And I plan on picking up Comanthyr on my next trip out.
And I plan on picking up Comanthyr on my next trip out.
-It can be downloaded for free at the WotC Downloads page, on their website.
One wonders if Wood Elves would cast it, given their penchant for druidic magic and the occassional dip into sorcery over wizardly magic... Green Elves maybe, they still did the Wizard thing as I recall... since we're mentioning Races of Faerun and all that. ;)
-Starleaf, a Wood ("Wild") Elf was the circle center for the casting of the Sundering ritual.
Yes, but Wood Elves didn't exist until after the Crown Wars, so...
Stigger!
Behave. Go kick a bunny or something.
----
All elves (minus half-elves) are able to use high magic. Magic runs through all their blood, despite some elven cultures with a tendency to turn away from it for other, more "worldly," things.
Ok. How bout the demon elves (fey'ri, right?)? And can different subraces of elves create a circle of highmagic with each other or do they have to be of the same culture?
Good point: Fey'ri. No. Their bloodline--genetic make up-- much like half-elves, is no longer pure.
Subraces of elves--any elves--can come together and do high magic. The problem is not the type of elf, but their affinity towards magic. When you get into Wood and Wild elves, you will find few that are pursuant in such an art. It doesn't mean that it can't be achieved.
For the most part, you are going to find Sun and Moon elves at the task.
As to the official explanation, I think a lot of elves just said screw it, I put it down to the gold elves not finding enough ruthlessly evil types who will bend to their will and follow their lead long enough to replenish the ranks without them stabbing each other in the back. Maybe the Eldreth Veluthingy keeps snagging all the good ones of late. ;)
One more thing (for now atleast) why does it seem as though the use of high magic has died recently? It was all the rage back in the day but since 1,3## or even later it's died out. Lack of Knowledge or what?
-There's less Elves and less Elven empires spanning the continent. It would follow that, then, there'd be less practitioners.
-There's less Elves and less Elven empires spanning the continent. It would follow that, then, there'd be less practitioners.
I would also say that creating the rules and restrictions for such things was not a priority for the designers. How many people are going to have an all elven gaming group with everyone a wizard?
I would also say that creating the rules and restrictions for such things was not a priority for the designers. How many people are going to have an all elven gaming group with everyone a wizard?
-Eh, none of that matters, since there's much more to things than just D&D games and stats and rules.
True, most High Elven magic is more than likely going to be performed by NPCs in most common games.
Exactly.
-Eh, none of that matters, since there's much more to things than just D&D games and stats and rules.
What? Like chocolate covered popcorn? What the hell are you talking about this time?
-Eh, none of that matters, since there's much more to things than just D&D games and stats and rules.
I agree. I think the roleplaying and getting into the feel of the setting is much more important.
I agree. I think the roleplaying and getting into the feel of the setting is much more important.
What the hell are you talking about?!
Secret code talk sux and is not allowed!!!
Good point: Fey'ri. No. Their bloodline--genetic make up-- much like half-elves, is no longer pure.
Subraces of elves--any elves--can come together and do high magic. The problem is not the type of elf, but their affinity towards magic. When you get into Wood and Wild elves, you will find few that are pursuant in such an art. It doesn't mean that it can't be achieved.
For the most part, you are going to find Sun and Moon elves at the task.
Interestingly enough I was just reading Forsaken House and came across this:
"I know," Sarya (leader of House Dlardrageth, and fey'ri, actuallly true daemonfey as her father was a Balor) snapped. "You have told me many times, Malkizid. Unfortunantly, only one of my line ever mastered High Magic, and his knowledge is not available to me- though I may soon be able to remedy that shortcoming."
I know novels aren't strickly cannon, but it is right there...
*bold added. Underline text added.
--she stated her "line." That means bloodline and not necessarily the Fey'ri themselves. Thus, her comment, "his knowledge is not available to me" makes complete sense as such a bloodline is either dead or will not cooperate properly."Though I may soon be able to remedy that shortcoming," may simply resolve to the mythal they were ready to exploit.
LK, I'd actually like to hear your take on this point. I find this an interesting observation.
I know novels aren't strickly cannon, but it is right there...
-The novels are canon. But, that's neither here nor there. House Dlardraegeth is a Sun Elven family, like you yourself and JD were saying. Sun Elves can cast High Magic no problem. The scenes with Araevin speaking with...what the heck was his name? The persona within the Dlardraegeth Selu'Kiira?
-The novels are canon. But, that's neither here nor there. House Dlardraegeth is a Sun Elven family, like you yourself and JD were saying. Sun Elves can cast High Magic no problem. The scenes with Araevin speaking with...what the heck was his name? The persona within the Dlardraegeth Selu'Kiira?
And, you boob?
This specific scene takes place before then when Sarya is speaking with that same person before usiing the crippled Mythal in Myth-Glaurach. So the question produced from this is can Demon Tainted Sun Elves produce high magic?
You save yourself a number of headaches regarding High Magic lore if you treat the tradition wielded by Sarya's relative, his opponent (sort of) and Araevin Teshurr as a completely different form of Epic Magic/overpowered ritual. The entire premise of that tradition involved binding one essence to something else to aquire increased individual power. The standard tradition of High Magic commonly referenced from 2E put more emphasis on innately elven capacities (half-fiends need not apply), harmony with the community (paranoid self-centered sociopaths need not apply, applicant sociopaths must work well with their fellow sociopaths) and occasionally had Corellon's direct oversight.
The traditional view is that all old-style High Magic required Corellon's consent (if memory serves, been awhile since I looked it up), I'm reserving judgement on what that means if applied to everything since credited to be caused by High Magic.
The traditional view is that all old-style High Magic required Corellon's consent (if memory serves, been awhile since I looked it up), I'm reserving judgement on what that means if applied to everything since credited to be caused by High Magic.
Considering Mystra's hold on the weave and that a single--unnamed--mage once accomplished, himself, what it would normally take an entire circle to do with high magic, I'm not sure if I agree. Not saying it might not have been stated someplace--and probably under assumption--but the power of the magic wielded and and what was required was up to Lady M.
-Those Netherese spells, they drew wholly from the Weave, and ultimately, were bad for it. Epic (Elven High Magic) Magic, it only partially draws from the Weave, and isn't that bad for it.
Bejebuz spank you like a horny teenager.
If High Magic only partially draws from the Weave, where does the rest come from? They got an oil reserve someplace, bud?
If High Magic only partially draws from the Weave, where does the rest come from? They got an oil reserve someplace, bud?
-Their own energy. That's why Epic Magic (of which Elven High Magic is a branch of) has those EXP drains when the spell is cast, or ability score drains, and other things that are harmful (relatively speaking) to the caster. They are powering the spells partially with their own life forces or whatever you want to call them.
The part you speak of only comes through the elves because of that tie.
Considering Mystra's hold on the weave and that a single--unnamed--mage once accomplished, himself, what it would normally take an entire circle to do with high magic, I'm not sure if I agree. Not saying it might not have been stated someplace--and probably under assumption--but the power of the magic wielded and and what was required was up to Lady M.
2 Key authorization
Mystra's approval was required because it was Weave based magic. You don't get to do Weave based magic without the Lady's approval or at least the Lady's indifference.
Corellon's approval was required because the unique manner that Elven High Magic operated in was primarily a gift of Corellon to his people. Without Corellon's aid the ritual couldn't be completed properly.
Elven High Magic was not and is not the only way to wield excessively powerful magics. Most of the rest don't give Corellon a vote. Notably this is based on 2E thinking. Using 3E lore, I'd probably minimze/remove Corellon from the equation. Since I don't deal in 4E FR, someone else can handle that issue.
No. At least in the case of the elves, it was do to the fact that they were a part of the Weave to begin with. It is, in essence, a part of their life source--soul--whatever. Therefore, it all comes from the weave.
The part you speak of only comes through the elves because of that tie.
-That is how Epic Magic works. With Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, whatever other race, it works the same.
Using 3E lore, I'd probably minimze/remove Corellon from the equation.
-I've chalked it up to a symbolic nod of approval, that most High Magi don't do "big" things without first getting Corellon Larethian's approval, though they can easily go on and cast the spells without any help from Corellon Larethian whatsoever.
If High Magic only partially draws from the Weave, where does the rest come from? They got an oil reserve someplace, bud?
It's also been known to draw on near by portals, causing odd things to happen.. like coming out the other side naked and minus your weapons.
2 Key authorization
Huh?
Is that like a 4 key pin code?
Mystra's approval was required because it was Weave based magic. You don't get to do Weave based magic without the Lady's approval or at least the Lady's indifference.
Um…that was my point.
Corellon's approval was required because the unique manner that Elven High Magic operated in was primarily a gift of Corellon to his people. Without Corellon's aid the ritual couldn't be completed properly.
Um, you’ll have to explain that. That means Corellon and Mystra have to collaborate in High Magic, making it a mix of divine and arcane.
Is this stated someplace?
Elven High Magic was not and is not the only way to wield excessively powerful magics. Most of the rest don't give Corellon a vote. Notably this is based on 2E thinking. Using 3E lore, I'd probably minimze/remove Corellon from the equation. Since I don't deal in 4E FR, someone else can handle that issue.
Already agreed.
-That is how Epic Magic works. With Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, whatever other race, it works the same.
Not arguing rules, but I would ask for a sample of prose demonstrating another race executing such a feat as described by elves.
Without unwilling human sacrifices, thank you.
It's also been known to draw on near by portals, causing odd things to happen.. like coming out the other side naked and minus your weapons.
Will you shut up!!
The last thing I want to think about is you popping out of a portal naked without your sword.
Point it somewhere else and live free...just not around me.
Is that like a 4 key pin code?
More like the portions in Sum of all Fears and possibly actual policy where the President can't actually launch a nuke strike on his own personal authority. The President gives the order and a code, then a ranking (typically cabinet) official needs to confirm the order and provide their own code or the military ignores the order.
Um, you’ll have to explain that. That means Corellon and Mystra have to collaborate in High Magic, making it a mix of divine and arcane.
Is this stated someplace?
Not really a mix of the two types so much as Corellon needs to okay an action that falls within his distinct dominion. Anything related to Elven High Magic stems from Corellon and he has the right to ban a given use of it, Mystra gets the same right because Elven High Magic is still magic and therefore hers. At least that's the running consensus a while back as applied solely to 2E Elven High Magic. The text isn't where I expected it to be so either I'm missing, need to look elsewhere or the matter was misinterpreted several years ago and I've been lax in my research.
Not arguing rules, but I would ask for a sample of prose demonstrating another race executing such a feat as described by elves.
Without unwilling human sacrifices, thank you.
Cormanthyr references a handful of near mythals that were probably human built and had several similarities to elven Wizard Mythals. Access to certain Netherese or Raurinese (I think) lore was helpful. Humanity also had limited access to True Dweomers and Level 10 spells provided that one did not mind Mystra's close attention.
As to unwilling sacrifices, ehmm, depends on the example. Shoon never struck me as a particularly squeamish place but maybe I'm thinking too much of recent history.
Not arguing rules, but I would ask for a sample of prose demonstrating another race executing such a feat as described by elves.
Without unwilling human sacrifices, thank you.
-Rules are the only place that we really see Epic Magic, of the non-Elven kind, that I am aware of.
-Rules are the only place that we really see Epic Magic, of the non-Elven kind, that I am aware of.
Thus, my point.
---
MaskedOne - For the most part, I was agreeing with you and just giving you that Bejebuz butt. No need to get all technical and CENSORED.
I'm delicate!!
Eh well, moving on, at least until I can muster up the patience to read through my elven lore till I find what I want.
Thus, my point.
-Well, I mean, the rules say that that's how Epic Magic works for anyone. I would think that the novels would stick to what those books said. 95% of the time, novels do.
The subject deals with base magical theory in FR pre-4e, one of my preferred topics. Generally aquires at least some technical attention from me. Mostly though, I'm annoyed because the reference I wanted isn't where I thought it was and I don't particularly want to re-read Cormanthyr in its entirety to find something that's normally a side item. I don't particularly like Cormanthyr, it's well done but I have limited tolerance for FR elves these days.
By all means, do what you do. It's beneficial.
-Well, I mean, the rules say that that's how Epic Magic works for anyone. I would think that the novels would stick to what those books said. 95% of the time, novels do.
Well, it's the 5% that does everything injustice.
To your point: Dwarven High Magic?
I don't see that being anything but divine within its nature. Back to MaskedOne's point of Corellon giving the OK for it, I would see Moradin as the complete conduit--no Dwarven access to the weave required.
While Elves are more magical by nature, Dwarves are more religiously devoted. As such, I believe the power channeled would come from such a source.
Rules be damned.
Dwarven Epic spells if translated to 2e would be more likely to follow the lines of either Quest Spells (extreme divine intervention, borderline impossible to get rid of and available to anyone with access to the Cleric class) or True Dweomers (available to anyone who can get a high enough wizard and maybe cleric level) which is the mechanical inspiration for Epic spellcasting and the incantation rules as far as I can tell. True Dweomers function through the Weave to my knowledge. Quest spells should work through the Weave normally but due to the extensive divine involvement and the excessive amount of divine motivation for you to even get one, I could see Moradin personally manifesting and using Alter Reality (or a functional 2E equivalent) to guarantee his will is done if Mystra blocks the casting or the Weave is damaged.
3.X epic spellcasting effectively takes the role of Elven High Magic, Quest Spells and True Dweomers. While mechanically practical, it does take away some flavor.
Well, it's the 5% that does everything injustice.
To your point: Dwarven High Magic?
I don't see that being anything but divine within its nature. Back to MaskedOne's point of Corellon giving the OK for it, I would see Moradin as the complete conduit--no Dwarven access to the weave required.
While Elves are more magical by nature, Dwarves are more religiously devoted. As such, I believe the power channeled would come from such a source.
Rules be damned.
-As was mentioned, in 2e, Elven High Magic was something different than Epic Magic. In 2e, it was a way for Elves to get to use higher level spells that they normally wouldn't be able to use. In 3e, it was shoehorned into the Epic Magic category, wholly. The "Elves still need Corellon Larethian's approval", which was part of it in 2e remained, even though to use Epic Magic, no such thing is needed. As I said earlier, I tend to look at this as something not literal, as in they can't cast the spells without Corellon Larethian's approval, but rather, they don't cast the spells without Corellon Larethian's approval. That keeps all of the canon intact.
-With Dwarves and their theoretical use of Epic Magic, a deity "okaying" it's use isn't necessary. So, with Moradin or without Moradin, a Dwarf with access to Epic Magic can utilize Epic Magic.
Epic Magic: A system in 3e that allows casters to cast spells beyond the power of "normal" 9th Level spells, but at a price (EXP, literal gold, research time, casting time, etc.).
"True Dweomers": A term that originally comes from Mystara, I believe. Basically, this encapsulates primarily Netherese spells that we know are of 10th, 11th, or 12th Level, that are no longer able to be cast because of the changes made to the Weave after Karsus' Folly, that resulted in Mystra's Ban. They're commonly called '10th Level+' spells as well.
-With Dwarves and their theoretical use of Epic Magic, a deity "okaying" it's use isn't necessary. So, with Moradin or without Moradin, a Dwarf with access to Epic Magic can utilize Epic Magic.
Well, my point from before just sort of got twisted, stuck up my ass, regurgitated to the finest point, and brought back to my original point.
I guess I should express the question this way: Does Divine and Arcane magic mix in anyway within the rules?
Ok. But in 3e, people cast 10thlevel spells all the time (well 9th and below spells with metamagic) so are these 10th level spells just refering to 2e lists?
-In 3e, people have access to 10th Level spell slots, but they don't actually cast 10th level spells. Any spells that can be memorized using that slot are normal spells that are augmented by Metamagic feats. These aren't 10th Level spells. As was mentioned, Netheril: Empire of Magic has a list.
-To use terms from 3e to make it more understandable (I hope), True 10th+ Level spells are just as strong as Epic Spells, but don't require any of the the penalties (EXP, ability scores, time, money, etc.). You cast them like normal spells, and *poof*, they happen. Unlike Epic Spells, where you develop the 'Seed', compute the DC, cast the spell, suffer the backlash and all of that, and then have the spell work.
I guess I should express the question this way: Does Divine and Arcane magic mix in anyway within the rules?
-In what way, specifically? The closest I can think would be these two points: Since all Divine Magic uses the Weave as the conduit from the deity to the Cleric, Mystra is involved, at least esoterically, and The Simbul's Synestrodweomer (Sp?) converts memorized spells into healing spells (something that is traditionally only Divine magic). There might also be a feat that has to do with "crossing over", but I can't think of what exactly it is, or what it does. It sounds a bit familiar, though. I'll have to look it up and see if I can find it.
-In what way, specifically?
Not specifically--simply. Where in the "rules" does this take place?
As for those that followed the previous post and answered, I ask the same.
Elven High Magic (2E):
Elves of Evermeet treats it as a way to bypass the level restrictions on Elven mages.
Cormanthyr treats it as a way to explain certain very high powered magics that elves have used (i.e. nation killers and mythals).
The mechanics are not the same between the two.
True Dweomers (2E):
precursor to Epic spells, similar seed based spell creation. The rules are in Dungeon Master Option: High Level Campaigns. They are refenced passingly when discussing level 10 spells post ban within Secrets of the Magister. The 2 may or may not be the same thing.
Quest Spells (2E):
Specialty spells granted by divine powers to serve divine goals, near impossible to get rid of since they are not mortal magic. They are referenced in the 2E Tome of Magic. I don't remember an FR reference for them off hand.
Epic Spells (3E):
The last remaining form of true greater than level 9 spells which ate all the others. Available in the Epic Level Handbook.
EDIT ADD-ON:
Level 10 spells post ban (2E):
Referenced in Secrets of the Magister and Cormanthyr, various restrictions that apply differently between elves and humans. Again may be the same as True Dweomers, may not. Though, I'm increasingly convinced that the two are separate forms.
Thinking of it though, the Blessed of the Seven Sisters exalted feat, from the Players Guide to the Realms, allowed it to a certain extent, so I guess there is a Realms specific answer out there too.
Blending the two, arcane and divine? Specific to the Realms, nowhere that I can think of, unless you count the Arcane Devotee, which I honestly wouldn't in terms of blending the two.
-And, even that isn't necessarily "blending" Arcane and Divine magic as much as it is having the capability to cast both seperatley.
Another non-FR arcane/divine blend would be the geomancer. Though I can see that class fitting in nicely with the magic system in FR because magic seems to be a natural part of the FR landscape, and the geomancer draws power from the land.
-Geomancers have precidence in being in the Forgotten Realms as per Darkvision, Stardeep and Plague of Spells, with the latter two only mentioning the Geomancer in the first source.
-Geomancers have precidence in being in the Forgotten Realms as per Darkvision, Stardeep and Plague of Spells, with the latter two only mentioning the Geomancer in the first source.
Wow, I haven't read any of those. I own Darkvision, I just haven't gotten around to reading it yet.
If you're talking about literally mixing arcane and divine magic into some new third form of magic, well, then you're out of luck.
-Yeah, that's what I thought JD was talking about. I may be wrong, but that's what I thought he was going for, anyway.
I guess I should express the question this way: Does Divine and Arcane magic mix in anyway within the rules?
Do you care about edition and how much of a blend? I can probably (I'm not gonna say for certain without checking sources) find you clerics casting arcane spells. I can find wizards granted special boons by divine powers and arcane prcs available only to those with specific patron gods. If you want to be slightly exotic then 2E mantles were less costly if one was either a Magister or Chosen of Mystra and there is I believe at least one arcane spell in 2E that didn't function properly without Mystra's blessing. I probably can't find a third class or prc that literally takes both bases and forms a completely different form.
Well, it depends on how you interpret the Divine Shroud ability they get... and on how you interpret the word 'blend'. If you look at it as being able to cast both types governed by a single-attribute, then Exalted Arcanist and a few other PrC's, as were mentioned, would fit the bill. If you're talking about literally mixing arcane and divine magic into some new third form of magic, well, then you're out of luck.
-Yeah, that's what I thought JD was talking about. I may be wrong, but that's what I thought he was going for, anyway.
As described, no.
I’m talking where clerics and mages commune to cast a magic that is above and beyond arcane or divine--where it is simple Magic.
Do you care about edition and how much of a blend? I can probably (I'm not gonna say for certain without checking sources) find you clerics casting arcane spells. I can find wizards granted special boons by divine powers and arcane prcs available only to those with specific patron gods. If you want to be slightly exotic then 2E mantles were less costly if one was either a Magister or Chosen of Mystra and there is I believe at least one arcane spell in 2E that didn't function properly without Mystra's blessing. I probably can't find a third class or prc that literally takes both bases and forms a completely different form.
As High Magic arose in 2e, that would be the ideal place to find such a thing.
But, as dwarves didn’t gain the ability to use the arcane until 3e….
Theoretically though, Epic magic in general sort of ignores the divide between arcane and divine to some extent, though there is some stuff only clerics can do with it. No reason a cleric casting an epic spell couldn't have an arcane caster included in the 'circle', and vice versa.
Does that mean a drow, or worse even, a human, can use it?
Speaking about restrictions. 2e High Magic had elven racial restrictions. 3e Epic doesn't have any of them, least of all elven race whatsoever.
Does that mean a drow, or worse even, a human, can use it?
-No, because a Drow, Human, or whoever else, won't have the "formulas" for those Epic Spells. In theory, they can develop spells that work just like the Elven High Magic ones, but they aren't Elven High Magic spells. Case in point: Drow can use Epic Magic, and Epic Magic spells that mimic the spells cast by Elven Selu'Taar. They aren't using Elven High Magic, however.
-In Elves of Faerûn, Epic Magic that is Elven High Magic has the [Elven High Magic] tag, just like 'Good' spells have the [Good] tag, 'Vile' spells have the [Vile] tag, and so on. Longarm, I believe it was, straightened the system out for us.
Well, then Elven High Magic is what you're looking for... as I understand it, clerics and high mages can pool their resources when their committing perfidy upon the Realms calls for it... such as when they punished the Ilythiiri and gave us the drow..
Stig. That's where this CENSORED originated!!!
I said show me another race besides the elves....
Stig. That's where this CENSORED originated!!!
I said show me another race besides the elves....
Epic magic would work. It doesn't have to be Elven High Magic to get things to work cooperatively. All you need is someone of another race actually capable of casting said 'big' magic, and you're set. The raising of the Mythal of Silverymoon almost had to have included divine and arcane casters. The Netherese and the Thayvians both have probably pulled off epic rituals, though I doubt that either would have ever thought to include divine casters, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have, just that they didn't. Unlikely the Cormyreans ever would either, considering Vangy's use of the word Spell-Beggar (or something to that effect) too.
My read was that there was definitely a sense of competition between arcane and divine casters, which was mostly coming from the arcane, that prevented more cooperation than we actually saw.
Stig. That's where this CENSORED originated!!!
I said show me another race besides the elves....
-Didn't we cover this already? There's only the rules that say that races other than Elves and Humans can cast Epic Magic. Elves and Humans are the only races off the top of my head that we have concrete evidence of Epic Magic being cast.
Epic magic would work. It doesn't have to be Elven High Magic to get things to work cooperatively. All you need is someone of another race actually capable of casting said 'big' magic, and you're set. The raising of the Mythal of Silverymoon almost had to have included divine and arcane casters. The Netherese and the Thayvians both have probably pulled off epic rituals, though I doubt that either would have ever thought to include divine casters, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have, just that they didn't. Unlikely the Cormyreans ever would either, considering Vangy's use of the word Spell-Beggar (or something to that effect) too.
My read was that there was definitely a sense of competition between arcane and divine casters, which was mostly coming from the arcane, that prevented more cooperation than we actually saw.
(sigh)
-Didn't we cover this already? There's only the rules that say that races other than Elves and Humans can cast Epic Magic. Elves and Humans are the only races off the top of my head that we have concrete evidence of Epic Magic being cast.
No. We DID NOT.
I'm moving to the Show Me state for this crap!!
And the dwarves of Amrinnidar, or however that went, supposedly had a rather impressive academy back in the day to potentially counter any threat that Netheril posed to the dwarven people, so one might conclude that at least one of them possibly got to the point where it was possible.
Largely though, I tend to see hin, gnomes, and dwarves as having societies that don't really encourage that depth of study into magic, since it takes the practicioners away from the community too much for them to be comfortable with it. Not a lack of ability per se, just a lack of interest, at least that's the way I've always reasoned it.
No. We DID NOT.
-Sure we did. Go look at some of the posts in the mid-30s to the mid-40s or so in this thread.
Well, if we go by the tale of some gnomes supposedly "moving" the sun with their illusions to trick an undead horde to come out in daylight to save their village/town/whatever, we do have an example of gnomes using epic magic, possibly... can't even remember where I read that, beyond it being 2e anyway, though.
And the dwarves of Amrinnidar, or however that went, supposedly had a rather impressive academy back in the day to potentially counter any threat that Netheril posed to the dwarven people, so one might conclude that at least one of them possibly got to the point where it was possible.
Largely though, I tend to see hin, gnomes, and dwarves as having societies that don't really encourage that depth of study into magic, since it takes the practicioners away from the community too much for them to be comfortable with it. Not a lack of ability per se, just a lack of interest, at least that's the way I've always reasoned it.
That's what I am talking about. ;)
Of course, it just backs up my point.
-Sure we did. Go look at some of the posts in the mid-30s to the mid-40s or so in this thread.
Sure, we DIDN'T--you evasive goonie!!
You can base this post on my refined second question, but not on my first--which was the original point.
If Stig can grasp this and shine like a CENSORED star, you certainly can.
Sure, we DIDN'T--you evasive goonie!!
-You're looking for examples of Non-Elves using Epic Magic in Forgotten Realms lore, right? I want to make sure we're on the same page here.
-You're looking for examples of Non-Elves using Epic Magic in Forgotten Realms lore, right? I want to make sure we're on the same page here.
"High Magic."
I didn't ask for the Epic Magic crap you are trying to inject into this!!
I asked for prose.
"High Magic."
I didn't ask for the Epic Magic crap you are trying to inject into this!!
I asked for prose.
-Elven High Magic is something that only Elves can use. Elven High Magic is a specific subset of Epic Magic, however. Epic Magic can be used by anyone, according to the rules. Forgotten Realms literature, because the Epic Magic rule system is fairly new, doesn't feature any beings other than Elves using Epic Magic. In sourcebooks, many Netherese spells that are/were no longer allowable were transcribed as Epic Spells. Amaunator's Sun over Elversuit was created using an Epic Spell ritual. I am sure there are a few others.
He didn't include the "Elven" part in there...
-That's what my response covered. Elven High Magic is a kind of Epic Magic that only Elves use. Everyone else just uses "regular" Epic Magic, because we don't have any specific names of their "forms", like we have with Elves.
-That's what my response covered. Elven High Magic is a kind of Epic Magic that only Elves use. Everyone else just uses "regular" Epic Magic, because we don't have any specific names of their "forms", like we have with Elves.
I can't even call on Bejebuz at this point. No.
I must call on God, Himself. Why? Because you are a CENSORED butt-moose that twists everything to your own twisted ends. And, personally, I don't have the time to, nor the inclination, to scan for the facts that prove you wrong.
And, I mean, in your answer--not your facts.
True, but he's worse at nitpicking sometimes than Dan was/is. ;)
Who the CENSORED is Dan?!
And why isn't he here to rip LK an new CENSORED?
I can't even call on Bejebuz at this point. No.
I must call on God, Himself. Why? Because you are a CENSORED butt-moose that twists everything to your own twisted ends. And, personally, I don't have the time to, nor the inclination, to scan for the facts that prove you wrong.
And, I mean, in your answer--not your facts.
-There's nothing that proves me wrong. Only Elves use Elven High Magic. Elven High Magic is a subtype of Epic Magic. Epic Magic can be used by anyone. As such, other races can have their own Epic Magic tradition, just like how Elven High Magic is the Elves' Epic Magic tradition. In sourcebooks and novels, we don't get the names of any other Epic Magic traditions, but we get a few scattered examples of other races utilizing Epic Magic.
They are resourceful, ambitious and experimentation minded enough to have used vile epic spells. Particularly spells with the domination seed to enslave the hairy ones in droves.
-There's nothing that proves me wrong. Only Elves use Elven High Magic. Elven High Magic is a subtype of Epic Magic. Epic Magic can be used by anyone. As such, other races can have their own Epic Magic tradition, just like how Elven High Magic is the Elves' Epic Magic tradition. In sourcebooks and novels, we don't get the names of any other Epic Magic traditions, but we get a few scattered examples of other races utilizing Epic Magic.
You are answering a question that was never asked, you noodle-nob!! That's the point!!!
Sarruhk and Yuan-Ti might have been able to perform high magic fueled by sacrifices.
They are resourceful, ambitious and experimentation minded enough to have used vile epic spells. Particularly spells with the domination seed to enslave the hairy ones in droves.
Another part of my real question excluded the use of sacrifice. All you would have to do if it was included is look to our friendly Thayian lich.
-You asked, specifically, at the beginning, if there's any Forgotten Realms literature out there that has "Dwarven High Magic". The answer is, as I said, no. That doesn't mean that Dwarves can't use Epic Magic. By the rules, they can. That just means that, as of right now, we haven't ever been told about a Dwarven Epic Magic tradition.
You're still **** around.
Granted, you are good at it, but it still makes you the guy **** around.
It's a trick. Get an axe.
I'm guessing its the alcohol asking the questions... :P
Probably. Jager usually puts me to sleep, but who knows what I do after I'm out?
Hell!! I might actually be EB!!