessarily a triangle. It's just three gods, with a name that aviods evoking thoughts of real world gods while still getting the idea across that they are three gods working together toward common goals.
Funny, it evoked thoughts of real world religion to me from the moment I saw it... one of the things I never liked about those three actually.
Any time three gods are together, real world religions will be brought to mind. Not even just christianity, either. The idea of a trinity of beings isn't exactly rare.
The point is, they needed a collective name for three gods working together, and trinity would have been too direct a comparison, so they chose Triad, instead.
I dont like either of them more than the other.
I liked Helm
Funny, it evoked thoughts of real world religion to me from the moment I saw it... one of the things I never liked about those three actually.
Any time three gods are together, real world religions will be brought to mind. Not even just christianity, either. The idea of a trinity of beings isn't exactly rare.
The point is, they needed a collective name for three gods working together, and trinity would have been too direct a comparison, so they chose Triad, instead.
Sure, but to be honest, that arrangement never made much sense to me.
My own view was that Ilmater didn't really fit that well with them. I get the compassionate angle they included him for, but I never got the impression Tyr had any shortage of compassion... Torm maybe in his enthusiasm could forget it on occassion, but not Tyr. A more sensible Triad to me would have been Tyr, Torm, and Helm. Though I could also see Red Knight and Siamorphe eventually joining it as well.
It’s a triangle. Two points at the bottom, one at the top.Just as a point, the triangle is a two dimensional construct. There is only lenght or width and their equivalents. There is no depth or height, so there is no 'top' to a traingle.
I like both gods equally.
truth. also, the Triad isn't necessarily a triangle. It's just three gods, with a name that aviods evoking thoughts of real world gods while still getting the idea across that they are three gods working together toward common goals.
Its hard to avoid the real world religion comparison for christianity anyway, but I agree they do manage to bring it one step away.
I play the church of Torm as an idealized form of the medieval church. In other words the way it is portrayed.
Then you should have responded accordingly last time, instead of acting like a jerk.
I’ve been acting like a jerk? It seems to me that you’re the one who’s been throwing the personal attacks around.
Anyway, the Triad being equals doesn't equate to a PTA sort of situation, or divine rule by commitee. It's a simple matter of three equals who pretty much cover most of the whole lawful good as an active force thing, working together. There's no need to heirarchy between them, because they are divine beings of law and good. They have the same goals. The church of Ilmater isn't going to take orders from the church of Tyr or Torm, either.
The churches don’t take orders from other gods, but that doesn’t mean the gods don’t. Why should this be considered a bad thing? This situation is repeated throughout the Faerunian pantheon constantly as most of the gods serve others. Tiamat and Talona serve Bane. Mielikki serves Silvanus. The Red Knight serves Tempus. Helm served Tyr. And in real world mythologies most of the gods serve the head of the pantheon, whether it’s Zeus, Odin, or whomever. I don’t see what the issue is with having the other two gods of the Triad serving the chief god.
They're ideally going to work together and help each other, but they're separate entities unified by the alliance of their gods. An alliance doesn't need to have one higher member, and the rest less powerful.In fact, even if they are all gods of the same order, there's no need for them to thus be of equal rank within the Triad, if we really must have on of them "in charge". Tyr can be the head of the triad whether the other two are greater gods or just gods, it doesn't matter. It's a voluntary alliance, not a vassal relationship.
It doesn’t have to be that way, but why shouldn’t it be that way? Why would that be better? Because yes, it would be rule by committee, and that wouldn’t be interesting at all. Who wants to see a Forgotten Realms religion which is based on the gods holding a board meeting before they come to a decision? It’s medieval fantasy. Having organization based off of feudalism or some kind of hierarchy is to be expected, and I see no problem whatsoever with that hierarchy anymore than there’s an issue with Savras, Velsharoon, and Azuth serving Mystra instead of meeting as equal partners, or Jergal serving Kelemvor, or Deneir and Gond serving Oghma. On the other hand, I do take issue with the idea of having the Lawful Good gods forming a committee, as it wouldn’t make things any more interesting, but it would make things more boring. If anything, the fact that they’re all Lawful Good should serve as MORE reason for their relationship to be explicitly hierarchal, not less. A grouping of Chaotic Good gods would make more sense as a meeting of equals rather than a Lawful Good grouping, as they’d all be less willing to cede to authority.
As to Torm's church, and taking a hand in mortal affairs, etc. The 4e stuff doesn't say that gods don't ever send an angel down to say, "Hey, Arch Bishop Jerkhole really screwed up this time. He's out."Torm can't strip him of his Paladin or Clerical power, but his rank? Certainly. He can't see everything everywhere, but to think that he doesn't know the actions of his Paladins and Clerics strikes me as entirely absurd.
It may strike you as absurd, but that’s how it works. The gods have never been described as being omniscient and watching every worshipper, or even their most important worshippers, 24/7. Look up Deities & Demigods. A Greater God can, at most, look in on 20 different places at once, but to do so requires a Standard Action. So to observe their worshippers a god can’t do anything else but observe. So obviously if the gods attention is occupied by other matters then they won’t be able to observe even the limited number of locations they’re capable of looking at. That remote viewing can also be blocked by another god of greater power (And the rank is on a scale of 0-20, it’s not Greater God rank). In Faiths & Pantheons Shar was Divine Rank 18 while Tyr was Divine Rank 18. So if Torm inherited the same power level from Tyr then someone like Shar could obscure Torm’s vision if she wanted to. So yes, it’s very possible Torm has no idea what’s going on, even if he does look in on this guy from time to time, and even if another god wasn't purposefully blocking his vision.
And those are 3E rules. How much more limited is their ability when 4E operates under the assumption that the gods have very little effect on the world, and introduced the idea of Paladins and Clerics who can no longer have their powers stripped from them?
And you’re treating this guy as if he’s the Pope of the Church of Torm. He’s not. He’s just head of one particular branch of the church. And frankly, I don’t even understand why they worship Torm in the first place. Their capital city is beneath a second sun which they ascribe as a miracle from Amaunator. Why in the world would people parked under a miracle of Amaunator decide they’re all going to be Torm worshippers? It'd be like having a group of people find the Ark of the Covenant, believe it to be the Ark of the Covenant and revere it as a symbol of the Hebrew God... and then decide they're going to worship Mithras. It doesn't make a shred of sense. Elturgard is a complete waste of space. If there was going to be a nation where the worship of Torm was a heavy influence then it should’ve been centered around Tantras, not some random patch of land in the west beneath a miracle of Amaunator.
And as far as I'm concerned, the decision makers in that instance might as well have personally killed every single elf that died as a result of their decision. I don't believe that there is any moral differentiation between the two. Now that's not something imperical or anything, and I'd never say that it should decide anyone else's outlook, but it is a large part of my hatred for the Church of Torm, and the high level at which the decision was made compels me to hold Torm's lack of any sanction against them against him.
The same holds true for every single god, though. We’re not talking God with a capital “g”, here. We’re talking about gods, and they’re far more limited than what we assume from Christianity. They’re not all-knowing and all-seeing. They’re closer to the gods of classical mythology who don’t know everything and often make mistakes. If every good god was punished for every evil act committed by one of their followers and every evil god was punished for every good act committed by one of their followers then there wouldn’t be any gods.
It's not about gods taking a direct hand in mortal affairs. That's something FR gods have done too much of. But they can communicate, even indirectly, with their clergy and other agents.
Yes, but once again, you’re asking for a direct intervention while at the same time lambasting the very same god for too much mortal intervention.
BTW, I can't blame you for not knowing about the Tyr giving up his power in between Killing Helm and dying. That whole chain of events is just aweful, and almost no one behaves in a way that makes any sense for them, with the exception of Tyr's last two acts. (giving up his divinity and dying in the defense of Celestia) His duel with Helm is just....completely ridiculous in every way.
Welcome to the 4E Forgotten Realms.
*one quick Google search later*
Oh, so Returned Abeir finally got a real name? About time. I remember reading a post by MarkusTay either here or elsewhere on how he commented on that continent not having its own name (After all, the people living there wouldn't call it Returned Abeir), and the designers actually replied and said that they hadn't noticed that, but with hindsight realized that they should've thought up a real name for that place. That being said, yeah, I hope Maztica does end up returning and Laerakond/Returned Abeir/Whatever goes back to where it came from.
Oh, that reminds me, anyone here listen to the review of the 4E Forgotten Realms by TheGrumpyCelt? I just recalled something he said in it, the gist of it basically that the places hardest hit by the Spellplague (Chult, Maztica, Mulhorand) were also the places populated by brown people, while the places populated by white people tended to emerge unscathed. I'm sure it wasn't an intentional attempt on the part of the WotC to hammer the brown-skinned populations of the Realms, and wasn't an example of racism on their part, intentional or otherwise, but it was a funny coincidence all the same. Add that to the list of the things they needed to think through ("Hey guys, don't you think it might come off looking really bad if we smashed up every country on Faerun populated by brown people?").
Funny, it evoked thoughts of real world religion to me from the moment I saw it... one of the things I never liked about those three actually.
Any time three gods are together, real world religions will be brought to mind. Not even just christianity, either. The idea of a trinity of beings isn't exactly rare.
The point is, they needed a collective name for three gods working together, and trinity would have been too direct a comparison, so they chose Triad, instead.
Sure, but to be honest, that arrangement never made much sense to me.
My own view was that Ilmater didn't really fit that well with them. I get the compassionate angle they included him for, but I never got the impression Tyr had any shortage of compassion... Torm maybe in his enthusiasm could forget it on occassion, but not Tyr. A more sensible Triad to me would have been Tyr, Torm, and Helm. Though I could also see Red Knight and Siamorphe eventually joining it as well.
Actually, I was reminded by further reading recently that while Torm might get over zealous and forget compassion on occassion, Tyr had to learn compassion and mercy from Ilmater and Torm. Tyr started out the ultimate fair, unbiased judge. Weighing actions and facts, nothing more. Torm has more mercy, because he's the god of Paladins, not judges, and Ilmater is all about compassion, enduring suffering, etc.
In other words, Tyr is the Lawful Good that you go to for fair judgement. Tyr is the law itself. Torm is law enforment. Cops, basically. Ilmater is the part of Lawful Good that requires self sacrifice in terms of service to the faithful, the suffering, etc. It's really a very sensible combination.
Ok, Greenknight, I'm done with you. Blocked. You're not a person worth interracting with.
Laerakond?
*one quick Google search later*
Oh, so Returned Abeir finally got a real name? About time. I remember reading a post by MarkusTay either here or elsewhere on how he commented on that continent not having its own name (After all, the people living there wouldn't call it Returned Abeir), and the designers actually replied and said that they hadn't noticed that, but with hindsight realized that they should've thought up a real name for that place. That being said, yeah, I hope Maztica does end up returning and Laerakond/Returned Abeir/Whatever goes back to where it came from.
Huh, the more you know...
Oh, that reminds me, anyone here listen to the review of the 4E Forgotten Realms by TheGrumpyCelt? I just recalled something he said in it, the gist of it basically that the places hardest hit by the Spellplague (Chult, Maztica, Mulhorand) were also the places populated by brown people, while the places populated by white people tended to emerge unscathed. I'm sure it wasn't an intentional attempt on the part of the WotC to hammer the brown-skinned populations of the Realms, and wasn't an example of racism on their part, intentional or otherwise, but it was a funny coincidence all the same. Add that to the list of the things they needed to think through ("Hey guys, don't you think it might come off looking really bad if we smashed up every country on Faerun populated by brown people?").
I remember that review. "When someone *tasteful language here* in a salad bar and sets it on fire!" XD
No matter, I want to see these lands back without the Abeir/PoL ilk. I like the idea of diversity and other ethnicities being available. But, I do agree with another poster. These sub-settings without the faux-history crap would be nice! (As long as I can ignore the Abeir stuff)
At least the Returned Aebir stuff was original content, not some vague rip off of a foreign country.
Heck, while we're at it, Maztica and Kara'Tur weren't apart of the original Forgotten Realms. Why does their existence take precedence over newer content?
This whole reboot feels like a massive backlash against everything that has happened over the last 20 years.
Hence why I've mentioned making the sub-settings into independent settings. (This goes for Abeir too!) Also, I don't find Abeir original. The "give every race a country/empire like PoL" just doesn't stick with me for one >_>
But Faerun is dominated by Single-Race Kingdoms/Countries. Thay is human, Myth Dranor is Elven, The Rfit is Dwarven, the Underdark cities are Drow, the Dales and Cormyr are Human, etc.
I don't want sub-settings, I want a complete setting that represents the best of the Realms down through the editions.
Maztica got its start as its own setting/sub setting as did alqadara and karatur.
abeir should get its own setting as should have returned and now departed abeir
none of those areas are the realms, the main continent of the forgotten realms contains the realms itself, not the other areas such as karatur.....
taking a complete setting book will cost too much money to make and too much moeny to purchase.
Things Gleaned from Part One
* Erin M. Evans was originally asked to write The Adversary with a human protagonist in mind. Seems there was some concern that a tiefling heroine wouldn't be as accessible. She won over the higher-ups, though.
* Richard Lee Byers suggests his book will be especially interested in moral choices and dilemmas.
* Each of the six Sundering books will have a hardcover release, so no one needs to worry about the "e-book only" trend that has sprung up with recent releases.
* Somebody asked what the Sundering means for Cyric (apparently Cyric was the asker's favorite character). Troy Denning confirmed that Malik will play a prominent role in The Sentinel, and he will be carrying out Cyric's will. Denning went on to say that Cyric will be a "definite force" in his book.
* The idea is that each Sundering book will be released every two months starting October 2013 or so.
* When asked about the possibility of post-Sundering 5E novels taking place in the past, the response was a shady "You never know".
* Richard Lee Byers is particularly eager to see the pantheon enriched, with gods coming back and big names once again making a splash. He seems hopeful that he could somehow work it into his novel; at least, he would like to. Erin is hopeful to see the Harpers return to their former glory, while Troy wants Cyric to get more love.
* The future of short stories/anthologies seems up in the air bc of business reasons. Wyatt remains hopeful that we will see future anthologies in 5E, but things don't look as positive as he would like.
* The other continents are not a top priority. The expectation is that they will hopefully be addressed sometime in the future. For now, the idea is that the team's efforts are going to be geared solely to the main continent.
* Wyatt stresses that even if some of the Spellplague's effects are being undone, the actual occurrences that introduced Change X/Y/Z will not be ignored, for the sake of continuity. In other words, even if Change X is going to be undone, the designers will acknowledge Change X happened before addressing what the current situation is.
* Erin M. Evans was originally asked to write The Adversary with a human protagonist in mind. Seems there was some concern that a tiefling heroine wouldn't be as accessible. She won over the higher-ups, though.
* Richard Lee Byers suggests his book will be especially interested in moral choices and dilemmas.
* Each of the six Sundering books will have a hardcover release, so no one needs to worry about the "e-book only" trend that has sprung up with recent releases.
* Somebody asked what the Sundering means for Cyric (apparently Cyric was the asker's favorite character). Troy Denning confirmed that Malik will play a prominent role in The Sentinel, and he will be carrying out Cyric's will. Denning went on to say that Cyric will be a "definite force" in his book.
* The idea is that each Sundering book will be released every two months starting October 2013 or so.
* When asked about the possibility of post-Sundering 5E novels taking place in the past, the response was a shady "You never know".
* Richard Lee Byers is particularly eager to see the pantheon enriched, with gods coming back and big names once again making a splash. He seems hopeful that he could somehow work it into his novel; at least, he would like to. Erin is hopeful to see the Harpers return to their former glory, while Troy wants Cyric to get more love.
* The future of short stories/anthologies seems up in the air bc of business reasons. Wyatt remains hopeful that we will see future anthologies in 5E, but things don't look as positive as he would like.
* The other continents are not a top priority. The expectation is that they will hopefully be addressed sometime in the future. For now, the idea is that the team's efforts are going to be geared solely to the main continent.
* Wyatt stresses that even if some of the Spellplague's effects are being undone, the actual occurrences that introduced Change X/Y/Z will not be ignored, for the sake of continuity. In other words, even if Change X is going to be undone, the designers will acknowledge Change X happened before addressing what the current situation is.
That being said, I would like to see more original elements injected into those areas rather than just copy and pasting from real world history books into a Forgotten Realms game supplement. That's definitely a legitimate complaint of those areas, although in the case of Mulhorand and Unther they were moving away from that and making those areas very interesting. I was absolutely thrilled with their progression in the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, so I was really disappointed to see them disappear and all that forward movement that was made with them just disappear into the ether.
hate to say it but.....
Maztica got its start as its own setting/sub setting as did alqadara and karatur.
abeir should get its own setting as should have returned and now departed abeir
none of those areas are the realms, the main continent of the forgotten realms contains the realms itself, not the other areas such as karatur.....
taking a complete setting book will cost too much money to make and too much moeny to purchase.
That's what I've been implying. Return the other places to independent setting books again, but leave notes or something for incorporating them into other settings (like the Realms. And please, if that's the case, ditch the faux-history crap. Make it feel like it has known Faerun or at least has always been a part of Realms history if they make said column! Hell, if they reboot/keep the magazine, there's the chance right there!) I love the idea of multicultural fantasy settings, but perhaps those should stay as separate products with optional "How this would fit in The Realms" tags. I'd totally buy another "Nyambe: African Adventures" book. Or for that matter, just dedicate some magazine issues to these settings with an article or two on converting them to other settings. As for abeir, if I can ignore its existence without feeling chastised by the game and its fans, cool! If not, it'll be a fun place for my demented players to seek and destroy.
Sure, some of those places are a lot like real world places, but so is a lot of Faerun. Cormyr is your classic medieval fantasy setting. The Purple Dragon Knights are practically the Knights of the Round Table with Azoun IV as King Arthur and Vangerdahast as Merlin (Not to mention that Elminster is also reminiscent of Merlin)....
That being said, I would like to see more original elements injected into those areas rather than just copy and pasting from real world history books into a Forgotten Realms game supplement. That's definitely a legitimate complaint of those areas, although in the case of Mulhorand and Unther they were moving away from that and making those areas very interesting. I was absolutely thrilled with their progression in the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, so I was really disappointed to see them disappear and all that forward movement that was made with them just disappear into the ether.
Yup, since Faerun has that real world feel to it, I suppose other places and cultures would make sense (Ex: "cultures with brown people" as TheGrumpyCelt said in a review) But, there is always the chance to remake them in a Realmsian image. Erase the faux-history, so that way it feels more natural. Sure, Amm is Spain, Calimsham is Turkey, The Moonshae Islands are Wales/Scottland... But, those areas evolved beyond those assumptions and so can the other areas (like how Mulhorand and Unther started to) So, even if it's an independent book, there should be the ability to utilize them in the Realms so they fit as a piece of the Realms setting rather than a sub-setting. Though, my old Realms group had already did that, what with Plume magic scholars and Weave scholars mingling on the Endaerin Islands (A creation of my DM, modeled after Caribbean islands, complete with pirates of course) and questing off to the "Uncharted South" to make sure a sacred pilgrimage of a great mage is a success. While the game ended in war with a rivaling nation, it felt like the Realms, not a history textbook. Albeit, the DM tossed out the faux-history and remade it in a (dare I say) Greenwood-esque style.
It may strike you as absurd, but that’s how it works. The gods have never been described as being omniscient and watching every worshipper, or even their most important worshippers, 24/7. Look up Deities & Demigods. A Greater God can, at most, look in on 20 different places at once, but to do so requires a Standard Action. So to observe their worshippers a god can’t do anything else but observe. So obviously if the gods attention is occupied by other matters then they won’t be able to observe even the limited number of locations they’re capable of looking at. That remote viewing can also be blocked by another god of greater power (And the rank is on a scale of 0-20, it’s not Greater God rank). In Faiths & Pantheons Shar was Divine Rank 18 while Tyr was Divine Rank 18. So if Torm inherited the same power level from Tyr then someone like Shar could obscure Torm’s vision if she wanted to. So yes, it’s very possible Torm has no idea what’s going on, even if he does look in on this guy from time to time, and even if another god wasn't purposefully blocking his vision.
IIRC in 2e F&A said that greater gods could actually perform an unlimited number of tasks. So yes, at least in 2e they could actually look over the shoulder of every worshipper from novice to pope at the same time.
Things Gleaned from Part One
* Somebody asked what the Sundering means for Cyric (apparently Cyric was the asker's favorite character). Troy Denning confirmed that Malik will play a prominent role in The Sentinel, and he will be carrying out Cyric's will. Denning went on to say that Cyric will be a "definite force" in his book.
* Richard Lee Byers is particularly eager to see the pantheon enriched, with gods coming back and big names once again making a splash. He seems hopeful that he could somehow work it into his novel; at least, he would like to. Erin is hopeful to see the Harpers return to their former glory, while Troy wants Cyric to get more love.
About time. For the last sentence the most. He just needs an author to give him a follower like Cale,
And maybe that is why I never got on with Denning's books, he is the original Cyricist. Thinking back over the books of his that I have read they are redolent with "....aaand the bad guy wins". And much as that theme is occasionally enjoyable on a "keep fiction fresh" basis, it isn't one I set out to encounter on a regular basis. The bad guys win often enough in real life for me not to want them to do so in the books I read ;) .
And that is applicable to the Sundering as well. Faerun has felt a great deal darker during the 4E era. I am really wanting to see a bit more hope, and a lot more whimsy from here on in...
IIRC in 2e F&A said that greater gods could actually perform an unlimited number of tasks. So yes, at least in 2e they could actually look over the shoulder of every worshipper from novice to pope at the same time.
Hmm, I wasn't aware of that. I guess I was wrong, then, when I said that they weren't always omniscient. But that was only Greater Gods, and only during 2E. That wasn't the case in 3E. The part you quoted was from the 3E Deities & Demigods book, in which their abilities to peak over everybody's shoulders all at once were greatly curtailed.
Show
* Wyatt stresses that even if some of the Spellplague's effects are being undone, the actual occurrences that introduced Change X/Y/Z will not be ignored, for the sake of continuity. In other words, even if Change X is going to be undone, the designers will acknowledge Change X happened before addressing what the current situation is.
Things Gleaned from Part Two
* The people in the crowd don't understand the purpose and function of a microphone, because they are content to speak from their seats and mutter inaudibly.
Just because YOU dislike something, doesn't mean everyone dislikes the same thing.
Compromise between all of the versions of the Realms is the best way forward. You won't get everything you want but you will get some of what you want.
that there is the main problem, some are too much unwilling to compromise.
they would be right in doing so, since 4e fr broke their toys and they would be right in wanting to brake your toys in return.
I'll tell you what I want back and let the designers deal with it and put their own ideas into it.
we have the right to say waht we'd like in the 5e realms, but what we get is beyond of our control
For every person that disliked 4E Realms, there's a person that likes 4E Realms.
Just because YOU dislike something, doesn't mean everyone dislikes the same thing.
Well, I would certainly dispute that the ratio is 1:1, or anywhere near 1:1. My guess is that for every one person that likes the 4E Realms there're far, FAR more people who disliked the 4E Realms. Despite that, I am willing to compromise so that Tymanther can stay on Toril. As I posted elsewhere, if they attached both it and Akanul to Returned Abeir and then placed it in the ocean inbetween Faerun and Maztica that'd be just fine. But in place of Mulhorand? Nope. That's not debateable as far as I'm concerned. The conflict between the Mulhorandi, Untherites, Imaskari, and Thayans is just too old and too rife with possibilities to leave Tymanther there in Mulhorand's place.
the irony is, what are you willing to compromise.
that there is the main problem, some are too much unwilling to compromise.
they would be right in doing so, since 4e fr broke their toys and they would be right in wanting to brake your toys in return.
I'll tell you what I want back and let the designers deal with it and put their own ideas into it.
we have the right to say waht we'd like in the 5e realms, but what we get is beyond of our control
Did they break the Realms for me? Maybe. (old scars never heal) They just left me in the dust for a while is all. On the flip side, they gave others something new to try... And ya know what? They liked it! However, if Wizards is willing to give me something I like without taking it away from someone else (in the name of modularity, yeah!!!)... All the better! If you want to continue your campaign with Returned Abeir and their interactions with Faerun in 5e, please do! By all means, it wouldn't be right to "get even", as many jaded fans seem to suggest. Revenge and spite only leads to more revenge and spite. I realize 4e Realms didn't work for me, but it did for others. And like it or not, it's here and we have to deal with it! As the folks on Candlekeep say, The Realms is our ugly baby.
and by the watcher, I doubt they even know that, I only know that they don't like the 4e realms.
What I want:
the deities back to how they were in 3e.
removal of the aboleth sovernty( really this was a mistake to add in)
the returns of helm, eilistraee, mask, mystra etc.
A better and more savage matzica
all of the chultan penn, to be remade into a massive swamp rulled by lizardfolk and scaley kind and where that pc races are slaves
what I'll compromise
moving High Imaskar back to its ancient homeland for thsoe who want mulhaund back
as I said, they would be irght in asking. I doubt they would get what they want, if even they know what they want.
and by the watcher, I doubt they even know that, I only know that they don't like the 4e realms.
What I want:
the deities back to how they were in 3e.
removal of the aboleth sovernty( really this was a mistake to add in)
the returns of helm, eilistraee, mask, mystra etc.
A better and more savage matzica
all of the chultan penn, to be remade into a massive swamp rulled by lizardfolk and scaley kind and where that pc races are slaves
what I'll compromise
moving High Imaskar back to its ancient homeland for thsoe who want mulhaund back
Somehow I forgot about the aboleth thingy... Perhaps it's for the best?
If we're talking bringing back the earthy places, let's tie them into the Realms more. As pointed out, they started doing that to Unther and Mulhorand in 3e and it was pretty good IMO. When Maztica comes back, get rid of the colony crap. I wouldn't mind if scholars of weave and plume magic sharing secrets, perhaps holding cultural meetings or what have you. Perhaps a look at inter-tribal conflict and war. Perhaps how the supernatural and mythological elements interact with the rest of the Realms. Plus, Mesoamerican mythology had some rreeaaallllyy messed up monsters!
Same deal with Kara-Tur and the other areas. It's time for a Realmsian makeover! (I still need to track down my old DM and grab his notes for ideas) Of course, this should be an option. (An awesome option!)aboleths are in my HATe list
and the highlander AS has to go
so lets pick up out katanas, lop off their heads and take their lives and with it, their power.
in the end there can be only one
For every person that disliked 4E Realms, there's a person that likes 4E Realms.
Just because YOU dislike something, doesn't mean everyone dislikes the same thing.
Well, I would certainly dispute that the ratio is 1:1, or anywhere near 1:1. My guess is that for every one person that likes the 4E Realms there're far, FAR more people who disliked the 4E Realms. Despite that, I am willing to compromise so that Tymanther can stay on Toril. As I posted elsewhere, if they attached both it and Akanul to Returned Abeir and then placed it in the ocean inbetween Faerun and Maztica that'd be just fine. But in place of Mulhorand? Nope. That's not debateable as far as I'm concerned. The conflict between the Mulhorandi, Untherites, Imaskari, and Thayans is just too old and too rife with possibilities to leave Tymanther there in Mulhorand's place.
You have no evidence for how popular or unpopular the changes made to FR are, regardless of the edition. There are just too many other variables that could affect any metric you could come up with. All we know is that every edition of the Realms has dedicated fans who love every bit of the their favorite version of the setting. I abhor this backstabbing, "I want it all my way or else" mentality. You love Mulhorand, other people love Tymanther. Both can co-exist side by side. Compromise is about give and take, not "shove the thing I don't like into a corner." Remember, the devs could easily shove "Egypt and Babylon" off on some out of the way island.
My proposal is not Mulhorand or Tymanther, far from it. I want to see Ao fundamentally alter the landscape and add more land to that area of the continent. The whole bag of empires can have more than enough room to co-exist.
For every person that disliked 4E Realms, there's a person that likes 4E Realms.
Just because YOU dislike something, doesn't mean everyone dislikes the same thing.
Well, I would certainly dispute that the ratio is 1:1, or anywhere near 1:1. My guess is that for every one person that likes the 4E Realms there're far, FAR more people who disliked the 4E Realms. Despite that, I am willing to compromise so that Tymanther can stay on Toril. As I posted elsewhere, if they attached both it and Akanul to Returned Abeir and then placed it in the ocean inbetween Faerun and Maztica that'd be just fine. But in place of Mulhorand? Nope. That's not debateable as far as I'm concerned. The conflict between the Mulhorandi, Untherites, Imaskari, and Thayans is just too old and too rife with possibilities to leave Tymanther there in Mulhorand's place.
You have no evidence for how popular or unpopular the changes made to FR are, regardless of the edition. There are just too many other variables that could affect any metric you could come up with. All we know is that every edition of the Realms has dedicated fans who love every bit of the their favorite version of the setting. I abhor this backstabbing, "I want it all my way or else" mentality. You love Mulhorand, other people love Tymanther. Both can co-exist side by side. Compromise is about give and take, not "shove the thing I don't like into a corner." Remember, the devs could easily shove "Egypt and Babylon" off on some out of the way island.
My proposal is not Mulhorand or Tymanther, far from it. I want to see Ao fundamentally alter the landscape and add more land to that area of the continent. The whole bag of empires can have more than enough room to co-exist.
Fine there is no solid, indesputable evidence. But like most things there is the case that is MOST likely.
Measure the activity of Candlekeep now to what it was before it was decided to arbitrarily change the realms for those who thought there was too much information. Measure the fan lore put out about 4e compared to that of previous editions. They are going back to the original geography because they lost so many fans of the Forgotten Realms. It is unlikely that there is a 1:1 ratio of fans. Very unlikely. Whether you beleive it or not does not really matter, what matters is that the game writers see it, as they do, and they are willing to right the ship.
Abeir should have been its own campaign world. I think a good compromise is the portal method. Let there be portals to the realms of Abeir, and it treat Abeir like any other campaign setting. Abeir may have had original content, but it added nothing to the realms. There is nothing in Abeir you could do that you could not do in Faerun. It was a shoehorned campaign world.
BUT if you want to run a campaign with asian themes you have Kara tur. Want arabian? You have Zakhara. Do you want to explore mesoamerican themes in your campaign, maybe an entire campaign like Apocalypto? Maztica. Plus they deserve their place MORE than Abeir because no one has published novels in Abeir. I have more lore in supplements for the old empires alone than all of the published pages of Abeir.
Abeir is its own campaign setting and should be treated as such. By making it linked be portals, those that want PoL can keep it and those that want the Forgotten Realms to remain can easily ignore it. Not only that it can be developed independently.
No one is advocating getting rid of Dragonborn, or genasi. The changes brought to 4e were not well thought, and they were not organic changes to the realms. They were changes for mechanics sake only.
Mulhorand, Kara Tur, et al. filled a theme and cultural niche. That is why they should stay.
Abeir filled a marketing niche to give new people a part of the realms tfor which they 'know just as much as anyone'. Tyrmanther was added to conform to rules mechanics.
They are going back to the original geography because they lost so many fans of the Forgotten Realms.
Or they're just using the Realms because it's always been the flagship setting for launching the latest edition of D&D.
If D&D and the Realms had done great in 4E, when 5E came around we'd have still seen the Realms, front and center.
Measure the activity of Candlekeep now to what it was before it was decided to arbitrarily change the realms
Or on these boards right here for that matter
They are going back to the original geography because they lost so many fans of the Forgotten Realms.
Or they're just using the Realms because it's always been the flagship setting for launching the latest edition of D&D.
If D&D and the Realms had done great in 4E, when 5E came around we'd have still seen the Realms, front and center.
True to the flagship setting. I am not talking about why it is first though. Specifically I am addressing Ed Greenwood's comment of 'righting the ship', and Paul S. Kemp's comment of how they lost their way. Coupled with returning the Realms to its previous geography, it is a pretty good indication that people that manage the realms have an indication that the popularity decreased.
Measure the activity of Candlekeep now to what it was before it was decided to arbitrarily change the realms
Or on these boards right here for that matter
Candlekeep is thriving. This place was a ghost town for a while. One could watch the tumbleweeds blowing by...
For every person that disliked 4E Realms, there's a person that likes 4E Realms.
Just because YOU dislike something, doesn't mean everyone dislikes the same thing.
Well, I would certainly dispute that the ratio is 1:1, or anywhere near 1:1. My guess is that for every one person that likes the 4E Realms there're far, FAR more people who disliked the 4E Realms. Despite that, I am willing to compromise so that Tymanther can stay on Toril. As I posted elsewhere, if they attached both it and Akanul to Returned Abeir and then placed it in the ocean inbetween Faerun and Maztica that'd be just fine. But in place of Mulhorand? Nope. That's not debateable as far as I'm concerned. The conflict between the Mulhorandi, Untherites, Imaskari, and Thayans is just too old and too rife with possibilities to leave Tymanther there in Mulhorand's place.
You have no evidence for how popular or unpopular the changes made to FR are, regardless of the edition. There are just too many other variables that could affect any metric you could come up with. All we know is that every edition of the Realms has dedicated fans who love every bit of the their favorite version of the setting. I abhor this backstabbing, "I want it all my way or else" mentality. You love Mulhorand, other people love Tymanther. Both can co-exist side by side. Compromise is about give and take, not "shove the thing I don't like into a corner." Remember, the devs could easily shove "Egypt and Babylon" off on some out of the way island.
My proposal is not Mulhorand or Tymanther, far from it. I want to see Ao fundamentally alter the landscape and add more land to that area of the continent. The whole bag of empires can have more than enough room to co-exist.
Fine there is no solid, indesputable evidence. But like most things there is the case that is MOST likely.
Measure the activity of Candlekeep now to what it was before it was decided to arbitrarily change the realms for those who thought there was too much information. Measure the fan lore put out about 4e compared to that of previous editions. They are going back to the original geography because they lost so many fans of the Forgotten Realms. It is unlikely that there is a 1:1 ratio of fans. Very unlikely. Whether you beleive it or not does not really matter, what matters is that the game writers see it, as they do, and they are willing to right the ship.
Abeir should have been its own campaign world. I think a good compromise is the portal method. Let there be portals to the realms of Abeir, and it treat Abeir like any other campaign setting. Abeir may have had original content, but it added nothing to the realms. There is nothing in Abeir you could do that you could not do in Faerun. It was a shoehorned campaign world.
BUT if you want to run a campaign with asian themes you have Kara tur. Want arabian? You have Zakhara. Do you want to explore mesoamerican themes in your campaign, maybe an entire campaign like Apocalypto? Maztica. Plus they deserve their place MORE than Abeir because no one has published novels in Abeir. I have more lore in supplements for the old empires alone than all of the published pages of Abeir.
Abeir is its own campaign setting and should be treated as such. By making it linked be portals, those that want PoL can keep it and those that want the Forgotten Realms to remain can easily ignore it. Not only that it can be developed independently.
No one is advocating getting rid of Dragonborn, or genasi. The changes brought to 4e were not well thought, and they were not organic changes to the realms. They were changes for mechanics sake only.
Mulhorand, Kara Tur, et al. filled a theme and cultural niche. That is why they should stay.
Abeir filled a marketing niche to give new people a part of the realms tfor which they 'know just as much as anyone'. Tyrmanther was added to conform to rules mechanics.
I won't deny that FR lost popularity in the internet communities but that was true of every setting save Dark Sun. 4E was highly divisive, with lots of people quitting everything related to D&D as a form of protest. A lot of the new players that 4E attracted were less internet-focused (especially the people who played in D&D Encounters). Not only that but WotC basically killed the setting 4 years ago. They released 2 books and an adventure, then a paltry amount of articles in Dragon. That's not enough to satisfy older players who are used to splat book after splat book of material. When you abandon content, you can't complain when it becomes unpopular. Who knows how FR would be viewed today if WotC had released a new book every few months for the setting.
Having said that, I hated what WotC did to the Realms. I hate that they do it every time they release a new edition. It's pointless and meaningless, change for changes' sake.
And now WotC is doing it again.
Let's change the Realms and murder everything we've built up for the last four years.
I want stability. I hate all these RSE's.
I hate timeline jumps.
In 6 years we've jumped 200-ish years. That's terrible! Every human character from 3rd edition (and prior editions) are dead (save a select few who survived via contrived means). Hordes and hordes of fluffy material was rendered useless with the first time jump and now doubly so with the 5E time jump. What I loved about the Realms was that it was so fantastically developed. Ever nook and cranny had a story. That was washed away in '08 and now they're doing it again. How many years will it take for the world to be as developed as it was in '07? Years? Months? Probably never. That's what I hate.
As for Abeir stuff, I would like Laerakond to be moved out into the ocean and allowed to stay. I like the continent and it's far enough removed so that WotC doesn't have to do much to keep it in the setting.
I would prefer it if all the Real-World-Ethno-Regions were completely revamped. Sure Faerun is modeled after Western society but it is very, very different that real life. I want to see all those enthno-regions to be given the same treatment. Really go crazy with those areas and make them more than "China, Japan, Egypt, Babylon, Aztec, Middle-East, etc." If they are going to stay the same, I would prefer them to be removed, or at the very least minimized in the fluff. ( I fully expect Mulhorand to be totally different, their time in Abeir forcing many, many changes culturally.)
Regardless, those are my personal views. Everyone has different opinions. Many have wildly different. This is why I think compromise is more important than anything else. Give and take. Make Faerun feel like it did in the early 90's. Leave some of the 4E stuff, especially the most popular regions (perhaps moving them, if necessary). We should take the best from previous editions and alter the map to accommodate everything.
P.S. I wish they were rebooting the setting and pretending 4E's fluff never happened. Put Drizzt and Elminster together and let them have a little "The City on the Edge of Forever" kinda of adventure, only they mess up and change history.
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Having said that, I hated what WotC did to the Realms. I hate that they do it every time they release a new edition. It's pointless and meaningless, change for changes' sake.
In 6 years we've jumped 200-ish years. That's terrible! Every human character from 3rd edition (and prior editions) are dead (save a select few who survived via contrived means). Hordes and hordes of fluffy material was rendered useless with the first time jump and now doubly so with the 5E time jump. What I loved about the Realms was that it was so fantastically developed. Ever nook and cranny had a story. That was washed away in '08 and now they're doing it again. How many years will it take for the world to be as developed as it was in '07? Years? Months? Probably never. That's what I hate.
As for Abeir stuff, I would like Laerakond to be moved out into the ocean and allowed to stay. I like the continent and it's far enough removed so that WotC doesn't have to do much to keep it in the setting.
I would prefer it if all the Real-World-Ethno-Regions were completely revamped. Sure Faerun is modeled after Western society but it is very, very different that real life. I want to see all those enthno-regions to be given the same treatment. Really go crazy with those areas and make them more than "China, Japan, Egypt, Babylon, Aztec, Middle-East, etc." If they are going to stay the same, I would prefer them to be removed, or at the very least minimized in the fluff. ( I fully expect Mulhorand to be totally different, their time in Abeir forcing many, many changes culturally.)
Regardless, those are my personal views. Everyone has different opinions. Many have wildly different. This is why I think compromise is more important than anything else. Give and take. Make Faerun feel like it did in the early 90's. Leave some of the 4E stuff, especially the most popular regions (perhaps moving them, if necessary). We should take the best from previous editions and alter the map to accommodate everything.
A revamp of the ethno-regions are you call them is waht I'm certainly asking for! I want these Earthy lands to really fit into the Realms! And as I said, I want it to be easy for me to ignore Abeir as a whole on top of that. Perhaps have a panel off to the side stating, "In a canon realms game, this setting has had this happened to it because of being on Abeir!" I want nothing to vanish, because that's what happened in 4e's take, causing the cataclysm within the fandom itself! I don't want that! And yes, the RSEs are horribly tiring. I don't care if Sundering isn't another spellplague or time of troubles... the time jumps frustrate me so
Is there any info out there about what rules set will be used for the 2013 Sundering Adventures WOTC plans to release? Will they be setting neutral? I'm hoping it is not the 4E rules set since all this Next talk has me ready to be done with 4E.
I don't believe they have flat-out stated whether the Sundering Adventures next year will use 4E rules or whatever the extent of the 5E rules will be at that point in time. Considering how the Adventures are specifically geared to FR and its future, I don't see them being "setting neutral"; there will probably be a lot of references to FR in the 1480s-1500 DR range, plus past history.
Or are they advancing the timeline again for 5e?
Don't know how I miss that, but it'd give them time to rebuild ruined cities and other long term changes.
I'm excited.
200 years? I thought the jump to the 4e realms was only a 100 years? At the end of the 3rd edition realms Mystra got wacked and then for the setting book they fast fowarded a 100 years later. Even adding in time advancing via novels, that's 106 years give or take. Or are they advancing the timeline again for 5e? Don't know how I miss that, but it'd give them time to rebuild ruined cities and other long term changes. I'm excited.
The keynote address at Gencon mentioned that Ao reforging the Tablets of Fate should occur sometime around the close of the 1400s DR, the turn of the century give or take. For that reason, I personally expect that we'll see a time jump from 1480 DR to around 1500 DR, given that information. Nothing is set in stone, though.
another time jump....
Yup...
The question was asked about which rule set would the two FR adventures used. I think that stumped them...so to be determined/announced.
Keith
I have not read or heard any statement (aside from speculation) of a large time jump. Erik posted on a blog that the Sundering starts soon, I think it was 1485 DR. It is currently 1482 DR and 5e/D&D Next is at least two years off. I think the Sundering will only last a short time.
The question was asked about which rule set would the two FR adventures used. I think that stumped them...so to be determined/announced.
Keith
Mind posting a link? I believe you, I just want to know on what site Erik mentioned this.
It is currently 1482 DR
What source is that time based off?
The Sundering, as explained to me, will not include a massive jump in time. It will be near-future to the existing timeline.
Many of us would like to help fill in the blanks of the 100 year jump. We'll see if WotC accepts our ideas.
I didn't bookmark Erik's blog but should be able to figure out where it is (or how I found it).
Keith
Early in 2010 (Jan) I got a copy of Rich Baker's novel, Avenger, (early distribution at DDXP) and the story picks up on 3 Hammer, the Year of Deep Water Drifting (1480 DR).
Later that Spring I bought James Davis's novel, Circle of Skulls, which starts on Nightal 18, the Year of Deep Water Drifting (1480 DR).
Now admittedly at that point I made the assumption that what WotC had told us was being followed.
Looking at some other books, it is not quite as clear.
Richard Byers trilogy, Brotherhood of the Griffon, which came out in 2010-2011, were all set in 1479 DR, in a fairly tight story arc. Don't know why he could not do that if he wanted to.
Ed Greenwood started Elminster Must Die in 1479 DR. Not sure when the trilogy ends; I have asked.
In 2011, Erik's ebook, Shadowbane was set in 1480 DR.
In 2012, Richard Baker's ebook, Prince of Ravens, was set in 1479 DR.
The two more recent game products present some variation.
The Neverwinter Campaign Setting (published in 2011) says the current year is 1479 DR.
The Menzoberranzan, City of Intrigue game supplement, just released in 2012, says it is set in 1480 DR.
I admit I don't know if that means they decided to slow the years down or what. I do admit that I have not found a reference that cites 1481 or 1482 DR as yet.
Erik's website is: erikscottdebie.com/
I was reacting to three statements he made in the history of the realms discussion.
"This era (lasting from 1357 through 1486) was marked by extreme turbulence..."
"Then, as the 15th century came to a close, the third and final Sundering envisioned by the elven prophet so many years ago would come to pass. AO would once again forge the Tablets of Fate, inscribing the names and purposes of the gods he chose to serve in a new, inclusive divine reality, free of the petty schemes of unchecked gods. The worlds Abeir and Toril would be split from one another once more, though both would carry echoes and marks of the experience. Many of the gods lost to the ravages of time would return, reawakened to fulfill their inscribed purpose. AO would end the Era of Upheaval and reforge Toril as it had existed before the series of cataclysms brought on by the actions of the Gods. A new world, true to the old and moving ever forward, would dawn, and heroes would once more be called to prevent such a cataclysm from occurring ever again."
"Moving forward from the Sundering, we’re looking at a new dawn of the Realms. The Era of Upheaval has ended. The Realms can finally return to the way it was before the Time of Troubles, a land of infinite impossibility and buried secrets and ancient evils awaiting heroes to counter them. If you play in the 1480s world, you should be finding yourself in a land not unlike that of the original OGB, without all kinds of crazy world-shaking events happening. The Realms is yours to sculpt."
If moving forward from the Sundering, which apparently is triggered in 1486, and afterwards you can play in the post Sundering world of the 1480s....that is a pretty narrow span (1487-1489 DR) for the post Sundering world to start.
You may disagree with my interpretation, but you can see what I based it on.
Questions?
Keith
"Notice that all three books of my most recent Elminster trilogy take place in the spring of the Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR), which is also the baseline year for the 4e Realms game books. So at the end of ELMINSTER ENRAGED, we're still in, yep, 1479 DR.
The Sundering books will AT MOST cover the decade after that, and probably far less (less than five years, total). I think. So, no big jump.
Ed "
So while his reply does not exactly correlate to the totality of what was published, we will likely still be in the 1480s when the Sundering is complete. Sounds like the 1486 DR date cited by Erik is an estimate, possibly as good as any and maybe better than most.
Keith
I got a reply from Ed which I will quote:
"Notice that all three books of my most recent Elminster trilogy take place in the spring of the Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR), which is also the baseline year for the 4e Realms game books. So at the end of ELMINSTER ENRAGED, we're still in, yep, 1479 DR.
The Sundering books will AT MOST cover the decade after that, and probably far less (less than five years, total). I think. So, no big jump.
Ed "
So while his reply does not exactly correlate to the totality of what was published, we will likely still be in the 1480s when the Sundering is complete. Sounds like the 1486 DR date cited by Erik is an estimate, possibly as good as any and maybe better than most.
Keith
Interesting. Good find.
Good point Elemental Elf, what's say another ten years to stabalize?
It's the chance to kill off even more of the few extant character NPCs that are left in the Realms.
Good point Elemental Elf, what's say another ten years to stabalize?
It's the chance to kill off even more of the few extant character NPCs that are left in the Realms.
I hate that I lost a good deal of existing NPCs when 4th ed came out, I hope we dont lose any more of the flavour characters of the realms
Good point Elemental Elf, what's say another ten years to stabalize?
It's the chance to kill off even more of the few extant character NPCs that are left in the Realms.
There's so few left already and the Sundering is probably going to kill off some of the minor ones already... I'm all for keeping them alive but it makes no sense to go from "Chaotic World" to "Stable, happy world" with the flick of a switch. Plus, you want to give the world - and the NPCs - time to gel in the new normal, most especially if you want it to feel like the old realms.
www.amazon.com/Storm-Over-Baldurs-Gate-S...
It seems that the first adventure for the Sundering is going to be focusing on Baldur's Gate. Considering that it has become a proper rival to Waterdeep, I'm glad to see they are working with it. The little blurb speaks of a long-forgotten ancient evil (is there any other kind these days?) threatening the region.
I'm not going to get involved in a 'who's the best god and why' discussion, not after spending the last hour reading the post about Torm and Tyr
I do feel the return of Mystra
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I know she returned at the end of Elminster Enraged