High Finance, macro-economics and banking - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dio1632 Oct 30, 2008 18:09:46	OK, So I'm looking through the campaign guide, and the players guide. And, surprise surprise, I can't tell at all what the state of the economy is in the Realms! It is obviously medieval, but I am expecting some reference to state if it is analagous the economy of the Carolingian period before the 11th Century (generally hard-goods exchange, with the banker's role being weighing and measuring precious metals and coins for a fee, lending money with a promise of interest, and occasional rare sales of the debt owned by one bank to another bank), to the High Middle Ages from the 11th Century to the 14th (banking in all of its modern forms, except during a period of extraordinarily low inflation) or other. Anyhow, the FR Wiki for 3rd edition http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ormpetarr has one tantalizing thing to say "Ormpetarr is a banking center." But Ormpettar is on the border of badly spell-scarred parts of the world, and the nation it once belonged to (Sespech) no longer exists. Meanwhile, the 4th edition Campaign Guide has these references: The adjective "bankrupt" is used on page 90 Reference to Ormpetarr Changing House on page 193. Reference to moneylenders on page 205 (sidebar, Keeps of Eskorn). Anybody? Anybody?
#2 lord_karsus Oct 30, 2008 20:16:57	-This thread belongs in the Realmslore section. It'll be moved.
#3 lord_karsus Oct 30, 2008 20:20:54	-If you're looking for in-depth information about this, don't expect anything (if ever) anytime soon. The current design philosophy is to release two sourcebooks, an adventure, and that's it, with the rest of the lore being told through other mediums, such as novels. -That said, however, economics in D&D worlds never made too much sense. I mean, I don't know it exactly off the top of my head, but I know there's that combination where a high level magician can create a demiplane made completely of platinum, and, subsequently, can have it mined. -The best place to pick up tidbits about the economies of the Forgotten Realms would be to: Thumb through the sourcebooks. Most have some kind of section discussing economics. Read the "So Sayth Ed" files at Candlekeep. Economics is something I know he likes, and a lot of that stuff never made it into the published books, any of them. He's gone into plenty of depth when people have asked, and I am sure questions pertaining to economics have been asked.
#4 BadCatMan Oct 30, 2008 20:36:36	Power Of Faerun had an chapter on merchants and economics and stuff. It might interest you in this area.
#5 old_sage Oct 30, 2008 21:12:19	With respect to the "status" of trade/economic structures in the Realms, heed the words of Ed:- "Regarding trade, it’s important to note that any game product covering trade in the Realms or any properly detailed fantasy setting would be a snapshot, out of date the moment it’s published, because a printed book is static, and (in daily detail if not in overall needs and flows) trade is constantly changing. Many fantasy fiction writers seize on the exciting “wheeling and dealing” of trade (the thirteen books by David and Leigh Eddings that include the character of Silk keep delving into his deceptions, swaps, arranged shortages, and so on)."
#6 old_sage Oct 30, 2008 21:20:41	Power Of Faerun had an chapter on merchants and economics and stuff. It might interest you in this area. Indeed. Read the "Play the Market" chapter of Power of Faerûn for guidance on running a mercantile campaign, and Hand of Fire for the best depiction of caravan life. Thumb through the sourcebooks. Most have some kind of section discussing economics. Beyond the map in the FRCS, regional sourcebooks have more detailed local pictures. Read the "So Sayth Ed" files at Candlekeep. Economics is something I know he likes, and a lot of that stuff never made it into the published books, any of them. He's gone into plenty of depth when people have asked, and I am sure questions pertaining to economics have been asked. Ed's notes at Candlekeep do feature several important replies on Realms economics and monetary/financial systems. See the compiled files through the link in my sig.
#7 old_sage Oct 30, 2008 21:22:54	OK, So I'm looking through the campaign guide, and the players guide. And, surprise surprise, I can't tell at all what the state of the economy is in the Realms! It is obviously medieval, but I am expecting some reference to state if it is analagous the economy of the Carolingian period before the 11th Century (generally hard-goods exchange, with the banker's role being weighing and measuring precious metals and coins for a fee, lending money with a promise of interest, and occasional rare sales of the debt owned by one bank to another bank), to the High Middle Ages from the 11th Century to the 14th (banking in all of its modern forms, except during a period of extraordinarily low inflation) or other. Anyhow, the FR Wiki for 3rd edition http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ormpetarr has one tantalizing thing to say "Ormpetarr is a banking center." But Ormpettar is on the border of badly spell-scarred parts of the world, and the nation it once belonged to (Sespech) no longer exists. Meanwhile, the 4th edition Campaign Guide has these references: The adjective "bankrupt" is used on page 90 Reference to Ormpetarr Changing House on page 193. Reference to moneylenders on page 205 (sidebar, Keeps of Eskorn). Anybody? Anybody? There are merchant companies, enterprises and trading costers, that people in the Realms use to invest their money in, as well as agents who handle the investments and manage the financial transactions. There are people who will hide and/or protect your money, for a fee of course, and there are rentable storage spaces in various cities and other locales, as well as moneylenders and money-changers. There are locales described in The Night Parade which function like "cache-houses"... existing as businesses equipped with what can only be assumed to be safe deposit boxes. Ed's noted a rather integrated "bank" and "moneychanging" system at work in Delzimmer. See his Elminster Speaks articles at WotC. As well, Waukeenar do, in fact, tend to run some of their temples as "moneylending" locales... within large cities across the Realms.
#8 lord_karsus Nov 01, 2008 11:48:08	-While on the topic of novels...There is nothing that particularly rings a bell in that it sounds too relevant, here. Economics are really one of those things that take place off-stage, in both novels and sourcebooks. In the latter, though, there should be more information.
#9 dio1632 Nov 01, 2008 12:08:22	Thanks all, for your assistance! All of these references (particularly Power of Faerun) have been helpful and interesting.
#10 BadCatMan Nov 01, 2008 19:02:29	Information of this kind will be scattered around the various regional sourcebooks, mostly. Ravens Bluff had a bank, where the vaults were protected by a dragon, who considered the money his personal hoard. Withdrawals were tricky to say the least.
#11 yakman Nov 30, 2008 13:06:30	These "banks" aren't really banks in any sense of the word--from my understanding. they are more vaults--you put your money in and pay a fee for its protection. i very much doubt that these institutions are paying interest in order to loan the money. banks aren't as cool as leg-breaking thayan loan-sharks charging usurious rates of interest, and sacrificing defaulters to Mammon, and shouldn't be included in fantasy settings if only for that.
#12 dio1632 Dec 02, 2008 15:21:18	banks aren't as cool as leg-breaking thayan loan-sharks charging usurious rates of interest, and sacrificing defaulters to Mammon, and shouldn't be included in fantasy settings if only for that. Couldn't disagree more! Even if I agreed with the premise of your statement -- that finance is not cool and fascinating -- I would definitely have to disagree with the conclusion. Why I disagree with the premise of your statement: 1: Loans and capital are the source of adventure for the everyday person! If I have an idea for a business, I need to spend money to make money. So what do I do when I am labor-wealthy and money-poor? I borrow money from a bank -- risking my future earning power on speculation! 2: The methods of securing and moving liquid assets and representatives thereof, have been the source of romantic drama for generation! Stagecoach robberies, the Three Musketeers, and the story from Genesis of Jacob and Rachel running off in the night. 3: Inflation, deflation, employment, unemployment, availability of financing, etcetera, are the things at stake which makes Empires fall and rise! The best reason to take arms against a King, is when the economy is too static and does not allow mobility. The only reason why many support revolutions is from promises, IOUs, loand, bank notes, and securities from the rival government, to be paid off when and if it takes power (read especially early North American history for these tales).
#13 Therise Dec 02, 2008 16:39:57	These "banks" aren't really banks in any sense of the word--from my understanding. they are more vaults--you put your money in and pay a fee for its protection. i very much doubt that these institutions are paying interest in order to loan the money. Many modern bank accounts are non-interest bearing. And we pay insurance to protect bank failures, on the governmental level. banks aren't as cool as leg-breaking thayan loan-sharks charging usurious rates of interest, and sacrificing defaulters to Mammon, and shouldn't be included in fantasy settings if only for that. Well, okay... but without trade guilds and costers, you wouldn't have anything left of civilization except for tiny dots of farmsteads. And all the farmers would starve out, unless they knew subsistence hunting. One of the constants of the Realms is that trade is involved in pretty much everything, just like in real life.
#14 faraer Dec 02, 2008 16:57:20	One of the constants of the Realms is that trade is involved in pretty much everything, just like in real life. And getting more so, which is one of the major themes of the Old Grey Box that TSR pretty much ignored. Similarly, local trade cabals are much more prominent in the average adventurer's life than the three or four big power groups that caught the lion's share of exposure in the books. Here's an important web article in that regard.
#15 Therise Dec 02, 2008 17:06:07	And getting more so, which is one of the major themes of the Old Grey Box that TSR pretty much ignored. Similarly, local trade cabals are much more prominent in the average adventurer's life than the three or four big power groups that caught the lion's share of exposure in the books. Here's an important web article in that regard. That's why I love Ed of the Green Wood and want to give him a big hug. :D
#16 RUMPLESTIX Dec 02, 2008 17:30:28	Just thought I would add a tidbit of information. Have you ever read Salt? (Mike Kurlansky?) It tells how an enormous amount of trade historically arose from the salt trade. In Power of Faerun (I think...) it was mentioned that salt had little importance in the FR compared to our world because of the prevalence of magical means for preserving food. With the spellplague it only stands to reason that salt may have become a powerful and important commodity/trade good. Preserving food is important. Simply guarding caravan after caravan can be a steady means of income on the side for adventurers. Also, since merchants will always have large caravans transpoting salt, it makes it both cheaper and safer for other goods to be transported. They can hide shipments of silk and art in with a dozen wagons of salt. It makes a neat little plot hook to start an adventure. But as I was saying, the change from overly abundant magic to that where people are very distrustful should change 4th ed. into a more 'normal' currency setting. Just have a lot of big shipments of the following: salt, rice, olives (including olive oil, it was a backbone of the Roman economy...), corn, and wheat. Areas that are major producers/traders would have crude banking practices: certificates representing the value of bulk transfers of commodities. It is much easier to pack a paper bill than a ton of wheat... I would say the following: Suzail, Athlkatla, Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, and Teflamm to name a few. Those locations are also probably rich enough to have various vaults backing some trade bills just in case of drought, blight, and lost shipments. I believe, without doing much study, that a lot of modern banking may have developed from such things. I hope I came up with something useful.
#17 Therise Dec 02, 2008 18:38:10	...With the spellplague it only stands to reason that salt may have become a powerful and important commodity/trade good. Preserving food is important. Simply guarding caravan after caravan can be a steady means of income on the side for adventurers. ... That's a great point, Rumplestix. Imagine the devastation of trade immediately following the spellplague, the loss of magic during that dark age as people re-learned how to use magic in a different way. Some trading families would have arisen specifically based on these types of needs and could have made a ton of money. Even more, imagine the pressure on rising magecraft from wealthy trading costers dependent on a new, exploitable source of income - some might have had mage-hunters, to kill off people who rediscovered some of the older magical techniques. That's a perfect way to make a greedy noble family who are "nouveau riche" and perhaps enemies of the PCs. Of course, this would tend to revert as more and more mages re-learned magic in the new way, but what a great theme for a wealthy family that rose to power during the post-spellplague years! Or one could even adventure during that period, where being a mage adventuring on the road was even more dangerous for this reason.
#18 yakman Dec 02, 2008 19:04:08	Couldn't disagree more! Even if I agreed with the premise of your statement -- that finance is not cool and fascinating -- I would definitely have to disagree with the conclusion. Why I disagree with the premise of your statement: 1: Loans and capital are the source of adventure for the everyday person! If I have an idea for a business, I need to spend money to make money. So what do I do when I am labor-wealthy and money-poor? I borrow money from a bank -- risking my future earning power on speculation! 2: The methods of securing and moving liquid assets and representatives thereof, have been the source of romantic drama for generation! Stagecoach robberies, the Three Musketeers, and the story from Genesis of Jacob and Rachel running off in the night. 3: Inflation, deflation, employment, unemployment, availability of financing, etcetera, are the things at stake which makes Empires fall and rise! The best reason to take arms against a King, is when the economy is too static and does not allow mobility. The only reason why many support revolutions is from promises, IOUs, loand, bank notes, and securities from the rival government, to be paid off when and if it takes power (read especially early North American history for these tales).
#19 yakman Dec 02, 2008 19:20:27	Well, okay... but without trade guilds and costers, you wouldn't have anything left of civilization except for tiny dots of farmsteads. And all the farmers would starve out, unless they knew subsistence hunting. One of the constants of the Realms is that trade is involved in pretty much everything, just like in real life. Civilization existed before banks. So did trade. Remember, the bulk of the Realms IS tiny farmsteads. It's people who work the land. There are cities, and a thriving economy, but I would imagine that trade has to be very lucrative or it isn't done. Not to get too much into it, because it is a game, but RISK is much greater in the Realms than in the RW. The Realms have all the dangers that the RW has, plus Beholders, Orcs, the Cult of the Dragon, extra-planar incursions, Kuo-Toa, the risen dead, psychotic wizards, Giants... basically everything bad that can happen could happen in the Realms. As such, when sending a caravan across the Realms, you would have to imagine that the RETURN on that caravan would be high enough to balance out the RISK that everyone and everything in it will be devoured by Hoondarrh, "The Red Rage of Mintarn." A merchant would want his money, he would want it now, and no, he's not taking an IOU. He wants a stack of gold coins--not some piece of paper saying that there's such and such amount of silver in the Temple of Tymora in Baldur's Gate. Basically what I'm saying is that it's unlikely that when thieves can "Climb Sheer Surfaces" or jump between shadows, or walk through walls, that anybody would trust anyone else with their money. And if they did trust someone with it, it would be to pay them put it in a vault and guard it with Iron Golems, plane-shifting magic, and ill-tempered blink dogs. That's not a banking system--it's a vault. Nobody shows up asking for a line of credit and a friendly banker gives him some of this money in exchange for an IOU. In fact, if anyone does show up to this vault, they had either be a potential customer or they are going in the Dead Book right quick.
#20 lord_karsus Dec 02, 2008 20:59:41	-Bah, who needs a bank when you can create demiplanes made of platinum, and mine them!?
#21 Therise Dec 02, 2008 21:53:20	Civilization existed before banks. So did trade. Yes, and... I agree... so... ? Remember, the bulk of the Realms IS tiny farmsteads. It's people who work the land. There are cities, and a thriving economy, but I would imagine that trade has to be very lucrative or it isn't done. My point is that trading costers of the Realms don't just trade money for goods, but also goods for goods (barter). Eliminate all trade, including barter (which is by far the majority, but not entirely), and the Realms as we know them would dramatically change and essentially go backwards in terms of progress. Ultimately, you have to have not only warehouses for storage, but if you do larger scale trade (involving massive quantities of goods, precious metals, and the like) which is required for large cities, then you'll eventually need banks. Tiny farmsteads alone aren't typically 100% self-sufficient. Bottom line, they require trade for survival, because they're usually specialized to grow or ranch a few select products. Without trade, they'd die out -or- change to a more self-sufficient mode of life - which would be dramatically different than the villages we see dotting the map, with all their specialized tradesmen. Not to get too much into it, because it is a game, but RISK is much greater in the Realms than in the RW. The Realms have all the dangers that the RW has, plus Beholders, Orcs, the Cult of the Dragon, extra-planar incursions, Kuo-Toa, the risen dead, psychotic wizards, Giants... basically everything bad that can happen could happen in the Realms. So you'd hire specialized guards. That could be your PCs, and an adventure right there. Or it could be trained, high level NPCs. Trade wouldn't simply stop, as merchants would find a way of making profit. I don't see the problem with this. As such, when sending a caravan across the Realms, you would have to imagine that the RETURN on that caravan would be high enough to balance out the RISK that everyone and everything in it will be devoured by Hoondarrh, "The Red Rage of Mintarn." A merchant would want his money, he would want it now, and no, he's not taking an IOU. He wants a stack of gold coins--not some piece of paper saying that there's such and such amount of silver in the Temple of Tymora in Baldur's Gate. Why would he want a stack of gold coins when he could get a certified bank "check" or promissory note? Large bags of gold are silly and dangerous. The latter is safer, lighter, and improves his chances of large, positive cash inflow. Think on a larger scale than one merchant selling his small stack of wares. Larger trade makes for a noble class... and this happens in Sembia and other Faerunian nations already. Basically what I'm saying is that it's unlikely that when thieves can "Climb Sheer Surfaces" or jump between shadows, or walk through walls, that anybody would trust anyone else with their money. And if they did trust someone with it, it would be to pay them put it in a vault and guard it with Iron Golems, plane-shifting magic, and ill-tempered blink dogs. Who is to say that genuine banks wouldn't provide insurance, in the form of retribution and retrieval in instances of robbery or chicanery. There's another adventure right there, with powerful NPC enemies and a good amount of magic involved - loads of fun! That's not a banking system--it's a vault. Nobody shows up asking for a line of credit and a friendly banker gives him some of this money in exchange for an IOU. In fact, if anyone does show up to this vault, they had either be a potential customer or they are going in the Dead Book right quick. Technically, no one would get a loan or line of credit without a lien or some other form of collateral. PCs might get a loan for funding an adventure -if- the PC put up a valuable magic item as collateral. Or for an NPC, large loans could require collateral in the form of percentage cuts of the enterprise being undertaken... or the noble's villa. There are a thousand ways to make banks, and large scale trade believable in the Realms. These things happened in medieval and renaissance times, and they're expressly stated as happening in the Realms. It's a given, and it's a great source of ideas for adventures! Banking and trade are only boring and mundane if you make them so.
#22 Stigger Dec 03, 2008 1:11:02	Hmmm... Therise said most of the stuff I would have, so... yeah. What she said.
#23 yakman Dec 03, 2008 1:17:23	My point is that trading costers of the Realms don't just trade money for goods, but also goods for goods (barter). Eliminate all trade, including barter (which is by far the majority, but not entirely), and the Realms as we know them would dramatically change and essentially go backwards in terms of progress. Ultimately, you have to have not only warehouses for storage, but if you do larger scale trade (involving massive quantities of goods, precious metals, and the like) which is required for large cities, then you'll eventually need banks. The Roman Empire had no banks. It did okay for itself in terms of trade. ;) Tiny farmsteads alone aren't typically 100% self-sufficient. Bottom line, they require trade for survival, because they're usually specialized to grow or ranch a few select products. Without trade, they'd die out -or- change to a more self-sufficient mode of life - which would be dramatically different than the villages we see dotting the map, with all their specialized tradesmen. I'm not talking about eliminating trade. Only a system of financing that doesn't fit any of the published material in the setting. All the Realms material that I know of talks about stacks of gold coins, merchants watching their purses, etc.. It's not a world where there is insurance, readily available financing, and trust in a banking system. It's much more of a get in, get out, make that money, find some type of monster to watch it, sort of world. Why would he want a stack of gold coins when he could get a certified bank "check" or promissory note? Large bags of gold are silly and dangerous. The latter is safer, lighter, and improves his chances of large, positive cash inflow. Think on a larger scale than one merchant selling his small stack of wares. Larger trade makes for a noble class... and this happens in Sembia and other Faerunian nations already. Who would you trust to take care of the gold? Who issues these certificates? Would a merchant from Mintarn accept or trust the paper of a Calishite which states that there is gold in some vault in Teflamm? I think not. In Eberron such a system is possible, where the Dragonmarked Houses have the necessary infrastructure and abilities to make it work. The same is not true for the Realms. Technically, no one would get a loan or line of credit without a lien or some other form of collateral. PCs might get a loan for funding an adventure -if- the PC put up a valuable magic item as collateral. Or for an NPC, large loans could require collateral in the form of percentage cuts of the enterprise being undertaken... or the noble's villa. There are a thousand ways to make banks, and large scale trade believable in the Realms. These things happened in medieval and renaissance times, and they're expressly stated as happening in the Realms. It's a given, and it's a great source of ideas for adventures! Banking and trade are only boring and mundane if you make them so. Again, no one is saying that such things are boring. I'm simply saying that they are LESS INTERESTING than leg breakers, loan sharks, and miserly were-rat Mammon cultists wanting their money doubled in two weeks. The adventures behind making that monthly adjustable rate mortgage on your new estate just can't compete with being on the run from lycanthropic debt collectors WHO WILL EAT YOUR FAMILY.
#24 Therise Dec 03, 2008 2:21:44	The Roman Empire had no banks. It did okay for itself in terms of trade. ;) The mensarii were essentially public bankers appointed by the state. Romans also had negotiatores, mercatores, and argentarii. I'm not talking about eliminating trade. Only a system of financing that doesn't fit any of the published material in the setting. All the Realms material that I know of talks about stacks of gold coins, merchants watching their purses, etc.. It's not a world where there is insurance, readily available financing, and trust in a banking system. It's much more of a get in, get out, make that money, find some type of monster to watch it, sort of world. Ah, you must be playing 4E. ;) Again, no one is saying that such things are boring. I'm simply saying that they are LESS INTERESTING than leg breakers, loan sharks, and miserly were-rat Mammon cultists wanting their money doubled in two weeks. The adventures behind making that monthly adjustable rate mortgage on your new estate just can't compete with being on the run from lycanthropic debt collectors WHO WILL EAT YOUR FAMILY. Okay, well... you're more than welcome to ignore, downplay, or remove financial systems that have been in the Realms for decades. It's your Realms, after all. I'm just saying, it's there and you can use it for adventures if you want.
#25 Stigger Dec 03, 2008 5:11:07	I'd say the church of Waukeen was probably viewed as being at least somewhat trustworthy by merchant types... and its not stacks of gold coins, generally they seem to prefer using more portable forms of currency, like gemstones and tradebars. As to the idea of adjustable rate mortgages... I don't get the impression anyone is talking about modern banking systems as we know them today, more like the Fuggers of the world... or Mirt the Moneylender back in the day... hells, you could even call the Roundshield system something of a proto stock market really.
#26 dio1632 Dec 03, 2008 14:41:49	Yes, yes, an excellent work! Curiously, I was thinking about exactly this, when putting together my character -- whose father had made his money from the Spice trade before the spellplague. Just thought I would add a tidbit of information. Have you ever read Salt? (Mike Kurlansky?) It tells how an enormous amount of trade historically arose from the salt trade. In Power of Faerun (I think...) it was mentioned that salt had little importance in the FR compared to our world because of the prevalence of magical means for preserving food. With the spellplague it only stands to reason that salt may have become a powerful and important commodity/trade good. Preserving food is important. Simply guarding caravan after caravan can be a steady means of income on the side for adventurers. Also, since merchants will always have large caravans transpoting salt, it makes it both cheaper and safer for other goods to be transported. They can hide shipments of silk and art in with a dozen wagons of salt. It makes a neat little plot hook to start an adventure. But as I was saying, the change from overly abundant magic to that where people are very distrustful should change 4th ed. into a more 'normal' currency setting. Just have a lot of big shipments of the following: salt, rice, olives (including olive oil, it was a backbone of the Roman economy...), corn, and wheat. Areas that are major producers/traders would have crude banking practices: certificates representing the value of bulk transfers of commodities. It is much easier to pack a paper bill than a ton of wheat... I would say the following: Suzail, Athlkatla, Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, and Teflamm to name a few. Those locations are also probably rich enough to have various vaults backing some trade bills just in case of drought, blight, and lost shipments. I believe, without doing much study, that a lot of modern banking may have developed from such things. I hope I came up with something useful.
#27 dio1632 Dec 03, 2008 14:51:04	The Roman Empire had no banks. It did okay for itself in terms of trade. It had no banks? Maybe not under that name. But individuals put their names and estates on the line for quick services, goods, and liquid assets all the time! The roads and aqueducts were financed with "bond issues" by arranging for people with a stake in the construction to contribute towards its completion. This is all finance. Remember that wealth is more than currency! Everything is wealth, in proportion to its liquidity! The 20-year-old with 500 dollars is much richer than fifty-year-old citizen with 5000 -- the first can probably average 25-30 more years of productive labor than the second!
#28 derren_s. Dec 03, 2008 14:57:30	Who would you trust to take care of the gold? Who issues these certificates? Would a merchant from Mintarn accept or trust the paper of a Calishite which states that there is gold in some vault in Teflamm? I think not. It worked in the real world, so why wouldn't it in the realms? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking The church of Waukeen would be the primary address for banking in the realms.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

dio1632

Oct 30, 2008 18:09:46

OK,

So I'm looking through the campaign guide, and the players guide. And, surprise surprise, I can't tell at all what the state of the economy is in the Realms! It is obviously medieval, but I am expecting some reference to state if it is analagous the economy of the Carolingian period before the 11th Century (generally hard-goods exchange, with the banker's role being weighing and measuring precious metals and coins for a fee, lending money with a promise of interest, and occasional rare sales of the debt owned by one bank to another bank), to the High Middle Ages from the 11th Century to the 14th (banking in all of its modern forms, except during a period of extraordinarily low inflation) or other.

Anyhow, the FR Wiki for 3rd edition http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ormpetarr has one tantalizing thing to say "Ormpetarr is a banking center." But Ormpettar is on the border of badly spell-scarred parts of the world, and the nation it once belonged to (Sespech) no longer exists.

Meanwhile, the 4th edition Campaign Guide has these references:
The adjective "bankrupt" is used on page 90
Reference to Ormpetarr Changing House on page 193.
Reference to moneylenders on page 205 (sidebar, Keeps of Eskorn).

Anybody? Anybody?

lord_karsus

Oct 30, 2008 20:16:57

-This thread belongs in the Realmslore section. It'll be moved.

lord_karsus

Oct 30, 2008 20:20:54

-If you're looking for in-depth information about this, don't expect anything (if ever) anytime soon. The current design philosophy is to release two sourcebooks, an adventure, and that's it, with the rest of the lore being told through other mediums, such as novels.

-That said, however, economics in D&D worlds never made too much sense. I mean, I don't know it exactly off the top of my head, but I know there's that combination where a high level magician can create a demiplane made completely of platinum, and, subsequently, can have it mined.

-The best place to pick up tidbits about the economies of the Forgotten Realms would be to:

Thumb through the sourcebooks. Most have some kind of section discussing economics.
Read the "So Sayth Ed" files at Candlekeep. Economics is something I know he likes, and a lot of that stuff never made it into the published books, any of them. He's gone into plenty of depth when people have asked, and I am sure questions pertaining to economics have been asked.

BadCatMan

Oct 30, 2008 20:36:36

Power Of Faerun had an chapter on merchants and economics and stuff. It might interest you in this area.

old_sage

Oct 30, 2008 21:12:19

With respect to the "status" of trade/economic structures in the Realms, heed the words of Ed:-

"Regarding trade, it’s important to note that any game product covering trade in the Realms or any properly detailed fantasy setting would be a snapshot, out of date the moment it’s published, because a printed book is static, and (in daily detail if not in overall needs and flows) trade is constantly changing. Many fantasy fiction writers seize on the exciting “wheeling and dealing” of trade (the thirteen books by David and Leigh Eddings that include the character of Silk keep delving into his deceptions, swaps, arranged shortages, and so on)."

old_sage

Oct 30, 2008 21:20:41

Power Of Faerun had an chapter on merchants and economics and stuff. It might interest you in this area.

Indeed. Read the "Play the Market" chapter of Power of Faerûn for guidance on running a mercantile campaign, and Hand of Fire for the best depiction of caravan life.

Thumb through the sourcebooks. Most have some kind of section discussing economics.

Beyond the map in the FRCS, regional sourcebooks have more detailed local pictures.

Read the "So Sayth Ed" files at Candlekeep. Economics is something I know he likes, and a lot of that stuff never made it into the published books, any of them. He's gone into plenty of depth when people have asked, and I am sure questions pertaining to economics have been asked.

Ed's notes at Candlekeep do feature several important replies on Realms economics and monetary/financial systems. See the compiled files through the link in my sig.

old_sage

Oct 30, 2008 21:22:54

OK,

So I'm looking through the campaign guide, and the players guide. And, surprise surprise, I can't tell at all what the state of the economy is in the Realms! It is obviously medieval, but I am expecting some reference to state if it is analagous the economy of the Carolingian period before the 11th Century (generally hard-goods exchange, with the banker's role being weighing and measuring precious metals and coins for a fee, lending money with a promise of interest, and occasional rare sales of the debt owned by one bank to another bank), to the High Middle Ages from the 11th Century to the 14th (banking in all of its modern forms, except during a period of extraordinarily low inflation) or other.

Anyhow, the FR Wiki for 3rd edition http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ormpetarr has one tantalizing thing to say "Ormpetarr is a banking center." But Ormpettar is on the border of badly spell-scarred parts of the world, and the nation it once belonged to (Sespech) no longer exists.

Meanwhile, the 4th edition Campaign Guide has these references:
The adjective "bankrupt" is used on page 90
Reference to Ormpetarr Changing House on page 193.
Reference to moneylenders on page 205 (sidebar, Keeps of Eskorn).

Anybody? Anybody?

There are merchant companies, enterprises and trading costers, that people in the Realms use to invest their money in, as well as agents who handle the investments and manage the financial transactions. There are people who will hide and/or protect your money, for a fee of course, and there are rentable storage spaces in various cities and other locales, as well as moneylenders and money-changers.

There are locales described in The Night Parade which function like "cache-houses"... existing as businesses equipped with what can only be assumed to be safe deposit boxes.

Ed's noted a rather integrated "bank" and "moneychanging" system at work in Delzimmer. See his Elminster Speaks articles at WotC.

As well, Waukeenar do, in fact, tend to run some of their temples as "moneylending" locales... within large cities across the Realms.

lord_karsus

Nov 01, 2008 11:48:08

-While on the topic of novels...There is nothing that particularly rings a bell in that it sounds too relevant, here. Economics are really one of those things that take place off-stage, in both novels and sourcebooks. In the latter, though, there should be more information.

dio1632

Nov 01, 2008 12:08:22

Thanks all, for your assistance! All of these references (particularly Power of Faerun) have been helpful and interesting.

#10

BadCatMan

Nov 01, 2008 19:02:29

Information of this kind will be scattered around the various regional sourcebooks, mostly.

Ravens Bluff had a bank, where the vaults were protected by a dragon, who considered the money his personal hoard. Withdrawals were tricky to say the least.

#11

yakman

Nov 30, 2008 13:06:30

These "banks" aren't really banks in any sense of the word--from my understanding. they are more vaults--you put your money in and pay a fee for its protection. i very much doubt that these institutions are paying interest in order to loan the money.

banks aren't as cool as leg-breaking thayan loan-sharks charging usurious rates of interest, and sacrificing defaulters to Mammon, and shouldn't be included in fantasy settings if only for that.

#12

dio1632

Dec 02, 2008 15:21:18

banks aren't as cool as leg-breaking thayan loan-sharks charging usurious rates of interest, and sacrificing defaulters to Mammon, and shouldn't be included in fantasy settings if only for that.

Couldn't disagree more!

Even if I agreed with the premise of your statement -- that finance is not cool and fascinating -- I would definitely have to disagree with the conclusion.

Why I disagree with the premise of your statement:

1: Loans and capital are the source of adventure for the everyday person! If I have an idea for a business, I need to spend money to make money. So what do I do when I am labor-wealthy and money-poor? I borrow money from a bank -- risking my future earning power on speculation!

2: The methods of securing and moving liquid assets and representatives thereof, have been the source of romantic drama for generation! Stagecoach robberies, the Three Musketeers, and the story from Genesis of Jacob and Rachel running off in the night.

3: Inflation, deflation, employment, unemployment, availability of financing, etcetera, are the things at stake which makes Empires fall and rise! The best reason to take arms against a King, is when the economy is too static and does not allow mobility. The only reason why many support revolutions is from promises, IOUs, loand, bank notes, and securities from the rival government, to be paid off when and if it takes power (read especially early North American history for these tales).

#13

Therise

Dec 02, 2008 16:39:57

These "banks" aren't really banks in any sense of the word--from my understanding. they are more vaults--you put your money in and pay a fee for its protection. i very much doubt that these institutions are paying interest in order to loan the money.

Many modern bank accounts are non-interest bearing. And we pay insurance to protect bank failures, on the governmental level.

banks aren't as cool as leg-breaking thayan loan-sharks charging usurious rates of interest, and sacrificing defaulters to Mammon, and shouldn't be included in fantasy settings if only for that.

Well, okay... but without trade guilds and costers, you wouldn't have anything left of civilization except for tiny dots of farmsteads. And all the farmers would starve out, unless they knew subsistence hunting. One of the constants of the Realms is that trade is involved in pretty much everything, just like in real life.

#14

faraer

Dec 02, 2008 16:57:20

One of the constants of the Realms is that trade is involved in pretty much everything, just like in real life.

And getting more so, which is one of the major themes of the Old Grey Box that TSR pretty much ignored. Similarly, local trade cabals are much more prominent in the average adventurer's life than the three or four big power groups that caught the lion's share of exposure in the books. Here's an important web article in that regard.

#15

Therise

Dec 02, 2008 17:06:07

And getting more so, which is one of the major themes of the Old Grey Box that TSR pretty much ignored. Similarly, local trade cabals are much more prominent in the average adventurer's life than the three or four big power groups that caught the lion's share of exposure in the books. Here's an important web article in that regard.

That's why I love Ed of the Green Wood and want to give him a big hug. :D

#16

RUMPLESTIX

Dec 02, 2008 17:30:28

Just thought I would add a tidbit of information. Have you ever read Salt? (Mike Kurlansky?) It tells how an enormous amount of trade historically arose from the salt trade. In Power of Faerun (I think...) it was mentioned that salt had little importance in the FR compared to our world because of the prevalence of magical means for preserving food.

With the spellplague it only stands to reason that salt may have become a powerful and important commodity/trade good. Preserving food is important. Simply guarding caravan after caravan can be a steady means of income on the side for adventurers.

Also, since merchants will always have large caravans transpoting salt, it makes it both cheaper and safer for other goods to be transported. They can hide shipments of silk and art in with a dozen wagons of salt. It makes a neat little plot hook to start an adventure.

But as I was saying, the change from overly abundant magic to that where people are very distrustful should change 4th ed. into a more 'normal' currency setting. Just have a lot of big shipments of the following: salt, rice, olives (including olive oil, it was a backbone of the Roman economy...), corn, and wheat. Areas that are major producers/traders would have crude banking practices: certificates representing the value of bulk transfers of commodities. It is much easier to pack a paper bill than a ton of wheat... I would say the following: Suzail, Athlkatla, Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, and Teflamm to name a few. Those locations are also probably rich enough to have various vaults backing some trade bills just in case of drought, blight, and lost shipments. I believe, without doing much study, that a lot of modern banking may have developed from such things.

I hope I came up with something useful.

#17

Therise

Dec 02, 2008 18:38:10

...With the spellplague it only stands to reason that salt may have become a powerful and important commodity/trade good. Preserving food is important. Simply guarding caravan after caravan can be a steady means of income on the side for adventurers. ...

That's a great point, Rumplestix. Imagine the devastation of trade immediately following the spellplague, the loss of magic during that dark age as people re-learned how to use magic in a different way. Some trading families would have arisen specifically based on these types of needs and could have made a ton of money. Even more, imagine the pressure on rising magecraft from wealthy trading costers dependent on a new, exploitable source of income - some might have had mage-hunters, to kill off people who rediscovered some of the older magical techniques. That's a perfect way to make a greedy noble family who are "nouveau riche" and perhaps enemies of the PCs.

Of course, this would tend to revert as more and more mages re-learned magic in the new way, but what a great theme for a wealthy family that rose to power during the post-spellplague years! Or one could even adventure during that period, where being a mage adventuring on the road was even more dangerous for this reason.

#18

yakman

Dec 02, 2008 19:04:08

Couldn't disagree more!

Even if I agreed with the premise of your statement -- that finance is not cool and fascinating -- I would definitely have to disagree with the conclusion.

Why I disagree with the premise of your statement:

1: Loans and capital are the source of adventure for the everyday person! If I have an idea for a business, I need to spend money to make money. So what do I do when I am labor-wealthy and money-poor? I borrow money from a bank -- risking my future earning power on speculation!

2: The methods of securing and moving liquid assets and representatives thereof, have been the source of romantic drama for generation! Stagecoach robberies, the Three Musketeers, and the story from Genesis of Jacob and Rachel running off in the night.

3: Inflation, deflation, employment, unemployment, availability of financing, etcetera, are the things at stake which makes Empires fall and rise! The best reason to take arms against a King, is when the economy is too static and does not allow mobility. The only reason why many support revolutions is from promises, IOUs, loand, bank notes, and securities from the rival government, to be paid off when and if it takes power (read especially early North American history for these tales).

#19

yakman

Dec 02, 2008 19:20:27

Well, okay... but without trade guilds and costers, you wouldn't have anything left of civilization except for tiny dots of farmsteads. And all the farmers would starve out, unless they knew subsistence hunting. One of the constants of the Realms is that trade is involved in pretty much everything, just like in real life.

Civilization existed before banks. So did trade.

Remember, the bulk of the Realms IS tiny farmsteads. It's people who work the land. There are cities, and a thriving economy, but I would imagine that trade has to be very lucrative or it isn't done.

Not to get too much into it, because it is a game, but RISK is much greater in the Realms than in the RW. The Realms have all the dangers that the RW has, plus Beholders, Orcs, the Cult of the Dragon, extra-planar incursions, Kuo-Toa, the risen dead, psychotic wizards, Giants... basically everything bad that can happen could happen in the Realms.

As such, when sending a caravan across the Realms, you would have to imagine that the RETURN on that caravan would be high enough to balance out the RISK that everyone and everything in it will be devoured by Hoondarrh, "The Red Rage of Mintarn." A merchant would want his money, he would want it now, and no, he's not taking an IOU. He wants a stack of gold coins--not some piece of paper saying that there's such and such amount of silver in the Temple of Tymora in Baldur's Gate.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's unlikely that when thieves can "Climb Sheer Surfaces" or jump between shadows, or walk through walls, that anybody would trust anyone else with their money. And if they did trust someone with it, it would be to pay them put it in a vault and guard it with Iron Golems, plane-shifting magic, and ill-tempered blink dogs.

That's not a banking system--it's a vault. Nobody shows up asking for a line of credit and a friendly banker gives him some of this money in exchange for an IOU. In fact, if anyone does show up to this vault, they had either be a potential customer or they are going in the Dead Book right quick.

#20

lord_karsus

Dec 02, 2008 20:59:41

-Bah, who needs a bank when you can create demiplanes made of platinum, and mine them!?

#21

Therise

Dec 02, 2008 21:53:20

Civilization existed before banks. So did trade.

Yes, and... I agree... so... ?

Remember, the bulk of the Realms IS tiny farmsteads. It's people who work the land. There are cities, and a thriving economy, but I would imagine that trade has to be very lucrative or it isn't done.

My point is that trading costers of the Realms don't just trade money for goods, but also goods for goods (barter). Eliminate all trade, including barter (which is by far the majority, but not entirely), and the Realms as we know them would dramatically change and essentially go backwards in terms of progress. Ultimately, you have to have not only warehouses for storage, but if you do larger scale trade (involving massive quantities of goods, precious metals, and the like) which is required for large cities, then you'll eventually need banks.

Tiny farmsteads alone aren't typically 100% self-sufficient. Bottom line, they require trade for survival, because they're usually specialized to grow or ranch a few select products. Without trade, they'd die out -or- change to a more self-sufficient mode of life - which would be dramatically different than the villages we see dotting the map, with all their specialized tradesmen.

Not to get too much into it, because it is a game, but RISK is much greater in the Realms than in the RW. The Realms have all the dangers that the RW has, plus Beholders, Orcs, the Cult of the Dragon, extra-planar incursions, Kuo-Toa, the risen dead, psychotic wizards, Giants... basically everything bad that can happen could happen in the Realms.

So you'd hire specialized guards. That could be your PCs, and an adventure right there. Or it could be trained, high level NPCs. Trade wouldn't simply stop, as merchants would find a way of making profit. I don't see the problem with this.

As such, when sending a caravan across the Realms, you would have to imagine that the RETURN on that caravan would be high enough to balance out the RISK that everyone and everything in it will be devoured by Hoondarrh, "The Red Rage of Mintarn." A merchant would want his money, he would want it now, and no, he's not taking an IOU. He wants a stack of gold coins--not some piece of paper saying that there's such and such amount of silver in the Temple of Tymora in Baldur's Gate.

Why would he want a stack of gold coins when he could get a certified bank "check" or promissory note? Large bags of gold are silly and dangerous. The latter is safer, lighter, and improves his chances of large, positive cash inflow. Think on a larger scale than one merchant selling his small stack of wares. Larger trade makes for a noble class... and this happens in Sembia and other Faerunian nations already.

Basically what I'm saying is that it's unlikely that when thieves can "Climb Sheer Surfaces" or jump between shadows, or walk through walls, that anybody would trust anyone else with their money. And if they did trust someone with it, it would be to pay them put it in a vault and guard it with Iron Golems, plane-shifting magic, and ill-tempered blink dogs.

Who is to say that genuine banks wouldn't provide insurance, in the form of retribution and retrieval in instances of robbery or chicanery.

There's another adventure right there, with powerful NPC enemies and a good amount of magic involved - loads of fun!

That's not a banking system--it's a vault. Nobody shows up asking for a line of credit and a friendly banker gives him some of this money in exchange for an IOU. In fact, if anyone does show up to this vault, they had either be a potential customer or they are going in the Dead Book right quick.

Technically, no one would get a loan or line of credit without a lien or some other form of collateral. PCs might get a loan for funding an adventure -if- the PC put up a valuable magic item as collateral. Or for an NPC, large loans could require collateral in the form of percentage cuts of the enterprise being undertaken... or the noble's villa.

There are a thousand ways to make banks, and large scale trade believable in the Realms. These things happened in medieval and renaissance times, and they're expressly stated as happening in the Realms. It's a given, and it's a great source of ideas for adventures! Banking and trade are only boring and mundane if you make them so.

#22

Stigger

Dec 03, 2008 1:11:02

Hmmm... Therise said most of the stuff I would have, so... yeah. What she said.

#23

yakman

Dec 03, 2008 1:17:23

My point is that trading costers of the Realms don't just trade money for goods, but also goods for goods (barter). Eliminate all trade, including barter (which is by far the majority, but not entirely), and the Realms as we know them would dramatically change and essentially go backwards in terms of progress. Ultimately, you have to have not only warehouses for storage, but if you do larger scale trade (involving massive quantities of goods, precious metals, and the like) which is required for large cities, then you'll eventually need banks.

The Roman Empire had no banks. It did okay for itself in terms of trade. ;)

Tiny farmsteads alone aren't typically 100% self-sufficient. Bottom line, they require trade for survival, because they're usually specialized to grow or ranch a few select products. Without trade, they'd die out -or- change to a more self-sufficient mode of life - which would be dramatically different than the villages we see dotting the map, with all their specialized tradesmen.

I'm not talking about eliminating trade. Only a system of financing that doesn't fit any of the published material in the setting. All the Realms material that I know of talks about stacks of gold coins, merchants watching their purses, etc.. It's not a world where there is insurance, readily available financing, and trust in a banking system. It's much more of a get in, get out, make that money, find some type of monster to watch it, sort of world.

Why would he want a stack of gold coins when he could get a certified bank "check" or promissory note? Large bags of gold are silly and dangerous. The latter is safer, lighter, and improves his chances of large, positive cash inflow. Think on a larger scale than one merchant selling his small stack of wares. Larger trade makes for a noble class... and this happens in Sembia and other Faerunian nations already.

Who would you trust to take care of the gold? Who issues these certificates? Would a merchant from Mintarn accept or trust the paper of a Calishite which states that there is gold in some vault in Teflamm? I think not.

In Eberron such a system is possible, where the Dragonmarked Houses have the necessary infrastructure and abilities to make it work. The same is not true for the Realms.

Technically, no one would get a loan or line of credit without a lien or some other form of collateral. PCs might get a loan for funding an adventure -if- the PC put up a valuable magic item as collateral. Or for an NPC, large loans could require collateral in the form of percentage cuts of the enterprise being undertaken... or the noble's villa.

There are a thousand ways to make banks, and large scale trade believable in the Realms. These things happened in medieval and renaissance times, and they're expressly stated as happening in the Realms. It's a given, and it's a great source of ideas for adventures! Banking and trade are only boring and mundane if you make them so.

Again, no one is saying that such things are boring. I'm simply saying that they are LESS INTERESTING than leg breakers, loan sharks, and miserly were-rat Mammon cultists wanting their money doubled in two weeks. The adventures behind making that monthly adjustable rate mortgage on your new estate just can't compete with being on the run from lycanthropic debt collectors WHO WILL EAT YOUR FAMILY.

#24

Therise

Dec 03, 2008 2:21:44

The Roman Empire had no banks. It did okay for itself in terms of trade. ;)

The mensarii were essentially public bankers appointed by the state. Romans also had negotiatores, mercatores, and argentarii.

I'm not talking about eliminating trade. Only a system of financing that doesn't fit any of the published material in the setting. All the Realms material that I know of talks about stacks of gold coins, merchants watching their purses, etc.. It's not a world where there is insurance, readily available financing, and trust in a banking system. It's much more of a get in, get out, make that money, find some type of monster to watch it, sort of world.

Ah, you must be playing 4E. ;)

Again, no one is saying that such things are boring. I'm simply saying that they are LESS INTERESTING than leg breakers, loan sharks, and miserly were-rat Mammon cultists wanting their money doubled in two weeks. The adventures behind making that monthly adjustable rate mortgage on your new estate just can't compete with being on the run from lycanthropic debt collectors WHO WILL EAT YOUR FAMILY.

Okay, well... you're more than welcome to ignore, downplay, or remove financial systems that have been in the Realms for decades. It's your Realms, after all. I'm just saying, it's there and you can use it for adventures if you want.

#25

Stigger

Dec 03, 2008 5:11:07

I'd say the church of Waukeen was probably viewed as being at least somewhat trustworthy by merchant types... and its not stacks of gold coins, generally they seem to prefer using more portable forms of currency, like gemstones and tradebars. As to the idea of adjustable rate mortgages... I don't get the impression anyone is talking about modern banking systems as we know them today, more like the Fuggers of the world... or Mirt the Moneylender back in the day... hells, you could even call the Roundshield system something of a proto stock market really.

#26

dio1632

Dec 03, 2008 14:41:49

Yes, yes, an excellent work!

Curiously, I was thinking about exactly this, when putting together my character -- whose father had made his money from the Spice trade before the spellplague.

Just thought I would add a tidbit of information. Have you ever read Salt? (Mike Kurlansky?) It tells how an enormous amount of trade historically arose from the salt trade. In Power of Faerun (I think...) it was mentioned that salt had little importance in the FR compared to our world because of the prevalence of magical means for preserving food.

With the spellplague it only stands to reason that salt may have become a powerful and important commodity/trade good. Preserving food is important. Simply guarding caravan after caravan can be a steady means of income on the side for adventurers.

Also, since merchants will always have large caravans transpoting salt, it makes it both cheaper and safer for other goods to be transported. They can hide shipments of silk and art in with a dozen wagons of salt. It makes a neat little plot hook to start an adventure.

But as I was saying, the change from overly abundant magic to that where people are very distrustful should change 4th ed. into a more 'normal' currency setting. Just have a lot of big shipments of the following: salt, rice, olives (including olive oil, it was a backbone of the Roman economy...), corn, and wheat. Areas that are major producers/traders would have crude banking practices: certificates representing the value of bulk transfers of commodities. It is much easier to pack a paper bill than a ton of wheat... I would say the following: Suzail, Athlkatla, Baldur's Gate, Waterdeep, and Teflamm to name a few. Those locations are also probably rich enough to have various vaults backing some trade bills just in case of drought, blight, and lost shipments. I believe, without doing much study, that a lot of modern banking may have developed from such things.

I hope I came up with something useful.

#27

dio1632

Dec 03, 2008 14:51:04

The Roman Empire had no banks. It did okay for itself in terms of trade.

It had no banks? Maybe not under that name. But individuals put their names and estates on the line for quick services, goods, and liquid assets all the time! The roads and aqueducts were financed with "bond issues" by arranging for people with a stake in the construction to contribute towards its completion. This is all finance.

Remember that wealth is more than currency! Everything is wealth, in proportion to its liquidity! The 20-year-old with 500 dollars is much richer than fifty-year-old citizen with 5000 -- the first can probably average 25-30 more years of productive labor than the second!

#28

derren_s.

Dec 03, 2008 14:57:30

Who would you trust to take care of the gold? Who issues these certificates? Would a merchant from Mintarn accept or trust the paper of a Calishite which states that there is gold in some vault in Teflamm? I think not.

It worked in the real world, so why wouldn't it in the realms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking

The church of Waukeen would be the primary address for banking in the realms.