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Greater Gods, Gods and Exarchs

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
belegan
Feb 15, 2009 2:14:08 Hi all,

we recently fast-forwarded our campaign to 1485 DR (we're using a homebrewed 3.5 set of rules) and that includes the changes to the Pantheon.
Now one of my players plays a fighter/rogue who worships Hoar, one of the deities who now serves Bane. And then he asks me "How does my character feel about this - can he sense any changes?" Now normally I would say yes, but I'm confused about this because of the small entry "Hidden Hand of Fate" on a group of Hoar worshippers in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in the Dalelands chapter, where it says that the priests of Hoar are not aware that they indirectly serve Bane now, believing that they still serve Torm, something which ammuses Bane.
So i'm not quite sure how to handle this, normally I would say that the priests of any given deity would be able to sense any changes to their God, but since the priests of Hoar does not know, what about the non-priest worshippers of deities?
#2
drizztsmanchild
Feb 15, 2009 2:57:58 Well IMO no. Simply because the non-priest followers tend to get information from their priests as they are the "voice" of their god per se. Now granted there are some priest in every religion that are corrupt and care about lining their pockets more than spreading theii gods word. But if the "canon" source says that the majority of the priests don't know then I would go with that. Unless you're not a "canon" type of guy.
#3
belegan
Feb 15, 2009 3:18:02
Well IMO no. Simply because the non-priest followers tend to get information from their priests as they are the "voice" of their god per se. Now granted there are some priest in every religion that are corrupt and care about lining their pockets more than spreading theii gods word. But if the "canon" source says that the majority of the priests don't know then I would go with that. Unless you're not a "canon" type of guy.

I'm the canon type of guy, which is why I wanted to see what others have done. I still don't get why the priests shouldn't be aware of major changes in their deity.
#4
drizztsmanchild
Feb 15, 2009 3:34:46
I'm the canon type of guy, which is why I wanted to see what others have done. I still don't get why the priests shouldn't be aware of major changes in their deity.

Well one of the reasons could be that the deity himself hasn't changed(no matter who he serves now). Or he may have changed so slightly over these 100 yrs that it wouldn't be register among the priests. But this is my opinion and since I don't actually play that much I'll accede this question to more knowledgable posters on here.
#5
suin_bahhar_02
Feb 15, 2009 8:13:51 Hoar's priests, divine champions and paladins are loners most of the time. There is almost no formal structure in the priesthood, and information is scarse at best. Most of his followers are vigilantes for the common folk, and are adamant on achieving "true justice", i.e. a very personalised view of revenge through poetic justice. Eye for an eye. This view is kind of evil in it self, but its a neccesary evil that serves a purpose to retain order.

The PC sounds like a lone vigilante type aswell so he will just go about his life following Hoar's dogma unchanged. Untill he meets some form of organised clergy operating on a larger scale and gets taken into the fold of a more open but pragmaticly evil clergy he wont get any clues of him following team Bane.

Torm would be too oft be at odds with Hoar, especially Hoars bittersweet humour and temper will quickly make Torm be on edge. Torm already has enough responcability in leading from Mount Celestia. Hoar's cruder vision of justice would make Torm's decisionmaking during trials quite hard.

Bane underestimates Hoar. He has always given wide berth to his domain on the Barrens of Doom and Despair, but inviting Hoar to live in Banehold is a rather bold move. Hoar's love for Beshaba is clear to me, and now that Bane has taken her as consort Hoar must have felt slighted. And no slight goes unavenged...
#6
lord_karsus
Feb 15, 2009 10:14:15 -I'm of the opinion that, unless it's a huge shift in alignment, or something that happens suddenly, priests or priestess' wouldn't really be aware. For example, if Hoar began commanding his followers to do more and more violent things over the course of 100 years, by the time we get to year 100, his followers are going to be "desensitized". If they, slowly but surely, start doing more and more evil things, by the time 100 years pass, people are going to be fairly used to some evil things as the norm, and not really even realize that things have changed, unless they look back in reflection. On the other hand, if, within a span of two weeks, Hoar commands his followers to perform more deprived acts of violence more and more often, then I'd think that "something is up" would be readily apparent.
#7
belegan
Feb 15, 2009 10:57:29 Thanks for your input Suin Bahhar and Lord Karsus. I think you've answered my questions in regards to both my specific PC and my general question.
#8
drizztsmanchild
Feb 15, 2009 22:08:10
Thanks for your input Suin Bahhar and Lord Karsus. I think you've answered my questions in regards to both my specific PC and my general question.

These forums are a great source. Sorry I couldn't be mor of a help.
#9
lord_karsus
Feb 17, 2009 22:18:45 -No problem.
#10
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Feb 17, 2009 23:48:22
So i'm not quite sure how to handle this, normally I would say that the priests of any given deity would be able to sense any changes to their God, but since the priests of Hoar does not know, what about the non-priest worshippers of deities?

No, they wouldn't necessarily sense anything. As I've said before, people don't get "memos" regarding changes in the cosmos. If that was true, deities would never be able to masquerade as other deities, but we know for a fact that they do.
#11
blackmasque
Feb 18, 2009 22:45:36
No, they wouldn't necessarily sense anything. As I've said before, people don't get "memos" regarding changes in the cosmos. If that was true, deities would never be able to masquerade as other deities, but we know for a fact that they do.

I don't know if I am misremembering something but weren't there a type of Angel that were basically "messangers" for deities? Maybe it wasnt D&D but I remember something like that from something.
#12
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Feb 22, 2009 0:22:25
I don't know if I am misremembering something but weren't there a type of Angel that were basically "messangers" for deities? Maybe it wasnt D&D but I remember something like that from something.

Well, the word angel means "messenger." That said, I do have to stand by my previous point, based on all I've learned about how deities are supposed to work in the Realms.
#13
JudgeDookie
Feb 22, 2009 20:31:54
No, they wouldn't necessarily sense anything. As I've said before, people don't get "memos" regarding changes in the cosmos. If that was true, deities would never be able to masquerade as other deities, but we know for a fact that they do.

Oh, yeah?

Well, Bejebuz lets me know about everything. In fact, he contacted me just two minutes ago to let me know of the massive log he just sky bombed into the poop—

Sorry. Wasn't supposed to report that event.

So i'm not quite sure how to handle this, normally I would say that the priests of any given deity would be able to sense any changes to their God, but since the priests of Hoar does not know, what about the non-priest worshippers of deities?

As to Rino’s point, definitely not. Think of the gods slain by other gods, who then, in turn, absorbed their portfolio’s. Nobody even blinked.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 belegan Feb 15, 2009 2:14:08	Hi all, we recently fast-forwarded our campaign to 1485 DR (we're using a homebrewed 3.5 set of rules) and that includes the changes to the Pantheon. Now one of my players plays a fighter/rogue who worships Hoar, one of the deities who now serves Bane. And then he asks me "How does my character feel about this - can he sense any changes?" Now normally I would say yes, but I'm confused about this because of the small entry "Hidden Hand of Fate" on a group of Hoar worshippers in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide in the Dalelands chapter, where it says that the priests of Hoar are not aware that they indirectly serve Bane now, believing that they still serve Torm, something which ammuses Bane. So i'm not quite sure how to handle this, normally I would say that the priests of any given deity would be able to sense any changes to their God, but since the priests of Hoar does not know, what about the non-priest worshippers of deities?
#2 drizztsmanchild Feb 15, 2009 2:57:58	Well IMO no. Simply because the non-priest followers tend to get information from their priests as they are the "voice" of their god per se. Now granted there are some priest in every religion that are corrupt and care about lining their pockets more than spreading theii gods word. But if the "canon" source says that the majority of the priests don't know then I would go with that. Unless you're not a "canon" type of guy.
#3 belegan Feb 15, 2009 3:18:02	Well IMO no. Simply because the non-priest followers tend to get information from their priests as they are the "voice" of their god per se. Now granted there are some priest in every religion that are corrupt and care about lining their pockets more than spreading theii gods word. But if the "canon" source says that the majority of the priests don't know then I would go with that. Unless you're not a "canon" type of guy. I'm the canon type of guy, which is why I wanted to see what others have done. I still don't get why the priests shouldn't be aware of major changes in their deity.
#4 drizztsmanchild Feb 15, 2009 3:34:46	I'm the canon type of guy, which is why I wanted to see what others have done. I still don't get why the priests shouldn't be aware of major changes in their deity. Well one of the reasons could be that the deity himself hasn't changed(no matter who he serves now). Or he may have changed so slightly over these 100 yrs that it wouldn't be register among the priests. But this is my opinion and since I don't actually play that much I'll accede this question to more knowledgable posters on here.
#5 suin_bahhar_02 Feb 15, 2009 8:13:51	Hoar's priests, divine champions and paladins are loners most of the time. There is almost no formal structure in the priesthood, and information is scarse at best. Most of his followers are vigilantes for the common folk, and are adamant on achieving "true justice", i.e. a very personalised view of revenge through poetic justice. Eye for an eye. This view is kind of evil in it self, but its a neccesary evil that serves a purpose to retain order. The PC sounds like a lone vigilante type aswell so he will just go about his life following Hoar's dogma unchanged. Untill he meets some form of organised clergy operating on a larger scale and gets taken into the fold of a more open but pragmaticly evil clergy he wont get any clues of him following team Bane. Torm would be too oft be at odds with Hoar, especially Hoars bittersweet humour and temper will quickly make Torm be on edge. Torm already has enough responcability in leading from Mount Celestia. Hoar's cruder vision of justice would make Torm's decisionmaking during trials quite hard. Bane underestimates Hoar. He has always given wide berth to his domain on the Barrens of Doom and Despair, but inviting Hoar to live in Banehold is a rather bold move. Hoar's love for Beshaba is clear to me, and now that Bane has taken her as consort Hoar must have felt slighted. And no slight goes unavenged...
#6 lord_karsus Feb 15, 2009 10:14:15	-I'm of the opinion that, unless it's a huge shift in alignment, or something that happens suddenly, priests or priestess' wouldn't really be aware. For example, if Hoar began commanding his followers to do more and more violent things over the course of 100 years, by the time we get to year 100, his followers are going to be "desensitized". If they, slowly but surely, start doing more and more evil things, by the time 100 years pass, people are going to be fairly used to some evil things as the norm, and not really even realize that things have changed, unless they look back in reflection. On the other hand, if, within a span of two weeks, Hoar commands his followers to perform more deprived acts of violence more and more often, then I'd think that "something is up" would be readily apparent.
#7 belegan Feb 15, 2009 10:57:29	Thanks for your input Suin Bahhar and Lord Karsus. I think you've answered my questions in regards to both my specific PC and my general question.
#8 drizztsmanchild Feb 15, 2009 22:08:10	Thanks for your input Suin Bahhar and Lord Karsus. I think you've answered my questions in regards to both my specific PC and my general question. These forums are a great source. Sorry I couldn't be mor of a help.
#9 lord_karsus Feb 17, 2009 22:18:45	-No problem.
#10 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Feb 17, 2009 23:48:22	So i'm not quite sure how to handle this, normally I would say that the priests of any given deity would be able to sense any changes to their God, but since the priests of Hoar does not know, what about the non-priest worshippers of deities? No, they wouldn't necessarily sense anything. As I've said before, people don't get "memos" regarding changes in the cosmos. If that was true, deities would never be able to masquerade as other deities, but we know for a fact that they do.
#11 blackmasque Feb 18, 2009 22:45:36	No, they wouldn't necessarily sense anything. As I've said before, people don't get "memos" regarding changes in the cosmos. If that was true, deities would never be able to masquerade as other deities, but we know for a fact that they do. I don't know if I am misremembering something but weren't there a type of Angel that were basically "messangers" for deities? Maybe it wasnt D&D but I remember something like that from something.
#12 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Feb 22, 2009 0:22:25	I don't know if I am misremembering something but weren't there a type of Angel that were basically "messangers" for deities? Maybe it wasnt D&D but I remember something like that from something. Well, the word angel means "messenger." That said, I do have to stand by my previous point, based on all I've learned about how deities are supposed to work in the Realms.
#13 JudgeDookie Feb 22, 2009 20:31:54	No, they wouldn't necessarily sense anything. As I've said before, people don't get "memos" regarding changes in the cosmos. If that was true, deities would never be able to masquerade as other deities, but we know for a fact that they do. Oh, yeah? Well, Bejebuz lets me know about everything. In fact, he contacted me just two minutes ago to let me know of the massive log he just sky bombed into the poop— Sorry. Wasn't supposed to report that event. So i'm not quite sure how to handle this, normally I would say that the priests of any given deity would be able to sense any changes to their God, but since the priests of Hoar does not know, what about the non-priest worshippers of deities? As to Rino’s point, definitely not. Think of the gods slain by other gods, who then, in turn, absorbed their portfolio’s. Nobody even blinked.