It's really a beautiful book though, and I like that it's all lore and fluff and no mechanics.
I would have really appreciated a decent index/appendix though.
OK.
The descent seems to have changed. It's now about the fact that Aryvandaar is attacking other elves (green elves), and the Ilythiiri try to defend themselves. The Ilythiiri get desperate and turn to darker powers as their only hope to protect themselves(and to avenge the Miyetari who didn't stand a chance, and are hiding in fear from the nazi-like regime of aryvandaar. That seem right? so it's focused on the people more than the religious explanations. This is cool, ok, and awesome, but what I don't get is:
Page 10: -17600 DR. Corellon Larethian is supposedly going to 'protect' the elves from Lolth. but Lolth is Araushnee still(Corellon's Lover/Wife), and is still part of the Seldarine - she has yet to betray him, and becoem Lolth, which happens around the same time as the high elves turning the Miyetari and Ilythiiri into drow... The descent has yet to occur.
Someone explain what I'm missing if they can.
and what are your thoughts on AGHotR?
The War of the Seldarine wherein Araushnee is cast down and transformed into Lolth occurs circa -30,000 DR. This is described in the novel Evermeet by Elaine Cunningham.
what are your thoughts on AGHotR?
I think it's the best Forgotten Realms book EVER.
OK. I have the book, and some things just don't make sense to me.
It's really a beautiful book though, and I like that it's all lore and fluff and no mechanics.
I would have really appreciated a decent index/appendix though.
OK.
The descent seems to have changed. It's now about the fact that Aryvandaar is attacking other elves (green elves), and the Ilythiiri try to defend themselves. The Ilythiiri get desperate and turn to darker powers as their only hope to protect themselves(and to avenge the Miyetari who didn't stand a chance, and are hiding in fear from the nazi-like regime of aryvandaar. That seem right? so it's focused on the people more than the religious explanations. This is cool, ok, and awesome, but what I don't get is:
Page 10: -17600 DR. Corellon Larethian is supposedly going to 'protect' the elves from Lolth. but Lolth is Araushnee still(Corellon's Lover/Wife), and is still part of the Seldarine - she has yet to betray him, and becoem Lolth, which happens around the same time as the high elves turning the Miyetari and Ilythiiri into drow... The descent has yet to occur.
Someone explain what I'm missing if they can.
and what are your thoughts on AGHotR?
The Ilythiiri are only using the Aryvandaar invasions and the explanation of avenging their cousins as a excuse to launch their own invasions to expand their territory, they coudn't care less about their cousins in the north, they just make nice martyrs. As for Lolth, when she fell she just lurked in the abyss as a spider demon lord for some millenia and didn't actually become the queen of spiders until the Fourth Crown War, when she gained the following of desperate Ilythiiri who turned to her for aid.
Are you sure about the just expanding thing? cause from what I read out of the book they came across as just looking for a way to defend themselves, and picked demons, undead, and lolth over being destroyed.
The miyeritari totally got screwed by everyone didn't they. They just wanted to be left alone. :P Then the Gold Elves attack them, the Ilythiiri 'help' them, and then they get cursed along with the ilythiiri. I feel bad for the buggers.
Don't be so quick to judge the Illythiir - they weren't the nicest folks in the world, but they were living peacably with the Wood Elves for TWO MILLENIUM before the Eladrin (Gold and Silver) Elves showed up and started making war on everyone (starting with the dragons).
Look at them like the North Korea of the Realms - "Just leave us the hell alone, and we won't rip your face off". Be careful when you prod a wild animal with a stick.
I think it's the best Forgotten Realms book EVER.
Geee... I wonder why?
;) :P
Mind you, the Illythiir NEVER attacked anyone until after the Elves from Faerie showed up and started raising a Rukus.
Don't be so quick to judge the Illythiir - they weren't the nicest folks in the world, but they were living peacably with the Wood Elves for TWO MILLENIUM before the Eladrin (Gold and Silver) Elves showed up and started making war on everyone (starting with the dragons).
Look at them like the North Korea of the Realms - "Just leave us the hell alone, and we won't rip your face off". Be careful when you prod a wild animal with a stick.
Geee... I wonder why?
;) :P
The feeling I always had was that those wood elves were second class citizens and that they were treated poorly by the Illythiir. Like you said, not nice folk, and maybe just looking for an excuse to expand their influence.
Like I said, you go poking your nose into a Bear's cave, you deserve what you get. ;)
Always remember though that the Crown wars started in the NORTH, and didn't involve the Illythiir until Dark Elves were killed/subjugated.
Like I said, you go poking your nose into a Bear's cave, you deserve what you get. ;)
And the Illythiir chose not to go after those that had attacked their people (note, not allies) but after a group that had nothing to do with the Elves that started it all. The war in the north was a thin pretext to do what they wanted to do anyway. They took advantage of the first crown war to ensure that their own conquest wouldn't face a larger coalition of Elven nations.
Hmmm.... no parallels with any current real world wars there....
Mind you, the Illythiir NEVER attacked anyone until after the Elves from Faerie showed up and started raising a Rukus.
-Wrong, of course, because the Ilythiiri enslaved and subjugated by the Green Elves (What I call Wood Elves, and what would cannonically be called Wild Elves) in Atorrnash, before the Elves from Tintageer arrived.
The Illythiir were a kind and gentle folk, never bothering anyone.
Then that Warmonger Sharlario showed up at their door, demanding fealty.
Did you read anything about the Dark Elves trespasing all over the other Elves lands? NO, you did not. Sharlario and his filthy bastard son went poking their nose in other people's business. Ka'Narlist the Just would have been in the right to have those spies skinned alive, but instead - because he was a kind and gentle man - he decided to set them free.
that was his first mistake - trusting Faerie Elves was his last - the cowardly lot wouldn't face him on the battlefield, so they Sundered the continent and dropped his city (which also housed green Elves, Wemics, and many others), to the bottom of the sea.
Elves are good at that - pretending friendship and then drowning you when your back is turned.
Is that the kind of rubbish the Evermeet liars are trying to push dowen people's throats these days?
Read the book! The Gold and Silver Elves were INVADERS from another plane!
In fact, now we know they weren't even elves - they were some other race called Eladrin that just passed themselves off as Elves to gain anyone's trust.
they sound worst then the Unseen...
Yeah, and I am sure Ka'Narlist acquired that necklace with the sea elves souls in it, IIRC, by doing battle with the fiend who forged it, and being unable to destroy it, only wore it to prevent it falling into the wrong hands.
See?! Now you Understand!! :D
besides, sea-Elves aren't really people...
They're more like Sushi...
-Why do I feel like I am watching Bill O'Riley on the TV?
18DELTA :P
And as a member of one of those groups a group of elves drowned I can understand that take on it. Although I blame "emperor" Dharien more than the elves for the destruction of Jhaamdath.
Where des it say they enslaved green Elves?
-In a metagame context, Evermeet: Island of the Elves says this. In an in-game context, the research Danillo Thann did on the ancient Elves proves this.
Is that the kind of rubbish the Evermeet liars are trying to push dowen people's throats these days?
-:embarrass
-Why do I feel like I am watching Bill O'Riley on the TV?
18DELTA :P
-The Spin Stops Here. Mark, he's like a DJ turntable. :P
Is there something evil about that?
Because if there is, you just called the United States evil. :P
Because if there is, you just called the United States evil. :P
Well, at least the government;) Not as much evil as practical in my opinion at least.
I highly doubt the Ilythiiri started out an evil people, ambitious perhaps, and wanting to spread the glory of their nation, but not evil.
They only became "evil" so to say when they grew desperate and made a deal with Lolth through Wendonai (some even earlier with Ghanadhaur).
@Karsus: The Mulhorandi keep slaves as well, are you calling them evil? cause last I recall they were ruled over by a LG Pharoah (at least until the Spellplague). The "enslavement" was probably just a social element in the society and not out of true malice. The relationship most likely stretches back far before the elves even emerged in Faerun and in a way mimicks the relationship the Qualinesti/Silvanesti in DL have with the Kagonesti. Slavery dosen't make you evil.
I highly doubt the Ilythiiri started out an evil people, ambitious perhaps, and wanting to spread the glory of their nation, but not evil.
They only became "evil" so to say when they grew desperate and made a deal with Lolth through Wendonai (some even earlier with Ghanadhaur).
-From the beginning, they worshiped primarily Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, and Eilistraee. With evil a tangible, actual thing, it doesn't look too good for them from the get go.
The "enslavement" was probably just a social element in the society and not out of true malice.
-The difference is that the Ilythiiri did it out of malice. Killed Wemic tribes because Ka'Narlist could, "took" the magic from the Aquatic Elves (possibly) because Ka'Narlist could, performed 'medical experiments' that yielded terrible creatures because Ka'Narlist could...
So... you are basing ALL of your Dark Elven perceptions on Ka'Narlist, hmmmm?
One, and only one, that we know about?
Okay, form now on I'm basing all of my perceptions on Kymil Nimesin, or perhaps Elaith Craulnober (sp?)...
After all, its only fair to judge the entire race by only one we know, right, and I'm using two examples, making me TWICE as fair in my assessment. :P
Amazing how much you guess at by reading a sentence or two about a single man.
So... you are basing ALL of your Dark Elven perceptions on Ka'Narlist, hmmmm?
One, and only one, that we know about?
After all he got children with Lolth herself and what is told there, the offspring of them brought the entire race, now called drow, to the evil. In the end it is said that through their worship for Lolth they got complete evil and wanted to make a little genocide with the rest of the elves. On the way they even killed and enslaved some dwarves who made their homes underground and happened to be in the way.
He was just hittin' that. ;)
And Drow were created by ELVES, not gods, and certainly NOT Lolth.
And Drow were created by ELVES, not gods, and certainly NOT Lolth.
I know, I used the name a little bit ahead of time, with now i meant, now present days anno 1375(in a few days 1479?)
By the way, is this new Realms Lore or is this only for the core books and world there?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071221
Seriously; do you think she would have bore a mortal's children? Can you just imagine her in labor? Not to mention she doesn't make a very good mother... or Grandmother... for that matter.
I think that was use 'metaphorically' (if at all - I can't find it - glad I got one of the few good copies). :P
Dark Elves =/= Evil
Certain Dark Elven leaders = Evil
Enter Lolth, that demon, and whoever else they (the nobility) turned to during the early wars, and soon you have an entire society that was corrupted (slowly, over time). Drow are wholly evil (with Drizzt being an abeirration), but dark Elves weren't. If anything, Liriel was more like what the original Dark Elves were like, and she was VERY self-serving, but not neccessarily evil (although she could go either way, depending on how the circumstnaces suited her, which sounds more 'true neutral' then anything else).
I really don't see much - if any - difference between the original dark Elves and the Grugach (Wild Elves) - both were xenophobic and tended to keep to themselves (except for the Miyeritar, but they were exceptional), violently repelling all intruders.
As time went on, the race was corrupted, but they weren't always that way.
-We've spun in circles for hours...I learned the waltz from this guy right here.
I'm a terrible dancer - no rythm what-so-ever.
Anyhow, I'm willing to concede that by the end of the Crown Wars the Dark Elves had become Drow, fully and irrevocably (and I'm not just talking skin/hair/eye color).
I just don't understand why you can't concede that they weren't always evil - the Fey placed the Dark and Green elves on Toril together, for whatever clandestine purpose (to kill the Dragons?), and at the time they were placed there I doubt there was any difference between the two groups. The only one I can see (and this is pure conjecture on my part) is that although both were primitive, tribal groups (with chestnut-colored skin), the Green Elves were sedentary, whereas the dark Elves were nomadic.
In fact, I'm even thinking that they were all one big group that slowly seperated over tribal lines, and the Grugach were actually an amalgam of the two major branches of the Sylvan elves - they became sedentary like other Wood Elves, but chose to retain the more agressive (primitive?) warrior culture of the Dark Elves.
You see the 'evil' dark Elves attacking their nearby Wood-Elven neighbors, whereas I prefer to see different Sylvan tribal groups having territorial dissagreements, VERY much like the American Indians. The Wood Elves were like the Iroquois, the Dark Elves like the Apache (or Comanche), and the Grugach like the Blackfoot.
Anyhow, its all how we want to look at it, and your looking through the rose-colored glasses of an Elf-lover, whereas I''m seeing through the mind's eye of a dark -Elf afficionado. ;)
I'm sure the Dark Elves thought they were the 'good guys' - history favors the winners.
Huh?
I'm a terrible dancer - no rythm what-so-ever.
-That must be why I'm a terrible dancer, too. Well, truthfully, I've never tried, but...I have rhythm, though. It's hard being a Marching Band Drum Line leader without that.
18DELTA
Its our leaders who keep pushing us into unwanted wars.
Who knows? Maybe the Illythiir Leaders told their people the other other Elves had 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' - I've heard of leaders lying to their people before. :P
Ok, maybe they started out as good-ish, but they went rather quickly and easily down a bad path. And when the Illythiir lashed out at the other groups, other dark elves didn't stand up and try to stop them, did they? Other Sun, Moon and Wood elves stood up to the Vyshaanti.
No-one ever said they were 'good' - at least not by 'western' standards. We people of European decent seem to couch everything in terms of our own morality.
Like I've said numerous times before - when you think Dark Elf/Ilyythiir, think Klingon. The humans and the Klingons (in Star Trek) fought and were bitter enemies for over a century, until the humans finally understood 'the Klingon way'. Klingons weren't evil, but the were warlike - it had to do with honor and tradition (something along similar line of oriental/Samurai traditions).
Great Plains American Indian Tribes were that way as well - the Europeans took them as a bunch of 'viscious savages', when in truth, it was the Europeans who were the more bloodthirsty. When Indians made war, it was considered much more honorable to capture an enemy, then kill him (there's your Green Elf 'slaves', BTW, LK ;) ).
Indians would treat the captives with dignity and respect, and in time a captive could earn a place in the tribe. Thats not the practices of an evil people - just a practical one. Life is harsh for nomads, and people are just another 'resource' not to be wasted.
Don't mistake practicality with evil - the Illythiir did what they did because they were outnumbered and felt threatened. Weather they were justified or just paranoid is lost to history, but never judge a people by the stupid mistakes committed by their leaders.
Germany, anyone? ;)
Remember LK, only a single tribe (the Ilythiiri, and even then I'd say it was only the elite rulling class of that society) of elves worshiped those fell gods. The vast majority elves in that period worshiped (mostly-) benign fey powers.
-E:IoE makes it very clear that the ruling elite worshiped Ghaunadaur, while the rest of the 'unwashed masses' worshiped Vhaeraun on the whole scale. Mind you, I'm obviously only talking about the Dark Elves.
Odd I thought you would have been a invoker equivalent :D but ive never played in ancient netheril - too many weird things :P
-E:IoE makes it very clear that the ruling elite worshiped Ghaunadaur, while the rest of the 'unwashed masses' worshiped Vhaeraun on the whole scale. Mind you, I'm obviously only talking about the Dark Elves.
Vhaeraun I could see - he was very practical (self-serving), and wasn't above switching sides when he thought he could gain an advantage.
That, I can see - he wasn't the absolute evil that Lolth and Ghaunadar were/are. If a good deal of the race had the mindset of 'looking out for number one', and they interpreted "number one" to me their own tribe, then I could see such a thing without them being wholly evil.
Do you consider Dwarves evil? I was reading through Dwarves Deep last night (I've only read certain sections before), and they've done some pretty horrendous things as well... yet, no one considers the Dwarven Race 'wholly evil".
Sometimes you just got do what you gotta do to survive.
-E:IoE makes it very clear that the ruling elite worshiped Ghaunadaur, while the rest of the 'unwashed masses' worshiped Vhaeraun on the whole scale. Mind you, I'm obviously only talking about the Dark Elves.
-But doesn't A Grand History of the Realms retcon that?
-Considering that A Grand History came after E:IoE, wouldn't the newer book's lore supercede the other book?
18DELTA
To tell the truth, the only difference I tuly see between the Dark Elves and the Gold Elves is that the Gold Elves won, and the Dark Elves were cursed and sent below.
Just like opposites attract, sometimes we dislike others because we recognize traits buried within ourselves. ;)
Maybe the Gold Elves saw something in the Dark Elves they just couldn't abide - something they could SO easily become.
Do you consider Dwarves evil?
-Certain ones, like Derro and Duergar, yes. They're evil. Apart from them, I can't tell you much about the other Dwarven subraces. I know that they are not listed as having an evil alignment wholesale, so that's a step in the right direction for them.
-But doesn't A Grand History of the Realms retcon that?
-No. What part?
Just as no-one is going to convince me that the Dark Elves were 'born bad', neither are any of us going to convince LK that they weren't an evil race from the beginning.
-I never said they were an evil race, as in inherently evil. They're a race that does/did bad things, and as such, were evil.