Po = (Wf x Wb) + P1 + P2...
where
Po = Power
Wf = Worshiper Faith
Wb = Worship Base
P1 = Portfolio 1
P2 = Portfolio 2
and so on...
Was. :whatsthis
I don't see such an equation working, nor making sense anymore.
-What is it exactly that you think is causing the problem? Or, what (if anything) did I change that makes you not accept it anymore?
Shars power is clearly over 9000.
NINE THOUSAAAAAANNNDDD!!!!
Killing so many followers that it would cause a difference in power would seem to be impossible. Especially if many of the older followers are doing it in Secret like they are used to doing.
I think she has more followers now than she ever has had in the past. If she was a greater deity with fewer worshippers than she has now I think the whole follower thing might not work for her. Some gods portfolios are just too powerful and can (IMO) sustain them without the follower thing. Being one of the first gods she might be very primordial in nature and not really need followers. To me this goes for Selune, Chauntea, Sungodguy, and Mystra.
I would think that Mask or some other lesser god had more worshippers than she did, and they were still lesser gods and she was a greater one.
Of course this does not mean I am right or anything, it is just an opinion.
Plus I think the creators ignored most "AO Mandates" from the TOT in 3E and 4E. They clearly did not like the concept of AO and many of his new rules. When I look back at it all the TOT was the worst thing that the designers did to FR IMO. They made the gods act as NPCs and then dragged out the concept years later after the trilogy. Fans read those books and started their dislike for Mystra during those years IMO. DMs and players might have been heavily influenced by this stuff and I bet Mystra was used pretty heavy-handedly in many games. So to me TOT began the trend of NPCing gods and that really hurt the setting.
The thing is that if you kill all of Shar's worshippers, she should be in severe dire straits. If PC's kill enough of Shar's worshippers, what happens? Technically, in game, nothing. But out of game the consequences should be pretty far reaching. Loss of resources, loss of worshippers, etc.
-In theory, nothing happens. If her portfolios have enough power to put her squarely within the realm of 'Greater Deity', then it makes no difference what happens to any followers that she has. This is not specific to Shar, of course. This goes for any deity. Kill enough of someone's followers, and you might have to adjust things, in your game.
Some gods portfolios are just too powerful and can (IMO) sustain them without the follower thing.
-Right. Even if they have "weak" portfolios, that's how some deities survive with few, or literally no worshipers.
Plus I think the creators ignored most "AO Mandates" from the TOT in 3E and 4E.
-That they dislike it doesn't allow them to wholly ignore it without repercussion. I don't see a case where the Time of Troubles was ignored, anyway.
I'd add things like experience, knowledge, planar power, origin ...
there are no general formulas, they're too different
I'd add things like experience, knowledge, planar power, origin ...
-How would these things factor in? 'Experience' and 'Knowledge', those would get "delegated" to the deity's stats. 'Origin', that would translate into what portfolios they have, and how many worshipers they'd have. 'Planar Power', I'm not sure what that means- could you go on in a little more detail with this?
I would equalize 'origin' with whether the deity is a true deity or an ascended mortal. Since the true-have always been a deity-deities are generally slightly more powerful than the other guys, the result could probably be multiplied by 1.2 or 1.5.
-This, I think, is because of their (A) portfolios and (B) worship base. Deities that have "been there since the beginning" have an obvious advantage, in that they are more likely to have the 'necessary' (powerful) portfolios, and a lot more time to create a worship base. Deities who are relatively new are more likely to have attained their divinity by claiming a somewhat less-important portfolio, or to have a smaller worship base, by virtue of not having as much time as other deities to carve that little niche for themselves.
-This, I think, is because of their (A) portfolios and (B) worship base. Deities that have "been there since the beginning" have an obvious advantage, in that they are more likely to have the 'necessary' (powerful) portfolios, and a lot more time to create a worship base. Deities who are relatively new are more likely to have attained their divinity by claiming a somewhat less-important portfolio, or to have a smaller worship base, by virtue of not having as much time as other deities to carve that little niche for themselves.
Well, when Ariel Manx became the new Mystra she had already some extented worship base.
Of course, this might be one reason, yes, though I rather thought that the true deities' essences aren't tainted or flawed by a former mortality, as the ascended mortal one's essences are.
In 3e we could translate this into game terms with HD and class levels.
-What is it exactly that you think is causing the problem? Or, what (if anything) did I change that makes you not accept it anymore?
We've been through this prior. My issue is not so much with your formula (though, it may be looked at in how such variables are applied to a degree) --I think it is fine.
I just don't see it applying to the 4e system of the divine. There is now a hierarchy there that needs to be followed--not determined by a formula that previously determined things.
I just don't see it applying to the 4e system of the divine. There is now a hierarchy there that needs to be followed--not determined by a formula that previously determined things.
-Even in 4e- if you look at things through the prism of 4e only (in that, say, Red Knight was never a deity, but instead, was always an "Exarch")- it should still work, to a degree. There aren't portfolios, but there are spheres. Either way, some are still more important (or widely used) than others. They still have followers and their zealousness and everything. With 4e though, it isn't as smooth, though, you're right.
-Even in 4e- if you look at things through the prism of 4e only (in that, say, Red Knight was never a deity, but instead, was always an "Exarch")- it should still work, to a degree. There aren't portfolios, but there are spheres. Either way, some are still more important (or widely used) than others. They still have followers and their zealousness and everything. With 4e though, it isn't as smooth, though, you're right.
From the way I see it, worship doesn't filter up through Exarch's and such as you imply. Especially not where portfolio's come into play.
It's more like the "trickle down" theory that CENSORED our economy, you give it all to the big guy and it gets allocated.
Or something.
-Like I said, if you view things through the 4e prism alone- where most Exarches were never deities to begin with- it still works. There's a lot of things that, when looked through the prism of 1e-4e, all the way, stop making sense.
Stop putting me in a prism, you CENSORED CENSORED of a CENSORED!!!
Did you put a disclaimer on your formula of power? No!
So mark it 3e next time and stop trying to pawn it off to us pathetic fools looking through your intangible prism.
So mark it 3e next time and stop trying to pawn it off to us pathetic fools looking through your intangible prism.
-The 4e Forgotten Realms don't exist. ;)
OuchFrom LKs wording I just figured he was talking about 3E. To me there is no "formula" for 4E deities. There is no dieites book and nothing about Divine Rank in 4E and hopefully they don't mention the gods too much as NPCs in the novels or explain how they "work".
What the hell is this:
-Even in 4e- if you look at things through the prism of 4e only (in that, say, Red Knight was never a deity, but instead, was always an "Exarch")- it should still work, to a degree. There aren't portfolios, but there are spheres. Either way, some are still more important (or widely used) than others. They still have followers and their zealousness and everything. With 4e though, it isn't as smooth, though, you're right.
All you had to do is roll your eyeballs an inch above their lazy, complacent spots, Rauric! It was right there.
BTW: *burrito slap*
Punk.
-The 4e Forgotten Realms don't exist. ;)
Then stop CENSORED talking about them, numbnut!!
-The formula to roughly calculate power of a deity is as follows:
-This is very rough, as mentioned. Arbitrary numbers are assigned to the variables, to make the data interpretable. So, let me use a quick example, using Deity 'A', 'B', and 'C'.
Deity A: 100 followers, very high fervor, 3 portfolios (1 worth 100, 2 worth 50)
Deity B: 1,000 followers, moderate fervor, 5 portfolios (5 worth 50)
Deity C: 10,000 followers, low fervor, 1 portfolio (1 worth 100)
I was talking about this JD. This just seemed like a 3E thing to me. 4E does not have this stuff. So as to LKs OP, I assumed he was talking about 3E and perhaps 2E alone.
-Fourth edition has all of that: People who worship deities, people who worship deities more than others, and things that deities are "in charge" of.
My system is much more elaborrate, and includes power-level based on proximity to major centers of worship (which also depends on the size of the Temple and it's 'flock'), which also in turn effects the level of spells priests can request within those zones, and also allows for power-boosts of priest with temples, with varying degees based on Temple size, and also if their is a holy relic present at the site, and weather the priest is within direct contact with the relic...
etc, etc, etc...
VERY complicated.
I also have 'Worship points' based on actions of the individual during the course of the day, multipled by the individual's level. A level 10 priest generates ten times as many WPs - on average - then a 1st level priest does. By the same token, a level 5 farmer could very well be generating more WPs then a 1st level priest.
That accounts for why deities can get 'temporary bursts' of power from sacrifices, but in the long run, its a bad idea. All the WP (Worship Points) you get from an an individual is based on his CURRENT level, and what his 'average output' will be over the course of his life.
So if you sacrifice that 1st level cowherder today, he won't ever get to become a level 15 priest of your church sometime down the line, which would have provided you with FAR more WPs in the long haul.
Also, 'Holy Days' effect everything - deific power and WPs generated, as well as the level of the priest delivering the mass, etc, etc...
All very complicated, and all VERY useless IG. :P
Most of the time... ;)
Edit: Looking things over, I realized my system is built more for use, revolving around priests and mortals, whereas you are just determining their DvR - which in my system fluctuates, depending on the Sphere (for multi-spheric deities), and weather the deitiy is manifesting inside or outside an area controlled by his pantheon (and, once again, the proximity to his/her nearset main temple).
Edit 2: And of course weather they are in their 'home plane' or not - which is where they are nearly indestructable.
Time to cut back on the caffeine there JD...
No!
I was talking about this JD. This just seemed like a 3E thing to me. 4E does not have this stuff. So as to LKs OP, I assumed he was talking about 3E and perhaps 2E alone.
Sorry, man—that was actually a backwards bash on LK. Sometimes dripping sarcasm doesn’t work around here.
-Fourth edition has all of that: People who worship deities, people who worship deities more than others, and things that deities are "in charge" of.
Indeed... and in the absence of any other deific ranking system, if you feel you need one, then this one looks as good as any other. Just as good as arbitrarily putting it somewhere really.
No.
Edit: Looking things over, I realized my system is built more for use, revolving around priests and mortals, whereas you are just determining their DvR ….
Thank you for correcting you. I have no time. :whatsthis
Sorry, man—that was actually a backwards bash on LK. Sometimes dripping sarcasm doesn’t work around here.
No worries, I can't tell the difference anymore. I think I am burnt out. That is why I don't post things like a jerk like I used to do ;).
No worries, I can't tell the difference anymore. I think I am burnt out. That is why I don't post things like a jerk like I used to do ;).
Come back, you CENSORED jerk!! Here, you CENSORED jerk! You're needed!!
This is no time to punk out you CENSORED CENSORED!!! Man up.
Or, just go get me a #5 value meal from Mickey D's and I'll call it square.
Too bad we no longer find him worth the effort. :P
-How would these things factor in? 'Experience' and 'Knowledge', those would get "delegated" to the deity's stats. 'Origin', that would translate into what portfolios they have, and how many worshipers they'd have. 'Planar Power', I'm not sure what that means- could you go on in a little more detail with this?
planar power is their influence in the planes, like the importance and size of their realms, the amount of serving outsiders, I don't imagine them doing nothing there, but don't want to get into details
planar power is their influence in the planes, like the importance and size of their realms, the amount of serving outsiders, I don't imagine them doing nothing there, but don't want to get into details
-All of that stuff, that would be determined by their power I think, not the other way around. A really powerful deity would (presumably) have a bigger realm and more outsider/petitioner followers than a really weak deity.
-Well, a more powerful deity would have a bigger realm and more followers than a weak follower of his/hers/its. But, yeah, I'll change that.
Call it a sneaking suspicion, but I doubt most followers actually have divine realms. :P
-Technically, going by what little is in the FRCG, Masks' former Chosen have a divine realm all to themselves. It's, apparently, still there, and his Chosen (former) are seen there from time to time.
I do not plan on leaving. I was just saying I think I am so burnt out on the complaining and flaming that I don't get as angry or righteous as I used to get. That may be a good thing at the end of the day.
I’m with ya. Stick with the program, you’re good. ;)
I think Dookie is upset that he isn't getting reported anymore.
Too bad we no longer find him worth the effort. :P
Give me a break.
We have you, don’t we?
I mean, reading your CENSORED takes a hell of a lot of effort. Not that it is actually worth it or anything. ;)
He's just not feeling the hate... which I guess his broken mind interprets as love. :P ;)
I’ll assume that this comes from our other post, which you took personal. And, I can’t blame you—I did apologize, as I saw what I said was harsher than intended.
If you think your views of me represent the masses, then definitely take up the mantle and declare a vote. I’ll leave, should that be what the majority wants.
My mind is not broken, nor am I here for love--real or perceived. I’m just here for fun.
Poor JD... though to be honest, I didn't take those other posts as personal, nor was I upset by them. I just like poking you with sticks. :P
Seriously. Stigger here might be the most easygoing poster on these boards.
He must be from California. All of us East Coast NJ/NY types are just too moody/pi$$y half the time ;).
Poor JD... though to be honest, I didn't take those other posts as personal, nor was I upset by them. I just like poking you with sticks. :P
I'm not sure that I actually believe that, but good to go.
But as 2x4's are my thing, I'll say smile and be happy. :D
---
Dammit, Mrtyl!!! Where the hell is my jager!!
-Get back to the topic.
Yes. Now let's get back on topic please.
One wonders what the DvR of the deity of cough syrup would be... pretty low I'd imagine, considering how bad that stuff tastes. ;)
One wonders what the DvR of the deity of cough syrup would be... pretty low I'd imagine, considering how bad that stuff tastes. ;)
-The deity would have a lot of worshipers...Most of them would probably be pretty impious, though many in the Midwest could worship him/her/it with a great fervor, and his/her/it's portfolio would be fairly low end. So, I am guessing it'd be pretty low as well, given the above formula.
Jager? As in -meister? The cough syrup? icky...
Yes.
You see, a couple broads have been raiding my liquor cabinet. Haven't caught them yet, but I'm gonna.
In the meantime, I am on jager and peach schnapps.
-The deity would have a lot of worshipers...Most of them would probably be pretty impious, though many in the Midwest could worship him/her/it with a great fervor, and his/her/it's portfolio would be fairly low end. So, I am guessing it'd be pretty low as well, given the above formula.
Mr. Karsus!!
Report to the Dookie Office!!!
Which I'd imagine Mystra was in, bad mood that is, after being killed by a stick...
I'm happy, damn you!! Happy!!
...
And Mystra was killed with a twig--not a stick.
As happy as Azuth landing in ol' Azzy's lap I'm sure.
...
...
Topic!! Yes!!
Back on Topic!!
Followers x (fervor x jager shots) x portfolio's remembered after shots = power.
Right?
Topic!! Yes!!
Back on Topic!!
Followers x (fervor x jager shots) x portfolio's remembered after shots = power.
Right?
-Thanks for doing my work for me, there.
-I don't think that alcohol would have much of an impact on the power a deity gets. A person who gets drunk is "pliable", as in you can tell them to do something, and there's a decent chance that they do. So, a person can be made drunk, and then told to worship, say, Shar. Shar would get a little boost for that. But, that prayer would be "worth" very little, I would think. That part about fervor and zealousness, the fact that it's really the alcohol doing the talking minimalizes that part.
-Thanks for doing my work for me, there.
No problem. That's what I'm here for.
-I don't think that alcohol would have much of an impact on the power a deity gets. A person who gets drunk is "pliable", as in you can tell them to do something, and there's a decent chance that they do. So, a person can be made drunk, and then told to worship, say, Shar. Shar would get a little boost for that. But, that prayer would be "worth" very little, I would think. That part about fervor and zealousness, the fact that it's really the alcohol doing the talking minimalizes that part.
Ah! Ha!
But your argument is based on the presumptuous fact that the alcohol is being consumed by a non-believer, or one of limited faith to begin with, and then being coerced by another into serving the faith that they do. In which case, your argument is sound.
But what about the hard core zealot who rarely touches a drop? What happens when they consume 10 shots of jager and get to worshiping?
(Oh, yeah. :zzz
Make that 8 shots.
Ah! Ha!
But your argument is based on the presumptuous fact that the alcohol is being consumed by a non-believer, or one of limited faith to begin with, and then being coerced by another into serving the faith that they do. In which case, your argument is sound.
But what about the hard core zealot who rarely touches a drop? What happens when they consume 10 shots of jager and get to worshiping?
(Oh, yeah. :zzz
Make that 8 shots.
-Hmm...Good point.
-I think, even with a person who worships whatever deity it is truly, if it's the alcohol talking, it "counts" less. Alcohol loosens your inhibitions, and makes you do things you wouldn't normally do. If you are normally "prayer level 2", and the alcohol makes you "prayer level 4" for however long, the rules of metaphysics that govern these things would "know". That's just personal opinion, there. That's something that seems to exist "outside", or in addition to the little formula I made up up there.
-Hmm...Good point.
-I think, even with a person who worships whatever deity it is truly, if it's the alcohol talking, it "counts" less. Alcohol loosens your inhibitions, and makes you do things you wouldn't normally do. If you are normally "prayer level 2", and the alcohol makes you "prayer level 4" for however long, the rules of metaphysics that govern these things would "know". That's just personal opinion, there. That's something that seems to exist "outside", or in addition to the little formula I made up up there.
Well, even if it did increase fervor and power, the CENSORED hangover you would deal with the next morning would definitely take you down to "prayer level 0."
All evens out, I guess.
-All of that stuff, that would be determined by their power I think, not the other way around. A really powerful deity would (presumably) have a bigger realm and more outsider/petitioner followers than a really weak deity.
is Cyric much more powerful than Orcus? can he gain power over Limbo/The Supreme Throne and over the slaad lords who are a bit older
but depends on which cosmology you use
even with mortals, two people of the same level can greatly differ in power
basing their power on just the DvR, D&D rules in this part are way too simplistic
is Cyric much more powerful than Orcus? can he gain power over Limbo/The Supreme Throne and over the slaad lords who are a bit older
-Depends on "which" Cyric we're talking about (Cyric with lots of portfolios, "crazy" Cyric, the "current" Cyric, the imprisoned Cyric), and which Orcus we're talking about (regular Demon Lord Orcus, Tenebrius, "reborn" Orcus).
even with mortals, two people of the same level can greatly differ in power
basing their power on just the DvR, D&D rules in this part are way too simplistic
-Right, at at this point, we're getting into the realm of political power, which my above formula has nothing to do with. If you have two deities, both of whom are DvR 10 let's say, and one sits alone in solitude, while the other has lots of allies and is well liked, and so on, obviously, the latter is going to be more powerful. That's factoring in political power, which can only be "computed" on a case-by-case basis.
best version of Cyric vs. ''whatever year DR he was a demigod in FR (maybe the times of Zhengyi)'' version of Orcus
who would win, neutral ground?
not political power and allies, there are many ways in the planes gods can increase personal power, like Orcus discovered the Last Word, he could have countless other similar tricks up his sleep acquired over the millions of years, that change his stats separately from the DvR thing
I don't know ... too many inconsistencies
-Right, at at this point, we're getting into the realm of political power, which my above formula has nothing to do with. If you have two deities, both of whom are DvR 10 let's say, and one sits alone in solitude, while the other has lots of allies and is well liked, and so on, obviously, the latter is going to be more powerful. That's factoring in political power, which can only be "computed" on a case-by-case basis.
You assume he spent all his time there alone and without communication to others.
The allies he may or may not have are unknown at this point.
let's say
best version of Cyric vs. ''whatever year DR he was a demigod in FR (maybe the times of Zhengyi)'' version of Orcus
who would win, neutral ground?
not political power and allies, there are many ways in the planes gods can increase personal power, like Orcus discovered the Last Word, he could have countless other similar tricks up his sleep acquired over the millions of years, that change his stats separately from the DvR thing
I don't know ... too many inconsistencies
Not sure about that, but, as it applies to my point above, a god that is conscious and willing for a hundred years could have contacted many planes and beings--and made even more promises.