Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 overworkeddm Mar 06, 2009 18:32:15	Hello all, A pc in one of the campaigns I'm running(3.5 rules, pre-spellplague, and thayan civil war) is playing a Rashemi hexblade, from Thay. He looked up the class chronicles aricle on hexblades, to see where in Faerun hexblade training academies can be found. Apparently there's only one, the Hexcidon, and its in Thay. It says in the class chronicles article that the Hexcidon trains generations of elite bodyguards and generals for Thay. The whole reason for this discussion is that my pc was wondering if I could come up with some kind of prestige class for the academy, since there aren't any hexblade specific prestige classes. I am fully aware as the DM I can make up whatever I want, I am just interested to see what input you guys have. I'm looking for any ideas on what this class should be like, what class features it would have, etc. My idea was to focus on the hexblades cursing abilities, and building on his anti-caster abilities, which in my opinion makes sense, since the red wizards would most fear their own brethren, so a bodyguard should be able to defend against them. I'm not set on this idea though, so any input would be most appreciated. thanks in advance as always.
#2 sfdragon Mar 06, 2009 20:02:52	there is a Thayan Knight prc..... Hex blade X/ TK X should work.
#3 overworkeddm Mar 06, 2009 20:33:48	there is a Thayan Knight prc..... Hex blade X/ TK X should work. I'm aware of the Thayan Knight class, but it doesn't work for this instance. I'm wanting help in designing a class that is specifically for the hexblade base class, specifically a hexblade who studied at the hexcidon in Thay.
#4 sfdragon Mar 06, 2009 20:58:41	hmmmm...... around mage killing and cursing.... you know, I'd have to take a look and several existing prcs and take what I like from them and combine those into one prcs. Occult Slayer Mage Killer would be the top two I'd look into. but Sfdragon is being very irresponsible right now, I'm posting instead of doing my homework. So I'll have to look them up later. but anyway , what your homegrown prc must have is Full bab, half spell progression or full spell progression depending on it being 5 or 10 lvls.
#5 lord_karsus Mar 06, 2009 21:08:37	but Sfdragon is being very irresponsible right now, I'm posting instead of doing my homework. -Homework is for squares. Don't be a square. ;) -As for the "Hex Knight of Thay". I like the concept. -Hmm...Hexblade "curse abilities" that mess with a caster. Maybe one that lowers the affected casters' effective caster level? One that raises the DC the caster needs to beat, with certain spells? One that make the caster not able to use somatic/verbal/both components, necessitating the use of spells without them, or spells with Metamagic/Sudden Metamagic attachments? Things like that.
#6 overworkeddm Mar 07, 2009 17:31:48	-Hmm...Hexblade "curse abilities" that mess with a caster. Maybe one that lowers the affected casters' effective caster level? One that raises the DC the caster needs to beat, with certain spells? One that make the caster not able to use somatic/verbal/both components, necessitating the use of spells without them, or spells with Metamagic/Sudden Metamagic attachments? Things like that. All good ideas. There is actually a curse feat in Dragon #339 called curse of distraction. It forces any spellcaster affected by it to succeed on a concentration check in order to cast any spell. The DC is dependent on what level of curse you are at(improved, greater, dire)plus the level of the spell you are trying to cast, and the DC's are actually surprisingly high. This feat in addition to magic resistance and mettle, as well as good saves make the hexblade a pretty effective anti-caster already. I was thinking of improving on some of those things, and possibly adding some other features that relate to the whole anti-caster theme, possibly mirroring some of the things in the Occult slayer class. Keep the input coming, all good stuff.
#7 Diffan Mar 07, 2009 23:49:52	Though I'm AFB right now, I like LK's idea of a hexblade's curse also reducing the caster-level of spellcasters (arcane and divine) included. You could expand the Hexblade's spell list as well by adding Curses found in other caster's lists like Curse of Impending Blades and Curse of Ill Fortune. This can be in addition to allowing the Hexblade and his Hex Knight of Thay class levels to stack for the purposes of his hexing ability and possibly spell-casting. I'd also start with making the building blocks for the PrC. d10 Hit Die Good Base Attack Bonus Poor Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will saving throws (If you want the Hex Knight to have better Fort saves, then I'd suggest a decrease in HD, like d8, but never anything less than that) Skill Points per level: 2 + Int. modifier
#8 overworkeddm Mar 08, 2009 17:11:34	Though I'm AFB right now, I like LK's idea of a hexblade's curse also reducing the caster-level of spellcasters (arcane and divine) included. You could expand the Hexblade's spell list as well by adding Curses found in other caster's lists like Curse of Impending Blades and Curse of Ill Fortune. This can be in addition to allowing the Hexblade and his Hex Knight of Thay class levels to stack for the purposes of his hexing ability and possibly spell-casting. I'd also start with making the building blocks for the PrC. d10 Hit Die Good Base Attack Bonus Poor Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Good Will saving throws (If you want the Hex Knight to have better Fort saves, then I'd suggest a decrease in HD, like d8, but never anything less than that) Skill Points per level: 2 + Int. modifier I like your suggestions. Mike mearls, one of the lead designers for the hexblade class, came out with some suggestions for updating the hexblade to 3.5. One of the suggestions was improving their fortitude saves to good, while keeping the d10 hit die and full BAB. I'm not sure if you could get away with this in a prc though, especially with full spell progression, but who knows. Keep it coming, this is all great stuff!
#9 lord_karsus Mar 08, 2009 19:06:43	I like your suggestions. Mike mearls, one of the lead designers for the hexblade class, came out with some suggestions for updating the hexblade to 3.5. One of the suggestions was improving their fortitude saves to good, while keeping the d10 hit die and full BAB. I'm not sure if you could get away with this in a prc though, especially with full spell progression, but who knows. Keep it coming, this is all great stuff! -Yeah, I remember just reading that the other day. Since the class was one of the first "expanded classes" that came out, they thought it would have been a little too powerful if given that stuff. It wasn't, and because of everything, the class got a little weakened because of the lowered stats and whatnot.
#10 bonzai Mar 09, 2009 12:52:11	I agree, Hexblade is a tough class to branch out of. You don't get your final Curse until lvl 19, and the DC for your curse is based on your hexblade level. However, if I were to make a Hexblade PrC, it would look something like this. D10 Lvl BAB Fort Refl Will Ability Spellcasting 1 1 0 0 0 Chaos Infusion 1/day +1 arcane 2 2 1 1 1 Wracking Curse +1 Arcane 3 3 1 1 1 Empowered Curse 1/day +1 Arcane 4 4 1 1 2 Extra Curse +1 Arcane 5 5 2 2 2 Chaos Deflection 1/day +1 Arcane 6 6 2 2 3 Chaos Infusion 2/day +1 Arcane 7 7 2 2 3 Extra Curse +1 Arcane 8 8 3 3 4 Empowered Curse 2/day +1 Arcane 9 9 3 3 4 Aura of Despair +1 Arcane 10 10 3 3 5 Chaos Deflection 2/day +1 Arcane Hexblade Abilities: Levels in this class stack with Hexblade for determining spell casting and progression, Curse DC's, and Familiar progression. Chaos Infusion (Su): Once per day, you can spend an additional use of your hexblade curse. If target of your hexblade curse makes his save, he must roll his save again and take that result. The use of this power must be declared when you announce the target of your curse, and before the save is made. At 6th level you get an extra daily use of this ability. Wracking Curse (Su): You are able to spend two uses of your hexblade curse instead of one. If you chose to do so, the target makes a fort save instead of a will save against your curse. The use of this power must be declared when you announce the target of your curse, and before the save is made. Empower Curse (SU0: Once per day, ou are able to spend two uses of your hexblade curse instead of one. If you chose to do so, add +4 to the DC of your hexblade Curse. The use of this power must be declared when you announce the target of your curse, and before the save is made. At 8th level you get an additional daily use of this ability. Extra Curse: At 4th level and again at 7th level you get an extra daily use of your hexblade curse. Chaos Deflection (Su): Once per day, when you are the target of a targeted spell or spellike ability, you may have it hit a random target instead. This is an imediate action, and the new target must be a legal one (including the caster). If there are no other legal targets, the spell hits you as normal. You gain an additional daily use of this ability at 10th level. Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you radiate a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.
#11 overworkeddm Mar 09, 2009 19:36:08	Nice work Bonzai!! I will be posting my homebrew Hex knight class tomorrow, please log on and offer any comments or criticizms, any help at all is appreciated.
#12 overworkeddm Mar 10, 2009 13:20:24	Hey guys, This is the build that I’ve come up with, feel free to criticize, give advice, make suggestions, what have you. Also, note that this build is not a generic Hexblade build, but a specific build for a Hexblade who has studied at the Hexcidon , in Thay. Knight of the Hexcidar Hit Die: D8 Skills: 2+in modifier Class skills: same as Hexblade with Use Magic Device added Prerequisites: Hexblade curse ability, Greater Hexblades curse, Base attack bonus +7 Weapon Proficiencies: The Knight of the Hexcidar is proficient with Heavy Flails, Dire Flails, Halberds, Spiked Chains, Ranseurs, Glaives, Gyrspikes, and Mauls. Hexblade levels stack with this class for determining curse save DC’s, and familiar progression. LVL BAB Fort Ref Will Class Features Spellcasting Advancement 1 +1 +2 +0 +2 Cursespewing Weapon, Curse of Ineptitude 2 +2 +3 +0 +3 Mageslayer, Magic Resistance +1 +1 3 +3 +3 +1 +3 Aura of Misfortune 4 +4 +4 +1 +4 Improved Mettle +1 5 +5 +4 +1 +4 Mind Over Magic 1/day 6 +6 +5 +1 +5 Pierce Magical Concealment +1 7 +7 +5 +2 +5 Magic Resistance +2 8 +8 +6 +2 +6 Blank Thoughts +1 9 +9 +6 +2 +6 Magic Resistance +3 10 +10 +7 +3 +7 Mind Over Magic 2/day +1 Cursespewing Weapon- the knight can imbue any of the trained Hexcidar weapons with the cursespewing enchantment(BoVD), except that the save DC is 10+knight of the hexcidar class level+knights charisma modifier. Curse of Ineptitude- the knight gains a new curse, which if a spellcasting opponent fails it’s will saving throw (DC: 10+knight of the hexcidar class level+knights charisma modifier), bestows 1d4 negative caster levels. The Hexcidar Knight can use this curse a number of times per day equal to 3+his/her charisma modifier. Mageslayer-the knight gains the feat Mageslayer(complete mage) as a bonus feat. The knight however does not suffer from the caster level loss penalty implied by it. Magic Resistance-the knight gains a +1 bonus to his saving throws against spells and spell like abilities. This bonus increases at 7th and 9th level. Aura of Misfortune- the knight radiates an aura of bad luck in a 10 foot radius, which imposes a -2 penalty to saving throws and armor class. Improved Mettle- the knight gains the Improved Mettle feature, which functions exactly like improved evasion, except it applies to fortitude and will saving throws. Mind Over Magic-once per day when targeted by a spell or spell like ability, the knight can cause the effect to rebound on the caster, as per the spell turning spell. The knights caster level for this ability is 5+ his/her knight of the hexcidar class level. The knight gains another use of this ability at 10th level. Pierce Magical Concealment-the knight gains the feat Pierce Magical Concealment (complete mage) as a bonus feat. He does not however suffer the caster loss penalty imposed by the feat. Blank Thoughts- the knight becomes immune to all mind affecting effects.
#13 lord_karsus Mar 10, 2009 23:08:25	-Are those +1s every other level magic advancement?
#14 overworkeddm Mar 11, 2009 18:16:26	-Are those +1s every other level magic advancement? Yes they are. Sorry, the table I used in Word didn't paste well in here. Other than that what do you think?
#15 bonzai Mar 11, 2009 18:40:09	Not a bad first draft. Here are my opinions. 1st, not a big fan of curse spewing weapons, as I hate to rely on crits for activation (if I am remembering them right). But that is just a personal preference. Improved Mettle and aura of misfortune are very nice. Blank Thoughts is very powerful. Perhaps too powerful? Instead of giving them the mage slayer feat and then altering it, I would just give them a flat out ability that makes it so casting in a threatened square always provokes an AoO. Same thing with Pierce Magical Concealment. Magic Resistance is also kind of unecassary considering that you already got Arcane resistance (+Cha to saves). In regards to curse of Ineptitude. As is, if you go into this class you are sacrificing up to +5 in DC's on your standard curse, as well as times per day that you can use your curse. In exchange you get to reduce the oponents caster level as a supernatural ability. However hexblades get enervation as a spell choice. Which is beter, a normal hexblade debuffing the caster's attacks, damage, ability checks, skill checks, and saves with his curse as a free action(with a higher DC) and casting enervation, or doing 1d4 to caster level with no other debuffs? Looking at the class from that standpoint, it becomes a 4 level dip for Aura of Misfortune and Improved Mettle. I would also get the new curse, and be able to use it just as much as if I had continued on with the class (Just the saves would be lower, but my de-buffs would be higher. All I would be sacrificing would be 2 caster levels, some hp, and 2 to my normal curse dc (which aura of Misfortune would counter). My thoughts in making a PrC for a Hexblade were this. 1st, it needs to count toward your curse DC's. Second You already have some nice anti-caster stuff with Mettle and Arcane resistance, so some options for the curse seemed like a good idea to me. In particular, it would be great if it helped you get your curse to land better. Thats why wracking curse was my first pick. By making your curse a fort save, those casters are far more likely to fail it. I also liked the idea of being able to boost your save DC's. Over all though, I think your off to a great start!
#16 lord_karsus Mar 11, 2009 20:32:14	Yes they are. Sorry, the table I used in Word didn't paste well in here. Other than that what do you think? -If you use the 'CODE' and '/CODE' tags, you can copy & paste using indentations and all of that straight from Word. -Personally speaking, I don't like the fact that Hexblades get spellcasting to begin with. They get very few spells, and have a very limited selection, so I think that the spells should have just been done away with, and more curses and such developed. If the PrC is designed to combat magicians, I'd see the development of spellcasting abilities is what is "given up" in order to get benefits when facing spellcasters. Thematically, I think it'd be better to lose spellcasting in order to gain benefits to combat spellcasters. It's kind of like Psionics. There is a Psionic feat that makes you a lot more resistant to Psionics. In order to qualify for it, you can't have Psionic ability, and after you take it, you forever lose the ability to use Psionics.
#17 sfdragon Mar 12, 2009 4:24:19	there was a prc or two that had a smite mage class abilitty....
#18 overworkeddm Mar 12, 2009 13:55:15	1st, not a big fan of curse spewing weapons, as I hate to rely on crits for activation (if I am remembering them right). But that is just a personal preference. Cursespewing weapons activate every time they deal damage, so every time you deal damage with the weapon you have a chance to curse your foe. Blank Thoughts is very powerful. Perhaps too powerful? Its an ability from a 5 level class, the Occult Slayer, I assumed making it a later ability of a 10 level class made it a little less powerful. My thoughts in making a PrC for a Hexblade were this. 1st, it needs to count toward your curse DC's. Second You already have some nice anti-caster stuff with Mettle and Arcane resistance, so some options for the curse seemed like a good idea to me. In particular, it would be great if it helped you get your curse to land better. Thats why wracking curse was my first pick. By making your curse a fort save, those casters are far more likely to fail it. I also liked the idea of being able to boost your save DC's. It does say in my above post at the beginning that this class's levels count toward your curse dc's and familiar progression, so the spellcasting is the only thing that doesn't stack. I agree with you on wracking curse, and boosting dc's. Also, we use Mike Mearls suggestions for improving the hexblade in our campaigns, so hexblades can use their curse a number of times per day equal to 3+their charisma modifier, so I really didn't think number of curses was a big deal, I shoulda mentioned that in my above posts. Thanks for the suggestions, and keep them coming, I've got til next tuesday to make adjustments, so any advice is appreciated.
#19 bonzai Mar 12, 2009 14:11:08	-If you use the 'CODE' and '/CODE' tags, you can copy & paste using indentations and all of that straight from Word. -Personally speaking, I don't like the fact that Hexblades get spellcasting to begin with. They get very few spells, and have a very limited selection, so I think that the spells should have just been done away with, and more curses and such developed. If the PrC is designed to combat magicians, I'd see the development of spellcasting abilities is what is "given up" in order to get benefits when facing spellcasters. Thematically, I think it'd be better to lose spellcasting in order to gain benefits to combat spellcasters. It's kind of like Psionics. There is a Psionic feat that makes you a lot more resistant to Psionics. In order to qualify for it, you can't have Psionic ability, and after you take it, you forever lose the ability to use Psionics. Thanks for the tip LK! I've been wanting to learn how to do that for a very long time. Will it import tables too? As far as Hexblades and Spell Casting... I like their spell casting. They have a small, but extremely useful list of spells. The only real complaint I have about their casting, is that they don't get Bestow Curse as a spell choice. Oh well, I guess thats what Arcane Disciple is for (get the fate domain).
#20 lord_karsus Mar 12, 2009 15:11:14	Thanks for the tip LK! I've been wanting to learn how to do that for a very long time. Will it import tables too? -That much, I don't know. As far as Hexblades and Spell Casting... I like their spell casting. They have a small, but extremely useful list of spells. The only real complaint I have about their casting, is that they don't get Bestow Curse as a spell choice. Oh well, I guess thats what Arcane Disciple is for (get the fate domain). -I'm a fan of "alternative" spellcasting, or spellcasting-like abilities and powers systems, so that's why. If I designed the class, from the ground up, instead of spells, I would have made some kind of Curse system, a bit more like Warlock invocations, where you can choose and use different ones that do different things.
#21 bonzai Mar 12, 2009 15:59:43	Cursespewing weapons activate every time they deal damage, so every time you deal damage with the weapon you have a chance to curse your foe... Its an ability from a 5 level class, the Occult Slayer, I assumed making it a later ability of a 10 level class made it a little less powerful.... It does say in my above post at the beginning that this class's levels count toward your curse dc's and familiar progression, so the spellcasting is the only thing that doesn't stack. I agree with you on wracking curse, and boosting dc's. Also, we use Mike Mearls suggestions for improving the hexblade in our campaigns, so hexblades can use their curse a number of times per day equal to 3+their charisma modifier, so I really didn't think number of curses was a big deal, I shoulda mentioned that in my above posts. Thanks for the suggestions, and keep them coming, I've got til next tuesday to make adjustments, so any advice is appreciated. Ah, I had missed the part where it said that it improved the DC's (It was behind the weapon proficiencies, which I kind of breazed over). With those adjustments it becomes a bit stronger. Instead of bestowing negative caster levels, have you seen the Dragon Magazine feat, Curse of distraction? Curse of Distraction [Hex] (DR339 p92) Curse class ability any other Hex feat Gain a new curse. For one hour, the curse’s target must make a Concentration check in order to cast a spell. Hexblade Curse: DC = 15 + Spell Level Greater Hexblade’s Curse: DC = 20 + Spell Level Dire Hexblade’s Curse: DC = 25 + Spell Level So in a build similar to Rolands, you can charge in and do your curse and debuffs, reducing their saves to -16, and ability checks to -14. Then use a belt of battle to use your curse of distraction. They will have to make a concentration check = to 25+spell level with a -14 penalty. That means that they will need a concentration modifyer of 20+ just to cast a lvl 1 spell.
#22 overworkeddm Mar 13, 2009 13:07:50	So in a build similar to Rolands, you can charge in and do your curse and debuffs, reducing their saves to -16, and ability checks to -14. Then use a belt of battle to use your curse of distraction. They will have to make a concentration check = to 25+spell level with a -14 penalty. That means that they will need a concentration modifyer of 20+ just to cast a lvl 1 spell. I have seen Curse of Distraction, the pc in my campaign has it right now, its a great feat! That feat was actually what sparked this whole anti-caster prc debate, he saw how effective he already was against casters and was wanting to improve upon that. Roland is such a badass btw!! I think I'm gonna use him(with your permission of course:D) in this campaign for a little hexblade vs. hexblade action, should be interesting. So, with all that we have seen and discussed, what build should I go with? Should I try and cross-class mine with Bonzai's prc, or just go with one or the other with some changes? Suggestions, comments, insults?
#23 bonzai Mar 16, 2009 14:29:02	I would say for your player to go with whatever seems fun and they will enjoy role playing. (And feel free to steal Roland. I posted him so that he could be used).
#24 Diffan Mar 28, 2009 23:59:56	In addition to Bonzai's cool character Roland, I offer my Hexblade character as well, Kaden to offer any inspiration as well as an effective NPC.
#25 Diffan Jun 09, 2009 20:19:30	I was going over the ideas of doing a Hex Knight, but I wanted to make it usable for any campaign. So I made up a PrC viewed HERE for the Hex Knight. I think it would work wonderfully in Thay (espically because of the non-good alignment). As always, your thoughts and criticisms are welcome.