What is it about the 4e god stories such as the Tyr/Helm/Tymora triangle just as the main example, that so bothers people.
I particularly don't get the 'their gods and would never act that way'.
As a fan of classical mythology I prefer my settings deities to be as flawed as the greek or norse pantheons. Why are the FR gods so superior to our real world deities?
I admit for my part that I never use them as characters in game so that helps. But I'm interested to hear why so many others took a stance against a good mythic and tragic love triangle?
Another example, Cyric murdering Mystra if I was running a FR game at the mo would be the story spread by the common folk to explain why she has vanished. After all who better to kill a god than another god, particularly the god of murder.
But like I said I'm interested in your opinion on this.
Hesitate to ask....
What is it about the 4e god stories such as the Tyr/Helm/Tymora triangle just as the main example, that so bothers people.
I particularly don't get the 'their gods and would never act that way'.
As a fan of classical mythology I prefer my settings deities to be as flawed as the greek or norse pantheons. Why are the FR gods so superior to our real world deities?
I admit for my part that I never use them as characters in game so that helps. But I'm interested to hear why so many others took a stance against a good mythic and tragic love triangle?
Another example, Cyric murdering Mystra if I was running a FR game at the mo would be the story spread by the common folk to explain why she has vanished. After all who better to kill a god than another god, particularly the god of murder.
But like I said I'm interested in your opinion on this.
Poor Explanation. they took a paragraph to explain what should have take at least a page to explain. They didn't give back-story to the event, so we didn't get the reasons why the gods were acting this way.
If there was a explanation for their behavour like a prophecy or a secret plan by one or more of the deities involved or even a reaction of the people on Faerun (like a growing positive relationship between Tymora and Tyr or a increase in conflict between priests of Tyr and Helm which happens at the same time), it might have won over the hardcore Realmers.
DMs of the Realms are willing to work on plot hooks, but they would like some kind of structure or rules in what they build. Just saying this event happens and you have to run it make them a little uneasy.
Especially with the Spellplague as there was an adventure which hinted they could stop the events which occurred, only for the words "You still fail, even if you win" to be given to them when the new realms arrived. If they were instead given an adventure where the spellplague happened, but they gain for knowledge and were able to save a number of the people in a hard hit area... it might have been more welcomed because the players would have felt success in their sacrifice.
Just my thoughts...
What is it about the 4e god stories such as the Tyr/Helm/Tymora triangle just as the main example, that so bothers people.
-The context- or rather, the lack thereof. Radical changes require more than a sentence or two to explain in totality.
-The context- or rather, the lack thereof. Radical changes require more than a sentence or two to explain in totality.
So no problems with the event, just with the lack of detail getting there?
but yes the lack of a decent explanation, no 1 or 2 lines.
they killed off some of my favorite gods, namely Eilistraee, Helm and Mystra.
Ne'er liked Tyr but there you go, and even how he died made no real pinto beans either.
it does get old on being given Cop out comments.
while it does bother me that Eilistraee got axed, atleast she got more of a plot, but the reason of
Just how many drow goddesses do you need running around FR ??
just how many goddesses of the moon do you need running around the realms
just how many goddesses of fertility etc....
all said and done:
If I didnt Like it, It never happened
So no problems with the event, just with the lack of detail getting there?
-Anything is plausible. "Strange and fateful misunderstandings" as an explanation doesn't cut it, though. Detail needs to go past this most basic of levels.
A 'good mythic and tragic love triangle', that was built up and was consistent with the long-established nature of the gods in general and these in particular, would be one thing. This was a just cheap, dirty, brazenly artificial plot contrivance. So for me, it was for an undesirable purpose, in an inappropriate context and mode, and poorly executed.
Hesitate to ask....
What is it about the 4e god stories such as the Tyr/Helm/Tymora triangle just as the main example, that so bothers people.
Eh, a lot of different reasons regarding that particular story that have been discussed to death already, including but not limited to: gods acting out of character or taking actions that don't make sense, the "basis" of the story not making sense or at least not being explained (ie. if a god leaves a plane, the "balance" of the plane is somehow thrown off, and that's bad--with no explanation as to why it's bad--and needs to be fixed), the fact that it feels like the story was created with an ulterior agenda in mind (see Faerer's post above).
As a fan of classical mythology I prefer my settings deities to be as flawed as the greek or norse pantheons. Why are the FR gods so superior to our real world deities?
You don't want me to really answer that.;)
Suffice it to say, there's no reason to assume that Ed created these deities to be exactly like specific pantheons from the real world, regardless of the fact that you happen to like those deities and how they acted. Simply put, what you prefer is kind of irrelevant in this case, and we don't all have the same preferences that you do anyway (what you are wrote could be read as "I like my deities this way, so why don't you?", though I won't assume you intended it that way).
So no problems with the event, just with the lack of detail getting there?
Oh, I have serious problems with the story. I just don't feel like writing an essay about it. And I know for a fact Zandilar/Storm Silverhand (a less common poster here) hated the story.
I'm not running a deity campaign. I'm running a campaign of a bunch of mortals in the mortal realm. What matters to me is NOT the various plots and romances of the gods, but their impact on the mortal world.
As such, I don't particularly care that it was Cyric who murdered Mystra--just that the Weave was destroyed and the Spellplague unleashed. I don't care that Tyr killed Helm. I don't care that Sune ran off with one or the other of them. I don't care if Cyric is imprisoned or not--I care that his clerics are still granted spells and think that by doing some crazy stuff they can liberate their deity. It's the CRAZY stuff that I'm concerned about, not the liberating bit. For all I care, Cyric can be sitting on a Calishite beach... it's what his followers believe and act on that matters.
FR should stop focusing on gods and give more attention to the mortals of the world. Fans should do the same.
Eh, a lot of different reasons regarding that particular story that have been discussed to death already, including but not limited to: gods acting out of character or taking actions that don't make sense, the "basis" of the story not making sense or at least not being explained (ie. if a god leaves a plane, the "balance" of the plane is somehow thrown off, and that's bad--with no explanation as to why it's bad--and needs to be fixed), the fact that it feels like the story was created with an ulterior agenda in mind (see Faerer's post above).
I only mention that story because it was the easiest to remember the question was generic, and i suppose one I could have asked occasionally during the 3rd edition era but I didn't play a lot of 3e FR till recently
You don't want me to really answer that.;)
But I do :D . My question isn't one of contention but of genuine curiosity. I only mention my opinion as a contrast and because it's rude to ask without giving.
Suffice it to say, there's no reason to assume that Ed created these deities to be exactly like specific pantheons from the real world, regardless of the fact that you happen to like those deities and how they acted.
True but we don't know he didn't. Unless he pops in to say otherwise. Which would be awesome if unlikely, but his opinion in this case would only be be as relevant as yours or mine. I don't want a definitive answer just other peoples take on the issue at hand.
Simply put, what you prefer is kind of irrelevant in this case, and we don't all have the same preferences that you do anyway (what you are wrote could be read as "I like my deities this way, so why don't you?", though I won't assume you intended it that way).
Of course my preference is irrelevant, at least in the context which I intended the question. I'm not asking why people don't feel or think the way I do about the matter and perhaps I didn't phrase the question well (50 hours without sleep will do that). I only offer my opinion on the matter (one of them anyway) as a starting point.
Oh, I have serious problems with the story. I just don't feel like writing an essay about it. And I know for a fact Zandilar/Storm Silverhand (a less common poster here) hated the story.
Doesn't have to be an essay, my interest is genuine and I don't intend to argue peoples opinions since that wasn't the point of posting. I may question elements for clarification but thats all. I have to say I'm not the greatest fan of where FR has gone with 4e, but without going into details my issues are substantially different than 99.9% of the other posters here and don't stop me having fun with some adventure ideas. However I'm pretty easygoing about these things and recognize that others aren't
My post here in this thread is all about, to try and phrase this in a better way...
'Taking a new look at some of the God/Goddess stories being told in the FRCG why in particular do people feel that these stories are improbable at best or somehow impossible with the respective deities involved? Using a real world perspective where many of our own myths feature divine beings in similar or worse situations why not the deities of the Realms?'
I am very interested in peoples opinions on this but please don't take it as a queue to bash authors or designers or even fans. As the Vulcan credo goes IDIC (google it non trekkies).
WHO CARES?
I'm not running a deity campaign. I'm running a campaign of a bunch of mortals in the mortal realm. What matters to me is NOT the various plots and romances of the gods, but their impact on the mortal world.
As such, I don't particularly care that it was Cyric who murdered Mystra--just that the Weave was destroyed and the Spellplague unleashed. I don't care that Tyr killed Helm. I don't care that Sune ran off with one or the other of them. I don't care if Cyric is imprisoned or not--I care that his clerics are still granted spells and think that by doing some crazy stuff they can liberate their deity. It's the CRAZY stuff that I'm concerned about, not the liberating bit. For all I care, Cyric can be sitting on a Calishite beach... it's what his followers believe and act on that matters.
FR should stop focusing on gods and give more attention to the mortals of the world. Fans should do the same.
I NEVER EVER USE THE GODS AS CHARACTERS! Irritates the hell out of when adventures do (2e I'm looking at you). However in a setting where divine elements are real the things that occur off screen have a massive impact on the mortal characters. Such as doing the crazy stuff you mentioned to free Cyric. The Cyricists only believe he needs freeing because he murdered Mystra. I treat the God stories in game much as our ancestors might have in hearing stories about their gods.
it matters cause it shows how much creativity 4e designers have, or how hard they worked and were motivated, world of gods reflects the world of mortals
This is entirely subjective however and irrelevant to the context of the question.
FR should stop focusing on gods and give more attention to the mortals of the world. Fans should do the same.
I would be extremely obliged if you would stop telling me (and others) what I should and should not focus on. Thank you.
That said, I actually agree with most of Lady Rin's points above. I could go into detail but, to be honest, in my case most of it is down to personal preference (which gods got the axe as opposed to those who survived) and I do not believe that my own preferences should have an effect on the way others enjoy the Realms.
WHO CARES?
-I do.
True but we don't know he didn't. Unless he pops in to say otherwise. Which would be awesome if unlikely, but his opinion in this case would only be be as relevant as yours or mine.
-He has. An except of his opinion on the 4e changes and such, specifically concerning the behavior of various deities: "...Those don’t sound like MY gods. :}..."
-He has. An except of his opinion on the 4e changes and such, specifically concerning the behavior of various deities: "...Those don’t sound like MY gods. :}..."
I'd love to hear his opinions in detail. However I imagine the political landscape makes that difficult.
I don't think his opinion changes though. It's probably similar to most in that there are elements he likes and elements he doesn't. At the end of the day however he's bound to have a Realms in his head that he prefers and bears a greater resemblance to the grey box set.
Credits for the best realms edition ever (IMHO)
Graphic Design: Stephanie Tabat
Calligraphy (Runes, Sigils, Languages): Paula M. Holz
Design: Ed Greenwood
Design and Development: Jeff Grubb
Editing: Karen S. Martin
Cover Art: Keith Parkinson
Deity/Faith Symbols: David E. Martin
Typography: Betty Elmore
Interior Art: Jeff Easley, Keith Parkinson, Tim Conrad
Cartography: Diesel, Dave Sutherland, Dennis & Ron Kauth
This is and always will be the Realms I know and love but we're probably getting off topic...
True but we don't know he didn't.
Why do you say so? Ed has discussed his avoidance of imitating Earth culture and religion at length; it's one of the design pillars of the setting, one that it suited Wizards to bring up and stay more or less true to this time round.
I'd love to hear his opinions in detail. However I imagine the political landscape makes that difficult.
It's no mystery: if you read "Down-to-earth divinity" in Dragon #54, Faiths & Avatars, and the relevant postings here, you'll get a strong idea of the actual nature of Realms divinity, and you can compare the latter-day shenanigans for yourself.
Why do you say so? Ed has discussed his avoidance of imitating Earth culture and religion at length; it's one of the design pillars of the setting, one that it suited Wizards to bring up and stay more or less true to this time round.It's no mystery: if you read "Down-to-earth divinity" in Dragon #54, Faiths & Avatars, and the relevant postings here, you'll get a strong idea of the actual nature of Realms divinity, and you can compare the latter-day shenanigans for yourself.
Can we not play guess Mr Greenwood's thoughts? I have the issue somewhere and I'm familiar with Candlekeep. However none of that is relevant to the actual question.
Who's guessing? My point is that they're readily available, and verifiable in the few cases when they're not.
And 90% written years ago, opinions evolve and can hardly be applied to matters written years later except as an indicator only. Look I'm not saying your wrong, but unless he comes along to post personally I'm not interested in others interpretations of his statements.
WHO CARES?
I'm not running a deity campaign. I'm running a campaign of a bunch of mortals in the mortal realm. What matters to me is NOT the various plots and romances of the gods, but their impact on the mortal world.
As such, I don't particularly care that it was Cyric who murdered Mystra--just that the Weave was destroyed and the Spellplague unleashed. I don't care that Tyr killed Helm. I don't care that Sune ran off with one or the other of them. I don't care if Cyric is imprisoned or not--I care that his clerics are still granted spells and think that by doing some crazy stuff they can liberate their deity. It's the CRAZY stuff that I'm concerned about, not the liberating bit. For all I care, Cyric can be sitting on a Calishite beach... it's what his followers believe and act on that matters.
FR should stop focusing on gods and give more attention to the mortals of the world. Fans should do the same.
So even though some of us have serious problems with the story, the motives behind creating it and the impression it leaves on the reader, we should all just decide not to care and keep our mouths shut?
We shouldn't care because you don't? That's your argument?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. And after all, we were specifically asked to give our opinions on this topic. It's rather silly to tell us to shut up* when all we are doing is answering the OP's question.
*That's how your post reads to me anyway...
I only mention that story because it was the easiest to remember the question was generic, and i suppose one I could have asked occasionally during the 3rd edition era but I didn't play a lot of 3e FR till recently
For the record, the story behind the "pruning of the drow gods" bothers me for reasons I mentioned above. Same goes for the seemingly arbitrary war Moradin launched on some of his kin. It's hard to get away from the impression that stories (or lore tidbits that weren't really even stories) were written because designers wanted fewer gods. I never had a problem with the number of gods in the setting and I liked, or at least saw good potential in, many of the gods who are now gone. Therefore, I feel no particular inclination to applaud this move on WotC's part, or even enjoy these stories for what they are.
I DO agree with Yakman that the setting should be focused on mortals, not gods. I don't believe that means I shouldn't care about what WotC *does* do with the gods.
But I do :D . My question isn't one of contention but of genuine curiosity. I only mention my opinion as a contrast and because it's rude to ask without giving.
Understood.
As for me really answering your question ("Why are Faerun's gods better than our gods?"), I appreciate your interest, but I'm going to have to decline, as my answer has to do with my real life beliefs.True but we don't know he didn't. Unless he pops in to say otherwise. Which would be awesome if unlikely, but his opinion in this case would only be be as relevant as yours or mine. I don't want a definitive answer just other peoples take on the issue at hand.
See Faraer's posts. Anyway, I think Ed Greenwood's opinion matters because he is the one who created most of these deities in the first place, and he also set the tone for how they are supposed to act (with each other as well as with mortals).
Of course my preference is irrelevant, at least in the context which I intended the question. I'm not asking why people don't feel or think the way I do about the matter and perhaps I didn't phrase the question well (50 hours without sleep will do that). I only offer my opinion on the matter (one of them anyway) as a starting point.
That's fine.
Lack of sleep will certainly do that to a person...Doesn't have to be an essay, my interest is genuine and I don't intend to argue peoples opinions since that wasn't the point of posting. I may question elements for clarification but thats all. I have to say I'm not the greatest fan of where FR has gone with 4e, but without going into details my issues are substantially different than 99.9% of the other posters here and don't stop me having fun with some adventure ideas. However I'm pretty easygoing about these things and recognize that others aren't
Arawn, I have no doubt at all that your interest is genuine.
Anyway, I pretty much summed up my main thoughts already.
I forgot to add, however, that like some others I found the portrayal of Tymora in the story (which wasn't really a "love" story, mind--it's about an arranged marriage and the word "love" isn't even mentioned), which I thought was out of character for her and also a bit sexist. It seemed to me like this goddess (who is known for being both free-spirited and not the type who would get strongly attached to any one particular lover) was being passed around like a piece of meat, and it's never even mentioned what *her* opinion on what's going on is. She doesn't even seem to have an opinion, she just passively goes along with Sune's suggested marriage, even after Tyr kills Helm. She feels sad about it...but just goes home with Tyr anyway!'Taking a new look at some of the God/Goddess stories being told in the FRCG why in particular do people feel that these stories are improbable at best or somehow impossible with the respective deities involved? Using a real world perspective where many of our own myths feature divine beings in similar or worse situations why not the deities of the Realms?'[/i]
Again, I think it's best not to bring my real world perspective into this. ;) I don't want to open that can of worms.
I am very interested in peoples opinions on this but please don't take it as a queue to bash authors or designers or even fans. As the Vulcan credo goes IDIC (google it non trekkies).
Well, consider my opinion submitted for consideration.
So even though some of us have serious problems with the story, the motives behind creating it and the impression it leaves on the reader, we should all just decide not to care and keep our mouths shut?
We shouldn't care because you don't? That's your argument?
Sorry, but I don't buy that. And after all, we were specifically asked to give our opinions on this topic. It's rather silly to tell us to shut up* when all we are doing is answering the OP's question.
*That's how your post reads to me anyway...
sorry for not being clear.
how it was supposed to read was: "I wish that people would stop clamoring for more stories about deities, so that WotC would respond by producing less material about gods and more about the things that are happening on the ground in Faerun."
sorry for not being clear.
how it was supposed to read was: "I wish that people would stop clamoring for more stories about deities, so that WotC would respond by producing less material about gods and more about the things that are happening on the ground in Faerun."
Apology accepted, and yes, I get you now.
Gods in mythology do act like idiots sometimes, and just like in FR, we get a lot of contradictory information. Now, I can say that those gods weren't built from the ground-up to work in a game setting, and therefore didn't require more logical mechanics... but I won't. ;)
Here's the thing - we have esablished what certain gods are about, in canon, and how that act, and what their porfolios are. That means we do indeed have far more 'technical' data on these gods then we do on mythological ones.
The problem is that once you establish a precedent in a game-system (since that's what FR is supposed to be, first and foremost), having something happen that 'breaks' those mechanics becomes an inconsistency. Now, RW religions (which all mythologies are/were) don't need to be all that consistent, because they can just blame it on 'beyond mortal comprehension'.
We can't do that - this is a game, and we need to know why something happens that shouldn't be possible according to earlier lore.
Sune - the goddess of love - forcing someone into a loveless marriage, and then Tyr - a god of justice - wrongfully accussing and killing a friend - just doesn't wash... AT ALL.
Its poor design, plain and simple.
Now, thats not to say that a really great back-story couldn't explain-away all the weirdness involved in the Deicides, but we didn't get any, which tells us that they don't know themselves, or 'just couldn't be bothered'.
The closest thing we got to an explanation was pretty bad, and was only an 'interpretation of a vision' anyway, which just adds fuel to the fire.
What they need to do is hire an Elaine-calibur author (which could be RAS or Ed or even Paul Kemp), who knows the Realms well, to write a novel about how and why the things in the heavens took place the way they did.
Even in mythiolgy, we get explanations as to why Hera had it in for Hercules - if we were simply told "she went after him" and were given no reasons, I think even the ancient Greeks would have thought it a little odd.
We weren't given stories, we were given OUTCOMES, and thats just bad design, IMHO.
We weren't given stories, we were given OUTCOMES...
-That's a good way to put it. Better than what I said, with "no context".
Sune - the goddess of love - forcing someone into a loveless marriage, and then Tyr - a god of justice - wrongfully accussing and killing a friend - just doesn't wash... AT ALL.
I'll admit that I have no problem with the god of justice doing doing unjust things, Tyr himself is a good example in Norse myth and the same goes for the goddess of love in that regards.
We weren't given stories, we were given OUTCOMES, and thats just bad design, IMHO.
Now this I can definitely see and might even agree with a bit.
I'll admit that I have no problem with the god of justice doing doing unjust things, Tyr himself is a good example in Norse myth and the same goes for the goddess of love in that regards.
-As long as he has a specific reason for it, anyway, I can agree. Otherwise, I don't. Tyr, let's say, should be doing "justice things" always, but sometimes...
-As long as he has a specific reason for it, anyway, I can agree. Otherwise, I don't. Tyr, let's say, should be doing "justice things" always, but sometimes...
This is probably the heart of my point in that he may have been doing an injustice in the name of a greater perceived justice.
Or to use an example from the RW myth, lying to the Fenris Wolf, who was not guilty of any wrong doing and a companion to the gods at this point to get him locked away for eternity (or at least they hoped) and prevent Ragnarok.
Remember that Fenris is comparatively a child at this point, innocent of any crimes and even accepted amongst the Aesir at this time.
Yes Tyr has a reason for it, but is it truly just?
Now going back to the Helm example, and I hate to use the most contentious one, he believes that Helm has done him a great wrong and in true mediaeval style duels him. Now whilst I would like more backstory to better understand how we got there it's not an inconceivable development. Personally I agree with Rin(?) in that I'm more curious in how Tymora got herself betrothed to Tyr?!? Mismatch or what?
And before someone points out that Helm is/was LN & Tyr LG we should consider that they do not have access to each others stats and why should the Gods be less able to do stupid things than their followers? Theres a philosophy argument there somewhere :D .
For me at least I like the gods to have human flaws, it makes them more approachable and easier for my players to identify with. YMMV of course but I like hearing differing opinions as it helps me to clarify my own to myself, so thanks ;) .
Please note that in clarifying my own stance in comparison to LK (although I don't think we're really on that different a page) I'm not taking a right/wrong approach, I'd still very much like to hear how other people feel about these new FR myths and why they do/don't work for them.
There are no wrong opinions. And since the facts aren't in dispute no grounds for contention.
Later days
Please note that in clarifying my own stance in comparison to LK (although I don't think we're really on that different a page)...
-No, we're on the same page, here. What I meant was, unless he has a reason to not do so (whatever that reason that may be), Tyr should be doing "justice things". And, personally, those reasons for not doing "justice things" should be fairly limited in occurrences. Otherwise, just make him the deity of "non-justice things" and call it a day.
-No, we're on the same page, here. What I meant was, unless he has a reason to not do so (whatever that reason that may be), Tyr should be doing "justice things". And, personally, those reasons for not doing "justice things" should be fairly limited in occurrences. Otherwise, just make him the deity of "non-justice things" and call it a day.
You realise I now NEED a deity of non-Justice :D . Lets call him Ryt.
I think this is where Markustay had a good point though, in only giving us a short summary or the outcome they made it difficult for many people to see how the story developed. Not just Tyr's either.
The way my brain works (sometimes ;) ) I don't really have an issue with this and I'll accomodate brevity, but it's not the best example of FR writing either.
They shouldn't have divorced the destination from the journey.
You realise I now NEED a deity of non-Justice :D . Lets call him Ryt.
-Ryt works. The opposite of 'justice' is...Hmm...Maybe 'Tyranny', and that's Bane's foothold there.
Bane may be unjust, but at least he has rules.
Personally I agree with Rin(?) in that I'm more curious in how Tymora got herself betrothed to Tyr?!? Mismatch or what?
I think so.
Anyway, a marriage between Tyr and Tymora was suggested by Sune (a goddess of LOVE, not necessarily marriage) in order to "restore balance" to Tyr's plane. It is not explained why Sune thought that was a great idea.As a fan of classical mythology I prefer my settings deities to be as flawed as the greek or norse pantheons.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, I love a god with humanizing elements. Also Tyr is a Norse god, he was also on the Rock of Bral for those that remember Spelljammer. I find it hard to believe he would be gone even if killed.
I first played FR in 1987 when the Grey Box came out. It has been the mainstay of my fantasy gaming ever since. And despite 2nd editions flaws my favorite characters were born there. A goodly number of which were paladins of Tyr.
And that's were it gets personal. As players in a realm where faith was power (faith in magic, faith in gods, faith in self) the gods we venerate were very important to us. They reflected the ideals and morals that a particular character held dear. So left with little to no explanation as to what happened we are left with a cognitive dissonance (an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously). 1. I know and love the Realms and its gods. 2. I do not know these Realms nor love its gods.
on the other hand, an anarchy has nothing of the sort.
true, but injustice at least presumes some system--however flawed--for seeking redress for greivances.
on the other hand, an anarchy has nothing of the sort.
-Right, which is why I said that 'Chaos' wouldn't be a very good opposite of Justice. If you want the opposite of 'Justice'- 'Injustice'- there'd have to be a system to seek redress for grievances, as you say. With complete anarchy, there isn't a system to do so, so it is not possible to begin with.
-Right, which is why I said that 'Chaos' wouldn't be a very good opposite of Justice. If you want the opposite of 'Justice'- 'Injustice'- there'd have to be a system to seek redress for grievances, as you say. With complete anarchy, there isn't a system to do so, so it is not possible to begin with.
i would respond.... but i think we are a bit off topic.