Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Mulhull Jul 31, 2009 4:59:59	As I recall, clerics could only recharge their spells within, what- 10 miles of their deities? So, wouldn't a cleric of Correlon on Oerth be totally without spells? And, were the avatars in the ToT really downgraded from their divine position- that is mortalized, their true forms didn't reside on the Outer Planes like they usually do, while their avatars went wherever else. I thought the former, but this seems to contradict it Finally, Lord Ao lifted the barrier that prevented the Mulhorandi god-kings from reuniting with their divine selves on the Outer Planes. The physical incarnations of the Mulhorandi gods departed Faerun and left governance of the empire to mortal rulers under their guidance.[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles_(Forgotten_Realms) I know it's wikipedia, but it has a ref to the book where it's mentioned. If this is true, then perhaps only some of the gods were mortalized, thus they were able to be killed.
#2 LordManshoon Jul 31, 2009 8:08:12	As I recall, clerics could only recharge their spells within, what- 10 miles of their deities? So, wouldn't a cleric of Correlon on Oerth be totally without spells? Corellon maintains a presence in Oerth's crystal sphere, so he and his clerics there would be fine. Remember, the Time of Troubles only affected deities found in Realmspace, and did not spread to other crystal spheres/worlds (such as Oerth), since that is beyond Ao's power and works against him rather than to his advantage. And, were the avatars in the ToT really downgraded from their divine position- that is mortalized, their true forms didn't reside on the Outer Planes like they usually do, while their avatars went wherever else. I thought the former, but this seems to contradict it? Correct, the avatars were miniature versions of the gods themselves. Their true forms became their avatars in mortal form. The only exception is Helm, who was not punished by Ao and retained his divinity throughout the crisis. I know it's wikipedia, but it has a ref to the book where it's mentioned. If this is true, then perhaps only some of the gods were mortalized, thus they were able to be killed. Possibly.
#3 Mirtek Jul 31, 2009 8:29:45	The multisperhic deities (like Corellon) remained on the outer planes in their true divine forms. They merely had to manifest a normal avatar to represent their divine connection to Realmspace. Unlike the single spheric deities their true selves were not contained in these avatars I know it's wikipedia, but it has a ref to the book where it's mentioned. If this is true, then perhaps only some of the gods were mortalized, thus they were able to be killed. The mulhorandi and untheric pantheons also are multispheric powers. Yet for them it's annother special case, since their divine presence within realmspace was different than any other pantheons until the end of the ToT. The mulhorandi and untheric pantheons never had a realm divine connection to Realmspace because of the immaskari barrier, so they had to sneak in special avatar through a backdoor who were then supposed to lift the barrier from within and then rejoin their divine selves who would then form a normal divine connection. While the managed to overthrow Immaskar, they never managed to bring down the barrier until Ao finally lifted it.
#4 lord_karsus Jul 31, 2009 10:41:27	-This, what you bring up, is the biggest part of the Time of Troubles that makes people scratch their heads. When you look at what happened, using "the bigger picture" (ie, looking at things from a multispheric point-of-view), the..."validity" of how things went down during the Time of Troubles lessens, to a degree. -Basically, multispheric deities, having presences elsewhere, didn't have their "grand plans across the multiverse" thrown out of whack because of Ao, who only has power in Realmspace. I always say that the deity itself lost some bit of power, as the part of it's "awareness" that looked down on things in Realmspace separated from it's main essence/sentience, when Ao mandated that all deities assume their avatar forms.
#5 Mulhull Aug 01, 2009 5:39:36	Corellon maintains a presence in Oerth's crystal sphere, so he and his clerics there would be fine. Remember, the Time of Troubles only affected deities found in Realmspace, and did not spread to other crystal spheres/worlds (such as Oerth), since that is beyond Ao's power and works against him rather than to his advantage. My point was, since the deities were mortalized and the only form Correlon would have had was his avatar on Toril, his true form mortalized. And no, it affected ALL Deities in Realmspace even those who operate in other planes and spheres. Basically, if the god does business on Toril, he is subject to Ao's rules and punishments His outer planar self would not be able to give spells to his clerics on Oerth. Remember that many elven deities died during the ToT most of them killed by Lloth, some of them were multispheric, but they died permanently when Lloth killed them, just like Bane died permanently when Cyric killed him, so this made me think that Corellon's only form was his avatar on Toril. Plus, wouldn't him manifesting a "normal" (normal meaning an avatar that was not his only form) not really please Ao, since it doesn't seem to be giving him the punishment he and the other gods deserved, him ultimately being mad they were not paying attention to their worshippers. Wouldn't really be of much consequence if Correllon's avatar was killed, since he still has his true form on the outer planes, unlike say Bane who was permanently killed when his avatar died. Correct, the avatars were miniature versions of the gods themselves. Their true forms became their avatars in mortal form. The only exception is Helm, who was not punished by Ao and retained his divinity throughout the crisis. This seems to contradict what you said earlier about Correllon residing still on the outer planes.
#6 LordManshoon Aug 01, 2009 11:53:32	My point was, since the deities were mortalized and the only form Correlon would have had was his avatar on Toril, his true form mortalized. And no, it affected ALL Deities in Realmspace even those who operate in other planes and spheres. Basically, if the god does business on Toril, he is subject to Ao's rules and punishments His outer planar self would not be able to give spells to his clerics on Oerth. And this is incorrect. Realms-Corellon wouldn't be able to give Oerth priests spells, but Oerth-Corellon, who has been there for eons and isn't subject to the punishments inflicted on his Realms identity/aspect, still can, without any problems. And I never said it didn't affect all deities in Realmspace (asides from Helm, who WAS NOT punished like the other deities); it's just that it only affected the Realmspace versions of those deities with established identities in other planes and spheres, and not their identities in those foreign spheres. Remember that many elven deities died during the ToT most of them killed by Lloth, some of them were multispheric, but they died permanently when Lloth killed them, just like Bane died permanently when Cyric killed him, so this made me think that Corellon's only form was his avatar on Toril. Plus, wouldn't him manifesting a "normal" (normal meaning an avatar that was not his only form) not really please Ao, since it doesn't seem to be giving him the punishment he and the other gods deserved, him ultimately being mad they were not paying attention to their worshippers. Wouldn't really be of much consequence if Correllon's avatar was killed, since he still has his true form on the outer planes, unlike say Bane who was permanently killed when his avatar died. This seems to contradict what you said earlier about Correllon residing still on the outer planes. Zinzerena was the only elven deity who bit the dust during the ToT. The others were all fine. Bane didn't die permanently; he got blasted by Mystra (died), immediately came back in his new form (with Myrkul's help), got slain by Torm (died again), maintained some level of sentience (Finder's Bane), returned to life once more by consuming Iyachtu Xvim (back to life again), and is now alive and well in 1479 DR. And yes, were Realms-Corellon to have perished, his presence in other crystal spheres would have been just fine. Realms-Corellon =/= Oerth-Corellon, but rather they are but two parts of the universal Corellon, who cannot die just because one of his aspects has been slain. You might want to read up on the ToT more, because you seem to have gotten things jumbled. Also, please note that it was Mirtek, not myself, who mentioned the outer planes.;)
#7 Mirtek Aug 01, 2009 18:28:54	This seems to contradict what you said earlier about Correllon residing still on the outer planes. Faiths&Avatars has a sidebar explaing what multispheric powers had to do during the ToT. Like said above their true forms were not confined into a single mortal avatar like the single spheric deities, nonetheless they had to participate by manifesting a normal avatar that would represent their divine connection to realmspace. Avatar destroyed = divine connection to Realmspace severed = dead as far as the average mortal on Toril is concerned. Yet still alive on the outer planes and managning all other connections to various mortal worlds and thus in a good position to reconnect to Realmspace.
#8 LordManshoon Aug 01, 2009 18:32:00	Faiths&Avatars has a sidebar explaing what multispheric powers had to do during the ToT. Like said above their true forms were not confined into a single mortal avatar like the single spheric deities, nonetheless they had to participate by manifesting a normal avatar that would represent their divine connection to realmspace. Avatar destroyed = divine connection to Realmspace severed = dead as far as the average mortal on Toril is concerned. Yet still alive on the outer planes and managning all other connections to various mortal worlds and thus in a good position to reconnect to Realmspace. Exactly. Oddly enough, the OP seems to have read both our replies, quoted mine, but discussed yours (which is why I had to straighten him out in my above comment).