This lead to talk about how the Feywild came into the Realms.
So, I got to thinking about it. Here’s my non-canon guess at the backstory behind the Feywild coming to the Realms:
Basically, the Elven Pantheon (lead by Corellon Larethian) were forced to expend a portion of their divine power to bring the Feywild into close proximity with the Realms to in order to keep the elven races alive after the loss of the Weave when Mystra was killed.
The Feywild then acted as a natural substitute for the Weave, nourishing the elves both spiritually and magically in the manner the Weave once did.
The absence of the Weave and proximity of the Feywild could then explain why Eladrin can use Fey Step, because of their divinely given link to it.
Again, just my own rumination. But if I’m right I want a cookie from all of you.
;)
And if MarkusTay already thought this up.....give him my cookies.
in a grand history fo the realms p.8, -25400
"Fleeing the destruction of the island kingdom of tintageer on thier home world of faerie, s small circle of gold elves..."
I was under the impression the gold elves = Eladrin
from the PHB p. 39
Eladrin are close cousins to the elves and are occa-
sionally called high elves or gray elves
thus the eladrin are jsut the gold elves, and the "elves" are the green elves
so if that is so, then faerie == feywild
I think what you're saying supports the idea of how the Feywild might have become 'closer' to the Forgotten Realms, in a manner similar to how Shar folded the Plane of Shadow into the Shadowfell.
I do think it has to do with an elven crisis though (perhaps something with to do with evermeet)
Across the Sea of Swords, the Moonshaes have fallen into a patchwork of small kingdoms. The Feywild, the realm of Faerie, lies close to Faerun here, and from its shadows a dire new threat is gathering—the terrible fomorians, who dream of sweeping away the human kingdoms and subjugating the islands beneath their mighty fists.
Near-mythical realms that had passed beyond easy reach were pulled back, such as the Feywild (called Faerie in ancient days).
Bel
so is the "closer" effect caused by this ->
Over on the Eladrin in the Realms? thread we got to talking about the Feywild and how it allows Eladrin to perform the equivalent of a Dimension Door through their Fey Step racial power.
This lead to talk about how the Feywild came into the Realms.
So, I got to thinking about it. Here’s my non-canon guess at the backstory behind the Feywild coming to the Realms:
Basically, the Elven Pantheon (lead by Corellon Larethian) were forced to expend a portion of their divine power to bring the Feywild into close proximity with the Realms to in order to keep the elven races alive after the loss of the Weave when Mystra was killed.
The Feywild then acted as a natural substitute for the Weave, nourishing the elves both spiritually and magically in the manner the Weave once did.
The absence of the Weave and proximity of the Feywild could then explain why Eladrin can use Fey Step, because of their divinely given link to it.
Again, just my own rumination. But if I’m right I want a cookie from all of you.
;)
And if MarkusTay already thought this up.....give him my cookies.
Nice ideas, and ones that I have thought of at time. I always liked the idea of Faerie stepping in as a substitute for the Weave after its destruction and in the aftermath I think for spellcasters of all races the Feywild and the Shadowfell effectively replace the Weave and Shadowweave. This can explain the new proximity these planes have to Faerun and why parts of them are manifesting in areas like the Moonshaes.
This could also explain why in core Corellon's role has expanded into that of a god of magic for all races, and this could be played out into the Realms as well.
ah hah! well that shows the "pulled closer" idea to be true...
The quoted Realms articles were from months back, btw.
so is the "closer" effect caused by this ->
"The Feywild, the realm of Faerie..."
-As discussed, the Spellplague simply makes it comes "closer", whatever that means, however one "measures" these things. The planar barriers are simply weaker, I guess. Being a plane that is cointerminous (or whatever that word is), it's always existed with weak planar boundaries. Now they've weakened even more.
Even the long forgotten world of (it said Toril, but I think they meant Abeir), burned in the plague of spells, despite having been unreachable and cut off from Faerûn for tens of millennia. Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril in the disaster. Such landscapes included their living populations, and thus places such as Akanûl and Tymanther lie as if new-birthed on Faerûn’s face. Across the Trackless Sea, and entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica.
If the spellplague reached the unreachable Abeir, then moving a few planes around should be easy.
Bel
-Nice ideas, and ones that I have thought of at time.
Thank you! And it's nice to know I'm in good company when it comes to these sorts of things.
I always liked the idea of Faerie stepping in as a substitute for the Weave after its destruction...
The idea is still new to me (less than a day old) but I like it more and more.
This is because we already know where the elves came from. So the notion they could 'go back' to that place fits.
I like trying to anticipate how the designers might do things or make things fit. It's fun the "who guessed it first" game.
-As discussed, the Spellplague simply makes it comes "closer", whatever that means,
...precisely, but the "whatever that means" is explained by Corellon's (possible) intervention.
I wouldn't consider the idea as sound if it wasn't for the (canon --whoa, I just used that most hated of terms, but there you go) fact that Shar did something similar with the Shadowfell.
But we'll see for sure once the FRCG hits the shelves!
...precisely, but the "whatever that means" is explained by Corellon's (possible) intervention.
-No...I meant that as in, because of the fact that Planes are...metaphysical things, terms such as "closer", "father", and so on and so forth aren't literal, necessarily, nor can they be quantified.
-And, being as that it is relevant, Corellon Larethian has little power over the Plane of Faerie itself. The most powerful entity- and mind you, the plane does not have a single, unified "leader"/"possessor"- would be the leader of the Seelie Court, Titania.
The most powerful entity- and mind you, the plane does not have a single, unified "leader"/"possessor"- would be the leader of the Seelie Court, Titania.
Hrmm.....makes me wonder what type of power Titania is.
Would she exact a heavy price to aid the elven gods?
Hrmm.....makes me wonder what type of power Titania is.
Would she exact a heavy price to aid the elven gods?
Remember the seat of power of the Seldarine is Arvandor, not the Feywild, so Titania would have whatever power entities such as demon lords and archdevils do on their homeplanes. She makes the rules there, not Corellon.
Hrmm.....makes me wonder what type of power Titania is.
-A normal ol' deity. A Greater Deity, in all likelihood, being the head of a pantheon.
Would she exact a heavy price to aid the elven gods?
-No, the two are close allies.
-The "Feywild" is the Plane of Faerie
It makes a certain amount of sense, regardless of what cosmology you care to use with your own FR campaigns. Both using the 4e feywild and a non-4e (demi)plane of Faerie it's pretty easy to justify, conceptually speaking, weak points between its borders and those of the material plane. No retcon needed, you could have the spellplague having disrupted the border ethereal in a specific manner, allowing such tangent connections between Toril and Faerie to appear even spontaneously. It such a manner it wouldn't affect any worlds beyond Toril itself (though its residents might certainly assume such given their local perspective on the planes), so you could have apparent cosmology changes relative to Toril looking out to the planes, without any radical changes to the planes at large.
-No, the two are close allies.
Being allies, do you suppose she'd agree to help Corellon?
Or maybe instead she'd declare a request of that sort as a boundary she would never cross?
-IIRC didnt worlds and monsters say that their was a new ruler of the Feywild.
18DELTA :embarrass
Being allies, do you suppose she'd agree to help Corellon?
-That's what friends are for.
-What if The Seelie/Unseelie Courts don't exist in 4E?
-As we knew them (2e materials), they don't.
-IIRC didnt worlds and monsters say that their was a new ruler of the Feywild.
-Yes, yes it did. Rin brought it up, and I asked Rich. He answered, and it was some new individual, but I don't remember the name. If I recall correctly, he said that Titania and Oberon were "removed" because they too much resembled actual, Shakespearian fantasy, which is something the designers did not want.
Yes, yes it did. Rin brought it up, and I asked Rich. He answered, and it was some new individual, but I don't remember the name. If I recall correctly, he said that Titania and Oberon were "removed" because they too much resembled actual, Shakespearian fantasy, which is something the designers did not want.
King Oran and Queen Tiandra, wow how different.
Bel
King Oran and Queen Tiandra, wow how different.
-Those names mean nothing to me...Are they from something else, like Titania and Oberon were? Or, it is the fact that they are very similar to 'Titania' and 'Oberon'?
18DELTA ;)
-That right WotC doesn't want to infringe on Shakespears IP's huh. I would hate for him to sue WotC from beyond the grave over an IP issue.
18DELTA ;)
-Shakespeare is public domain, if I recall correctly. But, the reason I think was because they wanted to separate it from more established viewpoints on the subject matter.
-That's what friends are for.
.
Or secret bedmates.;)
Quale, I've never heard the name Ladinion before, where'd you get that one?
Or secret bedmates.;)
-Maybe, maybe not. Corellon Larethian is, after all androgynous, while Queen Titania is quite female. Both also already have consorts, so...Not that that really means anything, though. Both Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow have had trysts, so...
-Maybe, maybe not. Corellon Larethian is, after all androgynous, while Queen Titania is quite female. Both also already have consorts, so...Not that that really means anything, though. Both Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow have had trysts, so...
Yeah, they are fey after all, and we all know the stereotypes associated with that group of creatures.
-Stereotypes? No, that's the kind of free stuff that they do.
I would say Chaotic Good behavior but...that alignment is kind of gone.
-It's just plain 'ol vanilla 'Good' now.
Supposedly good is a blend between neutral and chaotic good tendencies. Or maybe they just simplified the whole alignment sysem not because anything was wrong but rather to pretend to be "advancing" the system.
Or maybe they just simplified the whole alignment sysem...
-That. There's LG-G-Unaligned-E-CE. Rather than 'Lawful Good' and 'Chaotic Evil', I'd rather see something like 'Exalted' and 'Vile'.
-Shakespeare is public domain, if I recall correctly. But, the reason I think was because they wanted to separate it from more established viewpoints on the subject matter.
-Hey, I was trying to be negative here, so quit being so positive. :P I was trying to make it all about $$$$$$.
It sucks that good 3rd Edition Lore is being cr@pped away. :embarrass 18DELTA ;)
-Hey, I was trying to be negative here, so quit being so positive. :P
-I know. There's enough negativity with what's actually being done to the Realms that we don't need to make our own. Just sayin' ;)
-That. There's LG-G-Unaligned-E-CE. Rather than 'Lawful Good' and 'Chaotic Evil', I'd rather see something like 'Exalted' and 'Vile'.
Now that's an interesting idea! Those would make it fit better with the overall themes of adventures. If paladins were "Exalted" instead of LG, they wouldn't have to follow every law (esp. when those laws clash with "good"). And "Vile" or some other descriptor could be used for worshippers of truly evil deities - and you wouldn't have to worry about why and how all these CE worshippers "get along" in order to further the causes of their deity (or the "lawfulness" of an evil mage, given than discipline and order are essential for the study of magic, or organizing minions wo they're not all just flat-out murderously crazy).
It'd get rid of the cardboard-cutout style of looking at alignments, for those who tried to keep it more rigid than intended.
And if MarkusTay already thought this up.....give him my cookies.
Nothing directly, but it does fit-in with some of my Faerie/Fey/Elf postulations.
Show
The way I see it, Fey NEED magic to survive, as much as other races need food and water. Toril, since the beginning of time, had a close connection to the Feywild, which just so happens to be an EXCELLENT source of magic. In fact, the Feywild (called something else back then, obviously) formed a web of magical energy around Toril originally, one that was later replaced with Mystryl's Weave.
After the Incident of the Black Diamond (which I have to assume happened on Toril, considering the Fey race originated from there), the Fey left Toril for elsewhere, and we can assume they travelled directly to the source of their power (the Feywild). Once they were directly exposed to the energies of that place, they began to evolve into even more spectacular forms, and were given god-like abilites. Coupled with their already-immortal existance, many of these original Fey refuges became deities in their own right (like Titania and Oberon), whilst others became planes-hopping, enigmatic beings of incalcuable power (the LeShay).
However, in bringing their own kingdom (Faerie) into the Feywild, they upset the cosmic balance, and the Feywild fell out of conjunction with Toril. Instead of the Fey pulling their energy from the Feywild into Toril, they now tapped into it directly, thus 'damning up' the flow of Eldritch energies into the prime world.
Not all the Fey left Toril however - some adapted and found other ways to recieve their neccessary succor... form the planet itself! This is why so many fey creatures are 'bound' to certain areas or objects (like dryads to trees) - it is that link that replaces their need for magic from the Feywild. Chauntea had absorbed much of that energy into herself (forming cysts within the planet), and the native Fey were able to tap into that source.
The Eladrin were the mortal children of the Fey - it was found out too late that their immortality was granted by a strange synergy between Toril and the plane of feywild, and once they left the prime material they no longer could pass their immoratlity to their children. They eventually created their own Kingdom away from their Fey parents, on an island in the Sea of dreams, which they named Tintageer (the same name for the city, the realm, and the island), which in ancient High Elven means "New Homeland".
The next generation was even worse, for while the Eladrin could live over a thousand years, their children, the Elves, only lived a few hundred. It was decided by Titania that these third-generation Fey would not be cursed so, and thus she decreed that they would be returned to Toril so that they could live long and happy lives there. And as the saying goes, "so it is written, so it shall be", and the Fey opened hundreds of portals so that the clans of 'Wild Elves' could return to the world of their origin.
Some thousand years later, a war broke out between the Eladrin inhabitants of Tintageer and the Unseelie fey, led by their evil King and Corellon's brother, Gru'maas. This war is little known to either side today, but it was nown as the first kin-strife, and eventually the Goblyns (Unseelie Fey, who were the forebears of the Orc and Goblinoid races) were driven from the Feywild. Corellon and the other heroes of the realm ascended - much like their parents before them - and became the gods of their people.
But the cost was great, and the High Mages of Tintageer had lost much during the war, So it was that when years later unseen forces began to break apart their utopian paradise, they did not have the power to save it. Little did they know that they had brought their own doom upon themselves, from across time and future generations.
A few Eladrin managed to escape the catastrophe by re-opening one of the Elven 'escape portals' back to Toril, and so it was that Eladrin returned to Toril, just as their children two thousand years before them. They forsook the name Eladrin, feeling it was a reminder of what they once had, and called themselves by new names taken from their own offspring. They considered themselves Elves now, whilst in Exile from Faerie, and went by the names of the three great tribes that came to the world - Sun, Moon, and Star (the Star Elves had arrived from another portion of Faerie seperately, and wound up using a different portal to come to Toril).
Some Eladrin that had not wish to perish or flee instead choose to serve Titania and her court, but over the course of untold millenia, there are but few of these original, powerful Eladrin left, and some have come to serve other powers in the outer planes.
After the Incident of the Black Diamond (which I have to assume happened on Toril, considering the Fey race originated from there), the Fey left Toril for elsewhere, and we can assume they travelled directly to the source of their power (the Feywild). Once they were directly exposed to the energies of that place, they began to evolve into even more spectacular forms, and were given god-like abilites. Coupled with their already-immortal existance, many of these original Fey refuges became deities in their own right (like Titania and Oberon), whilst others became planes-hopping, enigmatic beings of incalcuable power (the LeShay).
However, in bringing their own kingdom (Faerie) into the Feywild, they upset the cosmic balance, and the Feywild fell out of conjunction with Toril. Instead of the Fey pulling their energy from the Feywild into Toril, they now tapped into it directly, thus 'damning up' the flow of Eldritch energies into the prime world.
Not all the Fey left Toril however - some adapted and found other ways to recieve their neccessary succor... form the planet itself! This is why so many fey creatures are 'bound' to certain areas or objects (like dryads to trees) - it is that link that replaces their need for magic from the Feywild. Chauntea had absorbed much of that energy into herself (forming cysts within the planet), and the native Fey were able to tap into that source.
The Eladrin were the mortal children of the Fey - it was found out too late that their immortality was granted by a strange synergy between Toril and the plane of feywild, and once they left the prime material they no longer could pass their immoratlity to their children. They eventually created their own Kingdom away from their Fey parents, on an island in the Sea of dreams, which they named Tintageer (the same name for the city, the realm, and the island), which in ancient High Elven means "New Homeland".
The next generation was even worse, for while the Eladrin could live over a thousand years, their children, the Elves, only lived a few hundred. It was decided by Titania that these third-generation Fey would not be cursed so, and thus she decreed that they would be returned to Toril so that they could live long and happy lives there. And as the saying goes, "so it is written, so it shall be", and the Fey opened hundreds of portals so that the clans of 'Wild Elves' could return to the world of their origin.
Some thousand years later, a war broke out between the Eladrin inhabitants of Tintageer and the Unseelie fey, led by their evil King and Corellon's brother, Gru'maas. This war is little known to either side today, but it was nown as the first kin-strife, and eventually the Goblyns (Unseelie Fey, who were the forebears of the Orc and Goblinoid races) were driven from the Feywild. Corellon and the other heroes of the realm ascended - much like their parents before them - and became the gods of their people.
But the cost was great, and the High Mages of Tintageer had lost much during the war, So it was that when years later unseen forces began to break apart their utopian paradise, they did not have the power to save it. Little did they know that they had brought their own doom upon themselves, from across time and future generations.
A few Eladrin managed to escape the catastrophe by re-opening one of the Elven 'escape portals' back to Toril, and so it was that Eladrin returned to Toril, just as their children two thousand years before them. They forsook the name Eladrin, feeling it was a reminder of what they once had, and called themselves by new names taken from their own offspring. They considered themselves Elves now, whilst in Exile from Faerie, and went by the names of the three great tribes that came to the world - Sun, Moon, and Star (the Star Elves had arrived from another portion of Faerie seperately, and wound up using a different portal to come to Toril).
Some Eladrin that had not wish to perish or flee instead choose to serve Titania and her court, but over the course of untold millenia, there are but few of these original, powerful Eladrin left, and some have come to serve other powers in the outer planes.
@Miscelleny - I only changed one thing from my original - I had the Fey take a HUGE portion of their homeland out of Toril to create Faerie, because they needed a connection to 'the land' to survive. I've changed it a bit so their dependence is on magic now, because I liked your take n them.)
Very nicely done, and thank you.
Dude can you imagine what Evermeet and Evereska are going to be like vis-a-vis the Feywild? I get this feeling that (for me at least) the super-myserious and inscrutable nature of elves will return to those places.
That and I'm totally thinking about the Elf Prince from Hellboy 2. That dude was awesome. A perfect mix of elven arrogance, martial ability and a desire to see the resurgence of his race. I'm pretty much going to steal that guy and his mannerisms for my own FR game.
I love it when good stories, campaign setting elements and good movies and campaign setting elements all come come together to bring the Realms alive in my imagination.
Suhhhhwwwheeeettttah!
Now that's an interesting idea! Those would make it fit better with the overall themes of adventures. If paladins were "Exalted" instead of LG, they wouldn't have to follow every law (esp. when those laws clash with "good"). And "Vile" or some other descriptor could be used for worshippers of truly evil deities - and you wouldn't have to worry about why and how all these CE worshippers "get along" in order to further the causes of their deity (or the "lawfulness" of an evil mage, given than discipline and order are essential for the study of magic, or organizing minions wo they're not all just flat-out murderously crazy).
-That's more or less what I was thinking. If it's going to be a bell curve (like I see it), might as well make both starting points and ending points extremes.
...stuff...[/sblock]
-The idea that the Fey, as in not the Creator Race called 'Fey', but the entire 'branch' of creatures, originated in Realmspace is something I don't think can be possible. Remember, we know from canon that Realmspace is a backwater, nowhere, nothing-going-on Crystal Sphere. While this certainly isn't the case anymore, with the Spellplague changing the nature of the planes everywhere, the Crystal Sphere wouldn't have gotten this..."reputation" to begin with if some many important to the multiverse things (like the 'birth' of the Fey) happened there.
-And, of course, I'll have to register my disgust with the existence of that Creator Race to begin with.
-Shakespeare is public domain, if I recall correctly. But, the reason I think was because they wanted to separate it from more established viewpoints on the subject matter.
That would be my opinion as well.
Now that's an interesting idea! Those would make it fit better with the overall themes of adventures. If paladins were "Exalted" instead of LG, they wouldn't have to follow every law (esp. when those laws clash with "good").
Not to get too far off-topic, but I would say that LG characters (including paladins) do not have to follow a law if it clashes with "good".
Personally, I don't think I would have minded if the alignment system got ditched all together--if you want to play a good person, you just play them that way, they don't need a label for it. That's just me though.
-While this certainly isn't the case anymore, with the Spellplague changing the nature of the planes everywhere, the Crystal Sphere wouldn't have gotten this..."reputation" to begin with if some many important to the multiverse things (like the 'birth' of the Fey) happened there.
Exactly!
They've changed the importance of the Realms in the greater scheme of things now.
I had always thought that Toril was the 'First' prime world - the one the gods experimented with the various races, before sending them off to their own worlds - thats why FR has so many different inttelligent species. Those are just all the 'leftovers' from earlier times. Its also why FR has more portals then anyplace in the multiverse, other then (perhaps) Sigil.
Toril was the cosmic 'weigh station' at one point, but then the 'grand experiment' was ended, a lot of those portals deactivated, and Abeir-Toril wound up 'Forgotten' by the rest of the Cosmos. So you see, it makes perfect sense that the importance of Toril was forgotten about, because that was the intention of the gods (and Ao, who was probably a Primordial left behind to gaurd against people tampering with GOD's lab).
Toril could very well be the 'Cosmic Keystone' to the whole friggin' Universe!
That would be my opinion as well.
-Well, the only opinions that matter have spoken...
Personally, I don't think I would have minded if the alignment system got ditched all together--if you want to play a good person, you just play them that way, they don't need a label for it. That's just me though.
-Eh...One of the things I like least about Star Wars is that there isn't an alignment system. Not that there needs to be, as you said, but it just feels like something is missing on the character sheet.
They've changed the importance of the Realms in the greater scheme of things now.
-Yes, yes they have.
Exactly!
They've changed the importance of the Realms in the greater scheme of things now.
I had always thought that Toril was the 'First' prime world - the one the gods experimented with the various races, before sending them off to their own worlds - thats why FR has so many different inttelligent species. Those are just all the 'leftovers' from earlier times. Its also why FR has more portals then anyplace in the multiverse, other then then (perhaps) Sigil.
Toril was the cosmic 'weigh station' at one point, but then the 'grand experiment' was ended, a lot of those portals deactivated, and Abeir-Toril wound up 'Forgotten' by the rest of the Cosmos. So you see, it makes perfect sense that the impotance of Toril was forgotten about, because that was the intention of the gods (and Ao, who was probably a Primordial left behind to gaurd against people tampering with GOD's lab).
Toril could very well be the 'Cosmic Keystone' to the whole friggin' Universe!
I've thought about that too, but Toril's actual age is actually quite young compared to world like Eberron, whose history literally spans back hundreds of thousands of years.
And isn't Toril littered with portals because it is the universal dump for all things forgotten?
Everything that gets lost winds up there. :D
Eberron is older on paper - but no-one knows how far back Toril's history really goes. There is evidence of human empires pre-dating when humans first evolved from living in caves, and there is now lore about a group of races that lived BEFORE the Creator races.
Tell 'em, LK.
For all we know, the history in the FRCG might only start the moment that Abeir split from Toril, and millions of years of previous history is now 'forgotten'... which is the name of the game, literally. ;)
So, you're saying that Toril is really the Island of Lost Toys?
Everything that gets lost winds up there. :D
Eberron is older on paper - but no-one knows how far back Toril's history really goes. There is evidence of human empires pre-dating when humans first evolved from living in caves, and there is now lore about a group of races that lived BEFORE the Creator races.
Tell 'em, LK.
For all we know, the history in the FRCG might only start the moment that Abeir split from Toril, and millions of years of previous history is now 'forgotten'... which is the name of the game, literally. ;)
Yeah, it could just all be Eternal Reoccurance of course. But I'm not gonna argue. I like the idea of Toril being an origin world as well.
So, you're saying that Toril is really the Island of Lost Toys?
These days with 4E, Faerun is more like the Land of the Lost. ;)
...and there is now lore about a group of races that lived BEFORE the Creator races.
Tell 'em, LK.
-With. Contemporaries.
These days with 4E, Faerun is more like the Land of the Lost. ;)
Speaking of retro shows, I think Thundarr the Barbarian is on tonight at 1 (Eastern US time) on Boomerang.
Speaking of retro shows, I think Thundarr the Barbarian is on tonight at 1 (Eastern US time) on Boomerang.
-Yes, yes it is.
Yup - Intelligent Choclate Puddings and ... Tapioca!!!
-And other varieties of slimes, oozes, and all of those good things.
Yup - Intelligent Choclate Puddings and ... Tapioca!!!
What do the kids like these days? Pudding, pokemon and rap, that's what! :P ;) :D
that's just barmy talk
bar that silly clueless
Toril cosmic keystone of the universe
that's just barmy talk
bar that silly clueless
-Agreed.
Personally I would apply this same principle to the development of Crystal Sphere worlds. Similar worlds have similar developments at certain points. The Fey naturally become a part of each world, wether through migration, evolution, transmogrification or spontaneous existence. With this, the Fey creator race (still unnamed and lacking a description of form AFAIK) was merely the native race to Toril that other Fey were created by/descended from/led there by. The LeShay are hinted at in LEoF as an influence on one of the ancient Human Empires. I forget which one. With a different origin, the Fey creator race could have become them and still "rule" Faerie.
MT, that is just beautiful what you developed there.
The term eludes me, but there is a theory that invention and discovery tends to reach a certain inevitability and a single invention or discovery will be found among multiple people within a relatively short time period. The same process is echoed as cultures that develop similarly but separately at different times will come across the same discoveries at roughly the same point in development.
-Parallel X Devlopment (X denotes sociological, cultural, architectural, etc...).
So Parallel Race Development.
An interesting note on FR is that by and large the smaller somewhat humanoid shaped races quickly rise to power and prominence in the span of a few millenia. They set the bar for achievement and magical might, creating an expanding variety of sentient life. Then they are replaced by more primordial larger creatures that in other worlds tend to come first, such as Dragons and Giants.
One thing I have wondered is if the Batrachi might be responsible for the Oozes and Slimes. An evolution into amorphous some what invulnerable forms. This would place Ghuanadaur into one of the earliest elements of FR history without making it that the Oozes and Slimes were yet another thing that came before. The batrachi are primarily associated with amphibious and piscine races, but shapeshifters are another link. The amorphous intelligences could be another minor addition. The Batrachi empires in general fell before Ghuanadaur supposedly struck his followers mad, yet the last remaining bits could have been an under empire that he dominated.
An interesting note on FR is that by and large the smaller somewhat humanoid shaped races quickly rise to power and prominence in the span of a few millenia. They set the bar for achievement and magical might, creating an expanding variety of sentient life. Then they are replaced by more primordial larger creatures that in other worlds tend to come first, such as Dragons and Giants.
-Not particularly. While we don't know what the Fey, Batrachi, or Aeraee looked like, Dragons (and Dragonkin)and Giants (and Giantkin), both of which existed during such times, held just as much power and dominance as their Creator Race contemporaries.
One thing I have wondered is if the Batrachi might be responsible for the Oozes and Slimes. An evolution into amorphous some what invulnerable forms.
-If I am not mistaken- and I don't believe I am- a select group of Batrachi that traveled to Limbo evolved into the Slaadi.
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-If I am not mistaken- and I don't believe I am- a select group of Batrachi that traveled to Limbo evolved into the Slaadi.
Actually I think you are. In AGHoTR, there was one article at the very beginning showing the thoughts of a Baritachi Lord stating that his people weren't Slaad but were superior to them. I think the theory behind it was that the Baritachi Lords invaded Limbo/Supreme Throne and became essentially lords over the Slaad. It also hints that Bazim-Gorag was once a Baritachi as well.
Before this, I thought the same as well.
Actually I think you are. In AGHoTR, there was one article at the very beginning showing the thoughts of a Baritachi Lord stating that his people weren't Slaad but were superior to them. I think the theory behind it was that the Baritachi Lords invaded Limbo/Supreme Throne and became essentially lords over the Slaad. It also hints that Bazim-Gorag was once a Baritachi as well.
-Close. The speaker does mention, however, of how the Batrachi left for Limbo, and how they were transformed, though denies that he and his people became Slaadi. Instead, he says that he is a Batrachi Lord.
-I guess the "proto-history" speculation, when it was all up in the air, before the publishing of AGHotR was that the Batrachi became the Slaadi.
Anyhow, there are several races that are/were as powerful as the Creator races (including the Elves at one point), but the Five Creator Races are thus called because they fit TWO criteria - they were NATIVE to Toril (meaning that Fey must be, which I don't exactly like, but it's canon), and they created a substantial number of 'lesser races' that were their 'inheritors' (such as the Yuan-Ti of the Sarrukh).
Humans are lumped in there, even though they came so much later, because Human Magi have created dozens - if not hundreds - of other races (like Owlbears and Peryton).
Believe me you, I had another - and much better (if I do say so myself) - primordial set of creation myths surrounding the Fey, but that was torpedoed when some horse's butt decided they were native to Toril!
The one caveat I make is that they came first - but they were often called the 'hidden People' by the other creator races, who didn't even realize the fey existed until their own magical prowess attained a level wherein they were able to see past the Fey's nature ability of Glamours (illusions).
I assume the Fey were already around at least 5000 years before the others, and perhaps even more like 15,000! I also Assume the last of the Fey (the ones that were unwilling to take other forms to survive) left Toril around -16,000 DR, siting the forced Dwarven migration from the Yehimals as the SAME incident that Drove the Fey from Toril (the incident of the Black Diamond), which I also use as time frame for when the Maraloi (an off-shoot of the Fey in the east) Empire began to 'wane', and eventually disappear as well.
-Close. The speaker does mention, however, of how the Batrachi left for Limbo, and how they were transformed, though denies that he and his people became Slaadi. Instead, he says that he is a Batrachi Lord.
-I guess the "proto-history" speculation, when it was all up in the air, before the publishing of AGHotR was that the Batrachi became the Slaadi.
Yep, that's what I said. That the Baritachi mages that traveled to Limbo formed a sort of upper class above the run-of-the-mill slaadi. So Ssendamn, Ygorl, Chourst, Bazim-Gorag, and all the others were originally Baritachi and came from a whole different stock than the rest of the Slaadi.
I still need to pick up the GHotR but according to SK the Creator Race era of domination was primarily from -35,000 to -30,000 and the rise of the Dragon domination began at -30,000 and was partly responsible for the end of the Aearee Empires and the Faerie Empire giving up what little holdings they bothered with on Toril. Myths link the rise of true Dragons to the ancient meteor fall event called the Tearfall, which in some myths were Dragon eggs and others claim were responsible for a climate shift that let proto-draconic lizards evolve and devastated the Sarrukh. At the very least, the Sarrukh history section has no mention of climate change happening nor affecting them. Does GHotR give an approximation of what millenia the Tearfall happens in? It has also been a while since I read the Aearee article at Candlekeep, so that material is very fuzzy in memory right now.
The Tearfall flat out destroyed the Batrachi Empires and freed the Aearee. It also blanketed the world in darkness for a period and changed the climate. The Sarrukh had already fallen by this time and were in retreat so were unaffected. The Yuan-Ti successor empire of Mhairshaulk was in the Chultan area and largely unaffected. Hence creatures such as dinosaurs are still common in these areas. This also puts the Tearfall around -31,000.
A new breed of lizards hatched in the aftermath of the Tearfall. The Aearee went about survival and then empire building and ignored these dragons for the next thousand years. Eventually corruption and attempted conquest greatly weakened the various Aearee empires. They were a diverse people and diverged even more greatly after this. After this the Dragons now powerful with age struck with opportunity, shattering the remains of the empires and establishing their dominance.
Now the part that brings this back on topic. The fey manage to play an important role thoughout much of this. Uldra oppose the Aearee attempts at warming the northern lands again. Various fey factions join in on both sides. During nearly all conflicts the Aearee find themselves in, the sprite kingdoms and sometimes other flying fey are allies. This is especially true during battles against the dragons as both are threatened. As I understand it, the green elves are tricked into taking portals from Faerie to Toril by the Fey in their fight against the Dragons. This happens around -27,000 and three thousand years after the Aearee had fallen. This leaves a solid three thousand year period of Fey-Dragon aggression.
So my thoughts lead me to some possibilities. I believe the Fey creator race is natural to Toril but not responsible for the creation of other Fey races, merely their presence. They would likely be located in the north and the east. Very much into the lands of Kara-Tur. Rather than conquering the lands of others they forged new lands by connecting portions of the Feywild/Faerie directly to Toril. The fey native to the Feywild are able to do similar connections but the Fcr are the only natural inhabitants of Toril that mastered this ability. This allowed their lands to remain connected but largely isolated from the Empires of others. The fey races of the Feywild were treated as servants, but in a round about way. The Fey creator race would trick or incite their otherwordly kin into action, flooding into Toril and forming "tributary" states. So the Feywild was always there but the Fcr just brought it closer for a time. Eventually Toril became a waste of resources compared to the gains it offered because of the Dragon dominions. Slowly the Fcr loose their Feywild kingdoms from Toril into a less easily accessible arrangement. Connections continue to exist, and the Spirit World of Kara-Tur remains the widest spread network of connections. The Lung dragons were more passive and less inclined to direct conquering of lands. Elvish magic affecting the Feywild forward and backwards in time also helps sever connections. Restrictions upon the Weave also shores up the barrier between worlds to prevent certain disasters. During the Spellplague, the nature of interaction changes. The barrier weakens and the Feywild spills back into Toril so that all the world has as much Feywild influence as Kara-Tur had retained. The Fcr still hold sway but realize their traditional foes tend to be solitary and few true empires of great might stand firm. The Fcr spread their influence yet again as they always have. Not with direct control or displayed might, yet with subtlety and intrigue creeping through the world.
This leaves the Feywild as always there, always close. Just during some periods there are less direct connections than during other times.
Read the name under 'Special Thanks'.
Now note the name on the CK article.
All of the stuff about the creator races was taken from those CK Compendium articles, making them canoner then canon. ;)
Note: The Batrachi were in Vol. III
I still need to pick up the GHotR...
Give me a little bit, I'll get right on that. ;)
Ok good on the Batrachi article. I'll need to go through that one after work then. The Aearee article gave me a little tidbit that added to my thoughts on the Oozes and Slimes, and I'll see if the Batrachi article adds anything more as well.
Anyhow, there are several races that are/were as powerful as the Creator races (including the Elves at one point), but the Five Creator Races are thus called because they fit TWO criteria - they were NATIVE to Toril (meaning that Fey must be, which I don't exactly like, but it's canon), and they created a substantial number of 'lesser races' that were their 'inheritors' (such as the Yuan-Ti of the Sarrukh).
Humans are lumped in there, even though they came so much later, because Human Magi have created dozens - if not hundreds - of other races (like Owlbears and Peryton).
Believe me you, I had another - and much better (if I do say so myself) - primordial set of creation myths surrounding the Fey, but that was torpedoed when some horse's butt decided they were native to Toril!
-Here's the mistake I see your making, which is what I think is coloring your misperception: Fey, not THE Fey. Small, slight difference, but it makes all the difference.
It may not be obvious but the speaker was intended to be Bazim-Gorag himself (whose illustration was shunted off to page 43 for reasons unknown).
Actually I think you are. In AGHoTR, there was one article at the very beginning showing the thoughts of a Baritachi Lord stating that his people weren't Slaad but were superior to them. I think the theory behind it was that the Baritachi Lords invaded Limbo/Supreme Throne and became essentially lords over the Slaad. It also hints that Bazim-Gorag was once a Baritachi as well.
It may not be obvious but the speaker was intended to be Bazim-Gorag himself (whose illustration was shunted off to page 43 for reasons unknown).
-How does that work out with the quote captured from a mind read of a thrall that was later subsumed into the Elder Brain of Oryndoll?
However, I think that calling the Slaad 'creations' of the Batrahi is left up to the individual DM. They could be manufactured (from their own genetic material?), or they could have been some 'simple' reptilian race already living in Limbo that the Batrachi gave a little 'evolutionary boost' to (the way the Summoner did).
Or they could just be the children of the Batrachi, inheritantly changed by the nature of the plane on which they were born (much as I have postulated the Elves diverged from the Fey).
I doubt we will get anything concrete, and in a way I prefer it that - its left up to us how we want to imagine it 'going down' in our own version of FR.
Batrachi quickly adapt to their environment, by massively transforming, in Limbo would happen to them even faster in addition to slaadi putting eggs in people
other than ''frog-forms'' there are millions of other slaadi forms
as for ''the incident of the Black Diamond'', in my version it happened in previous universe, from which are le shay. Ladinion's ''skeleton'' or The Great Tree was incorporated into the new universe. In a way it's is like the Deep Ethereal, there fey shaped and played new demiplanes. Those fey spirits who took interest in undeveloped material planes assumed a more corporeal form. Later they god bored with it as the Prime developed and retreated.
The Black Diamond was maybe a prototype version of the Heart of Darkness, maybe it created night hags from the corrupted fey
other than ''frog-forms'' there are millions of other slaadi forms
-There are officially what? Red, Blue, Green, Death, Mud...? And, on top of that, the infinite variation within each different form.
Now, since that early time, the Fey have spread all over the Feywild (hence the new name - Fey's gone wild ;) ), and have taken on numerous shapes, and have spread out into other worlds. The Realm of Faerie - their origianl 'nation' within the Feywild is still central to their culture, and that is where their children, the Elves, derive from.
The original Feywild was called something else... perhaps the Ethereal (the idea of the near and far Ethereal works well) on some worlds, maybe the 'Spirit World' by Oriental Cultures, or even the 'Dream Time' by aboriginies, but whatever it is/was called, it has always existed, but the Fey living there for 20,000 years have lent their name to the place now.
Its just a name, and names vary depending on where you hail from, and considering the Feywild mirrors whatever part of the Prime Material it is nearest to, its easy to see how so many different races in so many different spheres used to assume it was all different places. Add in that the plane is also mutable (the landscape changes), and you can see how the same person could have travelled there 10 times, and thought they were some place different each time.
Also, I assume the Feywild, just like the Shadowfel (former Plane of Shadows) touches upon all worlds, but folks (usually) only see that portion closest to their own. Very few non-Fey travel into the 'Deep' Feywild. Thats also why a locale like the Keep on the Shadowfel can be accessed by heroes on different worlds.
-Or, like I said, it's simply a new name in D&D, that isn't even necessarily used in Realmspace, like so many other things. Why does everyone have to make it more complicated than it actually is?
Because some of us think 'outside the Realms'. :P
When I need to shoe-horn new lore in, I have to think about how it also effects Greyhawk, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer (:yuck
, and even Eberron and Dragonlance.And every other world/setting in the multiverse.
Thats why a lot of time's I fall back on Marvel's Cosmology - it really works well for the 'big picture'. ;)
Because some of us think 'outside the Realms'. :P
When I need to shoe-horn new lore in, I have to think about how it also effects Greyhawk, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer (yuck), and even Eberron and Dragonlance.
And every other world/setting in the multiverse.
Thats why a lot of time's I fall back on Marvel's Cosmology - it really works well for the 'big picture'. ;)
-And, again, the same thing applies: The name change is taking place in the theoretical meta-D&D context, in the "phantom setting" that the Core Books are set in, that doesn't really exist. So, with that in mind, everyone else's name for the plane remains the same.
Thats what I said earlier, and that agrees with everything you have said.
Creating lore is useless... I'll have to remember that.
Look at it this way - The Feywild was ALWAYS there. Faerie - the part the Fey inhabit/rule - was added later. This could have been by them just moving in and setting up shop, or by them physically moving a piece of their old home into the Feywild (my prreferred explanation - phasing parts of the landscape in and out of Faerie is a great part of Faery folklore).
Now, since that early time, the Fey have spread all over the Feywild (hence the new name - Fey's gone wild ;) ), and have taken on numerous shapes, and have spread out into other worlds. The Realm of Faerie - their origianl 'nation' within the Feywild is still central to their culture, and that is where their children, the Elves, derive from.
The original Feywild was called something else... perhaps the Ethereal (the idea of the near and far Ethereal works well) on some worlds, maybe the 'Spirit World' by Oriental Cultures, or even the 'Dream Time' by aboriginies, but whatever it is/was called, it has always existed, but the Fey living there for 20,000 years have lent their name to the place now.
Its just a name, and names vary depending on where you hail from, and considering the Feywild mirrors whatever part of the Prime Material it is nearest to, its easy to see how so many different races in so many different spheres used to assume it was all different places. Add in that the plane is also mutable (the landscape changes), and you can see how the same person could have travelled there 10 times, and thought they were some place different each time.
Also, I assume the Feywild, just like the Shadowfel (former Plane of Shadows) touches upon all worlds, but folks (usually) only see that portion closest to their own. Very few non-Fey travel into the 'Deep' Feywild. Thats also why a locale like the Keep on the Shadowfel can be accessed by heroes on different worlds.
-Most of it doesn't have a basis anywhere, and is just speculation- which is fine. Taking a deep breath, looking at the situation, and then saying, "Well, it's only in the D&D book is the name changing. In the Forgotten Realms- or whatever other setting- it's always been like this, so..." accomplishes the same exact thing, with less agitation.
Some people don't understand how the 'Fey' race could have come from Toril and moved to the Feywild (and then spread outward from there).
Fact: Fey originated on Toril
Fact: The Feywild is the plane that the Fey come from (now)
I was just trying to explain those two seperate facts in a way people could grasp - the name 'Feywild' didn't come about until after the Fey got there. In fact, all of those 'little people' races (Brownies & Sprites, and all their myriad derivations) were probably there first, and after 20,000 years years of the Fey lending their name to the place, those other races are now pegged with the 'fey' descriptor.
What I am getting at is that names could have changed later - today Amerinds are called 'Indians' by us, and yet that was just a mistake by Columbus.
Lore is as useful as you want it to be, and my 'vision' of how things occurred explains away a couple of anomalies. For instance, time flows differently in Faerie (Feywild), so that means just because the Fey took over that plane 20,000 years ago doesn't mean they couldn't have migrated from there to other planes 50,000 years ago (like GH or DL). The same moment in the timeline in Faerie doesn't neccessarily 'link-up' to the same moments in two other spheres.
Get it?
Edit: I just thought of an even 'neater' explanation - The original creator race was called the Le'Shay, and those are the beings that moved to the Feywild (already thusly named after the 'fey' creatures dwelling there). So, in that version, it was the Le'Shay who underwent the name-change, being named after the plane they have dwelled upon for thousads of years. Thats why the 'fey' descriptor isn't the same as the race 'Fey' - everything that dwells in the Feywild for any length of time gets the 'fey' template added to it!
I think I like that better...
Fact: Fey originated on Toril
Fact: The Feywild is the plane that the Fey come from (now)
-No. As I said earlier, The Fey Creator Race =/= the Fey species. The Fey Creator Race doesn't have a name, as of yet. They simply are a Fey race that independently developed on Abeir-Toril. That they created the entire Fey species is reaching for facts that don't exist.
I think two things with the same name are the same thing, but what do I know.
Look at it this way - The Feywild was ALWAYS there. Faerie - the part the Fey inhabit/rule - was added later. This could have been by them just moving in and setting up shop, or by them physically moving a piece of their old home into the Feywild (my prreferred explanation - phasing parts of the landscape in and out of Faerie is a great part of Faery folklore).
Now, since that early time, the Fey have spread all over the Feywild (hence the new name - Fey's gone wild ;) ), and have taken on numerous shapes, and have spread out into other worlds. The Realm of Faerie - their origianl 'nation' within the Feywild is still central to their culture, and that is where their children, the Elves, derive from.
The original Feywild was called something else... perhaps the Ethereal (the idea of the near and far Ethereal works well) on some worlds, maybe the 'Spirit World' by Oriental Cultures, or even the 'Dream Time' by aboriginies, but whatever it is/was called, it has always existed, but the Fey living there for 20,000 years have lent their name to the place now.
Its just a name, and names vary depending on where you hail from, and considering the Feywild mirrors whatever part of the Prime Material it is nearest to, its easy to see how so many different races in so many different spheres used to assume it was all different places. Add in that the plane is also mutable (the landscape changes), and you can see how the same person could have travelled there 10 times, and thought they were some place different each time.
Also, I assume the Feywild, just like the Shadowfel (former Plane of Shadows) touches upon all worlds, but folks (usually) only see that portion closest to their own. Very few non-Fey travel into the 'Deep' Feywild. Thats also why a locale like the Keep on the Shadowfel can be accessed by heroes on different worlds.
yes, I have something similar
You say the Fey are NOT the Fey... and you claim I am reaching?
I think two things with the same name are the same thing, but what do I know.
-Right. The Fey Creator Race =/= The Fey species.
The Fey Creator Race: A Fey species that developed independently on Abeir-Toril. We know not their name, just like (until recently), the Sarrukh were the reptilian creator race, the Batrachi were the amphibian creator race, and so on.
The Fey Species: Sylvan, otherworldly creatures from the Plane of Faerie.
Seems a bit too literalist an interpretation to me...
-How so? And, which? That the Plane of Faerie is the 'Feywild', and that's that, with a new and shiny name, or that the Fey Creator Race =/= the Fey species genesis point?
I’m reading everyone’s posts and learning more about all things Fey.
:D
Supposedly those Fey Creators were the source of those Fey critters running around, so a strong relationship seems pretty likely.
-Only on Abeir-Toril, not all across the multiverse. The Sarrukh are the Reptilian Creator Race, but, say, Saurials, we know (I believe) are not actually related to them. Just because they are an ancestor doesn't mean that all lines trace back to them.
Fairly good bet that a weapon designed to work against Fey wouldn't make much differentiation between the two, so I can't really see why the rest of us should.
-No, it wouldn't. But, the same can be said of chemical weapons that don't differentiate between Zoroastrianists and Shintos, even though the two different religious groups developed seperatley from each other. Or, Romanians and Aztecs, whose cultures, again, developed seperatley from each other.
As to the comparison between a Feybane weapon and chemical weapons... you're just plain reaching there. Chemical weapons don't descriminate against anything in their area of effect... everyone is equally screwed by it, barring MOPP suits.
Bane weapons... well, a wee-tiny-itty-bitty bit of a difference on that point, no? Sure, they'll affect most stuff, but their far more effective against certain types of things, and as I said, I doubt they'd see much difference between Fey Creators and 'standard' Fey. :P
But, Abeir-Toril is the issue at hand, so what happened across the rest of the multiverse is immaterial to the Realms. :P
-Then why are you agreeing with the above? There's all kinds of wacky ideas being thrown around that have to do with the multiverse. My saying that the "Feywild" is just the new D&D term for the Plane of Faerie, and nothing is actually changing involves only Abeir-Toril.
As to the comparison between a Feybane weapon and chemical weapons... you're just plain reaching there.
-Sure, but I don't understand the entire point of bringing it up to begin with. A Fey is a Fey, yes, just like a Human is a Human. A Human race of a specific origin still has a different origin from another Human race with a different origin.
Totally misunderstood what Markus was saying there... which put a weird spin on what you were saying. Been having a bad time with that the last few days, been a bit worried about my wife though, she's pretty sick (ER and all), so I'm not thinking as clearly as I should be perhaps.
Personally, I prefer the fae stuff from White Wolf's old World of Darkness myself, and so tend to use that in my Realms over anything else.
Totally misunderstood what Markus was saying there... which put a weird spin on what you were saying. Been having a bad time with that the last few days, been a bit worried about my wife though, she's pretty sick (ER and all), so I'm not thinking as clearly as I should be perhaps.
-Not cool. Hope she gets better.
And if not, well, I'll be too dead to care. :D
Personally, I prefer the fae stuff from White Wolf's old World of Darkness myself, and so tend to use that in my Realms over anything else.
-Supposedly, the 3rd part book Faerie was really good. A lot of designers recommended it.