How, in the name of Lady of Pain, you can push a plane? Especially one like the Abyss
Was not the Abyss, according to the new cosmology, always at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos?
And why this ended the Blood War?
The 4th edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide say that after kill and consume Azuth, Asmodeus ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos.
How, in the name of Lady of Pain, you can push a plane? Especially one like the Abyss
Was not the Abyss, according to the new cosmology, always at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos?
And why this ended the Blood War?
I don't know how he did considering the sheer number of gods and demon lords living there in the Abyss who probably wouldn't want it to get 'pushed'. I think it is funny though people complained about Mystra being too powerful...you don't see her ever bdo anything like this though.
Anyway to answear your question is simple.
How did he do it...because the designers thought it would be 'cool'
They had to do it to change the FR cosomolgy into the core cosomolgy. Don't worry too much about consistency...they(the designer) aren't.
It shouldbn't but the designers thought the Blood War was uncool. So it went away.
Atlthough I am guessing Azuthsnacks will become the new power souce of the gods...
-You accomplish it when the designers want you to. ;)
The character is powerful. Really powerful. Like, destroying-galaxies powerful. In fact, they could probably win the entire game by flexing their muscles...
...y'know, if they actually had these powers available in the gameplay. Outside cutscenes, they have the usual semi-goofy standard video game character abilities. How powerful the character is in battle seems inversely proportional to how strong they are outside it. In negative situations, this character is Overrated And Underleveled.
If you read the background lore you will have them move entire planes and hurl moons. If you actually look at their stats you will have them hitting for 4d6+17
Really the only edition that had the D&D deities live up to their supposed power was during 2e's "powerfull beyond statitics" period. All other rule incarnations have been mere shadows of what they were said to be able to do in their lore section.
That's how.
The designers have changed the Realms so much I'm almost ready to call it the Lost Realms, even though at its current rate "Forgotten" is what it soon will be.
The 4th edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide say that after kill and consume Azuth, Asmodeus ended the Blood War by pushing the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos.
How, in the name of Lady of Pain, you can push a plane? Especially one like the Abyss
Was not the Abyss, according to the new cosmology, always at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos?
And why this ended the Blood War?
-Isn't that totally bad ass! I mean somebody had to do it! ;)
18DELTA
Though sometimes you can't tell.
Azuthsnacks? Is that like Poppeye Spinach? Would that mean the Abyss is Bluto?
Wait, Asmodeus assumed godhood by absorbing the essence of Azuth, but doesn't Ao have to approve godhood?
Shhh stop poking holes in the logic of the designers you'll hurt their feelings.
And if you do that they will probably do something worse to the Realms in 5th.
Sorry couldn't resist. :D
I would at least expect it to push back.
The Nine Hells owns The Abyss
I never cared for it that much to be honest.
The Nine Hells owns The Abyss
No way, the nine have nothing on the infinte Abyss. In the nine hells all you have are the nine lords. In the Abyss you have Lloth, demagorgan, Grazz't, jubilex, etc. The list goes on and on with powerful deities and demons. The only reason the Abyss has not devistated the hells is because the whole idea of the abyss makes it vertually impossible for the demons to form any kind of organized battle plans.
and I confess, Orcus and Jubilex are awesome.
I never did like Gra'azt as a Demon Prince though.
Yeah, I still prefer the 666 Layers of the Abyss to the Infinite Abyss.
and I confess, Orcus and Jubilex are awesome.
I never did like Gra'azt as a Demon Prince though.
Yeah, I enjoyed the 666 as well. And I'm biting my own tounge on the Lloth comment I forgot the Demon Web Pits is its own plane now.
Yeah, I still prefer the 666 Layers of the Abyss to the Infinite Abyss.
and I confess, Orcus and Jubilex are awesome.
I never did like Gra'azt as a Demon Prince though.
um...it has always been infinite...though some who think that woulds be immpossible say it is 666 layers(talking about in game lore). So it was always left open for DMs to decide if their Abyss is infinite or it is olny 666 layers.
As for the Hells beat out the Abyss debate...I am guess those who fall on the side of the Hells have never seen a Marlalith Dervish dance before....(I am such a evil DM :evillaugh
)No way, the nine have nothing on the infinte Abyss. In the nine hells all you have are the nine lords.
Well, that's not really true either. At least not throughout all of D&D lore.
Indeed, one of the best articles Ed Greenwood ever wrote, IMO, was a two-part TD Article detailing the Hells, and though there are 9 rulers, there were lots of unique, powerful Devils (some statted, some not).
Once one goes with that, and all planes being infinite (yes, sometimes the designers have changed that, but IMO they've always run off the rails when they've tried to change things to "Plane X is 600 miles by 1000 miles" or whatnot), it really doesn't matter if the Abyss is infinite planes or 666 planes. Any one infinite plane is as big.
The thing about the Abyss is there's more jumbled variety. But they're not really "bigger" than the Hells. (design assertions to the contrary notwithstanding: That's just people being bad at math. Dittoes there being "more" demons than devils, if any plane is taken as infinite, and has a population density, then the populations of both the Hells and the Abyss are infinite. Likewise any other plane that is populated).
Anyhow, if you get a chance to check 'em out, I highly recommend Greenwood's articles on the Hells.
Azuth crash-lands in Nessus. Asmodeus murders the crap out of him. He then goes on a Deific 'roid-rage and drop-kicks the entire Abyss into the middle of the Inner Planes, creating a gargantuan planar distortion and breaking all of them into a massive Elemental Chaos at the bottom of which now seethes Evil Plus One.
I don't care how you spin that.
That's freaking awesome.
Wait, Asmodeus assumed godhood by absorbing the essence of Azuth, but doesn't Ao have to approve godhood?
Shhh stop poking holes in the logic of the designers you'll hurt their feelings.
Here the Devs have precident on their side, actually: Remember that Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal were all humans who challenged Jergal (was it just him? I forget) and became Gawds, transferring his portfolios to themselves.
Presumably Ao approved of the change by not disapproving/preventing it. Which no doubt he could have.
Dittoes here: Ao must have gave this the nod, too. Indeed, Asmodeus could have simply been one of his instruments (unknown to As) in reordering the Omniverse.
He (Ao) wanted the change, therefore Azuth lands in Asmodeus' lap in Nessus, Asmodeus seizes the opportunity, and simply because Ao wants to let it happen, As is able to end the Blood War and move the Abyss.
Anyhow, just one possible explanation. Ao essentially being the Devs deus ex machina anyhow for changes beyond what any "mere" Greater Gawd or team of Gawds can manage.
And if you do that they will probably do something worse to the Realms in 5th.
I'm already braced for it...
Dweomerhome exploded with her death, sending Azuth flying and 'in a coma' essentially leaving him vulnerable to Asmodeus. The energies sprayed out by Dweomerhome could have easily weakened the bonds that held the planes together in the Great Wheel/3e Realms cosmology.
Asmodeus' ascension would have given him at least a temporary power boost so combined with the weakening from Dweomerhome's destruction he could have 'uprooted' the Abyss setting it afloat at least and it got drawn towards the Prime but impacted with the Elemental Planes along the way, dragging all of them past the Prime and transforming them into the Elemental Chaos and rooting the Abyss where it is now.
This effectively ends the Blood War since there's no longer any direct planar ties between the Abyss and the Nine Hells. The War may still be going on but it's more akin to a cold war than a brutal neverending conflict like it was before.
As for Ao, he's not stopped the death of a god before and for the most part stays out of things unless he feels the gods have overstepped their station (hence the 'Time of Troubles' when he felt they'd gotten too arrogant). He may have even helped along Mystra's death to further weaken the gods and deal with Mystra who messed in mortal affairs all too often.
Nevermind that the Abyss is a living entity with a will of its own.
I would at least expect it to push back.
Well, there's the explination...he didn't "push" it anywhere...he conned it into moving like you would a bad neighbor
-How do you "push" a plane? Especially one that you have no power over, being as that Asmodeus was the Lord of the Nine Hells? Especially one that, technically, is infinite in size?
-You accomplish it when the designers want you to. ;)
See, that is a retcon you just can't justify through anything.
Simple.
-Demons the Blood War as end.
-That the Blood War as end? – Reply the Abyss – This is blasphemy! This is madness!
And Asmodeus answers:
-This is BAATOR – and with a kick push the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos
It's the Astral.
All the other planes are basically planets floating in it.
And Asmodeus answers:
-This is BAATOR – and with a kick push the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos
And we all know that Asmodeus is the MASTER of BAATOR. heehee:D
It's horribly contrived, try not to think about it too much.
But I like the ridiculous mental images.
It's horribly contrived, try not to think about it too much.
MST3k Mantra. If you're wondering how its happened, don't think about it.
*TWANG!*
In 2E, there was only Ghaundaur.
Which, to me, means that Ghaundaur has a parrot.
Wait, does Jubilex exist in the Realms now or not?
In 2E, there was only Ghaundaur.
Which, to me, means that Ghaundaur has a parrot.
They both existed at the time, but Ghaunadar was the only one with a formal deific presence on Toril, and he accepted worship in Juiblex's name. The abyssal lord could have cared less it seemed, and Ghaunadar wasn't going to make much light of it in the event he changed his mind on the topic.
See, that is a retcon you just can't justify through anything.
-Eh, if you try hard enough, I'm sure an explanation can be made that makes sense.
Also it all hinges on Mystra's death.
Dweomerhome exploded with her death, sending Azuth flying and 'in a coma' essentially leaving him vulnerable to Asmodeus. The energies sprayed out by Dweomerhome could have easily weakened the bonds that held the planes together in the Great Wheel/3e Realms cosmology.
You are forgetting something important the Realms cosmology was not the Great Wheel
No way, the nine have nothing on the infinte Abyss. In the nine hells all you have are the nine lords.
And 99 dukes who are at least as powerful as all the minor no-name demon lords. ;)
Well, actually not even Ao would be able to push the Abyss somewhere since the Abyss is present not just in the realms cosmology but in many other cosmologies. I know that this is not relevant anymore, since in 4e there is only one core cosmology left. But the point is, even with Aos power, Asmodeus is not able to do that to the Abyss. But he did it anyway. :P
How, in the name of Lady of Pain, you can push a plane? Especially one like the Abyss
And why this ended the Blood War?
With a really big truck (big tire, big engine, big cab)
I don't like the corrupted mish-mash elementals and new archons
surprisingly the planes of fr have recieved the greatest attention so far, sadly not in quality but this is more core dnd's fault
Asmodeus in 4e is not that interesting
Asmodeus in 3.Pathfinder isn't that interesting either.
You are forgetting something important the Realms cosmology was not the Great Wheel
You are forgetting something important the Realms cosmology.......it is no longer the Realms cosmology.
Asmodeus just held the plane. Ray Finkle kicked it into the Abyss. Good thing Asmodeus held it laces out.
-Even though I loath them, this is the perfect opportunity to bring up a Chuck Norris joke.
Asmodeus in 3.Pathfinder isn't that interesting either.
-Looks like...Sarah just signed her soul away. Poor girl...
-In my own game, the PCs opened an Iron Flask, and I was hoping to roll very high on the encounter table (my first roll was a '0') so that a Balor/Pit Fiend would emerge, and the PCs would have to wiggle their way extra carefully out of the situation. Sadly, I rolled a large Water Elemental.
What's wrong with the Pathfinder Asmodeus?
To date nothing, really. His description in the PF Campaign Setting isn't long enought. Though we'll see in october, when the Pathfinders Gods & Magic will be released.
For now, I just don't like the pic. Looks more like Mephistopheles imo.
but Asmodeus' background in Golarion also ain't that interesting
Well, yeah. I was a little surprised about this until I figured out that Asmodeus was sitting in the outhouse for a couple thousand millennia, and I figured after he finally got out that turd, he could push anything.
Prolly where he gained the Daily: Push Plane: Push plane 2 Squares. Add your Charisma Bonus to the number of Squares pushed if...
In reality Tharizdum broke free and remade reality.. joining the essences of unlimited chaos and evil with the elements he has always loved... and now rules supreme over that whole entity
In reality Tharizdum broke free and remade reality.. joining the essences of unlimited chaos and evil with the elements he has always loved... and now rules supreme over that whole entity
-But, it was the Spellplague that rewrote reality! What gives?
-Even though I loath them, this is the perfect opportunity to bring up a Chuck Norris joke.
Yes, but is Chuck Norris an avatar of Asmodeus? Or is Asmodeus an avatar of Chuck Norris?
-But, it was the Spellplague that rewrote reality! What gives?
That's just what Tharizdun *wants* you to think.
*Burupvrupvrupvrupvrup* <---- Kefka-like laugh.
Yes, but is Chuck Norris an avatar of Asmodeus? Or is Asmodeus an avatar of Chuck Norris?
-Either way, I don't...give a damn!
That's just what Tharizdun *wants* you to think.
-Unless...The Spellplague drove him crazy, and what he thinks isn't reality! Ah, the zaniness of it all!
-But, it was the Spellplague that rewrote reality! What gives?
The history of the core universe isn't the history of the Realms universe. Think of them as alternate realities. In one reality, the cosmology always featured the Astral Sea, Elemental Chaos, Far Realm, Feywild, and Shadowfell, while the other reality had a cosmology which featured a great wheel or great tree. Then some disaster happens in the second reality and it's reshaped to reflect the first. No affect on the first whatsoever.