The title basically says it all. What are some tips and advice everyone can offer here on doing this? How would a DM run a FR campaign for a group of players, starting at level 1, up into the epic levels, while staying as completely true as humanly possible to the current WoTC canon?
in a word OUCH!
Because if everything will turn out the way its supposed to, irregardless of what the players do.. they will become glorified plunderers sans compare. No more carying one bit about a village under orc slaughter.. its not like them going there or not will matter.. no, they will be busy looting and enriching themselves.
If still somehow intrested, consider making as many as possible into paladins and exalted harpers etc doogooders who cannot avoid doing good. Perhaps forced to make regular reports to khelben/whoever.. who will if needed strip them of wealth, status, pride, levels, special feats and life if they do anything but try their best.
A herald from the future, hellbent on turning everything right could work too .. althought that may turn quirky :P
Closest you could come is probably only running published FR adventures/modules which have been adopted into the lore.
Things like Curse of the Azure Bonds, the Myth Drannor adventures, etc.
That prospect kind of makes no sense.
Closest you could come is probably only running published FR adventures/modules which have been adopted into the lore.
Things like Curse of the Azure Bonds, the Myth Drannor adventures, etc.
If it is, for all practical purposes, impossible to run such a campaign, then why is any concern with "canon" brought into these discussions at all? Are they simply a rhetorical conceit? Some kind of appeal to Plato's ideal forms, or what?
) what he's trying to ask is:How do you run a campaign, with everything that happened before the PCs begun aligning with the canon established in all of the FR books?
--
If that's the question he means to ask, one answer is obvious. Buy everything and read it all. However given that this is not only expensive but extremely difficult, is there any recommendations people here have?
Some of the better modules that I can remember...
The trilogy dealing with Randall Norm was a great set of adventures for low level characters.
The Avatar Trilogy (Shadowdale, Tantras and Waterdeep) is another fun one since it gives the players a chance to actually experience the events.
Once the characters are high enough, break Throne of Bloodstone out on their arses and let Orcus go crazy-mad.
The nice thing about a lot of that 2nd Edition FR stuff is that it can be gotten for cheap on E-Bay (Except for H1-H4, which you would have to open your wallet up for if you want hard copies instead of the PDFs that you can buy on various sites).
Canon is far less important to a FR home campaign, especially if you want the PCs to make a mark on the Realms. The official setting should be seen as a starting point for a game, not an end in and of itself.
If it is, for all practical purposes, impossible to run such a campaign, then why is any concern with "canon" brought into these discussions at all?
Which discussions in particular?
About the only way I could think it would really work is to get a hold of TGHotR, take a look through it and pick a time period and region that can give you as much freedom as possible and to keep the 'major events' as things taking place in the background, which maybe the PCs hear about in an inn or tavern, or which are actually accomplished by your PCs, rather than the 'official protagonists'.
I tend to always compromise with something in between cannon and homebrew. What I mean by that, is that I always start with a 100% cannon setting. However, if my players do something that is latter contradicted by newly released material, then I ignore the new material, and go by what has occurred in game. This keeps things consistant, and allows the players to change and accomplish things.
As for sources, I would pick up the FRCS 4.0 for a current general overview, the GHotR for historical info, and unfortunatly you will now have to pay for the Online articles so that you can keep up to date with the latest developments. At least thats what I would do if I played 4.0 realms.
For now, I am going to take a good look at 4.0 rules, and if I like them, I will go to a completely home brew setting. I have already made a large financial investment in the old realms, I just can't motivate myself to invest again in the new one.
Which discussions in particular?
Discussions regarding running the realms which take place on this board.
Discussions regarding running the realms which take place on this board.
I was hoping you'd be just a bit more specific.
That means you’ve got at least 20 or so levels of play (which in real life takes a lot of time) before ‘keeping things in canon’ even starts to matter.
Ergo, you don’t worry about everything that’s going on in the Realms unless it manages to cross paths with what your PCs are doing and what you as DM are doing in your Realms campaign.
With that consideration firmly in mind, I encourage you to consistently and constantly include as much news from ‘places far away’ as you can so that your players can get a sense of what’s going on in the Realms on a consistent basis.
This is about the easiest way possible to plant adventure hooks that I know of and motivate your players to see the wider Realms.
Also, throw into your adventures as many gates/portals/means of moving rapidly across the Realms as you can, so your players can start to experience and even influence events throughout the setting.
You’ll also need to keep in mind that you still need to make the setting your own. Players are drawn to creative DMs and good adventure experiences. That’s the kind of work that the setting can help you with since there’s so much going on in it, but you still have to do the work yourself to flesh it all out and make it fun/memorable.
Lastly, heroic characters and their exploits are more important that Canon FR Lore.
Be careful not to let the setting outshine your players. Otherwise the Realms don’t work as written.
That's how I've been doing things for the last eight years, with much success.
If it is, for all practical purposes, impossible to run such a campaign, then why is any concern with "canon" brought into these discussions at all? Are they simply a rhetorical conceit? Some kind of appeal to Plato's ideal forms, or what?
The basic idea is to give everyone a place to start from while giving the illusion that Faerun is a real world we are just modeling in our games. Kind of like saying I run a historical game dealing with Napoleon's conquest of Europe while you focus on Ghenghis Khan's invasion. Meanwhile, someone else is running the Warring States period leading up to China's unification and another guy is focused on the Meiji Restoration.
We all know what the timeline is and how things interact due to the canon. Then we go in and mess things up big time. Most campaigns either focus on the fringes and thus avoid the novels and big goings on as detailed in the sourcebooks or they go off in a big what if and see what happens when the PCs become The Movers and Shakers of the Realms.
But to get into canon, and run a "canon game" you'ld really have to run a game set just enough in the future to be ahead of the current sourcebooks and novels. Then you'ld have to write it up and convince WoTC to publish it as a novel (or Trilogy, they love Trilogies).
It is impossible to run a campaign that is 100% canon. The second a little detail comes up that the DM doesn't know about he has to look it up. And if it isnt in any sourcebooks/novels he has, he needs to ask an author while sometimes takes a lot of time. Thats no way to run a campaign that can actually survive for more than five minutes. The second someone asks what the inn is serving, you are screwed.
This weekend I'm going to start a campaign in FR, whis is planned with scope from 1st level, to epic. Most of adventures will be mine in design, so I'm not restricted to being canon in matters of facts.
The question bothers me is: how to create mood and feeling of "true" Forgotten Realms? What are the elemnts, that make Forgotten Realms a Forgotten Realms? You know, in DarkSun it is harsh enviorement and dragon-kings opression, in Ravenloft gothic atmosphere, thickmists and Vistani gypsies. But what are ingredients and trademarks of "true and pure" Forgotten Realms campaign?
Any sugestions will be helpful.
I plan to create capaign around scheme of lich, who forsees the Spellplague and plans to remove Island from contunuity to preserve it's unlife and powers. To achieve it, employs various evil beings, crafts some schemes and intrigues. It's agent will dispersed in various parts of the Realms, pursuing different quests.
I was hoping you'd be just a bit more specific.
Could you clarify for me the information you are looking for?
Could you clarify for me the information you are looking for?
I forgot, sorry.
If it is, for all practical purposes, impossible to run such a campaign, then why is any concern with "canon" brought into these discussions at all? Are they simply a rhetorical conceit? Some kind of appeal to Plato's ideal forms, or what?
-What middleground do we have for discussions if nobody has anything the other can relate to? If someone asks what happened to Myth Drannor in Utkar 1374, and he/she gets fifteen different responses by fifteen different people who are running fifteen different games, that person is still in the same predicament he/she started out in. He/she still doesn't know what happened in Myth Drannor in Utkar of 1374 DR.
-Thus, canon.
-That said, me being paraphrased by BBall8 is correct. I like to personally use the example of describing the smell of Calashite Stink Cabbage, but close enough.
The question bothers me is: how to create mood and feeling of "true" Forgotten Realms? What are the elemnts, that make Forgotten Realms a Forgotten Realms? You know, in DarkSun it is harsh enviorement and dragon-kings opression, in Ravenloft gothic atmosphere, thickmists and Vistani gypsies. But what are ingredients and trademarks of "true and pure" Forgotten Realms campaign?
In my experience, what makes a "true and pure" FR game is one that involves 2 things:
- A healthy dose of material from sourcebooks; I second Stigger's point about using the Volo's Guides as a starting point.
- Second, the involvement of players and DM's in the game. Players need to create characters that are interesting and somewhat reflective of the setting itself.
Over time, the blending of these two elements with the DM's ideas for his or her campaign will form the basis for a solid Forgotten Realms game.
Realms DMs should also realize that the Realms are BIG. This means you as DM have plenty of themed locations from which to pick when setting up your adventures and campaign story arcs.
The trick isn't to try and include it all; don't worry about that. Instead, start at one location and learn how to move your players around the map (indeed, let them do the moving by their choices, where those choices are carefully placed before them by your prior planning of what they can discover in the adventures you write) via Gates/Portals or other magical means.
As the players move around the map, you can introduce new parts of the setting to them and leave the old ones behind. This is how good Realms games stay interesting and capitalize on what the Realms has to offer gamers.
Finally, as an experienced Realms Dungeon Master I know that the best way to learn how to run a good Realms Game is to get the opinions and advice of as many successful Realms DMs as possible.
Not every game is run the same, but by no means does that mean it’s unwise to learn all the different ways a good Realms game can happen.
Thus: learn them all. The more you learn, the better a Realms DM you will be.
Although seriously, I always thought that was rather amusing, considering the jokes I always heard about striking it (moderately) rich adventuring and opening a tavern with the proceeds. A few of them doing just that was bound to happen... some it just took a long time with and they got very proficient at the adventuring thing along the way. Seriously, think of the general sense one gets from 2e stuff that only rarely is adventuring an avenue to actual wealth, and that most just end up dead or working a job like everyone else. All that skill doesn't just go away if they do manage to survive long enough to re-enter the workforce. It actually makes a fair amount of sense when looked at in the proper perspective.
I remember Lord Karsus saying this. Very wise, that guy:
It is impossible to run a campaign that is 100% canon. The second a little detail comes up that the DM doesn't know about he has to look it up. And if it isnt in any sourcebooks/novels he has, he needs to ask an author while sometimes takes a lot of time. Thats no way to run a campaign that can actually survive for more than five minutes. The second someone asks what the inn is serving, you are screwed.
He isn't trying to run a campaign that is canon, he is trying to stay true to canon. That, in my opinion, means not introducing elements that contradict canon. Inventing a menu on a random inn doesn't contradict canon (most likely).
Some bits of the Volo books are great.<snip>
Interesting answer for someone that signs "CANON IS A CRUTCH" :P
He isn't trying to run a campaign that is canon, he is trying to stay true to canon. That, in my opinion, means not introducing elements that contradict canon. Inventing a menu on a random inn doesn't contradict canon (most likely).
-Yes it does, if such a menu exists. And, to confirm that such a menu does not exist, one needs to either do a lot of searching and nitpicking, or ask an author. Both are time consuming.
Some bits of the Volo books are great. The 20th level bartenders I can do without though. ;)
-20th Level Bartenders are just about as common as the Chosen of Mystra running around to solve everyone's problems, the Zhents being inept Keystone Kops, and a couple of the other overblown things that exist. Sure, they exist in some places, but they are hardly 'commonplace'.
-That said, though, one of my recently retired characters (Cleric/Morninglord/Contemplative Level 14 Total) did use his coin to build a church (of Lathander) and an orphanage, so there is a case of a 14th Level..."Orphanage Head". Just to show that it does indeed happen.
Uncertain narrator... not truly canon per se. Did you really need to go there, by the way? :P
No, but it was fun still :D
He isn't trying to run a campaign that is canon, he is trying to stay true to canon.
What's the difference?
-Yes it does, if such a menu exists.
Hence why I added the "most likely"
And, to confirm that such a menu does not exist, one needs to either do a lot of searching and nitpicking, or ask an author. Both are time consuming.
Oh yes, I agree
What's the difference?
Personally I don't think there is a difference, but some posters seem to think that running a campaign that is canon means that you cannot add stuff to the world that is not described in official material (eg. you cannot invent an inn menu on-the-fly). I think staying true to canon means that you don't add stuff that contradict official material (eg. if the menu of that specific inn is indeed mentioned in official material).
Hence why I added the "most likely"
Oh yes, I agree
-Right. You are agreeing with the statement, then.
Personally I don't think there is a difference, but some posters seem to think that running a campaign that is canon means that you cannot add stuff to the world that is not described in official material (eg. you cannot invent an inn menu on-the-fly). I think staying true to canon means that you don't add stuff that contradict official material (eg. if the menu of that specific inn is indeed mentioned in official material).
-Correct. But, as I mentioned, in order to "properly" do this, one must first check. By this point, the game has already been disrupted.
-Right. You are agreeing with the statement, then.
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to run a campaign that is true to canon, no.
Hard - yes. Impossible - no.
-Correct. But, as I mentioned, in order to "properly" do this, one must first check. By this point, the game has already been disrupted.
Well, I guess placing your campaign in 'new' regions or regions which aren't described in detail would lessen the work considerably.
I wouldn't say that it is impossible to run a campaign that is true to canon, no.
Hard - yes. Impossible - no.
-Close enough. ;)
-Impossible enough, due to impracticality.
Well, I guess placing your campaign in 'new' regions or regions which aren't described in detail would lessen the work considerably.
-For the time being. Invariably, however, information will agather. Is that even a word? Don't necessarily think so, but you get the gist of what I am alluding to.
-What middleground do we have for discussions if nobody has anything the other can relate to? If someone asks what happened to Myth Drannor in Utkar 1374, and he/she gets fifteen different responses by fifteen different people who are running fifteen different games, that person is still in the same predicament he/she started out in. He/she still doesn't know what happened in Myth Drannor in Utkar of 1374 DR.
-Thus, canon.
Perhaps choose one of the fifteen responses which will fit best into your campaign. Or the one that is most interesting. Or the one that seems well supported by the narrative you envision in the realms.
After all, nothing really happened in Myth Drannor at all. Its fiction. Canon for canon's sake has always puzzled me.
Perhaps choose one of the fifteen responses which will fit best into your campaign. Or the one that is most interesting. Or the one that seems well supported by the narrative you envision in the realms.
-The questioner isn't asking for advice for his/her campaign. He/she is asking for what objectivley happened in Myth Drannor. Which is why fifteen different responses don't help, if they don't follow what has been set by canon.
-At the end of the day, when I ask for what happened in the latest issue of Uncanny X-Men, giving me your opinions on what should have happened, or what didn't happen, or how you would change things doesn't answer my question of what happened in the latest issue of Uncanny X-Men.
After all, nothing really happened in Myth Drannor at all. Its fiction.
-Which doesn't have any impact on anything. Star Wars is fiction, and yet things objectivley happen and do not happen. Star Trek is fiction, and yet, things happen onjectivley and do not happen. Superman is fiction, Spongebob Squrepants is fiction, and so on and so forth.
-
-Which doesn't have any impact on anything. Star Wars is fiction, and yet things objectivley happen and do not happen. Star Trek is fiction, and yet, things happen onjectivley and do not happen. Superman is fiction, Spongebob Squrepants is fiction, and so on and so forth.
So may it be understood that fictive works have an internal, objective existance? For example, if, in R.A. Salvatore's novel "The adventures of Curious George and Drizzt" posit Drizzt and his simian companion in Baldur's Gate Christmas 1985, may it be now understood that they were, in fact, objectively there at that time?
So may it be understood that fictive works have an internal, objective existance? For example, if, in R.A. Salvatore's novel "The adventures of Curious George and Drizzt" posit Drizzt and his simian companion in Baldur's Gate Christmas 1985, may it be now understood that they were, in fact, objectively there at that time?
-In relationship to their own..."universes", for a lack of better terms, yes. If a reliable, objective source (as 3e sourcebooks are) stated that Drizzt had a simian companion named Curious George, and both were in Baldur's Gate in 1985, around Christmas time, then Drizzt did indeed have a simian companion named Curious George, and both were indeed in Baldur's Gate in 1985, around Christmas time.
-One can take that information and do with it what they want (heed it, ignore it, change it, and so on), but these events are what literally transpired, in relation to the Forgotten Realms "universe".
-And, of course, same goes for any of those other mentioned settings. Luke was on Hoth in Empire Strikes Back? Yes, that's how things went. Superman is weak against Kryptonite? Yes, that is indeed how things work...
As a DM you have to be creative, use the modules and adjust them to fit the legacy of your characters. If your players are are fans of the books throw in a character that is mentioned. I had one campaign where the Harpers were very innvolved.
Good luck on your future games.
-One can take that information and do with it what they want (heed it, ignore it, change it, and so on), but these events are what literally transpired, in relation to the Forgotten Realms "universe".
Superman is weak against Kryptonite? Yes, that is indeed how things work...
Within the context of Superman "canon", has he always been weak against Kryptonite? Will he always be so?
By producing gaming books which take place in the fictional FR universe, is WoTC inviting consumers to take part in that universe?
not possible, you shouldn't bother with that
Bah, ignore these people (no offense, Jiggawha). ;)
It's easy to run a "cannon" FR campaign. I'm currently running an FR campaign that started in 1338. They started out in Silverymoon, got exiled from Everlund, and are now in Longsaddle. It is VERY possible, but takes effort.
The secret is twofold...
1. Resources.
On this one, I think I have a slight advantage over most people. Outside of items specific to RPGA or old Polyhedron issues, I have all of the published material for FR, and a BUNCH of web resources as well, including downloaded PDF's from various on-line stores for easy search and access. With these resources, I have access to all sorts of old cannon material and events, as well as faction information, locations, and events. This does make things a lot easier.
2. Realistic Flexability
This is the most important part. Look, the Realms is the Realms. It is an ever growing, ever expanding, ever mutating and changing world. Events are occuring all over the Realms, all the time, and I think it would be foolish, for you, as a DM, to think that your character can, and should, be at all of those events at any time. The idea behind a "cannon" Realms experience, I feel, is more to show that the world moves on, with, or without them. Rumors are a great way to do this, sometimes, days, weeks, or months after the events occur, depending on where they are when it occurs. If you want to try (and I say TRY) to get them to go in a certain direction, to experience a certain event or two, then put out some rumors or information a few weeks or months prior to the event, to allow them to mosy on over and take a looksee. Understand though, that a player is a fickle creature, and won't necessarily go where you want. The best that you can hope for is to hit on about 40% of your preped events, in my opinion. In either case, as long as they get a feel for the vastness and complexity of the Realms, then you've suceeded as a DM. If you want, I can send you some of my rumor files and knowledge (local) files from my current campaign to give you an idea of what I am talking about.
Remember, your guys don't need to experience the plagues of Baldur's Gate in 1351 to see the impact. Mass death, starvation, bandits, trade route disruption, horror stories... all of these things helps them understand that something terrible has occured. Keep with this idea, and I think you'll have a lot of fun.
Within the context of Superman "canon", has he always been weak against Kryptonite? Will he always be so?
-I don't like Superman, and never followed his story, so I can't answer those questions.
-The point behind the veil, however: Can canon change? Yes, of course. The World Trade Center used to be in Lower Manhattan, and events have transpired such that they no longer stand in Lower Manhattan. They key point, though, is that an event transpires. There is a reason for a change. Superman isn't weak against Kryptonite one day, and then magically not the next. The World Trade Center wasn't there one day, and then magically not there the next.
By producing gaming books which take place in the fictional FR universe, is WoTC inviting consumers to take part in that universe?
-As well as created their own derivitates thereof (Fan-Fiction, D&D Campaigns, etc.), yes.
Bah, ignore these people (no offense, Jiggawha). ;)
It's easy to run a "cannon" FR campaign. I'm currently running an FR campaign that started in 1338. They started out in Silverymoon, got exiled from Everlund, and are now in Longsaddle. It is VERY possible, but takes effort.
The secret is twofold...
1. Resources.
On this one, I think I have a slight advantage over most people. Outside of items specific to RPGA or old Polyhedron issues, I have all of the published material for FR, and a BUNCH of web resources as well, including downloaded PDF's from various on-line stores for easy search and access. With these resources, I have access to all sorts of old cannon material and events, as well as faction information, locations, and events. This does make things a lot easier.
2. Realistic Flexability
This is the most important part. Look, the Realms is the Realms. It is an ever growing, ever expanding, ever mutating and changing world. Events are occuring all over the Realms, all the time, and I think it would be foolish, for you, as a DM, to think that your character can, and should, be at all of those events at any time. The idea behind a "cannon" Realms experience, I feel, is more to show that the world moves on, with, or without them. Rumors are a great way to do this, sometimes, days, weeks, or months after the events occur, depending on where they are when it occurs. If you want to try (and I say TRY) to get them to go in a certain direction, to experience a certain event or two, then put out some rumors or information a few weeks or months prior to the event, to allow them to mosy on over and take a looksee. Understand though, that a player is a fickle creature, and won't necessarily go where you want. The best that you can hope for is to hit on about 40% of your preped events, in my opinion. In either case, as long as they get a feel for the vastness and complexity of the Realms, then you've suceeded as a DM. If you want, I can send you some of my rumor files and knowledge (local) files from my current campaign to give you an idea of what I am talking about.
-And, when a player asks about the smell of a particular flower that we know grows in a particular area?
-And, when a player asks about the smell of a particular flower that we know grows in a particular area?
Well...
1. A rose by any other name still smells like a rose...
2. Elminsters ecologies
3. Make it up. I mean, come on. As a DM, sometimes you gotta make stuff up on the fly, and sometimes it won't even be cannon...
Act as if... in other words, you are the DM, therefore YOU are always right (unless you have a rules lawyer, then yer just screwed):D
Well...
1. A rose by any other name still smells like a rose...
2. Elminsters ecologies
3. Make it up. I mean, come on. As a DM, sometimes you gotta make stuff up on the fly, and sometimes it won't even be cannon...
Act as if... in other words, you are the DM, therefore YOU are always right (unless you have a rules lawyer, then yer just screwed):D
-Indeed, all are correct answers. However, they go against your claim that it is "easy to run a [canon] FR campaign". In the middle of the campaign, if you simply use option (1) and/or (3), you are threatening the intrgrity of the "canonicity" of the campaign. If you use option (2), it is time consuming, as you need to break out those resources, flip through them looking for the relevant information, if nothing is found there, you'll have to scan through Ed's responses at Candlekeep...What players are going to sit there and twiddle their thumbs?
-I don't like Superman, and never followed his story, so I can't answer those questions.
The issue arises, though, when a body of fiction is so expansive like that of Superman or FR, of internal contradictions. And these contradictions arent always as straightforward as placing Drizzt and Curious George in Waterdeep instead of Baldur's Gate Christmas 1985. What if a novel places Drizzt and George in Shadowdale December 23rd? Whilst not directly contradicting our previous "canonical" information, our sources now create a dilemma, dont they? And what shall we do with this dilemma?
The issue arises, though, when a body of fiction is so expansive like that of Superman or FR, of internal contradictions. And these contradictions arent always as straightforward as placing Drizzt and Curious George in Waterdeep instead of Baldur's Gate Christmas 1985. What if a novel places Drizzt and George in Shadowdale December 23rd? Whilst not directly contradicting our previous "canonical" information, our sources now create a dilemma, dont they? And what shall we do with this dilemma?
-Which demonstrates that "with great power comes great responsibility". Those doing the writing need to "keep on top" of things, especially when the setting is a shared sandbox, where everyone shares, rather than a solo venture.
-As to what is ultimatley done...It depends on the situaton, and the 'severity'. Some continuity problems are simply ignored. For example, in his Last Mythal books, Rich Baker mistakenly referred to Queen Amlauril's hair color as black. It is red. But, a minor detail can easily be overlooked, so no harm, no foul. Some are a bit more 'obvious'. New lore had to be written up to rectify the problem with the Tree of Souls in the same novel trilogy. In some cases, existence is simply retconned, and that is that (I personally hate this latter option).
-But, what in your recommendation can be done in such a dilemma?
-Indeed, all are correct answers. However, they go against your claim that it is "easy to run a [canon] FR campaign". In the middle of the campaign, if you simply use option (1) and/or (3), you are threatening the intrgrity of the "canonicity" of the campaign. If you use option (2), it is time consuming, as you need to break out those resources, flip through them looking for the relevant information, if nothing is found there, you'll have to scan through Ed's responses at Candlekeep...What players are going to sit there and twiddle their thumbs?
Well, this is just taking it to the extreme, I think. If someone wants to play an FR game that is THAT true to the world, and wants to go through THAT much effort, all the power to them. Me, I make some of it up. Otherwise, even I'd go nuts.
And none of my characters have ever asked me what a certain flower smells like. Hell, they never even cared about the flora, unless it's attacking them...
Well, this is just taking it to the extreme, I think. If someone wants to play an FR game that is THAT true to the world, and wants to go through THAT much effort, all the power to them. Me, I make some of it up. Otherwise, even I'd go nuts.
-That's the point.
And none of my characters have ever asked me what a certain flower smells like.
I'm the type of person who would ask something like that.
-That's the point.
Well, then they sit and wait...
and find it out smells like a rose;)
Well, then they sit and wait...
and find it out smells like a rose;)
-And, when ZYX supplement that has already been published says the flower smells like a fresh loaf of bread, then the campaign is that much less 100% canon. Which is the point I am making. It's impossible to keep an actual campaign 100% canon.
How likely is it that the DM is confronted with a situation that is described in canon, but that he doesn't know/remember?
I don't know, but my gut feeling is that it is possible to avoid these situations with some clever preplanning and cooperative players.
I agree. I was just considering the theoretical possibility of running a canon campaign. I'd never consider running a canon campaign in real life, though.
-And, when ZYX supplement that has already been published says the flower smells like a fresh loaf of bread, then the campaign is that much less 100% canon. Which is the point I am making. It's impossible to keep an actual campaign 100% canon.
Now your just being cheeky...
Fine, if you want me to say it, I will. There can never be a 100% canon campaign, since TSR & WoTC would constantly contradict themselves on various things. But hey, that's the joy of being a DM.
Now, as to the original idea behind this thread...
Does anybody else have any suggestions or questions?
So the question then becomes:
How likely is it that the DM is confronted with a situation that is described in canon, but that he doesn't know/remember?
I don't know, but my gut feeling is that it is possible to avoid these situations with some clever preplanning and cooperative players.
-Depends how detailed you want to get, how closely to canon you want to adhere to, and, of course, how much preparation beforehand, and how good your memory is. Plenty of variables.
-That the situation might pop up is probably a given. I don't think anyone can read, remember and prepare ahead of time for a query from every single source, barring a photographic memory. That said, of course, depending on the above mentioned variables, it dealing with it ranges from easy (making up whatever details are necessary) to difficult (asking Ed Greenwood and putting the campaign on hold in the meantime, until when/if he answers the question).
Now your just being cheeky...
-No, I am making the point.
Anyways... Lo and behold, out comes the Last Mythal Trilogy. I try to always run with cannon as best I can, however this time I was left with two choices. Either I could handwave away the players accomplishments and say that it never happened. Or I could ignore the new information and let what happened in game stay, which is what I did.
Anyways... Lo and behold, out comes the Last Mythal Trilogy. I try to always run with cannon as best I can, however this time I was left with two choices. Either I could handwave away the players accomplishments and say that it never happened. Or I could ignore the new information and let what happened in game stay, which is what I did.
Yup! That is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post on the subject--all it takes is one novel or sourcebook to retroactively make a home game non-canon, and since there is no way to predict that, my opinion is that trying to make your game be in perfect lockstep with canon is a fruitless task.
And my question is, why does it matter so long as everyone's having a good time... canon is good when used as a reference point and for getting the feel of the Realms, but bad if used as a straightjacket during a game. Creativity is a good thing in a DM, most of the time anyway, and artificially suppressing that is generally not a good idea. If you're worrying more about adhering to the official timeline than you are about having fun, then you've got larger problems than just a lore-filled setting. Damn the man...
QFT.
So the question then becomes:
How likely is it that the DM is confronted with a situation that is described in canon, but that he doesn't know/remember?
OMG....lots!
There's sooooooo much lore out there that DMs are likely trouncing on it without really realizing it.
What's key here is that a DM remember (i.e. write down) who and/or what he introduces into the game, so the next time around he knows to use them/that again.
Consistency at this point is far more important than trying to find a work-around to introduce something lore-wise that the DM simply forgot.
I've come to two grand conclusions.
1. If you want to have a truely CANON D&D game in the Forgotten Realms, you're doomed. Throw away your books, burn your notes, format your computers, and microwave your CD programs. It's not possible, so you might as well give up and go learn cross stitching.
or..
2. You can just have fun. Use the references you want, make adjustments as you can, and make sure your players enjoy themselves. D&D is just that... fun. And it doesn't need to be completely canon to fun. And that story about the party that retook Myth Drannor?!?! Brilliant! I wish my party would get a clue and do SOMETHING, ANYTHING... except get exiled. They seem to be really good at that.
Oh, and Lord Karsus, my player promised me that the next time we play, he's going to ask me "what that flower over there smells like." Thanks...
Perhaps choose one of the fifteen responses which will fit best into your campaign. Or the one that is most interesting. Or the one that seems well supported by the narrative you envision in the realms.
After all, nothing really happened in Myth Drannor at all. Its fiction. Canon for canon's sake has always puzzled me.
Well canon has its place. Let's take a fictional setting and posit that you and I are running our own campaigns off that setting. The setting? The Three Musketeers.
D'artagnan's greatest desire is to be a musketeer. Eventually he not only becomes a musketeer, he becomes the leader of the Musketeers (in spite of the fact the Historical musketeers were defunct during the time he supposedly earned a commission) and then goes on to become Field Marshal of France (posthumously IIRC).
The original book not only gets him his recommendation but also his first promotion (to lieutenant IIRC). While the titular Three Musketeers all retire and go their separate ways after the first book.
Neat little fact, D'artagnan gets recomended not once but twice. In the middle of the book, Cardinal Richeleu recomends D'artagnan after certain actions taken against the Heugonots. The next chapter has D'artagnan lamenting the fact he has yet to earn a letter of recommendation into the King's Musketeers. Seems Dumas (pere) wasn't the sole author of the novel. Instead he was the head of a publishing house who gave creative points to the many authors who wrote each individual chapter in a serialized form. So "canon" for the musketeers has D'artagnan being recommended by the Cardinal and then mysteriously forgetting to be recommended later (by the Queen IIRC).
So how you run your campaign and how I run mine might be different. But canon gives us a place to start. It helps us figure out what base line should look like. Imagine trying to read Harry Dresden novels to have the entire storyline changed with every past novel now made null and void. How would you follow the character? How would you know where to start? Granted certain facts may be slightly fudged in such a series as the author forgets what he said in book 1 while writting book 7, but the overall history of the character remains the same.
Now we both have a common point of reference to go on. If you want to branch off from book 3 and take the whole story line in one direction while I go from book 6 and take it in another, more power to both of us. But without that "canon" you're running a story about Harry Potter and I'm running a story about Harry Houdini and we both come vaguely close to Harry Dresden in that we both have a Harry and there may be a city named Dresden in both our worlds.
Oh, and Lord Karsus, my player promised me that the next time we play, he's going to ask me "what that flower over there smells like." Thanks...
-If you are attempting to stick 100% with canon, you better start looking it up now. ;)
Now your just being cheeky...
Fine, if you want me to say it, I will. There can never be a 100% canon campaign, since TSR & WoTC would constantly contradict themselves on various things. But hey, that's the joy of being a DM.
Now, as to the original idea behind this thread...
Does anybody else have any suggestions or questions?
Well, see that is the original idea behind this thread. Can you be 100% canon? What it really comes down to are:
a) what do you mean by being a canon campaign? If you have a high tolerance for "making it up on the fly but it's still canon" then good for you.
b) how likely are your players to push the bounds? Will they pester you constantly with "what color is X?" "what does Y taste like?" "what does Z smell like?" etc? Then your either straying from canon or accepting a low canon game (or a wunderkind who knows it all before hand). If they aren't going to ask all those detailed question, you're golden and can go on feeling like your still 100% canon.
For the record, I'm fairly certain all those reports of spontaneous human combustion were actually gm's contemplating running a 100% canon game then reading all the canon. They became sooooo agitated at trying to contain that much knowledge while contemplating all the ways their players could derail their efforts to keep all on track, they burst into flames.
Well, I've read this thread, I've posted on this thread, and I've responded, as well...
I've come to two grand conclusions.
1. If you want to have a truely CANON D&D game in the Forgotten Realms, you're doomed. Throw away your books, burn your notes, format your computers, and microwave your CD programs. It's not possible, so you might as well give up and go learn cross stitching.
or..
2. You can just have fun. Use the references you want, make adjustments as you can, and make sure your players enjoy themselves. D&D is just that... fun. And it doesn't need to be completely canon to fun. And that story about the party that retook Myth Drannor?!?! Brilliant! I wish my party would get a clue and do SOMETHING, ANYTHING... except get exiled. They seem to be really good at that.
Oh, and Lord Karsus, my player promised me that the next time we play, he's going to ask me "what that flower over there smells like." Thanks...
Well, the second isn't really a canon game. That is more what the vast majority of folks do. If they're game and canon deviate too much they either shrug and go on or wrap things up and start a new campaign a little closer to base canon.
The first isn't really true if only because of the statement "nothing is impossible, only beyond one's imagination." Course just because you can imagine HOW to implement a 100% canon game (or can at least imagine that you'ld like to try) doesn't mean you have the energy to do so. Now your players might cooperate and not examine the world too closely, allowing you to "run a canon game" without punching too many holes in that belief.
Now working large swaths of canon in your game doesn't negate the fun. It adds a level of detail that makes immersing yourself into this fictional world all the more possible. But keeping up with everything that comes out (especially with the novels being canon) you fall behind really easy and end doing things in your game that are not canon. If a detail (any detail no matter how small) is one way in your game and another in the novel/sourcebook/online article then your way isn't canon and your game just became that much less canon.
Now working large swaths of canon in your game doesn't negate the fun.
I think it adds fun meself
First find your players starting points in the realms, much of your adventure concept is going to depend on the race origins and class of your characters.
Second forget about starting at level one. In the Realms only children are first level. The characters for the most part got from point A to point B and so include one or two levels in their background or solo them individually from a start to party link up point.
Third move to an edge of the map, where forest meets plains, the stone-lands, the coast, the edge of a desert, the bottom of the social scale or some place of that nature. Get the PC's out from under the control of the high level characters in certain areas. My last three adventure starts were...Impultur where coast meets swamp and forrest... A party carving out a stronghold under government grant. A group guarding a band of Dwarf miners in the wilderness at a new gold mine...and a band of poor thugs in Waterdeep who wanted to get a piece of the pie...
Then have them meet growing challenges related to their success. For instance I had the Dwarf miners use the characters to ship gold overland, then the dwarves opened an underground complex from an ancient civilization...and of course local dragons caught the whiff of gold.
In the City the heroes ran into some reckless young nobles with a lot of magic items and not much sense messing about in Undermountain, and they robbed them, had to deal with vendettas, fences for stolen goods and seeking spells. You level up fast in that situation...
In Impultur there were Lizard men in the Swamp, Hobgoblins in the forest and menaces from the sea, but there was also lumber, a quarry and rich fertile farmland once the land was drained. A dock and town and some roads and your PC's grow into players in the game of politics, with taxes to pay, lords to cope with and royal charters to uphold.
My characters run into local famous NPC in their activities, people like Mirt, Drizzt or Arlene Moonblade when they are in the same area. But I steer them away from joining them or working for them, just touch and go...
Not sure what all advice has been given already but I have been doing this for twenty years so I will take a swing.
Good to have you around sir. Good to have you around.
Mr. -I've been doing this for 20 years too- Micellany
Good to have you around sir. Good to have you around.
Mr. -I've been doing this for 20 years too- Micellany
you're almost as old as I am then