So, you want to gut a long-standing and much-loved campaign setting?
Good. Let's review what this process actually entails, starting with a simple definition and moving on to the harder stuff later.
Gut is used here as a transitive verb, referring to the act of removing or destroying the most important parts of an object or being. Ironically, this word seems to imply the removal of the vital organs which the word "guts" normally refers to. So, you can repair a man's gut, or you can gut a man. The first action heals him, the second will probably kill him.
In the case of gutting a campaign setting, the procedure is usually undertaken for two reasons:
1. The campaign setting has been damaged in some way which makes it "unusable" or extremely "unplayable". This is of course a values judgement and may only be the "spin" required as a company transitions from one rule-set to another. This problem is most often seen in campaign settings with heavy-handed (and "required") canon from many novels, and accounts for many of the campaign settings that died when various companies upgraded their rule books. In order to make an old campaign setting viable with a new rule-set, the setting must be gutted to remove (theoretically) incompatible NPCs, nations, or "old unwritten rules" that no longer have meaning under the new rule-set. Sometimes, when too many revisions add up in a short period of time, the changes can collapse under their own contradictions and "retcons".
2. The campaign setting has been somehow damaged in an area not normally seen by most players and DMs, perhaps with one novel that strayed dramatically from canon or continuity. This doesn't happen too often, and the gutting process is usually quite swift, as only a small portion of the setting must be removed or revised.
This guide will mainly cover the first reason to gut a campaign setting, but can be applied to smaller jobs.
What You Need:
1. Three lined legal pads.
2. Pens and pencils.
3. Computer with word processor, empty recycle bin.
4. A good "world-shattering event" or WSE (doesn’t have to be believable).
5. Several plot devices consistent with the WSE above.
6. Willingness to kill off NPCs, gods, kingdoms.
7. A thick skin (to absorb negative reaction from prior fans).
8. Snack foods.
Preparations
This is long, tiring work. From my experience, it takes a team of editors and designers several weeks to gut a 20-year-old campaign world. Depending on the world construction, and extent of WSE and previous retconning damage, it might take up to three days to gut even a small home-brew campaign setting.
As with most long demanding tasks, the work goes easiest if each team member concentrates on a specific area and specific tasks. I recommend working with between one and three editors/designers for each "area" within the campaign (e.g. each kingdom, or realm), with two editors or interns saved for doing miscellaneous cleanup like removing obvious inconsistencies, pulling out incompatible NPCs, and removing empty pizza boxes and Chinese food containers.
Before you do any work, make sure that the campaign setting is completely free of pesky deities and NPCs (unless they sell extremely well; see sacred cows). Then, open all the chat rooms you can find and let people know that the setting they love is "extremely damaged" and/or "not actually fun" regardless of history or prior sales. Next, choose a large central continent or world-realm as your "base". This area will remain relatively untouched by the changes you’ll make, and is a good place to keep old NPCs and items that will miss the proverbial "axe" or slash of the pen (haha!). Technically, you can't destroy everything and still keep the semblance of the setting. You need the name recognition of the brand identity in order to pull in initial sales, regardless of the closeness of your product to the original. Finally, make sure you have a defragmented hard drive and a clear recycle bin on your computer for dumping concepts, nations and areas that are to be trashed. One of those big duo-core computers with MS Word works great.
Hitting Things With Heavy-Handed Plot Devices
This is the fun part. Walk into a realm, waving a red pen over it. Choose a long-standing world or plot element. Give that element a few line-strikes with your red pen. Does the plot element feel "solid", or hollow? If your line-strike gives a satisfying feeling of power and control, or if you're compelled to laugh and lightning flashes while you wave your red pen over it, the plot element has been reinforced with years of tradition and time-honored use by players and DMs. These particular plot elements take a good deal of stamina to break through, so you'll need to break out a heavy-handed plot device. If your line-strike returns a more "eh" feeling, or it feels like you're getting rid of something that never actually fit, you've gotten lucky and the plot element is something people rarely used and will never miss. If you want to impress your fellow editors and designers, simply take the whole paragraph or page into your right hand and crumple the page into a ball. Then, aim for the nearest wastebasket and do a Michael Jordan "toss". Otherwise, just use the "delete" key on your word processor.
Make your way around the Realm, removing every bit of exposition and history that you dislike. If you're using a heavy handed plot device and tend to work from yellow legal pads, this may take you a while. If you're using a word-processor with a delete key, it probably won't take longer than half an hour.
Now, find the "fluff" (thoughts and ideas not dependent on rule systems) usually kept in novels and older sourcebooks. These bits of roleplaying "fluff" are usually harmless but can be filled with old ideas that may not fit in well with your new rules system, and must be retconned away or simply ignored. Take a small plot device or appropriate element of your WSE, wedge between the "fluff" and the ruleset, and separate the two. Make sure you also consider removal of all "fluff" that’s made its way only onto online sources but still considered "official" in the previous version of the setting. After removing all the offensive "fluff," remember to knock away any remaining pesky deities or NPCs which are still incompatible.
If you've been removing soda cans, changing coffee filters, and excess paper as you work, you're probably almost completely done with this realm.
Next step: introduce all of your new campaign elements. Don't forget to import a few ideas that are currently the "rage" in MMO games, and don't shy away too quickly from random but "cool" things in popular movies. Remember: "cool" kids like what is popular, and their parents supply them a good deal of spending money. Finally, be sure to advance the timeline of your campaign setting; one or two hundred years is usually sufficient. This will allow for players and DMs to feel like the setting has "matured" or "settled down" following your massive WSEs, even though it really hasn't. Also, it theoretically allows for the death-by-old-age of any remaining pesky NPCs that your editing team may have forgotten to kill off prior to the WSE.
Congratulations! You have finished gutting one realm of your campaign setting! If you're lucky, three to four other realms have been gutted by your editing team while you've worked on your assignment. Continue what you've been doing, and you should have the campaign setting completely gutted in time for the release of your new rules system.
/crit by wall of text, take 1,000 damage and roll a fort save DC 50.
Also - make things float. Kids like when things float... like balloons....
____________________________________________________________________________
So, I guess you guys were unimpressed with them turning a nation of peaceful, scholarly mages into mercenaries? :D
Very nice indeed Daenaan.
Don't forget to add-in that the 'wrecking crew' should NOT communicate at all with each other during this process. Releasing disparate information keeps the customers guessing and off-balance.
-Hmm, this is a very important aspect.
-Hmm, this is a very important aspect.
-Yes the right hand MUST never know what the left hand is doing.:P
-Or... just unleash the "Spellplague"
-Very good.
18D;)
How on earth did you get hold of the FR design team's instruction manual?
Sure, there's a few things I don't like about the new setting, but there are a bunch of things that I actually do. I think it's time to start making lemonade from the lemons, and get used to the Brave New World.
I mean, OP, you just spent how many minutes writing sour innuendo that has zero chance of doing, well, anything that you might want it to?
I don't know. I just feel like the lone point of enthusiasm in a board filled with pessimism.
You know when people complained about this and that regarding the Realms? And they did change the setting to accommodate them in 4E. Yeah. It actually works like that.
Heh, I'm glad everyone's liked it. I thought for sure WotC would delete it
-You didn't violate the Code of Conduct. Thus, there is no reason WotC should delete this. Doing so would be a breach of the "contract" signed between you and them when you registered.
I mean, OP, you just spent how many minutes writing sour innuendo that has zero chance of doing, well, anything that you might want it to?
I don't know. I just feel like the lone point of enthusiasm in a board filled with pessimism.
-What an oxymoron...
-What an oxymoron...
To what exactly, sir, are you referring?
To what exactly, sir, are you referring?
-Talking about being the lone voice of "positivity", and writing a thread filled with such "negativity".
...I mean, OP, you just spent how many minutes writing sour innuendo that has zero chance of doing, well, anything that you might want it to?
Maybe 15 minutes, and it mostly wrote itself. It wasn't crafted with the intent of finally getting those mean ol' designers to see their mistakes and change something that's already been printed; it was intended as a satirical piece to give myself a little chuckle... and maybe bring a smile or wink to a few people who feel the same as I do. I know that I had fun making it, and maybe some people here will enjoy it too. Sometimes, satire helps a sad situation feel a little lighter.
-You didn't violate the Code of Conduct. Thus, there is no reason WotC should delete this. Doing so would be a breach of the "contract" signed between you and them when you registered.
Heh, cool... it felt so naughty!
Heh, cool... it felt so naughty!
-Be careful. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
-Of course, that's if you ascribe to the 'Light Side"/"Dark Side" way of looking at things. For others, like myself, there is only the Unifying Force...
-Be careful. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
-Of course, that's if you ascribe to the 'Light Side"/"Dark Side" way of looking at things. For others, like myself, there is only the Unifying Force...
Oh heck... I've been on the "dark path" for nearly a decade. The benefits were too good, and when they said I could gut Jedi -just- for their faux European haircuts, it was pretty much a done deal. :evillaugh
-Talking about being the lone voice of "positivity", and writing a thread filled with such "negativity".
I'm usually content to just sit and lurk, but it escapes me why so many, many pages are dedicated to Litanies of Hate regarding the setting changes. I would think it more time-efficient, and more mentally salubrious, to go somewhere else if the setting no longer appeals. While I realize this would probably empty the board of the grognards :D I doubt I would have to wait long before people who buy the new edition and like it show up.
You know, just to offer an actual salient point, one thing I haven't noticed anybody saying is exactly WHY the setting changes don't appeal to them. While people here say over and over that they don't care for the changes, they don't explain themselves. Oh yes, I've heard buzzwords like: lack of consistency, not Realmsy enough, What Would Ed Greenwood Do...But overall, it rather smells that any change to the setting whatsoever is unwelcome to this fan-demographic, regardless of what it is, no matter how minor. Somebody could say that Red Wizards have started growing their hair out and suddenly the pitchforks would come out and somebody would egg Rich Baker's house.
So, to summarize: I like Aboleths.
...why so many, many pages are dedicated to Litanies of Hate regarding the setting changes. I would think it more time-efficient, and more mentally salubrious, to go somewhere else if the setting no longer appeals. While I realize this would probably empty the board of the grognards :D I doubt I would have to wait long before people who buy the new edition and like it show up. (...)
Oh my gosh! Was my little wall of text just compared to a Litany of Hate? WOW!
That's like... the web version of a Peabody!
...or something!
No, actually, I enjoy all these gentlemens' work.
Oh heck... I've been on the "dark path" for nearly a decade.
-Are your eyes all yellow and jaundiced?
Oh, so terribly sorry.
-There you go again.
You know, just to offer an actual salient point, one thing I haven't noticed anybody saying is exactly WHY the setting changes don't appeal to them.
-This has been going on since Chris Sims released "The Ten Points" back in September or October. You don't seem to be looking hard enough.
So, to summarize: I like Aboleths.
-As do I.
-Are your eyes all yellow and jaundiced?
Yes, but graduate school did that. ;)
--This has been going on since Chris Sims released "The Ten Points" back in September or October. You don't seem to be looking hard enough.
Wait a minute, now. You can't just reference some vast weight of complaint and tell me that I'm ill-informed because there's history. I disagree with that insinuation, because I've been reading at least that long myself. That's the heart of my point: there's a huge weight of complaint- nobody's arguing that- but no concrete, reasoned measure as to why changes shouldn't occur! It just stinks of intransigence in the purest form.
I dub it: "Don't touch MY Realms-itis."
For instance, a lot of people don't want the Far Realms in their Forgotten Realms. Why? "It's not Realmsy." Or why not kill off Mystra? "It's not the Forgotten Realms without Mystra! I mean, there's ALWAYS been Mystra." It's just another way of saying, "It's different and different is always BAD."
I don't see how the 4E Realms is going to be any less the Realms. It's just going to be different, like it was between 1E and 2E, and 2E and 3E. So it's all the same to me.
At least we can agree that we like Aboleths.
Yes, but graduate school did that. ;)
-I see. Did the Dark Path make it any worse? Better, perhaps?
I disagree with that insinuation, because I've been reading at least that long myself.
-Either you haven't been around as long as you claim, or you aren't looking in the "right" places, then. Have you even once read any of the 30-something+ pages of the "They have killed the Forgotten Realms" thread? Or it's sister, "They have saved the Forgotten Realms" thread? Or the rebuttals to the "Sims Manifesto"?
Another one who doesn't know phat about what moves us to complain about $ed FR
-Huh? Translate that into actual English this time, 'cause even I didn't get that one. ;)
-Huh? Translate that into actual English this time, 'cause even I didn't get that one. ;)
Wow, I found a type of coded english that LK can't understand :P
What I meant was that: Another poster who comes to voice his oppinion without having all the relevant data to form an informed opinion.
What I meant was that: Another poster who comes to voice his oppinion without having all the relevant data to form an informed opinion.
-Oh. He/she seems informed. Just not informed on this particular tangent. Majority of what he said has truth to it. Most of the people who express their dislike for the 4e changes are like GEV, who randomly and incessantly write "DIE 4e DIE", and other assorted nuggets of wisdom. That said, however, the points of contention are all rather well defined, as are their counter-points, and those counter-points' counters.
As to being afraid of Change... could be. Though for the record, I like Mystra, I like a plethora of deities in different pantheons, I can't stand Aboleth (or most others of their Aberrant ilk), I don't even vaguely like Lovecraftian themes, and I liked the Triad. Why? Because I did, and do... I don't need more justification than that for disliking the changes. Nothing I've read of them are anything I'd even remotely consider doing in my own campaign, and its such a large scale shift away from what has come before it that its value for picking ideas off of seem minimal. It seems to be introducing concepts and ideas that have little to no value to me, so why would I be even remotely happy to see those ideas injected into the default setting? Its not a question of them not being Realmsy enough, or even inconsistent with the Realms... its WotC IP, they can do what they want to it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, much less buy it. What I like is the old Realms, and it is interest in that which keeps me here. Come 4e, that might not be the case, but for now... ;)
I don't recall seeing Sims' list myself... though I probably did and dismissed it as irrelevant to myself, and so don't have much to recall in the first place. Anyone recall whereabouts it is so I can take another look at it (presuming I saw it to begin with and just forgot)?
-They were listed in his Developer Journal.
-I misattributed things to Chris Sims, however. It was Chris Perkins, not Chris Sims. 'The Perkins Manifesto'.
Thats the article that made me famous over at Enworld. :D
Of course, I thought Abeir was an alternate timeline back then, but at least I got the part about the two worlds merging correct way back then...
Too bad I was right, eh? ;)
My VERY favorite line in that whole mess -
"However, I believe the Spellplague is a very elegant way to merge the current campaign setting with 4E."
I had to look up 'elegant' - for a second there I thought maybe there was a second definition for that word.
Either that is a weak attempt at stand-up comedy, or they had some really good crack going around Gencon that year.
I don't know. I just feel like the lone point of enthusiasm in a board filled with pessimism.
What a joke! You come here, rarely, just to complain, nothing else.
I hope everyone's hungry, because it's time for a Fish Fry. I'm not good at gutting campaign settings, but I'm really good at gutting fish!
That's the heart of my point: there's a huge weight of complaint- nobody's arguing that- but no concrete, reasoned measure as to why changes shouldn't occur!
If you haven't seen it you haven't been paying attention. Conversely, when I started a thread repeating the various stated reasons for removing Mystra, not one poster found them coherent or compelling arguments. The argument for why these changes should occur can't be made except in the abstract because it depends on market research, numbers, business plans and creative details that no one outside Wizards of the Coast is privy to.
It's plain why people who like the Realms don't like the fact that it won't be published any more, replaced by a new setting that's -- all by its creators' own statements -- different in nature, simplified in detail, with large parts removed or replaced to conform it to factors that have nothing to do with the setting itself. On the other hand, it may be a fine setting in its own right, will suit some people better, will excite others with its newness, and may serve Wizards better as part of its D&D business model.
Rhee, I want my Pink Salmon grilled slowly in hot coals. That way the meat is cooked slowly and the taste is smooth.
Sorry, my dear, but the only fish on the menu today is blobfish--see above.;) It's weird-looking and hard to catch...but it tastes good!
I will grill it for you though, as ordered.
If you can make a good presentation with something that ugly then it's a deal.
Will do, my friend, will do.
I think even the "friendly" blobfish could appreciate that.-I still want a "insert random designer MUST be stopped" T-Shirt, or a "I survived the spellplague and all I got was this cr@ppy shirt" T-Shirt!!!;) Those were the days.
18D:P
As I said, you've nothing of value to say regarding the Realms, you merely schlep over here once in a blue moon to spout off the same old stale complaints about the other posters here (people you don't know from Adam), then you have the jangles to dub yourself "the lone voice of optimism" or some other garbage.
Yes... we have Mula, Rauric, and Miscellany for that. :P
And at least we can respect them for their tenacity when fighting against overwhelming odds. ;)
Just dropping by and 'sniping' isn't appreciated. Stick around and take the heat like those other posters do, and then you'll earn our respect.
And its mostly because of the reasons behind the changes we are upset. That, and the 'false' reasons they gave for them. They said FR was 'broken', which simply wasn't true. People's perception of it was 'broken'. They also said they needed to do this because of the new rules. Equally false - James Wyatt has stated that Eberron will not be changed at all, and they will make the new rules work mechanically with the existing setting. They needed to change the setting to try to bring in 'new blood', and also to give the writers an 'open ticket' to write whatever they wanted, while at the same time ignoring all of FR's wonderful past. Thats the truth of it.
I probably could have lived with ALL of the changes they made, as I'm sure many others could, if they were SPREAD OUT OVER TIME, and presented in a manner more consistent with the setting. I don't know if it was a 'publicity stunt', or just bad PR, but hitting us with this in the way in which they did was just so jarring that we are still shaken up by it.
I didn't want this to turn into another rant, but it makes me friggin' nuts when someone says something stupid like "You all hate change", because that only describes a very small minority of the nay-sayers. Bad writing is at the very heart of the problem, and there's just no nice way to put it.
If that's the conclusion you're going to draw, it's obvious to any intelligent person that it'd be a waste of time to explain anything to you.
As I said, you've nothing of value to say regarding the Realms, you merely schlep over here once in a blue moon to spout off the same old stale complaints about the other posters here (people you don't know from Adam), then you have the jangles to dub yourself "the lone voice of optimism" or some other garbage. I guess that's what you need to get off or something.
Fish tastes good!
Wow, I think you really need to calm down. I think you've completely ignored my points in favor of developing an irrational hatred of me. I'll let it pass this this time, but next time, I'll report it as harrassment (isn't that what YOU do to other posters who don't see eye to eye with you?)
Sorry we couldn't be better friends!
Feeling a bit snarky today are we? Not that it wasn't amusing though...
No, just hungry.;)
Wow, I think you really need to calm down. I think you've completely ignored my points in favor of developing an irrational hatred of me. I'll let it pass this this time, but next time, I'll report it as harrassment (isn't that what YOU do to other posters who don't see eye to eye with you?)
Sorry we couldn't be better friends!
No, I don't report posters who don't see eye to eye with me (though I'm not surprised you interpreted that way!).
I report posters who come by here just to snipe at people, like you do. I'm not afraid of you, I'm not sorry we can't be friends, and I think it's hilarious how you act all innocent, blindsided and huffy when called out on YOUR harassment.
As Markus said, as of now you are what they call a "drive-by poster" (though I'm content to leave it at "blobfish"). It's not your opinions that turn people off, it's your attitude.
I didn't want this to turn into another rant, but it makes me friggin' nuts when someone says something stupid like "You all hate change", because that only describes a very small minority of the nay-sayers.
Exactly. "You hate all change!"--wow, that's such an insightful argument, and certainly one we've never heard before. I'm sure many hearts will be deeply moved.
Rhee, may I have an apple crumble cake with Vanilla Icecream as desert?
Yes--I'm happy you found the entree to be sizzlingly satisfying.;)
-So, uh...That was a nice opening day ceremony at Shea today, eh?
-Geeze, Rino...You feeling okay?
I'm fine, but thanks for asking.
I still think that blobfish picture is funny.
Also, I'd like to thank Karsus and Stigger for lending my viewpoint some thought, rather than shrieking like a banshee and yelling stone-the-witch. Ha ha
If you want a discussion, make an argument rather than just dismissing the content of hundreds of posts by dozens of people outright. What specifically do you find inadequate about the reasons given for disliking what we know about Realms-2008?
-I see. Did the Dark Path make it any worse? Better, perhaps?
Easier, more seductive. Better grades. :D
...At least we can agree that we like Aboleths.
Sorry, don't think so. :P
As for the so-called pessimist having no valid reason for disliking the changes. Countless posts on many threads expounded on why people dislike the changes. They go beyond just irrational dislike. While those reasons, in your opinion, may not be valid, they do offer plenty of solid reasons.
Face it, your opinion to like the new Realms at this point is as biased as those who dislike it. This is not to say one cannot like the new Realms. Just happens to be that many people who choose to speak up here dislike it.
Personally, I feel the opposite of what you feel. I don't find any valid reason to like the new Realms (given by posters here or designers). While the official attitude towards the old Realms put forth by the company is to view it as severely flawed, even some designers feel that is merely a perception. So aside from some superficial misconceptions, what valid reason is there for these changes? Not much beyond hype marketing that could have been (and still concurrently should be) achieved through other methods.
And as we haven't actually seen the setting, proclaiming support for the changes isn't really based on anything more than semi-official hearsay at this point... of course the inverse is also true to a certain extent, so take that for what you will.
This point is stipulated. That said, I like the Far Realms and I've been excited to get some support for them in the Forgotten Realms (which is something I personally like). From what I understand, you do not, which is of course the milage that varies.
And you're correct, I hate the Far Realms with a burning fire of a million suns... not particularly rational dislike of them actually, just got done to death on me, so now I just dismiss them out of hand... but theres only so many times I can take seeing them before it gets blandly predictable.
As to the hate... just walk away would be my advice. Its accomplishing no purpose at this point. Don't be a hater, be a participator... :D
I'm fine, but thanks for asking.
-Alright, as long as you are feeling okay. I rarely see you so feisty.
I still think that blobfish picture is funny.
-I actually found it extremely frightening. I have ichtyophobia.
Easier, more seductive. Better grades. :D
-I'm all for it, then. But, I don't believe in a 'Light Side' and a 'Dark Side', so that would make persuing either path a little difficult.
You know, it's not often that seeing something on the Internet makes me reconsider my own behavior. But for what it's worth, I can see that my own rather brash entry into these boards a couple weeks ago probably ruffled some feathers. In retrospect, after seeing "Friendly"fish's tone and trying to react to it in a rational manner has become rather onerous... if there's anyone still irked with me for my initial tone - I sincerely apologize. I wouldn't change my opinions, but I would go back and change my tone.
-When you first debuted, I couldn't stand you. Especially your comments at the Ask-the-Author thread. I like you now, though. You're cool. ;)
My point was in plain sight, it was a valid viewpoint, however because it's not in agreement with your posse's acceptable thought-mode right now, I'm getting dogpiled. Which is fine, all in the spirit of good fun and whatnot.
-As I originally said, your viewpoint is incorrect, as there have been, in the past, various debates analyzing, breaking down point-by-point, situation-by-situation, and debunking and challenging the various points made by designers as well as other forum members. There are currently, off the top of my head, three "in-depth" threads ongoing about the outcome, reasoning and validity of the various changes being done to the realms. Just as a lack of knowledge of a specific law doesn't make one immune to it, the lack of knowledge of these various threads doesn't make your point- that the widespread dislike of what is being done to the setting is simply akin to 'riot herd behavior', with no one having real substance behind their opinions, since they are just following "the next guy (or girl)"- is incorrect.
-Alright, as long as you are feeling okay. I rarely see you so feisty.
I know, it's rare that happens. But yeah, I'm all right.
-I actually found it extremely frightening. I have ichtyophobia.
I like the sad look on it's face. And yes, if you look at the droopy mouth, you can see a parasite.
That's our blobfish on a bad day!Face it, your opinion to like the new Realms at this point is as biased as those who dislike it. This is not to say one cannot like the new Realms. Just happens to be that many people who choose to speak up here dislike it.
Also, if someone dislikes the changes, why do they owe anyone an explanation as to why?
If someone says they like the changes, I'm not going to demand that they explain why they like them (and most other people here wouldn't do that either).
Thanks.
LK actually provided a fairly good spectrum of pro-4e posters back there, so if you're looking for a more positive opinion on them, you might try to do a member search or something...
-Off the top of my head, the list includes, but is not limited to:
ArcTan
Bluenose
D1Tremere
dimonic
krownhunter07
LiXinjian
Rauric
The_Ubbergeek
-All, of course, have opinions that can change on any given day, base on new/altered information. For the most part.
I know, it's rare that happens. But yeah, I'm all right.
-All right, then.
I like the sad look on it's face. And yes, if you look at the droopy mouth, you can see a parasite.
-That just made it even scarier. Thanks.
--That just made it even scarier. Thanks.
You're welcome.
As for being "pro-4E", I'm pro-4E, just not pro-4E Realms. I'm intrigued by the new rules and the "core setting" (which isn't really a setting, but a collection of ideas). I would try 4E out, if given the chance, but not in a post-Spellplague Realms game.
I'd also like to clarify that being "pro-4E" doesn't mean I'm "anti" 3E or any previous set of rules.
--All, of course, have opinions that can change on any given day, base on new/altered information. For the most part.
Yeah, doesn't Markus change his opinion, like, every day?:P
You're welcome.
-Laughing at my misfortune...
I'd also like to clarify that being "pro-4E" doesn't mean I'm "anti" 3E or any previous set of rules.
-I meant that list as in generally supporting the changes to the Forgotten Realms exclusivley. Sorry.
Yeah, doesn't Markus change his opinion, like, every day?:P
-I remember, he's actually changed his opinion on an issue twice within the course of a day. :D
-What was it...It was a while ago. Something about Dwarves? Maybe with the changes to the Mordinsamman, and the Duergar and Derro, come 4e.
-Laughing at my misfortune...
Sorry, but I find anything remotely related to that blobfish picture funny.
-I meant that list as in generally supporting the changes to the Forgotten Realms exclusivley. Sorry.
No need to apologize, I was just throwing in my two cents on the matter.
For what it's worth, I definitely wouldn't be on that list.
-I remember, he's actually changed his opinion on an issue twice within the course of a day. :D
I'm not surprised...
Here are my reasons for not liking 4e Realms and 4e in general, since I am tired of others saying "I am afraid of change", and lumping all of us together.
The whole thing personally smells of a huge ego trip. "I can do better and make it more acceptable to the public and attract alot of people who don't want to play a thinking game" seems to be the plot line to this whole deal.
Another thing I hear is how smooth game play is in the new system.
I have been playing and DM ing for almost 30 years. Rare are the occurences where game play was bogged down due to rules. If your game keeps bogging down, the DM is at fault and letting a rules lawyer disrupt the game - end of story."The Realms has too many powerful NPC's!!" is another complaint (again by a minority that usually doesn't even play the Realms) Umm, yeah, so do the other settings. If the powerful NPC's are too involved in the plot line, again that is the DM's fault, not the designers or the settings.
Change for the sake of change is not EVER a good idea. It usually is the result of others just trying to get things to benefit themselves, or to get them noticed. All of these changes are due to small minority that, and I quote from several different designers, "We didn't like it". Really? Thats is your reason to change things that have a long history and loyal fan base who are happy with the product as stands? Wow, what a trip!
There is honestly no rationale to remove Vancian magic. It is the best system ever developed for adjudicating magic, and I have played just about every game system out there, and nothing compares. But people complained "it's too hard". Thus the dumbing down. Make it easy like an MMO where all that stuff is figured out for you and you just point and click. Yawn!
There is no rationale for removing Mystra and many other gods from the Realms. Oh I forgot, a small minority that doesn't play in the Realms complained and said "We don't like it, it is too hard!!".
And lets not forget the subtle plot lines to achieve all of these RSE's
, my 8 year old tells better stories.So my problem with $e and the Realms are that there was/is no reason to change anything except a bunch of whiners and those with huge egos are influencing the changes. Not one of the reasons give for the changes has been anything but that.
Are those good enough, Fish? I'm not calling you out, but are those detailed enough for you? I am just repeating several things that I have read through out numerous threads that I agree with and cannot find a rational answer to. Not even the designers.
I have more if you want them.
Seriously, I want to know if we as loyal Realmsians have the right to intelligently discuss these issues, with out being told we are being crybabies, when most of the changes are because of the crybabies.
They are saying there is no magic in the Realms for 10 years, and to "jump" forward in your existing campaign...
That has got to be the STUPIDEST bunch of crapola I have ever heard.
Based on this, I don't see how Waterdeep the city will survive as magic is what basically keeps the place from sinking in on itself...
Since Waterdeep is the place I like to run the most, I'm not particullarly digging the changes. I will ignore the canon, and play as I want.
When the new FR is released we have 2 choices. We can embrace it through purchase of the new material or voice out displeasure by not buying it.
Whoever is the majority in this will determine the outcome. I for one, will vote with my dollar. WOTC won't see a penny from me. Period, the end.
The mod said not to discuss people... :P
This point is stipulated. That said, I like the Far Realms and I've been excited to get some support for them in the Forgotten Realms (which is something I personally like). From what I understand, you do not, which is of course the milage that varies.
Have you tried playing Cthulhu? Thats an entire setting (several, actually) that is for people who like that sort of thing. Also, Eberron is has a LOT of aberration-flavor - it's part of it's history (the Delkyr). Unfortunetly, I don't see why it had to be copy & pasted to FR.
-Off the top of my head, the list includes, but is not limited to:
ArcTan
Bluenose
D1Tremere
dimonic
krownhunter07
LiXinjian
Rauric
The_Ubbergeek
I'd add Mula and Miscellany to that. Charles Phipps used to be 'one of them', but I think we've brought him over to the Dark Side.
Yeah, doesn't Markus change his opinion, like, every day?:P
Sometimes 2-3 times, actually. ;)
-I remember, he's actually changed his opinion on an issue twice within the course of a day. :D
QFT - at least LK knows me very well. :D
By way of explanation - I'm normally very calm, but I also have a short fuse when something gets under my skin. I hated everything about 4e FR as we started getting 'hints' about it, but then RB did his 'Countdown' article, focusing on all the stuff that WON'T change. I was elated, and became a 4e FR supporter (temporarily). Then BC's Countdown article came out, and it torpedo'd all my hopes that our fears were unjustified. If anything, that article proved it was WORSE then we feared - Hence, my vehement opinion against 4e FR ever since. As time goes on, I get used to something (even if I hate it) and I let it go... but then they print something else - like a FRCG WITHOUT a logo! - and it sets me off again. What can I say? They push my buttons, and I push theirs right back.
About the rules - I still love everything I am hearing about them, and have NEVER said otherwise. What I have been saying is that I am considering, for the first time ever, of not moving forward into a new edition, DESPITE how good the rules may be. I have several reasons for that, including not wanting to learn a new system, not wanting to invest in a new system, and lastly, not wanting to give any more money to WotC (because of FR).
Also, because I am not moving FR out of 3e, it will just be easier for me to continue to run MY FR using 3e rules, including using offerings from companies like Paizo and Malhavic. That doesn't mean I think the 4e rules are bad - quite the contrary. The only reason why I am still considering using them at all is because they sound so damn good.
I have no interest at all in 4e FR though, but that doesn't make me a bad person. I also have no interest in playing MERPs, even though I LOVE LotRs. The 4e Realms are NOT the old Realms, and even the people in charge have said so (in fact, its been their mantra). It has nothing to do with not liking change, and everything to do with not liking the new setting that has been dubbed The Forgotten Realms.
If I fall in love with a girl named sally, and she gets killed, I wouldn't go out and try to find some other girl named 'sally' - get my drift? ;)
I'm not a huge fan of all the Realms changes, but this kinda stuff just seems like Grandpa Simpson rambling. If I've stepped on anybody's lawn while pointing this out, sorry.
I'm with you, man, but don't say it too loud or the natives will get restless. You might get gummed to death.
I don't mind this kind of discussion anyhow. I come out ahead because at the end of the day, there are definitely going to be aberrations and aboleth in the FR going forward, so I'm satisfied. Anything else is sour grapes.
Might as well put that picture that Rinonalyrna found on the front of the FR 4E Monster Manual, because that's what's up. I, for my part, am changing my name to HappyAboleth.
Just remember, this is a hobby. People get very tied up in and emotionally invested in their hobbies, and when someone comes in and blows up your security blanket in a uncertain world, you're gonna get a bit upset over it. There's nothing that says that people have to be logical or rational when discussing stuff like this... nor that they should be. If they want to gripe or whine, let them and leave them be, which ideally should apply to both pro-4e and anti-4e crowds around here.
Think of it as venting frustration to keep from murdering spouses, children, neighbors, and co-workers then...
Just remember, this is a hobby. People get very tied up in and emotionally invested in their hobbies, and when someone comes in and blows up your security blanket in a uncertain world, you're gonna get a bit upset over it. There's nothing that says that people have to be logical or rational when discussing stuff like this... nor that they should be. If they want to gripe or whine, let them and leave them be, which ideally should apply to both pro-4e and anti-4e crowds around here.
What a perfectly logical and rational statement. I agree! :D
They killed off Halaster in such a way he can never be brought back. Period, the end.
-Well, he could. It's just very complicated. The shattered fragments of his coul would need to be unified, and then a Resurrection would work.
I'd add Mula and Miscellany to that. Charles Phipps used to be 'one of them', but I think we've brought him over to the Dark Side.
-Mula and Misc, I don't know. Sometimes, I think they don't specifically endorse things wholesale, but instead, are just being contrary.
QFT - at least LK knows me very well. :D
-Of course.
-Well, he could. It's just very complicated. The shattered fragments of his coul would need to be unified, and then a Resurrection would work.
Also, this is the Realms. Anything is possible if the WotC designers decide to make it so (and that's neither a postive statement nor a negative one--that's just how it is).
I just wanted to ask: Isn't there a thread in the 4e forum about Criticism and Concerns? I just noted a lot of threads getting derailed of late.
I'm just worried some of our better FR Guru's are being absorbed by such threads.
Personally I kind of like the Far Realms being 'noticed' in this way in canon, it makes it easier to introduce elements that change the mood in game. (Though the Plane of Shadows kind of fills the same niche.)
You can add my name to that list Lord_Karsus (You know, if you want...)
Anthony
Also, this is the Realms. Anything is possible if the WotC designers decide to make it so (and that's neither a postive statement nor a negative one--that's just how it is).
-Indeed. Halaster can have some kind of wards on him that reunite his soul come 4e, and he's still the Mad Mage of Undermountain.
I just wanted to ask: Isn't there a thread in the 4e forum about Criticism and Concerns? I just noted a lot of threads getting derailed of late.
-Yes, the entire 4e Forgotten Realms section.
*On that note: Terrorize! *Transforms into a Robot T-Rex*
It'd be cool if Halaster would return as some new intangible enemy terrorizing* undermountain, any thoughts on what he could come back as?
-As the spell Reincarnate exists, the possibilities are theoretically endless.
-I'm all for it, then. But, I don't believe in a 'Light Side' and a 'Dark Side', so that would make persuing either path a little difficult.
I like to think of it more like a Dark Side "lite"... fewer calories, no embarrassing dental issues or burned off limbs, but the same great lightning.
-When you first debuted, I couldn't stand you. Especially your comments at the Ask-the-Author thread.
Understandable... right before I arrived, I was worked up into a serious froth about the Spellplague changes (and I hadn't seen any real details until that week; most of you had lived with them for quite some time). I think my inner gamer gave a silent ("KHAAAAN!") scream and went a little mad. But all things lose their sting in time... and sublimating it as satire has proved useful.
I like you now, though. You're cool. ;)
Thanks, you too. Here's a round of Zzar for everyone! :D
I like to think of it more like a Dark Side "lite"... fewer calories, no embarrassing dental issues or burned off limbs, but the same great lightning.
-I'll be going to Graduate School eventually, probably. My original plan, "back in the day", when I was young and naive, was to get a Masters in Criminal Justice. That stuff really isn't my cup of tea. Should I ever go back, it'll be in either Psychology, Sociology, or Philosophy. More likely one of the first two.
IThanks, you too. Here's a round of Zzar for everyone! :D
*On that note: Terrorize! *Transforms into a Robot T-Rex*
So Wizards wants to make money, huh? Yes, we can download all the old 1st and 2nd edition stuff for free, but somehow, I don't think they're going to do that with the 3e version.
Daenaan, I think you're pretty cool now, too.
Likewise.
Another round of Zzar for everyone! :DYes, we can download all the old 1st and 2nd edition stuff for free...
-Wait, we can? Where? I mean, I know WotC offers some stuff, but, all...
Likewise.
-I'm not easy, just so everyone knows.
Good god! I got one up on LK!
It's right here on these Boards. Somewhere under the downloads section.
Good god! I got one up on LK!
That's hardly the sum total of older edition stuff... which was LK's point. Note the emphasized "all" up there.
-Exactly. Concerning just the 2e Forgotten Realms material availible, it is not a very sizable portion of the total published supplements.
There were a couple that weren't available anywhere, and more 'nefarious' means were required for their aquisition...
Why do you like FR? No, really, why? Was it the massive amount of detail? The canon support? The fact that it has remained mostly the same (RSEs notwithstanding) since 1e? The detailed NPCs and pantheons? The high-magic and -fantasy feel? Something else?
Chances are good that you have a few specific reasons for starting with FR. You saw something (or several somethings) that you liked and decided to give it a try. So yes, you're biased towards the Realms, because you've played in it for a while, right?
Not really. Those criticizing defenders of the current Realms are saying that the only reason you don't like 4e FR is that 3e FR does things The Way They Have Always Been Done, and 4e FR changes that. On the contrary, I think it's that you know exactly what you want in a setting, and if that setting doesn't have what you want, you won't play it. So rather than running and playing the Realms because they're the Realms, you're running and playing the Realms because they happen to match what you want in a setting.
Having followed the 3e FR/4e FR debates for a while, I don't see why you would expect 3e FR fans to like the 4e Realms. You started playing FR because of all the detailed NPCs? Well, it's been 100 years; not many are left. You started playing FR because of the high levels of magic? Yeah...Spellplague. You started playing FR because of the high amount of details? Scratch detail about the parts that were just plain destroyed. You started playing FR for the canon support? It'll take a while to build that back up again. And the gods...well, let's not go there.
Expecting diehard 3e FR fans to like the 4e Realms is like expecting them to like Eberron--some might, and do, like Eberron just as much as FR...but if what you like is high-fantasy canon-driven story, then pulp-noir non-canon adventure won't be your cup of tea. You're going to pick the setting that matches your taste, not randomly choose a setting and adjust your tastes to match. No one expects FR fans to like Eberron because it's so different (again, many do, but it's not an automatic correlation), so why expect people to like 4e FR as well as 3e FR?
If it walks like a duck, swims like a ducks, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck...or a programmed image, or a polymorphed wizard, or a half-duck with max ranks in Disguise. Dismissing these concerns as simply an unwillingness to change is doing 1e-3e FR fans a disservice.
There were a couple that weren't available anywhere, and more 'nefarious' means were required for their aquisition...
Its a dodgy underworld. Tried it once. Woke up in a tub of ice, missing both a kidney and the grid from the back of my DMG.
...I think I want to take a closer look at Friendlyfish's point about biases.
-Ugh, let's not get started with him again.
Why do you like FR? No, really, why? Was it the massive amount of detail? The canon support? The fact that it has remained mostly the same (RSEs notwithstanding) since 1e? The detailed NPCs and pantheons? The high-magic and -fantasy feel? Something else?
-Yes, on every single count. The detail, the support, the fluidity of the setting, the people/places/personas/pantheons, and so on.
On the contrary, I think it's that you know exactly what you want in a setting, and if that setting doesn't have what you want, you won't play it. So rather than running and playing the Realms because they're the Realms, you're running and playing the Realms because they happen to match what you want in a setting.
-Correct.
...so why expect people to like 4e FR as well as 3e FR?
-At the end of the day, the 4-Gotten Realms are an official continuation of the current incarnation of the Forgotten Realms. Inherently changed, however, but they are synonymous. That said, many people feel that this is reason enough to enjoy the 4e setting. I don't subscribe to that kind of thinking, but...
Sure she's a different person completely, but the eyes are the same color, and the hair is pretty close, and Heck! You even get to call her by the same name as the girl you loved.
But she's not the same... not at all.
AND she's a hundred years OLDER.
AND she's a hundred years OLDER.
Its one of the reasons my wife gave me when she asked me to leave - no matter how serious I try to be, I always screw it up.
Like I have said before, to me its like the love of your life dies, and you immediately go out and try to hook-up with another woman with the same name.
Sure she's a different person completely, but the eyes are the same color, and the hair is pretty close, and Heck! You even get to call her by the same name as the girl you loved.
But she's not the same... not at all.
AND she's a hundred years OLDER.
-That's...kind of an apt analogy.
You know, at first I didn't have that, but I am forced by something beyond my control to turn everything into a joke - I think its a defense-mechanism gone amuck.
Its one of the reasons my wife gave me when she asked me to leave - no matter how serious I try to be, I always screw it up.
I do that alot too, I was involved in a car accident last week, one ofmy sargents knows a lil about D&D and he know about my Torm tattoo and when he got on the scene he aske me if I was alright and I rolled my sleave point at my tattoo and said "+5 Sacred bonus on any roll one per tenday!" :P
-Ugh, let's not get started with him again.
Sorry!
I just felt I had to address some misconceptions, lest they escape and reproduce.I rolled my sleave point at my tattoo and said "+5 Sacred bonus on any roll one per tenday!"
Well, this was after the crash, so obviously you didn't use it on your Profession (Driver) check....
Sorry!
-Just sayin'.
Well, this was after the crash, so obviously you didn't use it on your Profession (Driver) check....
-And they say Profession checks aren't useful...
-Just sayin'.
-And they say Profession checks aren't useful...
I know right! but seriously there was no way for me to avoid it (this girl T-boned a pick up on my right and the pick-up landed on my hood but I did pass my Ref since I was the only ne that could walk out of the accident while everyone else ended in the ER
That wasn't just a Reflex save, my friend; that was Improved Evasion with a contingent teleport. And congrats on the amazing Survival check. ;)
But enough with the emotions, more with the animating dead things. Speaking of dead things, let's talk ToT! Previously, the single biggest change in Realmspace and "canon" that we all had known and loved. I wish the Internet had existed back then, let alone message boards where I could have ranted and raved about my dear, sweet self and my two dead friends (though Big B's back with a vengeance...). But still, I struggled on to find myself and my place in this "Brave New World" and though it was in an old headpiece, I managed. So too did those who followed me.
My point is, we complain now. We'll complain years from now, but more than likely, we'll all probably end up buying the three books that come out this year. And most of us might even try 4e Realms once or twice (Though it sounds like not for a long time by some of the emotions - myself included).
-The Time of Troubles- that is, the changes and implications it had- are a far shot compared to the Spellplague, however.
-The Time of Troubles was a good concept. Just, the way it was executed didn't work out that great.
I never thought it was such a great concept regardless of the execution
-The Time of Troubles- that is, the changes and implications it had- are a far shot compared to the Spellplague, however.
Thats true. At least when the Time of Troubles was over we still had the Forgotten Realms
I never thought it was such a great concept regardless of the execution
-Why not?
Thats true. At least when the Time of Troubles was over we still had the Forgotten Realms
-Well, it's still the Forgotten Realms, but a greatly changed and different Forgotten Realms. Which is what I was alluding to. After the Time of Troubles, things were different, but...large swaths of the setting weren't blown up. Or entire races suddenly appearing.
-Why not?
I never liked the whole set up of throwing the gods to faerun. I generally don't like Gods as main players in novels or campaigns. Religions yes, the actual gods no. And having Helm be apart from it was dumb. Not to mention having those characters turn into deities was also dumb
-Well, it's still the Forgotten Realms, but a greatly changed and different Forgotten Realms. Which is what I was alluding to. After the Time of Troubles, things were different, but...large swaths of the setting weren't blown up. Or entire races suddenly appearing.
I know. I was agreeing with you
I never liked the whole set up of throwing the gods to faerun. I generally don't like Gods as main players in novels or campaigns. Religions yes, the actual gods no. And having Helm be apart from it was dumb. Not to mention having those characters turn into deities was also dumb
-That's where the execution part comes in. The premise behind the idea- casting deities down to become mortals for a limited time, because of whatever transgressions- was an interesting one. I felt, at least.
-That's where the execution part comes in. The premise behind the idea- casting deities down to become mortals for a limited time, because of whatever transgressions- was an interesting one. I felt, at least.
Yeah. I didn't really like it from the get-go
The execution, much like the new Spellplague, was terrible.
The ToT really could have rocked - I have seen authors pull gods into their stories - Michael Moorcock and Fritz Leiber just to name two - and do a terrific job with them.
The problem wasn't the ToT itself, it was the moronic writing. I felt like I was being forced to watch a 3rd-grader school play.
The premise, much like the new Spellplague, was good.
-I don't personally think that the premise behind the Spellplague was good, but it's acceptable. It's believable. It's not as bad as the 100-year jump.
The timejump and Abeir was a little too much - there was a complete disconnect for most of the fanbase at that point.
The Spellplague I think we could have all lived with.
The timejump and Abeir was a little too much - there was a complete disconnect for most of the fanbase at that point.
At this point, either one would have been enough for me to cut off my purchases of all future WotC material. Initially, I thought I could've lived with the Spellplague and Mystra's death as well, but with every little update we continue to see more and more really awful setting changes that resulted from it. The sum total effect of the Spellplague is just as bad as the 100-year forward jump.
I wish the Internet had existed back then, let alone message boards where I could have ranted and raved about my dear, sweet self and my two dead friends (though Big B's back with a vengeance...).
It did, albeit in a slow, ponderous and ever-frustrating kind of way.
Bulletin boards, AOL and mailing lists.
And we talked about just the subjects you bring up.
Maybe I've got rose colored glasses on, but it sure seemed like people were more interested in sharing information and ideas about FR and their FR campaigns then they were interested in purely complaining, back then.
People's (online) enthusiasm for the Realms seemed more intense back then too. People were more passionate, I think.
The clue is, some people forgot what RPG is for. It's role is to entertain, give fun, met friends and live fictional adventures. The less we complain and the more we play, it would be better.
Changes to the Realms are drastic, but if you don't like them, you are not forced to implement them. I like Realms for their "brightness", high fantasy feeling and being "optimistic". After 4th E they will stay the same. End of sotry.
The Spellplague I think we could have all lived with.
The timejump and Abeir was a little too much - there was a complete disconnect for most of the fanbase at that point.
-Agreed, on both counts.
Changes to the Realms are drastic, but if you don't like them, you are not forced to implement them. I like Realms for their "brightness", high fantasy feeling and being "optimistic". After 4th E they will stay the same. End of sotry.
-None of which bars people from sharing their opinions about things.
-The Time of Troubles was a good concept. Just, the way it was executed didn't work out that great.
I can't be too biased against the ToT because I first got into the Realms thanks to a story that used an indirect result of the Time of Troubles as a major plot point. I speak of the Baldur's Gate saga--Bhaal might not have ever made children if he hadn't forseen his own death.
The Spellplague I think we could have all lived with.
The timejump and Abeir was a little too much - there was a complete disconnect for most of the fanbase at that point.
Actually I think the Spellplague in itself is too much for me. And no, I don't like the premise of it either.
Maybe I've got rose colored glasses on, but it sure seemed like people were more interested in sharing information and ideas about FR and their FR campaigns then they were interested in purely complaining, back then.
Yes, you do sound like you have rose-colored glasses on.
I can't be too biased against the ToT because I first got into the Realms thanks to a story that used an indirect result of the Time of Troubles as a major plot point. I speak of the Baldur's Gate saga--Bhaal might not have ever made children if he hadn't forseen his own death.
-People often disregard all of the "good" that came from the Time of Troubles, because it killed Myrkul, and Mystra, and Bane, and all of that. There's more positive than negative, in it, I'll say that much. Just the entire part with extraplanar deities being cast down and all of that...Opens up some problems.
-People often disregard all of the "good" that came from the Time of Troubles, because it killed Myrkul, and Mystra, and Bane, and all of that. There's more positive than negative, in it, I'll say that much.
Like what? What are the positives you see in the Time of Troubles that outweigh the negatives?
Like what? What are the positives you see in the Time of Troubles that outweigh the negatives?
-Well, for one thing, as Rin mentioned, there would not have been any Baldur's Gate games. While I haven't played them, they were, I hear, very good, and introduced many people to the Forgotten Realms. Another positive was that deities afterwards became more "indebted" to their followers, and thus, the "current era" of divine-secular relations was born. I also, as mentioned, like the concept of deities being cast down as mortals to pay for their crimes committed "against" mortals (ie, using them as pawns, ignoring them, etc.).
-Well, for one thing, as Rin mentioned, there would not have been any Baldur's Gate games. While I haven't played them, they were, I hear, very good, and introduced many people to the Forgotten Realms. Another positive was that deities afterwards became more "indebted" to their followers, and thus, the "current era" of divine-secular relations was born. I also, as mentioned, like the concept of deities being cast down as mortals to pay for their crimes committed "against" mortals (ie, using them as pawns, ignoring them, etc.).
It's interesting, Baldur's Gate is still hailed as an excellent game, even by today's standards with animation and 1st-person play. I absolutely loved it, and still play it sometimes. :D It's seen a ton of re-issues over the years, the last one being a compilation of the whole series. The core storyline is a very compelling one, and it was done -very- well with a real nod to all the details and sub-plots, I think. It completely had that Realmsian feel, they captured it so well.
In contrast, the book series that's actually canon... not as well done, particularly with the portrayals of Jaheira and "Abdel Adrian". But that's another deal entirely.
Is that the series that had the Bhaalspawn and all of that?
-Yeah, that's the one.
In fact, I still used the campaign setting published in First Edition for most of my information on my early 2nd Edition Realms campaigns. The 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms Adventures sourcebook was only needed for those things that had changed - namely the addition of specialty priests, and a few things on different deities. The point was, it felt like a very smooth transition, despite the major events that had taken place.
The transition to 3rd edition necessitated a new campaign sourcebook, but mainly (I felt) because the new edition had altered the mechanics significantly to make easy conversions somewhat more difficult. I still felt perfectly comfortable in using 2nd and 1st edition sourcebooks for things that the 3rd edition had not fleshed out, or that it did not go into the detail I wanted on. When I couldn't find enough, or didn't want to track down an out-of-print book, I just filled in the gaps by making things up myself.
As far as the changes to the Realms in Fourth Edition, I'll echo the above poster - it's too much. Too many things are changing, too quickly. It feels like too much of a disconnect for me to feel any sort of continuity. Furthermore, many of the elements that I enjoyed are being removed. Were that not enough, I am dissatisfied with both the reasoning cited for their removal, and the manner in which they were removed from the storyline.
Thus, it feels to me that the Fourth Edition Realms no longer bear the comforts of a familiar setting. It feels different, almost alien, and seems to require that I approach it as if it were an entirely new setting due to the large number of changes and the massive time gap. However, I don't find myself viewing it with the sense of discovery and wonder that I normally do with a new campaign/novel/game/etc world. I already know the history... instead, I am reminded of what is missing.
Change is not a bad thing. Change is, in fact, usually a necessary and vital thing. If the Realms never changed, they would indeed be stagnant, boring, and we would not find room for new stories, be they novels, supplements, or ones of our own design.
But that does not mean that all change is good. Change too much, too fast, and many of us are left waking up one morning, and looking around, only to realize that we no longer recognize most things. Changing beloved aspects of a gameworld can also be tenuous ground. This does not mean that sacred cows should never be touched - and sometimes they do need to be changed, too. But utmost care must be taken when doing so. How the change happens, and how it changes, can be far more important than what changes.
Change is not a bad thing. Change is, in fact, usually a necessary and vital thing. If the Realms never changed, they would indeed be stagnant, boring, and we would not find room for new stories, be they novels, supplements, or ones of our own design.
-The Forgotten Realms were always changing. That's the beauty of a "living" setting. Every adventure, every sourcebook, every novel (even every reply made by Ed Greenwood, or other authors) added to the setting.
Change is not a bad thing. Change is, in fact, usually a necessary and vital thing. If the Realms never changed, they would indeed be stagnant, boring, and we would not find room for new stories, be they novels, supplements, or ones of our own design.
That was the big theme I took away from Ed Greenwood at GenCon 2007.
The Realms must change.
I want to re-discover parts of the Realms I've never used in my own campaigns and I want to re-discover all of the Realms post-spellplague.
Should be fun!
:D
I'm also sure there's no pleasing everyone. I'm sure that no matter what they did, some people would be upset (and conversely, some people will probably love it no matter what they do, either).
Myself... too much, too fast, too expansive, and too invasive. If I'm going to have to learn a new gameworld, I'd rather explore something different, honestly. I'll probably go look into Golarion, most likely. To put it this way, I'd just about rather get involved in Azerothian lore (i.e., the gameworld that Warcraft is set in) - at least there I sort of know what to expect (or so I feel of late, that is).
That's not to say I won't still be interested in the Old Realms, or that I'm not interested in seeing how certain storylines play out. I'll likely still pick up and read the third book of the Thay trilogy, because I found the first two to be enjoyable, and I definitely want to read the rest of the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy (just because Aliisza is one of my favorite characters of late... sadly, that seems to mean lately that she's fated for some sort of horrible end).
The Realms must change.
-Hmm...Elaborate on this.
-Hey, come on. Let's keep it civil, folks. Everyone's allowed their own opinions.
Even me, eh?
I find any enthusiuasm about the 'gutting of a campaignsetting' very strange.
If one cannot speak(write) the truth, then what's the point of having a forum?
The 'imaginative changes' to the Realms are ...less than adequate, and I could come up with better 'imaginative changes' in order to 'improve' the Realms in say... about two minutes. That's my opinion, and I reserve the right to express it.
18DELTA ;)
Even me, eh?
-Yes, everyone. You can speak your mind, he can speak his mind, she can speak her mind, and so on and so on. There's no need to insult others, though, because of differences of opinion. At least, not publicly, anyway. Feel free to think about others as you wish. ;)
I find any enthusiuasm about the 'gutting of a campaignsetting' very strange.
If one cannot speak(write) the truth, then what's the point of having a forum?
-I agree with the first point. And, there are ways to express that without violating the CoC.
The 'imaginative changes' to the Realms are ...less than adequate, and I could come up with better 'imaginative changes' in order to 'improve' the Realms in say... about two minutes. That's my opinion, and I reserve the right to express it.
-No one said you don't have the right to express it. Everyone has the right to express whatever opinions they have, so long as they do not violate the CoC. Some comments made did violate the CoC. That's a no-no. Sharing opinions that don't violate the CoC. That's good. We encourage that.
-WOW a thread I didn't raise from the Dead! :P
18DELTA ;)
-Yeah, well...The conversation wasn't/isn't done, and we've got self-imposed numbers to meet. I do that, from time to time. ;)
Even me, eh?
No. I'm pretty sure you are not allowed
I'm glad we understand each other, anyhow, Lord Karsus
So, I'll rephrase myself:
If any of you readers are thrilled with the new changes to the Forgotten Realms(Mr. Miscellany, for example;) ), please explain to me how the Spellplague(and the rest of the drastic changes) improved the setting.
I am certain that there are others than me that would be very interested to hear your (elaborated)views upon that matter.
Well, what I wrote may have looked a bit harsh. However, that wasn't really my intent, though. I was so ...stunned, that's all.
I'm glad we understand each other, anyhow, Lord Karsus
So, I'll rephrase myself:
If any of you readers are thrilled with the new changes to the Forgotten Realms(Mr. Miscellany, for example;) ), please explain to me how the Spellplague(and the rest of the drastic changes) improved the setting.
I am certain that there are others than me that would be very interested to hear your (elaborated)views upon that matter.
It improves the Realms by giving it a true high magic feel. That has been lacking in the realms... There are few signs of all the high level wizards running around (mostly mythals and portals), up until 3e we had almost no floating buildings. Fantastic terrain, new free floating magical effects, and a few other twists make the realms an actual fantasy realm, and not just a group of historical earth settings. Yes it seems they took plaguelands from Eberron, but so? Most of the fantasy elements were taken from some other setting or book, right down to the various humanoid species (most taken from Tolkien). A good idea is a good idea, regardless of its origin. (And yes I know Tolkien took his races from even earlier sources... Which just illustrates my point further.)
So, I'll rephrase myself:
If any of you readers are thrilled with the new changes to the Forgotten Realms(Mr. Miscellany, for example;) ), please explain to me how the Spellplague(and the rest of the drastic changes) improved the setting.
-There you go. That's much better.
It improves the Realms by giving it a true high magic feel. That has been lacking in the realms...
-How does that improve the setting? That these elements have been lacking, and always have been lacking, this demonstrates that they just aren't...native, they aren't natural, for a lack of better words.
-Sharks are dangerous creatures. By giving them lasers on top of their heads, that makes them even more dangerous. Their danger level would certainly increase with long range laser weaponry. Doesn't seem right, though, does it, sharks with lasers on their heads?
-Just like, by giving sharks lasers, you are making them more dangerous predators, but you are turning them into creatures that G-d/evolution/both never intended.
Yet, do I want to play in this sort of world?
Certainly, some people really like the steampunk concepts. Others don't, and enjoy things running the full gamut from SP and similar high-magic games, to very low-magic ones. I would classify traditional FR somewhere in the middle, perhaps in the "medium" magic range. That is to say, magic is commonplace enough that it has a role, but is not so easily employed that it becomes something that is readily used in everyday life. Instead, it is the stuff of heroes and villains, rather than the common individual.
It's perfectly fair to be of the opinion that the Realms would be more appealing to you, were they more Steampunkish - you're probably not alone. However, I think a number of Realms fans would strongly disagree (see any number of posts grumbling over a feeling that the Realms were potentially being "Eberron-ified").
Personally, I think the Realms were fine as they were, and that they have instead been shoehorned into a different sort of setting - one that had it been presented separately, I might have liked. For instance, I have nothing against Eberron - but then, it was introduced as its own setting, not as a major change to an existing setting. It's not as if they decided to take Oerth/Greyhawk or Krynn/Dragonlance and create a storyline whereby those worlds were turned into Eberron.
One can take the introduction of magic to its extreme evolutionary conclusion - whereby, as you said, things like castles and walls become obsolete. We start to get into things that are more the "Steam-Punk" genre, a la Eberron, or any number of similar settings.
Yet, do I want to play in this sort of world?
Certainly, some people really like the steampunk concepts. Others don't, and enjoy things running the full gamut from SP and similar high-magic games, to very low-magic ones. I would classify traditional FR somewhere in the middle, perhaps in the "medium" magic range. That is to say, magic is commonplace enough that it has a role, but is not so easily employed that it becomes something that is readily used in everyday life. Instead, it is the stuff of heroes and villains, rather than the common individual.
It's perfectly fair to be of the opinion that the Realms would be more appealing to you, were they more Steampunkish - you're probably not alone. However, I think a number of Realms fans would strongly disagree (see any number of posts grumbling over a feeling that the Realms were potentially being "Eberron-ified").
Personally, I think the Realms were fine as they were, and that they have instead been shoehorned into a different sort of setting - one that had it been presented separately, I might have liked. For instance, I have nothing against Eberron - but then, it was introduced as its own setting, not as a major change to an existing setting. It's not as if they decided to take Oerth/Greyhawk or Krynn/Dragonlance and create a storyline whereby those worlds were turned into Eberron.
I don't mean I want steampunk, I am not a big fan of the genre, what I want is some of the insanely high level of magic to start affecting the world in a more tangible way. I would rather have portals, even huge ones, than trains, wands than guns, etc. I am just saying that while magic is, in the realms, the stuff of heroes and villians, why would they keep it simple, some of the things I can think to do with even relatively low level spells would greatly change a city. A good example is what Zagyg did to the city of GH, he added odd enchantments to some of the gates and walls, crafted wards of unknown purposes, and left a legacy of oddities in the city he made his own.
I don't mean I want steampunk, I am not a big fan of the genre, what I want is some of the insanely high level of magic to start affecting the world in a more tangible way.
Again, that's certainly fine - Steampunk is only one potential result of that sort of 'magic becoming part of everyday life'. Magic as Technology is mostly the common result in a gameworld, if only because that's what we have a common frame of reference with.
That being said, though, it still doesn't detract from my point that the sort of world you're envisioning is not the kind of world that everyone wants to play in. A lot of us like the more mundane basis of the world, the medieval style of the underlying setting, with castles, villages, farms, and cities. FR, I think, did a good job of trying to cater to that basis, even at the same time there were alternative options for those who liked a bit more magic in daily life (Halruaa, for instance).
I, personally, don't want a world that has "magic is commonplace" as its basis. At the very least, that's not what has drawn me to the Forgotten Realms.
Yet, don't forget that walls and castles still keep the majority of threats out of your city/stronghold. Else why would we in our modern age of tanks, bombs, guns and airplanes still build barriers and walls along certain borders and areas of some countries that governments deem dangerous. Walls are still effective passive barriers, what completes the system is an active component such as guards and sensors. We have them today, and in a magical setting, they have their versions of those.
Those sorts of things do happen in the Realms. There is a great deal more utilitarian magic floating around the Realms than is apparent at first glance.
-You should know.
Again, that's certainly fine - Steampunk is only one potential result of that sort of 'magic becoming part of everyday life'. Magic as Technology is mostly the common result in a gameworld, if only because that's what we have a common frame of reference with.
That being said, though, it still doesn't detract from my point that the sort of world you're envisioning is not the kind of world that everyone wants to play in. A lot of us like the more mundane basis of the world, the medieval style of the underlying setting, with castles, villages, farms, and cities. FR, I think, did a good job of trying to cater to that basis, even at the same time there were alternative options for those who liked a bit more magic in daily life (Halruaa, for instance).
I, personally, don't want a world that has "magic is commonplace" as its basis. At the very least, that's not what has drawn me to the Forgotten Realms.
That's why they didn't put magical effects everywhere, just in a few regions, a lot of the older areas that we know and love will just have superficial changes, names of leaders and the like. But there will be a few more areas for people like me to enjoy as well.
That's why they didn't put magical effects everywhere, just in a few regions, a lot of the older areas that we know and love will just have superficial changes, names of leaders and the like. But there will be a few more areas for people like me to enjoy as well.
Well, as I've said to so many other things that were changed - "If this were the only thing changed, I probably wouldn't have a big objection." Pile them all together, and I just don't feel connected to the 'new' Realms, nor do I feel any inclination to try and overcome that lack of connection.
(not even counting ancient times in th Realms).
-Indeed. A list of some of the things the Imaskari did could fill an entire page. The Fortress of Sentinielspire, for instance. "Air conditioning" from the Plane of Air, "heating" from the Plane of Fire...
Cities that think mere walls and castles, are good defenses in a world of teleportation and dragons?
What about Silverymoon? That's the first city that comes to mind--it's full of wards.
I disagree that until now, the Realms were just a bunch of "historical earth cultures". Not really.
What about Silverymoon? That's the first city that comes to mind--it's full of wards.
I disagree that until now, the Realms were just a bunch of "historical earth cultures". Not really.
I didn't say that the whole realms were, just certain pieces, oddly enough the ones the creators never really did a lot with. Maybe they didn't feel that those regions are "Realmsy" enough, and that players did not want earth based setting, but rather high fantasy settings. Most of the realms are fantasy, and far enough from the RW that they can be enjoyed. A few were too RW and got changed.
A few were too RW and got changed.
And as I mentioned before, a few that weren't too RW got changed, too.
-How does that improve the setting? That these elements have been lacking, and always have been lacking, this demonstrates that they just aren't...native, they aren't natural, for a lack of better words.
-
A. Because it doesn't and B. Its not true.
Frankly, the spellplague does not improve the setting at all. In fact, its quite the opposite
Frankly, the spellplague does not improve the setting at all. In fact, its quite the opposite
-Well, the Spellplague itself isn't that bad. It's that coupled with everything else that breaks the camel's back.
-And, before I am accused of anything, playing a Calashite character, I have nothing but the utmost respect for camels.