Just wondering.
And yes I might be returning for a little bit...
I can understand they were frustrated at the fall out, but the battle of good and evil shouldn't be fought without punishment outside their portfolios, when the gods are in question. Their imprisonment was the worst thing they could do without greatly overstepping their bounds.
-RW
They acted outside of their portfolios imprisoning him. Cyric was the god of Murder, you should as soon imprison a construction worker for building a house, or a nurse for helping the sick. The fact they punished him for doing what he was supposed to do is the rediculous part.
I can understand they were frustrated at the fall out, but the battle of good and evil shouldn't be fought without punishment outside their portfolios, when the gods are in question. Their imprisonment was the worst thing they could do without greatly overstepping their bounds.
-RW
I would say the exception for him came with his insanity. If he was calculated, rather than manipulated, then things might have been different.
Then again, that's assuming WotC had that in mind....
You are assuming that they could have even killed Cyric if they wanted too. Keep in mind that he had just slain Mystra. There is no telling what type of power that granted him - even if temporary.
Then I would ask you to elaborate.
Have they yet answeared the question why that punk Cyric isn't dead yet? IO mean if Shar and Cyric got away because they were 'acting' in their portfolios(which incidently had to do with the mortal world...but we'll ignore that bit of logic for a second) wouldn't Tyr, Lathender, and who ever else it was that caged Cyric just have been right to act in their portfolios to waste the punk?
Just wondering.
And yes I might be returning for a little bit...
-Cyric is imprisoned for now. His church controls whats left of The Zhentarim, his religion is top dog in Amn. The Zhents are no longer in Zhentil Keep because the Shades destroyed the place. Tyr died fighting off a Demonic invasion of the Upper planes/Astral Sea. Lathander is Aumator(sp) now.
-Glad to see you around JK.
18DELTA ;)
I can, however, speculate upon the fact that normally when you kill a deity it's possible for you to receive their power. This can be evidenced by Eilistraee slaying Vhaeraun among many other instances. Now, while I don't think Cyric grabbed Mystra's portfolios, I think he likely gained something out of the deal (aside from the satisfaction of taking out his long time rival).
We really don't know the details of the events as they happened, we only know what the result of those events were - thus all we can do is speculate.
We really don't know the details of the events as they happened, we only know what the result of those events were - thus all we can do is speculate.
True enough, Meldread.
For myself, and entirely of my own volition and opinion... if he was going to kill Mystra in her home plane then I do wish the execrable little fool had the good grace to explode into a thousant slimy pieces afterwards.
Technically speaking, NOTHING happens unless Ao allows it.
So this means that Ao had to allow Cyric and Shar to take out Mystra. Plus, Ao being what he is he likely saw the coming of the Spellplague right from the beginning of time itself.
Hell, Ao himself could have stepped in and told them that they couldn't kill Cyric for acting on his portfolios. After all, it was Ao who punished the gods in the past for not upholding their portfolios, and Cyric being the god of murder, lies and intrigue certainly was doing his job. So it makes sense that Ao could have protected him against retribution.
But hey, I know people will not like that possibility. ;)
Alediran-
Technically speaking, NOTHING happens unless Ao allows it.
So this means that Ao had to allow Cyric and Shar to take out Mystra. Plus, Ao being what he is he likely saw the coming of the Spellplague right from the beginning of time itself.
Hell, Ao himself could have stepped in and told them that they couldn't kill Cyric for acting on his portfolios. After all, it was Ao who punished the gods in the past for not upholding their portfolios, and Cyric being the god of murder, lies and intrigue certainly was doing his job. So it makes sense that Ao could have protected him against retribution.
But hey, I know people will not like that possibility. ;)
-And, as I like to say, because nothing implicitly states it either, the lingering spirit of Karsus could have also taken over the divine spirits of Mystra, Shar, their followers, and then become Ao itself.
I can't elaborate because no one knows the details of what happened. :P
I can, however, speculate upon the fact that normally when you kill a deity it's possible for you to receive their power. This can be evidenced by Eilistraee slaying Vhaeraun among many other instances. Now, while I don't think Cyric grabbed Mystra's portfolios, I think he likely gained something out of the deal (aside from the satisfaction of taking out his long time rival).
We really don't know the details of the events as they happened, we only know what the result of those events were - thus all we can do is speculate.
Accept we know for a fact that Shar(who is definitly stepping on Ao's toes with this act) kept this from happening. She stopped any new god of magic from stepping up.
Yeah I know logic and reason has abandoned the designers at the WotC like my money going to their products...but lets look at this logicaly.
1) Three greater god should be able to take out one greater god( I don't care what his power souce he just ate...even ignoring the evidence that Shar actualy stopped him getting that power up) It is a lot easier to kill something then to wound it or imprison it I would imagine.
2) Fine he was upholding his portfolio( though killing the goddess of magic seems a little silly considering how effective magic is at murdering people)...and those gods would have done the same thing too. I mean portfolios that are opposite will come in conflict. Muder is ananthema to idea of Justice. Lathender could say it was time that the god of murder was renewed. And...I can't really remember the other goddess who was helped them. But I am sure I can up with a reason for how it would work in with her portfolio.
I mean I really never liked Ao much(I though he was pretty silly) but he is there can't they atleast be a little consistent?
-It's so scary, John, it's so scary...
What is scary?
The foums?
The New Realms?
My question?
What is scary?
The foums?
The New Realms?
My question?
-Two of the above.
I can't elaborate because no one knows the details of what happened. :P
Then you can't make your statement. All you can do is speculate, like I. ;)
And no, I don't see him grabbing her portfolio. Once she went belly up, no one was any longer in control of them--even the gods.
They acted outside of their portfolios imprisoning him.
No they didn't, because they like punishing evil.
1. Shar helps Cyrc get into Dweomerheart using her powers. Well within her portfolio of hidden things and secrets.
2. Cyric murders Mystra, well within his role of murder.
3. Tyr leads the others to find and punish Cyric, well within his portfolio.
4. They catch Cyric and punish him accordingly. Tyr is the god of Justice, maybe this was justice in his eyes. An eye for an eye isn't justice, its revenge, and revenge isn't justice, no matter how you phrase it.
These are gods, not mortals, so there is nothing saying that the punishment of deific murder is death, not when you can imprison a creature for 1000 years.
Besides, Cyric's death may cause his home realm to collapse and cause another Spellplague or worse. When the world is burning from the inside out killing millions of your faithful, would you risk an all out cosmic implosion just to wax a punk like Cyric? I wouldn't and I don't think Tyr or Lathander or Sune would either.
Thats the way I see it. Everyone acted within their alignment and portfolios and acted the way they did for a good reason.
Here is how it worked the way I see it, everyone was working in their portfolios and everyone did their job:
1. Shar helps Cyrc get into Dweomerheart using her powers. Well within her portfolio of hidden things and secrets.
2. Cyric murders Mystra, well within his role of murder.
3. Tyr leads the others to find and punish Cyric, well within his portfolio.
4. They catch Cyric and punish him accordingly. Tyr is the god of Justice, maybe this was justice in his eyes. An eye for an eye isn't justice, its revenge, and revenge isn't justice, no matter how you phrase it.
Depend on one veiws of the death penalty I would suppose...the thing is Cyric wasn't just responisable for the death Mystra but technicaly all the deaths(both god and mortal) that resulted in the spellplague.
Also he has killed before and will kill again...and now he has a 1000 years to plot his next move...fine maybe you are right Tyr wouldn't but Lathender? I think he would.
These are gods, not mortals, so there is nothing saying that the punishment of deific murder is death, not when you can imprison a creature for 1000 years.
A 1000 years to a immortal is what? a blink of the eye?
Also they only imprisoned him phyiscaly...his will is still free to visit the Realms. He can still answear prayers( sorry erdition mistake) He can still invest his priest with powers..so what did he really loose?
Also remember the gods are responsable for their mortal charges that is what the Times of Trouble was all about after all.
Besides, Cyric's death may cause his home realm to collapse and cause another Spellplague or worse. When the world is burning from the inside out killing millions of your faithful, would you risk an all out cosmic implosion just to wax a punk like Cyric? I wouldn't and I don't think Tyr or Lathander or Sune would either.
This is very unlikely as the only reason why Mystra's death caused the Spellplague was because it also took out the Weave. Lots of gods have been killed and not a single one caused anything like the Spellplague.
Thats the way I see it. Everyone acted within their alignment and portfolios and acted the way they did for a good reason.
I still don't see it. I respect your opinions but I think I have brought important points to yours.
...so what did he really loose?
-In reality, nothing. If anything, he and his followers have gained since 1385 DR.
If they dealt Cyric the death penalty, it would just create a void where he used to be, waiting for something else to come and fill it. Better to have the mad god of lies, murder, and chaos you know than something you know nothing about.
Mystra was not doing her job when she was banning mages left and right, using her control of the Weave like a nightstick to whoever she thought deserved it.
-Of course, that never happened. Mystra never banned magi left and right, nor did she use her control of the Weave, and the ability to block others from it to threaten others like a nightstick.
IMHO, I think it all comes down to balance. Good, evil, and neutrality. If one side of the eternal conflict gets too powerful, the balance is upset and all heck breaks loose. But in this one case, a force of what was supposed to be strict neutrality was murderered. Mystra was not doing her job when she was banning mages left and right, using her control of the Weave like a nightstick to whoever she thought deserved it.
If they dealt Cyric the death penalty, it would just create a void where he used to be, waiting for something else to come and fill it. Better to have the mad god of lies, murder, and chaos you know than something you know nothing about.
Again this is not true according to F&A...which clearly states Mystra was doing her job and becoming more neutral(forget the lousy novels for a second that completely ignored cannon).
Also i see people bring this up all the time...can you name a ten wizard she banned and the souce? Besides what now looks like a move for Self-defense in which she tried to cut Cyric from using magic....
Also if they replace mystra with a neutral deity then I could see your arguement...but they didn't(or Ao didn't) so what kinda of void did that leave? Also I think the world can survive without a god of lies(which ?Mask or Shar can handle), muder(I just don't why there is a god for murder in the 1st place) and chaos(there are alot of gods that serve the cause of Chaos better than Cyric). So what void in leaving him did the fill?
-Of course, that never happened. Mystra never banned magi left and right, nor did she use her control of the Weave, and the ability to block others from it to threaten others like a nightstick.
It happened, but she smartened up after she went on Trial along with Cyric.
-RW
-In reality, nothing. If anything, he and his followers have gained since 1385 DR.
No, his church is significantly weakened with his inprisonment. He just happened to have come out on top in Zhentil Keep, and be the primary faith in Amn. Elsewhere he is for the most part absent.
-RW
Portfolios whatsoever, it wouldn't have been possible for Cyric to simply kill Mystra on her own plane, to beginn with. Even if he got help from Shar, lanky Cyric killed the by far most powerful deity on her home plane, while Azuth and Savras where on vacation, apparently. This isn't very plausible. So logic isn't their strong point, I assume.
This will have to be an agree to disagree point here. Not everyone thinks it's impossible, including the designers. Until we know more about how it happened, no one can claim fairly EITHER way. We can speculate all we want, and speculation can show it would be possible.
Just don't close the doors on this yet.
-RW
(portfolio responsiblilities aside)
This will have to be an agree to disagree point here. Not everyone thinks it's impossible, including the designers. Until we know more about how it happened, no one can claim fairly EITHER way. We can speculate all we want, and speculation can show it would be possible.
Just don't close the doors on this yet.
-RW
I can live with it, if the official explanation makes sense. But I fear the worst.
It happened, but she smartened up after she went on Trial along with Cyric.
-RW
Can you poiont to the souce that said so? I mean in the book before trial or some such she did it once when she cut Cyric off. But that is the only one.
Besides the point it was really a stupid death to being with and Mystra by far a more interesting character...(ok that last bit is my opinion but right now I wouldn't advise any anybody to read these novels especialy a woman, especialy a woman who has had been stalked)
Have they yet answered the question why that punk Cyric isn't dead yet?
For my answer to this question, see this thread.
Besides the point it was really a stupid death to being with and Mystra by far a more interesting character...
Opinion or not, I agree. I think Mystra's a great character, and it kills me that Cyric of all people killed her. I really, really wish Mystra (Midnight) would come back. It'd definitely be fun. Picture the scene. You've got Cyric, who's ecstatic that he finally killed Mystra. He gets locked up, sure, but what's 1,000 years to an immortal? He can do that standing on his head. And through that whole time, he'll be comforted by the thought that he "finally got her". He finally killed Mystra.
Now let's say Mystra came back to life. Can you imagine the utter depths of rage that would consume Cyric if that were the case? One can picture him wanting to get out of his prison, but not really being in a huge rush, as he's still busy basking in the glow of having killed Mystra. But with Mystra back? He'd want to break out yesterday! He'd be throwing himself against the barriers of his prison constantly, trying to get out. He'd be consumed by a murderous rage that can't possibly be satiated, due to his imprisonment. As insane as he is, her returning would drive him even further over the brink. That light sentence which Cyric received would suddenly become nothing short of Hell.
Now, how sweet would that be?
Opinion or not, I agree. I think Mystra's a great character, and it kills me that Cyric of all people killed her. I really, really wish Mystra (Midnight) would come back. It'd definitely be fun. Picture the scene. You've got Cyric, who's ecstatic that he finally killed Mystra. He gets locked up, sure, but what's 1,000 years to an immortal? He can do that standing on his head. And through that whole time, he'll be comforted by the thought that he "finally got her". He finally killed Mystra.
Now let's say Mystra came back to life. Can you imagine the utter depths of rage that would consume Cyric if that were the case? One can picture him wanting to get out of his prison, but not really being in a huge rush, as he's still busy basking in the glow of having killed Mystra. But with Mystra back? He'd want to break out yesterday! He'd be throwing himself against the barriers of his prison constantly, trying to get out. He'd be consumed by a murderous rage that can't possibly be satiated, due to his imprisonment. As insane as he is, her returning would drive him even further over the brink. That light sentence which Cyric received would suddenly become nothing short of Hell.
Now, how sweet would that be?
If WotC actualky does that I would buy their products again...(well that and bring back Eilistraee).
Opinion or not, I agree. I think Mystra's a great character, and it kills me that Cyric of all people killed her. I really, really wish Mystra (Midnight) would come back. It'd definitely be fun. Picture the scene. You've got Cyric, who's ecstatic that he finally killed Mystra. He gets locked up, sure, but what's 1,000 years to an immortal? He can do that standing on his head. And through that whole time, he'll be comforted by the thought that he "finally got her". He finally killed Mystra.
Now let's say Mystra came back to life. Can you imagine the utter depths of rage that would consume Cyric if that were the case? One can picture him wanting to get out of his prison, but not really being in a huge rush, as he's still busy basking in the glow of having killed Mystra. But with Mystra back? He'd want to break out yesterday! He'd be throwing himself against the barriers of his prison constantly, trying to get out. He'd be consumed by a murderous rage that can't possibly be satiated, due to his imprisonment. As insane as he is, her returning would drive him even further over the brink. That light sentence which Cyric received would suddenly become nothing short of Hell.
Now, how sweet would that be?
If she was around Torm would have to let him out of the prison since it is obvious that he did not kill her. ;)
It happened, but she smartened up after she went on Trial along with Cyric.
-RW
-Incorrect. Mystra never banned magi from accessing magic left or right. There is a single instance of her engaging in this sort of behavior. The phrase 'left and right' entailed repeated behavior, which is not the case.
No, his church is significantly weakened with his inprisonment. He just happened to have come out on top in Zhentil Keep, and be the primary faith in Amn. Elsewhere he is for the most part absent.
-With the Cyricists in control of the Zhentarim, and strong in Amn, it seems to me that they are in a better position than they were previously. Thus, they have received a net gain.
If she was around Torm would have to let him out of the prison since it is obvious that he did not kill her. ;)
999 years for attempted murder. ;)
Someone called Mystra the most powerful go by far and I humbly disagree with that. Her divine rank was good but Cyric's was higher (as I recall off the top of my head) which means he had more power and I believe Shar's was at least equal. The combined magical might of Shar and Cyric easily could have snook in nad taken her out without any secret techniques. Heck, just using Shar's total control of the Shadow Weave could have likely smuggled them in aganst an unaware Mystra.
And people have asked what 1000 years is to an immortal, but remember while Cyric will never die, he's not as old as time itself either. He was born a mortal in what, about 1320's? (the accurate year escapes me) So when he was imprisoned he was only about 60-70. So by this point hes been around 150 years with 2/3 of it chained to a chair. By the time he gets out he'll be 1070 with a little less than 95% of his immortal life imprisoned. I don't know, sounds pretty crappy to me.
While Cyric can still grant powers to followers, I don't think he can take physical form and start galavanting around Waterdeep. This is an assumption but I think he's bound to his throne, no avatars for him.
And I don't think this is a net gain for Cyric's following at all. Before now he was one of the prominent gods of evil, now hes a footnote in history with some influence in Amn. He got Bane's leftovers of the Zhentarim, whoopty do. Even evil doers are thinking "Man... that punk is crazy, I ain't followin' him!".
As for why Lathander went along to capture Cyric.... uhhh... you got me. I don't get it, I would have thought he would have waxed him too. Maybe that was Tyr's call and Lathander grudgingly accepted it. There is also the point that Lathander is Lawful Good, so he could have been following divine law which gave Tyr authority to pick the punishment. Those are my best guesses, the last one sounds most credible.
Also, while I HIGHLY doubt Cyric's domain collapse would have caused another Spellplague, the planes were standing on shaky ground, like a game of Jenga at an all night frat party gone horribly awry. Probably best to leave that hanging piece be or else the rest may come tumbling down.
And finally, lets not kid ourselves and think that AO gives a half darn about peace, hes about balance. If he really cared about good vs. evil, he'd wipe evil off the map. Its also clear that he wants (ad has always wanted) as few gods to die as possible without his direct interference, so Cyric's demise would have only compounded AO's dilemma, not solved it.
Just because the victim is resurrected doesn't mean a murder wasn't still committed, and that one doesn't have to pay for that crime. :P
-That's how we did it back in Netheril...
Everyone has brought up good points, a few additions to my previous post.
Thank you and your own points are just as good. Though I still disagree with them
Someone called Mystra the most powerful go by far and I humbly disagree with that. Her divine rank was good but Cyric's was higher (as I recall off the top of my head) which means he had more power and I believe Shar's was at least equal. The combined magical might of Shar and Cyric easily could have snook in nad taken her out without any secret techniques. Heck, just using Shar's total control of the Shadow Weave could have likely smuggled them in aganst an unaware Mystra.
Technicaly she is but she has less power because of all of her choosen. Though her divine rank is higher then Cyrics and either is higher than Shars or equal to it. Though you seem to forget she had Azuth with her, and two other gods(It is late and I'll probably misspell their names). So she had power in her cornor.
Also the Shadow Weave and the Weave has been redefined sooo many times it use in it is soo contrived it is incredible.
And people have asked what 1000 years is to an immortal, but remember while Cyric will never die, he's not as old as time itself either. He was born a mortal in what, about 1320's? (the accurate year escapes me) So when he was imprisoned he was only about 60-70. So by this point hes been around 150 years with 2/3 of it chained to a chair. By the time he gets out he'll be 1070 with a little less than 95% of his immortal life imprisoned. I don't know, sounds pretty crappy to me.
Except that his immortal life doesn't end upon his release so in the end it could equal out be 0.00000000001 % of his immortal life.
While Cyric can still grant powers to followers, I don't think he can take physical form and start galavanting around Waterdeep. This is an assumption but I think he's bound to his throne, no avatars for him.
Yes you are right...that is why I said his will is free.
And I don't think this is a net gain for Cyric's following at all. Before now he was one of the prominent gods of evil, now hes a footnote in history with some influence in Amn. He got Bane's leftovers of the Zhentarim, whoopty do. Even evil doers are thinking "Man... that punk is crazy, I ain't followin' him!".
I disagree it seems his faith is widespread...maybe hiddened in most place but still there. 1) He is still a greater god and 2) It pretty much says so in his description. Atleast as far as I remember reading it.
As for why Lathander went along to capture Cyric.... uhhh... you got me. I don't get it, I would have thought he would have waxed him too. Maybe that was Tyr's call and Lathander grudgingly accepted it. There is also the point that Lathander is Lawful Good, so he could have been following divine law which gave Tyr authority to pick the punishment. Those are my best guesses, the last one sounds most credible.
1) Remember Lathender believes he should be the leader of all gods(remember the Dawn Cat.?) So I doubt he would let Tyr decide...I mean he is that full of himself after all.
2) People keep mentioning divine law? Has this ever been described in any souce?
Also, while I HIGHLY doubt Cyric's domain collapse would have caused another Spellplague, the planes were standing on shaky ground, like a game of Jenga at an all night frat party gone horribly awry. Probably best to leave that hanging piece be or else the rest may come tumbling down.
Actualy with the new way the plains set up I doubt any gods domains collaspe would cause any devastion(well to out side the domain...being in the domain probably would be...interesting)
And finally, lets not kid ourselves and think that AO gives a half darn about peace, hes about balance. If he really cared about good vs. evil, he'd wipe evil off the map. Its also clear that he wants (ad has always wanted) as few gods to die as possible without his direct interference, so Cyric's demise would have only compounded AO's dilemma, not solved it.
Peace is balance. Balance is Peace.
Also can you think of anything that disrupted the balance of the Realms more than the Spellplague? I mean you had alot of powerful good beings slaughtered but not alot of evil people killed...the balance seemed to be tipped towards evil(I am sure this was the designer intent but as a arguement it doesn't work)
Anyway I enjoy the discussion and look forward to your counter points.
Someone called Mystra the most powerful go by far and I humbly disagree with that.
Within Realmspace, Mystra is the most powerful deity of all (excepting Ao), or would be if Ao hadn't limited her power by vesting some of it in her Chosen (to prevent utter chaos ensuing if Mystra went mad, or just on a whim decided to trash things, drifted into tyranny [absolute power corrupts absolutely], or somehow [as happened in the Avatar trilogy] became the captive of another entity). On Toril, Mystra and Chauntea are the most powerful deities: Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet), and Mystra embodies the Weave, which can (roughly) be defined as the natural forces, and energy flows and cycles, of planetary life (the Shadow Weave being the 'dark' or return flows of the cycle). To use a slightly clumsy real-world analogy, Mystra is the brain observing and in small ways controlling the heart, the Weave is the heart and the arteries, and the Shadow Weave is the veins.
And there you have it, from the Master himself.
Alright then
Her divine rank was good but Cyric's was higher (as I recall off the top of my head) which means he had more power and I believe Shar's was at least equal.
No, Cyric did not have a higher divine rank than Mystra, and neither did Shar.
DIVINE RANK 19
Chauntea
DIVINE RANK 18
Mystra
Shar
Silvanus
Tyr
DIVINE RANK 17
Bane
Cyric
Kossuth
Lathander
Tempus
DIVINE RANK 16
Kelemvor
Oghma
Sune
Talos
Incidentally, has anyone ever attempted finding out how a fight between Cyric and Mystra would go? Just curious.
Can you poiont to the souce that said so? I mean in the book before trial or some such she did it once when she cut Cyric off. But that is the only one.
Besides the point it was really a stupid death to being with and Mystra by far a more interesting character...(ok that last bit is my opinion but right now I wouldn't advise any anybody to read these novels especialy a woman, especialy a woman who has had been stalked)
I can point to the novel (Trial of Cyric the Mad IIRC), where she cut off all battle magic from all wizards, as it caused death, destruction and sufferring. Tempus was wading through the battles, raising and healing those he could to keep the balance of the fight. He told Mystra it was her restriction on magic that was causing uneeded deaths. Her restriction is what lead to her being held on trial as well.
-RW
Just by way of comparison, Divine Ranks, again (As things stood at the time of Faiths & Pantheons, anyway).
DIVINE RANK 19
Chauntea
DIVINE RANK 18
Mystra
Shar
Silvanus
Tyr
DIVINE RANK 17
Bane
Cyric
Kossuth
Lathander
Tempus
DIVINE RANK 16
Kelemvor
Oghma
Sune
Talos
Incidentally, has anyone ever attempted finding out how a fight between Cyric and Mystra would go? Just curious.
I will point out again too that DvR doesn't mean a heck of a lot, when power and ability are on the side of another.
By the Rules, I can make builds of pre epic levels, that can destroy most epic characters with hardly a thought. DvR is in many ways a level equivalent for the gods (Given they have levels all comparitively equal), so one must turn to the power they can muster to compare, and there you'll see that beings like Cyric and Shar, by their very nature, are more equipped to destroy their opponents. Bane sneaks in on this too.
-RW
I can point to the novel (Trial of Cyric the Mad IIRC), where she cut off all battle magic from all wizards, as it caused death, destruction and sufferring. Tempus was wading through the battles, raising and healing those he could to keep the balance of the fight. He told Mystra it was her restriction on magic that was causing uneeded deaths. Her restriction is what lead to her being held on trial as well.
-RW
mmm...that goes against the lore as written about her in F&P...
Here is how it worked the way I see it, everyone was working in their portfolios and everyone did their job:
1. Shar helps Cyrc get into Dweomerheart using her powers. Well within her portfolio of hidden things and secrets.
2. Cyric murders Mystra, well within his role of murder.
3. Tyr leads the others to find and punish Cyric, well within his portfolio.
4. They catch Cyric and punish him accordingly. Tyr is the god of Justice, maybe this was justice in his eyes. An eye for an eye isn't justice, its revenge, and revenge isn't justice, no matter how you phrase it.
Hm...if it all comes down to portfolios, then we will have to hope for this guy:
Within the domain of the 'Supreme Throne' the god Cyric the Black Sun is laughing and shriking maniacally at the shadows his insane mind creates. Suddenly one of these shadowy spectres does step closer and Cyric does stop his ranting unsure if this is just imagined as he realizes who is standing before him.
"Have you come to free me?"
"Yes Lord Cyric I've come to release you from your prison."
Cyric laughs manically: "Then the hour of revenge has come at last! Now those pathetic fools will pay for letting me rot here for doing what is my nature...my divine right!"
"I'm glad you understand Lord Cyric. That our kind must act according to our divine missions given to us by Lord Ao."
The stranger steps closer,beginning to speak with a growl that builds into shouting: "Transgressor...Betrayer...Defiler... I'm Assuran the God of Revenge and I shall punish you!!!"
Cyric's eyes widen in horror, as sudden clarity washes over him.
The God of Revenge, known today as Hoar to his followers, plundges his blade into the mad god's heart: "This is for Mystra!" -stabs him again- "This is for Unther!" - and again...and again...and again...
As Assuran is leaving the Supreme Throne, the domain begins to crumbel to dust and Cyric, true to his portfolio, in death commits one last murder, as all his clerics, chosen and exarchs die, their skulls burning with black flames.
Assuran/Hoar, coated with blood and burning with the divine energy of a greater god, turns one last time seeing the Supreme Throne dissolve into the Astral Sea.
"And now for Shar..."
Best wishes
Lirdolin
Hm...if it all comes down to portfolios, then we will have to hope for this guy:
Within the domain of the 'Supreme Throne' the god Cyric the Black Sun is laughing and shriking maniacally at the shadows his insane mind creates. Suddenly one of these shadowy spectres does step closer and Cyric does stop his ranting unsure if this is just imagined as he realizes who is standing before him.
"Have you come to free me?"
"Yes Lord Cyric I've come to release you from your prison."
Cyric laughs manically: "Then the hour of revenge has come at last! Now those pathetic fools will pay for letting me rot here for doing what is my nature...my divine right!"
"I'm glad you understand Lord Cyric. That our kind must act according to our divine missions given to us by Lord Ao."
The stranger steps closer,beginning to speak with a growl that builds into shouting: "Transgressor...Betrayer...Defiler... I'm Assuran the God of Revenge and I shall punish you!!!"
Cyric's eyes widen in horror, as sudden clarity washes over him.
The God of Revenge, known today as Hoar to his followers, plundges his blade into the mad god's heart: "This is for Mystra!" -stabs him again- "This is for Unther!" - and again...and again...and again...
As Assuran is leaving the Supreme Throne, the domain begins to crumbel to dust and Cyric, true to his portfolio, in death commits one last murder, as all his clerics, chosen and exarchs die, their skulls burning with black flames.
Assuran/Hoar turns one last time seeing the Supreme Throne dissolve into the Astral Sea.
"And now for Shar..."
Best wishes
Lirdolin
Yeah but the authors have plans for Cyric he can't die because of actual in lore reasons....
In fact, the rules and lore based circumstances now enable it, since he is effectively unable to escape his divine realm and deities are now level 30++ unique monsters that can actually be defeated by level 30 heroes.
Besides, if greater deities can behave and die in such absurd circumstances as they do in the timeline prior to 4E, there is no reason why the trend cannot continue with the PCs as the ones doing the slaying.
I think the reason that Cyric is not dead yet is to give the Player Characters the opportunity to kill him...now that we have enough in-game justification to wish to do so.
In fact, the rules and lore based circumstances essentially enable it, since now he is effectively cornered in his divine realm and deities are now level 30++ unique monsters that can actually be defeated by level 30 heroes.
Besides, if greater deities can behave and die in such absurd circumstances as they do in the timeline prior to 4E, there is no reason why the trend cannot continue with the PCs now doing the slaying.
You are full of win today. I like this idea too... and I think I just might have a capstone to my future FR game... Thank you Simbul, you rock!
Hm...if it all comes down to portfolios, then we will have to hope for this guy:
Within the domain of the 'Supreme Throne' the god Cyric the Black Sun is laughing and shriking maniacally at the shadows his insane mind creates. Suddenly one of these shadowy spectres does step closer and Cyric does stop his ranting unsure if this is just imagined as he realizes who is standing before him.
"Have you come to free me?"
"Yes Lord Cyric I've come to release you from your prison."
Cyric laughs manically: "Then the hour of revenge has come at last! Now those pathetic fools will pay for letting me rot here for doing what is my nature...my divine right!"
"I'm glad you understand Lord Cyric. That our kind must act according to our divine missions given to us by Lord Ao."
The stranger steps closer,beginning to speak with a growl that builds into shouting: "Transgressor...Betrayer...Defiler... I'm Assuran the God of Revenge and I shall punish you!!!"
Cyric's eyes widen in horror, as sudden clarity washes over him.
The God of Revenge, known today as Hoar to his followers, plundges his blade into the mad god's heart: "This is for Mystra!" -stabs him again- "This is for Unther!" - and again...and again...and again...
As Assuran is leaving the Supreme Throne, the domain begins to crumbel to dust and Cyric, true to his portfolio, in death commits one last murder, as all his clerics, chosen and exarchs die, their skulls burning with black flames.
Assuran/Hoar, coated with blood and burning with the divine energy of a greater god, turns one last time seeing the Supreme Throne dissolve into the Astral Sea.
"And now for Shar..."
Best wishes
Lirdolin
Muhahahahahaha!
I mean even as incompetent as he is portrayed, the other gods did take him seriously, because he still could do damage. It's not like they were falling asleep letting him knife them in their deep comfortable slumbers.
Are there actually hints of this in the books?
I mean even as incompetent as he is portrayed, the other gods did take him seriously, because he still could do damage. It's not like they were falling asleep letting him knife them in their deep comfortable slumbers.
The biggest hint, besides his having killed at least a few lesser deities, was the end of the trial when he drinks the tears of Mystra and Kelemvor, it feels like his plan was bigger than getting his own ass out of a sling, and driving a wedge between the two other gods could have been his true goal.
-When was he ever portrayed as incompetent? A little crazy, sure, but incompetent?
Mostly an issue with some posters on the boards, that view him as a buffoon, incapable of tying his own shoes.
Mostly an issue with some posters on the boards, that view him as a buffoon, incapable of tying his own shoes.
Personally, I don't see him as a buffoon (baboon, balloon, poltroon, sand dune)... totally reprehensible? utterly contemptible? disagreeably cowardly? Certainly. But those fit quite well with his broader character ;) .
Mostly an issue with some posters on the boards, that view him as a buffoon, incapable of tying his own shoes.
-So...That, then, makes him an incompetent idiot?
-Well, using the the whole "perception is reality" tripe...
-So...That, then, makes him an incompetent idiot?
-Well, using the the whole "perception is reality" tripe...
Again, my perception of a perceived issue on the boards, not the view of all or many, just a few who make comments of wonderment that Cyric was able to kill Mystra, even if he is a greater god. I like and respect Cyric as a god, not as an individual or his human pre-god life. I think that he is underestimated by a few people and that has made him something of a joke.
minimum cutthroat ambition
Very understated.
Very understated.
Perhaps. Possibly too weak wording on my part.
Perhaps. Possibly too weak wording on my part.
Forgiven.
He was born in Zhentil keep, his mother was a prostitute and his father a Zhent officer (who Cyric killed). So that is why he fixates on Zhentil keep.
So why the bad rap? Why aren't more people behind him as a legitimate and truly menacing threat? I know some are, he does have some diehard fans even here. Why aren't the rest of us getting on board the Cyric train.
Because Bane is back and he's a nutball.
Besides, there is Mask to consider.
So why the bad rap? Why aren't more people behind him as a legitimate and truly menacing threat? I know some are, he does have some diehard fans even here. Why aren't the rest of us getting on board the Cyric train.
Like I said several posts ago...
"The greatest lie the devil ever told was convincing the world he doesn't exist" Most view Cyric just as he wants them to, as non-effectual, so that when he does do something big everyone is left scratching their heads, and he walks away with at worst a slap on the wrist. (After all what is a 1000 years to a god, especially since it means he is largely protected from retaliation by Mystra's allies and friends, such as Kelemvor). He still has followers and his angels and exarchs (if he has any yet) are still free to enact his will on the masses.
Note - I am not a follower of his, just trying to point out a real danger to those who wander the realms.
He is also the deity of madness/insanity. It seems to be the part of him played up the most.
Always that fine line between genius and insanity.
Where's the disconnect, or more importantly, why the disconnect.
-That's what I wonder. He was depicted as..."weaselly", and crazy, but not a bumbling doofus.
Right, I understand your point. It just got me thinking about where in the last two decades Cyric went wrong in the eyes of some fans when others and even the designers see him as a potent and present threat. Where's the disconnect, or more importantly, why the disconnect.
There are two thing about Cyric that has nothing to do with him as a character in a novel....one has to do with the game and the other I'll admitt is based on a personal reason.
1) I and just about everybody in my gaming group just hate based on the fact that he reminds us of a player in our group who just played the game to make sure everyone else didn't have any fun. I really don't think my group is the only one to deal with this problem. He is just a bad character to have in the game world.
2) On a personal note my younger sister was stalked by a creep she dated...it is just a very bad association when I read Cyric killing Mystra. I think that was a very bad move on the authors part and not to have a meaningful end to Cyric, because I know I am not the only one with this experience and proibably people has alot worse( my sister is ok he finally moved on though he still makes her life hell at times).
That is why I think people just don't like Cyric...even as a villian you love to hate...he is just a villian you hate.