There has always been one element of it that bugged me excessively.
The literal and known existence of the gods. I know this isn't uncommon in fantasy worlds,
but it's something that bugs me nevertheless. I prefer a real-world take on religion, where people create religion as a method of soul-searching, and it exists primarily in their minds and their hearts (or if there is absolute truth, it's not observable).
I actually quite like the various deities and pantheons of the realms, but I wish that they were mythical, like our own gods (and those of other settings like Eberron), rather than factual. Not only does it make more common sense, it makes both them and the world more interesting IMO.
However, it's difficult to just wave your hand and make it so, as so many of the events that occur in the world are heavily interlaced with the actions of the deities, and the same stories are *known* by people across the continent.
I guess I'm asking if it's possible to go about fixing this problem without seriously damaging the integrity of the realms, and how to go about doing it. Any advice would be appreciated.
I don't know that it could actually be done. FR's gods are a meddlesome bunch, no matter where you go in history. Get rid of the gods and you don't have FR, basically. It'd probably be better to stick to Eberron, honestly, if you want a setting without true divinity.
I for one wouldn't want it done period. Part of why I can't stand Eberron most days and won't even touch Dark Sun is the lack of real gods.
I like my fantasy worlds to be fantasy-ish.
...Yeah you know I can't really go into my feelings on this because it heavily involves my stance on RL religion. Suffice it to say I like settings with demonstratably real, active gods.
From what I understand the events from the Time of Troubles are the only section of Faerun's history that would be very difficult to explain without the presence of real gods. However, the story could simply be a mighty legend that spread among some of the followers of the Greater Faerunean pantheon, with its characters either never really existing or falling under some mysterious fate while searching for the fabled Tablets of Faith.
The other way, going back to the Time of Trouble suggested earlier I think is a better solution. You could have it that the Time of Troubles ended with the gods actually being wiped out while in their avatar forms (or that nobody knows if they were able to actually reascend as such).
I don't know that it could actually be done. FR's gods are a meddlesome bunch, no matter where you go in history. Get rid of the gods and you don't have FR, basically. It'd probably be better to stick to Eberron, honestly, if you want a setting without true divinity.
I for one wouldn't want it done period. Part of why I can't stand Eberron most days and won't even touch Dark Sun is the lack of real gods.
I like my fantasy worlds to be fantasy-ish.
...Yeah you know I can't really go into my feelings on this because it heavily involves my stance on RL religion. Suffice it to say I like settings with demonstratably real, active gods.
Are you implying that a setting with mythological religions instead of real, existent God-characters isn't fantasy-ish? Not to bait, but that seems awfully silly. I like for my worlds to have a certain level of realism and coherence.
Regardless, you might be right about the FR. I hate it, because that's about the only thing I like more about Eberron than the FR. I'm going to try before I give up though, like was suggested above I think that treating the Avatar stories as myth instead of fact will be the only necessary thing to do. Everything else can be explained by the belief of the people.
Good ideas, one of the things I was considering was having the descriptions of events like the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague be embellished fables to explain real events that they couldn't understand in any other way, like the ancient Greeks did in their writings.
YEah that makes sense, and like you said even more doable in 4e Realms, with Clerics more operating on faith instead of direct divine intervention.
The FR Campaign book states that Kara tur was hit just as hard by the spellplague as Faerun. But, Kara-turans don't recognize or venerate Mystra, so what is their explanation of the spellplague? I hope that gets detailed at some point.
The FR Campaign book states that Kara tur was hit just as hard by the spellplague as Faerun. But, Kara-turans don't recognize or venerate Mystra, so what is their explanation of the spellplague? I hope that gets detailed at some point.
Mystra was the source of magic across the world, even if you don't venerate her they may have venerated another diety of magic who was really just Mystra anyway (many gods disappearances in 4E are explained as being just aspects of another god, so it's not far fetched). When Mystra explodes and takes the weave and magic with her, I don't think believing in Mystra makes any difference if you explode with her.
Just have the history that is in the books to be a mix of history and myths, without a clear way of proving which is which at the time the game is actually playing out.
Real world religions have lots of documented miracles and such that are claimed to have happened, but it is difficult to prove they actually did. Yet there are relics and writings that are thought to have a direct connection to god(s).
The mechanics of the game don't have any trouble working with just faith based religions compared to having actual gods patting the clerics on the back.
In fact, my FR games could be run either way without much of a difference, since I have not had direct interference from the gods in the game much.
Just let some of the information from the novels and earlier campaign settings be more like stories rather than documented facts.
Also bearing in mind if you wish, under 4E divine magic is not directly granted by gods anymore (although in saying this it certainly can be if the DM wants for their world/setting). So you don't need special explanation as to why Divine Casters can perform their spells or anything silly either. Although to be honest, you might want to look at Dark Sun (whose gods are firmly dead), which is coming out this year. In that setting they've actually entirely removed divine classes from the game.
Yeah, I have every intention of picking up Dark Sun when it comes out, but I'd still love to 'fix' the realms for my standard fantasy flagship. I always thought the explanation for divine magic was really, really stupid in previous editions and heartily welcomed the fluff change in 4e.
Mystra was the source of magic across the world, even if you don't venerate her they may have venerated another diety of magic who was really just Mystra anyway (many gods disappearances in 4E are explained as being just aspects of another god, so it's not far fetched). When Mystra explodes and takes the weave and magic with her, I don't think believing in Mystra makes any difference if you explode with her.
no, but they would still have to rationalize the cause in some way. I'm curious to see if it would be the same as Faerun (xxx goddes of magic was murdered and the weave collapsed) or if they would have some other idea.
I don't see why you could not do it in a "more mythical" way.
Just have the history that is in the books to be a mix of history and myths, without a clear way of proving which is which at the time the game is actually playing out.
Real world religions have lots of documented miracles and such that are claimed to have happened, but it is difficult to prove they actually did. Yet there are relics and writings that are thought to have a direct connection to god(s).
The mechanics of the game don't have any trouble working with just faith based religions compared to having actual gods patting the clerics on the back.
In fact, my FR games could be run either way without much of a difference, since I have not had direct interference from the gods in the game much.
Just let some of the information from the novels and earlier campaign settings be more like stories rather than documented facts.
Yeah, I think that's pretty much what I'm going to do.
I don't think you have to do a lot to "fix" it. Real world religions have more than enough power and influence and nobody on earth knows if various deities do/don't exist. It really isn't that hard to explain many events. I am wondering are you intending to use the spellplague? Because if nobody knows if Mystra is real or not in your FR, how would you explain the cause of the Spellplague with gods that are unknown?
Well, since I'm running 4e there's really no way to circumvent the spellplague. However, it will simply be like other historical accounts. The explanation isn't clear on a scholarly level, and as most people follow the religion of the greater faerunian pantheon, their story will still involve the murder of mystra.
In actuality, it could just be related to the natural weakening of the planar veil with Abeir and the cataclysm resulting from their colliding, which no one has a full scientific understanding of.
I don't think anyone but the designers know that and given that we aren't getting more FR books, with Dragon articles preoccupied with detailing other things in the realms I doubt we'll ever know.
Is it certain we aren't getting any more books on any location in the Realms?
I don't think anyone but the designers know that and given that we aren't getting more FR books, with Dragon articles preoccupied with detailing other things in the realms I doubt we'll ever know.
Is it certain we aren't getting any more books on any location in the Realms?
I wouldn't say certain as in I would stake money or something on it. Given though each setting gets 1 main book, an adventure and a players hand book (except Dark Sun, which gets a Campaign Guide, a Dark Sun specific Monster Manual and an Adventure) the only further realms support will be in articles in Dragon/Dungeon. I don't see them publishing a source book on Kara-tur ever during 4Es lifetime (Dragonlance would be the next obvious setting for them to redo after next year to be honest), because having an article on Kara-tur in Dragon just doesn't seem pheasible.
In actuality, it could just be related to the natural weakening of the planar veil with Abeir and the cataclysm resulting from their colliding, which no one has a full scientific understanding of.
That's a really fantastic idea actually.
Is it certain we aren't getting any more books on any location in the Realms?
Yes that seems to be the plan with all the Settings, 3 books, thats it. It would be nice if we got some more books, Id love to see an updated Atlas, or a whole book on the Heraldry of the Realms, id buy that. Im very interested in Kara Tur as well, hopefully we shall see a Dragon article or 2 about it.
In game, the mythical nature may seem hard to pull of fin the Realms, what with the Time of Troublkes and Spellplague and all. Howver, thsioe are things that happened in the past. You don't necessarily have people *believe* all thats tuff.. even if it really happened.
Old geezer: No, really! In them days, the god walked the earth! I kid you not!
Grandson: Yeah, rigth gramps. Pull the other one. It has bells on.
We did get a Cormyr, and Sarifal DDI article. BRJ is working on a Vaasa article. So the 4E Realms is getting some DDI support. I would like more, but hey thats me.
I would love more as well. I would kill for an article on Thay.
I believe Lolth is next to be statted out in MM3. I guess they need threats for epic level opponents.
Correct. It appears every monster manual will have a high level daemon lord statted in it and serves as the books cover. It's a good trend and I'm quite interested to see how Lolth will differ statwise from Orcus and Demogorgon (especially as she's also a god).
Are you implying that a setting with mythological religions instead of real, existent God-characters isn't fantasy-ish? Not to bait, but that seems awfully silly. I like for my worlds to have a certain level of realism and coherence.
It hews too close to reality for my tastes if religion in fantasy is entirely mythical. I can't elaborate further than that, again, real-world religion, first rule of Fight Club, blahblah.
Also, nothing in having present, active, real gods prevents or detracts from realism and coherence, any more than having present, active, real magic or elves that somehow interbreed with humans despite being a different species, or geography that occasionally flies entirely in the face of what would actually happen in the real world does, and often less so, especially in the case of that last one. I personally feel that it greatly enhances the experience to have such a thing and further reinforces that this is a different world from the one in which I live my normal life. YMMV, of course.
(I suspect I'm your polar opposite, though. When I ran 3.5 in a homebrew setting using the core PHB gods, I banned clerics of ideals and brought in more members of the GH pantheon and used full racial pantheons. If you want divine power in a game I run, worship something divine. You have lots of choices, one of them has to appeal, and if not, we can probably work up a choice that does. And if you just plain don't like that your god is real and paying at least marginal attention to you and what you do, you probably shouldn't play a cleric, heh.)
That I can understand. I'd suggest simply de-retconning it, honestly. Probably the easiest way of doing it, and you don't have to come up with excuses for anything. ;)
Well here's my thing: In the real world religion takes a myriad of forms that are vastly different and spring up through acculturation. In the FR, there may be multiple gods, but there's only 1 religion, which is pretty lame IMO. The gods being real thing bothered me less whenever there were at least a variety of pantheons venerated by different cultures and races, instead of just one that housed all the gods of the realms. Something just made it seem less concrete and there was some level of mystery. Now that they've effectively retconned that, the whole thing just seems trite, simplistic, and uninteresting.
One thing that you could do, to bring back some of the magic of multiple pantheons, is to push the claim of "one pantheon" onto a specific priest or group in the Realms. Then have other priests completely denounce that priest as a heretic. Perhaps a priest of Hanali Celanil, a priest of Tyr, and a priest of Lathander come together and challenge the priest (or cult) that came up with such a radical and heretical idea.
Fights break out.... and the gods do not show up to favor one side or the other. Everyone can still cast priestly spells. But some in the populace want "answers" and none are still forthcoming. Give the radical priest some sort of underhanded motive for his claims, and have it come out. Or have him truly believe in his fanatical view, and go down under the heels of an angry group of other fanatics.
I agree, though. The new "simplistic" version of the gods is rather trite and makes the Realms feel less realistic. It doesn't have to be "true" in your own game, though.
Well here's my thing: In the real world religion takes a myriad of forms that are vastly different and spring up through acculturation. In the FR, there may be multiple gods, but there's only 1 religion, which is pretty lame IMO. The gods being real thing bothered me less whenever there were at least a variety of pantheons venerated by different cultures and races, instead of just one that housed all the gods of the realms. Something just made it seem less concrete and there was some level of mystery. Now that they've effectively retconned that, the whole thing just seems trite, simplistic, and uninteresting.
Well, theyve simplified it from the metagame perspective, but that doesnt necessarily mean thats the intent in-game. There are many examples of generic towns that worship their own little set of gods, for example, and I certainly wouldnt expect FR elves to start referring to Hanali as Sune or Sehanine as Selune. I dont know that the "single Faerunian religion" you speak of is really meant to be seen as such at the level of the individual Faerunian; that seems more the view from way out IRL or in advanced theological & philosophical lecture halls of Faerunian academies. The elven religion is still present img.
Well here's my thing: In the real world religion takes a myriad of forms that are vastly different and spring up through acculturation. In the FR, there may be multiple gods, but there's only 1 religion, which is pretty lame IMO. The gods being real thing bothered me less whenever there were at least a variety of pantheons venerated by different cultures and races, instead of just one that housed all the gods of the realms. Something just made it seem less concrete and there was some level of mystery. Now that they've effectively retconned that, the whole thing just seems trite, simplistic, and uninteresting.
Well, theyve simplified it from the metagame perspective, but that doesnt necessarily mean thats the intent in-game. There are many examples of generic towns that worship their own little set of gods, for example, and I certainly wouldnt expect FR elves to start referring to Hanali as Sune or Sehanine as Selune. I dont know that the "single Faerunian religion" you speak of is really meant to be seen as such at the level of the individual Faerunian; that seems more the view from way out IRL or in advanced theological & philosophical lecture halls of Faerunian academies. The elven religion is still present img.
I agree, to a point, but this particular metagame knowledge is something that is really hard to ignore either as a player or as a DM. If you're playing a priest of Hanali Celanil, down deep you really know the "real" story - unless your DM changes things up for their world.
Really amazing players can ignore metagame knowledge and still roleplay perfectly, but for many it's going to be like knowing a "spoiler" and having to put effort into playing like you don't know.
These beings have managed to tap into or merge with the universal energy that flows all around us.
I posted in the char-dev section about a FR character of mine that relates to this belief. Solusandra WAS a primordial "god" of creation/destruction with a radical idea that mortals could/should be equal to the "gods" with the proper guidance. Her desire to mentor the mortal races and eventually help them "Transition" pitted her primordial brothers and sisters against her, effectively stripping her of most of her memories and powers (child-like state). This made her vulnerable to the other "gods", who all attacked her. An instinctive reflex allowed her to survive by infusing one of her essence shards with sentience and descending to the mortal plane of existence while th rest were scattered to cosmic winds.
With the Spellplague and impact with Abeir-Toril, Solusandra woke from her eons-old slumber and emerged from what is now called Returned-Abeir. She is a firesoul genasi who looks human with orange eyes and molten hair.
Well here's my thing: In the real world religion takes a myriad of forms that are vastly different and spring up through acculturation. In the FR, there may be multiple gods, but there's only 1 religion, which is pretty lame IMO. The gods being real thing bothered me less whenever there were at least a variety of pantheons venerated by different cultures and races, instead of just one that housed all the gods of the realms. Something just made it seem less concrete and there was some level of mystery. Now that they've effectively retconned that, the whole thing just seems trite, simplistic, and uninteresting.
The dwarves, elves and gnomes have their own pantheons, essentially their own religions.
There is also..um..adama? don't remember...
anyway, it makes sense to me for a world in which gods are clearly and obviously extant would have less acculturation in these terms than the real world.
Well here's my thing: In the real world religion takes a myriad of forms that are vastly different and spring up through acculturation. In the FR, there may be multiple gods, but there's only 1 religion, which is pretty lame IMO. The gods being real thing bothered me less whenever there were at least a variety of pantheons venerated by different cultures and races, instead of just one that housed all the gods of the realms. Something just made it seem less concrete and there was some level of mystery. Now that they've effectively retconned that, the whole thing just seems trite, simplistic, and uninteresting.
The dwarves, elves and gnomes have their own pantheons, essentially their own religions.
There is also..um..adama? don't remember...
anyway, it makes sense to me for a world in which gods are clearly and obviously extant would have less acculturation in these terms than the real world.
Canonically speaking, this is not true. All of the deities have been retconned into being part of a singular faerunian pantheon, hence, a singular religion. Adama I believe is more of a life philosophy, like buddhism, without the attached religious view.
Anyway, I also felt maybe that they were only called gods by fantasy coventions, and should really be viewed as something different, but the point remains that they are part of the peoples' religion, of which there is little variation. People may worship different gods, but they all share the same factual knowledge of the world/cosmic structure.
I just think it's kind of dumb to try to answer everything about world's history and mechanics. A lot of it should honestly be left to mystery, both to players and characters, to be possibly fleshed out by individual campaigns. Religious views should be treated symbolically, not literally.
Well here's my thing: In the real world religion takes a myriad of forms that are vastly different and spring up through acculturation. In the FR, there may be multiple gods, but there's only 1 religion, which is pretty lame IMO. The gods being real thing bothered me less whenever there were at least a variety of pantheons venerated by different cultures and races, instead of just one that housed all the gods of the realms. Something just made it seem less concrete and there was some level of mystery. Now that they've effectively retconned that, the whole thing just seems trite, simplistic, and uninteresting.
The dwarves, elves and gnomes have their own pantheons, essentially their own religions.
There is also..um..adama? don't remember...
anyway, it makes sense to me for a world in which gods are clearly and obviously extant would have less acculturation in these terms than the real world.
Canonically speaking, this is not true. All of the deities have been retconned into being part of a singular faerunian pantheon, hence, a singular religion. Adama I believe is more of a life philosophy, like buddhism, without the attached religious view.
Anyway, I also felt maybe that they were only called gods by fantasy coventions, and should really be viewed as something different, but the point remains that they are part of the peoples' religion, of which there is little variation. People may worship different gods, but they all share the same factual knowledge of the world/cosmic structure.
I just think it's kind of dumb to try to answer everything about world's history and mechanics. A lot of it should honestly be left to mystery, both to players and characters, to be possibly fleshed out by individual campaigns. Religious views should be treated symbolically, not literally.
That isn't actually true. Moradin is the cheif dwarven god. his court, whose name I can't remember, are dwarven gods. None of them are aspects of general purpose gods.
Same thing with Correllon and the elves, and the Seldarine. The gnomes hang out with the Elven gods, but they're still gnomish gods.
Dwarfhome
Moradin’s wondrous kingdom glorifies the ideals
of craft, labor, and wealth. Its surface is a stretch of
beautiful crags that teem with life. Upon and under-
neath these mountains, the dwarven deities live and
work. At the heart of it all is the great hall of Moradin
and his wife Berronar, called Erackinor, where rests
Moradin’s Soul Forge.
Moradin
The Soul Forger
Lawful Good Greater God
The All-Father forged the dwarf
people from gems and
precious metals in a fur-
nace at the heart of the
world, and imbued them
with unf lagging courage and
a tireless work ethic. He is the
undisputed King of Dwarfhome,
where he leads the Moradinsam-
man, a fiercely loyal cadre of gods and exarchs. His
faithful wife Berronar Truesilver is most often found
at his side.
Virtually incapable of compromise, stern and
unforgiving, Moradin is a tireless champion of dwar-
ven values, unafraid even in the face of other deities.
More than once the Moradinsamman have marched
across the cosmos at the command of their king.
Priests of Moradin are drawn from the finest
dwarven clans. They inspire their comrades to stand
firm against insurmountable odds. Their ability
to invoke a battle frenzy in their fellow dwarves is
renowned.
Corellon
First of the Seldarine
Good Greater God
Legends of the epic battles
between Corellon (sometimes
called Corellon Larethian) and
Gruumsh are the most repeated
in the history of Toril. During that
great struggle, the eladrin were born
of Corellon’s blood. He is the benevolent
ruler of Arvandor and the leader of the
Seldarine (“the fellowship of brothers and sisters of the wood”), god and exarchs who embody
the eladrin’s proud and ancient traditions.
Though he is a skilled warrior, it is his love of the
eladrin and their great works of magic and beauty
that inspires Corellon. That inspiration is returned to
his people a thousandfold.
Corellon’s feywardens are charged with protecting
the traditions and works of their race. They turn aside
political power, acting as advisors to the kings and
queens of the elven realms.
The holiest day for Corellites is Shieldmeet, but
every month they gather under the crescent moon
to observe Lateu’quor, the Forest Communion of the
Crescent Moon, praising their deity with a multitude
of beautiful works.
Arvandor
Arvandor is a place of natural beauty and magic
even greater than that of the Feywild. The deities
that share Arvandor claim separate areas, but few
acknowledge precise borders. All agree that Arvan-
dor centers on Corellon’s palace, Crescent Grove,
where he lives with his queen, Angharradh.
Scattered throughout Arvandor are seven vast
and rolling hills covered with beautiful golden grass.
The Seven Golden Hills are primarily gnome realms,
though the gnome divinities live and wander where
they wish.
They are definately racial gods.
And because I'm used to the 3.5 terminology, what planes are they?
Feywild = ?
Shadowfell = Plane of Shadow
etc.
I'm sorry I don't remember anymore of them, I'm not much into 4e.
Edit: Fixed name spelling.
I noticed something about Arvandor not being Feywild. I always thought they are one of the same.
And because I'm used to the 3.5 terminology, what planes are they?
Feywild = ?
Shadowfell = Plane of Shadow
etc.
I'm sorry I don't remember anymore of them, I'm not much into 4e.
Feywild= Faerie
Astral Sea = where all the various dominions of the gods are
Elemental Chaos= all the elemental planes thrown together, stirred a bit, with some random scary thrown in there, along with the Abyss(now seperate from the nine hells) and the City of Brass.