Does anybody know where I can find the history of the Forgotten Realms before and after the spellplague? I tried the Forgotten Realms wiki and it didn't have much, particularly after the spellplague.
Theres a timeline here.
I'd like to point out that any time line even by a game designer is not officially canon...
even though a good deal of all of us consider it so
Thanks, silver.
Check out candlekeep.com, it's the Library of Forgotten Realms Lore.
If Brian James wrote it, and he's a Forgotten Realms writer, then I'd say its pretty canon.
If Brian James wrote it, and he's a Forgotten Realms writer, then I'd say its pretty canon.
Except BRJ didn't write everything in concert with his WOTC superiors. Their yes or no determines whether it's canon or not. Luckily, however, they've been kind enough to accept it for the time being.
The source being questioned is The Grand History of the Realms. Certainly a valuable buy if you look to add depth to your game.
I have to buy the history of the Forgotten Realms (which any fan will likely have compiled for free)?
Excellent marketing technique, Wizards. :P
A fan did compile it. His name is Brian R. James and it was a work of great toil and greater talent. And you know what? Wizards looked at it and saw how good it was and then published it. And you know what? Compared with having to undertake that gargantuan task myself, I would much rather pay a fairly inconsiderable amount of money that is not only going to support my hobby, it adds to the possibility of Wizards possibly producing more BRJ stuff and I get a nifty book out of it too! That is all of the pre-spellplague history. The post-spellplague stuff is in that thread and in others scattered around these boards.
All in all, even though it probably is a marketing strategy by Wizards, it is one I much prefer over some of their others.
Touche. 'Course, the FR Wiki is pretty close to a compilation of what's happened up to the Spellplague.
Given that my character is trained in history (otherwise I wouldn't really be asking for history), what do I as a player need to know? I'm assuming that characters untrained in history would know things that are fairly common knowledge, maybe slightly uncommon when it comes to their region of origin.
Ditto.
Operating under the presumption that 4e skill challenges work along similar lines to SWSE's, I'd say it depended more on your check, or however that's resolved, than on your out-of-character knowledge. You could actually be doing yourself a disservice if your DM doesn't use or bother with official lore, so I'd recommend it being something you at least ask your DM about before using it in-game.
Having said that however, I know that a month ago my local Borders had a copy of TGHotR mentioned previously in stock, and I'm almost certain you could find it on Amazon cheaply if you're of a mind to purchase it for your own edification.
Ditto.
This was actually for Iluvrien's comment.
Though, I give another to Stiggers.
The source being questioned is The Grand History of the Realms. Certainly a valuable buy if you look to add depth to your game.
A great great book
Was that a positive comment? Who was that masked man!! 
it was a great book except for the last couple of pages
Hows that?
Better. We must keep some negativity around here.
Indeed, where would we be without the everflowing fount of cynical negativity that these boards can be when discussing the 4e Realms...
Nowhere--that's where. 
Or in line at the pharmacy waiting to refill our antidepressent prescriptions...
A great great book
True, though it could have benefited by an index.
And the person who decdied to re-use artwork that isn't at all appropriate whatsoever needs to be flogged.
Gomez
Well, to be fair, it did have a quasi-index thingy that was pretty inadequate. Though most Realms books would have benefitted with an index that very few actually had, if we're gonna get nitpicky about things...
Though I agree that the art director needs a serious beat down, and not in a fun sort of way.
What you guys didn't love the picture of the Warforged, that was actually a dragon picture. We should have seen what was coming down the road with just that picture alone.
Subliminal Messages before the end...
There were tons of warning really...
Yeah, the worforged picture was a major oversight for a Realms book. I wish I had been given the opportunity to review the document before it was printed, but alas freelancers don't enjoy that privilege. All in all, however, I feel the book turned out very nice. It's infinitely more useful if you have a copy in PDF format so you can search the text. I still use it for every Realms project I work on and I suspect most other designers do as well.
Illustrations aside, I have found the book quite useful for fleshing out details that would have otherwise been unknown to me.
I did not know when I ordered it that the book was in a chronological outline format. What I was hoping for was an actual historical treatise on the Realms. That being said, the work that went into compiling all of that information is astounding.
Thanks for your work, Brian!
I don't know if I count as a designer, but I do use the GHotR as a reference. It is just not so easy to look up things unless you know when they opccurred. And in several cases I would like to know the resources the events were from (i.e. I would like to know in what book the Standing Stone was destroyed). Annotations listing the source would have beeb desireable, though I realize only few people would actually have a use for it (proof that I'm a geek, I guess :P ).
Gomez
(i.e. I would like to know in what book the Standing Stone was destroyed).
Last Mythal Trilogy. I want to say Book 2, but it might have been Book 3.
Was it also sold as a PDF? I'd love that! I have one of your early originals, but a PDF of the final book would be great and save a lot of time flipping through pages. Where can I buy a PDF final version?
It was once upon a time avaiable as a PDF, as was most of the other sourcebooks/box sets. Unfortunatly WotC, in their infinite wisdom, decided to stop PDF sales on all products. Even the older ones, which makes no sense to me, I mean I can understand the newer stuff, you dont want people file sharing it, you want them out buying it for themselves, but any pre 4e stuff should be available I mean if Im buyin the 3e Realms guide off of Ebay or what ever, theyre not getting any money for that, so why not have em availble as PDFs that we could buy, in which case they WOULD be makin some money off of it. I think all the older 1e & 2e stuff should be free. Ok im starting to rant now, Im gonna shut up now.
I haven't read it, but from what I've been reading here - it sounds like an awesome book. I'm gonna have to pick it up and settle in with it.
It is an excellent book to have, If youre into Realmslore, And you can probably get it pretty cheap used off of Ebay or Amazon. If youre into the history of the Realms, it is most definately the book to get.
(i.e. I would like to know in what book the Standing Stone was destroyed).
Last Mythal Trilogy. I want to say Book 2, but it might have been Book 3.
Thanks. I guess I know what books to buy next :P
If it makes you feel any worse, it was once available for free, though you didn't get the spiffy anecdotes and shorts you got with the published version... and to be honest, the art was a bit better in the pre-publishing iteration of it.
Screw the spellplague lead-up, I'm just mad about what they did with Auseriel. (Auserial? I seem to have utterly forgotten how to spell it.) NO THE ELVES CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS AND THE MOONFLOWERS HAVEN'T HAD ENOUGH CRAP GO ON IN THEIR LIVES WE NEED MORE ANGST. No one cares about that Maura chick, right? Also herpderp we kind of accidentally completely forgot that the Tree of Souls had already been used quick cover for it.
I hear you. Perhaps some day the opportunity will arise to address these issues and fill in the blanks.
If it makes you feel any worse, it was once available for free, though you didn't get the spiffy anecdotes and shorts you got with the published version... and to be honest, the art was a bit better in the pre-publishing iteration of it.
Well, I have the pre-published version, once available on the web. But I never knew that you could buy the PDF of the final published one. As a completist, this sits in my craw like sand in an oyster.
Oh sure, someday it might lead to a pearl, but right now it's buggin' me something fierce. Princess want NAO!!!
**shakes fist at WoTC**
**makes Grrrface!**
Having a hard time buying that rational & logical thingy from your sig at this moment...
Though I agree, the yoinking of the PDFs is incredibly irritating.
Truly. This barely qualifies as a fit of pique really, but best to nip these things in the bud early on.
Wow I just had a Dr. Phil moment.
As a rational, logical princess, I'm not allowed (very) infrequent moments of nerdrage?
As long as the princess shows up in a chainmail bikini, she can nerdrage all she wants.
Gomez,
who ordered the Last Mythal box (it's on its way)
Screw the spellplague lead-up, I'm just mad about what they did with Auseriel. (Auserial? I seem to have utterly forgotten how to spell it.) NO THE ELVES CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS AND THE MOONFLOWERS HAVEN'T HAD ENOUGH CRAP GO ON IN THEIR LIVES WE NEED MORE ANGST. No one cares about that Maura chick, right? Also herpderp we kind of accidentally completely forgot that the Tree of Souls had already been used quick cover for it.
I hear you. Perhaps some day the opportunity will arise to address these issues and fill in the blanks.
I dearly, dearly hope so. It irks me to see things like that done seemingly randomly, and then dropped entirely and ignored. 
I dearly, dearly hope so. It irks me to see things like that done seemingly randomly, and then dropped entirely and ignored.
You and me both. Now that my hopes have been resurrected that Elaine may be returning to the Realms, I "dearly, dearly hope" that not only that this mess is resolved, but that the agent of that resolution is Elaine herself.
A new Realms novel, written by Elaine? My brain is drooling already at the thought ;).
Screw the spellplague lead-up, I'm just mad about what they did with Auseriel. (Auserial? I seem to have utterly forgotten how to spell it.) NO THE ELVES CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS AND THE MOONFLOWERS HAVEN'T HAD ENOUGH CRAP GO ON IN THEIR LIVES WE NEED MORE ANGST. No one cares about that Maura chick, right? Also herpderp we kind of accidentally completely forgot that the Tree of Souls had already been used quick cover for it.
I hear you. Perhaps some day the opportunity will arise to address these issues and fill in the blanks.
I dearly, dearly hope so. It irks me to see things like that done seemingly randomly, and then dropped entirely and ignored.
Actually, I don't have a problem with unanswered questions. When you jump ahead 100 years in the timeline, you're jumping OVER 100 years of history. That can't easily be summarized. We wouldn't WANT it to be dealt with in summary. Untold stories give interest and depth to a settting. I was reminded of this when I recently watched Firefly on DVD. Not knowing Book's history, not knowing why Inara got off the companion fast track--this was better than being told in a couple of throw-away lines.
So, I'd characterize my feelings on this matter as intrigued rather than irked.
As for novels, it seems to me that FR novels are dealing almost exclusively with the current time period. Still, there's always the possibility that more information will come out in one form or another. A game product, online articles, a bawdy tavern ballad--the possibilities are endless!
Actually, I don't have a problem with unanswered questions. When you jump ahead 100 years in the timeline, you're jumping OVER 100 years of history. That can't easily be summarized. We wouldn't WANT it to be dealt with in summary. Untold stories give interest and depth to a settting. I was reminded of this when I recently watched Firefly on DVD. Not knowing Book's history, not knowing why Inara got off the companion fast track--this was better than being told in a couple of throw-away lines.
So, I'd characterize my feelings on this matter as intrigued rather than irked.
As for novels, it seems to me that FR novels are dealing almost exclusively with the current time period. Still, there's always the possibility that more information will come out in one form or another. A game product, online articles, a bawdy tavern ballad--the possibilities are endless!
Hopefully one passed down over the intervening years, penned long ago by a certain Waterdhavian noble with a fondness for green. ;)
I suppose there is fun to be had in speculation, yes. :D And as long as it isn't resolved in canon I can have the resolution be whatever I want. XP (It will be sappy and sentimental and involve an almost ludicrously happy ending, because I am fond of happy endings and things going right in the end. Which is strange because I'm always a pessimist in real life. Escapism, I suppose.)
Many things about the Realms have captured my attention, and drawn me back time again. One of those is the feeling that no matter how many stories you do tell and do resolve, there are always a thousand more just waiting around the next corner. On that basis, do I think this tale could be told without losing something integral? Yes, but only if it was given the chance to be told in full, and not as a summary.
However, that is only my own view. The formation of this is likely due to the fact that my experience of the Realms is primarily narratively, rather than through the game. As such, I do accept that my view might be considered a little odd.
When you jump ahead 100 years in the timeline, you're jumping OVER 100 years of history. ... Untold stories give interest and depth to a setting.
Seems like I've been saying this for months and months, but nobody ever listens to me. Angst, ftw. :p
From a DM's perspective, those 100 years are two great things:
1) a lot of easy-to-use elbow room
2) a huge opportunity to write missing history
One of the big draws for many a Realms Dungeon Master is the chance to get your feet wet in the setting. It's one thing to work your campaign into the setting, another to put in your own non-campaign related pieces to solve the larger mysteries, make sense of unanswered questions and fill in the back story.
People often claim on these forums that all the older Realmslore is dead and useless. What they don't realize is that no longer are all the threads of events and facts of the then-current Realmslore crowding each other in. With one hundred sparsely developed setting years a DM can pick and choose which bits of Realmslore to draw forward in time and develop, and which ones to ignore.
I'm totally diving into Cormyr right now. It's part of the setting I know a lot about and it's hard to stay focused on my own Fourth Edition campaign and what the players are doing in Suzail when it's so easy to go off on tangents about a slew of questions. Where did Ganrahast come from? What was Alusairs's fate? Cormyr's King is bound by laws, so what laws are on the books? Anything that might put the King in a bind? What was the composition of Sembia's armies when they fought Cormyr? How far did each nation advance into the other's territory, etc...?
In my opinion the questions posed by the one hundred year jump are every bit as fun and interesting to me as questions posed by the original grey boxed set.
So, I'd characterize my feelings on this matter as intrigued rather than irked.
I think the difference here, honey, is that you have an active part in shaping the Realms. Lowly Dookies, like I, do not.
However, that is only my own view. The formation of this is likely due to the fact that my experience of the Realms is primarily narratively, rather than through the game. As such, I do accept that my view might be considered a little odd.
It's not. I'm primarily a reader--haven't played the game, itself, in years. But when there is no true depth about the world you are playing in, it takes away from the meaning.
Seems like I've been saying this for months and months, but nobody ever listens to me. Angst, ftw. :p
My man, I'm not against keeping some mystery to things, but give us something. As I stated above, there is no true depth to anything anymore.
So, I'd characterize my feelings on this matter as intrigued rather than irked.
I think the difference here, honey, is that you have an active part in shaping the Realms. Lowly Dookies, like I, do not.
Did you just call Elaine Cunningham "honey"!? Jeeze man show a little respect! And its not like the authors can just do whatever they want, it has to be checked and approved by the designers, and the marketing team, and all that jazz.
Did you just call Elaine Cunningham "honey"!? Jeeze man show a little respect! And its not like the authors can just do whatever they want, it has to be checked and approved by the designers, and the marketing team, and all that jazz.
Yes, I did. And by calling her "honey" it shows I do have respect. I could have called her "poopy-butt" or "booger-swiggle" otherwise.
But I didn't.
As far as I am concerned, Elaine has taken a far more dedicated role with these things than the other authors and--far more importantly--a more personal role. She doesn't come in here as someone--at least not to me--who believes herself high and mighty. I can respect that.
Damn I cant post a LOLCAT, anymore. Dumb forum made me post something...
Seems like I've been saying this for months and months, but nobody ever listens to me. Angst, ftw. :p
Listening to you and agreeing with you are two different things. I always listen to you Misc, even if I almost never agree with you.
In my opinion the questions posed by the one hundred year jump are every bit as fun and interesting to me as questions posed by the original grey boxed set.
Excellent, I am glad you feel that way. However, the questions that you have described as being interesting, undefined and mysterious are framed by existing Realmslore. Before you know what questions are left, you have to have at least some questions answered. How would you know what Cormyr is? Or that Alusair is someone about whose fate you might be asking? You need to tell stories and give out information before people can start asking those questions. So where is the balance point between giving enough "elbow room" and having enough material there to pose these questions?
I don't know. I will say that first and foremost. I will also say that I do not believe that the current balance is right. Instead of gaps in the histories that provoke interest, for me, I see chasms that don't really give me enough of a place to start asking questions. That may be my own problem, but as a scientist I don't often feel like the questions won't come for lack of information. The problem is usually too many possibilities that fit the evidence I have.
This is why I would like to see more of these stories told.
Yes, I did. And by calling her "honey" it shows I do have respect.
I'm sure you do have respect for her (and all the other authors) but unfortunately you did screw up dook.
I've been all over the place and I've yet to find anywhere (in the States) where you can get away with calling a woman that unless you're engaged to her, married to her or are her father, uncle or grandfather.
Otherwise it's a disparaging remark, no matter how well intended. In the interest of continuing the great opportunity of chatting with the likes of Elaine Cunningham, let's treat her and all the authors as equals, all right?
Use their names, that's what they're there for.
(I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank my 7th Grade English teacher Mr. Schultz for teaching me the proper uses and spellings of their, they're and there.)
let's treat her and all the authors as equals, all right?
Telling Dookie to treat the authors as equals is probably not a good idea! All things considered I guess he was being polite, compared to some of the comments hes mades to others.
Did you just call Elaine Cunningham "honey"!?
You're just jealous nobody calls you 'honey', pumpkin.
Btw, I don't know personally a lot of the authors, but the few I met/heard of are all passionate about the Realsm, or at the least caring of it.
I think we need stay aware that everyone who works on the Realms seeks to keep it intersting and fun. Not everyone's ideas will please everyone, but that's the nature of the game.
In then end, I feel that everyone who comes to these boards to particpate is worhy of some respect, whether they are Elaine, Paul, Rich, Eric, or anyone else.
Gomez
A well-crafted fantasy setting gives you the sense that you CAN make connections like this, that there are hidden stories worth discovering. Good game design deliberately leaves room for exploration and discovery. I don't think you have to write novels set in the Realms to appreciate untold stories. As Mr. Miscellany pointed out, DMs are also storytellers who fill in the blanks. So are their players. And so, for that matter, are readers. Referring back to Firefly, I'm sure most Browncoats have their own theories about the Shepherd's mysterious background, and what might have prompted Innara to take up with the crew of Serenity. A well-drawn character is not handed to readers/viewers like open book, all parts labled for easy disassembly . The attempt to understand what makes a character tick is what draws people into the story and makes the characters seem real to them.
And now, a few words about the other topic under discussion.
I graduated from college at the age of 20 and started teaching in a boarding academy a few days after I turned 21. The older students were only two or three years younger than me. Some of them started calling me "ec" because "Mrs. Cunningham," the required form of address, was both too cumbersome and, well, just plain odd. It stuck. I've come to prefer ec for online interaction; it adds the sort of "Sie/du" distinction the English language lacks, yet it's friendly and informal, and, best of all, easy to type.
My point, and I do have one, is that it is possible to address someone who doesn't fall into the "du" catagory in an informal manner without showing disrespect. If you have any question about what might be appropriate, "ec" works just fine.
Interesting tidbit about Evereska's founding ec...
You're just jealous nobody calls you 'honey', pumpkin.
Well you did call me Pumpkin!
Its a start any way.
My point, and I do have one, is that it is possible to address someone who doesn't fall into the "du" catagory in an informal manner without showing disrespect. If you have any question about what might be appropriate, "ec" works just fine.
Good to know! ec it is! and i think its great thet you and some of the other writers participate in the conversations around here, although its been awile since Rich Baker has graced us with his presence. I need to get to work on that summon Rich Baker ritual...
With respect to the matter in question, I am actually in agreement. Almost all people who interact with a setting become storytellers within it. I think that whether that storytelling takes place as a DM, a player or a reader it, effectively, doesn't matter. I also agree that a character does not have to be disected and presented in totality to be well drawn or the source or basis for speculation.
What I do feel is that introducing new stories, whether in sourcebook, magazine article, novel, or forum post, by telling old ones does not preclude such questions but actually facilities them.
a well written source always holds the possibility of posing more questions than it answers. I have just, this afternoon, finished reading Shield of Weeping Ghosts by James P. Davis. At this point my brain is pretty much melting with unanswered questions, story ideas and wild speculations that I would not have had before I had read the novel in question. This is a concrete example of what I am attempting to describe.
I dunno, Misc agreed with her, so I'm not sure you could get any more Auto-Wrong than that.
True, so....
I'm sure you do have respect for her (and all the other authors) but unfortunately you did screw up dook.
I've been all over the place and I've yet to find anywhere (in the States) where you can get away with calling a woman that unless you're engaged to her, married to her or are her father, uncle or grandfather.
Funny. I live in Chicago and call every girl I know "honey" for some reason or another. I'm not married, engaged, or a relative to any of them (minus my sis, of course). And none of them feel insulted by it--in fact, the majority feel endearment.
Either your "all over the place" doesn't include Chicago, or you and/or those you surround yourself with simply lack the charm and personality to deliver such a word without coming off like a chauvinistic male. I'll assume the latter. It is done quite commonly around here--and not done to insult.
I'll grant that "EC" may see it in your view, but I've already stated that it wasn't disrespectful. I'm not going to sit around and "poo-poo" about it if she feels different. She is simply a human being and deserves no more or less respect than any other living on this planet, regardless of what she happens to do for a living.
Of course, Elaine, no disrespect intended.
I'll grant that "EC" may see it in your view, but I've already stated that it wasn't disrespectful. I'm not going to sit around and "poo-poo" about it if she feels different. She is simply a human being and deserves no more or less respect than any other living on this planet, regardless of what she happens to do for a living.
Of course, Elaine, no disrespect intended.
None taken. IMO, it's a non-issue. But since there seemed to be some confusion as to what might be an appropriate mode of address, I suggested one that I'm accustomed to and prefer.
But mostly, I'd just like this discussion to go away. Quite frankly, it freaks me out a little. IMO, discussion on a FR forum should focus on the Realms, not the people who post in the forum.
So. Please, carry on with the discussion of Realms history.
Lets talk about the Real History of the Realms. I know Ed came up with the Realms as a kid, but what was the first thing actually published? I know he did some stuff in early issues of Dragon, anything that predates that, that anybody knows of?
Id love to read some of those original stories he wrote.
I recall reading somewhere that the Hin and Gnomes see the next major age of Faerun as being run jointly by them... I'm still looking forward to that...
Is that after the elves go extinct?
Not likely. In general, Hin and Gnomes don't commit atrocities, unlike those pointy eared evil personifications of vileness, the elves, where its every other damned one of them.
You don't need to be in the limelight to be running things. After the recent discussions about them I have begun sketching out a joint history of the hin and gnomes that focusses around them both using their magical and mechanical abilities to forge hidden communities pretty much everywhere they can get away with it (and a couple of places they probably can't) from where they can pull more than a few strings attached to various mercantile and political factors.
Overall, I wouldn't be too worried. We're talking tiny folk here. What are the gonna do, headbutt people in the nads when they unleash their "wrath"?
I'm sure the Zhents over at Darkhold thought that too when they first tried to overrun Corm Orp... I bet that was a nasty suprise.
Don't worry. Our second attack was a great success; funny what the Spellplague's ravages did to Corm Op's defenses. Poor little insects didn't know what hit them.
Of course he's leaving out all those other attacks that occurred between the seizure of Darkhold and the Spellplague...
Those weren't attacks; they were training exercises for the greenhorns. But, leave it to the halflings to overestimate their own abilities.
Yeah, right... just like that whole Clone thing was just a wardrobe malfunction, rather than someone profoundly messing with your greatest magics...
That damn Simbul has too much plot armor. I couldn't retaliate. Though in hindsight, her actions set up the events which allowed me to avoid Spellplague-ification, whereas she herself is now a shell whose only glory comes in spoonfeeding Elminster his applesauce. Also, I never denied my Clone Wars incident was anything other than the interference of a Mystra-loving harlot who goes DBZ at every opportunity.
Gods, no. I wouldn't want anyone who was intimate with the Nemesis, which, incidentally, is not only all Seven of the Sisters, but also 35% of Toril's population.
Though with my seat of power once again secure, perhaps I should begin courting once more. Hmmm.... where's Liriel Baenre?
I don't think many women at all have been intimate with Fzoul, at least judging by that mustache of his... or were you talking about some other Nemesis who's gotten the better of you over the years?
You missed the far-too-obvious Elminster reference.
And I always win in the end. I have the tyrannical might of the 4E design team on my side. *laughs maniacally and torches Corm Op*
Right, gotcha. Don't think we can't see the obvious "I asked her out, but she said no, so now I'm going to insult her and her goddess every chance I get to play it off like I never actually cared" thing going on with you.
I'm giving my first official "LOL" to that comment.
And I always win in the end. I have the tyrannical might of the 4E design team on my side. *laughs maniacally and torches Corm Op*
What? You going to start "smiting" people now?
But, no..... Let's just face it. These forums have fallen into a degenerate state.
Though in hindsight, her actions set up the events which allowed me to avoid Spellplague-ification, whereas she herself is now a shell whose only glory comes in spoonfeeding Elminster his applesauce.
I am yet unsure who is spoonfeeding whom.
Gomez
On topic Grand History is full of Pre-Spellplague Lore...
though one would stand a better chance to find grand history of the realms over lost empires
www.nobleknight.com is a friend...
Let's be realistic about this, though. Certain people here tend to bring a good deal of trolling...
Lets be clear: I don't troll.
...driving threads off-topic, or (to say it kindly) pure threadcrapping.
My dear, I perfected the art. But that was back when I was an exception to the rule and not one of the many. Back when there was some substance to this place, my interjections were either ignored, only briefly pursued, or came at a time when a thread had already crapped out by itself.
That's not to say I never participate constructively, but I need a topic that I am interested in and with some intelligent debate taking place. Neither seems to be at a peak these days--for me or many others, it seems. Thus, you get the current environment.
On both my point and on topic: With 4e, Realmslore is pretty much nonfunctional in the game anymore.
if you want the boards to be or feel a certain way, then it's crazy to post things that are intended as nonsense, thread-derails, or just bitching in order to bitch. In other words, if you dislike the "degenerate" state of the boards, don't bring things here that contribute to that state.
+1 for honesty.
+1 for truth.
+1 for pointing out the obvious (I mean come on, anyone who constantly masks profanity and then whines that the forums have fallen into a "degenerate state" so they can't get the "intellectual discourse" they supposedly want so badly is being a hypocrite).
That's a total of +3, ftw.
On both my point and on topic: With 4e, Realmslore is pretty much nonfunctional in the game anymore.
I can sort of see where you're coming from, but ultimately I don't think that's a true statement.
Jumping ahead 100 campaign years pushed people to start new campaigns and put a lot of distance between the body of Realmslore we know and the setting as it exists now. The RPGA guidelines and the seeming attitude of WotC (look forward, writers and game designers, not back) gives the impression Realmslore should take a back seat too.
Thing is, we don't know that players and DMs stopped being interested in the Realms for the sake of the Realms. There's nothing in the FRCG or FRPG that says, "STOP! Don't look back or you and your game are doomed to failure!"
Perhaps you mistakenly believe a relative paucity of new Realmslore means everyone's campaigns must be dull and uninteresting (i.e., not Realmsian enough)? If so, I don't think you've considered what it was like twenty years ago for DMs when they had just the grey box.
But unlike back then, DMs and players in this day and age have the grand opportunity to access the massive backlog of extant Realmslore (most of it perfectly useable in the 4E Realms, incessant misinformed memes notwithstanding) through online resources, in bookstores, through friends and family and FLGSs (not all of whom have stopped carrying 3E Realms books).
In other words, the Realms, even as presented in the FRCG, are still a very interesting a subject.
Lastly, the meat and potatoes of Dungeons and Dragons for players has always been about making interesting characters, battling monsters with sword and spell, finding treasure and winning the day.
For DMs it's always been about creating those encounters, knowing the game rules, providing a lively bunch of NPCs and building a story arc for everyone's mutual enjoyment.
The ability of the Forgotten Realms to enhance the core experience for players and DMs who choose to set their campaigns in it simply has not gone away.
I sense an Argument er i mean discussion brewing...
That would be a good thing. The lack of really meaty discussions recently (and I do mean discussions not flamewars) on Realmslore and General is one of the reasons I have been posting less. I have started a couple of threads and participated others but I no longer feel the gnawing interest to see what "today's topic" is on these forums. And that change is due to the forums, not due to a change in myself.
I can sort of see where you're coming from, but ultimately I don't think that's a true statement.
Terrifyingly, I do actually agree with most of what Misc is saying here (I know, how could this happen?!). I do not think that there is anything in the text of the published books that suggests that any less attention should be paid to previous edition material (though I would argue that the phraseology used in parts of the FRCG does encourage this view).
I would also agree that the the apparent attitude of WotC and the RPGA are that Realmslore is placed strongly in its subserviant role and is merely a tool.
Thing is, we don't know that players and DMs stopped being interested in the Realms for the sake of the Realms. There's nothing in the FRCG or FRPG that says, "STOP! Don't look back or you and your game are doomed to failure!"
Well, no we don't. The statement, however, has no meaning because we don't know that players and DMs didn't, either. We don't know what players and DMs are interested in the Realms for because there are no collected statistics or surveys that approach the matter, as far as I know.
We can only really speak on the basis of anecdotal evidence. My own experience of the gaming groups I am a part of has suggested that people's resurgent interest in the Realms (and there has been some, so well done Wizards) has been primarily as a place where mechanical elements can be mined out for use in new character creation (not so well done Wizards) and not in the "Realms for the sake of the Realms". The picture on the boards is a bit more mixed and hopeful, however, even if most new requests are on the basis of "for my game I would like..." rather than "I have been interested in X for a while...".
I do not believe that the lack of new Realmslore means that people's campaigns will be dull and uninteresting because I have learned that no matter how little information there is on a subject a good DM will always supply something interesting and fun. I do believe, however, that the relative paucity of new Realms lore does devalue the setting as a thing of interest and discussion in and of itself. DMs twenty years ago were able to run wonderful games with the information in the grey box. Were they not slightly more unlikely to discuss with players and friends the nature of the world itself? Twenty years have passed and as such what the Realms are used for has changed, to suggest that this step backwards can be taken without cost is, I think, in error.
But unlike back then, DMs and players in this day and age have the grand opportunity to access the massive backlog of extant Realmslore through online resources, in bookstores, through friends and family and FLGSs (not all of whom have stopped carrying 3E Realms books).
And 2E books? and 1E? With the cessation of PDF distribution on top of these changes it is harder to gain access to Realms corpus. The city in which I live is one of the 20 largest in the UK. Yet FLGSs stock a bare minimum of 4E books and even fewer stock 3E material (2 stores in a city of a quarter of a million people). WotC should be making it easier for people to have access to this information, not harder.
In other words, the Realms, even as presented in the FRCG, are still a very interesting a subject.
Indeed, but anyone interested in that subject will run out of avenues to pursue it very quickly. And I say that as someone who is a subscriber and thus has the benefit of DDI.
The ability of the Forgotten Realms to enhance the core experience for players and DMs who choose to set their campaigns in it simply has not gone away.
I am not going to challenge the assertion that the Realms can still enhance the experiences of players and DMs. I will challenge any assertion that it remains the same for other people who have enjoyed it in the past.
Terrifyingly, I do actually agree with most of what Misc is saying here (I know, how could this happen?!).
Don't mind me, I'm just getting back into my chair after having fallen right out of it.
I do believe, however, that the relative paucity of new Realms lore does devalue the setting as a thing of interest and discussion in and of itself. DMs twenty years ago were able to run wonderful games with the information in the grey box. Were they not slightly more unlikely to discuss with players and friends the nature of the world itself?
A logical deduction. But not one, I think, that fits with experience.
Speaking for myself (the anecdotal, as it were) I can say that as soon as the Realms hit the shelves I was all over it. So were (soon to be) friends of mine from Junior High. We ran many campaigns in it, we read it, we talked it and we wondered about all the missing pieces.
I believe this was because the way the setting was portrayed was just so damn interesting. It laid a foundation and all but dared you to explore it and fill in all the missing passageways you knew had to be there. That WotC chose to make the Forgotten Realms (and not Greyhawk or Dragonlance) the setting for 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons only fed the hunger for more lore in all of us.
What was for the DM's eyes and what was for the players eyes was certainly a more strict subject back then, but that sure didn't keep people from talking Realms. Greenwood wisely wrote from his unreliable narrator style back then too, this strategy predicated on the idea players would have a look at as much as they could
It's my belief that my personal experiences were mirrored by most other players over a fourteen year period and this is borne out by the type and nature of discussions one could find on the nascent bulletin boards and AOL message lists of the early internet that discussed the Forgotten Realms.
Some of the players who enjoyed the setting (i.e., gaming in it and reading novels about it) and participated in those discussion lists became the game designers we know today. They did the research (and were properly credited for it) that led to Realms products absolutely chock full of lore (see the list of credits from the 1997 book Lands of Intrigue, for example).
Without belaboring you further: this is why I look down on notions of an "us or them" distinction between people who enjoy the setting through novels only and people who play D&D in it. This phenomena (such as it actually exists) came about in my opinion in very late 2nd Edition and early 3rd Edition, when a new wave of Realms fans came to the setting and didn't themselves fully appreciate or understand how the setting had grown into the lore laden monster so many of them had discovered (and would come to appreciate so greatly), much less how the first generation and a half of Realms fans devoured all information about the setting because such was initially scarce and the size of the setting and the passage of time in it always meant there'd be need for more.
Twenty years have passed and as such what the Realms are used for has changed, to suggest that this step backwards can be taken without cost is, I think, in error.
You say what the Realms is used for has changed over twenty years. That statement begs the dual questions how and what? That is, I'm not seeing "the cost" as you put it.
And 2E books? and 1E? With the cessation of PDF distribution on top of these changes it is harder to gain access to Realms corpus. The city in which I live is one of the 20 largest in the UK. Yet FLGSs stock a bare minimum of 4E books and even fewer stock 3E material (2 stores in a city of a quarter of a million people). WotC should be making it easier for people to have access to this information, not harder.
Let me start by saying I agree with you that one's ability to grab hold of the whole body of Realmslore is more difficult than before, as any serious collector will tell you (I've done my share of Sunday/Last Day of Gen Con haggling; I know what it's like). This will only become more true as time goes by and rare, quality books disappear for good (and go up in price).
Being desirous of clarity, I wish to make clear that my initial point wasn't predicated on the notion that new-to-the-setting players and DMs must have full access to the entirety of Realmslore (or even a majority of it) in order to gain some additional benefit and enjoyment from knowledge of the setting.
Rather, my point was simply 1) that this information exists and is of quality, and 2) people twenty years ago didn't have access to its equivalent.
Also, you seem to only be pointing out where one can't get Realmslore, while failing to also list where one can.
Readily available source of older lore do exist. Where I live in the Bay Area (San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose --all in California), there are many used bookstores. The Bay Area isn't unique in this regard. Visit other states like Oregon, Washington, Colorado....for any marginal urban area the same is true. Have a look through these bookstores and you'll find a legion of old Realms novels, just waiting to be bought on the cheap. That's Realmslore. Likewise with used sourcebooks, from all three previous editions of the game.
Once can visit websites for these bookstores or go to amazon.com and buy old used Realms books. If you don't want to spend money, visit the Previous Editions Downloads page for free copies of classics like the Volo's Guides.
Speaking of the WotC website: It also includes the Forgotten Realms Archive, which has plenty of quality content that never saw print in any sourcebook.
In my opinion Wizards of the Coast doesn't need to reprint the older lore; it's out there already. Thus there is no great burden of difficult access for the non-collector who wants to learn more about the Realms.
Indeed, but anyone interested in that subject will run out of avenues to pursue it very quickly. And I say that as someone who is a subscriber and thus has the benefit of DDI.
For new Realmslore, you're right. We don't have all that much. But as I stated above, one can go backwards.
I will challenge any assertion that it remains the same for other people who have enjoyed it in the past.
Limiting my response to just me: of course things have changed! For everyone! And plenty to be annoyed with too. No matter how hard the game designers foolishly try to stretch the setting like taffy, things are still connected. The path backwards isn't blocked or broken.
I firmly believe the setting still has the capacity to bring enjoyment to those who like it for the lore alone, but (and we've been down this road before in other discussions) it will take time to build the new lore up.
The fact that we have people making posts along the lines of "for my game" is a good sign. That's proof right there that people are playing in and thinking about the Realms. Now as then, it's this core of player-fed interest that will lead to novel sales and a general push for new Realmslore. I believe that fan interest in what wasn't yet known about the setting fed the growth of the Realms in the heyday of 2nd Edition D&D, and it can do so again now.
One can only hope the people at WotC are not so enamored of their love-it-and-leave-it Master Plan for the Realms that they overlook the budding opportunity to make a sale.
No New Novel (in Timeline) after "The Grand History of Realms" ?
Please people lets not rehash the same arguements again.
While new fans can play in the world without much issue, those of us that who truly love the lore behind the world itself feel completely deprived--and therefore alienated.
First off: the fact that someone can feel utterly heartbroken at the state of the setting and loose all desire to play in it is something I can't argue with. Feeling are subjective. I can't argue against subjective.
OTOH if we treat your statement(s) as a set of claims, we can try to break them down to better understand them.
1. The phrase "truly love" is a false division, a slanter and it hides a concealed claim.
2. The phrase "those of us that who truly love the lore behind the world itself feel completely deprived--and therefore alienated" is a meme, and a false one at that. One, I might add, that was frequently recycled on these message boards before the changeover to facebook-lite, and also recycled at Candlekeep.com for a time, before the mods wisely put their collective foot down and stopped a few angry people from trying to speak for everyone else on those forums.
Now then, is it true that you personally feel alienated? Sure, I don't doubt it. And I'm sorry you feel that way (honest!). Me, I'm angry with WotC and I have been since the day I sat and watched Rich Baker introduce the concept of the Spellplague at Gen Con.
Is it true other people might feel somewhat like you do (whether they "truly love" the Realms or not)? Sure, it's possible. I've seen some people say it. So have you. In fact I'm convinced there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the 4E Realms in one or more ways.
Are yours and the feelings of some other people proof that all people feel a sense of alienation? No. I don't like what WotC has done, but I don't feel alienated at all. I'm a Realms Dungeon Master. We're made of sterner stuff than that.
Is it plausible you could possibly know of some other method to determine that all people who love the Realms feel as you do? No.
Or are you really implying that anyone who doesn't feel alienated doesn't in fact love the Realms? Yes, that's what I think you're doing, whether you realize it or not.
The danger in using phrases like "truly love' is that such dubious language can make a claim seem plausible when in fact it's not.
Under no circumstances is it true that the absence of qualitative lore means all fans of the setting feel alienated. Nor is it true that one may only be considered to truly love or care for the setting if they feel disconnected from its current form.
It's not that we we're not imaginative enough to create our own storyline's and fill in the gaps--we did that with 3e. But this is a world that had substance and was always creating more. That is now completely gone.
Though it's not true the substance of the setting is completely gone, I think I see where you're coming from here.
For example, I'm running a flavor-filled 4E campaign set right in Cormyr, which relies heavily on the Backdrop: Cormyr article, Volo's Guide to Cormyr and the Knights of Myth Drannor book series. The key item in that list being the Backdrop article from Dragon Magazine (issue #365, July 2008).
Without it, I'd not know who the current Royal Mage is, nor his second in command (the Cormyr entry on pages 104-107 of the FRCG is strangely absent information on Ganrahast and Vainrence). Also, that article bridges the time gap, making it easier for someone like me who knows all the right "what happened?" questions to ask, and who also knows the FRCG answers far too few of those important questions.
So that article helps us to "know" Cormyr better. And there are precious few articles further detailing the Realms, leaving us deprived of that cool sense of knowing the setting.
I could play without this information and just use what little the FRCG has to offer and my campaign would be just fine and just as fun. But I feel better as a DM knowing I have the right lore in place.
Speaking for myself (the anecdotal, as it were) I can say that as soon as the Realms hit the shelves I was all over it. So were (soon to be) friends of mine from Junior High. We ran many campaigns in it, we read it, we talked it and we wondered about all the missing pieces.
The question I posed was, less that perfectly expressed and as such I shouldn't have included it. With the statement that preceded it. I do maintain that the setting in a construction in and of itself is devalued. The logic for this is pretty simple and is based on one assumption and one observation. The assumption is that each source of setting material that exists adds value to the setting. That is it, no product is a zero sum. The observation is one that you and I seem to agree on:
Let me start by saying I agree with you that one's ability to grab hold of the whole body of Realmslore is more difficult than before, as any serious collector will tell you (I've done my share of Sunday/Last Day of Gen Con haggling; I know what it's like). This will only become more true as time goes by and rare, quality books disappear for good (and go up in price).
Do we see where I am going with this? For the setting to lose value in the absolute sense it needs only to have information that was once useful and part of the corpus that is no longer available. This is meets the definition of the word "devalue" that I used in a fairly strict sense. Is this a natural process? I honestly don't know. The maintenance of the information through electronic distribution, storage or by collation and reprinting all suggest themselves as possibilities. These are complicated by the question of profit, does maintaining an electronic distribution cost them more than they would make? Nobody who actually knows is likely to answer, I suspect. To a degree the answer doesn't actually matter to me as this is not the avenue that was explored. The important question for me is "Has the path chosen by WotC either hastened or imposed this devaluation?" I think it has, for the reasons previously outlined.
You say what the Realms is used for has changed over twenty years. That statement begs the dual questions how and what? That is, I'm not seeing "the cost" as you put it.
You have, in fact, laid the groundwork for answering you own question in the paragraph before
This phenomena (such as it actually exists) came about in my opinion in very late 2nd Edition and early 3rd Edition, when a new wave of Realms fans came to the setting and didn't themselves fully appreciate or understand how the setting had grown into the lore laden monster so many of them had discovered (and would come to appreciate so greatly)
The use of the Realms changed because those people arrived and gained different experiences and formulated different expectations of the setting because of what it was then not what it was initially. It is for that reason that I don't expect newcomers for 4E to react to the setting in the same as I do, as one of the late-2E-early-3E people. People, including yourself, have drawn parallels between the current release and the grey-box, and I think you are right. In the amount of setting information it may well resemble the original release. This is likely exciting to DMs and players alike, all of those unknowns at the edge of the map.
A return to a grey-box like situation is, however, not like the first time it was done because (as pointed out in my 20 years comment) of the people who arrived later and to a fuller world. The cost I was speaking of was the cost to those people. Of whom I am one.
Being desirous of clarity, I wish to make clear that my initial point wasn't predicated on the notion that new-to-the-setting players and DMs must have full access to the entirety of Realmslore (or even a majority of it) in order to gain some additional benefit and enjoyment from knowledge of the setting.
And being desirous of clarity I too wish to make clear that my point isn't predicated on whether new players or DMs can gain "some additional benefit and enjoyment", because the point is so obvious it doesn't even need to be discussed. To construct an argument against it you would have to suggest that either you need all Realms material to enjoy the setting. Preposterous. Or that there is some lower limit, below which the same applies. Also dafter than a weasel on nitrous oxide. Now we have established that neither of us is attemping to make this erroneous point, we can get on with the real meat of the matter.
However, the fact that enjoyment can be derived from almost any amount of Realmslore does not begin to lay the groundwork for an argument of why a loss of such should not be opposed. A loss of Realmslore should be opposed. And I do oppose it.
Readily available source of older lore do exist.
Oh, I agree there are many places to get Realms materials. I would suggest it may be a little harder to manage outside the continental US though. Between the years of 1998 and 2005 I spent up to three months of the year in the US, mostly in the New England area. I saw more D&D material there than I have ever seen here. Oddly, the US was actually where I discovered 3E. As you point out, sites like amazon and ebay are pretty good for the Realmslore hunter, however, how much easier (and cheaper in some cases) would it be for the average hunter if WotC supported a back-catalogue of its own products? Either through third party retail or direct electronic sales. It may present varying degrees of difficulty to the collector and non-collector alike but by shifting that task onto the shoulders of the collector rather than presenting the materials themselves does send a message, even if it is an unintended one.
For new Realmslore, you're right. We don't have all that much. But as I stated above, one can go backwards
Indeed, and as we seem to agree, one can go backwards... to a portion of the originally existing material, and for now. How long will that state of affairs last?
I firmly believe the setting still has the capacity to bring enjoyment to those who like it for the lore alone, but (and we've been down this road before in other discussions) it will take time to build the new lore up.
And I believe that the discontinuity that means this time is required should never have existed. Different strokes.
Now as then, it's this core of player-fed interest that will lead to novel sales and a general push for new Realmslore. I believe that fan interest in what wasn't yet known about the setting fed the growth of the Realms in the heyday of 2nd Edition D&D, and it can do so again now.
I would be interested to see your sources on both of those because those are some pretty big statements.
Dude... this is SO not helpful, to anyone. In fact, it comes across as more than a little douchey - and I think someone needs to tell you that because you seem oblivious.
I appreciate the fact that you feel I came off too harsh, but from where I'm sitting the sort of "us or them" divisive statements like Dookie's are far, far less helpful to this community.
Also, I'm not a noob to these forums. Truth is I'm a very old Troll that's so far proven impossible to kill (Lord Karsus' attempt pre-forum changeover notwithstanding). I pick my fights when I feel it's important.
This is important.
When addressing an argument based primarily on feelings, emotions, or personal tastes, using logic and rationality to peel things apart never works and it usually just pisses people off. And I think these boards need a little less of that.
So we abandon logic and rationality whenever it might piss someone off? What?
Look, I very clearly indicated I recognized how Dookie felt and that those feelings were valid. I'm also not sure why you felt it necessary to remind me about the concept of subjectivity. I talked about these things in my previous post, in case you missed it.
What you seem to be overlooking is that Dookie didn't talk only about how he felt. Rather, he presumed to talk about how all of us felt. He tapped into a truism, i.e., forum discontent over the Spellplague.
The fact remains this is not enough to conclude how we all feel. The feelings caused in the aftermath are deeply personal. That and he doesn't know me. Therefore, he doesn't get to talk about me as though he does. This, again, I illustrated in detail in my previous post.
I could have ripped him to shreds and flamed him to a crisp. But instead I chose to use the best, least aggressive method (logic and rational thinking) to demonstrate why it's not OK for someone to speak for the entire Forgotten Realms community.
If that still ends up pissing someone off, tough. I don't have a problem standing up for myself and frankly you shouldn't have a problem with it either.
Nope, sorry. It's Pretendy Fun Times Games.
I prefer Troll Guide: The Return, but to each his or her own.
The great danger in lengthy discussions such as these is that it's easy to lose focus on just what we're talking about. So I'll proceed with care.
I want to ask questions and provide commentary on many of your statements, Illuvrien, but that will take time. I can however answer your last question first:
I would be interested to see your sources on both of those because those are some pretty big statements.
You may start with 30 Years Of Adventure, A Celebration of Dungeons & Dragons. The Forgotten Realms section on pages 75 through 85 is quite informative.
Although repeated numerous times throughout, the spirit of Don Daglow's statements about the game (found on page 86) are indicative of its capacity to inspire and the positive future I see for it and for the Realms.
My belief in the future growth of the setting is based on this and on simple faith in the Forgotten Realms. I can't (and won't) qualify it more than that.
You're a scientist, yes? I trust you must know a great deal about faith. :P
************
Please return discussion to the topic of the thread, or it may need to be closed.
erdana; color:#000000">
So we abandon logic and rationality whenever it might piss someone off? What?
Look, I very clearly indicated I recognized how Dookie felt and that those feelings were valid. I'm also not sure why you felt it necessary to remind me about the concept of subjectivity. I talked about these things in my previous post, in case you missed it.
erdana; color:#000000">Indeed you did. But you attempted to use “logic and rationality” to express your own subjective views. As is, the girl is correct.
erdana; color:#000000">
What you seem to be overlooking is that Dookie didn't talk only about how he felt. Rather, he presumed to talk about how all of us felt. He tapped into a truism, i.e., forum discontent over the Spellplague.
erdana; color:#000000">No. I did not. Per my own words:
erdana; color:#000000">“those of us that who truly love the lore behind the world itself feel completely deprived”
erdana; color:#000000">Key emphasis “those of us”.
Perhaps I should have been more clarified with an "as is". Regardless, it wasn't a point to argue simply to argue over.
erdana; color:#000000">
I could have ripped him to shreds and flamed him to a crisp.
erdana; color:#000000">No. No, you couldn’t. You could do so as much as I could. Which is why I offered you the deal. I think that both of us know we aren’t going to be killed on these boards—you’d be forced to show colors you don’t want to and I would walk right into your trap.
erdana; color:#000000">And, from your own mouth, you stated you have been “trolling” these boards for some time. Excuse does not override confession.
erdana; color:#000000">
If that still ends up pissing someone off, tough. I don't have a problem standing up for myself and frankly you shouldn't have a problem with it either.
erdana; color:#000000">And I don’t have a problem with standing up and bringing some illogical and irrational thought to this place either. If it happens that some people get pissed off because they can’t logically or rationally understand that, so be it.
---
So, let's jump back to the last relevant post in this thread: the fact that the 4e time line remains true to what was previously established in 3e. Does this help at all for those that appreciate the previous time line?
For me? It will take a long while before it has any significance.
On both my point and on topic: With 4e, Realmslore is pretty much nonfunctional in the game anymore.
It doesn't have to be.
I use Realmslore in my 4th ed all games the time. All the RPGA Dalelands adventures under my care contain at the last some lore (some more than others, and some of the more fluffy nature got cut, bit it is there, and you can access the old lore and use it).
For instance, I referenced Ed's lore regarding Hunters' Down and Sessrendale for DALE1-5 Hunters' Down. If you have access to that lore, you can add handouts or otherwise provide info that will amek people understand better what is going on (the original handouts I made were unfortunately cut, but the more essential lore is still referenced and summarized).
Not that you should now suddenly rush to play 4th ed or the RPGA (though don't mind if you do). But Realmslore is still very useable in 4th ed. Yes, some people have died, but their children and children's children continue on, and what is known about their parents is still of use. Kira and Dayan Nenthyn build on a lot I learned about Breeandra Nenthyn, and some people (such as Ambreeauta) are still around (though not necessarily in the same manner).
So Realmslore is useful as it can - and does - enrich a game, even after 100 years.
Gomez
It's my bad that such a thing got brought back up and debated again--forgot how touchy that subject actually still was. As is, lets just drop any debate on 3e vs. 4e and resume with something more grounded.
I think we can all agree that it could of been much worse.
So yeah, you want 4e history and such, read the novels. Not much different from 2e or 3e there really.
Hmmm... Misc was actually being downright courteous there for him.
I'm aware. And quite surprised actually.
As it stands though, my own stance is that the Realms are whatever you make of it. It comes down to saying "its not to my tastes now" or "it suits my tastes now", and that's about it. Everything else is justifying an opinion and tending towards the 'utterly subjective' category.
So yeah, you want 4e history and such, read the novels. Not much different from 2e or 3e there really.
Succinct as always. Wish we had more of that around here.
I guess I refine the question again: 2e, 3e and 4e opinions aside, does a hundred year gap in any real history bother anyone?
I guess I refine the question again: 2e, 3e and 4e opinions aside, does a hundred year gap in any real history bother anyone?
Absolutely. That's 100 years with no real history to it. A few snippets =/= 100 years.
I guess I refine the question again: 2e, 3e and 4e opinions aside, does a hundred year gap in any real history bother anyone?
Not necessarily. It all depends what one is planning. Plots may dictate to a point what you will actuallly need to know. The rest is mostly on a perosnal level: what do you want to know so you can use it?
In this specific case, I work on a plotline whose origins are set thousands of years back (and a few events that are set directly before the spellplague kicked in), so the gap does not directly bother me.
There are events in that 100 year gap that I like to know about so as to fill in backgrounds, and I occasionally get that info when asked, but I also am in the relatively luxurious position that on occasion I get to say what actually (canonically) happened, and then I fill that in myself.
So it affects me less, but in other cases, it depends how much you depend on canon lore for your campaign to work.
Gomez
I guess I refine the question again: 2e, 3e and 4e opinions aside, does a hundred year gap in any real history bother anyone?
There's tons of gaps in the history of the Realms, far longer than a century.
My issue with the Spellplague Gap is that its entirely relevant to the games, and has largely been omitted for whatever reason. Now whether that is a good or bad thing depends on the viewer, but speaking only for myself, I think its a bad thing. I think it places a lot of burden on DMs to come up with the history themselves, and while some might enjoy the freedom that offers, it also largely lacks constraints and context to work within to help avoid contradiction and maintain internal consistency. Certainly it suits some play styles very well, but unfortunately for me, mine isn't one of those play styles.
Or fortunately perhaps, if one considers the savings in money its afforded me by not investing in 4e.
My issue with the Spellplague Gap is that its entirely relevant to the games, and has largely been omitted for whatever reason. Now whether that is a good or bad thing depends on the viewer, but speaking only for myself, I think its a bad thing. I think it places a lot of burden on DMs to come up with the history themselves, and while some might enjoy the freedom that offers, it also largely lacks constraints and context to work within to help avoid contradiction and maintain internal consistency. Certainly it suits some play styles very well, but unfortunately for me, mine isn't one of those play styles.
right. I started a new FR game when the books came out last year and I was excited because a lot of stuff that I didnt like from the FR was removed. After maybe three or four months I gave up on the FR as a place to run my game and went back to Greyhawk. Theres so little information on things to be found in the main books on some things (some of them about major people or places or things that are very important!) that I found myself making up about 50% of stuff from games from scratch. I work two jobs and only have one day off a week. When I am commuting (thats when I do most of my planning) I want to spend most of my time thinking about how to make my game memorable not first trying to figure out how things can be plausible/how things happened/whats going on and how it got like that AND THEN trying to make my game memorable.
I want to ask questions and provide commentary on many of your statements, Illuvrien, but that will take time. I can however answer your last question first:...
You may start with 30 Years Of Adventure, A Celebration of Dungeons & Dragons. The Forgotten Realms section on pages 75 through 85 is quite informative.
Well, while I am waiting for the rest of your commentary I shall hunt for the book in question. If nothing else it will prove an interesting read, I am sure.
I guess I refine the question again: 2e, 3e and 4e opinions aside, does a hundred year gap in any real history bother anyone?
It would bother me, both in the real world and in this less than real one, if I was following the ongoing tales/lifetimes of a specific set of people/characters and then they were subject to a 100 year discontinuity. That would, and in fact does bug the heck out of me.
Forgive the previous post. I've looked at the code and see nothing wrong--have no idea why it won't properly quote.
Usually its because of an extra {quote} or {/quote} hiding itself in there somewhere after a block of text was pared down I've found. They can be sneaky little beggars...
Hmmm... Misc was actually being downright courteous there for him.
I'd also like to point out that when he learned we both live in the same general vicinity, Stigger didn't move away as fast as humanly possible, much less post armed guards.
Also a mark in my favor, that.
Yet, not set in the "gap" that was afore mentioned.
ok ok yeah you got me there, there are no books, that i know of, currently set in the gap, nor will there be anytime soon. But all in all i think the gap doesnt seem like as much of a gap as it once did, still a big gap in there yes, but i think once Elminster Must Die! comes out, it will fill in a few blanks as well. Hopefuly well get some more Dragon articles with some history in them, like the Cormyr article, but only focusing on different areas.
I’ve removed content from this thread because baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg...
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Hmmm... Misc was actually being downright courteous there for him.
I'd also like to point out that when he learned we both live in the same general vicinity, Stigger didn't move away as fast as humanly possible, much less post armed guards.
Also a mark in my favor, that.
Well, it helps living in the North Bay...
If such was the case, I would be banned at this point. Besides, I am now saving the finger for those Kodak moments.
the current Blackstaff is awesomely hot and almost as badarse as the first
It's not like you help, Swordboy.
What!? When have i ever!?
It amazes me that anyone can keep track of anything on these forums anymore.
The inmates are running this aslyum.(I hope I spelled that right.
)come on mind you the gnome love thread ought to have been in a different sub forum( the races and what not one).
the EL's undies I always thought was an underwear joke....( I never read it from the begining post anyway).
we could go to the hands of the triad's group forum and yap..... or the sedarine one.
My point is that NOW, things are far different. As 18D ironically pointed out, we are now the inmates running the show. Are we going to try and get civil and start to make this place worth a **** or simply continue doing what we are doing and let it die?
EDIT: BTW, we can easily have said threads closed. It's simply a matter of people asking for it to happen. I vote "yay."
and consider the ORC pm's over those two threads....
EDIT: BTW, we can easily have said threads closed. It's simply a matter of people asking for it to happen. I vote "yay."
Noooo! dont close the Els undies thread! What if i come across more relivant info!
until you do, that thread is nothing more than an Underwear joke.
and crazy train.....
so if someone can tell me how to put a link in my sig.....
or try this:
erdana, 'sans-serif'; color:#000000; font-size:10pt">[ url = web adress for linky ] name of linky [ /url ]
I put spaces in it so it wouldnt post it as a link, but try that with out the spaces.
and make sure to use the [ ], those are important.
People just need to stay on topic, instead of yaking about changing signatures or Elminster's Underwear. That could be discussed in private messages. The real focus here should be the History of the Realms.
So, on topic, are there any new entries to the Timeline? What about Living Forgotten Realms adventures? Do they have anything to add to the Timeline, do they focus on specific dates, or do they just take place some time in the Year 1479? Or has that year been upped? It has been almost 2 years since the setting was released for 4e hasn't it?
What about Living Forgotten Realms adventures? Do they have anything to add to the Timeline, do they focus on specific dates, or do they just take place some time in the Year 1479?
I don't know if we will advance in years, though someone noted that Monument of the Ancients mentioned the year to be 1480.
Gomez
What about Living Forgotten Realms adventures? Do they have anything to add to the Timeline, do they focus on specific dates, or do they just take place some time in the Year 1479?
I don't know if we will advance in years, though someone noted that Monument of the Ancients mentioned the year to be 1480.
Gomez
Ahhhhh, Well the novels will eventually move things forward, right?. I mean the Realms isn't just dead in the water is it?
Who knows these days...
sister plane of Oerth
I belive you are thinking of Aerth.
And you guys are already veering off topic, we just talked about this!
sister plane of Oerth
WTF? As Swordboy states, we are off topic anyway. Send me a PM with directions how to get to a sig (spent a few minutes looking, but this **** isn't all that intuitive and I don't really care) and I'll explain how to post a proper link.
What you have now is so ghetto that it would take two rolls of duct tape, a toaster, and three frozen chickens to compete with.
Ahhhhh, Well the novels will eventually move things forward, right?. I mean the Realms isn't just dead in the water is it?
Oh, I wouldn't entirely trivialize the impact of LFR. Some adventures definitely shake things up a bit or move things forward.
Well, I'm planning to, anyway... now if R&D let's me get away with it :P
Gomez,
LFR Dalelands Writing Director
Yes lets get this back on topic.
Edit: Thank you Gomez!
On a more serious note though, how much impact it has is only as much as WotC allows it to have in the official timeline... which doesn't seem to have any formal methods of updating other than through novels as far as I can tell.
Personally I am waiting for Misc to get back with his response to my points so this thread can get back on topic.
My apologies the long wait. I hope you'll forgive me, but I just don't have the energy for this discussion. I've saved your comments, though, for review and reference if (well, when) new conversations take place.
That way I can better see the underlying assumptions and ideas of whatever it is you're saying when next we find our selves on opposing sides, you know?
On a more serious note though, how much impact it has is only as much as WotC allows it to have in the official timeline... which doesn't seem to have any formal methods of updating other than through novels as far as I can tell.
LFR will likely - at least initially - merely add organisations, NPCs, etc. some of these may have a bigger impact as paragon approachs. Events will get bigger then too, affecting regions. At Epic level, the adventures may have a real impact.
R&D will want to keep things manageable, so you won't quickly see prominent NPCs die or regions blown up. Not that it can't happen, but it won't be done in haste.
Gomez
unless they make it not considered canon
No I have not forgot about your planned assult on Shade, Swordboy.
Knew that one would catch.
---
LFR is there--by all that I see--as a way to see what gamers of the setting are choosing as their characters, what they choose to do with those characters, and, of course, what inspires them most (i.e., where/what/when/how).
In short, a Wizards psych experiment.
No I have not forgot about your planned assult on Shade, Swordboy.
Knew that one would catch.
---
Im still planning it, im just trying to keep it on the downlow. They got spies everywhere!
No I have not forgot about your planned assult on Shade, Swordboy.
Knew that one would catch.
---
Im still planning it, im just trying to keep it on the downlow. They got spies everywhere!
there are spies amongst their spies.
So maybe Silver Sword's assult on Shade will become Cannon. No I have not forgot about your planned assult on Shade, Swordboy. We need to find out who is writing for that Region and 'persuade' them to let him get'em...
Netheril is not a LFR region, but both Pieter (global admin) and I (Dalelands) deal with the Shades.
So how do you want silversword dismembered?
Gomez,
who may, deliberately or not, misinterpreted the question
No I have not forgot about your planned assult on Shade, Swordboy.
Knew that one would catch.
---
Im still planning it, im just trying to keep it on the downlow. They got spies everywhere!
Sure you are.
So maybe Silver Sword's assult on Shade will become Cannon. No I have not forgot about your planned assult on Shade, Swordboy. We need to find out who is writing for that Region and 'persuade' them to let him get'em...
Netheril is not a LFR region, but both Pieter (global admin) and I (Dalelands) deal with the Shades.
So how do you want silversword dismembered?
Gomez,
who may, deliberately or not, misinterpreted the question
Very slowly...
Is there a Vaasa region?
Very slowly...
That should be possible.
Is there a Vaasa region?
No. Adventures can be set in Vaasa through the globals though.
Shawn is the one to talk to, I think. He wrote the adventure for Narfell.
Gomez
But any way back on the topic of History, I was reading up on time travel in the Realms, specifically Time Conduits. Mystryl, the original Mystra, put alot of rules and contingencies into such things, and after Mystryl, who focused more on time than magic, was destroyed and Mystra took over she left the rules of time travel as they were, focusing more on Magic, Im assuming the next Mystra, Midnight, did the same thing. So my big question is with Mystra destroyed now, who oversees such things? My best guess would be Labelas, but Amaunator seems to have a thing for time as well. Or could it be that no ones really governing these Time Conduits any more and Chronomancers can now run rampant through the History of Abeir-Toril?
Selune as the magic now
the only way that we will see another god or goddess of magic will be when Shar( the hells dam that beetch's black heart) admits she made a mistake or admits that Azuth's staff was one of the Imaskarcana
That does not mean everything can happen, but the possibilities are greater, as Mystryl/Mystra is gone.
They still exist throughout one specific period of time though. That period is neigh-untouchable.
But the spellplague years are likely much freeer to travel, and I think the days of thunder may be as well (before the rules were installed). When you time travel, you have to skip several thousands of years if you want to do anything more than watch.
Gomez
I don't think there is a check on time travel now.
That does not mean everything can happen, but the possibilities are greater, as Mystryl/Mystra is gone.
They still exist throughout one specific period of time though. That period is neigh-untouchable.
But the spellplague years are likely much freeer to travel, and I think the days of thunder may be as well (before the rules were installed). When you time travel, you have to skip several thousands of years if you want to do anything more than watch.
Gomez
Amaunator is the deity that holds the portfolio of time... or did, back in the Arcane Age of old Netheril. Mystryl "watched over" the portfolio in the sense that she placed several restrictions on time travel, but Amaunator actually held the portfolio. Mystra's death in 1385 might have changed the rules and/or the portfolio, but even at that time I don't believe she actually held the portfolio itself. It's possible that Amaunator knew of his impending shift into Lathander and allowed Mystryl/Mystra to watch over it as a sort of custodian... perhaps in the same way that Llira watched over Waukeen's portfolios during her brief absence.
Anything before the death of Mystra in 1385 would still be off-limits to change, as Mystra is active. Prior to Mystra's "rules," Amaunator would determine - possibly on a case by case basis, but as a deity of strict law back then it's unlikely that he would allow genuine timeline changes.
Same with the time post-Spellplague when Lathander reverts back to Amaunator. I can't really see him allowing changes to the timeline.
What's the name of that portal (aka plot device) that allows travel from ~1385 to ~1479? If I recall correctly, it's only one-way in order to allow people to bring their favorite characters from 3E into 4E.
I was just thinking about the Dragon deity CHRONEPSIS, didnt he have a connection to time as well? although im not sure he was ever actually worshiped in the Forgotten Realms. I dont see him in the 2e Forgoten Realms Draconomican, of course they dont have Bahamut or Tiamat in there either, go figure.
What's the name of that portal (aka plot device) that allows travel from ~1385 to ~1479?.
They're called "slowtime" portals. Basically malfunctioning portals that move one through time as well as space. See FRCG, page 40.
What's the name of that portal (aka plot device) that allows travel from ~1385 to ~1479?.
They're called "slowtime" portals. Basically malfunctioning portals that move one through time as well as space. See FRCG, page 40.
That's not the portal I meant. Slowtime portals just malfunction and slow down time for the PCs, effectively trapping them (in a sense) until 1479 or whenever the DM wants.
The one I'm thinking of is a specific, named portal that isn't a slowtime malfunctioning "portal" but actually a real gateway portal that's one of the remaining true time conduits. It's in the south, and it's one-way 1385-to-1479.
The one I'm thinking of is a specific, named portal that isn't a slowtime malfunctioning "portal" but actually a real gateway portal that's one of the remaining true time conduits. It's in the south, and it's one-way 1385-to-1479.
That sounds very intersting. That would prove that the Time Conduits no longer follow the same rules after Mystras's death. That was one of the rules that you could only travle back in time, not foward. Maybe that rule as been reversed now?
- ANDRIO'S GATE: The [Vilhon] Reach happens to contain one of Toril's few functioning time gates; a useful tool for bringing characters forward beyond the Wailing Years (1385 DR to 1395 DR) to a more stable time period for campaign play. The time gate is located within Mount Andrus, a volcanic peak within the Orsraun Mountains on Turmish's western frontier. There the time gate has survived millennia despite several volcanic eruptions, shielded from the monstrous heat and the effects of the Spellplague by powerful, and some would say divine, wards. Adrio's Gate is activated by speaking the name of a year as given in the Roll of Years then stepping through the gate's event horizon.
Strange, though... I thought it was only one way. Oh well. More options for DMs, I suppose.
It doesn't imply that the rules for time travel have changed, though. Traveling to a period where Mystryl / Mystra are still alive, you'd still be operating under the rules.
Strange, though... I thought it was only one way. Oh well. More options for DMs, I suppose.
I though that as well. Hmmm. Interesting...
Gomez
That gate was also mentioned in the 2e Netheril Boxed Set:
The final gateway is listed as existing at “..Andrio’s Peak near the garden of Eldath.” A scribe actually misspelled the original place name, which was Andrus, and the garden is a hint to the city of Cedarsproke in the Gulthmere forest of the Vilhon Reach. The time gate has survived inside Mt. Andrus despite several volcanic eruptions, shielded from the intense heat by Mystryl’s magic.
Also 2 other time gates are mentioned:
The first passage that reveals a hint to a time gate’s location states that it “...lies hidden upon the back of the mountains, where the ice and rocks touch the summer sky of Amaunator’s belt.” This is actually a reference to an ancient constellation of Amaunator that appeared in the summer months over the Spine of the World. An adventuring party could still spend many months in the frozen wasteland of the Spine searching for the deep cave that holds the gate, however. The time gate also happens to be the home of an ancient white dragon (who’s greedy enough to allow adventurers to use the gate so long as they pay her something).
The second time gate is “...north of Novularond, shining bright upon Misken’s Peak at Highsummer.” While the Novularond range has been searched repeatedly, adventurers have failed to find the time gate because Misken’s Peak was sheared off by the Great Glacier many centuries ago. The magical portal still exists, but it’s buried beneath hundreds of feet of ice as it’s slowly carried along within the glacier.
Amaunator is the deity that holds the portfolio of time... or did, back in the Arcane Age of old Netheril. Mystryl "watched over" the portfolio in the sense that she placed several restrictions on time travel, but Amaunator actually held the portfolio.
No, Mystryl held the portfolio. Amaunator (in an example of being lawful-stupid) just believed that he was entitled to hold it (due to some stupid punctuation error in some divine contract*) but was wise enough to never try to actually seize the portfolio
*First that and later annother punctuation error lead to the creation of the Cult of the Dragon. They really need better proofreaders in Faerun
Arcane Age:
Amaunator was also occasionally revered as the keeper oftime. This artificial “addition” to his portfolio was due to a mispunctuation in a contract between himself and another deity which stated: “. . .Amaunator shall be responsible for all time. any misrepresentation of his or his followers, If so deemed the fault of Amaunator . . . .” This unnoticed punctuational snarl of commas and periods led to Amaunator considering himself to be in charge of “all time.” Fortunately, he never officially attempted to take over the portfolio, since he wasn’t willing to step on the toes of Mystryl, who was the practical and actual keeper of the timestream.
Interesting stuff indeed. So you could go foward or in the past, as long as you knew how to work it. This gives me all kinds of crazy adventureing ideas!
That gate was also mentioned in the 2e Netheril Boxed Set:The final gateway is listed as existing at “..Andrio’s Peak near the garden of Eldath.” A scribe actually misspelled the original place name, which was Andrus, and the garden is a hint to the city of Cedarsproke in the Gulthmere forest of the Vilhon Reach. The time gate has survived inside Mt. Andrus despite several volcanic eruptions, shielded from the intense heat by Mystryl’s magic.
Also 2 other time gates are mentioned:The first passage that reveals a hint to a time gate’s location states that it “...lies hidden upon the back of the mountains, where the ice and rocks touch the summer sky of Amaunator’s belt.” This is actually a reference to an ancient constellation of Amaunator that appeared in the summer months over the Spine of the World. An adventuring party could still spend many months in the frozen wasteland of the Spine searching for the deep cave that holds the gate, however. The time gate also happens to be the home of an ancient white dragon (who’s greedy enough to allow adventurers to use the gate so long as they pay her something).
The second time gate is “...north of Novularond, shining bright upon Misken’s Peak at Highsummer.” While the Novularond range has been searched repeatedly, adventurers have failed to find the time gate because Misken’s Peak was sheared off by the Great Glacier many centuries ago. The magical portal still exists, but it’s buried beneath hundreds of feet of ice as it’s slowly carried along within the glacier.
See, Silver you can go back it time to defeat the Shades...
;)
No, Mystryl held the portfolio. Amaunator (in an example of being lawful-stupid) just believed that he was entitled to hold it (due to some stupid punctuation error in some divine contract*) but was wise enough to never try to actually seize the portfolio...
Here's one of those times where I'm going to agree and disagree.
Earlier in that exact same source, it also states: "Amaunator would be another likely candidate, since he technically has control of time as well." (p. 32). He was also revered by his faithful, the people of the Realms, as the god of time. One of the elven deities, Labelas Enoreth, also clearly has "time" in his portfolio.
This begs the question, who exactly did Amaunator have a contract with? The only "deity contracts" that we've seen have been the Tablets of Fate, so this must mean Ao. Without even needing to assume that Amaunator was "lawful stupid," a misinterpretation of the Tablets of Fate could have led to a (for lack of a better word) fuzzy portfolio. And not all portfolios need be in the hands of one god anyway.
If Netheril: Empire of Magic is correct for both quotes, what each of us have noted, then it would seem that the portfolio of time was split. Amaunator dealt with the ordering of time (and he was worshipped by the masses for it), Mystryl kept watch over the time conduits (but was not worshipped for the portfolio of time), and other deities like Labelas Enoreth assisted in other ways or in all ways with said portfolio.
Portfolios are curious things, given that multiple deities can hold the same portfolio.
Additionally, in 4E we note that Amaunator's role as the "God of Time" hasn't changed. We can, since Mystryl-Mystra is out of the picture, say that Amaunator has now fully adopted the portfolio and is watching over the time conduits as well. Along with Labelas Enoreth and perhaps others.
Finally, from a practical standpoint, it doesn't really make sense that Mystryl-Mystra would have been the god of time. She was never worshipped for it, so far as we know. Yet Amaunator was worshipped for it. Makes tons more sense that a deity of the Sun would be in charge of time, given that the progress of the sun across the sky is how the earliest peoples marked time. It would make sense for Mystryl-Mystra to control the magic that accesses or creates time conduits, though, and for that she'd have to work with Amaunator and the other deities.
An' that's me story an' ahm stickin' to it!
Earlier in that exact same source, it also states: "Amaunator would be another likely candidate, since he technically has control of time as well." (p. 32). He was also revered by his faithful, the people of the Realms, as the god of time. One of the elven deities, Labelas Enoreth, also clearly has "time" in his portfolio.
Letting yourself be revered as deity of X doesn't make you deity of X until the moment you became etablished/strong enough as deity of X to seize X from the deity actually being deity of X.
If you look at the Faith&Avatars-style write up of Mystral and Aumanator you clearly see time being listed in the portfolio section of Mystryl and not being listed in the portfolio section of Aumanator
Portfolios are curious things, given that multiple deities can hold the same portfolio.
If these two deities belong to the same pantheon, they can not share a portfolio unless on of them does never rise above demigod status
Yet Amaunator was worshipped for it.
But only occansionally. He didn't even have the balls to make it a formal part of his worshipp.
See, Silver you can go back it time to defeat the Shades...
;)
Aye, I could indeed do that, or any one could really as long as they knew the location of a Time Gate and how to operate it, or had a Time Conduit ritual. The problem is, if you go back in time and change something, you just create an alternate timeline and then youd be stuck in that one, the Shades would still be there in the "real" Timeline.
Not sure its too smart to start trying to build anything really concrete from any of the Arcane Age sourcebooks, considering how "inconsistent" (I'm being polite here) a lot of them were...
Excellent point, and completely true. Although the Arcane Age materials were an attempt to "fit" the narrative history of Netheril into 2E rules, it really failed in a multitude of ways. "Inconsistent" really is being polite. Not only are there lore and historical inconsistencies, it also tries to explain epic magic in ways that don't make sense and handwaves away things that were "known" about clerical magic during that era.
For example, if you're a priest of Helm and you time travel to old Netheril, good old Helm doesn't exist in that period. How do you get your spells? Mystryl grants them. How is this possible, considering that neither her portfolios nor her domains could allow such a thing? Handwaving.
And that's just one bizarre thing...
Letting yourself be revered as deity of X doesn't make you deity of X until the moment you became etablished/strong enough as deity of X to seize X from the deity actually being deity of X.
Really? Chauntea is often revered as the Earthmother. Haven't seen Silvanus object.
If you look at the Faith&Avatars-style write up of Mystral and Aumanator you clearly see time being listed in the portfolio section of Mystryl and not being listed in the portfolio section of Aumanator.
Well, here's the problem: so far as I know, you're referring to the only source that suggests Mystryl was the deity that held the portfolio of time. Mystra doesn't hold the portfolio of time in any other 1E, 2E, or 3E source (and yet, Amaunator does in 4E). If she "lost" the portfolio, then to whom did she lose it? Furthermore, the writeups for Mystryl and Amaunator in that same source are hazy: Amaunator is clearly worshipped as the god of time and such worship is not even mentioned for Mystryl. So you have to take that source with a grain of salt, canon-wise, because there's nothing else to back it up.
If these two deities belong to the same pantheon, they can not share a portfolio unless on of them does never rise above demigod status
This only appears to be true in 3E, and only in FR 3E. In 3E core, this "rule" doesn't exist. Some have suggested that the "rule" only exists to explain the blending of pantheons in FR when two cultures meet and clash. And it's not really even necessary given the introduction of spheres and domains, it's just odd.
In any case, if you're going to wave around Arcane Age as the definitive source for this, then it's pretty clearly stated that multiple deities control time. Two of those, Amaunator and Mystryl, are in the same pantheon.
Yet Amaunator was worshipped for it.
But only occansionally. He didn't even have the balls to make it a formal part of his worshipp.
If he's worshipped as the God of Time in old Netheril, even occasionally, that seems formal enough to me. Mystryl just wasn't worshipped in that way, so it makes zero sense to say that she was the goddess of time. It also says in Arcane Age that Mystryl supposedly holds the portfolios of spring, song, creativity and invention. So whatever... lol.
But it would be fair to say that she held the portfolio of Chronomancy by default, given that its a type of magic, at least as it related to Faerun... hence, she could very well be considered to hold the portfolio of time in a lot of respects, as she holds the keys to its manipulations and such. Tad bit convoluted maybe, and it requires a lot of inference, but the argument could be made much more easily for her than it could for Amauanator I think. I'd say that Selune had a stronger argument for being the goddess of time, given that the major Calender of the Realms is based off of lunar cycles rather than solar cycles. I'd go into something about daily timekeeping, but given that it splits pretty even between the two, I'd say it negated both in some respects, so the Calender things gives her the edge.
Brings up an interesting question, though: what if, when Amaunator arose, the Netherese switched from lunar to solar timekeeping? Could explain why Selune so radically diminished in power. And as Mystryl was originally a part of Selune, her affinity for time only pertained to the magical aspects of time. Just some theorizing... but I still prefer Amaunator as the God of Time over Mystryl. I agree about it also making a lot of sense for Selune, theoretically.
Netherese didn't make up that big of a portion of the population of Faerun, just one of the more noteworthy populations, so I doubt they'd have had that much of an impact on her, considering she's worshipped as far away as the Golden Waters.
She is now, but back then it's hard to be sure.
The major theory on her fluctuations in power is that its part of her cyclical nature to do so, at least from what I recall of it. My impression of Amauanator (or however the hells that's spelled) was usually one of a stodgey hidebound old fart who didn't keep current with an evolving society and so got left behind (which is why I really hate his reemergence to be honest), no matter how cool they tried to make him out to be in the BG series. I'd have preferred they kept him dead myself, as it really wrecked the nobility of his sacrifices and actions in those games, and sort of by extension the novels (though I prefer ignoring the existence of those).
Actually, according to Arcane Age, Amaunator "often appeared as a glowing woman dressed in a flowing opalescent dress bearing a balance of the purest gold—an almost translucent gold."
Letting yourself be revered as deity of X doesn't make you deity of X until the moment you became etablished/strong enough as deity of X to seize X from the deity actually being deity of X.
Really? Chauntea is often revered as the Earthmother. Haven't seen Silvanus object.
To what should he object? Chauntea is Toril. Silvanus merely holds sway over the wild parts. The better question would have been why Chauntea doesn't object, given that she actually held his portfolios herself during the arcane age.
Well, here's the problem: so far as I know, you're referring to the only source that suggests Mystryl was the deity that held the portfolio of time.
As opposed to which source saying that Aumanator ever held time prior to finally claiming it in 4e? He didn't per AA:EoM and also didn't per OHG.
Mystra doesn't hold the portfolio of time in any other 1E, 2E, or 3E source
Mystra is not Mystryl.
(and yet, Amaunator does in 4E).
For the very first time. So he saw that it had become ownerless in the meantime and took it for himself. Maybe that helps him overcoming his trauma of wanting to be god of time for so long while Mystryl was the true goddess of time
Well If she "lost" the portfolio, then to whom did she lose it?
Look at the rest of the netherilian pantheon. They all lost dozends of portfolios, many of them unclaimed.
Furthermore, the writeups for Mystryl and Amaunator in that same source are hazy:
No, they are quite clear.
Well Amaunator is clearly worshipped as the god of time
No, he let himself be worhshipped in this role during some occassions, while Mystryl actually owns this role. It's spelled out clearly.
and such worship is not even mentioned for Mystryl.
Except for time being clearly listed under her portfolios.
Well So you have to take that source with a grain of salt, canon-wise, because there's nothing else to back it up.
Except for itself being a canon source that flat out states this (This artificial “addition” [...] Mystryl, who was the practical and actual keeper of the timestream) and OHG as a second source backing the fact that Aumanator did not have the portfolio of time.
WellThis only appears to be true in 3E,
Actually this rule comes from 2e. It's already in F&A.
In any case, if you're going to wave around Arcane Age as the definitive source for this, then it's pretty clearly stated that multiple deities control time.
It flat out states in the netherilian pantheon one deity controlls time while annother deity from time to time pretends to controll time.
WellIf he's worshipped as the God of Time in old Netheril, even occasionally, that seems formal enough to me.
And Talos had himself occansionally worshipped as the deity of destructive magic to take it over from Mystra. Bane tried the same both with magic against Mystra and war against Tempus. Neither worked.
Mystryl just wasn't worshipped in that way,
Which doesn't change the fat that she had it.
Well It also says in Arcane Age that Mystryl supposedly holds the portfolios of spring, song, creativity and invention. So whatever... lol.
So she did. Different times back then.
yadda yadda... canon!...
You're missing the point, so there's not much purpose in continuing this with you.
You're missing the point, so there's not much purpose in continuing this with you.
If you want to simply ignore what's flat out written in the respective sourcebooks then there's really no point in discussing this with you.
You're missing the point, so there's not much purpose in continuing this with you.
If you want to simply ignore what's flat out written in the respective sourcebooks then there's really no point in discussing this with you.
Wow... just wow... and apparently not. I was right, you really don't get it. This is why the boards are the way they are.
Correct me if im wrong but the Mystra who is written up in F&A/F&P isn't the same Mystryl/Mystra from the Netheril years and the Amaunataor written up in F&A isn't the same from the Netheril years. Theres hundreds of years for portfiolios to shift move and around between different people.
This is true, but it rather defeats the point of arguin... er... debating these finer points here. ;)
She is now, but back then it's hard to be sure.
Given that it wasn't all that long ago, she'd have to at least been well on her way towards the region by then. My own guess is that she went with the Illuskans that were in the region (that portal linked town, the name of which just went completely out of my head), which was a pretty damned long time ago as I recall.
Actually, according to Arcane Age, Amaunator "often appeared as a glowing woman dressed in a flowing opalescent dress bearing a balance of the purest gold—an almost translucent gold."
And? Unless you're getting at some sort of enmity with Waukeen for having stolen his wardrobe while he was dead...
This is why the boards are the way they are.
Because of people flat out ignoring what's written black on white in multiple sources just because they don't like it and claiming that their variant is the true canon (which is where it causes distortion instead of just being "well in my realms ...") ?
She is now, but back then it's hard to be sure.
Given that it wasn't all that long ago, she'd have to at least been well on her way towards the region by then. My own guess is that she went with the Illuskans that were in the region (that portal linked town, the name of which just went completely out of my head), which was a pretty damned long time ago as I recall.Actually, according to Arcane Age, Amaunator "often appeared as a glowing woman dressed in a flowing opalescent dress bearing a balance of the purest gold—an almost translucent gold."
And? Unless you're getting at some sort of enmity with Waukeen for having stolen his wardrobe while he was dead...
The Bedine saw him as a woman to, and he was having a thing with Cyric, those crazy gods!
This is why the boards are the way they are.
Because of people flat out ignoring what's written black on white in multiple sources just because they don't like it and claiming that their variant is the true canon (which is where it causes distortion instead of just being "well in my realms ...") ?
Quite frankly, I'm sick to death of accusations and the overwhelmingly poor attitude shown to anyone who dares to question canon, or interpret it somewhat differently. It makes the boards an unfriendly place, as there is no room for discussion and people are more than happy to haughtily tell others "you're wrong!." It becomes a competition of one-upmanship, and who might have the "definitive" or an obscure but "official" published source, so that canon lawyers can slam each other. These boards are an ugly, unwelcoming place because of it. Perhaps some people see one or more of my posts as attempting to do that, as I've sometimes joined in on "here's the source for that" and have sometimes corrected things based on canon. If that's true, if people see one or more of my posts in that way, it's unfortunate but I'm not about to apologize for someone else's feeling or the complete misinterpretation of my intent.
At no time did I intend to create the impression that my interpretation of canon is "true canon," and it is unfortunate that you chose to see my attempts at discussion as trying to do that. The level of snarkiness and outright hostility is what's destroying the boards and it's why a lot of people have left. It's time for people here to reclaim the ability to discuss and interpret canon without getting jumped on. And yes, I said interpret canon.
Some people would like to believe that canon is fact, that it is immutable and it is "true." In the sense of novel canon, that's appropriate to some degree. Authors and readers need stability and a solid understanding of the shared world. It's also appropriate for game canon, but to a far more limited degree. Time and again, Ed Greenwood and others have stated, "this is the way people think things are, it's the best approximation based on what is known." Sometimes sourcebooks speak in first person, sometimes in third person, and people argue about what's "true" until a retcon or a re-interpretation comes along. People argue about what are official sources, what are apocryphal sources, and whether or not it's "okay" to interpret canon that is fuzzy or has inconsistencies. And over the course of several decades there are more than a few inconsistencies, not to mention re-interpretations or outright retcons.
In this discussion, am I ignoring canon or saying that my way is the only "true" canon? Absolutely not. But I do very strongly believe that all canon is interpretable. Some canon is more open to interpretation than other canon. With the Arcane Age sources, there are a lot of inconsistencies with earlier and later material. Even within the set for Netheril, we have things that don't make sense. Lore, and canon, exist for us to think about, discuss, and interpret. My interpretation may be no better than someone else's interpretation, and that's fine. But in the face of rigidity and accusations, or snarky assumptions about my motives, it ends the possibility for discussion (and sometimes, even civility). Unfortunately, that's what the boards have become, and it's to everyone's detriment.
She is now, but back then it's hard to be sure.
Given that it wasn't all that long ago, she'd have to at least been well on her way towards the region by then. My own guess is that she went with the Illuskans that were in the region (that portal linked town, the name of which just went completely out of my head), which was a pretty damned long time ago as I recall.Actually, according to Arcane Age, Amaunator "often appeared as a glowing woman dressed in a flowing opalescent dress bearing a balance of the purest gold—an almost translucent gold."
And? Unless you're getting at some sort of enmity with Waukeen for having stolen his wardrobe while he was dead...
The Bedine saw him as a woman to, and he was having a thing with Cyric, those crazy gods!
Wasn't that Beshaba impersonating "him" there? Don't recall offhand.
...what Therise said...
Here, here! I think Therise just put into words in one posting what I've been trying (and failing) to get at for the last ten years.
In addition to what she said, I'll point out that inconsistencies have always been a part of the Realms. Mending those inconsistencies through cooperative thought exercises has led to new ideas and posibilities about the Realms and its history.
More often than not it is the fans that do the mending; the fans that explore the posibilities.
In my time reading Ed Greenwood's responses to questions about the Realms on the candlekeep.com forums I've also come to learn that much of what we assume is true about the Realms in fact is not.
These two things I've pointed out, when taken together, make a strong argument for not taking (or advocating) everything written about the Realms as set in stone.
Lastly, up until things became Therise vs. Mirtek, I was learning something by following this thread. And I was enjoying myself.
That's not something I've done on these forums in a long time (much of that my fault, I admit, but my point stands).
Can we get back to the interesting and fun talk, please?
No, no informative or interesting discussions for you lot. You shall instead be forced to read page upon page of bickering and maliciousness, with your eyelids glued wide open, and stale cheetos forcefed to you via insidiou machines. Enjoy your stay...
Yes can we keep arguing over what was written by the "unreliable narrator"?
:-p
EDIT: Lets play nice folks...
Speaking of Realms history after the spellplague, did they bother writing anything on the general reaction in the churches to the changes in divine magic or the specific effects on priests who were priests before the Spellplague and the subsequent changes? If they did it's not in the FRCG or FRPG that I can find, and I have a 159-year-old sun elven cleric of Corellon running around in a 4e FR campaign, so it would be useful to know. Or if I have to make something up, that would be useful to know too.
I don't think anything was ever said about divine magic, I was thinking that it still worked during the Wailing Years and that it was Arcane magic that went all screwy, but I guess Divine casters would be out too, since they got their spells from the Weave as well. Of course the Divine casters didn't have to study and prepare spells, they just prayed for them and the gods hooked them up, so I would guess that clerics and other Divine casters had an easier time adjusting.
Yeah, my point of confusion comes from the vastly different way it works in 4e vs previously. At some point there would have been a switch from Rhynneth praying to Corellon for his spells and being granted them, and the 4e way in which a cleric is invested by his church with power(Well, there's that alternate method of your god granting your your initial investiture that they mention in passing in the PHB) and thereafter just has it. And I can't really find anything on the transition, the exact timing or nature of it. Did he have to be re-inducted as priest, did the alternate method happen due to the gods not wanting to have interruptions to their priests abilities to cast spells, did it just get handwaved as 'ok it changed somewhere for some nebulous reason'...
I suspect I'm just going to have to make something up. Considering how badly elves took it up the ass in the transition to 4e, they probably didn't even *consider* the possibility of having an elven, excuse me, eladrin(or any other race likely to live long enough) priest who was a priest before the Spellplague to bother working what would have happened out. Nevermind that Rhynneth isn't even remotely going to be the only one. :P (It amuses me that half his party has probably never even heard of the Time of Troubles, and then he was alive during it. :P)
That reminds me, I need to annoy the DM for the current date and changes to the date. Need to know when Rhynneth needs to celebrate Lateu'quor.
on how after the classes is to go through your lvls, deal with the atribute increases and alter skills and feats as needed...
And if it's an elf you're converting, Rich Baker uses a special tool to bob your character's ears so they look human.
It's true.
Its a horrible fate that awaits those who convert...
sides, I have no clue as to where they are even at.... maybeleft them in the ultima box.....
converted mine though , however I didnt use that.... I just rebuilt them
Rhynneth isn't converted, though. He is, shock and horror, a character created for 4e FR.
...Who happens to have been around longer than all these newfangled changes to magic and such.
But I suppose considering the possibility of a character being from before 1385 DR that didn't end up in 1479 via Plot Device was too much for them or something. Poor Rhynneth. Oh well, I'll make something up.
One thing I'll give 4e's clerics. Rhynneth really should have fallen several decades ago, the way he keeps getting pissy at his god and blaming him for the loss of Evermeet and for his mentor/lover getting destroyed by the Spellplague. :P (He blames himself too, but.)
I remember siting front and center at Gen Con when they told us flat out there was no direct 3E to 4E character conversion possible.
And there still isn’t a direct conversion. The article is only meant to be a rough guideline to port your 3.5e character over to 4e which didn’t work well for me and my cleric of Tyr. Still a fun read...
And Bruce Cordell stands over you until you use the word Cerulean at least three times in your characters write up... of course with the obligatory appearance of some sort of aberration linked to your characters destiny... in a bad, bad, bad way.
Its a horrible fate that awaits those who convert...
I didn't use 'cerulean', but I think I used 'azure' at least twice, but lol cleric of Corellon Larethian guess what colour they wear a lot of.
I think their brains would break at the idea of a character originating in 4e that predates their precious spellplague. :P
I recently did a side by side comprasion of the Forgotten Realms calendar with our Gregorian calendar, and found that the last day of our year is the first day of the Realms calendar, so in the Realms this would be the first day of the new year, so happy Realms New Year everybody!
Why, aren't you just a regular Mc Guyver.
I bet you are dangerous with a roll of 'duct tape' and a piece of 'bubble gum', huh? ;)
BTW, 'HAPPY NEW YEAR'...
;)
I recently did a side by side comprasion of the Forgotten Realms calendar with our Gregorian calendar, and found that the last day of our year is the first day of the Realms calendar, so in the Realms this would be the first day of the new year, so happy Realms New Year everybody!
Why, aren't you just a regular Mc Guyver.
I bet you are dangerous with a roll of 'duct tape' and a piece of 'bubble gum', huh? ;)
BTW, 'HAPPY NEW YEAR'...
Yeah you should of seen what i made with an empty pepsi 2 liter a corncob pipe, tubing, and bubble gum, but this probably isnt the best place to discuss such things
But any way I was thinking that Dec 31 as the first Realms day didnt make any sense, both calendars have the same numbers of days so they should match up however you do it, so i went and rechecked my calendar and realized i goofed, i added an extra day in there or something and it threw me off. So forget what i said before,
So Jan 1 would be Hammer 1
Jan 31 would be Midwinter
Feb 1 = Alturiak 1
March 1 = Alturiak 29
March 3 = Ches 1
April 1 = Ches 30
April 2 = Tarsakh 1
May 1 = Tarsakh 30
May 2 = Greengrass
May 3 = Mirtul 1
June 1 = Mirtul 30
June 2 = Kythorn 1
July 1 = Kythorn 30
July 2 = Flamerule 1
August 1 = Midsummer
Leap Year = Shieldmeet
August 2 = Eleasias
September 1 = Eleint 1
Oct 1 = Higharvetide
Oct 2 = Marpenoth 1
Nov 1 = Uktar 1
Dec 1 = Feast of the Moon
Dec 2 = Nightal 1
So yeah it matches up that way. I was just thinking about this because when coming up with characters birthdays, id just use thier real life birthday corresponding to the Realms month, unless they came up with a different date. But as i thought about it i realized it wouldnt be an exact match as our months have differnt numbers of days in them. so now i know that my birthday in the Realms would be on the 7th day of Alturiak
Yeah you should of seen what i made with an empty pepsi 2 liter a corncob pipe, tubing, and bubble gum, but this probably isnt the best place to discuss such things
Sounds interesting...
;)
Check out candlekeep.com, it's the Library of Forgotten Realms Lore.
I have found this source to be virtually useless for 4e, except maybe for providing history references to include for depth &/or knowledge checks.