"Seek out creatures who bear the curse of lycan-thropy, curing those who hope to end their affliction and destroying those who have suc-cumbed to the beast within" (p. 152).
This implies that lycanthropy is a curable affliction, whereas the 4E Monster Manual indicates that it is "hereditary" and cannot be contracted by infection. Do priestesses of Selûne have some extraordinary means of removing lycanthropy?
This implies that lycanthropy is a curable affliction, whereas the 4E Monster Manual indicates that it is "hereditary" and cannot be contracted by infection. Do priestesses of Selûne have some extraordinary means of removing lycanthropy?
No, it means that they did a cut and paste on 3e color text without thinking about what they were doing.
No, it means that they did a cut and paste on 3e color text without thinking about what they were doing.
Quite possibly, but I'm hoping for a more productive answer.
The problem is that while 4E core reinvisaged what lycanthropes are, the FR fluff did not (even though the Spellplague, which was used as a rationale for every other change, would have been fine for this one too). As such, the FR setting is out of sync with the core on this issue.
If you want to, just change lycanthropes in your world so that they are diseased or cursed.
That immediately leads to the question of 'what happens if a PC is infected/cursed', which is presumably why Wizards changed it in the first place.
If you want to, just change lycanthropes in your world so that they are diseased or cursed.
I'm not the DM in this campaign, so I can't make that call.
In any case, I don't disagree with the idea of hereditary lycanthropy, particularly since real world mythology regarding lycanthropes did not include the notion of contracting lycanthropy by being bitten. This is a recent invention that appears in 20th century horror writing.
What I was wondering was whether followers of Selûne had some extraordinary means of curing lycanthropy; a sort of magical gene-therapy, if you will.
In the 3E (and earlier) FR, lycanthropy could be both hereditary and infections; both types existed (hereditary lycanthropes could infect others).
As a complication to this, the 3E FR threw out most of the alignment strictures of lycanthropes from core; the beast form of a lycanthrope didn't necessarily indicate its alignment. (In 3E core, a werewolf was 'always chaotic evil' and a werebear was 'always lawful good' for example - but in the FR a werewolf or werebear could be any alignment and there were statted NPCs of this type (Selune-worshipping CG werewolves, a NE Malarite werebear, etc).
Selune and Malar were constantly contesting the destiny of lycanthropes; Selune's faithful focused on curing* infected lycanthropes who were driven to evil (or destroying true lycanthropes who were the same), though they were often allied with (and even included among their ranks) the nonevil ones.
4E reinterpreted the idea of lycanthropy in the core as being hereditary-only, but the FR team apparently decided that 'infection gone wild and now they're all evil' was the way to go, so they both contradicted (in some sense) earlier FR lore AND ended up with a definition that is also contradictory to the core.
* Curing it was generally done by means of Remove Curse or Cure Disease spells.
4E reinterpreted the idea of lycanthropy in the core as being hereditary-only, but the FR team apparently decided that 'infection gone wild and now they're all evil' was the way to go, so they both contradicted (in some sense) earlier FR lore AND ended up with a definition that is also contradictory to the core.
* Curing it was generally done by means of Remove Curse or Cure Disease spells.
I suspect that you're right about all this being an editorial/design glitch, a failure to double check for consistency and to think carefully about the ripple effects of certain changes. But there it is, so let's work with it.
The FRPG states the Selûne encourages her followers to:
"Seek out creatures who bear the curse of lycanthropy [therianthropy?], curing those who hope to end their affliction and destroying those who have succumbed to the beast within." (FRPG 152)
This may be interpreted to mean that her followers are exhorted to cure only those who want to end their lycanthropy, and to destroy only those who have "succumbed to the beast within". This may be interpreted to mean those who have relinquished self control in favor of bestial, violent, self-gratification, ie. evil alignment. This, in turn, means that followers of Selûne are not to do anything to good or neutrally aligned lycanthropes; which is consistent with Forgotten Realms understandings of Selûne´s attitude towards lycanthropes.
At this point, the Monster Manual only includes two forms of lycanthropy: wererats and werewolves, both of which are listed as "evil", as they were in previous editions. This does not, however, mean that all wererats and all werewolves need necessarily be evil, any more than the fact that drow have traditionally been "evil" means that all drow are necessarily of that alignment. Future iterations of the Monster Manual may include other "lycanthropes", such as wereravens and werebears, which have traditionally been good or neutral in alignment. I think the issue of alignment and the nature of lycanthropy may be seen as entirely separate issues.
In short, I don't agree that the fact that lycanthropy is now hereditary implies that this is a case of "infection gone wild and now they're all evil".
Thanks for the ideas on curing. I don't think "cure disease" is the right thing for the job, and "Remove Curse" no longer exists, as far as I can tell. However, the 8th level "Remove Affliction" ritual (PHB 311) looks well suited to removing the hereditary "curse/affliction" of lycanthropy. It has the triple advantage of being high-level, very dangerous and requiring either the willingness or forced submission of the recipient. Making it work would be a question of assigning a level to the hereditary "curse" of lycanthropy, which would be applied against the healing modifier of the ritual caster. I would suggest something very high, like +20 vs. Heal; similar to some of highest level diseases (DMG 50).
"Silverstars are particularly interested in combating the dark side of lycanthropy. They wander Toril in search of werecreatures , hoping to aid them in maintaining control or regaining control [over their lycanthropy], or destroying those have allowed their humanity to be overwhelmed by their affliction." (FRCG p. 76)
Here, again, lycanthropy is refered to as an "affliction". But there is no mention of a cure. Also, there is no mention of what how Silverstars might help lycanthropes to maintain or (re)gain control over their nature.
This quote seems to support the interpretation I offered of the FRPG entry regarding Selûnite attitudes toward lycanthropes. But the question of "curing" the "affliction" remains open.
Of course the other way is to say that it works differently for NPCs and PCs. I don't really have a problem with that either.
Personally I prefer the idea that lycanthropes can transmit their curse as it's more in keeping with traditional myth.
Actually, traditional --and here I mean centuries old-- werewolf mythology does not, as far as I´m aware, include the notion that lycanthropy is a transmittable disease. Traditionally, persons became werewolves by arcane means (pacts with the devil, avatars for spirit creatures, wearing a werewolf´s skin, etc.), or as a possible result of odd convergences of health, birth and lunar events (being born the seventh son under a new moon, having an epileptic seizure under a full moon, etc.) As far as I know, the notion of being infected by a bite appears for the first time in twentieth century horror fiction.
But none of that matters much really. For our purposes, it´s a question of design preference and workable game mechanics.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/242971-lycanthrope-pc-races.html
For a more classic 'curse/affliction' lycanthropy, I came up with a version that treats lycanthropy as a multiclass feat here.
thanks, Anthony. Nice work. I´ve gone the route of racial powers, rather than multiclass feats. This is, in part to reflect the hereditary nature of 4E lycanthropy.
thanks, Anthony. Nice work. I´ve gone the route of racial powers, rather than multiclass feats. This is, in part to reflect the hereditary nature of 4E lycanthropy.
I went with multiclass feats because (a) I liked the pre-4e flavor text, and (b) power replacement (rather than bonus powers) means you can actually give quite potent abilities without balance issues.
Incidentally, I just noticed that I didn't give were-vipers a daily attack. Thoughts? My first instinct is some form of mesmeric power.
Incidentally, I just noticed that I didn't give were-vipers a daily attack. Thoughts? My first instinct is some form of mesmeric power.
That sounds about right. I'm picturing Ka in Jungle Book: "Trusssst in meeeeee" :D
I would use a hypnotic power to create the "Dominated" condition: Target is dominated until the end of your next turn.
I'm not the DM in this campaign, so I can't make that call.
In any case, I don't disagree with the idea of hereditary lycanthropy, particularly since real world mythology regarding lycanthropes did not include the notion of contracting lycanthropy by being bitten. This is a recent invention that appears in 20th century horror writing.
True, but there's lots of lore about people becoming werewolves through other means, such as for example through a ritual, or as a punishment for offending the gods (such as in the Greek myth about Lycaon). I'm sure there's more out there, but most of the stories I've read haven't been about people being born werewolves. In fact the tales that immediately come to mind of people being born werewolves didn't involve inheriting it, but rather being cursed with it for some reason or another at birth. It would be nice if some RPG would go the route of becoming a werewolf through bite, or through simply being born that way. Some really interesting things could come out of playing around with the whole cursed by the gods bit, and the whole becoming a werewolf through ritualistic means bit (perhaps someone was trying to become godlike through some terrible ritual, and a ticked off deity decided the ritual would work...but not quite as intended).
The other issue is that lycanthropy might not always be a negative thing in a fantasy setting. In 3E FR and earlier it was sometimes bestowed as a blessing by a benevolent power (the individual retaining full control of themselves, of course) and a ritual might have the same intent. Outside of D&D, this was done in a similar fashion in the old CRPG "Quest for Glory 3" where the shapeshifter jungle tribes were essentially ritual-lycanthropes (the animal form depending on the tribal totem; the leopardmen being the ones who featured in the game) but they still had full control while shapeshifted.
SKR covered the ritual bit in one of his 3E books (Curse of the Moon), along with cursed versions.
The other issue is that lycanthropy might not always be a negative thing in a fantasy setting. In 3E FR and earlier it was sometimes bestowed as a blessing by a benevolent power (the individual retaining full control of themselves, of course) and a ritual might have the same intent.
A good example of blessed therianthropes is Tom Costa's "New Moon Hunter", a prestige class of were-creatures who are members of the New Moon Pact, a secretive group of Selûne worshipping, good-aligned therianthropes that hunt evil were-creatures with the blessing of the moon goddess. The "New Moon Hunter PrC" appears in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 2, which summarizes most of the lore about the The New Moon Pact contained in the FR novel Mistress of the Night by Don Bassingthwaite and Dave Gross.
The Bestiary can be found here: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html
Outside of D&D, this was done in a similar fashion in the old CRPG "Quest for Glory 3" where the shapeshifter jungle tribes were essentially ritual-lycanthropes (the animal form depending on the tribal totem; the leopardmen being the ones who featured in the game) but they still had full control while shapeshifted.
This reflects Meso-American mythology. The Popol Vuh, roughly the Mayan Bible, contains a number of stories that include animal-human shapechangers; among them, the jaguar-man.
I know it doesn't say it turns you into one, but seriously, it's just as good. And surprise surprise, you can cure it with a Ritual!
Yeah, maybe it no longer slaps some outrageous template onto you anymore, but to me at least, it is transferred lycantrophy.
I looked at the disease that Werewolves can give you. I thought to myself, "So, it can make you go berserk and murder everything in front of you? Guess it turns you into a werewolf".
I know it doesn't say it turns you into one, but seriously, it's just as good. And surprise surprise, you can cure it with a Ritual!
Yeah, maybe it no longer slaps some outrageous template onto you anymore, but to me at least, it is transferred lycantrophy.
I agree. I like the rabies-like disease. I also like the way they've set up the disease progression.
Do priestesses of Selûne have some extraordinary means of removing lycanthropy?
-Presumably, being that Lycanthropy is something Selûne's church deals with, her followers are knowledgeable on the subject; this may translate into magical spells that perform to remove Lycanthropy, or simply knowledge of items and so on, that do.
Its actually possible, since we've identified both the genetic factors involved and the parts of the brain that handle such things (and hormonal factors as well).
However, we make the assumption that such a person is 'broken', which is psychologically damaging.
In Eberron (and I suppose in 4e FR), we have Shifters - a race of that derived from Lycanthropes (obviously evolution occurs on Eberron). I really doubt they would consider themselves 'sick', or 'damaged', and in need of fixing.
I see Selune's church being more about nurturing Lycanthropes, and teaching them and others to accept each-other and to work together, and not act like 'monsters' (or be treated as such).
Cursed Lycanthropes I can see seeking help, but I think they would go to something like Lathander's church (or Aumanator in 4e) rather then Selune - why should she help people move away from their connection to her (through the moon)?
Hereditary and affliction, each with their own pros and cons...
In the end, both could be in need of a 'cure' in ones view.
However, wouldn't finding a 'cure' be akin to the RW debate about a 'cure' for ****sexuality?
Its actually possible, since we've identified both the genetic factors involved and the parts of the brain that handle such things (and hormonal factors as well).
However, we make the assumption that such a person is 'broken', which is psychologically damaging.
This is true, of course, in the 21st century secular west. But I don't see this as relevent in a pseudo-medieval fantasy setting in which religious views and conduct are based on "real" millennial struggles between gods that are part of an extra-planer pantheon that exists and interacts with the material world.
I see Selune's church being more about nurturing Lycanthropes, and teaching them and others to accept each-other and to work together, and not act like 'monsters' (or be treated as such).
Cursed Lycanthropes I can see seeking help, but I think they would go to something like Lathander's church (or Aumanator in 4e) rather then Selune - why should she help people move away from their connection to her (through the moon)?
As far as I can tell from FR novels and supplements, Selûnite followers and the Moonmaiden herself have been traditionally tolerant of many good and neutral aligned beliefs. As such, they are tolerant, even, as you say, nurturing of good and neutral aligned lycanthropes. But they are intolerant toward evil-aligned lycanthropes, which they view as servants, willingly or unwittingly, of Malar and of Shar, the Mistress of the Night, both enemies of the Moonmaiden, and therefore in need of destruction. The issue is not so much lycanthropy, but rather moral and religious alignment.
I think the FR novels and setting bear out that real world 20th century secular, humanistic notions of perspectivism and religious relativism are not part of common thought in Forgotten Realms. I suspect that Storm Silverhand´s observation --in your signature-- is significant precisely because she is expressing an uncommon view.
Do priestesses of Selûne have some extraordinary means of removing lycanthropy?
Judging from that sentence, yes, they do. However, your DM may have to invent it.
I recommend some sort of sacred moon pool that functions as a unique magic item blessed by the goddess's direct power.
On the other hand, a "cure" may not involve making the character no longer a lycanthrope. It may just cure any extraordinary bloodlust they're cursed with, effectively changing their alignment.
It might also transform the character into a shifter.
It might also transform the character into a shifter.
Thats sounds about right (or the one about "removing Bloodlust").
I just don't see a Moon Goddess dis-associating herself with a large group of potential worshippers.
Let the other 'good' gods (or rather, their priesthoods) remove the Lycanrhtopy - Selune should be about making it work.
The curse is rather evil and chaotic as lycanthropy is transmitted through wounds made by werecreatures. If this was the intention of the first curse the source of it might have been a vengeful fey or other malevolent spirit. A natural lycan might have been cursed a second time to create the effect of transmitting his lycanthropy. This somehow doesn't fit well with me.
Natural lycanthropes would be the descendants of the first lycan who's very blood carries the curse till this day. These would develope strange fits during early adolescance but would have more opportunity to gradually accept what they are werecreatures, resulting in more control of the Beast. These souls would make great allies to Selune's clergy, and in turn the clergy can coax their psychology to accept their status.
Afflicted lycantrophy will likely result in more psychological damage and less control of the Beast. Selune's clergy already handles the care of mentally disordered people and lycanthrophy can best be treated with the care that the Moongodess' clergy can offer. In 3.5 terms, they have acces to tomes and mystics that teach the control shape skill.
Lycanthropes have existed since the first humanoid or animal was cursed. This unfortunate lad, gal or beast was probably turned into a werebear or wolf. Not clear what crime the subject had done but I like to think it was killing his own spawn or something else held sacred to early furtility cults of primitive humans. Hence the lunar connection, as the phases of the moon might have had profound influence on menstruation cycles. The werecreature was cursed to relive the suffering and rage felt by the mother animal/humanoid during the sanctity of the full moon.
Interesting. What TSR or WOTC product did you get this lore from? Or is this your take on the origin and nature of Lycanthropes?
as to their existance, cant say, but if you haven't heard, anything they still exist
What's with Lythari? Do they still exist in 4Ed and to wich god are they drawn? Weren't they mostly servants of Selûne or was it the elven goddess who they said it became her? They were good alligned and they were born as lycans. Don't thought that they were cursed or something like that. I had the feeling they were this kind of creature from the beginning, as a kind of good shapechangers of the Fearie. Wasn't there even something that they had their hands in bringing green elves to the Realms via portals?
-If something isn't explicitly stated as not existing any longer, they do exist, albeit they haven't been mentioned yet.
-More information about Lythari can be found in Elves of Faerûn.
Interesting. What TSR or WOTC product did you get this lore from? Or is this your take on the origin and nature of Lycanthropes?
Stole a bit from here, added some bits of lore from WoD and stirred it with some flavour of my own.
I like that the curse/blessing was devised by mortals as in WoD (see here), where garou were created by human tribes seeking to learn of the hunt from their neigbours, the wolf tribes. At this ritual under the moon the union of shamen and wolf created the first natural werewolves.
But LK has the right of it. This board has discussed this earlier, sometime before the boardmerger so the thread got lost.
Gonna cajole Ed into lifting some NDA's on this. :D
Sometimes, it doesn't matter how much you like something if it doesn't fit the setting.
The Underworld plot really doesn't work well (without modifying a bunch of stuff), but I don't really recall the basis of it in the WoD setting.
Maybe spin it as an outgrowth of Malar's 'nature' aspect - doesn't his church hate Undead? (it should) I'm not near my books right now so I can't check F&A.
I can see Malar creating the Lycanthropes (perhaps with selune's help even) in order to destroy Undead.... that may be a way to bring that whole conflict into FR. And, of course, bringing in Selune as a co-cospirator that felt guilty when the whole thing got out of conrtol and now tries to turn it around. I'll have to think on that...
Ed's been triple-asked about Lycanthropy over at CK, so I'll await his take before I decide what to do.
I have a question about something mentioned in the 4E FRPG. In the "Deities of Toril" section, under the description of Selûne, it says that her followers:
"Seek out creatures who bear the curse of lycan-thropy, curing those who hope to end their affliction and destroying those who have suc-cumbed to the beast within" (p. 152).
This implies that lycanthropy is a curable affliction, whereas the 4E Monster Manual indicates that it is "hereditary" and cannot be contracted by infection. Do priestesses of Selûne have some extraordinary means of removing lycanthropy?
It probably is just imprecise language. The FRCG states Silverstars "wander Toril in search of werecreatures, hoping tonaid them in maintaining or regaining control, or destroying those who have allowed their humanity to be overwhelmed by their affliction." FRCG p. 76.
However, in the back of the book their is a wereserpent write-up that notes that lycanthorpy is hereditary on an Nature DC 15 check, but that sarrukh can change humans into wereserpents on a DC 30 check. FRCG 270-71. If you can create one you probably can cure one...probably a high level ritual.
Maybe spin it as an outgrowth of Malar's 'nature' aspect - doesn't his church hate Undead? (it should) I'm not near my books right now so I can't check F&A.
I can see Malar creating the Lycanthropes (perhaps with selune's help even) in order to destroy Undead.... that may be a way to bring that whole conflict into FR. And, of course, bringing in Selune as a co-cospirator that felt guilty when the whole thing got out of conrtol and now tries to turn it around. I'll have to think on that...
This could work out nicely. The creation of werepredators against some ancient undead rising, perhaps even as ancient as the final days of the war of Light and Dark.
But somewhere along the hunt the lycanthrophes disgraced some oath and got cursed with the Beast madness. I suspect Malar twisting them, but I prefer a more fey or primal spirit solution to the contagious werewolf curse.
The 'higher-ups' could even be Creator-race Liches (like those Sarrukh ones in Orome).
In the ancient days some of the Sarrukh, and possibly the Batrachi, used undead minions against the Fey (who revolve around 'natural order') and maybe the Aeerie. Malar, being a VERY ancient god (Primal spirit in 4e) may have taken primitive humans (being the fifth creator race) and turned them into 'weapons' to be used against the Eminence (with Selune's help).
Once the threat was over (the Eminence was based in that part of the world that wound-up on Abeir), Selune would have wanted to 'clean-up' the mess, but Malar would have wanted the Lycanthropes to continue and become more savage. Either way, both deities would have wanted the Lycanthropes to continue to exist, just in-case the threat ever arose again.
With the return of the Eminence of Araunt to Toril, the ancient emnities have re-stirred, and the Necro-Lycan Wars have started-up all over again.
If you don't use 4e, you can still use the Eminence, and just say someone opened-up a sealed tomb or demi-plane or some-such which caused their 'return'.
Hell... do we even know who 'Araunt' is? We can take that and spin it any way we like...
Two... TWO zombies! Heh eh eh....
We should really stat him up. :D
...you...
...you've... found Ao!
...you...
...you've... found Ao!
I not understand. Ao not been found after time of trouble yes?
If 'The Count' is Ao, then Bigbird must be Mystra... and we are ALL in trouble. :P