I am still not sure about the alignment issue but I would like to see a Lawful Good Amaunator but I guess I would accept a LN one as well. Will he have any recollection of having been Lathander? I am intensely curious.
Many here are better informed than I, so if you are in the know, pleae do inform me!
Personally, I like the Dawn Cataclysm because I thing many extraplanar events should happen or evolve beyond the reckoning of mortals.
However if WotC puts things down to the second on what happened when, I'm good.
I would also like to see a lawful good Amaunator. Since he used to be LN, and Lathander was NG, having the new Amaunator as LG would be a good way of not completly *losing* Lathander and what he stood for. And then Amaunator could fill the empty spot in the Triad left by Tyr's random dissapearance.
Would like to see it but I don't think it will happen.
A different topic but I am very interested to see how the gods' symbols are reformated.
So the answer will be up to the DM.
Do you really think they will do away with Lathander, pop up with Amaunator and not give any background on it?
No, history will be established for that 100 year time frame. And with it, at least a brief explanation of how and why the gods ended up where they are.
Also note that fans have been speculating the whole thing about 'Risen Sun', and 'Setting Sun' since 2e and the ToT. I think this began as fan speculation, if I'm not mistaken, and the designers decided to 'roll with it'.
Its one of the few things in 4e that was entirely expected and not "WTF?" inspiring, so I don't really think they need to "pull off" anything.
Its one of the few things in 4e that was entirely expected and not "WTF?" inspiring, so I don't really think they need to "pull off" anything.
True.
Do you really think they will do away with Lathander, pop up with Amaunator and not give any background on it?
Considering that's how they're doing everything else, why not?
Do you really think they will do away with Lathander, pop up with Amaunator and not give any background on it?
Yes.
Considering that's how they're doing everything else, why not?
Because FR has always been about its depth, lore, and history. They've made a sweep, but its not a clean sweep. They want to keep a connection between FR3 and FR4. Why the hell would you alienate your following?
Yes.
Regarder la femme!
Je m'attends à mieux de votre part!
Regarder la femme!
Je m'attends à mieux de votre part!
Je suis désolé, mais la vérité est comme l'amour, laid et permanente.
Je suis désolé, mais la vérité est comme l'amour, laid et permanente.
Oh snap, you gonna take that from him JD?
Btw, what are you all saying in french?
Because FR has always been about its depth, lore, and history. They've made a sweep, but its not a clean sweep. They want to keep a connection between FR3 and FR4. Why the hell would you alienate your following?
Oh, I see. You're using irony.
If you meant this seriously, then god help you.
Oh snap, you gonna take that from him JD?
Btw, what are you all saying in french?
He said he expected better from me, so I told him I was sorry but - truth is like love, ugly and permanent. LOL.
Maybe they did it over time....more and more people calling him by the name name, the movement in the church becomes bigger and bigger until it more of less takes over as Lathander changes - or they will do it like Loth with her silence maybe ending in a full day of Sunlight... or he could do even announce it to his church that it´s time to transform to fight the enemies of the light....
When it comes to alignments according to people who have seen the nw core books there are only 5 of them now
Lawfull good
Good (diffence between CG and NG rather insignificat IMO)
unaligned
Evil (LE and NE very similar)
Chaotic Evil (also good mirror to LG kinda like Paladin vs Blackguard)
Still, I think it would've made for a fantastic opportunity, had they coexisted together in the 4E Realms. Because while the whole "three aspects of the same deity" thing isn't true, it is true that, at most, you can only have two gods holding the three sun portfolios at once. You can have Dawn and Highsun, Highsun and Dusk, or Dusk and Highsun, but never Dawn, Highsun, and Dusk. So Amaunator's reappearance would've lent an air of desperation to Lathander, as he knew his time was running out. We know he's working again on the same project that led to the Dawn Cataclysm. How would his plans change if he thought that his time were about to run out, and that if he was to 'save' Faerun, it had to be now or never? What would that mean? Would his haste lead to some kind of calamity? How far would he have been willing to go in order to delay or prevent the arrival of the Lord of Dusk in order to push forward his agenda? Interesting possibilities which'll never come to be. Ah well.
I expect noinfo on the matter, and just a simple explanation that they always have been the same being, known under different names.
Oh snap, you gonna take that from him JD?
Therise is a she. And I’m her doudou. All I can say is poo-poo and deal with it.
Oh, I see. You're using irony.
If you meant this seriously, then god help you.
God helps no man. We’re all on our own. By your everyday demeanor, I would assume you knew this.
I expect noinfo on the matter, and just a simple explanation that they always have been the same being, known under different names.
I expect you’ll get the same info as you did in the 3e setting, with a description for Amaunator much like they gave Bane, with his return.
As for the topic question? We will most likely find out the answer when the FRCG comes out. Until then, it's all speculation.
If he subsumes Lathanders role perhaps Lathander will remain his subordinate. That is unless Amaunator just consumes Lathander entirely.
-Lathander is Amaunator. The new craze is that deities are all multi-faceted metaphysical things, and the "new" sun deity is another step that way. The holder of the Dusk portfolio, the Dawn portfolio and the High Sun portfolio...All the same higher 'entity'.
-Anyway, as was mentioned, I believe there will be minimal detail on this matter in the 4e FRCS, like the 3e FRCS had minimal detail on the return of Bane. Don't forget that, as of now, there will not be a 4e version of Faiths and Pantheons, either.
-Funny, being as how the Risen Sun was a heretical sect, after all...
To answer the opening question - I'm pretty sure poorly.
I expect no info on the matter, and just a simple explanation that they always have been the same being, known under different names.
Based on what WotC has shown us so far, I completely agree with you. If I had to make a guess I'd say they say the switch was somehow pulled off by the Spellplague. I know it doesn't make sense on the surface, but neither does so much else of what we've seen. I'm just following the established trend.
Therise is a she. And I’m her doudou. All I can say is poo-poo and deal with it.
-But she loves me!!! :P
-For now that is.
18D
Based on what WotC has shown us so far, I completely agree with you. If I had to make a guess I'd say they say the switch was somehow pulled off by the Spellplague. I know it doesn't make sense on the surface, but neither does so much else of what we've seen. I'm just following the established trend.
As I have voiced in the past and Karsus--in some slight way--has allude to in other posts, if there is going to be any big kick off for Amaunator, it will be done in the novel Shadowrealm. Other than that....
-But she loves me!!! :P
-For now that is.
18D
Do you have any idea what it takes to be this. I think not. So step off before you are corrupted.
Do you have any idea what it takes to be this. I think not. So step off before you are corrupted.
That's right, I'm a -harsh- taskmistress!
That's right, I'm a -harsh- taskmistress!
Mal chienne!!
Mal chienne!!
No no, all evidence of naughtiness will be photoshopped out, which means it never happened.
This would constitute fluff and we all know 4ed is NOT about fluff...just heroes from birth and mechanics to kill everything in sight just by blowing your nose...and you can rest for 2 hours back to full health if the family cat happens to crit you while swinging its tail. Plus we know the dev's have said "no fluff" since people were complaining about 30 years of fluff and it was so...hard...to grasp and was scaring people off so they just HAD to get rid of fluff and make an entire new setting and slap an old name on it so it would be recognizible in some fashion so they could sell it to the unwary.
So, I must ask, in all seriousness...after reading so much about 30 years of fluff being such a bad thing, people have the audacity to ask for more fluff already??
I feel a need to say this so please forgive me
This would constitute fluff and we all know 4ed is NOT about fluff...just heroes from birth and mechanics to kill everything in sight just by blowing your nose...and you can rest for 2 hours back to full health if the family cat happens to crit you while swinging its tail. Plus we know the dev's have said "no fluff" since people were complaining about 30 years of fluff and it was so...hard...to grasp and was scaring people off so they just HAD to get rid of fluff and make an entire new setting and slap an old name on it so it would be recognizible in some fashion so they could sell it to the unwary.
So, I must ask, in all seriousness...after reading so much about 30 years of fluff being such a bad thing, people have the audacity to ask for more fluff already??
Heh, I don't know if people are asking for "more" fluff, they just want a really good, logical reason for replacing Lathander with Amaunator. Since we know they're going ahead with the switch anyway, I think it would be excellent if they tied in elements from Amaunator's portfolio(s) as being part of the reason for the necessary transformation. Having Amaunator respond to Cyric's murder of Mystra as a function of carrying out his portfolio, perhaps in a way that only -he- could do as Amaunator (and not as Lathander) would be sort of neat.
Responding to the need for godly law (or justice), or acting to make sure the timeline isn't damaged, or even something about an added level of maturity in the pursuit of law and good, all of those would be cool ways to go with Amaunator. It wouldn't be cool if the new FRCS just glosses over the switch.
So, I must ask, in all seriousness...after reading so much about 30 years of fluff being such a bad thing, people have the audacity to ask for more fluff already??
Yes.
No no, all evidence of naughtiness will be photoshopped out, which means it never happened.
Just no more use of the cat-o-nine tails. It really hurts.
Heh, I don't know if people are asking for "more" fluff, they just want a really good, logical reason for replacing Lathander with Amaunator. Since we know they're going ahead with the switch anyway, I think it would be excellent if they tied in elements from Amaunator's portfolio(s) as being part of the reason for the necessary transformation. Having Amaunator respond to Cyric's murder of Mystra as a function of carrying out his portfolio, perhaps in a way that only -he- could do as Amaunator (and not as Lathander) would be sort of neat.
Well, according to the GHotR, Tyr, Lathander, and Sune all placed Cyric under house arrest, so it's not like the goodly deities didn't do anything.
Well, according to the GHotR, Tyr, Lathander, and Sune all placed Cyric under house arrest, so it's not like the goodly deities didn't do anything.
I'm not disputing that, really. I was just saying it'd be nice to tie in the Lathander-Amaunator transformation to something related to or required of Amaunator's portfolio. For example, Cyric might try to get out of house arrest with some kind of legal loophole, and Amaunator might emerge to deal with that in a way that Lathander wouldn't.
When the Gods, humbly appraoched his most powerfulness and politely asked him as to why.
He Said:
Because I Can.
So There!:P
It's Magic. No other reason is needed.
We will probably never know the truth.
AO did it.
When the Gods, humbly appraoched his most powerfulness and politely asked him as to why.
He Said:
Because I Can.
So There!:P
It's Magic. No other reason is needed.
We will probably never know the truth.
AO was sunbathing in Hawaii at the time. Where the hell do you get your canon, dummy?
Well, according to the GHotR, Tyr, Lathander, and Sune all placed Cyric under house arrest, so it's not like the goodly deities didn't do anything.
I have to admit that I don´t buy for a second that he will actually stay in there the full time - also the gods did capture Kezef the chaos hound too and Cyric could just let him out. I think they should get Kezef too and put them together in the same plane, after all dear Mask deserves a break.
I have to admit that I don´t buy for a second that he will actually stay in there the full time - also the gods did capture Kezef the chaos hound too and Cyric could just let him out. I think they should get Kezef too and put them together in the same plane, after all dear Mask deserves a break.
Yet, Mystra can't come back.
And Mask will be back, baby!! Big time!!
AO was sunbathing in Hawaii at the time. Where the hell do you get your canon, dummy?
No he was busy listening to all remaining drow gods that they are unhappy with his ruling at that ended the sava game with a draw. Also Elistrae is unhappy that thanks to her idiot brother she now grows hair in inapropiate places and Lolth is ****** for getting Kiransales bad skin together with her powers.
No he was busy listening to all remaining drow gods that they are unhappy with his ruling at that ended the sava game with a draw. Also Elistrae is unhappy that thanks to her idiot brother she now grows hair in inapropiate places and Lolth is ****** for getting Kiransales bad skin together with her powers.
Uh...in the words of MC Hammer: Can't touch this.
Can't you guys recognize Dopplegangers when you see them?
No of course not - but isn´t that the whole point about them?
@JudgeDookie: Metal image is extra sticky :D I actually only got the books bechause someone on this board made an amazing parodi about them where all the gods cam back to the table ;)
No of course not - but isn´t that the whole point about them?
Since I wear glasses, I made sure to invest in Glasses of True Seeing. I guess it was a good investment, eh?
:P
:D
Can't you guys recognize Dopplegangers when you see them?
Why? When Halle Berry comes up and says, "Hi! I'm Halle, wanna get a room?" Am I supposed to question such things?" ;)
@JudgeDookie: Metal image is extra sticky :D I actually only got the books bechause someone on this board made an amazing parodi about them where all the gods cam back to the table ;)
Dude--and I sincerely apologize about this--but I simply can't piece together what you are trying to say. Maybe English is your second language? Seriously, no offense.
I just cannot piece together what you are saying to me. Really--again, I'm not trying to be mean or anything.
Why? When Halle Berry comes up and says, "Hi! I'm Halle, wanna get a room?" Am I supposed to question such things?" ;)
Dude--and I sincerely apologize about this--but I simply can't piece together what you are trying to say. Maybe English is your second language? Seriously, no offense.
I just cannot piece together what you are saying to me. Really--again, I'm not trying to be mean or anything.
Initially I did not purchase the books chause people on this board were far from happy about what happened. In on thread about the subject someone wrote an amusing piece of fiction detailing what all the dead drow gods comming back to the game board and claiming that it was a joke and they werent really dead.
IIRC Vaeraun comes back comes back and says"Can I play again I am kinda bored." Lolth rather shocked" But she killed you" pointing at her doughter who tryed to look smug " damn does nobody stay dead nowadays?"
Just in tht moment Kiransale appears besides Lolth and says in a voice like dryed prunes "Well now that you mention it...." .
Lolth stares at Kiransale until she says directed at the two goddesses " Did you really think you could beat me with the same lame old trick I used to beat Orcus - and start the whole shamefull Tenebrus story ?"
Vaeraun after he got his mask back from his sister:"Well I have to admid it was my sisters idea, and several of my priests asked for a chance to ogle her clergy while dancing :angelhide so it´s a win win , besides I needed a vacation anyways."
Lolth watches the others for a time until she sights and says" I knew the bloody silence was a lousy PR stunt, ok I got in the bestseller lists a better divine rank moved into my own house and got a slutty new aspect, but once you stop whipping all the disciplin goes down the drain ...."
Ok my version sucks
PS:its 4 AM right now where i am so my writing is a tad worse than most of the time.
I also hope I do not see many LG gods, especially one in positions of great power. I hate the alignment system with a passion.
The new one or the old one? Or both?
I hope Torm is labeled Good or unaligned since he will have Tyrs and Helms duties I am not sure if he should represent good or evil but balance, justice, and duty which all ring Unaligned (neutral) to me.
How do we know Torm has received Tyr's duties or Helm's duties? I haven't seen anything confirming that for a fact.
But Unaligned? That doesn't suit his character at all.
I was thinking the same thing. Sorry Rauric.
I also hope I do not see many LG gods, especially one in positions of great power. I hate the alignment system with a passion. I hope Torm is labeled Good or unaligned since he will have Tyrs and Helms duties I am not sure if he should represent good or evil but balance, justice, and duty which all ring Unaligned (neutral) to me.
So you don't like the new alignment system?
Not sure how I feel about it myself. I want to see how it will work. It does seem like the couldn't decide if they should just trash the aligment system altogether or keep the rigid one so they split the difference which probably doesn't bode well
Regarding Torm. I think that he may snatch up both Tyr's and Helm's portfolio. I think that to represent those ideals, justice, pretection, duty and guardianship he will (or should) change how he views the world and perhaps go with Unaligned (neutral) so he can fairly follow those job descriptions. Just like Kelemvor changed his attitude for cosmic balance I think the same should be done for Torm. Maybe one of his exarchs can represent the good (Tyr) and evil (Hoar) side of things but he should (IMO) remain impartial and coldly neutral. The world has changed much, I think the gods that last it out will change in ways like I described above.
I think the same should happen to Mask when he gains greater deity status.
Perhaps he will represent all trickster deities and maybe illusion after he "steals" it from Cyric. ;)
Besides, aside from Torm, what other LG Greater Gods will there be in the 4E Realms? Moradin? He's to race specific. So aside from them, anyone else? If you're going to have an alignment system, then you should have at least one deity to represent each alignment.
And I agree with you on the alignment system. They should've either dropped LG and CE, or kept CG and LE. This half-and-half stuff is just weird. Oh well. At least alignment no longer has any bearing on game mechanics.
I will take the new one over the old, but I would just prefer a good, evil and unaligned system.
I really wish they had just done that, myself.
Besides, aside from Torm, what other LG Greater Gods will there be in the 4E Realms? Moradin? He's to race specific. So aside from them, anyone else?
Maybe Bahamut? I know he and Moradin are the only core gods who are going to be LG! That's two gods.
I don't think we are exactly in danger of being inundated with LG gods, at any rate.
I will take the new one over the old, but I would just prefer a good, evil and unaligned system. I think it is better for roleplaying to keep alignment out of it personally.
I don't disagree. I would have liked them not to have split the difference. Either keep it the old way or the way you suggest. This half-baked concotation probably won't work
Maybe Bahamut? I know he and Moradin are the only core gods who are going to be LG! That's two gods.
I don't think we are exactly in danger of being inundated with LG gods, at any rate.
Yep. And it's possible that Bahamut, in the Realms at least, won't even be a Greater God. He may be a Lesser God (although hopefully he's a Greater God in core). Well, we'll find out what his status is soon enough.
From all the different things I am reading, I personally think now that the "transformation" will take place within his church and not with the god himself. A "miracle" or two will take place, a civil war will follow, and the true worshipers of Lathander will be labeled heretics--forced to convert or die. The divide between the two factions is so great and equal in number that Lathandar himself can only simply wait for the outcome, as stepping in on either side can only create further chaos.
It will pass that he was always Amaunator, corruption in the church during the days of Netheril changed his goodly aspects and name, and these "unwitting heretics" were finally put down when Amaunator showed his followers the truth. They weren't bad, simply misguided.
The old way was wonky as well. The new way isn't really less wonky, it is really not "better" either. It simply is. Alignment is like Vancian magic, it is a relic of the old way that does nothing but complicate things IMO.
Yet, alignment for a god can be something as little as the perception by his followers.
Unless you get into true game mechanics, of course.
Actually, I liked the idea of Amaunator having been a LN god of bureaucrats.
That's what he'll be IMC. That makes the struggle within the church much more poignant - that Amaunator isn't just another name for roughly the same package of ideals, but that it's a whole new ball game.
DB
Wouldn't that rather be the point of the change in the first place?
Hence, the word "change"?
Hmmmm....
No. Probably not.
As I read farther into Swordmage, I'm really beginning to lean towards Lathander getting "forcibly" changed into Amaunator. The way characters and his church talk about him in the book, they speak nothing of any great "emergence" or "rebirth." Lathander is simply the name that he was once known by. His previous "incarnation." They also call it his "ancient" name.
From all the different things I am reading, I personally think now that the "transformation" will take place within his church and not with the god himself. A "miracle" or two will take place, a civil war will follow, and the true worshipers of Lathander will be labeled heretics--forced to convert or die. The divide between the two factions is so great and equal in number that Lathandar himself can only simply wait for the outcome, as stepping in on either side can only create further chaos.
It will pass that he was always Amaunator, corruption in the church during the days of Netheril changed his goodly aspects and name, and these "unwitting heretics" were finally put down when Amaunator showed his followers the truth. They weren't bad, simply misguided.
Well Judge I think it will be more of a bloodless civil war, a lot of heavy debating then they accept it. Of course we will learn more when the FRCG arrives in August.
-When you begin to analyze this, though, things get a bit messy. Especially since the Time of Troubles.
Lord Retcon strikes again...
-Harness it's powers, and you become unstoppable. Heh, you retcon the universe to prevent yourself from having "stoppability" to begin with. :D
-All I know is that I liked Lathander. As he was.
Well Judge I think it will be more of a bloodless civil war, a lot of heavy debating then they accept it. Of course we will learn more when the FRCG arrives in August.
Yeah, my word "die" was a bit more dramatic than I meant it to be. More or less, they will convert or lose their faith in the church. I don't know if it will actually be "bloodless," as when you get zealous and have heretics within your midst you can get a bit mid-evil at times. But I do see a crusade of sorts taking place. Already, tensions have bordered on violence within the church, and I don't see it taking much to tip things over.
Either way, the result is thus:
-I don't remember if I mentioned this, but Lathander is Amaunator. Being cryptically vague, Rich Baker has mentioned that there is a "higher" Sun Deity Entity who is tripartite, having the 'Dusk', 'Dawn' and 'High Sun' portfolios, who goes through phases. These phases are the holders of these portfolios. Thus, they are all the same entity.
Yet, the new church sees only one aspect, as the former did.
Yet, the new church sees only one aspect, as the former did.
-An amazingly complete, but not thought out (on "their" part, not yours) answer.
-Again, the Time of Troubles: Why did both Myrkul and Lathander have two seperate avatars, when each deity was alloted only one? Same thing with any deities that are merged in a Retcon. A big "D'oh!" moment, that's what.
Is Sword Mage specifically about the Lathander/Amaunator issue?
No. There is an undead aspect to the novel, which sort of makes it easy to bring in Lathander/Amaunator too catalyst some things.
-An amazingly complete, but not thought out (on "their" part, not yours) answer.
-Again, the Time of Troubles: Why did both Myrkul and Lathander have two seperate avatars, when each deity was alloted only one? Same thing with any deities that are merged in a Retcon. A big "D'oh!" moment, that's what.
Why didn't they?
I brought the avatar thing up a month or so ago. It is a big "Doh!" if it happens.
But, again, you can explain this as the avatar bing most what the god represented. Unless, that is, you've stumbled upon something I haven't heard yet and there is proof that one of the "merged" gods of 4e actually had more than one avatar during the ToT...?
Why didn't they?
-As of yet, there is no explanation, and (personally), I don't think this is the kind of "minor" detail that is likely to get one.
But, again, you can explain this as the avatar bing most what the god represented. Unless, that is, you've stumbled upon something I haven't heard yet and there is proof that one of the "merged" gods of 4e actually had more than one avatar during the ToT...?
-No, no, no. I meant that- keeping in mind that during the Time of Troubles, every deity was allotted one avatar to use- if this theoretical "higher" sun deity, that encompasses the Dusk, Dawn and High Sun portfolios, is and has always been a single, tripartite entity, why were there seperate avatars for both Lathander and Myrkul, who would now be part of the same deity?
-As of yet, there is no explanation, and (personally), I don't think this is the kind of "minor" detail that is likely to get one.
I should have been more clear with the direction of my question--I was asking you if you meant "didn't," rather than "did."
Either way, I see where it was coming from now.
-No, no, no. I meant that- keeping in mind that during the Time of Troubles, every deity was allotted one avatar to use- if this theoretical "higher" sun deity, that encompasses the Dusk, Dawn and High Sun portfolios, is and has always been a single, tripartite entity, why were there seperate avatars for both Lathander and Myrkul, who would now be part of the same deity?
I never jump on board for this "triune" crap. For now, I am simply focusing on the Lathandar to Amaunator transition. I think reaching out for Myrkul, simply because he had "dusk" in his portfolio at the time of ToT, is just goofy. Especially as the two were listed as foes at the time. Dusk leans more towards Shar's portfolio. Which means, you might as well add her to the mix and create a four way split.
I should have been more clear with the direction of my question--I was asking you if you meant "didn't," rather than "did."
Either way, I see where it was coming from now.
-No, I meant what I said. They each had one. But, if you see what I was implying, it all works out.
I never jump on board for this "triune" crap. For now, I am simply focusing on the Lathandar to Amaunator transition. I think reaching out for Myrkul, simply because he had "dusk" in his portfolio at the time of ToT, is just goofy. Especially as the two were listed as foes at the time. Dusk leans more towards Shar's portfolio. Which means, you might as well add her to the mix and create a four way split.
-We have been told that the Dawn-High Sun-Dusk portfolios are all interconnected. Only two can be present at one time, with that holder in power.
-Jergal was the original holder of the Dusk portfolio. He "gave it away", so to speak, to Myrkul. This is where things start getting fishy. Jergal, being part of that original triune dawn-noon-dusk deity, does he become his own entity now? Maybe this is one of the reasons he gave the portfolio away. Is Myrkul absorbed into it? Does he retain his own "independence", so to speak? Are both part of the triune dawn-noon-dusk deity, and it becomes quadrapartite? Do both escape, and it becomes dual aspect?
-It really opens up a can of worms...Not on the surface, but when thought is applied to the whole situation.
-We have been told that the Dawn-High Sun-Dusk portfolios are all interconnected. Only two can be present at one time, with that holder in power.
Can I cite source on this? I've read what people said, but never thought it came down from the top.
-It really opens up a can of worms...Not on the surface, but when thought is applied to the whole situation.
No. It doesn't open up a can of worms. It's actually a flaming pile of dog
that one is forced to step in, in order to put out.Can I cite source on this? I've read what people said, but never thought it came down from the top.
-If you want to brave the depths of Rich's Ask-the-Author thread, have fun. Me, I'm afraid to. It's in there somewhere, though. Mind you, this isn't something that someone randomly pulled from their ass. It's too crazy, if you ask me, which is why the designers...;)
No. It doesn't open up a can of worms. It's actually a flaming pile of dog
-Six of one thing, half dozen of another...
-If you want to brave the depths of Rich's Ask-the-Author thread, have fun. Me, I'm afraid to. It's in there somewhere, though. Mind you, this isn't something that someone randomly pulled from their ass. It's too crazy, if you ask me, which is why the designers...;)
What's with you trying to make me read the longest
threads possible? -Six of one thing, half dozen of another...
Still ends up as a dirty dozen.
Perhaps xmen510 was right and he really did have multiple personalities.
If Angharradh, Sehanine, Aerdrie, and Hanali all can have separate avatars during the Time of Troubles, I see nothing that prevents Myrkul and Lathander doing the same, even if they're actually aspects of a tripartite deity.
The difference being that this really is a case of multiple personalities. Or, more to the point, three goddesses with a multiple personality. They are truly, in effect, one and all.
I don't see this as the case with the Myrkul, Lathandar. Amaunator deal. Especially as Myrkul and Lathandar co-existed at the same time, when only one was supposed to be actually present.
Deities that are comprised of multiple aspects are a bit of a mystery in FR. The truth behind Angharradh, for example, ultimately lies in the hearts of her followers. She's somewhat controversial because only moon elves tend to worship her, while the other subraces view the three goddesses as separate entities. Sun elves in general aren't sure what to think of Angharradh and the others don't think about her at all.
Two aspects of the dawn-noon-dusk deity can be active at the same time.
I have yet to hear what Rich Baker said, but this still makes little sense to me--especially when you bring Myrkul into the mix. At least the whole Angharradh thing has these goddesses connected in personality to a degree.
From what I am reading, regardless of dawn, noon, dusk, or midnight, there should only be one aspect present. Else, Amaunator would have never succeeded Lathandar to begin with.
Again, only my perception of things.
Deities that are comprised of multiple aspects are a bit of a mystery in FR. The truth behind Angharradh, for example, ultimately lies in the hearts of her followers. She's somewhat controversial because only moon elves tend to worship her, while the other subraces view the three goddesses as separate entities. Sun elves in general aren't sure what to think of Angharradh and the others don't think about her at all.
Indeed. But there is precedence there. Not a rabbit out of the hat as this may be.
I have yet to hear what Rich Baker said, but this still makes little sense to me--especially when you bring Myrkul into the mix. At least the whole Angharradh thing has these goddesses connected in personality to a degree.
From what I am reading, regardless of dawn, noon, dusk, or midnight, there should only be one aspect present. Else, Amaunator would have never succeeded Lathandar to begin with.
Again, only my perception of things.
You can think of the tripartite sun deity as a triangle that revolves, and Faerûn looks at this triangle from one side only. As it turns, the world sees either two sides of it or just one. It's possible that we're only getting one side of the sun deity in 4e, Amaunator; Lathander the Dawn would've disappeared during the 100 years following the Spellplague. Next, we'd get Amaunator and the dusk aspect, followed by nothing but dusk (Shar? :P).
But I wiill have to wait a few more sessions to see how this will go...
You can think of the tripartite sun deity as a triangle that revolves, and Faerûn looks at this triangle from one side only. As it turns, the world sees either two sides of it or just one. It's possible that we're only getting one side of the sun deity in 4e, Amaunator; Lathander the Dawn would've disappeared during the 100 years following the Spellplague. Next, we'd get Amaunator and the dusk aspect, followed by nothing but dusk (Shar? :P).
I agree with this completely. Which is why I've metioned this before.
Though, if you are saying this, I don't get why you would also say this:
Two aspects of the dawn-noon-dusk deity can be active at the same time.
Shar would be night--assuming they actually stick with portfolios--and I would assume dusk, as well. If you want to get technical and stupid (not you, just the way things get played), then Kelemvor would have actually inherited Myrkul's portfolio, making him the god of dusk. Though, its not mentioned.
It simply doesn't make sense.
It's a tripartite deity, so it only has 3 aspects - midnight or night is not part of it.
Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't understand the problem.
It's a tripartite deity, so it only has 3 aspects - midnight or night is not part of it.
No. We all stupid at this point. No worries. ;)
If Angharradh, Sehanine, Aerdrie, and Hanali all can have separate avatars during the Time of Troubles, I see nothing that prevents Myrkul and Lathander doing the same, even if they're actually aspects of a tripartite deity.
-Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil had avatars during the Time of Troubles. They are all seperate deities. According to this new idea, Lathander, Amaunator, and Jergal/Myrkul are not seperate deities, and are all the same. They are the pupets being dangled by some more metaphysical "higher" sun deity. They are masks worn at different times by some more metaphysical "higher" sun deity.
Shar would be night--assuming they actually stick with portfolios--and I would assume dusk, as well. If you want to get technical and stupid (not you, just the way things get played), then Kelemvor would have actually inherited Myrkul's portfolio, making him the god of dusk. Though, its not mentioned.
It simply doesn't make sense.
-Shar isn't involved (though, it'd make sense to include her). Just the Sun deity, not the Night deity.
-Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil had avatars during the Time of Troubles. They are all seperate deities. According to this new idea, Lathander, Amaunator, and Jergal/Myrkul are not seperate deities, and are all the same. They are the pupets being dangled by some more metaphysical "higher" sun deity. They are masks worn at different times by some more metaphysical "higher" sun deity.
Actually, Angharradh is a little more complex than that, and I think the dawn-noon-dusk sun deity is a good parallel.
Sehanine, Aerdrie, and Hanali are all separate deities - or not. They are separate, but at the same time not. Like I said, it's a bit of a mystery, and the truth is ultimately decided by mortals individually.
The tripartite sun deity is similar because the three aspects act very differently from one another - in practice, they're different deities. However, their mystical origin is tied to the same source, but not as "puppets". They still retain their free will (as much as any deity has one) and just like the three elven goddesses, they represent different things while also being the three faces of one single divinity.
Again, if you're fine with the idea behind Angharradh and all the mystical weirdness she brings, there shouldn't be anything wrong with the tripartite sun deity.
The "beef" people have with Amaunator and Lathander being a tripartite deity, as far as I can tell, has to do with the "Dusk" aspect. It belonged to Myrkul. Myrkul was active around the same time as Lathander, which contradicts the statement (IIRC, of course) that one aspect of the deity "takes over" while the others lie dormant.
The "beef" people have with Amaunator and Lathander being a tripartite deity, as far as I can tell, has to do with the "Dusk" aspect. It belonged to Myrkul. Myrkul was active around the same time as Lathander, which contradicts the statement (IIRC, of course) that one aspect of the deity "takes over" while the others lie dormant.
Yep. The Dusk aspect has been held by both Myrkul and Jergal, who clearly aren't aspects of some greater sun deity. In addition, two sun aspects have coexisted before. Amaunator (Highsun) coexisted with Jergal (Dusk). And Myrkul (Dusk) coexisted with Lathander (Dawn). Apparently you can't have three at once, but you can have two at once.
Actually, Angharradh is a little more complex than that, and I think the dawn-noon-dusk sun deity is a good parallel.
Sehanine, Aerdrie, and Hanali are all separate deities - or not. They are separate, but at the same time not. Like I said, it's a bit of a mystery, and the truth is ultimately decided by mortals individually.
The tripartite sun deity is similar because the three aspects act very differently from one another - in practice, they're different deities. However, their mystical origin is tied to the same source, but not as "puppets". They still retain their free will (as much as any deity has one) and just like the three elven goddesses, they represent different things while also being the three faces of one single divinity.
Again, if you're fine with the idea behind Angharradh and all the mystical weirdness she brings, there shouldn't be anything wrong with the tripartite sun deity.
-Again, Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil are three deities who temporarily merged into one. The tripartite sun deity isn't three deities that merged into one. It is one deity that "shows" itself as three. Being as that there is only one entity, there should only be one avatar during the Time of Troubles, where as in the case with the Elven deities, there are three different entities.
Yep. The Dusk aspect has been held by both Myrkul and Jergal, who clearly aren't aspects of some greater sun deity. In addition, two sun aspects have coexisted before. Amaunator (Highsun) coexisted with Jergal (Dusk). And Myrkul (Dusk) coexisted with Lathander (Dawn). Apparently you can't have three at once, but you can have two at once.
-Jergal could theoretically be part of that higher sun entity, though his continued existence after giving away the 'Dusk' portfolio muddles this. Myrkul, though, couldn't, as he was a mortal before being a deity.
Why would dusk be part of an overarching sun portfolio, rather than something more analogous to 'morning' in relation to a night portfolio?
-Dawn, Noon and Dusk represent three "phases" of the sun. If one wanted to, the argument is certainly there that Dusk, Midnight and Dawn could be representative of three phases of the moon, or three phases of night.
-Dawn, Noon and Dusk represent three "phases" of the sun. If one wanted to, the argument is certainly there that Dusk, Midnight and Dawn could be representative of three phases of the moon, or three phases of night.
moon phases have nothing to do with where it is in the sky
moon phases have nothing to do with where it is in the sky
-Just sayin'. Don't jump down my throat.
Where'd you get that dusk as sun thing from, don't recall ever reading that anywhere? It doesn't really make much sense looking at the way the FRCS broke up the day.
-The Dawn, High Sun (Noon) and Dusk portfolios are all interconnected now. I never really gave it much tought before hand, but it does make sense, in terms of them being conncted in some form, and not the actual way it was pulled off (tripartite sun entity).
-Again, Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil are three deities who temporarily merged into one. The tripartite sun deity isn't three deities that merged into one. It is one deity that "shows" itself as three. Being as that there is only one entity, there should only be one avatar during the Time of Troubles, where as in the case with the Elven deities, there are three different entities.
You're simplifying Angharradh again.
She's not just the three goddesses temporarily merged into one - she is the three goddesses, all of them at once. And then she's not. There is no absolute truth because you can decide it for yourself.-Jergal could theoretically be part of that higher sun entity, though his continued existence after giving away the 'Dusk' portfolio muddles this. Myrkul, though, couldn't, as he was a mortal before being a deity.
The way I see it, you can become an aspect of the tripartite sun deity and even cease to be one later in your, eh, deific life. A bit like the three elven chicks; Angharradh formed after Aerdrie, Hanali, and Sehanine sprung into existence, not before them. Myrkul became an aspect of the sun deity when he got the dusk portfolio.
Apparently you can't have three at once, but you can have two at once.
Exactly.
You can have one aspect dominant, or two. Having all three active at the same time would be really extraordinary, a big omen of something or other fantasy stuff.You're simplifying Angharradh again.
-Angharradh is what she is. The three merged into one to heal Corellon Larethian, and we haven't witnessed her since.
The way I see it, you can become an aspect of the tripartite sun deity and even cease to be one later in your, eh, deific life...Myrkul became an aspect of the sun deity when he got the dusk portfolio.
-While this works, as I said it could, keep in mind, what "impact" does this have on Jergal? Even without the 'Dusk' portfolio, is he his own entity now? Was he ever his own entity? Now that Myrkul is dead, and the 'Dusk' portfolio freely floating around, what effect does this have on the higher sun entity? What happens if an independent adventurer claimed the portfolio for him/herself? Being elevated, now all three aspects of the sun entity are being represented at one time. What does this mean?
-Angharradh is what she is. The three merged into one to heal Corellon Larethian, and we haven't witnessed her since.
She's around. Or not. Whatever you decide.
Moon elves think she's ruling Arvandor together with Corellon.-While this works, as I said it could, keep in mind, what "impact" does this have on Jergal? Even without the 'Dusk' portfolio, is he his own entity now? Was he ever his own entity? Now that Myrkul is dead, and the 'Dusk' portfolio freely floating around, what effect does this have on the higher sun entity? What happens if an independent adventurer claimed the portfolio for him/herself? Being elevated, now all three aspects of the sun entity are being represented at one time. What does this mean?
It means whatever suits your campaign best, if you decide to use this as a part of your game.
It may not even be possible to claim the dusk portfolio while dawn and noon are active. Or maybe it is, and the consequences are dire.She's around. Or not. Whatever you decide.
-Of course, neither is an actual answer, as I am discussing (or attempting to) objective Faerûnian truth, not someone's campaign.
Alright. Took a quick look into this. In Faiths & Avatars, it specifically states that Amaunator is not Lathandar. Is this being ignored, or did something pop up to change this?
Looks like it's a retcon, pure and simple.
Looks like it's a retcon, pure and simple.
I want that word stricken from the record--pure and simple. And, while you are at it, get rid of pumpernickel. Makes no damn sense to me.
Either way, thus far, this "triune" bit has been stated, but not yet found within text--outside these boards, at least.
Why then, does it suddenly take prominence when there is nothing else there to back it?
I don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure it's in Power of Faerûn.
Figures! Damn, Mula--thanks alot!!
I guess I just don't see the problem where you see one.
-Obviously.
Alright. Took a quick look into this. In Faiths & Avatars, it specifically states that Amaunator is not Lathandar. Is this being ignored, or did something pop up to change this?
-...Ret-Con...
I don't have the book at hand, but I'm pretty sure it's in Power of Faerûn.
-This hypothesis is hinted at, based on the principles and write up of the Risen Sun heretics, but is not outright stated as fact. But, as if it didn't already need emphasizing, those who believed in the philosophies of the Risen Sun were heretics, in the minority, and were at odds against the mainstream Church of Lathander.
I want that word stricken from the record--pure and simple. And, while you are at it, get rid of pumpernickel. Makes no damn sense to me.
But pumpernickel is scrumptous
But pumpernickel is scrumptous
It may be scrumptious, but its still a silly word. :D
-This hypothesis is hinted at, based on the principles and write up of the Risen Sun heretics, but is not outright stated as fact. But, as if it didn't already need emphasizing, those who believed in the philosophies of the Risen Sun were heretics, in the minority, and were at odds against the mainstream Church of Lathander.
But Amaunator's replaced Lathander in 4e Realms. :P
But Amaunator's replaced Lathander in 4e Realms. :P
-Yes, yes he has. That doesn't mean that this entire process was grounded on "correct principles", as I have said to other people, on a different matter. For example, the Designers could, in 4e, make Drizzt an Avariel. No magic, no nothing, he just woke up one day, and was an Avariel. And, from that point on, he'll always be an Avariel. While this is all true and canon, it doesn't mean that the transformation was based on factors and details that were correct.
Lathander becoming Amaunator has a basis in 3e lore. Apparently, the designers simply ran with the tripartite sun deity idea.
A lousy comparison.
Lathander becoming Amaunator has a basis in 3e lore. Apparently, the designers simply ran with the tripartite sun deity idea.
-There is no basis. There are allusions to, that are negated with a look of existing information.
Yes, allusions - the idea was first presented in 3e, it's not something completely and utterly new to 4e Realms. Since Amaunator has replaced Lathander in 4e Realms, it is obvious the designers decided that the tripartite sun deity is a fact. Yes, a retcon.
-Yes, one based on "bad lore". As I said before, I am not challenging that it is canon or not. It is what it is, and it's obviously in there. That it is canon, however, doesn't change the fact that the premise behind the changes were "wrong", "incorrect", "bad", choose your word.
After looking at "Netheril: Empire of Magic" (in the free down load section) it states that Amaunator LN follows the law if not the spirt behind it, much less the crusader than Lathander. Jergal, a sometimes friend of Amaunator, may have taken some of the reserve the sun god showed and passed it on to the evil triad. This "deal", so to speak, could be part of or the start of the dawn crisis and could explain why it exist out of normal realms time.
Now with the destruction of Murkel that taint has return to Lathander slowly turning him back into Amaunator and creating the Rising Sun Heresy. The actoins of the paladin in the Cale novels may even show this taint spreading to to the clergy of the sun god which ever name he is currently using.
Of course this is just my speculation.
Wouldn't Cyric be the logical 'new' holder of the Dusk portfolio?
He did hold it for at least a time, considering he took Myrkul's portfolio at the end of the ToT.
And, in my mind, for the darker part of a three part sun deity, the Dark Sun is preferable to Kelemvor, or whoever holds it now (I'm not sure).
But then, that would bring new headaches into the mix.
...
Meh, this all feels under planned. In my humble opinion.
If I may venture a quick observation/query...
Wouldn't Cyric be the logical 'new' holder of the Dusk portfolio?
-It's an unclaimed portfolio. Faiths and Pantheons doesn't list Cyric as having it, or anyone else. We know it exists, so, it's "floating" there, somewhere...
He did hold it for at least a time, considering he took Myrkul's portfolio at the end of the ToT.
Cyric actually never held the Portfolio of Dusk. And nobody's picked it up since Myrkul's death.
Cyric actually never held the Portfolio of Dusk. And nobody's picked it up since Myrkul's death.
Thanks. Now some genius can jump in and say, "Well, then Lathandar picked it back up when he turned into Amaunator!"
Thanks. Now some genius can jump in and say, "Well, then Lathandar picked it back up when he turned into Amaunator!"
Heh! There is an interesting precedent, in that (the first?) Amaunator let his portfolio of "time" be directed by Mystryl/Mystra1.
Although, what does that say about a god who is supposed to be the deity of laws and contracts? If Amaunator was (in a sense?) "contracted" by AO to hold a particular portfolio, why was he so blase about letting another deity oversee it? Wouldn't that go against his primary function or portfolio, so to speak?
But eh, maybe Amaunator lets his porfolios get managed by others all the time, who knows? Could explain the "dusk" portfolio in some ways. ;)
I don't think anyone can pick up the portfolio of dusk until it's supposed to become one of the active aspects of the sun deity.
But you are stuck on this sun deity thing, so, yes, I would imagine this would fit nicely for you. ;)
Heh! There is an interesting precedent, in that (the first?) Amaunator let his portfolio of "time" be directed by Mystryl/Mystra1.
Although, what does that say about a god who is supposed to be the deity of laws and contracts? If Amaunator was (in a sense?) "contracted" by AO to hold a particular portfolio, why was he so blase about letting another deity oversee it? Wouldn't that go against his primary function or portfolio, so to speak?
But eh, maybe Amaunator lets his porfolios get managed by others all the time, who knows? Could explain the "dusk" portfolio in some ways. ;)
From what I understand, he really never cared for either the time or law thing and that they were somewhat a burden to him. More so, imposed on him by his followers. I heard no such thing of AO being involved in the matter.
I don't think anyone can pick up the portfolio of dusk until it's supposed to become one of the active aspects of the sun deity.
-Precident has shown that there have been two faces of the sun at one time. I believe GK coined the "Dual-Faced Sun Theory", or something to that effect. Jergal existed with Amaunator in the Netherese Pantheon...Dusk and High Sun. Myrkul existed with Lathander in the "Faerûnian" Pantheon...Dusk and Dawn. In order to arrive at the logical concluson here, either someone needs to pick up the Dusk portfolio, or someone needs to pick up the Dawn portfolio.
But it's also possible that only one aspect is active at times. We've only had dawn during 3e Realms, after all. During the 100 years after the Spellplague, both dawn and noon were probably active (Lathander becoming Amaunator), until only noon remains or remained. We could see a dusk aspect in 4e Realms.
-Was there a list of deities who were confirmed in the FRCS? I don't remember or not. If so, anyone seem to be a good candidate for 'Dusk'?
He's advised in the past that events and perspectives from the 'mortal' point of view are not sufficient to determine with any level of accuracy what goes on in the higher planes of existence.
This is why in part there was no good reason to try and pin down when the Dawn Cataclysm happened (though many have tried over the years).
The idea that the notion of a tri-partite deity is based on ‘wrong’ lore is flawed, simply because that lore was tenuous to begin with.
If so, anyone seem to be a good candidate for 'Dusk'?
Myrkul. Then again, I'm biased.
Myrkul. Then again, I'm biased.
For me, Bhaal would have been the best to hold the portfolio of dusk. He was the god of assassins and murderers. The sun is definitely setting for anyone who has one of them on your ass.
Myrkul. Then again, I'm biased.
For me, Bhaal would have been the best to hold the portfolio of dusk. He was the god of assassins and murderers. The sun is definitely setting for anyone who has one of them on your ass.
-Neither are...you know...Alive.
-Neither are...you know...Alive.
Hence the use of the word "would."
Besides, haven't you ever heard of the Bhaalspawn?
He be back, baby!
Besides, haven't you ever heard of the Bhaalspawn?
He be back, baby!
-Yeah, look how good that entire debacle went over, for Bhaal.
-Yeah, look how good that entire debacle went over, for Bhaal.
So?
You seen how wicked and evil Bhaalspawn can be?
I wish I could be so wicked. As is, all I can do is wait for my finger nails to grow for a few weeks and go, "Grrr...."
Not so wicked, I have to say.
Eat a few live kittens, that's always good for a few points of evil...
I hope Rhee doesn't see that
-Neither are...you know...Alive.
Since when is that detrimental? I want the Dead Two back!
Since when is that detrimental? I want the Dead Two back!
-I'm a testament to that kind of mentality. But, it certainly makes things more...difficult.
Feh, I care not. There needs to be more sick and twisted illustrations/photos of atrocities being committed against kittens really... annoying little snacks that they are.
Haven't done any Asian dining lately, huh? The human beef is especially tasty.
-I'm a testament to that kind of mentality. But, it certainly makes things more...difficult.
And which part of this transition hasn't been?
I hope Rhee doesn't see that
I just did.
I just did.
Well, he did have a good point.
Well, he did have a good point.
but Rhee loves her kitties
And I care why? It has no bearing on my world and happiness... besides, cats just but me on principle. :P
As do most things. A jelly bean could look at you the wrong way and you'd curb stomp it.
As do most things. A jelly bean could look at you the wrong way and you'd curb stomp it.
Most things bite Stigger on principle, not just cats?
Most things bite Stigger on principle, not just cats?
Is that a question or an answer?
And I care why? It has no bearing on my world and happiness... besides, cats just but me on principle. :P
Cats just "but" you?
LOL
Cats just "but" you?
LOL
I think he meant to type "bite"... but now I'm not certain. It's a quandry, in more ways than one!
I think he meant to type "bite"... but now I'm not certain. It's a quandry, in more ways than one!
And he very well meant "bug."
Curbstomping factories are running full steam as the second printing ritual is nearly completed.
JD got it right... they bug me endlessly. Stupid typos... and yes, I do curb-stomp jellybeans when they look at me funny.
Aw, that's too bad. It seems a lot funnier if kittens actively seek you out just to bite you as a general principle. Too much catnip on your hands, maybe. ;)
lawyers are always excellent kickboxers
And, thus, the lawyer states his case for his "kicky little boxers." :D
-So, do Lathander and/or Amaunator have any part to play in this discussion anymore?
I'm going to miss Lathander a bit but its no real big deal to me