Just curious
1) He's a Greater God, so he could take it, unlike Savras.
2) Mystra didn't die immediately. She lasted long enough for Cyric to make his getaway, and he teleported away moments before her death.
Thanks for the reply
The latter would make sense if she used her power to shield Cyric, with the intent of syphoning off Mystras power, but it backfired in that it caused an almost matter/ antimatter combination, shredding both.
-RW
Well it is really simple...he stole Mystra's "plot armor +10" with his own ring of author fiat/ logic deflection +20 he survived the damage.
-This.
-I've brought up the same question before in the past. The only thing that makes sense is that:
A) He killed her with a "Hit and Run", and wasn't on the plane when she actually succumbed to death
B) He was shunted away, like Azuth and Velsharoon, but wound up somewhere he could return to his own plane from.
Simple--he wasn't on his home turf and therefore can't be snuffed entirely.
-Yet Asmodeus killed Azuth in Nessus. ;)
18DELTA
-Yet Asmodeus killed Azuth in Nessus. ;)
18DELTA
Probably tried a bite of Cyric first and just couldn't stand the taste.
Simple--he wasn't on his home turf and therefore can't be snuffed entirely.
That doesn't help gods. Or if that was the case alot of gods should never have died.
Exactly. A lot of deities should not have died. However, an avatar should not have been able to kill a goddess on her home plane because they would have lacked the power to do so. Deities do not leave their home planes except in the form of avatars for just such a reason. They obviously want to avoid final destruction. If that was Cyric at full power, he should have been destroyed in the explosion if he was there long enough to confirm she died. However, this is just my opinion.
Deities kill each other all the time.
Besides, maybe Cyric had the Last Word.
THEN CYRIC CAN BE NOTHING MORE THAN A PAWN FOR THE REAL MASTER OF THE SPELL PLAGUE!
Mystra in the last second of her existence, tried to send out a seed of her power to be able to reconstitute itself later, and that somehow (spellplague) it latched onto Cyric, enabling him to survive. The long term effect will be either Cyric being changed, or somehow splits and births the new god/goddess of magic.
THEN CYRIC CAN BE NOTHING MORE THAN A PAWN FOR THE REAL MASTER OF THE SPELL PLAGUE![/IMG]
-Bah, he's in the Monster Manual now.
-Yet Asmodeus killed Azuth in Nessus. ;)
18DELTA
And Azuth had no home turf.
That doesn't help gods. Or if that was the case alot of gods should never have died.
According to the “rules” Cyric can’t be killed in Dweomerheart.
That is, unless something changed that I wasn’t aware of.
The only reason is due to Cyric's plot armour. The entire fact he got in and killed the most powerful god in the Realms in her own domain is thanks to rule of plot. Nothing more, nothing less.
As I’ve stated elsewhere.
The only reason is due to Cyric's plot armour. The entire fact he got in and killed the most powerful god in the Realms in her own domain is thanks to rule of plot. Nothing more, nothing less.
I don't see why anyone can claim this. There has been no lore given to explain how he did it, and given his power, I don't see why he couldn't have done it.
I think some people are selling the god of murder short, simply out of some deeply seeded dislike for the usurper.
-RW
I don't see why anyone can claim this. There has been no lore given to explain how he did it, and given his power, I don't see why he couldn't have done it.
I think some people are selling the god of murder short, simply out of some deeply seeded dislike for the usurper.
-RW
I agreed, so I guess I would say plot "lore" is not quite what was intended--at least in my case. But, plot, yes.
Story wise, this wasn't really out of the blue, mechanic wise it isn't impossible, and lore wise it makes more sense than anything else they could have done to explain this transition away.
-RW
Just sayin...
Story wise, this wasn't really out of the blue, mechanic wise it isn't impossible, and lore wise it makes more sense than anything else they could have done to explain this transition away.
Um, a bit of a blanket statement there. Are you truly suggesting that this makes more sense than anything else they could have done?
Mystra, having seen the unbalancing effect of the Shades deciding that Magic needed reworking?
Mystra, realising that her being a target for Cyric and Shar was a nice distraction but was proving too costly for casters on the ground and so set about luring them into putting their power into driving the changes by assaulting a deific simulacrum?
Midnight finally coming to the end of her tether with her deific duties being unable to truly separate her own moral compass from that required by her office without great suffering begging Ao for surcease?
These probably won't work... but they are other possibilities. And those are just to illustrate that there is always another way. Especially given the fact that retcons are not specifically impossible in this transition.
Just for the record, the most powerful god, if as AO states, power is derived from followers, is Chauntea, since the average person in the realms is the peasant farmer, and the majority of these would worship her. Mystra had alot of raw power, but was constrained in it's use, and also had spread it out among a few followers, but in terms of divine power she was not all that powerful. Shar was one of the two oldest gods, but her actual worshipers were fairly rare, and very quiet about it.
Just sayin...
Well for the record, speculation on power doesn't equate to fact. We unfortunately have to go by F&P, which puts Shar as the strongest. Which with a portfolio like Secrets, and being one of the original two, makes the most sense.;)
-RW
Second, not even the designers stated how this happened so I do not think anyone could really do so. The headache involved would be way too high and deciding how they did it exactly would be arbitrary.
Third, they could have explained the change in magic and the planes in plenty of other ways.
Last, in terms of power Chauntea was technically the most powerful god with a rank of 21 (I believe). Both Mystra and Shar shared the same power rank with Cyric begin a rank below them. Mystra was the god of magic, she would have had the strongest defenses in the entire history of magic. I would consider that pretty powerful.
However, everyone is entitled to disagree with my thoughts.
Divine Rank 19
Chauntea
Divine Rank 18
Mystra
Shar
Silvanus
Tyr
Divine Rank 17
Bane
Cyric
Kossuth
Lathander
Tempus
Divine Rank 16
Kelemvor
Oghma
Sune
Talos
Thank you for the correction. For some reason I thought it was 21...memory breaking down I guess lol.
I think some people are selling the god of murder short, simply out of some deeply seeded dislike for the usurper.
-I am no fan of Mystra, and Cyric isn't my favorite deity, either. So, I'm non-biased here. Given all of the facts that we have, it does indeed defy believability that Cyric was able to kill Mystra as the situation unfolded in the brief snippet in AGHotR. There are too many factors working on Mystra's behalf, and against Cyric.
-I'm not saying Cyric couldn't kill Mystra, if he attempted. But, not as we are told the scenario happened.
I think it is interesting however that Savras didn't see it coming
Step 1: Kill Mystra
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit
I think it is interesting however that Savras didn't see it coming
-That is certainly Shar's doing.
It occurs to me that unlike Mystra, Cyric knew what was going to happen and could have planned for it.
I think it is interesting however that Savras didn't see it coming
Step 1: Kill Mystra
Step 2:
Step 3: Profit
And I thought gnomes weren't making a contribution to the realms...
from this episode
Isn't it effectively, Cyric sneaks into her realm and stabs her?
What strikes me is that it really doesn't sound like anything he couldn't have done at any time.
-Exactly. Right. Had Cyric done it anywhere else, anytime else, I'd have no problems with the situation. That he sneak up on her and kill her? Entirely plausible. That he sneak up on her and kill her, using the scenario we're been told? Not that plausible.
Isn't it effectively, Cyric sneaks into her realm and stabs her?
-More or less, presumably. I doubt it was a long, drawn out battle.
He killed her in her Realm. Ok, so what are we contesting? Which aspect of that is in question?
We don't know how he did it in her Realm. Where she was. What she was doing. How Shar aided him.
What we do know is two greaters ganged up on one. Their portfolios complimented one another nicely, and combined were more than enough IMO to have Dealt with her anywhere. And given his portfolio of Illusion, I am sure he had no qualms gaining entrence.
It may not sit well with people, but it by no means was improbable, or impossible.
-RW
He killed her in her Realm. Ok, so what are we contesting? Which aspect of that is in question?
-This is the very beginning of the problem. How did Cyric gain entry without Mystra's foreknowledge, to begin with? Sure, sure, there are ways to get around this, using Velsharoon, but nothing states Velsharoon aids Cyric and Shar in their plot.
For the record...
Divine Rank 19
Chauntea
Divine Rank 18
Mystra
Shar
Silvanus
Tyr
Divine Rank 17
Bane
Cyric...
For the record again, (This is becomming a fairly long record:P) DvR doesn't mean a heck of alot, especially with a difference of one or two, when the power, and levels of the god in question are drastically different.
Chauntea: Outsider 20, Druid 20, Cleric 20, Ranger 8 = EL 68
Cyric: Fighter 3, Rogue 20, Assassin 10, Illusion 20 = EL 53
Mystra: Wizard 20, Loremaster 10, Archmage 5, Cleric 20 = EL 55
Shar: Outsider 20, Rogue 10, Shadow Dancer 10, Assassin 10, Sorcerer 9, Shadow adept 10 = Effective Outsider 20, Rogue 30, sorc 19, = EL 69
As you can see, the power difference I was meaning lay in their levels, and salient abilities.
Chauntea may have one DvR advantage, but she loses a level to shar, and none of her classes stack. Still, the point was meant more in comparrison of Shar and Cyric vs Mystra.
-RW
-This is the very beginning of the problem. How did Cyric gain entry without Mystra's foreknowledge, to begin with? Sure, sure, there are ways to get around this, using Velsharoon, but nothing states Velsharoon aids Cyric and Shar in their plot.
His portfolio of Illusion?
-RW
His portfolio of Illusion?
-How would that help him gain entry into the private domain of another Greater Deity? You can make an illusion of a tunnel on a wall, but this isn't a cartoon, here. A truck isn't going to then come out and run you over. :P
-How would that help him gain entry into the private domain of another Greater Deity? You can make an illusion of a tunnel on a wall, but this isn't a cartoon, here. A truck isn't going to then come out and run you over. :P
Well it is a portfolio of magic, which should enable him to gain access to the Realm of Magic. I'll call it an assumption, because I don't recall what lead me to this conclusion.
However, I think it makes more sense than saying it make none.
Think of it as a key to a door thought locked. Or perhaps a map to a door overlooked.
-RW
However, this assumption isn't contradicted by anything either, and would explain a great deal. Even if my assumption is wrong, I am still right in that there is no information on which to state concretely or otherwise, that it is implausible, or impossible for him to have accomplished this.
It is decidedly obscure, and thus can't really be argued legitimately IMO. Save ofcourse by people who just liked Mystra more, and detest Cyric. :P
-RW
If you know there is a murderer with a key to your house, you change the lock, install a security system, and get a big gun. As goddess of magic, she could do all 3.
Also, who is to say that Mystra managed to figure this out? It was a heated time, she may have not connected the dots. She is smart, but she also was thrust into a position of power and importance, that she showed quite clearly was in many ways beyond her capability to control or even comprehend.
Additionally, Dweomerheart may not have portals connecting to it, but it does have several limbs of the Great tree extending into it.
I mean there are so many possibilities of how he could have accomplished this, we don't know how many feints he had in place to distract her, so without more knowledge one can not simply say it makes no sense, or is implausible with any validity.
-RW
I disagree for now, in that I recall reading something that made this more than plausible.
-Find it, then, and then we'll talk. Not trying to be mean, but I've never read anything to that effect.
-Find it, then, and then we'll talk. Not trying to be mean, but I've never read anything to that effect.
And that's fine, I don't even really mind not remembering the source. The point remains that we know too little to make assumptions, or draw conclusions on the acts validity.
I might ask, as means of a counter, that you provide information to show that this suggestion isn't possible, or that gaining access to her Realm under all circumstances is impossible. ;)
-RW
I might ask, as means of a counter, that you provide information to show that this suggestion isn't possible, or that gaining access to her Realm under all circumstances is impossible. ;)
-As per F&P, being a deity of her stature with her own plane, Mystra has 100% control of the...stuff that makes up Dweomerheart. It is here that she is also her strongest. As such, she can bar others from entering into her divine realm.
Mystra was also the goddess of magic with Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon serving her. If she was aware shadow magic was under Shar, it is not far-fetched to assume she could know herself who had the portfolio of illusion.
In terms of wisdom, Midnight/Mystra had gained this along with the memories from Elminster about the previous goddess of magic. Midnight/Mystra was quite clearly able to handle her abilities and powers. What the problem was for Mystra was that her remaining humanity and goodness was leading her to react in ways that went beyond the scope of her office. By the end, she had come to terms with her office and limitations.
In terms of not being able to change the lock? Mystra created the darn plane of Dweomerheart. If she wanted to make up now down and the sky polka dots she could. Changing a lock or key would not be an issue. Since there is no information either way, any ideas could be used. However, from the evidence in novels she knew Cyric could very well have the porfolio and could have taken the needed steps to keep him out. Mystra had too many allies (many greater powers) to be considered so misinformed and airheaded.
However, since there is no published information specifically stating how he got in, any argument of prove this specific point by showing a source is going to fail for either side. Working on prior evidence, he should not have been able to enter.
Lenny
-As per F&P, being a deity of her stature with her own plane, Mystra has 100% control of the...stuff that makes up Dweomerheart. It is here that she is also her strongest. As such, she can bar others from entering into her divine realm.
Nothing I have read in F&P implies that Mystra has 100% control over Dweomerheart, nor that she can block the passage of anyone within it. PGtF states only that she can prevent the use of Magic within her Realm, and F&P states only that the gods can effect things only pertaining to their portfolios. Illusion may be an aspect of magic, but it would stand to reason that she could not directly bar Cyric from his use of Illusion, as she has no control over that Portfolio.
It is true that she can Sense anything she chooses to focus upon, however this isn't possible against a deity of equal or higher DvR. Now while Cyric is only DvR 17, Shar is DvR 18, and thus could extend a protection around Cyric. It stipulates that they can block the remote sensing of anything pertaining to a portfolio related event. I think this qualifies.
Additionally, it states that a direct link between two planes can be made, so long as the deities in question both agree. Now as far as I am concerned, the god of Lies and Intrigue could quiet easily fabricate a story that required immediate parley, and if this was backed by several feints from other angles (IE: Temple attacks, followers in need, divine focus on events elsewhere, perhaps on a demonic invasion of the triads realm) then I think it's entirely possible he pulled off her murder, and then stepped back through the connection, avoiding the magical backlash.
People have for so long, given Cyric next to no credit, citing the novels and saying they don't stack up against his potential. So what if this is him finally living up to thos expectations?
-RW
But, to each his/her own and more power to civil debating like this.
1) How did Cyric get into Dweomerheart?
a) He snuck in very carefully.
b) He barged in and didnt care of Mystra knew he was there.
c) He came in with a friend.
----) Whether this was Velsharoon or he showed up to see Mystra under false pretenses
d) He came in pretending to be someone else.
e) He didn't actually show up
2) How did Cyric kill Mystra?
a) He snuck up from behind and stabbed her.
b) He charged her from the front.
c) He put his arm around her shoulder all friendly like and then...
d) He gave her a bomb all Looney Toon style
e) Other options...
3) How did Cyric survive the collapse of the Plane?
a) He was ready for it to collapse and was able to jump out.
b) He relied on his Greater God powers to save him
c) Luck
I am sure I missed plenty...
How did she figure out Cyric might have the portfolio of illusion? Ao announced it. When deities die their portfolio goes to another. All deities know this.
No where does it say she KNOWS. She may very well have forgotten, missed the remark, overlooked the implications, or any variation thereof. She isn't a god of knowledge, and we've already shown how Savras can be impaired. Is it impossible she overlooked this? Absolutely.
Mystra was also the goddess of magic with Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon serving her. If she was aware shadow magic was under Shar, it is not far-fetched to assume she could know herself who had the portfolio of illusion.
Shadow magic isn't under Shar though. Nor is the Shadow Weave. She doesn't have that portfolio, so there is nothing to sense. Also, Shar can block any inquiries Mystra might have put in in regards to ALL portfolios, as she has Secrets. This Portfolio, may very well have protected Cyric this whole time, and he may never have known this. Who is to say Shars plans have not included Cyric unbeknownst to him? You can't say for certain she did not keep his portfolio of Illusions a secret, to use as a weapon in this very scenario.
In terms of wisdom, Midnight/Mystra had gained this along with the memories from Elminster about the previous goddess of magic. Midnight/Mystra was quite clearly able to handle her abilities and powers. What the problem was for Mystra was that her remaining humanity and goodness was leading her to react in ways that went beyond the scope of her office. By the end, she had come to terms with her office and limitations
Exactly, by the end. Her mortal nature was fallable, and therefore could have been fooled into believeing anything another of more experience wished. She could easily have overlooked any number of things. As I said, she is not a got of wisdom or knowledge, and Azuth, Savras or Velsharoon can't advise against that which they don't know. They are all lessers, who could have been kept in the dark by Shar aswell. We also don't know for certain that Velsharoon didn't jump ship, knowing that things were about to come crumbling down. After all, he was a Thayan, and only came to Dweomerheart seeking protection from Talos. He can be expected to be oppertunistic first and foremost, which when pitted against Cyric and Shar vs Mystra, seems like the safe bet lies with more power.
To expand upon an earlier point, I put forth that had Velsharoon aided in this event, he would have had the power to allow Cyric to create a direct link to Dweomerheart, at which point he could have teleported without Error behind Mystra, and done the deed. The promise could have been as grand as Mystras spot in the pantheon.
Alternatively, he could have lied to Velsharoon, tricking him into opening a link, and simply walked through regardless.
In terms of not being able to change the lock? Mystra created the darn plane of Dweomerheart. If she wanted to make up now down and the sky polka dots she could. Changing a lock or key would not be an issue. Since there is no information either way, any ideas could be used. However, from the evidence in novels she knew Cyric could very well have the porfolio and could have taken the needed steps to keep him out. Mystra had too many allies (many greater powers) to be considered so misinformed and airheaded.
It's mildy mutable, and it takes time to change. Also, if you don't expect something, why change it. She may have had the knowledge of the prior goddesses of Magic but that does not mean she had taken the time to go over all the memories. You are simply assuming she would have done something for something there is no evidence to require doing.
However, since there is no published information specifically stating how he got in, any argument of prove this specific point by showing a source is going to fail for either side. Working on prior evidence, he should not have been able to enter.
That is not the case. Working on all available evidence, it looks entirely possible for him to have entered, and with a great deal of ease. Even if you don't see that, the point remains I do. Which means the designers can, and thus the point becomes moot, as there is obviously something there to support the theory.
-RW
With all due respect, you are operating under your own assumptions just like I am. You can not prove your point and neither can I prove mine with 100% accuracy because there is no evidence that completely refutes the other.
You assume Velsharoon assisted Cyric and Shar (never confirmed).
You assume Mystra never knew Cyric had the portfolio of illusion (impossible to confirm).
You assume Mystra is such an idiot she lacks even the basic knowledge of what is going on around her. As I said before, it is not an issue of putting 2 and 2 together, it was spelled out in bold neon lettering that Cyric killed the goddess of illusions. Again, you cover this by stating (1) Mystra is not a god of knowledge and (2) Shar can block everyone (a very convenient fallback). Sorry, but you do not need to be a god of knowledge to have common sense. Remember too that as gods their minds encompass that which mortals can not (i.e. they process better).
You are assuming even if Mystra wanted to bar Cyric from using his universal key 1371-1385 was not enough time to adapt her plane to prevent access.
You are assuming Shar did not control the Shadow Weave. That is not true. Shar created the Shadow Weave and had complete control over it. The reason Velsharoon did not want to throw in his chips with Shar and accept use of the Shadow Weave was because he did not want to become dependant upon Shar.
Most important, you assume that Mystra never lived up to her full potential whereas Cyric did.
The authors having Cyric kill Mystra does not validate your theory. What it does show is that as authors they have the ability to do whatever they please. The authors needed Mystra dead. Cyric made the most sense as Shar only operates from the shadows. That is why they chose Cyric. There have been enough retcons detailed to demonstrate their ability to invalidate past information in order to replace it with their own new version (as is their right as authors of the setting).
Again, you are certainly allowed your opinion. But it does not mean yours is any more valid than mine (or any others).
The fact that speculation was possible at all should show that the event is not impossible, contrived, forced, or used solely for a transitionary period.
I think speculation on why, is better than ruling out all possibilities before an answer is known. That is a position born of ignorance, and can only breed ignorance. Keeping an open mind should always be the goal. ;)
And I do not mean to suggest my opinion is more valid, however one invalidates their own opinion when it is baseless, and contrived solely on personal taste for something, while ignoring the facts surrounding or being leant to the issue.
My observations may be incorrect, but I daresay they disprove the argument that the act was impossible.
-RW
..You can not prove your point and neither can I prove mine with 100% accuracy because there is no evidence that completely refutes the other.
This is my point. I offer possibilities that support the murder. Noone else offers anything to support it's impossibility.
You assume Velsharoon assisted Cyric and Shar (never confirmed).
Nope, speculated on the possibility to help explain the murder.
You assume Mystra never knew Cyric had the portfolio of illusion (impossible to confirm).
Speculate. Impossible to show she did. The possibility is there, which you have to admit.
You assume Mystra is such an idiot she lacks even the basic knowledge of what is going on around her.
Never even suggested as such. Simply showed examples of how she could have been mislead.
As I said before, it is not an issue of putting 2 and 2 together, it was spelled out in bold neon lettering that Cyric killed the goddess of illusions.
A statement suggesting that Shar could have in some way inhibited the others ability to recieve said message. And given Mystras still mortal tendancies, she may simply have no registered this little tidbit of information.
Again, you cover this by stating (1) Mystra is not a god of knowledge and (2) Shar can block everyone (a very convenient fallback). Sorry, but you do not need to be a god of knowledge to have common sense.
It isn't common sense. It is someone not having heard something, or having been in some way cut off from the provided information. And I am not falling back on anything. I am taking a piece of provided lore, and showing how it can be implemented.
Remember too that as gods their minds encompass that which mortals can not (i.e. they process better).
And remember that we're talking about gods interacting with other gods. Their plots and schemes cover far more layers than any mortal could comprehend.
You are assuming even if Mystra wanted to bar Cyric from using his universal key 1371-1385 was not enough time to adapt her plane to prevent access.
Speculating that she didn't know the danger of the key. We don't know the extent of the Secret portfolios powers
You are assuming Shar did not control the Shadow Weave.
Not at all, simply stating she doesn't have the portfolio controlling it. That doesn't mean she isn't just fighting off other interested in controlling it. Brute force could be her means of keeping it under her thumb.
That is not true. Shar created the Shadow Weave and had complete control over it.
There are enough variants of how the shadow weave came into being, that I think it is safe to say noone save Shar and perhaps Ao know it's true origin.
The reason Velsharoon did not want to throw in his chips with Shar and accept use of the Shadow Weave was because he did not want to become dependant upon Shar.
I never mentioned this. I didn't even suggest he wanted acess to her shadow weave. I simply stated that being Thayan, and evil, he was going to be oppertunistic, and think of himself first. If that meant abandoning or betraying Mystra, I'm sure he'd have done it. He did it with Talos.
Most important, you assume that Mystra never lived up to her full potential whereas Cyric did.
Never said this anywhere. I simply said that perhaps Cyric lived up to his potential. One does not equate, refute or support the other. I just was suggesting that perhaps people are continuing to write him off for no valid reason.
The authors having Cyric kill Mystra does not validate your theory.
No, but my Theory does validate their decision. I am showing one of I'm sure many ways, in which this could have been possible.
What it does show is that as authors they have the ability to do whatever they please. The authors needed Mystra dead. Cyric made the most sense as Shar only operates from the shadows. That is why they chose Cyric. There have been enough retcons detailed to demonstrate their ability to invalidate past information in order to replace it with their own new version (as is their right as authors of the setting).
But my speculations show that nothing need be invalidated to make this work. You are assuming they are invalidating something in the process of making the transition. until they tell us how it happened, you and I do not know.
Again, you are certainly allowed your opinion. But it does not mean yours is any more valid than mine (or any others).
My other post covered this.
-RW
Nothing I have read in F&P implies that Mystra has 100% control over Dweomerheart, nor that she can block the passage of anyone within it.
-Precedence demonstrates this. Evermeet: Island of the Elves demonstrates in it's first chapter that deities can bar other deities from entering their divine realms, when Corellon Larethian/Araushnee had Gruumsh barred from entering Arvandor.
-Has Shar ever waltzed into Selûne's realm to kill her? Malar has never waltzed into Eldath's realm to kill her, has he?
People have for so long, given Cyric next to no credit, citing the novels and saying they don't stack up against his potential. So what if this is him finally living up to thos expectations?
-Like I said, I am not a Mystra supporter. And, I have no feelings on Cyric. But, given the circumstances and what we know, it makes 0 sense that Cyric could have killed Mystra.
Well if we are going to figure out how it was done we need to break it all down.
1) How did Cyric get into Dweomerheart?
a) He snuck in very carefully.
b) He barged in and didnt care of Mystra knew he was there.
c) He came in with a friend.
----) Whether this was Velsharoon or he showed up to see Mystra under false pretenses
d) He came in pretending to be someone else.
e) He didn't actually show up
2) How did Cyric kill Mystra?
a) He snuck up from behind and stabbed her.
b) He charged her from the front.
c) He put his arm around her shoulder all friendly like and then...
d) He gave her a bomb all Looney Toon style
e) Other options...
3) How did Cyric survive the collapse of the Plane?
a) He was ready for it to collapse and was able to jump out.
b) He relied on his Greater God powers to save him
c) Luck
-Right. This is why Cyric was aided by plot armor.
-Precedence demonstrates this. Evermeet: Island of the Elves demonstrates in it's first chapter that deities can bar other deities from entering their divine realms, when Corellon Larethian/Araushnee had Gruumsh barred from entering Arvandor.
Unfortunately F&P supercedes that novel, as does PGtF. Both instances support my speculations, and give rise to doubt in regards to the impossibility.
-Has Shar ever waltzed into Selûne's realm to kill her? Malar has never waltzed into Eldath's realm to kill her, has he?
Neither one had access to a portfolio of said Realm. A portfolio of magic, seems like more than a viable key to the home of magic. Additionally, we don't know how Cyric gained access, and as I showed with canon examples, with simple speculation one can come up with very valid possibilities.
You seem to willing to dismiss all possibilities out of hand, with out looking at a shread of evidence that offers up possibility.
-Like I said, I am not a Mystra supporter. And, I have no feelings on Cyric. But, given the circumstances and what we know, it makes 0 sense that Cyric could have killed Mystra.
The little that we know is not enough to determine possibility or not. You are using distaste for the scenario as a screen to the options I've presented. I have shown several examples of how they might have explained this, and whether they are the best or not is really irrelevant, as it atleast shows there ARE options available.
-Right. This is why Cyric was aided by plot armor.
Speculation without evidence. Until they release a statement that says "Cyric walked into Dweomerheart, stabbed Mystra in the face and walked away amidst a collapsing plane with not help from anyone" you can't make that claim.
You don't like the way you think it was handled, that doesn't mean it wasn't done well. ;)
-RW
Unfortunately F&P supercedes that novel, as does PGtF. Both instances support my speculations, and give rise to doubt in regards to the impossibility.
-Both products do indeed supercede the novel, as it is an older source. This does nothing to answer the point I raised. Corellon Larethian/Araushnee proved that deities can bar other deities from their divine realms. There isn't a mechanical reflection of this, perhaps, but the proof is in the pudding right there, as it is said.
Neither one had access to a portfolio of said Realm. A portfolio of magic, seems like more than a viable key to the home of magic. Additionally, we don't know how Cyric gained access, and as I showed with canon examples, with simple speculation one can come up with very valid possibilities.
-Malar and Eldath are both nature deities, and have nature portfolios. As such, Malar would have the "key" to Eldath's nature realm, using the theory that you were hinting of before.
The little that we know is not enough to determine possibility or not.
-All we have is that Cyric "murders Mystra in Dweomerheart" and that the plane "itself disintegrates at once". With no mention of damage to Cyric himself, how he eludes a collapsing plane, that collapsed immediately, is mind-boggling.
Sweet Bejebuz on a pop sickle stick and enjoin' it.
I don't believe how for this has come from last night.
Reading through this, I started grabbin' quotes from everybody--'cause they all held validity. Unfortunately, I was looking to take up a page myself with just the quotes.
While I don't side completely with him, I am going to say that I lean more towards Red_Wizard on this issue. Not because I believe anyone is wrong in their statements, but because of this:
Shar made a serious power play in the second book of the Twilight War trilogy.
We have no idea what is about to transpire--or what it portends. She is pulling off another RSE that could mean and do anything. She has two books in hand that have unknown powers and unlimited potential that she has looked to recover and implement for some time. We also know what she wants.
What's going on in book two and three of that series could easily be the catalyst to what occurs with Mystra.
As we are assuming on all of this, I have to look at this scenario as a possible pinpoint, as it is yet unexplained.
Shar made a serious power play in the second book of the Twilight War trilogy.
We have no idea what is about to transpire--or what it portends. She is pulling off another RSE that could mean and do anything. She has two books in hand that have unknown powers and unlimited potential that she has looked to recover and implement for some time. We also know what she wants.
What's going on in book two and three of that series could easily be the catalyst to what occurs with Mystra.
As we are assuming on all of this, I have to look at this scenario as a possible pinpoint, as it is yet unexplained.
-Maybe Cyric kills Mystra with Godsbane, thus he killed her using Mask. Maybe Mask is now hidden with Cyric in captivity. Him killing Leira (sp) was a trial run, for the real deal.
18DELTA
-Maybe Cyric kills Mystra with Godsbane, thus he killed her using Mask. Maybe Mask is now hidden with Cyric in captivity. Him killing Leira (sp) was a trial run, for the real deal.
18DELTA
Well, seeing how Mask "disappears" without a trace and Cyric is insane enough to believe that Godsbane may have returned to him specifically to kill Mystra...yeah...your sarcasm aside, I can see it.
Especially when the three most powerful Gods capable of sneaking into Mysrta's domain in stealth and secret, are all present and coordinating at the same time. Especially with a big f*cking distraction like a portal opening and covering Faerun in darkness.
Shar is power hungry and a manipulator
Cyric is insane and set for revenge
Mask is calculating and self preserving
Throw those three together in the right circumstance....
...your sarcasm aside....
-What, where, when? :D
18DELTA ;)
-What, where, when? :D
18DELTA ;)
Well!! If you stop being so f*%kin; :angelhide :pile:
:bounce: :invasion: 
:evillaugh all the time, I might know!!! While I don't side completely with him, I am going to say that I lean more towards Red_Wizard on this issue. Not because I believe anyone is wrong in their statements, but because of this:
I wasn't really shooting for an agreement with my speculations, just to have people admit we know to little to make a judgement either way. I mean it may very well be impossible to do what he did in the way they have written it, but until they have, I think I have shown how it could be possible.
Shar made a serious power play in the second book of the Twilight War trilogy
My other point for arguing came from Shars aquisition of the Karse stone. I think that is as of yet unused.
-RW
Well!! If you stop being so f*%kin; :angelhide :pile:
-It's all part of my charm. :D
18DELTA :P
I wasn't really shooting for an agreement with my speculations, just to have people admit we know to little to make a judgement either way. I mean it may very well be impossible to do what he did in the way they have written it, but until they have, I think I have shown how it could be possible.
I'm aware, which is why I lean to your side.
No judgment can be made until the facts are here. And, despite the fact of 4e (which there are almost none), 3e facts have yet to be established.
You can't put things in stone at this point. We have a few novels being finished to see how things fare--and we already know that Lisa Smedman managed to get her sh*t incorporated into the FRCG.
Possibilities remain, regardless of any rules, facts, beliefs that have yet to be laid.
My other point for arguing came from Shars aquisition of the Karse stone. I think that is as of yet unused.
-RW
That, I wasn't aware of.
Please post that info if it is credible and short. Otherwise, please send me a PM on the subject. Would appreciate.
-Both products do indeed supercede the novel, as it is an older source. This does nothing to answer the point I raised. Corellon Larethian/Araushnee proved that deities can bar other deities from their divine realms. There isn't a mechanical reflection of this, perhaps, but the proof is in the pudding right there, as it is said.
And my answer was simple. It was the portfolio of Illusion that allows Cyric to enter, and the method by which he can get by the assumed barring of himself from the plane to begin with. This may have been explained in another thread, however I know I have brought it up in reponse to the same arguement before.
Even if I didn't make that clear in this thread, the point remains that all current information doesn't support the idea of gods barring anyone from their Realms. Even if it did, I have shown ways around this as well, within the rules.
Granted we had one other banning, but that didn't have a portfolio in common. As for the one with portfolios in common, I would wager those portfolios are either not properly aligned, or the individual doesn't feel safe attacking another in their home plane. Look at Vhaeraun vs Eilistraee.
Just because noone else has used Cyrics method, doesn't make it impossible.
-Malar and Eldath are both nature deities, and have nature portfolios. As such, Malar would have the "key" to Eldath's nature realm, using the theory that you were hinting of before.
And I am not refuting he does. I put forth that one would not wish to attack the other on their home turf alone. Cyric was backed by at least Shar, and thier combined plethora of portfolios. Look at Vhaeruan as I said, he is proof of both the possibilty of sneaking into another gods Realm (the failure came with his priests death, not the plan), and the result of failure.
-All we have is that Cyric "murders Mystra in Dweomerheart" and that the plane "itself disintegrates at once". With no mention of damage to Cyric himself, how he eludes a collapsing plane, that collapsed immediately, is mind-boggling.
It doesn't say though that she was killed instantly. And we don't know how fast the plane collapsed. If he had tricked someone into letting him into the Realm, he could have teleported without error back out before the collapse happened.
-RW
It doesn't say though that she was killed instantly. And we don't know how fast the plane collapsed. If he had tricked someone into letting him into the Realm, he could have teleported without error back out before the collapse happened.
-RW
Indeed. Which is why Shar, with Cyric "The Insane" killed Mystra and not just Shar or Cyric.
There are variables here that can't be answered as of now.
-RW
Mystra is dead again?!
What is the first set of 4e Forgotten Realms adventures going to involve the players assisting some NPCs that eventually become god replacements? Maybe something original can happen, like all the PCs could get accused of killing Elminster.
Please don't update me on the supposed goings on in this pantheon, there is no way that having gods drop like flies could be anything other than incredibly lame.
On a positive note, I never really warmed up to 3e and our group never made the jump from 2e but I really like what I am seeing out of 4e.
Mystra is dead again?!
but she stayed dead this time
but she stayed dead this time
Well so far....I mean there is no reason to think she'll stay dead...I mean you can get a strand of her hair as treasure. And if the New FR bomb I think you'll see coming back.
mean there is no reason to think she'll stay dead...
-Should now be the time that I mention that deities actually aren't any more physical than, say, gamma rays?
ALRIGHT!! STOP!!!
Sweet Bejebuz on a pop sickle stick and enjoin' it.
I don't believe how for this has come from last night.
It is important that we debate this, especially when it doesn't make any sense, not unlike a lot of things in the book.
-Should now be the time that I mention that deities actually aren't any more physical than, say, gamma rays?
Well that completely depends on what your are using as a reference point. Personaly in D&D gods(well it used to be) was pretty much sustained by mortals belief in them...so the only way to remove a god is to attack his worshipper base by killing them directly or just converting or discrediting the god. Now the D&D gods are pretty much Immortals from Highlander...
Stories of players killing D&D gods have been around for years. I knew lots of "Old Schoolers" that have whacked severa lgods after reaching the "right levels". Nothing new under the sun guys.
No it isn't really...the only way to keep players from killing something is not to stat it. But that doesn't mean I have to like it or accept it. Or support a system that now supports this kind of play.
Also I would think the game has evoled and 'grown up' a little over the years. Not everything ftom the 'old school' days are good...personaly I find the text on all Goodman game modules about the good old days when NPCs were meant to be killed to be pretty much dumb.
Well that completely depends on what your are using as a reference point. Personaly in D&D gods(well it used to be) was pretty much sustained by mortals belief in them...so the only way to remove a god is to attack his worshipper base by killing them directly or just converting or discrediting the god.
-Well, there's plenty of other ways to kill deities, in canon. But, I was just pointing out that, you know, how can Mystra have hair that can be found, when she is just a concentrated manifestation of magical energies.
-Now, if it is hair from when she was a mortal, that makes sense.