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Hrm... the FRCG really is half a book

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
The_Jester
Aug 21, 2008 17:19:24 This post is likely old news but it caught me off guard.

I've been reading through it at work at nights, bouncing between sections. And I started wondering about halflings and gnomes.
Are halflings the hobbit shire-folk or 2e or the kender or 4e? So I scan the book and only find scattered references to halflings although their main shire seems to have been a casualty. No references to their lifestyle in the Realms, if they're river folk, etc.

Ditto the gnomes. Although I'm sure gnomes had a nation back in the day I can't find any references now. And gnomish lifestyle is entirely lacking.

I'm sure this will be in the Player's Guide but it really doesn't help the DM much when there's no real lifestyle information. Or even demographics. I'm unsure which nations have lots of halflings and gnomes, and which ones are little-people scarce.

The more I think about it the more it nags me that there is no "people of the Realms" or "Life in the Realms" section and that the DM will have to entirely rely on a player book to actually describe the world and bring it to life.
#2
aseran
Aug 21, 2008 17:22:31 It's completely true. As much as I otherwise love this book, there really should have been a disclaimer. All the crunch/toys for players is in the next one. This is the DM/fanboy tome.
#3
Iluvrien
Aug 21, 2008 17:25:44
It's completely true. As much as I otherwise love this book, there really should have been a disclaimer. All the crunch/toys for players is in the next one. This is the DM/fanboy tome.

Personally I wouldn't consider "People of the Realms" or especially a "Life in the Realms" section to be very crunchy. Possibly with a player based leaning in the latter case but that is more "How you can live" rather than "How people do live". I would have really liked to see these sections.
#4
aseran
Aug 21, 2008 17:33:53
Personally I wouldn't consider "People of the Realms" or especially a "Life in the Realms" section to be very crunchy. Possibly with a player based leaning in the latter case but that is more "How you can live" rather than "How people do live". I would have really liked to see these sections.

Not crunch, maybe, but still falls sort of in the category of "player toys", as it were. Tricky thing is here is a DM can also benefit from that as much as anyone.

On one hand, I'm glad that they've split it into two books; it gives them a lot more elbow room and a chance to elaborate where they need to. On the other hand; it's not like they COULDN'T have trimmed off bits here and there, saving them for future products.
#5
lord_karsus
Aug 21, 2008 19:02:06 -Well, one half if the FRCG, and the other half is the FRPG. A handy trick.
#6
unfamiliar
Aug 21, 2008 20:25:21 I'm betting next month we'll see similar threads from the opposite side when the FRPG is as much of a disappointment for fluff lovers (OK, that just sounds dirty, but what can I do?) who are gonna be looking for more history & Realmslore, instead of a bunch of crunchy character options. But with only two main rulebooks to publish for each campaign setting, perhaps they're simply choosing to give each group what they want, instead of offering up one big jumbled-up book.
#7
aseran
Aug 21, 2008 20:29:02 I'm assuming, though, that they're not planning on stopping at two rulebooks for campaign setting, correct?

Or at least, I hope that's not the case. Two per setting would be really, really underwhelming.
#8
barthalas
Aug 21, 2008 20:50:07
I'm assuming, though, that they're not planning on stopping at two rulebooks for campaign setting, correct?

Or at least, I hope that's not the case. Two per setting would be really, really underwhelming.

I believe what they have said is that only two per setting is the plan but they MAY release other books if they feel the market warrants it but they currently have no plans for any specific book. Their plan for fleshing out the settings (Realms, Eberron, etc...) is through DDI articles and novels.
#9
lord_karsus
Aug 21, 2008 21:37:20
I'm assuming, though, that they're not planning on stopping at two rulebooks for campaign setting, correct?

Or at least, I hope that's not the case. Two per setting would be really, really underwhelming.

-The plan is to release two sourcebooks and an adventure (The Shackled Tower of Spellgard, I believe is the title). Additional information will be included in novels, online DRAGON articles, and the DDI.
#10
aseran
Aug 21, 2008 23:14:21 Ow.
#11
Belorin
Aug 21, 2008 23:21:40 Read the two Elfharrow previews, the CG and the PG, they compliment each other quite well.

Bel
#12
serphet
Aug 21, 2008 23:26:26 the other CS books didn't sell well enough, things like 'the shining south' and so on. So what they are going to do instead is release articles in Dragon about this sor tof stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to see a monthly FR and a monthly EB article column appear soon.
#13
markustay63
Aug 21, 2008 23:26:27 Well, considering the Core rules won't be finished until next year, it kinda makes sense they couldn't finish a setting book in one shot anymore either.
#14
serphet
Aug 21, 2008 23:28:59
Well, considering the Core rules won't be finished until next year.

this aa reference to the PHB2? b/c that isn't going to be the last one, there will be a PHB, a DMG, and a MM every year till 5E
#15
markustay63
Aug 21, 2008 23:30:55 Yes, but the core classes of Bard and Monk will be available then, so until that comes out, I don't consider the rules finished.

Also, they said they specifically left out any 'mind powers' from the arcane casters to make Psionics more unique. This is the first edition built from the start with psionics in mind.

Ergo, until we get those missing 'mental powers', the rules aren't complete for that reason either.

You know, if this truly is half a book, I have half a mind to buy it. :P
#16
protonik_dup
Aug 21, 2008 23:32:54
It's completely true. As much as I otherwise love this book, there really should have been a disclaimer. All the crunch/toys for players is in the next one. This is the DM/fanboy tome.

I thought it was prettly blatant that the Campaign guide was a DM's book and the Character Guide was the crunchy book... just by the titles and the fact that WOTC talked about the crunchy stuff in reference to the Character book I gathered that...
#17
protonik_dup
Aug 21, 2008 23:35:45
Well, considering the Core rules won't be finished until next year, it kinda makes sense they couldn't finish a setting book in one shot anymore either.

The core rules are finished... you do know that the 3e PHBII and DMGII and the various Monster Manuals in 3e were all listed and sold as core rules right? The future books are, much like the previous edition, ADDITIONS to the core rules that you can take or leave. The whole 4e is incomplete or missing fundamentals arguement is baseless.
#18
hippokrene
Aug 21, 2008 23:51:11 The book as-is, has 300 pages. While taking the first 36 pages out would be a fabulous idea, I think focusing the book purely on a broad overview of the world is the way to go.
#19
serphet
Aug 21, 2008 23:55:58 loudwater isn't that bad really, I just like the nenthir vale in the DMG, except with more adventure aids.
#20
markustay63
Aug 22, 2008 0:02:43
The core rules are finished... you do know that the 3e PHBII and DMGII and the various Monster Manuals in 3e were all listed and sold as core rules right? The future books are, much like the previous edition, ADDITIONS to the core rules that you can take or leave. The whole 4e is incomplete or missing fundamentals arguement is baseless.

Gotcha...

So what you are saying is that with each new edition they release, we should expect less then what we got in previous editions.

It all makes sense now.

So, will 5e just have the fighter in the PHB?

;) :P
#21
hippokrene
Aug 22, 2008 0:07:39 Serphet,

Entire nations get 2 pages while the Barrow of the Orge King gets 6. I'm not saying it's 'bad.' I'm saying it's a poor use of the space in the book. How about picking 6 cities and giving them a page long write up? Or 6 important figures in the Realms? Or 6 powerful orginizations? Or 6 active gods?

The Realms are huge, and if you're trying to fit everything into 300 pages, you don't spend 36 detailing a single, small town, a lackluster adventure, and a dungeon.
#22
ORC_Yawgmoth
Aug 22, 2008 1:50:07 Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
#23
serphet
Aug 22, 2008 1:53:10 Hmm I guess I'll agree to that, the loudwater bits would have made a good web enhancement/DDI article (though people would moan about it wsating an aritcle space, though it would have een a good kick off for a FR column)
#24
Another_Gnome
Aug 22, 2008 2:07:18 Let's not forget that FRCS had 2 short adventures taking up 10 pages, and roughly 50 pages of crunch, leaving about 240 pages for lore. Admittably I haven't yet seen the layout of the FRCG so I can't tell how much space actually is spent on fluff per page, but to hazard a guess the overall numbers can't differ so dramatically between CS and CG as to warrant calling the latter only half a book.

Okay, that's what it's supposed to be, but still...
#25
hippokrene
Aug 22, 2008 2:26:48
Let's not forget that FRCS had 2 short adventures taking up 10 pages, and roughly 50 pages of crunch, leaving about 240 pages for lore.

If you make a mistake twice, it's still a mistake. ;)

I actually have this problem with many RPG books; I think books should have a purpose and things that distract from that purpose are bad. I remember an (old) World of Darkness Vampire suppliment that was 60 pages, the first 15 pages was a story but there was no index in the back.
#26
Another_Gnome
Aug 23, 2008 3:22:00
If you make a mistake twice, it's still a mistake.

Oh, I definitely agree... I never bother with premade adventures, and having those waste up space in otherwise useful sourcebooks is a real bother. Fleshed-out starting locations are less of an issue, but unless they assume every single buyer starts their campaign there (which no doubt they don't) it does carry with it something of a bitter taste to pay for it.
#27
azi
Aug 23, 2008 10:57:40 On the other hand, as someone who is just coming back to the setting as well as to D&D in general after 10ish years away, I found the chapter on Loudwater very helpful as a 'quick start guide'.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 The_Jester Aug 21, 2008 17:19:24	This post is likely old news but it caught me off guard. I've been reading through it at work at nights, bouncing between sections. And I started wondering about halflings and gnomes. Are halflings the hobbit shire-folk or 2e or the kender or 4e? So I scan the book and only find scattered references to halflings although their main shire seems to have been a casualty. No references to their lifestyle in the Realms, if they're river folk, etc. Ditto the gnomes. Although I'm sure gnomes had a nation back in the day I can't find any references now. And gnomish lifestyle is entirely lacking. I'm sure this will be in the Player's Guide but it really doesn't help the DM much when there's no real lifestyle information. Or even demographics. I'm unsure which nations have lots of halflings and gnomes, and which ones are little-people scarce. The more I think about it the more it nags me that there is no "people of the Realms" or "Life in the Realms" section and that the DM will have to entirely rely on a player book to actually describe the world and bring it to life.
#2 aseran Aug 21, 2008 17:22:31	It's completely true. As much as I otherwise love this book, there really should have been a disclaimer. All the crunch/toys for players is in the next one. This is the DM/fanboy tome.
#3 Iluvrien Aug 21, 2008 17:25:44	It's completely true. As much as I otherwise love this book, there really should have been a disclaimer. All the crunch/toys for players is in the next one. This is the DM/fanboy tome. Personally I wouldn't consider "People of the Realms" or especially a "Life in the Realms" section to be very crunchy. Possibly with a player based leaning in the latter case but that is more "How you can live" rather than "How people do live". I would have really liked to see these sections.
#4 aseran Aug 21, 2008 17:33:53	Personally I wouldn't consider "People of the Realms" or especially a "Life in the Realms" section to be very crunchy. Possibly with a player based leaning in the latter case but that is more "How you can live" rather than "How people do live". I would have really liked to see these sections. Not crunch, maybe, but still falls sort of in the category of "player toys", as it were. Tricky thing is here is a DM can also benefit from that as much as anyone. On one hand, I'm glad that they've split it into two books; it gives them a lot more elbow room and a chance to elaborate where they need to. On the other hand; it's not like they COULDN'T have trimmed off bits here and there, saving them for future products.
#5 lord_karsus Aug 21, 2008 19:02:06	-Well, one half if the FRCG, and the other half is the FRPG. A handy trick.
#6 unfamiliar Aug 21, 2008 20:25:21	I'm betting next month we'll see similar threads from the opposite side when the FRPG is as much of a disappointment for fluff lovers (OK, that just sounds dirty, but what can I do?) who are gonna be looking for more history & Realmslore, instead of a bunch of crunchy character options. But with only two main rulebooks to publish for each campaign setting, perhaps they're simply choosing to give each group what they want, instead of offering up one big jumbled-up book.
#7 aseran Aug 21, 2008 20:29:02	I'm assuming, though, that they're not planning on stopping at two rulebooks for campaign setting, correct? Or at least, I hope that's not the case. Two per setting would be really, really underwhelming.
#8 barthalas Aug 21, 2008 20:50:07	I'm assuming, though, that they're not planning on stopping at two rulebooks for campaign setting, correct? Or at least, I hope that's not the case. Two per setting would be really, really underwhelming. I believe what they have said is that only two per setting is the plan but they MAY release other books if they feel the market warrants it but they currently have no plans for any specific book. Their plan for fleshing out the settings (Realms, Eberron, etc...) is through DDI articles and novels.
#9 lord_karsus Aug 21, 2008 21:37:20	I'm assuming, though, that they're not planning on stopping at two rulebooks for campaign setting, correct? Or at least, I hope that's not the case. Two per setting would be really, really underwhelming. -The plan is to release two sourcebooks and an adventure (The Shackled Tower of Spellgard, I believe is the title). Additional information will be included in novels, online DRAGON articles, and the DDI.
#10 aseran Aug 21, 2008 23:14:21	Ow.
#11 Belorin Aug 21, 2008 23:21:40	Read the two Elfharrow previews, the CG and the PG, they compliment each other quite well. Bel
#12 serphet Aug 21, 2008 23:26:26	the other CS books didn't sell well enough, things like 'the shining south' and so on. So what they are going to do instead is release articles in Dragon about this sor tof stuff. I wouldn't be surprised to see a monthly FR and a monthly EB article column appear soon.
#13 markustay63 Aug 21, 2008 23:26:27	Well, considering the Core rules won't be finished until next year, it kinda makes sense they couldn't finish a setting book in one shot anymore either.
#14 serphet Aug 21, 2008 23:28:59	Well, considering the Core rules won't be finished until next year. this aa reference to the PHB2? b/c that isn't going to be the last one, there will be a PHB, a DMG, and a MM every year till 5E
#15 markustay63 Aug 21, 2008 23:30:55	Yes, but the core classes of Bard and Monk will be available then, so until that comes out, I don't consider the rules finished. Also, they said they specifically left out any 'mind powers' from the arcane casters to make Psionics more unique. This is the first edition built from the start with psionics in mind. Ergo, until we get those missing 'mental powers', the rules aren't complete for that reason either. You know, if this truly is half a book, I have half a mind to buy it. :P
#16 protonik_dup Aug 21, 2008 23:32:54	It's completely true. As much as I otherwise love this book, there really should have been a disclaimer. All the crunch/toys for players is in the next one. This is the DM/fanboy tome. I thought it was prettly blatant that the Campaign guide was a DM's book and the Character Guide was the crunchy book... just by the titles and the fact that WOTC talked about the crunchy stuff in reference to the Character book I gathered that...
#17 protonik_dup Aug 21, 2008 23:35:45	Well, considering the Core rules won't be finished until next year, it kinda makes sense they couldn't finish a setting book in one shot anymore either. The core rules are finished... you do know that the 3e PHBII and DMGII and the various Monster Manuals in 3e were all listed and sold as core rules right? The future books are, much like the previous edition, ADDITIONS to the core rules that you can take or leave. The whole 4e is incomplete or missing fundamentals arguement is baseless.
#18 hippokrene Aug 21, 2008 23:51:11	The book as-is, has 300 pages. While taking the first 36 pages out would be a fabulous idea, I think focusing the book purely on a broad overview of the world is the way to go.
#19 serphet Aug 21, 2008 23:55:58	loudwater isn't that bad really, I just like the nenthir vale in the DMG, except with more adventure aids.
#20 markustay63 Aug 22, 2008 0:02:43	The core rules are finished... you do know that the 3e PHBII and DMGII and the various Monster Manuals in 3e were all listed and sold as core rules right? The future books are, much like the previous edition, ADDITIONS to the core rules that you can take or leave. The whole 4e is incomplete or missing fundamentals arguement is baseless. Gotcha... So what you are saying is that with each new edition they release, we should expect less then what we got in previous editions. It all makes sense now. So, will 5e just have the fighter in the PHB? ;) :P
#21 hippokrene Aug 22, 2008 0:07:39	Serphet, Entire nations get 2 pages while the Barrow of the Orge King gets 6. I'm not saying it's 'bad.' I'm saying it's a poor use of the space in the book. How about picking 6 cities and giving them a page long write up? Or 6 important figures in the Realms? Or 6 powerful orginizations? Or 6 active gods? The Realms are huge, and if you're trying to fit everything into 300 pages, you don't spend 36 detailing a single, small town, a lackluster adventure, and a dungeon.
#22 ORC_Yawgmoth Aug 22, 2008 1:50:07	Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
#23 serphet Aug 22, 2008 1:53:10	Hmm I guess I'll agree to that, the loudwater bits would have made a good web enhancement/DDI article (though people would moan about it wsating an aritcle space, though it would have een a good kick off for a FR column)
#24 Another_Gnome Aug 22, 2008 2:07:18	Let's not forget that FRCS had 2 short adventures taking up 10 pages, and roughly 50 pages of crunch, leaving about 240 pages for lore. Admittably I haven't yet seen the layout of the FRCG so I can't tell how much space actually is spent on fluff per page, but to hazard a guess the overall numbers can't differ so dramatically between CS and CG as to warrant calling the latter only half a book. Okay, that's what it's supposed to be, but still...
#25 hippokrene Aug 22, 2008 2:26:48	Let's not forget that FRCS had 2 short adventures taking up 10 pages, and roughly 50 pages of crunch, leaving about 240 pages for lore. If you make a mistake twice, it's still a mistake. ;) I actually have this problem with many RPG books; I think books should have a purpose and things that distract from that purpose are bad. I remember an (old) World of Darkness Vampire suppliment that was 60 pages, the first 15 pages was a story but there was no index in the back.
#26 Another_Gnome Aug 23, 2008 3:22:00	If you make a mistake twice, it's still a mistake. Oh, I definitely agree... I never bother with premade adventures, and having those waste up space in otherwise useful sourcebooks is a real bother. Fleshed-out starting locations are less of an issue, but unless they assume every single buyer starts their campaign there (which no doubt they don't) it does carry with it something of a bitter taste to pay for it.
#27 azi Aug 23, 2008 10:57:40	On the other hand, as someone who is just coming back to the setting as well as to D&D in general after 10ish years away, I found the chapter on Loudwater very helpful as a 'quick start guide'.