That being said I must protest on how the triangle of Starbrow, Iresevle, and Aravien went down. That just irked me to no end. I mean even if I was an elf who turned immortal and therefore had all the time in the world on my hands I'd be PO'd to no end if my fiancee up and left me for a blosoming friend in about a two tendays time... Even if I didn't unleash a little high magic their way I'd consider the silent treatment very strongly...
Now, that being said I agree that Iresevle leaving Aravein wasn't a bad idea after the immortal thing, or at all, because from the beginning you could feel that Aravein was a wonderer and she wasnt. Also that Starbrow needed to forfill his yearning heart with an elf worthy of his battle prowess and family needs. They were a perfect fit. But At the very least they could have killed Aravien in some epic battle of spellcasting so the main character isn't hung out to dry. Thats just wrong. He hasn't really been a factor in other lore and even with the spark developing between him and that Geni I don't think it's going to cut it. The hero and savor of the book follows his heart and then gets crushed by his love. There is no justification for it!
...I just think him dying to save all the elves and revive Myth Drannor would have been apripo, and then he could have lived on as a legend and no guilt or ill will would have followed the Marrage between Irevles and Starbrow.
ps. Whats the deal with Aravien getting jipped into the traditional 20year engagement but Starbrow only has to wait 20days..? Gosh I'd be uber p*ssed if I was the newest Immortal High Mage.
Anybody agree, dissagree, see another outcome/route? Thanks.
I do like the Last Mythal Trilogy and thought that it ended rather well. Finally FR shook off the age-old shackles of Tolkien-esque sterotype that the elves are always retreating. Fflar coming back to help with the crusade was interesting since i've only read one other time where a character was resurrected in a D&D novel and found it fitting to re-start life right were he left off, fighting demons for elven lands. The only think I wasn't all that suprised about was Miritar's death. Anyone could see that coming a mile away so that his daughter could take over as coronal.
As for the Starbrow, Iresevle, and Aravien trio, I think Aravien knew well in advance that things weren't going to work out with Iresevele, espically after his transformation. I think he loved Iresevele enough that he saw the connection between her and Fflar and was glad (and maybe slightly relieved?) that she found her happiness with Starbrow. Besides, I think Aravien was more in love with his work in magic and now that he's gained knowledge of high magic, he's fully enmeshed with it. In all, I thought it was a win-win for everyone.
-RW
Hmm, come to think of it, Aravien's 'transformation' made him end up looking a lot like 4e's Eladrin... exactly like them.
Maybe he just re-established his connection with the Feywild a few years before the rest of his kin...
(SPOILERS AHEAD)
That being said I must protest on how the triangle of Starbrow, Iresevle, and Aravien went down. That just irked me to no end. I mean even if I was an elf who turned immortal and therefore had all the time in the world on my hands I'd be PO'd to no end if my fiancee up and left me for a blosoming friend in about a two tendays time... Even if I didn't unleash a little high magic their way I'd consider the silent treatment very strongly...
This! It annoyed the hell out of me! I could barely finish the book after that point, They'd been betrothed etc for like 40 years then just like that she goes off getting "friendly" with some other guy she's known for a couple of weeks without even talking to him about it first.
I was seriously hoping that Aravin would unleash some killing magic on starbrow or atleast get royally ****** off when he came back and found out. After seeing how he reacted I could barely finish the book, it was appaling.
He shouldn't have been so disgustingly understanding, he should've gotten mad and then never spoken to them again or some such;) That would have been slightly more satisfying.
So yea, the trilogy was a good read(until the aforementioned part) but seeing how that triangle drama played out ruined the whole trilogy in my eyes. I have about 60 realms novels and have read a good number of them twice but I dont think I'll ever reread The Last Mythal trilogy just for that reason. Call me insane if you'd like;)
On the other hand, as DM, I felt Cormanthor was FAR more useful to me before.
I am only commenting on the storyline and outcomes - I do not like Elves, so I haven't bothered to read this. From what I understand, the writing at least was very good.
(A) The book felt, basically, like someone took campaign notes, spruced them up, and presented them as a novel. I am not accusing Rich of doing this, but that's what it seemed like, to me. Novels and rules have a symbiotic relationship, but novels are allowed (and I think even benefit from) leaving the rules behind, at some points (ie, a lot of R.A. Salatore's Forgotten Realms literature). These books felt too "stuck" to the rules, for my tastes.
(B) The concept of a crusade to recapture Myth Drannor is unrealistic. Myth Drannor fell to the Army of Darkness early in the 8th century Dale Reckoning. That means that there was about six hundred years in-between when the city fell, and when the books took place (1,374 DR). The city was inhabited by all kinds of monsters all during this period. The Fey'ri occupying the city, in all honesty, is no more different than Demons inhabiting the city, or Phaerimm inhabiting the city, or whatever else. Even if the Fey'ri launching an assault on Evermeet, I see nothing that would have prompted Everaer Elves to want to "clean out" Myth Drannnor; after all, nothing prompted them to do anything over the past couple of centuries.
(C) I, as was said, saw the romance of Ilsevele and Melruth Starbrow as a bit odd, especially considering the time span we are talking here. Even if Araevin altered himself and became "emotionally distant", Elves are extremely long-lived creatures. The serious courting period for Elves- as opposed to flings and one-night stands and all of that- is much longer than that for Humans; hell, even with Humans, when people say, "Yeah, I dated my girlfriend for six months before I proposed", I raise my eyebrow. I find it hard to believe that over a few weeks, Ilsevele loved Araevin, left Araevin, and formed a loving bond with Melruth that ultimately culminated in their marriage after the fact.
(D) I did not like the character of Araevin at all. Just like my main criticism with the novel Bladesinger, if we are having an "special character concept", I want to see an "Archetype character", not a "weirdo". If we're lucky enough to have a Selu'Taar character, I want him/her to be a stereotypical Selu'Taar, not a "maverick". Just like, if we're lucky enough to have a Bladesinger, I want to see an Elven Bladesinger, more like Daried, from Rich Baker's short story in Realms of the Elves, not the Half-Elf weirdo, from Bladesinger.
(E) The Tree of Souls fiasco. Nuff said.
As for the story - like I said, I got the 'Cliff's Notes' version here from folks. My whole problem is what was the point of destroying an amazing area to adventure in? He pretty-much totalled my old Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, several other sources (like The Dalelands), and the entire section on Cormanthor in the FRCG. Elven ruins are INTERESTING, Elven nations are NOT.
What is the point, exactly, of writing stories in a GAME setting, that removes adventure areas?
The series may have been fine in a novel-only setting, but it really was detrimental to an RPG setting. Isn't that the series that also wiped-out a few good locales over in the Hgh Forest as well?
-No, I didn't really like this one too much. No offense against Rich, who has written books that I have liked, but:
(A) The book felt, basically, like someone took campaign notes, spruced them up, and presented them as a novel. I am not accusing Rich of doing this, but that's what it seemed like, to me. Novels and rules have a symbiotic relationship, but novels are allowed (and I think even benefit from) leaving the novels behind, at some points (ie, a lot of R.A. Salatore's Forgotten Realms literature). These books felt too "stuck" to the rules, for my tastes.
Thats a very good point and something that annoyed me abit as well at times, the bolded part is spot on. I did feel like he was throwing in mechanics and rules far too much for my liking(cant really blame him, what with being a designer and all:rolleyes
, I think the novels should only be (very)loosely based on DnD mechanics/rules.Not that I ever thought I'd be defending RB for anything lore-related, but I knew my wife all of three months before we got married, oh so long ago... about 18 years ago as I recall it. So it can very much work for some people, and honestly, I'd have married her sooner if I was given the opportunity.
-Well, congratulations for you, and Mrs. Stigger. That's a good thing, that you guys've been able to "last" so long, as a couple together. That still doesn't make me not raise my eyebrow a little, though.
-If you don't mind me asking, why did you get married so quickly? Three months is not a lot of time. I mean, I know this was the roaring twenties and all, but...(Targeted at Stigger, not Mrs. Stigger) :P
LK- I think your fourth useage of the word 'novel(s)' should have been 'rules' - it makes sense that way (I was left a little confused).
-Whoops, yeah. Went back and fixed that.
Thats a very good point and something that annoyed me abit as well at times, the bolded part is spot on. I did feel like he was throwing in mechanics and rules far too much for my liking(cant really blame him, what with being a designer and all:rolleyes
-At times, it can get a little difficult. I've only delved into short stories, but I, personally, think I keep "novels" and "rules" separate enough that things aren't especially..."noticeable". One character, for example, is a Hexblade. Though I haven't written extensively about him, not once did I even use the word "Hex". Rather, I use terms like, "give bad luck", "put a bad luck curse on", "alter probability in his/her disfavor", or things like that.
Not that I ever thought I'd be defending RB for anything lore-related, but I knew my wife all of three months before we got married, oh so long ago... about 18 years ago as I recall it. So it can very much work for some people, and honestly, I'd have married her sooner if I was given the opportunity.
But had she been dating a guy for Twenty, no, lets say Ten years before that? and then break it off because you walked in the picture...?
Or even better (for the hypo question, not your sanity) lets say in two years some long dead hero of legend walks into your guys' life and she runs off with him... Who isn't going to grab the closest gun and spray a few bullets at the "Understanding and Emotionally appealing" Character from legends of old?
But as noted above in others' posts, I don't think they were good for the game world. They removed, transformed, or invalidated several very good adventure sites and plot hooks that were pure gold for writing one's own adventures.
The best novels don't necessarily work well for the game world, as they usually are transformative of the setting in major ways and then become canon upon publication.
The Time of Troubles had a similar problem, as did other "big RSE" works: great as fantasy novels, and very fun on even a conceptual level, but they had drastic (and often negative) consequences for the game world.
My whole problem is what was the point of destroying an amazing area to adventure in? He pretty-much totalled my old Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, several other sources (like The Dalelands), and the entire section on Cormanthor in the FRCG. Elven ruins are INTERESTING, Elven nations are NOT.
What is the point, exactly, of writing stories in a GAME setting, that removes adventure areas?
You kind Sir just made my day!
The Time of Troubles had a similar problem, as did other "big RSE" works: great as fantasy novels, and very fun on even a conceptual level, but they had drastic (and often negative) consequences for the game world.
You know, its funny you should bring that up (you little vixen, you)....
Hmmmm... not sure why I just said that...
Anyway, I really enjoyed the Avatar Novels when I first read them ...
You see, they were the very first series I read after the first three Drizzt books, and I new nothing at all about the Realms (well, almost nothing, especially compared to now).
Now that I can look back on them with an "FR Sage's eye", I can no longer appreciate them for what they were - a decent yarn about mortals messin' with gods... and winning!
'Knowing' FR took the 'fun' out of FR, in a really weird sort-of way.
Thanks - sometimes I feel like I keep beating the same dead horse. I'm glad to know someone is still listening.
You know, its funny you should bring that up (you little vixen, you)....
Hmmmm... not sure why I just said that...
Well, I am a member of the Justice League. ;)
Anyway, I really enjoyed the Avatar Novels when I first read them ...
You see, they were the very first series I read after the first three Drizzt books, and I new nothing at all about the Realms (well, almost nothing, especially compared to now).
Now that I can look back on them with an "FR Sage's eye", I can no longer appreciate them for what they were - a decent yarn about mortals messin' with gods... and winning!
'Knowing' FR took the 'fun' out of FR, in a really weird sort-of way.
I really liked the ToT novels, but I completely kept all of that stuff out of my FR game. Just didn't fit well, in a ton of ways.
Well, I am a member of the Justice League. ;)
-The same one that goes around Faerûn solving everyone's problems and doing things for them? Just wondering...If so, I have something you guys can do...
-The same one that goes around Faerûn solving everyone's problems and doing things for them? Just wondering...If so, I have something you guys can do...
Yes, but I'm currently hiding all the Chosen and the Harpers, so don't make it something too overtly noticable. ;)
And =shh!= Mystra really isn't dead...
-Well, congratulations for you, and Mrs. Stigger. That's a good thing, that you guys've been able to "last" so long, as a couple together. That still doesn't make me not raise my eyebrow a little, though.
-If you don't mind me asking, why did you get married so quickly? Three months is not a lot of time. I mean, I know this was the roaring twenties and all, but...(Targeted at Stigger, not Mrs. Stigger) :P
Because it was 'right' I guess, for lack of a better word. After a week of having met her I knew I wanted to marry her, but I thought that was a little creepy in a stalker sort of way, as we weren't even dating at the time, so I waited, brought up marrying her after better than 24 hours of sleep deprivation and maybe two weeks of formal dating, and the rest, as they say is history. And I was 19 at the time, not quite 20, so... ;)
@ Phelf -
Wouldn't have made a difference to me, and I think by now I can safely say its doubtful it would have made much difference to her either, since I found out she had the same thought running through her mind a week after we met as I did.
As to the guy she was dating at the time, I have no idea how he felt, since I never asked or cared. I doubt she did either to be honest.
-------------------------------------------------------------
So no, it doesn't strike me as unbelievable that our bizarre love triangle of elves worked the way it did. It had been 40 years and they weren't married yet? The first thought that springs to my mind is that the relationship was comfortable, not worth giving up just because, but nothing to really get that excited about. A situation where they had no real reason to stay together, but no real reason to break apart either.
I'd imagine that if he were actually able to achieve being a High Mage, he'd have to be capable of being honest with himself on a very profound level, and realized that the relationship had been over for a while in all likelihood. Why be vindictive or angry over something as petty as that when you have all of the insight and wisdom associated with being a High Mage? Had he been a vindictive prick, I wouldn't believe he had really been deserving of the title in the first place, much less that he had successfully achieved that goal.
I'd prefer they've conquered Elven Court or Semberholme, but had to withdraw from Myth Drannor due to all the monsters (not fey'ri)
Araevin and the genasi are decent characters, Flar, Seiveril and others had no soul
Malkizid is an annoying character but not in a good, villainous way. The Trio Nefarious are cool, 'loths having some presence in FR, now their boss shows up and ruins it. He miraculously cancels the racial hatred of fiends. I liked that they traveled to the Barrens of Doom and Despair, but the description of the place is poor, Resurrection, despite its errors, has the alternate universe Khin-Oin well described.
The nexus/mythal/last weapon of Aryvandaar idea, I'd rather erase that from Realmslore.
the eladrin transformation ritual is great idea, 4e takes most of that magic away
Hillsfar, Sembia and Zhentil Keep seemed too incompetent.
the party traveled to odd locations, Sildeyuir was boring, Sybil was alright, but I feel these locations don't fit into the theme of series, too disconnected, inserted just cause deep imaskari and star elves needed more exposure
towards the end you feel the plot is rushed, the third book hasn't got much flavor
Rich either forgot or didn't read Evermeet
Hillsfar, Sembia and Zhentil Keep seemed too incompetent.
According to all Realms writers a member of the zhentarim(or the red wizards etc) is not allowed to have a wisdom or intellect score of over 8 remember;)
Members of the harpers on the other hand ALWAYS have intellect and wisdom scores of 30 or so
Rich either forgot or didn't read Evermeet
He's been called to task on this a number of times.
He says he did read Evermeet, but just forgot that the Tree had already been used. I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt (I get the feeling he's the only WotC employee left that still likes the Realms).
I think that if he said he hadn't read the novel, it would have covered his arse better; The fact that he says he just plain forgot is very... human (and honest).
The worst I can say about Rich Baker is that his research skills need a little improvement (and mine are certainly no prize either) - thats a whole lot better then what I can say about other folks.
I just wish he wouldn't use-up so many friggin' plothooks!
The hero and savor of the book follows his heart and then gets crushed by his love. There is no justification for it!
I noticed, even in the first book IIRC, evidence that Araevin and Ilsevele weren't really in love. It seemed to me like they were "going through the motions" more than anything.
As for the trilogy itself? Didn't care for it--some other posts have already touched on what I didn't like about it.
How about this; I saw it coming, it fit the story and the characters involved and it ended the way it was supposed to.
In my realms the elf eater was summoned into the midst of the elven crusade. Then the forces of shade mopped up the stragglers. Now shade controls the dales, and sembia.
Shhhh, better not give the designers any ideas.
The retaking of Myth Drannor should've been a trilogy unto itself, NOT just 1/2 of the third book in a trilogy :/ I mean, when it fell, THOUSANDS of beings died, and the mythal was at, what, 1/2 strength? In this series we have less than 10,000 critters retaking the city...there were probably 10,000 critters in ancient Myth Drannors vanguard :/ BEYOND the fey'ri and Ole Mak thre were: phaerimm, sharn, dragons, beholders, demons, devils, drow, evil human groups, evil humanoid groups, various undead critters (including lich), various elemental critters...ALL in GREAT numbers. Hell, the 50 or so phaerimm would have been enough to destroy that army, about 1/2 less than what laid waste to Evereska and it's mythal.
And the Him-High-New-Demigod-Big-Cheese-In-Elf-Clothing-Single-Caster- Throwing-High-Magic-Rituals-Around-Like-Pretzels main critter...it's no wonder people scream and whine about iconic critters in novels. That whole part, to me, felt seriously out of whack and thought up just to write this series.
Besides those two points, story was pretty good. If you were surprised how the Luvvvvv Connection turned out, you must've not read the first book too well...knew the lil emo demigod wasn't gonna get it in the end. When that much is made of the main critter, you know it won't turn out that good in the end...actually surprised he was allowed to live. That is, until 4ed came out
And from a gaming standpoint along with a pure logical approach it is infeasable for 10 thousand elves to capture such a grand, yet impossibly overrun city such as Myth Drannor. It's hard to figure out how Sarah did it. Even with her many alliances I don't see all those Dragons and Liches just standing around and letting a few thousand daemonfey to take back the long abandond palace of elven history.
No, I agree. The only thing that possibly suprised me more than Aravien losing whatsherface is the fact he didn't die.
-Proverbially, he died. The Elf who was Araevin Teshurr ceased to exist, and the Elf-Eladrin thing (Eladree) who came to become Araevin Teshurr came into being. In a sense, the Elf-Eladrin thing (Eladree) who came to become Araevin Teshurr betrayed and murdered the Elf who was Araevin Teshurr...
-Proverbially, he died. The Elf who was Araevin Teshurr ceased to exist, and the Elf-Eladrin thing (Eladree) who came to become Araevin Teshurr came into being. In a sense, the Elf-Eladrin thing (Eladree) who came to become Araevin Teshurr betrayed and murdered the Elf who was Araevin Teshurr...
Haha, I was just thinking about that.
-Proverbially, he died. The Elf who was Araevin Teshurr ceased to exist, and the Elf-Eladrin thing (Eladree) who came to become Araevin Teshurr came into being. In a sense, the Elf-Eladrin thing (Eladree) who came to become Araevin Teshurr betrayed and murdered the Elf who was Araevin Teshurr...
How... zin-like of you... hahaha.
'High' Elves were Eladrin from the beginning, but when the Elves cast the Sundering ritual, they changed Toril's history, and therefore their own. The spell reached backwards and forwards in time! From that point forward, they truly thought they were 'Elves', and so did everyone else.
What that High Magic Ritual did was 'lock onto' a piece of the past when the world was already being traumatically thrust apart - the time when Ao seperated Toril and Abeir. At that precise instant (in the past), Evermeet was created, and it appeared on the Torillian half of the now-seperated worlds. The spell itself couldn't just create something from nothing - thats deity-level magic - so it stole a piece of Faerie for it's spell, which weakened Faerie itself and caused Tintageer to sink beneath the waves (for every action, there is a reaction, the Butterfly effect, Yin & Yang, etc..)
When they changed the world (or in this version, altered Ao's 're-making'), they changed their own history. Then, when Mystra died and the Spellplague hit, the Universe 'snapped back' to the way things were meant to be, and pieces of Abeir got mixed into pieces of Toril, and a small piece of Faerie went back to where it belonged.
And at that moment, the Eladrin remembered who they were, and where they belonged. The false history they created with their High-Magic Ritual was un-done, and the true history of the world was layed bare.
See?
You can use the friggin' Spellplague to explain ANYTHING. :D
Good work!
Edit: And in all honesy, I've been a supporter of the Spellplague for awhile - I'm one of the few pople who insist it is 3e lore (appearing at the end of the GHOtR). It's only the events that happened after 1385 DR I have a problem with.
I'm on a 'pro-4e' kick ATM. ;)
Edit: And in all honesy, I've been a supporter of the Spellplague for awhile - I'm one of the few pople who insist it is 3e lore (appearing at the end of the GHOtR). It's only the events that happened after 1385 DR I have a problem with.
Well, hopefully you can walk away from this 'kick' with a good taste in your mouth.
:P ;)
I made it up. :P
-You said, for example, that the spell took a piece of Faerie and "put" it on the planet. This is an error, on your part. It was Arvandor that was "taken", confirmed in numerous sourcebooks, not Faerie.
Arvandor = Eladrin sector of Feywild
Faerie = district within Arvandar
Tintageer = Island/City located in Faerie
Ergo, the Feywild is like a world, and Arvandor is like a country, and Faerie is like a state, and Tintageer is Staten Island. :P
You really need to learn how to speak Abeira-plaguanese, LK. :D
Feywild = Home-Plane of the Fey
Arvandor = Eladrin sector of Feywild
Faerie = district within Arvandar
Tintageer = Island/City located in Faerie
-Two things:
(A) Arvandor is not, and never was, a part of the Plane of Faerie. Arvandor always has been, and continues to be, a plane of its own, separate from the Plane of Faerie.
(B) The term 'Feywild' and 'Plane of Faerie' are synonymous. As such, they do not describe two different places, or rather, one is not a subset of the other.
(A) Arvandor is not, and never was, a part of the Plane of Faerie. Arvandor always has been, and continues to be, a plane of its own, separate from the Plane of Faerie.
(B) The term 'Feywild' and 'Plane of Faerie' are synonymous. As such, they do not describe two different places, or rather, one is not a subset of the other.
Considering how many things we 'knew' to be true just two years ago that we have now found were false, we have it on good authority that we can trust in NONE of the previous lore as being accurate.
I can't find anything that says sepcifically where Arvandor is in 4e (which is current, and therefore takes precedence over established lore), buuuuuut his 'servants' are called Feywardens....
Yeah... because something with a name like that would live somehwere other then the Feywild...
Do not believe the lies told by Sages of the past - open your eyes to the truth we now know.
Also, you say that Evermeet was part of Arvandor (as it says in the GHotR), and yet... it 'returned' to the Feywild. Hmmm... hmmm.. hmmmmm...
It seems fairly obvious to me that Arvandor and the Feywild are connected somehow, and could even be one and the same.
Edit: Ack! I did it again... I found proof disagreing with my argument - the 4e section on 'Corellon's Grove' specifically makes it clear that Evermeet is not in Arvandor (although I still contend that BOTH could be in the Feywild).
On the other hand, Eric Boyd is a Freelancer, and perhaps he was unaware of some of the 4e changes when he wrote that 3e GHotR vingette - ALL 3e lore is now suspect.
Edit2: Also note that that vingette was written as conjecture by an Elven scholar nearly 19,000 years AFTER the incident took place.
That's only because it wasn't fully understood before. Let 4e open your eyes to see how things really are. :P
-Yeah, really. I'll have what some of he's having...
I can't find anything that says sepcifically where Arvandor is in 4e (which is current, and therefore takes precedence over established lore), buuuuuut his 'servants' are called Feywardens....
Yeah... because something with a name like that would live somehwere other then the Feywild...
-Corellon Larethian's priests and priestess' (2e specialty priests) have always been known as Feywardens. If you look at the creatures that serve Corellon Larethian, a great deal of Fey and Sylvan creatures do so.
-I take it, though, since New England has the word 'England' in it, it must be in England, right?
Also, you say that Evermeet was part of Arvandor (as it says in the GHotR), and yet... it 'returned' to the Feywild. Hmmm... hmmm.. hmmmmm...
-Are we seriously going to get into a discussion/debate about the...quality, for a lack of better terms (or the lack thereof, perhaps) of 4e Forgotten Realms lore? Because, that's not a very good tree to go barking up, so to speak, from the position of defending/justifying much of it.
As to your New England/England thing, I'm glad to see you're getting with the 4e vibe and understanding how the world really works. Oh, yeah, and mind the tentacles, they can make things a little slippery when they get going.
:D
Really, old-timer... get your mind out of the stoneage and explore the limitless possibilites of 4e. :D
4E Realms is a blank canvas perfect for those DMs who prefer an uncluttered setting. ;)
Glad to see you're coming along as well.
;) :P :D
Considering how many things we 'knew' to be true just two years ago that we have now found were false, we have it on good authority that we can trust in NONE of the previous lore as being accurate.
I can't find anything that says sepcifically where Arvandor is in 4e (which is current, and therefore takes precedence over established lore), buuuuuut his 'servants' are called Feywardens....
The realm Arvandor resides in the Astral Sea with other Deific spaces as described in the DMG. Feywild is not in the Astral Sea (rather its opposite to the Shadowfell), and a separate space in the cosmos with close connections/portals/etc. to Arvandor.
The DMG is wrong... you can't trust anything in print these days.
-I take it, though, since New England has the word 'England' in it, it must be in England, right?
Glad to see we're finally on the same page - New England is obviously in England, because it isn't in New York... and we both know absolutely NOTHING important exists outside of NY. :D
"Waaahhhhh... they ruined our city.. let's RETREAT..."
Several decades later....
"Waaaahhhh... this Island is boring... let's go back... "
Have I mentioned how much I HATE Elves?
There ya' go.
The DMG is wrong... you can't trust anything in print these days.
Glad to see we're finally on the same page - New England is obviously in England, because it isn't in New York... and we both know absolutely NOTHING important exists outside of NY. :D
And as we all know, York is in England, so New York must be in England as well. :P
-It's very rare that this smiley gets use, but it works perfectly here:
"Waaahhhhh... they ruined our city.. let's RETREAT..."
Several decades later....
"Waaaahhhh... this Island is boring... let's go back... "
Have I mentioned how much I HATE Elves?
They should have only retreated slightly to re-group and then attempt a counter-offensive. Ever since I've started reading the Realms (late 2e and all of 3e) I felt that the elves were molded too much after the Tolkien elves who are always trying to get away from it all. To me, that didn't seem original and a knock off to say the least. I for one am glad they re-took Myth Drannor and actually shook off some of the pre-determined shackles set when the game and Realms were created.
The complaining of Myth Drannor being retaken, that it somehow destroys a great place to adventure in is incorrect. You have Myth Drannor, refounded, beseiged by both the Zhentarim and the Shades. You have all of the Dales having to adjust to a new power on the scene. You have Drow coming up from the Underdark to thwart the rebuilding of Myth Drannor. That seems like a few ideas.
Or at least that is how I feel.
To me, it just seems annoying that so many old empires came back at the same time.
Sure they aren't racist... you keep telling yourself that spunky. :P
No, LK is correct but he is playing with semantics. :P
Elves, as a whole, aren't inherently racist...
This is true. They are no more inherently racist than any drow or orc or human. It is learned behavior. And well, the elves have a long enough lifespan to learn a lot of it.
Though to be fair, from my reading, the Sun Elves can take credit for the worst of it. However, I do believe that all the subraces (when their culture is being portrayed rather than individuals...) have been portrayed as condescending and somewhat xenophobic.
That said, I wouldn't presume to believe that most do or that most elves and eladrin feel that way toward other humanoids. But, truly, enough do to give others the perception that they are like that.
-I don't understand why people have trouble understanding that mindset. To put it in more layman terms, I guess, being an Elf is like being in an exclusive club. If you don't, for whatever reason, meet the prerequisites, you don't get to be in the club.
Actually, that more or less sums up what racism effectively is (although of course, it's a very complicated topic).
I wanted more Araevin after he recieved the kiss. I hated how he was osteracised by the all compasionate elves...
Eh, as far as I recall, he really wasn't--at least, he wasn't ostracized by the elves that actually mattered to the story and Araevin reaching his goals.
I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing, mind you. It's one reason, that I can recall, why I thought Araevin's "sacrifice" of his "elfhood" was rather shallow and not much of a "sacrifice" (it's not a sacrifice if you don't really lose anything*).
*And no, he did NOT lose Isevele as a result. They were clearly drifting apart before the end of book 2 and IMO were ready to break up even if he had never become a celestial.
As for him getting left by Iresevle, that is understandable. And I knew it was going to happen. I even knew she was drifting towards Fflar, but that still doesn't mean he shouldn't be the least bit irked by her leaving so suddenly and falling into ancient arms of the Swordsman in all of twoweeks. I'd feel a little jipped after the 19someodd years of courtship... They didn't even attempt to follow tradition...
And when do we get to hear more about Araevin anywho?
That's why they changed the Realms to begin with...the new authors couldn't come up with stories because of too many iconic critters already running around so they had to get rid of them (100 year jump). Kinda funny that the 2 most hated critters are STILL around :/
Oh, and to clear the air, I always thought that was a little "out there" also. I mean a good axe and a flaming dwarf make good tools of war but a good axe, a flaming dwarf, and a 100+ foot fall shouldn't be able to kill an Ancient Shadow Dragon. Maybe a good axe, a flaming dwarf PC striker with 20 healing surges on a god-sized spit with one Martial power source power or another, a 100+ foot fall, AND cookies could do it, but nothing less. Also had qualms with the other demigod pointy-eared critter that restructured a Mythal all by hims lonesomes...while being gobbled on by the ENITIRE phaerimm race (or most of them).
And that's not racist in the slightest... of couse not. :P
-No, it's not. Anyone who is an Elf is an Elf. Anyone who is not an Elf is N'Tel'Quessir, a "Not Elf". It's not a derogatory term, it's a truth: Anyone/anything that is not an Elf is not an Elf.
-No, it's not. Anyone who is an Elf is an Elf. Anyone who is not an Elf is N'Tel'Quessir, a "Not Elf". It's not a derogatory term, it's a truth: Anyone/anything that is not an Elf is not an Elf.
This is factually incorrect. N'Tel'Quessir means 'not people', which is often used in a derogatory manner.
Not all elves/eladrin are racist, but many are and (of those) not all of them are aware of their racism.
This is factually incorrect. N'Tel'Quessir means 'not people', which is often used in a derogatory manner.
-'The People', in Elven, refers to Elves.
-The term 'N'Tel'Quessir' means, 'Not People', with Elves being the people in reference. When people incorrectly translate the term 'people' as 'living, sentient, individuals with a sense of worth', as you are doing there to get the term as something offensive, they are translating it incorrectly. The term is as inherently valueless as calling a dog not a Human is; Dogs aren't Humans, and Humans aren't Dogs. A person can call another person a dog, or not a dog, and thereby insult them, but that does not somehow mean that the English language, when using those words in that combination, is inherently offensive.
Many Eladrin/Elves use the saying in a derogatory manner.
-Correct. That doesn't make Elves, their language, or appellations given to others inherently racist, however. 'N'Tel'Quessir' is not a racist term.
-Correct. That doesn't make Elves, their language, or appellations given to others inherently racist, however. 'N'Tel'Quessir' is not a racist term.
No one ever claimed it was 'inherently racist'. I said it is used they way by some. I'm not seeing how your stance is different from mine?
No one ever claimed it was 'inherently racist'.
-Both yourself and Stigger felt that Elves delegating individuals into two categories, Tel'Quessir and N'Tel'Quessir, 'Elf' and 'Not Elf', 'The People' and 'Not The People' was racist.
And that's not racist in the slightest... of couse not. :P
It is racist, and, the fact that they don't see it is part of who they are.
-Both yourself and Stigger felt that Elves delegating individuals into two categories, Tel'Quessir and N'Tel'Quessir, 'Elf' and 'Not Elf', 'The People' and 'Not The People' was racist.
Yes, taking a part of a post from the rest, as well as not listening to anything I'm posting before and after, can be misconstrued as my saying it is completely racist.
I agree with the fact that elves have learned to be alittle ousting of other races and that even will usually benifit from it, but the fact that a former elf and leader, and well hero of the race is ostracized because of a transformation which he only does to help further the people. Now I know you'd say it wasn't that big of a sacrifice but it was a sacrifice none the less and one that cost him his homesake, no matter how little that meant to him.
Remember that Araevin was already annoying the High Mages thanks to his lack of patience. If he was indeed "ostracized" (and I'll repeat that it wasn't that obvious to me), he deserves some "credit" for helping it along.
Also, I believe the GHotR makes mention of Araevin adventuring with Prince Lamruil. Hobnobing with the prince of Evermeet makes him seem like a lot less of an outcast to me. And that's not even taking into account Araevin being made Grand Mage of Myth Drannor (or whatever the title was).
Ostracized outcast, my ass. He got off pretty easy.
Yes, taking a part of a post from the rest, as well as not listening to anything I'm posting before and after, can be misconstrued as my saying it is completely racist.
-Nothing is being misconstrued. On the topic of Elves classifying others into two groups, with those who are not Elves being categorized into a group separate from Elves, you said, "It is racist."
-Nothing is being misconstrued. On the topic of Elves classifying others into two groups, with those who are not Elves being categorized into a group separate from Elves, you said, "It is racist."
Again, reading the entirety of my post is advisable. I'll help you out here, since you seem to be having trouble (or intentionally?) misunderstanding what I wrote.
You wrote:
-I don't understand why people have trouble understanding that mindset. To put it in more layman terms, I guess, being an Elf is like being in an exclusive club. If you don't, for whatever reason, meet the prerequisites, you don't get to be in the club.
To which I replied:
It is racist, and, the fact that they don't see it is part of who they are. Hell, many of them are racist against their own kind. A great many Sun elves think they are above all others of their own kin.
That said, I wouldn't presume to believe that most do or that most elves and eladrin feel that way toward other humanoids. But, truly, enough do to give others the perception that they are like that.
Taking just the first part of my first sentence, then using it out of context, IS misconstruing what I posted.
Now (hopefully) you understand?
That said, I wouldn't presume to believe that most do or that most elves and eladrin feel that way toward other humanoids.
-That is indeed the mainstream viewpoint of Elven society towards others; How is that racist? Things that are Elves are Elves. Things that are not Elves are not Elves. Why would things that are not Elves be Elves, and things that are Elves be not Elves?
-That is indeed the mainstream viewpoint of Elven society toward others; How is that racist? Things that are Elves are Elves. Things that are not Elves are not Elves. Why would things that are not Elves be Elves, and things that are Elves be not Elves?
Being in an 'exclusive club' as a race is looking at yourself as better or apart from the ones not in the club. Eladrin/Elves, as a whole, do not, generally, view themselves to be better then other humanoids.
Some do. They take that 'exclusive club' mentality and, knowingly or otherwise, consider themselves better then other races.
That is racist.
Remember that Araevin was already annoying the High Mages thanks to his lack of patience. If he was indeed "ostracized" (and I'll repeat that it wasn't that obvious to me), he deserves some "credit" for helping it along.
Also, I believe the GHotR makes mention of Araevin adventuring with Prince Lamruil. Hobnobing with the prince of Evermeet makes him seem like a lot less of an outcast to me. And that's not even taking into account Araevin being made Grand Mage of Myth Drannor (or whatever the title was).
Ostracized outcast, my ass. He got off pretty easy.
After the war I believe that to be true. But in the heat of the moment they basicly tell him to sit quietly and twittle his thumbs while the big boys finally get off their tails to see what the hubbub is about. Not to mention he is asked not to come back to Evermeet. And they have no other reason to ask him to stay away than for his transformation. I'm still not sure if he's been given the sayso to come back.. there's been no offical mention but I'm sure he has.
Oh and as to the secondary banter above, I'd wager to say that every elf is inherently racist to some level, in that they have preconception of another race. Most with no conntact with the humans would say they are a busy race who procriate to quickly and don't leave well-enoug alone.
With that in mind I don't believe there is a racist elf as much as an ignorant one. Though some people would say all racist are ignorant...
When we get down to brass tax though, it seems that it is with the elven cultures as it is with all other cultures. They all have their ignorant people and then they have the people willing to look past a racial subdivide.
Being in an 'exclusive club' as a race is looking at yourself as better or apart from the ones not in the club. Eladrin/Elves, as a whole, do not, generally, view themselves to be better then other humanoids.
Some do. They take that 'exclusive club' mentality and, knowingly or otherwise, consider themselves better then other races.
That is racist.
-So, grouping yourself as apart from those who are not of your race is racist you'd say? To say that you are a Human, and not a cat wouldn't be racist though, right? That is putting "Humans" in that proverbial exclusive club, and looking at cats as things apart from other Humans in that proverbial exclusive club. Since Humans and cats are obviously different things, let's examine only Humans. To say that you are, I don't know, Mongolian, and not Romanian, would this be racist? You are taking those who share your theoretical heritage, other Mongolians, and placing them in a group, not allowing Romanians into that group because they do not share the same theoretical heritage.
-To say that Mongilians are inherently better than Romanians, now that is racist, and that's how genocide starts. The linguistics of Elven does not do that, however.
-Tel'Quessir means 'People', not as in 'individuals whose lives have meaningful purposes', or whatever definition you want to assign to 'People', but rather 'People like us'. Elves. N'Tel'Quessir means 'Not People', not as in 'individuals whose lives don't have meaningful purposes', bur rather, 'People who are not like us'. Not Elves. Certain Indian tribes and aboriginal tribes in the Americas and South Asia have/had similar terms, I believe.
-The term is no more racist that the earlier example of calling a Human not a cat, or a Mongolian not a Romanian.
-Believing yourself, or others like you to be superior to others, because of your race and their race, is indeed racist. The terminology in Elven isn't inherently racist, however. It's as neutral as saying that Mongolians aren't Romanians, or Humans aren't cats. Looking at something as apart from other somethings that aren't exactly the same is not racist.
-Believing yourself, or others like you to be superior to others, because of your race and their race, is indeed racist. The terminology in Elven isn't inherently racist, however. It's as neutral as saying that Mongolians aren't Romanians, or Humans aren't cats. Looking at something as apart from other somethings that aren't exactly the same is not racist.
Agreed.
However, are you going to disagree and say that when such a term is referenced in the lore (specifically with respect to the phrase and indirectly when referring to how elves looking upon those who are not elves) it is not normally referring to elven elitism? The point is that if elves over and over look with disrespect upon those who are 'not elves' I have difficulty believing that the term used to represent those who are not elves can be anything but derogatory in its everyday use.
Throughout history, the heights of elven elitism and arrogance: the sundering which created Evermeet (how many died...), the fact that no one but elves were allowed in Evermeet, the destruction of Jhamdath (the psionic cities, whatever they were...), the extreme elitism evident in Elminster in Myth Drannor, the elitism evident in the LAst Mythal Trilogy, and on, and on...
However, are you going to disagree and say that when such a term is referenced in the lore (specifically with respect to the phrase and indirectly when referring to how elves looking upon those who are not elves) it is not normally referring to elven elitism? The point is that if elves over and over look with disrespect upon those who are 'not elves' I have difficulty believing that the term used to represent those who are not elves can be anything but derogatory in its everyday use.
-No, the term is not inherently linked with Elven racism. Elves can be, and are often racist, just like other races, but the terms themselves are not racist. If someone looks at someone else and calls them a dog, is comparing Humans and dogs inherently racist? Can scientists not compare and contrast Humans and canines without being accused of racism? Of course not. It is how something is used, not what is specifically said. When an Elf uses the term N'Tel'Quessir, to denote Elves and races that are not Elves, there is nothing inherently wrong. When an Elf uses the term in a demeaning manner, then the Elf in question is (seemingly) engaging in racism.
...the fact that no one but elves were allowed in Evermeet...
-It's "their" clubhouse, and they can rightly decide who is allowed to enter, and who is not. I am male, and I don't begrudge the fact that "Curves", the women-only gym is women only. It's their prerogative.
...the destruction of Jhamdath (the psionic cities, whatever they were...)...
-Jhaamdath, which was waging war on the Elves of the Vilhon Reach, let's not forget. Borderline genocide was taking place, when the militaristic despot leading Jhaamdath authorized illegal logging and the slaughter of the Elves who attempted to stop such behavior. People like to forget that part. The Elves' reaction was a bit heavy handed, but was warranted.
-So, grouping yourself as apart from those who are not of your race is racist you'd say?
No, I did not say that.
To say that you are a Human, and not a cat wouldn't be racist though, right?
I suppose it depends on the context it is used in, doesn't it?
That is putting "Humans" in that proverbial exclusive club, and looking at cats as things apart from other Humans in that proverbial exclusive club.
Not really. That is putting humans as different. If, using your term 'exclusive club', humans consider that cats, who are not in this club, are lesser creatures for not being in said club, then yes, that is racist.
Not that that makes any sense, by w/e.
Since Humans and cats are obviously different things, let's examine only Humans.
Thank the maker! I so detest speaking of those non-membered cats!
To say that you are, I don't know, Mongolian, and not Romanian, would this be racist? You are taking those who share your theoretical heritage, other Mongolians, and placing them in a group, not allowing Romanians into that group because they do not share the same theoretical heritage.
Again, it depends on the context and usage, does it not?
-To say that Mongilians are inherently better than Romanians, now that is racist, and that's how genocide starts. The linguistics of Elven does not do that, however.
Some do, some don't. But you are (mostly) correct here.
-Tel'Quessir means 'People', not as in 'individuals whose lives have meaningful purposes', or whatever definition you want to assign to 'People', but rather 'People like us'. Elves. N'Tel'Quessir means 'Not People', not as in 'individuals whose lives don't have meaningful purposes', bur rather, 'People who are not like us'. Not Elves. Certain Indian tribes and aboriginal tribes in the Americas and South Asia have/had similar terms, I believe.
That has nothing to do with the fact that it can, and has been, used in a derogatory fashion in a racist manner. I never said it was inherently that way, just that it has been used that way.
-The term is no more racist that the earlier example of calling a Human not a cat, or a Mongolian not a Romanian.
No one said otherwise...
-Believing yourself, or others like you to be superior to others, because of your race and their race, is indeed racist.
Finally! I'm glad you see my point.
The terminology in Elven isn't inherently racist, however. It's as neutral as saying that Mongolians aren't Romanians, or Humans aren't cats. Looking at something as apart from other somethings that aren't exactly the same is not racist.
Funny, you keep saying this and I keep saying I've never said otherwise.
About this:
However, are you going to disagree and say that when such a term is referenced in the lore (specifically with respect to the phrase and indirectly when referring to how elves looking upon those who are not elves) it is not normally referring to elven elitism? The point is that if elves over and over look with disrespect upon those who are 'not elves' I have difficulty believing that the term used to represent those who are not elves can be anything but derogatory in its everyday use.
Thank you, I'm glad someone else understands.
Throughout history, the heights of elven elitism and arrogance: the sundering which created Evermeet (how many died...), the fact that no one but elves were allowed in Evermeet, the destruction of Jhamdath (the psionic cities, whatever they were...), the extreme elitism evident in Elminster in Myth Drannor, the elitism evident in the LAst Mythal Trilogy, and on, and on...
Indeed.
-Both yourself and Stigger felt that Elves delegating individuals into two categories, Tel'Quessir and N'Tel'Quessir, 'Elf' and 'Not Elf', 'The People' and 'Not The People' was racist.
Whoah, whoah, whoah... hold your horses there bucko. I never said, in this thread anyway, that N'Tel'Quess was inherently racist. I have in jest, mostly to irk Dan and you, but that was in other threads, and never seriously. I completely understand its meaning and context, and has nothing to do with my feelings that elves, especially the Golds, are racist bastards. That I base on their history with the other races, and even other subraces of elves, not on their language. Given their history, you don't even need to start pointing at their language, which wouldn't hold much water anyway, to make the racism case. The history of Myth Drannor (see how I steered that back to topic ;)) is enough to damn them as it is, with lots more to add icing to the cake...
In regards to Jhaamdath though, they bloody well asked for it. They (the Jhaamdathans) wiped out somewhere near 90% of the elven population and a large percentage of the forests satyr population as well... the humans started the conflict, went for a genocidal end, and got the same treatment back. Fairs fair in that case. What wasn't fair about that particular conflict was the destruction of the sea elven kindgom off the Jhaamdathan coast, as they had nothing to do with the conflict and were quite literally innocents caught in the crossfire.
Whoah, whoah, whoah... hold your horses there bucko. I never said, in this thread anyway, that N'Tel'Quess was inherently racist. I have in jest, mostly to irk Dan and you, but that was in other threads, and never seriously.
Therefore, you have said it
*beats Merrik with a spork* :P
not again
boy, you don't know me at all