I agree that WotC should not have gone the same route with FR that they did with Dragonlance.
IMNSHO, that was a stupid thing to do.
However, I don't agree with you that FR is now a complete(ly) new setting.
It isn't.
Much has changed, but much has remained the same.
For someone like me who has played in the setting for over two decades, it’s refreshing to explore and discover the more subtle changes to the Forgotten Realms of the future, and to introduce these to my players.
I can’t wait for more information on Cormyr’s new territory and expansion. I really want to put my players in these places and cut loose with the adventuring, intrigue and good roleplaying.
I hope that you come to enjoy the new FR setting -even if in only a small way.
If I don't like them, I'll use the old. Joy of RP/D&D ... if ya don't like an updated setting, either use the old one or change it how you want it to be changed.
IMHO the PTB made the same mistake they made with Dragonlance in the 1990s: a complete change of the setting to promote new rules. That failed then with Dragonlance and the SAGA system, which lead to the end Dragonlance as a D&D campaign setting. And fear that the same will happen to the Forgotten Realms. The changes between the 3e and 4e versions are much to drastic. The new version is not a continuation of the old one but a complete new setting.
-Well, if you don't like it, don't buy/use the new products. It's as simple as that, really.
-This is a related thread that is very much funny: How to gut a campaign setting
Hello Barbarossa Rotbart
I agree that WotC should not have gone the same route with FR that they did with Dragonlance.
IMNSHO, that was a stupid thing to do.
However, I don't agree with you that FR is now a complete(ly) new setting.
It isn't.
Much has changed, but much has remained the same.
For someone like me who has played in the setting for over two decades, it’s refreshing to explore and discover the more subtle changes to the Forgotten Realms of the future, and to introduce these to my players.
I can’t wait for more information on Cormyr’s new territory and expansion. I really want to put my players in these places and cut loose with the adventuring, intrigue and good roleplaying.
I hope that you come to enjoy the new FR setting -even if in only a small way.
Almost completely agreed.
Hello Barbarossa Rotbart
I agree that WotC should not have gone the same route with FR that they did with Dragonlance.
IMNSHO, that was a stupid thing to do.
However, I don't agree with you that FR is now a complete(ly) new setting.
It isn't.
Much has changed, but much has remained the same.
For someone like me who has played in the setting for over two decades, it’s refreshing to explore and discover the more subtle changes to the Forgotten Realms of the future, and to introduce these to my players.
I can’t wait for more information on Cormyr’s new territory and expansion. I really want to put my players in these places and cut loose with the adventuring, intrigue and good roleplaying.
I hope that you come to enjoy the new FR setting -even if in only a small way.
Agree. When I heard aobut the 100 year jump I was bummed. The possibilities for new games have made me want to run FR again though, and I don't even know much about the current setting. So I guess they succeeded here. I too am a fan of the Realms since 1987.
Nah, just joking I like that you prefaced your statement IMHO, it shows a realisation that your not the centre of the universe many D&D fans and posters lack.Now to respond OP...
How do you know that if you go in with an open heart and mind you won't like what you read? Previews and hints do not a full picture give. We can certainly get an impression but it's like looking at 100 pieces of a 1000 piece puzzle, often misleading.
When they did the entire Dragons of Summer Flame fiasco I was unimpressed but I picked up the Saga box set and gave it a go. After a couple of games I came to the informed opinion that whilst the mechanics were ok...ish the changes to fluff were to much against what I saw as Dragonlance for me to enjoy the game.
Before reading I didn't rant on about destroying DL or making it unplayable for any and all future players since I really couldn't know that and neither can any of us here. Yet!
After reading I gave a honest opinion highlighting what I disliked and why, and you know what people were pretty positive in their responses and we had some pretty cool discussions. You'll always get one or two who are jackasses mind you and refuse to accept that your opinion differs from theirs, but mostly you get what you give.
Finally I can get my teeth into the realms.
IMHO the PTB made the same mistake they made with Dragonlance in the 1990s: a complete change of the setting to promote new rules. That failed then with Dragonlance and the SAGA system, which lead to the end Dragonlance as a D&D campaign setting. And fear that the same will happen to the Forgotten Realms. The changes between the 3e and 4e versions are much to drastic. The new version is not a continuation of the old one but a complete new setting.
I dislike what I've seen of the 4E Realms, myself, but I've already said just about all I have to say about it (at least until the next bit of information gets thrown our way).
I view this as a reset more than a form of destruction. After over 20 years of history every time I dipped into the Realms I almost drowned. Now I can have the feel without all that history and meta-plot.
Well, it's not as if all that history is gone, as it would be if this were a true reset.
-All of those 36,000+ thousand years of history are still there. They're just further back. More historical. However you want to say it.
Ok let me re-phrase so you best understand where I'm coming from, the metaplot of the game is now largely gone, any attempt to run a game in the Silver Marchs (which I did try) found I was tripping over well established characters and people around the table didnt agree with me on how they should be presented.
Sure Drizzt, his dwarf mate and Elminsters are all still around (assuming they are not dead due to injury) but there exploits are in the past and as such dont really affect my game any more.
You see the problem is I'm a canon ***** (owing to my love of ravenloft) and to be constantly corrected in games I was running tired me stupid.
I see this new campaign setting as a snap shot of the same world in a different time with plenty of room for the players to have an impact without bumping into famous characters or plotlines.
Ok let me re-phrase so you best understand where I'm coming from, the metaplot of the game is now largely gone, any attempt to run a game in the Silver Marchs (which I did try) found I was tripping over well established characters and people around the table didnt agree with me on how they should be presented.
Sure Drizzt, his dwarf mate and Elminsters are all still around (assuming they are not dead due to injury) but there exploits are in the past and as such dont really affect my game any more.
You see the problem is I'm a canon ***** (owing to my love of ravenloft) and to be constantly corrected in games I was running tired me stupid.
I see this new campaign setting as a snap shot of the same world in a different time with plenty of room for the players to have an impact without bumping into famous characters or plotlines.
-All of that affected you only if you wanted it to affect you. ;)
-That said, the part I bolded is/was the problem, not the setting itself.
Novels are still canon, so you're probably going to be hosed once more in a few years full of novel cycles... ;)
Indeed. I'm so glad I don't care as much about "canon" anymore.
I view this as a reset more than a form of destruction. After over 20 years of history every time I dipped into the Realms I almost drowned. Now I can have the feel without all that history and meta-plot.
Finally I can get my teeth into the realms.
Interesting - what's the "feel" then, exactly?
-All of that affected you only if you wanted it to affect you. ;)
That's a whole hell of a lot easier to say than it is to have to deal with people in your face at the gaming table.
People really are like that. It's not stereotyping to peg your average uppity teenager as the type to stick it to an authority figure (read: Dungeon Master) by nitpicking over canon rules information.
Sometimes adults do that too. ;)
Can't say I ever did as anything other than as a common point of discussion for the sake of debates... and not really even then too much where novels were concerned. :D
In my own, highly uninformed, view such sentiments as these suggest some of the (many) reasons why I wish that the novels weren't canon :
a) Because with less canonical plot material people might not feel as swamped and hemmed in by it, could enjoy the game more and thus would require "resets" less often...
b) ...and if a setting reset was considered then we wouldn't have to see a fair number of interesting novel characters die because they got in the way of the game.
Although I am sure this has all been stated before by others who have phrased it far better than I.
Interesting - what's the "feel" then, exactly?
-Feels like paper. I like the glossy paper better, myself.
That's a whole hell of a lot easier to say than it is to have to deal with people in your face at the gaming table...
-Of course. Regardless, the DM is the authority at the table.
Afterall, if you want to write about a dragon hunter, all you need is a quick conference with mosjoor greenwood who will give a random town not much explored and a dragon nearby (or a offspring of this), that can be safely killed.
All the author needs is a few names, all of which fits easily on a A4 with a bunch of space, in big letters.
Now without a canonity, the places in the realms will go mostly unchanged, a kind of dead setting ala startreck where nothing that happened yesterday affaects today. That will suck, trust me..
Wonder if that will lead to quarterly "one year" -update jumps, at a dozen or two pages? (at a mere €29,99, or $39,99. Includes new battlemats and a plastic figure)
Regardless, the DM is the authority at the table.
True dat!
DMing really can teach people how to grow up. One of the good reasons to become a DM: You get wiser. ;)
Now without a canonity, the places in the realms will go mostly unchanged
Eberron fans don't seem to mind this. In fact they fought for it.
From what I've read, I have not liked a good deal of it, but I have liked some. From my posting name, you could probably guess that I did not like the end of the Time of Troubles, but I continued to play the world. Take what you like, fix what you don't, and have fun doing it all.
A recommendation - It took my group ten years to finally resurrect Myrkul as a Lesser deity in our games, but it has passed and we had a very good time doing it. So if your group wants to play the new FR but you do not, give them some nudges along a path to "fix" what you did not like and eventually, you may get it and probably have a nice challenge not only writing stories, but getting the group to go along with changing the Realms back to the way you wanted.
Just some suggestions.
True dat!
DMing really can teach people how to grow up. One of the good reasons to become a DM: You get wiser. ;)
one time some dude tried that with me like on the third time....:
Me:
Let me see you character sheet real quick Dude: *hands over character sheet*
Me:
*Rip character sheet* Dude:
Me:
Is my game, get the **** out of my table Players:
Too easy, right?
yes im sure it was the canonity of novels that created the problem in the first place, not so much volos guides (to be assumed to be incorrect) or the sourcebooks.
-This, I disagree with. The "canonicity" of novels is what makes the Forgotten Realms a living setting, one of it's main draws. Canon novels themselves aren't creating the "problem". The events in those canon novels are what are creating the "problem". While this might sound like the same exact thing, think about it: Which has "aggravated the problem" more: Son of Thunder, or Sacrifice of the Widow?
yes im sure it was the canonity of novels that created the problem in the first place, not so much volos guides (to be assumed to be incorrect) or the sourcebooks.
Afterall, if you want to write about a dragon hunter, all you need is a quick conference with mosjoor greenwood who will give a random town not much explored and a dragon nearby (or a offspring of this), that can be safely killed.
All the author needs is a few names, all of which fits easily on a A4 with a bunch of space, in big letters.
Now without a canonity, the places in the realms will go mostly unchanged, a kind of dead setting ala startreck where nothing that happened yesterday affaects today. That will suck, trust me..
Wonder if that will lead to quarterly "one year" -update jumps, at a dozen or two pages? (at a mere ⁈29,99, or $39,99. Includes new battlemats and a plastic figure)
Nope, no updates. Three books and then they're out.
Nope, no updates. Three books and then they're out.
-Of course, they've already confirmed that the setting will be receiving updates via articles on the fabled DDI, so...;)
Eberron fans don't seem to mind this. In fact they fought for it.
So what is good for the gander is good for the goose? And yet, some how there were folks that liked the Realms as an evolving and changing place. Hmmmmm, different folks liking different things in a campaign setting? Blasphemy!
18DELTA
Now without a canonity, the places in the realms will go mostly unchanged, a kind of dead setting ala startreck where nothing that happened yesterday affaects today. That will suck, trust me..
My apologies then. I was unaware that the setting was (almost) entirely dependent on novels to advance its storyline. I also apologise for the rushed nature of my messages, my thesis is due in 3 months and it is not going well ;) .
I shall indeed trust you, Ikki. Could you then help me to understand why my reasoning (as follows) is wrong.
Novels, by their nature, have always seemed to advance characters more than places. How often have I seen Waterdeep (mostly) unchanged by the passing of days when the characters within it have lived, died and thrived? A novel would seem to not be comprised of the view the narrator had, looking out on the street below his/her window measuring its changes day by day and year by year. Characters are developed by stories. Lands may be changed by those characters but it is the characters that are the focus, not the land.
So you take your dragon hunter, who started out life as a lowly swineherd, and have him grow to be a slayer of dragons. The story is filled with many tidbits about both land and man. It is fascinating to read, filled with both action, comedy and possibly even romance. People love it.
The company looks at this success and says to itself "Well, we could slaughter this guy, leave the rest of his story untold or... if we wrote another book about him, then it too should sell well and that is all to the good!".
The author writes the tale, and in the telling our slayer grows a little bit deeper, a little bit stronger ... and with more than a couple of books you have a hero (or heroine or group of heroes and heroines) famed throughout their home region.
Yet has this been going on in isolation? Is only one author or developer bringing on one character? I should think not, after all, why sell books about one character when you can have 5 lines going on simultaneously? The product? half a dozen, or more, Realms-shaking NPCs. Unless, of course, the authors kill off each as the changes in the realms that they were created to effect are brought to completion.
Seeing as a complaint that has been made, time and again on these boards, has been the fact that people feel overshadowed by the NPCs present in the literature, or the gods that should be less prevalent or the fact that (seemingly) nobody can carry out an adventure without feeling that NPC X, Y or Z should be doing the job for them... taking the canonity of these NPCs away, making the Realms shape them not them shape the Realms would seem to be, at least, mildly logical in nature. Then the calls of "But wouldn't X handle this?" wouldn't even have a chance to take shape, and perhaps a wholesale removal of those characters would not be required and perhaps those of us who enjoyed their stories could go on doing so for a while longer.
Now of course those arguments are based on problems that people have, not problems the setting has. And it does well to chronicle the life or the final days of the greater figures who are inherent to the setting be they lieges or liches (I've just finished Death of the Dragon for the first time... I cried)... and actually, I would like the novels to be canon. I just don't much enjoy what seems to be the logical progressive outcome of that "canonity".
Please, if my reasoning is fallacious, point out where. In this case I would dearly love to be wrong. Because if I am right, then the characters to come may end up suffering a very similar fate.
Please, if my reasoning is fallacious, point out where. In this case I would dearly love to be wrong. Because if I am right, then the characters to come may end up suffering a very similar fate.
-It is, in the sense that, as long as a single NPC is listed somewhere that is at least Level 2, the players can justifiably say that there are characters present in the setting that overshadow them. Generic Waterdhavian Guard 1 (Male Human Fighter 2) does indeed overshadow the band of Level 1 PCs. He can do things they cannot, is a better Fighter, has more HP, can do more powers/exploits/techniques/whatever. This logic would justifiably warrant, if one wants to "cater to the demand" the removal of every single NPC in the setting over Level 1.
This logic would justifiably warrant, if one wants to "cater to the demand" the removal of every single NPC in the setting over Level 1.
Except that the novels do not often chose to develop those level 2 guards. The theory is based around those people that are "selected for greatness" by author (and company). After all, we are told that (possibly) the Seven Sisters are varying degrees of no more... but how often do we hear specifically about the fact that Guard No. 7 on the walls of Somewhere-Interesting has shuffled off this mortal coil?
I was, I admit, assuming a minimum degree of development before an NPC came to attention of the players (to complain about) and the designs (to drop mountains on from a great height).
[EDIT: I will also admit that I have been in doctoral defense meetings that are less daunting than this discussion.]
Except that the novels do not often chose to develop those level 2 guards.
-I was basing the response against the general and generic "There are NPCs that overshadow my characters argument", and not specifically applying it to literature. But, regardless if this random Level 2 Fighter NPC is developed or not, he still fits the bill of overshadowing the player's characters, the crux of the point I was targeting specifically.
18DELTA :P
Other than that, life is about birth, growth, stagnation, weakening and dying.. It is a huge weakness noone seems to have written one of those stories as such yet, swineherd becoming a dragon slayer.. gets fat, has a few kids and dies.. kids kill eachother over the remains of the ineritance (the hoard).
One of which become a dandy noble, marries a princess & sees a minor kingdom rise... only to be chopped up by orcs.. queen killed and the ex-king setting up a swinefarm somewhere far far away.
Who in turn has a kid.. who eventually will become a dragonslayer, totally unaware of daddys background ;)
But, regardless if this random Level 2 Fighter NPC is developed or not, he still fits the bill of overshadowing the player's characters, the crux of the point I was targeting specifically.
Well seeing as my personal belief is that developed (or high-level) NPCs do not impact on the freedom of the player’s PC to act in a given situation I am already coming at this point from the wrong direction, so to speak… attempting to understand the reasoning behind why people I don’t agree with, do things I don’t like… surreal.
But anyway. your point...
Well, mechanically, of course the PCs will be overshadowed! And my reasoning for a lack of canonity has nothing to do with the removal of the infrastructure that supports the geo-political makeup of the Realms, the tier of power. That would be beyond daft, even for me.
My point, albeit badly phrased it seems, is that the characters developed by the novels are not only high level but are highly visible. In saying that, I mean that the PC may well care far more about the “overshadowing” caused by a character who is not only high level but also who has a history of scampering around sticking their nose (not always long and beaky) into many a pie, i.e. one with a developed set of behaviours and motivations… than Mr Herbert Stribble of 47 Elm Close who may well be the world’s greatest Collector Of The Tomes Of Doom but has never shown any inclination towards appearing at your local Bibliophiles Anonymous and taking on the forces of The Mad Librarians of Phut.
I was hoping that people would be a little less quick to sign the death warrants of characters if they didn’t feel that they were stealing their limelight. A suggestion that has less to do with raw level and a lot more to do with how they apply that level.
Iluvrien, your problem seems to be about authors that have their characters grow into demigods.
Actually, my problems is how people react to the characters that authors have turned into demigods. I like the authors, I like the characters (even the ones I don’t like, if that makes sense), I don’t like the reaction.
Other than that, life is about birth, growth, stagnation, weakening and dying..
I like all story types. The “day to day” or the events that change the world. What I don’t like is the approach to the story that has them running for only as long as it is convenient. Think of the TV show analogy. Would it not raise an eyebrow or two to see long running tales stop without a coherent ending?
Well seeing as my personal belief is that developed (or high-level) NPCs do not impact on the freedom of the player’s PC to act in a given situation I am already coming at this point from the wrong direction, so to speak… attempting to understand the reasoning behind why people I don’t agree with, do things I don’t like… surreal.
-Understood.
My point, albeit badly phrased it seems, is that the characters developed by the novels are not only high level but are highly visible. In saying that, I mean that the PC may well care far more about the “overshadowing” caused by a character who is not only high level but also who has a history of scampering around sticking their nose (not always long and beaky) into many a pie, i.e. one with a developed set of behaviours and motivations… than Mr Herbert Stribble of 47 Elm Close who may well be the world’s greatest Collector Of The Tomes Of Doom but has never shown any inclination towards appearing at your local Bibliophiles Anonymous and taking on the forces of The Mad Librarians of Phut.
I was hoping that people would be a little less quick to sign the death warrants of characters if they didn’t feel that they were stealing their limelight. A suggestion that has less to do with raw level and a lot more to do with how they apply that level.
-If anything the random Waterdhavian Level 2 guard would be more visible than, say, any number of the NPCs who are cited as "superheroes" in the setting, in the campaign. Just like in politics, the closer to the grassroots level you get, the more impact on your personal life and behaviors is the policy going to have on you. Characters might encounter one of the aforementioned "superheroes of the setting" once? Twice? Every so often, if the DM is really overboard? How likely are the same character to meet the local guard? In theory, every single day! While I don't know the local meter maid by name, or anything like that, I see him almost every single day. At the same time, I know who the police chief is, but I've never actually met him before.
While I don't know the local meter maid by name, or anything like that, I see him almost every single day. At the same time, I know who the police chief is, but I've never actually met him before.
Really? You know the meter maid because you have seen them every day... yet you have never met the police chief even once and he has an effect.
The perception of effect is larger, and aren't we dealing with perception here? If the Meter Maid has it out for you then your car gets towed... if the chief of police has it out for you then your entire life goes pear shaped very quickly.
Really? You know the meter maid because you have seen them every day... yet you have never met the police chief even once and he has an effect.
The perception of effect is larger, and aren't we dealing with perception here? If the Meter Maid has it out for you then your car gets towed... if the chief of police has it out for you then your entire life goes pear shaped very quickly.
-As I said, the more "grassroots" you go, there's less of a theoretical influence the individual/organization has on you (A Supreme Court ruling stating all American Citizens are allowed to carry firearms on their person), and more of a direct influence the individual/organization has on you (A state statute dictating when, where and how you can carry said firearm on your person).
-Remember, as we all know, here, perception =/= reality. This is the crux of so many problems we, as a general community, have had with the developers changes of the Forgotten Realms. That aside, the likelihood that I attract the attention of the Police Chief, that "Elminster" is very slim, me being a nobody, and the Police Chief, the "Elminster", being an important individual. The likelihood of me garnering the attention of the Meter Maid, is much higher, me being a nobody, and him being a nobody. The reality of the situation is that I am going to run into the Meter Maid, and interact with the Meter Maid a whole lot more than I am the Police Chief.
For the following reasons:
a) I can no longer argue an opposing viewpoint with you Lord Karsus when I agree with you. Perception isn't Reality. Perception should not colour the setting. The chances of PCs actually interacting with NPCs should be the basis of decisions not the possibility of such. I swear, playing the devil's advocate is tiring. Especially with you! All novels should be canon! They should just keep telling the tales begun by them... I swear, if there aren't more novels featuring the likes of the Steel Regent, Caladnei, the Seven, El and various other bods that I have come to know and love I shall... well... I shall... be mightily peeved and probably mutter rude words into my Earl Grey.
b) Thanks to the amusement borne from arguing with both you and with myself, as outlined in (a), I am now laughing too hard to even drink my blasted tea.
Thankyou, you may indeed be intimidating as merry heck but at least you throw a good argument together.
a) I can no longer argue an opposing viewpoint with you Lord Karsus when I agree with you. Perception isn't Reality. Perception should not colour the setting. The chances of PCs actually interacting with NPCs should be the basis of decisions not the possibility of such. I swear, playing the devil's advocate is tiring. Especially with you! All novels should be canon! They should just keep telling the tales begun by them... I swear, if there aren't more novels featuring the likes of the Steel Regent, Caladnei, the Seven, El and various other bods that I have come to know and love I shall... well... I shall... be mightily peeved and probably mutter rude words into my Earl Grey.
-It's hard, I know.
Thankyou, you may indeed be intimidating as merry heck but at least you throw a good argument together.
-I'm not all hype. ;)
As to the rest... well, never underestimate the power of the pear-shaped mouth-breather to ruin something beautiful because they just 'don't get it'... Which applies to most things in this world, D&D or not.
A tad cynical, but that's the mood I'm in at the moment.
Just mostly hype... :P ;)
As to the rest... well, never underestimate the power of the pear-shaped mouth-breather to ruin something beautiful because they just 'don't get it'... Which applies to most things in this world, D&D or not.
A tad cynical, but that's the mood I'm in at the moment.
-I'm not catching the reference.
But, regardless if this random Level 2 Fighter NPC is developed or not, he still fits the bill of overshadowing the player's characters, the crux of the point I was targeting specifically.
Generic Level 2 Fighters are exactly not the sort of NPCs people talk about when they discuss "NPC overshadowing".
Let's keep it real, OK?
Generic Level 2 Fighters are exactly not the sort of NPCs people talk about when they discuss "NPC overshadowing".
Let's keep it real, OK?
-Doesn't matter. They overshadow a starting Level 1 character in what they can and can not do.
Ed has said himself that he wants his players to realize that there are more powerful people out there, and while they are the center of the story, the characters are not always the best there is.
-I never had a problem accepting this (Hell, in my discussion with Iluvrien, I called myself a nobody in the world, which I am). The people I DM for don't have a problem accepting this. Some people do, though. For whatever reason, I don't know.
Hmmmmm, different folks liking different things in a campaign setting? Blasphemy!
There's a difference between saying "I prefer X" and "Because the Forgotten Realms aren't going to be X its going to suck. Trust me." You'll note that the person I replied to was the latter rather then the former. One is an opinion, the other is couched as a universal fact that no-one could get enjoyment from the 4e Forgotten Realms.
While I don't know the local meter maid by name, or anything like that, I see him almost every single day.
The difference between the Level 2 Fighter and Geran Hulmaster is that the Level 2 Fighter has a defined job in the world and doesn't go around adventuring. Geran not-so-much. While he had a job, he has shown he'll drop that job to protect Hulburg from any threat, no matter how daunting. So now if I want to have my characters visit Hulburg, I'm going to have to either create a greater threat then the players face to occupy Geran, overshadowing the players' problems, kill him off (negating any future novels he appears in) or I'm going to have to say Geran doesn't exist. Now while I can simply have them go to any number of towns other then Hulburg, already 1 novel has ruled out 1 town from me being able to visit in my campaign. When we get a character like Drizzt whose been in over a dozen books and travels around a fair bit, eventually I'm going to have to say "why isn't Drizzt dealing with this problem? Where is he? What's he doing?"
Having said that, I'm not against letting the novels be canon, although I'd love to hear some advice on what to do in the above circumstances. If Geran isn't going to be in any more novels (I'm not sure if he's in the other Blades of the Moonsea novels or not) I can easily have him retire.
Novel Characters are cool, because they are SO Uber...
People read the FR novels because they love hearing about the Uber-NPCs latest exploits...
They want to play in the Realms so they can be just like their heroes (or Villains)...
Then they whine and cry because their first level character isn't as cool as Drizzt, so they decide the setting sucks...
WotC comes along, and the SAME GUYS who created the Uber-NPCs in the novels nuke the whole setting and reset everything so the people who loved the novels in the first place can now play in the Realms and be even cooler then their heroes...
Enter 4e, and the "1HP' Orc Hordes...
Now those spoiled little children can whomp lots of big, mean, nasty Orcs with their crappy 1st level character, and feels like gods, just like they wanted.
After all, who's got time to sit around and play a PC up 'till lev 20... now you can have all that murderous intent right up-front in the game.
Yay.
-I never understood why people have such a hard time grasping this.
-Alediran, of The Realms Vault, was thinking about putting together a comprehensive "guide" to this "problem".
This argument is going to be eternal I see. Those high level characters are only going to interfere if the DM lets them. If the characters in your game insist that npc X would take care of the problem, and why are they needed, just say, "OK, you're right," close your notebook, put up the dice and wait. When they ask when they get to play, just tell them that npc X came fixed the problem and they can just go home. After a few times of this they will either shut up, or at least you don't have to DM for them anymore.
-QFT.
-I never understood why people have such a hard time grasping this.
50% of the population has an IQ below 100. Some of those play D&D. That's why.
50% of the population has an IQ below 100. Some of those play D&D. That's why.
Those ones aren't usually a problem, they are happy just killing things. It's the ones who read too much and over think the game that cause the problems. Having a high IQ doesn't make you smart.
50% of the population has an IQ below 100. Some of those play D&D. That's why.
-It's not nice to blame everything on those not as smart as everyone else.
Those ones aren't usually a problem, they are happy just killing things. It's the ones who read too much and over think the game that cause the problems. Having a high IQ doesn't make you smart.
Having a high IQ does in fact mean that you're smart. But possibly not "wise". ;)
Having a high IQ does in fact mean that you're smart. But possibly not "wise". ;)
I have an IQ of 140, yes I am bragging a bit, and some days I am the dumbest guy I know, so...
I have an IQ of 140, yes I am bragging a bit, and some days I am the dumbest guy I know, so...
Here's the thing: people in the highest quartile of IQ tend to generally underestimate their abilities. People in the lowest quartile of IQ tend to vastly overestimate their abilities.
Or any part of an IQ discussion... :P
But I will say I have about as much 'horse sense' as a dead cow.
Anyhow, I blame the whole thing on really atrocious DMing - I think people read the novels, and wanted some of the cool stuff in the novels to happen to their PCs, but didn't realize that the NPCs were going to outshine (and out-perform) their crummy characters. Instead of being a game about the PCs, it became a game about the DM telling the story HE wanted to tell.
I briefly gamed in a group like that... it was AWFUL.
Or, the DM allowed the PCs to 'hunt down' the NPCs for their own juvenile gratification, which is just as bad as the DM introducing them in the first place.
If they would just require everyone to take a course in good DMing, this problem would have never arose. Tell your own stories - don't try to copy novels.
-It's not nice to blame everything on those not as smart as everyone else.
It's often difficult to be nice and speak the truth at the same time. ;)
Be that as it may, there's a reason that D&D separated "mentally related" abilities into separate scores for INT, WIS, and CHA.
Just like in D&D it's -very- possible to have lots of success with a high score in one of those attribute and average or low scores in the others. Low in all three... hello grunt work! ;)
But I will say I have about as much 'horse sense' as a dead cow.
That's ok... you're pretty, so all is well.
-Here we go again, with the IQs...
No no, I'll stop. Girl learned her lesson.
-Here we go again, with the IQs...
See I told you, dumbest guy I know :D
-Back to the topic at hand...
-Very good.
-Back to the topic at hand...
Oh, I thought we had switched it to how to kill a thread about how to kill a setting...
Oh, I thought we had switched it to how to kill a thread about how to kill a setting...
-Close, but no cigar.
-Very good.
-Back to the topic at hand...
*ahem*
There's an interesting topic over at the Paizo boards where one of their designers (James Jacobs) talks about the Dark Sun setting. Interestingly, he talks about the mistakes they made there, and about how he learned that one should only make changes to a setting to please the fans... not just add in or change things that designers themselves are jonesin' for.
Interestingly, he talks about the mistakes they made there, and about how he learned that one should only make changes to a setting to please the fans...
-I always kinda thought that was kind of self-explanatory obvious. What do I know, though?
Wow... you must be looking at my 14 year old MySpace pic.
I used to turn heads... now I just turn stomachs.
Anyhow, the topic at hand (which I can easily turn into a juvenile innuendo if I so desired... oops - did it anyway)
It does appear that the current team of designers are incorporating all the stuff that they personally always wanted in the Realms, regardles of whatever anyone else thinks.
You want Aberrations - go write for Chaosism's Cthulhu game!
You want Draconians? Why don't you beg Margeret Weiss real nice to play in HER sandbox!
Seriously - I find all this designer-homebrew crap both self-serving and out of place. These are not professionals - they are children left in control of the candy store.
Professional Game designners listen to their FANS, not their own base desires - the guys at WotC could take a HUGE lesson from the people over at Paizo. They don't force-feed their fan-base whatever secret fantasy they personally have a hardon for - they give the fans what THEY want.
Chris perkins, this goes out TO YOU - I will NEVER, EVER buy ANY product with your name on it or it it ever again, even if its the last Roleplay game on Earth!!!
And the sad part is, I know you could care less, because you got your way, and the Realms are destroyed.
How to kill a setting...
Leave it in 3.5 mode.
We did play in several novel based modules, but they were kind of lame. The way I see it if you include the novels in your game then you are relequishing control of a part of the game to the authors and the readers of them in your game.
My FR campaign lived because my players were more than likely the movers and shakers in their area of it.
Bel
-Doesn't matter.
Actually, it does matter.
For the last ten to fifteen years it's been certain Chosen of Mystra -and not midling NPCs of low level- that players and DMs have complained about all the time.
::::::::::
While we're at it: The “it’s only a problem if the DM lets it be” is weak argument.
A Realms DM can’t help it if players read the novels on their own. There’s plenty of Elminster/Chosen-centered books out there to read that put these NPCs squarely in the spotlight as Epic, Realms-saving personages that FR can't possibly survive without.
Players are informed about the setting through those products and naturally bring expectations and formulations about how the setting "is" to the gaming table based on what they read.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem is that the Realms DM is put in a position of having to overcome his player's belief that what they do in the Realms doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Not everybody has the benefit of these forums or a place like Candlekeep.com from which to learn that the Chosen, etc...are important, but not critical, to the Realms.
So it depends a great deal on what kind of players you have at the table and how much stock these players put in the novels and their personal knowledge about the Realms.
:::::::::::::::
And for the record, a level 2 Fighter guard (in 3E) is pretty notable. Players are far more likely to run into a level 2 Warrior than a level 2 Fighter, unless that Fighter is part of an adventure.
Then the Fighter isn’t perceived as “better”, instead he’s perceived as experience points waiting to happen. ;)
*ahem*
There's an interesting topic over at the Paizo boards where one of their designers (James Jacobs) talks about the Dark Sun setting. Interestingly, he talks about the mistakes they made there, and about how he learned that one should only make changes to a setting to please the fans... not just add in or change things that designers themselves are jonesin' for.
-See my sig in the "Quotes" section, 3rd one down. :D
As for the new 4th Edition incarnation of the Forgotten Realms... I'm a pretty huge FR fan, and it's frustrating to me to see what I think are the same tactical errors we made with Dark Sun being repeated with the Forgotten Realms. Time will tell, of course, if those choices were right or wrong, but my gut tells me that fans of the Forgotten Realms are fans BECAUSE of the various elements that make it different from the rest of D&D. Rebuilding the Forgotten Realms to appease those who aren't fans seems backwards and self-destructive. But then again... Eilistraee is (I won't say was!) my favorite FR deity, so what do I know? -James Jacob at Paizo
-Quote is from this thread. Look on the first page around the middle towards the bottom. Very Educational. I have alot of respect for James Jacobs.
18DELTA
As to PC overshadowing... so what is my general take. There's always someone better, deal with it, be mature about it, and move on. The idea is to tell a story about adventurers... if they're complaining about some NPC who should be fixing some problem for them, just ask them if they're adventurers or weenies, and move on with the story with or without them. Thankfully, I don't have to deal with players like that...
Rebuilding the Forgotten Realms to appease those who aren't fans seems backwards and self-destructive.
Continuing to release new editions to the same ever shrinking base of fans is self destructive. Comics fell into this trap and almost died out.
Continuing to release new editions to the same ever shrinking base of fans is self destructive. Comics fell into this trap and almost died out.
-Who's releasing the same thing over and over?
My FR campaign lived because my players were more than likely the movers and shakers in their area of it.
Bel
As Markus said, that's exactly how it should be.
-See my sig in the "Quotes" section, 3rd one down. :D
-Quote is from this thread. Look on the first page around the middle towards the bottom. Very Educational. I have alot of respect for James Jacobs.
18DELTA
Interesting quote, thanks for sharing it.
The idea is to tell a story about adventurers... if they're complaining about some NPC who should be fixing some problem for them, just ask them if they're adventurers or weenies, and move on with the story with or without them.
That's more or less the attitude I would advocate.
Players can become like the Chosen of Mystra (and other powerful characters) if they work up to it. I'm playing a very low level character right now, and I'm not bothered at all by the fact that she's a tiny fish in a huge pond. She'll keep leveling up, and there are advantages to "going unnoticed". My opinion on that isn't everyone's opinion, but there it is.
Continuing to release new editions to the same ever shrinking base of fans is self destructive. Comics fell into this trap and almost died out.
Well, according to everything I've heard from WotC, they ARE hoping old fans will get onboard with the new setting. They absolutely want new fans, but they still would rather not lose the old ones.
While we're at it: The “it’s only a problem if the DM lets it be” is weak argument.
A Realms DM can’t help it if players read the novels on their own. There’s plenty of Elminster/Chosen-centered books out there to read that put these NPCs squarely in the spotlight as Epic, Realms-saving personages that FR can't possibly survive without.
Players are informed about the setting through those products and naturally bring expectations and formulations about how the setting "is" to the gaming table based on what they read.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
The problem is that the Realms DM is put in a position of having to overcome his player's belief that what they do in the Realms doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Not everybody has the benefit of these forums or a place like Candlekeep.com from which to learn that the Chosen, etc...are important, but not critical, to the Realms.
So it depends a great deal on what kind of players you have at the table and how much stock these players put in the novels and their personal knowledge about the Realms.
You have a very good point about the players reading the novels, but that is exactly where it should end. A DM is exactly that, Dungeon Master. He is in control at every moment in time and should be. IF he/she is not, then I would recommend that said individual should read the DMG. Entire chapters are dedicated to problematic players, getting PCs on board, and everything else. If the 3.5 DMG doesn't fit the problem you have, I'm sure the 3.0, the AD&D, or even a WoD or other game book will have a solution.
Also -- the one time it came up in one of my games "Well where's Khelben!?!" I responded to said player with a page number in the FRCS 3.0. The section was titled "Concerns of the mighty." I never had to explain anything to him, as soon as he read it, he knew and stopped complaining.
About canon vs. non canon - I tend to use a mix. Every time a player says that he has read a novel or a new supplement I then take the time to read it and decide if I'm going to incorporate it into my "ever changing world." Then the next time we gather, I say to my players "This is whats going on - We're going to use this this and this, but not this this and this. So this happens and this does not, leaving us with a world that looks like this - " Case and point - I love the Twilight War series, but without an ending I do not use the new Sembia. On the other side, I liked the new Thay book, so in my game Thay is currently in a state of Civil War though it appears Lich Boy won it.
So basicly, what I'm trying to say, is if you are prepared for "troublesome PCs" or just "educated PCs" (Now all of those pointers on being a good tyrant come in handy - No education, no travelling, and strong and swift justice...) than dealing with questions of powerful NPCs should be easy. Do or do not use them, it is completely up to the Dungeon Master.
You have a very good point about the players reading the novels, but that is exactly where it should end. A DM is exactly that, Dungeon Master. He is in control at every moment in time and should be. IF he/she is not, then I would recommend that said individual should read the DMG. Entire chapters are dedicated to problematic players, getting PCs on board, and everything else.
Indeed. There's nothing wrong with the DM gently but firmly putting their foot down and telling the players that the setting they are about to play in is not necessarily the canon version. The polite thing for players to do is respect that.
The problem is that the Realms DM is put in a position of having to overcome his player's belief that what they do in the Realms doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Not everybody has the benefit of these forums or a place like Candlekeep.com from which to learn that the Chosen, etc...are important, but not critical, to the Realms.
So it depends a great deal on what kind of players you have at the table and how much stock these players put in the novels and their personal knowledge about the Realms.
I am fortunate in that nearly all of my player's first experience of the Realms came through me, so I was able to 'hand-tailor' their perception of it.
I've never had to deal with the problem of preconceived notions, although I have experienced them well enough at the LGS and online.
I believe it was on this forum (or at least, the old ones that used to be here) that someone described the game he was running for his players - they were 'assisting' Drizzt in something.
It took all of my willpower not to call that guy an idiot.
Basically, he set the whole adventure up with the PCs playing 'second fiddle' to Drizzt. Unfortunetly down through the years I have heard quite few of these stories, with the DM creating the 'novel' that he would like to see happen, and using his players as actors in his little drama. I even remember one very amusing story in Dragon magazine (
) wherein one kid wrote in to inform the editors that his party (of 1st level characters!) had killed Elminster, and they (TSR) needed to let everyone know he was now dead in the game. You could tell it was a kid, because the editors were 'kind' enough to reprint the letter in its entirety, leaving in all the mispellings and bad grammer. It was meant (by the editors) to be amusing, but I thought it was just plain sad... especially since the kid probably read their response.__________________________________________________________
Anyhow, I think I finally figure out the problem with FR (yes, I will admit there was one, although only if people make it so) - I was thinking about this just yesterday while re-reading entries from the 'Old Grey Box', when I suddenly had an epiphany. It had to do with one single line, and I had one of those 'moments of clarity'. It was in the Cyclopedia book, under Fighters -
"Elminster's Notes: The services of trained fighters, warriors, rangers, and barbarians, are in constant demand in the Forgotten Realms, owing to the large number of hostile creatures (including men) to be found in the world."
Accent, mine. A simple enough sentence by Mr. Greenwood, but the fact that he felt he needed to point it out like that speaks volumes.
The biggest threat to people in the Realms are other people!
Sure, that situation exists in other settings as well, but not like in the Realms. I know, because I ran Greyhawk for years, and except for being chased by some angry Grugach Elves once, I can't recall ever running an encounter against other people! In other settings, you are expected to fight monsters first and foremost, but in the Realms, more then half the time it's other people who are the monsters.
The only other Fantasy setting I can think of that had this situation was Dark Sun, and in that setting most of the races were twisted in ways to not be as recognizable as they are in typical fantasy milieus (Spindly-legged desert Elves, or Feral Cannibalistic Halflings). Even though there was a on-going person-on-person situation (Gladitorial Combat), the entire setting was so surreal and primitive that everything felt 'alien' enough that you felt you were fighting 'monsters'. Add in that there was little or no magic, NO gods, and psionics ruled the day made the whole thing strange enough that it never established that feel of 'realism' that the Realms engenders.
_________________________________________________________
Anyhow, I do tend to carry on. :embarrass
My point is that the very thing we've grown to love about the Realms is how it feels 'alive', and although many of us have known that for years, we have often pointed to numerous factors like 'it's history' (somewhat) or 'its people' (closer still); but I think its a little deeper then that - I think its psychological. The kind of monsters you are most likely to fight are the same exact kind of monsters we have here in the real world - murderers, rapists & molesters, thieves & cuthroats, slavers & kidnappers, and despotic rulers and evil military men, just to name a few. In the real-world, we have gangs; in the Realms, we have bandit gangs - even though its a fantasy-setting, the 'evils' are the same.
In FR, we get to fight the kinds of things we are afraid of and CAN'T fight in the real world, and thats something most other settings simply don't offer. Sure, killing a dragon is a hoot, but how real does it feel? Rescuing a bunch of children from Calishite or Mulan slavers? Now thats something we can feel proud about.
So, getting back to quoting Misc - the Realms are about people, and that is what drives many DMs who don't know better to use the characters from novels. We love their stories, and we want to be like them, but what those DMs don't realize is that they need to let their players create their own legends.
Interesting quote, thanks for sharing it.
-Your Welcome Rino.
Now that I spend alot more time in other forums I get to see what other people think about whats going on.18DELTA ;)
Then again, the same thing hapopened to Games Workshop, and they finally shutdown their forums because of it.
Strangely, its a lot more 'pity' then anger at WotC. They've 'moved on' with sadness, rather then anger, in most cases.
In most cases, Anger denotes possible action. I would describe the current mood of things to be slightly nostalgic, maybe even melancholic (And no, we do not need infinite sadness or Billy Korgan). The people who seem to be most outspoken to 4e realize there is little they can do so they band together, support each other, meet on Thursdays for coffee, doughnuts, and poetry hour. . . I mean... well you get it.
But unfortunately for me and many others, the Paizo boards are not so pro-FR (although not really against it either), they are pro-Golarion, Paizo's own setting (which DOESN'T use Pathfinder, BTW, 3P isn't finished yet so they are still in 3.5 mode).
So, if we want any sort of 'FR love', we are stuck coming here, or going over to CK... which is great for direct answers to things, but not very big on 'discussion', like here.
I like to talk to people about homebrew FR lore, their campaigs, my own stuff, and FR's history and NPCs - I really can't get that anywhere else.
At this point, actually at a point several months ago, negativity serves noone and accomplishes nothing. Things have been set in motion and they will succeed or fail at their own merit, yet it is most improbable that they are rescinded.
In brutal honesty I think that it is in the best interest of the people who do not like or plan to follow 4E FR (and often 4E at all) yet plan to continue playing D&D in an older incarnation of FR to focus their attention at a site like the Vault and help it expand so that they can forge a community there. A place where they can provide not only lore but also campaigning, dming and rules information to other people who play FR in the same or similar timeline and ruleset. Because, quite frankly, this place will soon not be so appropriate for it.
At this point, actually at a point several months ago, negativity serves noone and accomplishes nothing. Things have been set in motion and they will succeed or fail at their own merit, yet it is most improbable that they are rescinded.
You seem to be implying that people who don't care for the changes to the Realms are all "negative" influences here.
I am not implying anything. Many people here are useful and contributing members of the forum yet they will constantly comment on the changes in a negative way, some times directly, at this point in time mostly indirectly and by passing comments. And that accomplishes nothing as I said. Moreover I firmly believe that if you plan to stick with 3E FR and rules you should find or found a site (not needed since there is one already) and focus your efforts in establishing a community there so that you have a direct means to help keep what you like alive. I know that if I had the option, I would have done the same when the travesty that was ToT hit FR but back then the concept of an internet community was hardly viable. In essence if you want to keep playing in 3E FR you are doing a disservice spending the time you allot for FR here when you could be reestablishing the present and dedicated community elsewhere.
The WotC forums have enough contributors who have played in different editions of the game that we should be able to support discussion of all editions of the game, both past and present. How often is a piece of 2nd edition lore referenced to adress a question about 3rd edition? I do not see why some topic cant be about 3rd edition and others about 4th edition, if the poster of the topic is clear about which edition he or she wants to discuss.
We do. :D
But unfortunately for me and many others, the Paizo boards are not so pro-FR (although not really against it either), they are pro-Golarion, Paizo's own setting (which DOESN'T use Pathfinder, BTW, 3P isn't finished yet so they are still in 3.5 mode).
So, if we want any sort of 'FR love', we are stuck coming here, or going over to CK... which is great for direct answers to things, but not very big on 'discussion', like here.
I like to talk to people about homebrew FR lore, their campaigs, my own stuff, and FR's history and NPCs - I really can't get that anywhere else.
QFT, Need a Hug buddy?
:embarrass ;) :P :D 18DELTA :P
-Man hug right?
18DELTA :P
Is only gay if you make eye contact
Is only gay if you make eye contact
-
18DELTA :P
Is only gay if you make eye contact
Or engage in a tongue kiss. Or feel up their butt. ;)
Or engage in a tongue kiss. Or feel up their butt. ;)
-:embarrass
:inlove: :P
18DELTA
Hey! I'm THe Hand Of Karsus that know Hot Girls... I'm the Rico Suave of the Hands. Why Oh Why would I kiss or Feel "Over the Hill" poster guy"s butt?
I dunno... you'd have to tell us on that one. ;) :P ;)
-:embarrass
:P
18DELTA
What's with the Turkey?.. or better yet Why I'm trying to figure YOU out?
I dunno... you'd have to tell us on that one. ;) :P ;)
That's what I get for being a Friend
That's what I get for being a Friend
Oh now now... I'm just teasing a little. It wouldn't be funny if you weren't straight. :D
Oh now now... I'm just teasing a little. It wouldn't be funny if you weren't straight. :D
It's OK I guess... Make up Hug? :angelhide
So basicly, what I'm trying to say, is if you are prepared for "troublesome PCs" or just "educated PCs" (Now all of those pointers on being a good tyrant come in handy - No education, no travelling, and strong and swift justice...) than dealing with questions of powerful NPCs should be easy. Do or do not use them, it is completely up to the Dungeon Master.
Well put. Well put indeed.
For myself, I will continue to try to illustrate the problems DMs can have with the Realms as I've experienced them and had them described to me by others.
But I'll say your approach sounds just about perfect.
It's OK I guess... Make up Hug? :angelhide
=Hug!=
Well put. Well put indeed.
For myself, I will continue to try to illustrate the problems DMs can have with the Realms as I've experienced them and had them described to me by others.
But I'll say your approach sounds just about perfect.
As you should. that's the good thing about being onthis boards with an open mind your mind's "Field of Vision" only goes so far but reading the opinion of people with total different expiriences you expand you "Field of Vision"
=Hug!=
;)-These Forgotten Realms boards, this section, is edition neutral. As in, you want to discuss, you discuss. Obviously, everyone has their own opinions on things, and are allowed to express them, so long as they are not out of bounds, but 12, 2e, 3e, 4e, you want to know something, you post it here, not elsewhere.
-This section is growing exponentially larger and larger- it is, by far, most active Forgotten Realms message board on the internet. Let's keep it that way.
On the contrary, I mostly prefer novels over games(sheets) coz during games what happens isn't actually canon.. :P , In other words, novels are more canon.
Can anybody summarize to me the conflicts happening here related to the novels and the games(sheets)?
-Basically, the long and the short of it, is that since many people read about people like Elminster and Drizzt, and so on and so on, they think that either everyone in the Forgotten Realms is like that, or that these characters do everything for everyone. Neither is true. Players then, sometimes, think that they need to get these characters to solve their problems for them. Sometimes, if they are evil, they come to want to kill these characters. A whole bunch of things.
Well put. Well put indeed.
For myself, I will continue to try to illustrate the problems DMs can have with the Realms as I've experienced them and had them described to me by others.
But I'll say your approach sounds just about perfect.
Thank you, but I do understand what you are trying to say. For a starting DM, the task is daunting. I know from personal experience where both myself, when I started DMing for experienced players, or when someone else started DMing in a group full of other people who had DMed there were alot of problems at first.
Its good to have intelligent discussions on these boards once again.
I am not implying anything. Many people here are useful and contributing members of the forum yet they will constantly comment on the changes in a negative way, some times directly, at this point in time mostly indirectly and by passing comments. And that accomplishes nothing as I said.
You might think that way, but posters may say what they wish here so long as it does not violate the CoC, as LK keeps trying to get people to understand.
The secondary goal of the forums is as a means of feedback for WotC. While that does include a fair bit of negativity (whether it's in the form of honest, well thought out criticism or basic personal opinion/views on what Wotc is doing) that doesn't mean the forums exist for people to push a negative, anti-Forgotten Realms agenda on others.
I believe that is what Nymrohd is talking about.
That behavior is not useful to the community. Hiding behind the CoC does not excuse the active effort of a few people to put as much of a negative slant on the current state of the Realms as they can get away with.
If those people can't accept things as they are and don't care how they affect others' enjoyment of the FR forums, then those people need to leave because they are inhibiting the growth of these forums and the Forum’s usefulness to the greater online FR community.
I disagree somewhat with Nymrohd in that I believe there is plenty of room on these forums (especially after the FR Forum Split takes place) to discuss all things FR, regardless of edition.
I also think there’s room for people to further develop their online personas so that as the community grows we can all establish our areas of expertise and refer new people around these forums so they get the information they need.
The trick is to not let one’s distaste for a given aspect or edition of the setting bleed too heavily into one’s posts. We (by “we” I mean the regular forum members that post most often) should be focusing on helping people and assisting them in enjoying the setting as much as possible.
We should not be pushing people away from the Forgotten Realms.
Unlike these forums, Candlekeep has developed a relationship with numerous Forgotten Realms game designers and novel authors.
I think there's more room on the internet for similar sites.
Regardless, this is the new home for the 4E Forgotten Realms.
These forums are still home to the 3E Realms and all that has come before.
Whether things remain that way depends squarly on whether people choose to let it continue to be so.
Therefore, it does not serve anyone on the forums to come into a thread with a blatantly obvious topic and start preaching against the majority of posters in that thread. By saying that "people should go elsewhere" if they don't like product A or B, you are in fact encouraging inflammatory personal responses.
Please allow the chosen moderators to do their jobs as WotC intends, remember that you are not a moderator yourself, and don't try to incite -personal- negativity by attacking other posters. Thanks.
I believe you have misinterpreted my statements.
I encouraged anyone who comes to the Forgotten Realms forums with the sole purpose of pushing “...a negative, anti-Forgotten Realms agenda on others” to leave the forums, because that does not promote the Forgotten Realms community or help it to grow.
That, I think, is how you “Kill a Setting”, as the OP put it.
I acknowledged that the Forums exist for the (secondary) purpose of receiving feedback, so I’m not sure why you’d imply I haven’t considered that fact.
As to the remainder of your statements: I’m sorry, but they’re purely ad-hominem and impossible to respond to in a constructive way.
However, I do note your encouragement to not attack other posters. You’re right in that such can create negativity on the forums. I’ll try to remember that.
I’m interested in seeing the FR Forums -and by extension, the Forgotten Realms fan base- grow as much as possible. I don’t believe negativity for the sake of negativity promotes that process.
And that’s the root of my argument.
Regardless, If you continue to have problems interpreting what I’ve posted or want to respond to me directly, please use the PM system. Or report it.
Thank you.
WizO_Unicorn
Regardless, If you continue to have problems interpreting what I’ve posted or want to respond to me directly, please use the PM system. Or report it.
I understand you and your agenda very well. And I think it is the pinnacle of rude behavior for you to suggest that -anyone- leave the forum based on your personal disagreement with their views. End of story. By all means, please feel free to PM me if you wish to continue this "discussion".
-M.