Shou Lung is (arguably) the most powerful nation on Toril. Would it be able to take T'u Lung?
T'u Lung could probably field an army of equal size (the south has a FAR greater population density then the north), but that would require all the provinces working together in unison, under a central commander - something I just don't see happening given T'u Lung's political structure.
If T'u Lung DID manage to pull it's #$%* together and field a decent army - one able to follow a single high commander - it would have a slight edge in magic. Whereas the Shou tend to avoid formally acknowledging the Arcane Arts (they just don't talk about it in polite company), the T'u have no problem using it in front of people, and even having Wujen in their armies (something the Shou tend to avoid usually - they get the occassional helping hand from a single caster, but they have no organized 'war Wizards' as such - magic is just seen as sort of obscene to them, like talking about bodily functions - its a neccessary part of life but people just pretend it isn't really there).
The Shou do have an organized force of Warpriests, though, but they are used primarily for healing, blessing, and 'reading omens'.
Although I could see the Shou attempting some sort of "bold stroke", perhaps a seaborne invasion to take the Tu capital and avoid the problems with the border cities and forts. Not that I think that would work too well in a state as decentralised as Tu Lung, but the Shou might project their own organisation and believe that it could work.
Although Shou did have some initial success at taking back parts of T'u Lung toward the end of 3e, the Spellplague caused a massive explosion in the capital, killing all (maybe) of the Imperial Family and sending the country into chaos for a time, allowing T'u Lung to re-unify and take back Joi Chang.
They were able re-unify, because a mysterious figure emerged from the distant past and brought the warring factions together, and so powerful was he that he was able to also take Shou Lung over as well, within a decade of him coming to power.
Mostly because he himself had a VERY old claim to the throne...
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric!!!) :evillaugh
Then again, if I look to the current U.S.-lead coalition in Iraq, then that might give me partial answer.
The emperor of Shou Lung is very intelligent man with plenty of very intelligent advisors, and they have figured out the best way to get T'u back into the fold would be to just let it's own people get sick of them (which they are), and then allow the cities and villages to re-join with Shou one at a time (like what happened when those Amnian towns joined Tethyr). They are using goodwill, rather then might, up until 1375 DR (sending in priests with supplies to beleagured regions an those devasted by storms and earthquakes - that sort of thing). In fact, they are using the same tactics in several other places, like with Kozakura (offering the Emperor aid against his own Shogunate).
Mad Monkey Say: You catch more flies with honey then with vinegar. ;)
Beating an enemy and having it's people hate you is a stupid way to fight wars.
Beating your enemy to 'liberate' it's peole is just plain savy... hmmmm... why does that sound so familiar?
Anyhow, If I ever get around to doing a 4e update on the K-T project, I'm going to have it where T'u Lung beats Shou instead... just beause it's the unexpected thing to happen. The south has a denser population, and with the right leadership (which I intend) it could work. Logic is all well and good, but this is still a game setting and surprises are always fun.
WITHIN REASON, mind you....
You know, I've been reading the PDF of Kara-Tur: Eastern Realms for a while now, and I can come to this conclusion: why hasn't Shou Lung pwned T'u Lung yet? T'u Lung is a disorganized, fractured country wheras Shou Lung is arguably Toril's biggest and most powerful country.
Then again, if I look to the current U.S.-lead coalition in Iraq, then that might give me partial answer.
T'u Lung is disorganized--but that's in many ways a benefit for a nation on the defense. Shou Lung can win battle after battle if it invades, kill/capture/co-opt ruler after ruler, but still the T'u Lung will be able to fight back. The Shou might even be able to conquer almost the whole of the country, but the occupation would probably be extremely costly and difficult.
btw, the Shou were shown in the Empires Trilogy to be almost totally bereft of any competent military leadership. Might explain why the T'u have continued to remain separate.
btw, the Shou were shown in the Empires Trilogy to be almost totally bereft of any competent military leadership. Might explain why the T'u have continued to remain separate.
-Mind you, since then, I would have hoped that the Emperor learned his lesson, and changed things a bit.
Its not that his generals were morons, it was the Shou way of thinking - their empire was so ANCIENT and had seen so much during its time in existance that it fell back on teachings of the past for EVERYTHING. Basically, the generals HAD TO follow the Book of War, which had worked for them time and again for thousands of years.
They were so steeped in tradition, they couldn't have had a new idea if it slapped them upside their head.
Batu realized this, and that their time-honored tactics were useless against this new horde, and that is why he prevailed (for the most part).
The lesson that Shou learned - the hard way - was that sometimes tradition gets in the way of common sense. If something isn't working, DON'T keep doing it!
Mad Monkey Say: "Man who follows same path everyday make easy target for tigers"
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Seriously, D-man, I'm not understanding you very well tonight.
What is?
Seriously, D-man, I'm not understanding you very well tonight.
-Just re-read your post before mine and put it in the context of the 4E Realms. Not wanting to change yet ultimately having to change. Just a thought.
-Crazy Cyric saying: "Spellplague is the Tiger" :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
Batu realized this, and that their time-honored tactics were useless against this new horde, and that is why he prevailed (for the most part).
-Ultimatley, that did him little good.
Thus, there was no successful general to force reforms through the Shou Empire.
The sheer resources available to the Shou (and to their real world analogue), allow them to not be as "on the ball" as their neighbors.
"If the Shou fits..."
Damn... now I'm making as little sense as Delta (who seems hell-bent on baiting everyone to get themselves in trouble with WotC).
Stop trying to start flame-wars in every thread - you're motives are as transparent as a Shade's underwear.
Stop trying to start flame-wars in every thread - you're motives are as transparent as a Shade's underwear.
-I am not trying to bait anyone on this thread or most threads....:P
Thats the idea.
Its not that his generals were morons, it was the Shou way of thinking - their empire was so ANCIENT and had seen so much during its time in existance that it fell back on teachings of the past for EVERYTHING. Basically, the generals HAD TO follow the Book of War, which had worked for them time and again for thousands of years.
They were so steeped in tradition, they couldn't have had a new idea if it slapped them upside their head.
Batu realized this, and that their time-honored tactics were useless against this new horde, and that is why he prevailed (for the most part).
The lesson that Shou learned - the hard way - was that sometimes tradition gets in the way of common sense. If something isn't working, DON'T keep doing it!
Mad Monkey Say: "Man who follows same path everyday make easy target for tigers"
-My whole point earlier was that maybe WotC was like the Empire that always did things a certain way and the realized that the way they were doing it was wrong? Thus they changed, because ultimately this change is about money, lower overhead=more profits. With only 3 books produced now the Realms has no more overhead to take up for Wizards. Now it's DDI=lower overhead, The Living Realms, and the Novels. Eberron will be the same way. Now Wizards overhead will be about producing Core Rule Books, and not spending money on side projects. We the fans just assumed it would be bussiness as usual. Hence my Crazy Cyric saying The Spellplague is the Tiger. :P
-I go commando! So yeah I guess I have transparent undies :P
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Not that these boards ever stay on topic, but you seem to be beating certain things to death - it's like 'getting poked with a stick' to a lot of us, and it gets annoying.
We are all getting along - for the most part - lately, and I don't want to see anymore 'them' vs. 'us' wars breaking out in every thread. I find that when its not brought up, people tend to be nicer to each other.
all I'm sayin'....
Peace --- Mark
When you are a giant, you can afford to be a little less bright.
The sheer resources available to the Shou (and to their real world analogue), allow them to not be as "on the ball" as their neighbors.
-That is true. But, the Tuigan Horde opened their eyes, and I would hope that they did something about it, as opposed to just closing their eyes again.
I would think that T'u Lung would be heavily affected by the Spellplague, considering it has a lot of magic-users and areas where arcane power was rampant.
-That was supposed to protect them. Remember, the Spellplague is/was supposed to bypass places with large concentrations of magic, like cities with Mythals. That didn't help Halruaa, but...
Of course, that's a load of garbage, which is why I spin it differently -
The Spell-Plague was only destructive to Weave-based magics, and Halruaa was HEAVILY Weave-based. Not all magics were, however - Elves, for example, were casting awe-inspiring spells before they ever reached Toril! Elven High Magic comes from traditions older then the Weave, and taps into THE source directly (as does epic and certain others).
Ergo, the Elven Mythals, clad in their Elven High magic, were immune for the most part to the Weave's destruction (as was the City of Shade, being based on the Shadoweave).
At least that's how I'm seeing it - I don't like the idea that the Spellplague just randomly destroyed what certain designers didn't like - I prefer more logical reasons for things.
It was attracted to magic (from all accounts), but was forced to bypass certain areas that conntained strong fields of protective magic.
Of course, that's a load of garbage, which is why I spin it differently -
The Spell-Plague was only destructive to Weave-based magics, and Halruaa was HEAVILY Weave-based. Not all magics were, however - Elves, for example, were casting awe-inspiring spells before they ever reached Toril! Elven High Magic comes from traditions older then the Weave, and taps into THE source directly (as does epic and certain others).
Ergo, the Elven Mythals, clad in their Elven High magic, were immune for the most part to the Weave's destruction (as was the City of Shade, being based on the Shadoweave).
At least that's how I'm seeing it - I don't like the idea that the Spellplague just randomly destroyed what certain designers didn't like - I prefer more logical reasons for things.
-Thinking in 3e terms, Epic Magic tapped into the Weave, borrowing power from the user and the source of magic (the Weave). Everything tapped into the Weave, more or less, which is why I disliked it/Mystra so.
It was all propaganda by the Church of Mystra.
Mystra was NOT the end-all, be-all of magic (Shar sure proved that), but she sure as hell wanted everyone to think she was. After all, Shar and Selune were flinging magic at each other before Mystra was even born, and canonically the Weave was just some sort of interface between mortals and 'pure' magic.
Supposedly, 'Pure' magic was too potent for mortals, so Mystra gave them her Weave... with her rules. Sure it was easier... but that was the whole point. While it did in fact make certain types of magic simpler for mortals to cast, it also impressed a set of rules upon magic... rules Pure (Raw) magic did not have.
By spinning the whole thing my way, we see Mystra in a new light - almost like a magical 'Tyrant', if you will. I'm not saying she was evil, but she did want to be in-charge of all magic, and what better way to do that then to give away something simple and easy to use (think Bill Gates and Microsoft Windows here). By controlling what most folks use, she also gets to control all that wroship pouring her way - pretty clever, if you ask me.
I think the original Mystryl was more devious, and her first(?) reincarnation was a lot like her, but Midnight was different, and thats why she was moving her church away from the whole 'control' aspect and turning into more of a 'helping' aspect (which is reflected by her leaning toward 'good').
Think about it - The way to become the Magister was to KILL the former Magister - does that sound like a benevolent god to you... or a tyrant?
"You keep what you kill... Its the Necromunger way" ;)
Think about it - The way to become the Magister was to KILL the former Magister - does that sound like a benevolent god to you... or a tyrant?
-Neither, I don't think. When a prince kills his father, he becomes the new king. The system itself isn't inherently evil because the prince is rewarded for what could be in theory a bad thing*. When a bird of prey kills another bird, it isn't evil for doing that. It just is. When a plant that is not native to an area begins "taking the place over", it isn't evil for doing that. It just is.
*Getting into philosophy, killing the king could have in theory been a good thing, ethically and morally.
-How would you arrange for the transfer of Magisterhood? And, there have been "peaceful" transfers of power, in the past, don't forget.
Also, other regions had their own gods of Magic as well, so Mystra certainly wasn't the 'all powerful' goddess of magic she lead Faerûnians to believe. What she WAS was THE goddess of WEAVE magic, and her priesthood promoted the idea that Weave Magic was the only game in town (which we now lore-wise isn't true).
ALL gods will promote their own porfolio above all else just to become more powerful - even the good ones - and even if she wasn't neccessarily evil, she was much more self-serving then she lets on (in the Elminster novels, you can see how cruel and uncaring she can be when she wants something done her way, and she's very manipulative).
In fact, I don't think its an easy call to say any deity is good or evil, if what they are doing is part of their portfolio. When 'God' (Ao) gives you a job to do, you do it - gods are really morally ambiguous. Even Lucifer was an Angel with a task before he fell. ;)
The Spellplague was nothing more then the weave unravelling across the land, and anything reliant on Weave-based magics was destroyed - often violently.
Of course, that means Myth Drannor should have blown-up as well, since it was not an Elven Mythal, it was an Arcane Mythal, but whatever... I get a headache trying to workout all these 'something'-powered cities from one another.
Which is more then the official version - "everything WE didn't like blew-up".
Besides, since magic changed after the Spellplague, and its seems every farmer with a pitchfork can weild it (;) ), I figure Mystra/Mystryl was actual using it as a controling mechanism. Given that folks in other spheres never needed a 'Weave', and Faerûnian casters didn't need it outside of Realmspace, it stands to reason that the Weave was an artificial construct created by Mystra to further her own ends (which ALL gods do, regardless of Alignmnent).
Almost like a 'tracking device', perhaps, the way the 'Feds' can track people through their 'paper trail'. She knew everything that was going on magically everywhere... as long as the casters were using HER Weave. Thats certainly NOT how Ed painted it, but then again, Ed didn't even use Mystra - he had Larue...
So what does HE know? :P
18DELTA :cheer
Chosen of Cyric)
He's just more 'relentless' then most. :D
And he's right about me making up stuff... I do it all the time. It is a fantasy setting, after all, and I like to have my own little fantasies as well - why should the 'official types' have all the fun?
Well, yeah... its just a 'patch-job', but at least I put a little bit of thought into it...
Which is more then the official version - "everything WE didn't like blew-up".
-While I often needle you for making things up, it is not for a lack of thought, foresight, or ability that you put into it.
Besides, since magic changed after the Spellplague, and its seems every farmer with a pitchfork can weild it (;) ), I figure Mystra/Mystryl was actual using it as a controling mechanism. Given that folks in other spheres never needed a 'Weave', and Faerûnian casters didn't need it outside of Realmspace, it stands to reason that the Weave was an artificial construct created by Mystra to further her own ends (which ALL gods do, regardless of Alignmnent).
-Liken this to calendars: Go to Israel, and it's the year 5769. Come back to the U.S., and it's 2008. Go back, and it's 5769 again. Are you time traveling? No. Time is passing normally, if you are in Israel, or in the U.S. All that is changing is the calendar that is being used where you are, which "changes" automatically. Maybe timezones work as a better example. But, I am sure you are understanding the underlying theme I am getting at. Applying this reasoning, individuals can grow up using only the Weave, leave and operate elsewhere, where different laws of reality exist, return and operate where they have always operated, and not have anything physically tangible changing.
Almost like a 'tracking device', perhaps, the way the 'Feds' can track people through their 'paper trail'. She knew everything that was going on magically everywhere... as long as the casters were using HER Weave. Thats certainly NOT how Ed painted it, but then again, Ed didn't even use Mystra - he had Larue...
-In the sense that, it's her toy, and you pay to play, sure. Another unnecessary tidbit that causes me to loath Mystra, though the alternate would make less sense (her being unaware of those using magic). Parasites living on you, when they do stuff, you're aware. Likewise, when mortals utilize magic (in the sense that them drawing on the Weave is parasitic, to a degree), she is aware of it. Thus, the reason why I'd rather have Mystra as a wholly neutral entity, as the caretaker of the Weave, rather than the Weave itself, or the Weave itself, but a non-sentient entity (or alien enough to the mind of mortals).
So what does HE know? :P
-Not enough, and more than he'll ever let on to...
Can you imagine what will happen when he does pass? All that unpublished-lore floating around inside his head, just gone forever?
Only he's like me, magnified a thousand fold.
So yeah, he may make-up NPCs on the spot, but I think he has a very good idea about how his world works.
And people say that the Far Realms has no place in the Realms! 18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Are you saying that the Far Realms are located inside Ed's head?
-Not particularly, no. The original concept came from somewhere, though. Someone's head.
A united (and organized) T'u Lung is EXTREMELY dangerous. Their potential is enormous; they have better natural resources and agricultural infracture, and magic is more prevalent there (the Shou keep close tabs on their Wu Jen, whereas the T'u just leave them be).
For Shou to win, they would have to 'divide and conquer', and for T'u to win, they would just have to get their act together. Fortunatly for Shou Lung, the majority of T'u leaders are corrupt despots and won't take orders from the others.
By the same token, Wa can actually field a MASSIVE army (800,000+ according to the sources!). Once again, though, they are troubled by internal struggles, as is Kozakura, so no one warlord can make a move without worrying about others marching into his province while he is on campaign elsewhere.
This is why we have such detente' in the east. If Shou does nothing, it's enemies remain fractured and weak. If they go to war, it's enemies will unite behind a common goal, and it is conceivable Shou could lose.
So Shou Lung sits... and waits...
-Then Tabot will be given some respect.
BTW... that thought IS growing on me... any ideas?
I'm thinking we could put it off until the end, maybe as a direct result of the Spellplague (or rather, the fact that it completely flowed around Tabot).
I hate changing canon, but technically that name hasn't been used in an official product since 1357 DR, IIRC.
Maybe something like Ta'Kao (all the other people of Kao lineage seem to use a 'K' or even a 'Kha' in their names). The name of the RW nation comes from ancient turkic - Töbän, and isn't what Tibetans call their country.
They call it Bod, which is where both Bhutan and Phutan are derived from, so thats out as well.
EDIT: Ooops... wrong thread. :embarrass
For example, assuming Tabotans speak Korean, because I'm not at all familiar with Tibetan, Tabot => Taebok. That means roughly 'foot clothes', possibly 'socks', but you get the idea. :embarrass
Back on topic, Koryo probably won't be getting involved in any wars, having just fixed up their country after the Sillan tyrant was deposed, and they have a strong defensive focus anyway.
First they need to change their name. :P
BTW... that thought IS growing on me... any ideas?
I'm thinking we could put it off until the end, maybe as a direct result of the Spellplague (or rather, the fact that it completely flowed around Tabot).
I hate changing canon, but technically that name hasn't been used in an official product since 1357 DR, IIRC.
Maybe something like Ta'Kao (all the other people of Kao lineage seem to use a 'K' or even a 'Kha' in their names). The name of the RW nation comes from ancient turkic - Töbän, and isn't what Tibetans call their country.
They call it Bod, which is where both Bhutan and Phutan are derived from, so thats out as well.
EDIT: Ooops... wrong thread. :embarrass
-I was thinking about something to that effect, all the way at the beginning. I didn't want to change the canon though- it's Tabot in the books, at the end of the day- so I didn't do anything. Since then, it's grown on me, and I don't find it that bad anymore.