THe new Neverwinter game is announced! Set in the 4e version of Neverwinter to be released next year, based on the novels of Salvatore starting with Gauntlgrym, and developed by Atari's Cryptic Studios. This is so full of win!
FR has been a staple for the videogame industry with milestones such as Baldurs Gate and NWN. I hope Atari can pull off some dynamic combat adaptation of the 4e ruleset. It seems like hte rules could possibly be seemlessly integrated into a realtime system with powers and skills that require a certain downtime after use.
Get Hype.
Link
Official Site
No sale.
What I am less happy with is...
1. Cryptic Studios being the developper. As a lifetime subscriber to Star Trek Online I've been underwhelmed by the quality of thier products (even though their Dev to consumer interaction is surprising). Cryptic excels at character customization, but proves highly lacking on the angles of polished game design and entertaining gameplay.
I entertain the hope that Cryptic Studios will learn from past mistakes and devote more man-power into developping this modern instance of 'Neverwinter'.
2. I am mightily peeved that the NWN-style game remains yet again set in Forgotten Realms. I am tired of seeing computer games shove me into the Forgotten Realms. I don't give a rat's behind about Salvatore's new books being thematically tied with the single player campaign-aspect of this new game - couldn't they have instead set the game in the Nentir Vale and call it "Fallcrest"?! (heck, the Elsir Vale would've been good to, as long as it had the fallen Nerath Empire, old nations like Arkhosia and Bael Turath, the Dawn Wars, etc...)
Going with the core 4E D&D setting, history and cosmology would've have had appealed to a much larger playerbase interested in the D&D experience, without the shackles of the FR theme. Geeze, I really wish they had not chosen to stick to the 'Neverwinter' brand name and risk picking a new name to provide a broader setting-neutral experience.
Then, from there, they could've introduced an expansion pack which might've had the Forgotten Realm-specific development tools or something.
And while I did not have much hope of the FR setting getting Neverwinters nights...it seems to be just a tie in book for the computer game...ho-hum.
And my last meh statement....5 Classes...really? Five? I wonder if they are set characters or do you have any ability to make them different at all. If so what are the races? But this does not even closely resembles the D&D experience...on any level to me.
Though I might still check out the game out as a computer game to waste some time between actualy playing a real RPG...
I am glad to see 4E D&D finally being integrated into a PC videogame experience in the similar veins as Neverwinter Nights 1/2.
What I am less happy with is...
1. Cryptic Studios being the developper. As a lifetime subscriber to Star Trek Online I've been underwhelmed by the quality of thier products (even though their Dev to consumer interaction is surprising). Cryptic excels at character customization, but proves highly lacking on the angles of polished game design and entertaining gameplay.
I entertain the hope that Cryptic Studios will learn from past mistakes and devote more man-power into developping this modern instance of 'Neverwinter'.
Cryptic really has no incentive to do so, though. They firmly believe (akin to the D&D developers who destroyed the Realms) that their style of play is the only fun way to go and everything else is "not fun."
Star Trek Online had a huge potential, but it's deadly dull and the graphics are less than what one would expect. Champions Online is a sloppily merged version of City of Heroes and Marvel Super Heroes, just with Champions characters pasted in, heavier on the style of City of Heroes. Boring as all heck.
And lack of polish... isn't the exploration option of Star Trek online still broken? Awful. Honestly, with every patch it gets, I hear that it gets even more buggy.
So, why they went with Cryptic? It was cheap.
2. I am mightily peeved that the NWN-style game remains yet again set in Forgotten Realms. I am tired of seeing computer games shove me into the Forgotten Realms. I don't give a rat's behind about Salvatore's new books being thematically tied with the single player campaign-aspect of this new game - couldn't they have instead set the game in the Nentir or Elsir Vale and call it "Fallcrest"?!
Going with the core 4E D&D setting, history and cosmology would've have had appealed to a much larger playerbase interested in the D&D experience, without the shackles of the FR theme. Geeze, I really wish they had not chosen to stick to the 'Neverwinter' brand name and risk picking a new name to provide a broader setting-neutral experience.
Well, obviously they're trying to bank on the brand names here.
Until it was bombed by the Spellplague (which drove at least half of the original fanbase away in anger), the Forgotten Realms was a big name.
Neverwinter as originally developed by Bioware, that was a good game and had a good reputation.
So they're banking on brand names of the past, even though both the Realms and Neverwinter city are completely and totally different... different designers, competely changed, etc. That's brand name usage for you, and most companies rely on it. It's just that most brands don't have radical changes.
Color me underwhelmed... five classes? Its like they're not even trying anymore...
www.massively.com/2010/08/23/massively-e...
At least Jack Emmert fesses up on past missteps. Does this bode well for the future?
I wish, but cynicism urges me not to think so. Once burned, twice shy.
Darn, I'm really hoping they actually get to have a decent investment in this game so that they'll be able to have a credible development team to work around with this. I'm not sure how long they've been in the production stage, but the new Neverwinter Nights being released even at the end of 2011 means less than a year-and-a-half of development time - and that's what Star Trek Online got.
To be bluntly honest, I don't think Star Trek Online is lame. It's just very barebones... and its Dev team have made a lot of fixes and innovations in the past 6 months that at least looks promising. When the game reaches 2 to 2.5 years old (meaning a total development time of 4 years) I've seen enough to indicate that if STO survives this long it'll be able to stand pretty solidly with its genre-competitors at the current pace of updates/overhauls.
Neverwinter, though, won't have as much of that luxury, and Emmert is right to be wary of not launching something that's low qality. The limited amount of races and classes in themselves is not altogether too diffeent from the current marketing scheme WotC has with the Essential products, so, I'm not surprised by the approach either.
Ugh. But I'm still going to rag about the brandname and the choice to stay in the FR setting. what a way to latch to the lower denominator. Couldn't they have based themselves off the Mark of Nerath book chain itself? *headdesk*
From what I've heard about the company's other games, not impressed. Not impressed by five classes, not impressed by pretty much anything I'm hearing about it.
Not interested.
Boycott
I suspect the 5 classes will be: 1) Fighter (duh), 2) Wizard, 3) Rogue, 4) Cleric, 5) is up in the air, but my guess would be for Paladin.
Since it's release is in 2011 I expect it will conform to the Essentials products rather than 4e Classic.
I'm not surprised about Atari either as they've been a major player in D&D software for a while (DDO, Demon Stone, etc.)
I woulda liked them to maybe choose another location, Like Waterdeep! Waterdeep is so freakin huge, and theres so much going on there, that would make a perfect location for an online Multi-player game. Itd also be cool if they opened it up some, like instead of just being set in Neverwinter, put in more of the Realms in there for us to explore, that would be super Awesome!
It's Ranger.
And you'll get excited by anything, won't you, Silversword? 
I am glad to see 4E D&D finally being integrated into a PC videogame experience in the similar veins as Neverwinter Nights 1/2.
What I am less happy with is...
1. Cryptic Studios being the developper. As a lifetime subscriber to Star Trek Online I've been underwhelmed by the quality of thier products (even though their Dev to consumer interaction is surprising). Cryptic excels at character customization, but proves highly lacking on the angles of polished game design and entertaining gameplay.
I entertain the hope that Cryptic Studios will learn from past mistakes and devote more man-power into developping this modern instance of 'Neverwinter'.
2. I am mightily peeved that the NWN-style game remains yet again set in Forgotten Realms. I am tired of seeing computer games shove me into the Forgotten Realms. I don't give a rat's behind about Salvatore's new books being thematically tied with the single player campaign-aspect of this new game - couldn't they have instead set the game in the Nentir Vale and call it "Fallcrest"?! (heck, the Elsir Vale would've been good to, as long as it had the fallen Nerath Empire, old nations like Arkhosia and Bael Turath, the Dawn Wars, etc...)
Going with the core 4E D&D setting, history and cosmology would've have had appealed to a much larger playerbase interested in the D&D experience, without the shackles of the FR theme. Geeze, I really wish they had not chosen to stick to the 'Neverwinter' brand name and risk picking a new name to provide a broader setting-neutral experience.
Then, from there, they could've introduced an expansion pack which might've had the Forgotten Realm-specific development tools or something.
Well, for one, you will have the ability to make custom content and you can make that as neutral as Switzerland. For two, F neutral settings. How the hell can you tell a story in a neutral setting? Forgotten Realms is one of, if not THE richest fantasy setting around. Come to think of it, how the hell CAN you have a neutral setting? I mean, you have to tell some sort of story so even in the core world you are going to have some bias.
one word:
Boycott
Really? Boycott? Because they have the audacity to make a Forgotten Realms game? Quite frankly, judging from the small amount of info I have read so far, I think this game will make a great substitute to playing the actual PnP game. It wil be much easier to connect with friends online to do some adventurting. Do you know the last time I was able to actually play the PnP game? 4 years ago and it sucked. 4 hours of character creations and bickering over rules. So anything that is going to allow me to experience some DnD gameplay in FR without all of the hassle sounds like a winner to me.
It's Ranger.
And you'll get excited by anything, won't you, Silversword?
Bummer, well im not too excited that the mystery class is Ranger, but yeah I should of seen that one coming, tied in with Drizzt novles and all. Well Bladesinger, or at the very least Swordmage better be available in the expansion pack!
I am interested.
cool! I'll get an adventuring party together yet!
I've spent countless hours online with Biowares NWN; PvP'ing with NWN sorcerer, monk, cleric, rogue and fighter builds on excellently made community servers. The spells included we're awesome, spamming icestorms on sneaky types, disjuncting opposing mages and counterspelling with Mord's, giving fighter types expanded tactical use by casting mass invisibility and haste. Tactically mages were masters but they could be stopped with good teamwork and gratitious dispelling tactics. Some rogue builds of mine could easily slay buffed mages with a sneak full attack.
I am not saying its a must buy, because it could be a turd. Even so I have good faith in the developers because they have said they take great care in delivering Forge, the mod to create your own dungeons. Evidenced by NWN's module community I think if they'll implement Forge properly the community for the game can salvage the project by its own merits.
I am very excited, yes. I dont have any experience with City of Heroes(/Villains) but I have a good feeling about the chance that Cryptic will deliver good sword and sorcery action with a 4e ruleset as a base. The more movement and positioning oriented combat rules of 4e are indicative of interesting possibilities if powers can converted to realtime.
I've spent countless hours online with Biowares NWN; PvP'ing with NWN sorcerer, monk, cleric, rogue and fighter builds on excellently made community servers. The spells included we're awesome, spamming icestorms on sneaky types, disjuncting opposing mages and counterspelling with Mord's, giving fighter types expanded tactical use by casting mass invisibility and haste. Tactically mages were masters but they could be stopped with good teamwork and gratitious dispelling tactics. Some rogue builds of mine could easily slay buffed mages with a sneak full attack.
I am not saying its a must buy, because it could be a turd. Even so I have good faith in the developers because they have said they take great care in delivering Forge, the mod to create your own dungeons. Evidenced by NWN's module community I think if they'll implement Forge properly the community for the game can salvage the project by its own merits.
You probably have a good feeling because of Bioware. Cryptic is not Bioware, though, not by a longshot.
They're banking on people thinking of Bioware. That's what brand recognition is all about.
Story wise its a real bummer that Bioware left the Neverwinter game to Cryptic thats for sure.
*Yes, I got Going Rogue, I ever preordered it, and I am enjoying it thus far.
Sorry but somebody had to balance things out around here.
But any way, sort of still on topic, did anybody check out that Road to Neverwinter Ezine? Got some interesting stuff in there, some nice artwork of the city, maps, appreantly the Host Tower of the Arcane is back up and running. That map of Luskan looks pretty sweet. Wish I could copy and save it, but unfortunatly when I right click on it, it just gives me the option to share it on facebook or whatever, bummer.
www.wizardsofthecoast-digital.com/wizard...
Can't say I'd be too enthused about Bioware either, at least since EA bought them. That's usually a sign that I should stay the hells away from a company and its products...
Actually I rather liked Dragon Age. There were quite a few bugs but the latest patches have dealt with most of them from what I hear. They certainly didn't stop me from playing the game several times though.
My husband loves Mass Effect. I'd like to play it but I'm just too terrible a console player.
As for 5 classes, I'm not suprised mainly because each classs has what, 40 - 50 powes plus multipul paragon paths and epic destinies? That's alot of info in 1 game. Better to keep it simple and add-on later.
Also, who's making that stupid comparison between Essentials and 4.5?
This game does sound intriguing, but having not played any other games from Cryptic, I have no basis fo comparison. But even Bioware had it's ups and downs. NWN2 should've NEVER had the difficulties it did OR system requirments for the graphics and game play we received. OTOH Mass Effect is slowly taking over my life as I delve deeper into the game (all my friends are keeping *hush hush* about the ending) so now I have to beat it to play Mass Effect 2.
As for 5 classes, I'm not suprised mainly because each classs has what, 40 - 50 powes plus multipul paragon paths and epic destinies? That's alot of info in 1 game. Better to keep it simple and add-on later.
Also, who's making that stupid comparison between Essentials and 4.5?
NWN was developed by Bioware/Atari. NWN2 was developed by Obsidian/Atari.
Not really fair to blame Bioware for NWN2. I'd still prefer Obsidian over Cryptic any day of the week (Obsidian inherited many of the Black Isle Studios people, when it folded).
Even NWN was advertised in BG:ToB and IcewindDale2 to be compatible with the Infinity engine but the 3.0 conversion they did for it totaly went a different (the polygon 3d Aurora engine) direction. That Infinity era in RPG gaming was glorious.
I hope with the rise of popularity in isometric view point games that Bioware will return to make classic party based dungeon crawl RPGs.
At the same time I'm hoping for a decent hack n slash action oriented RPG based on the D&D license. Those can be good fun for releasing steam.
...I hope with the rise of popularity in isometric view point games that Bioware will return to make classic party based dungeon crawl RPGs.
I don't mean to pull too far away from the main discussion, but I didn't realize isometric view games are regaining popularity. What new isometric view games are available and/or being developed right now, and by which developers? Personally, I would really love that!
But games such as Valves Alien Swarm, Crystal Dynamics Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light or Team 17's Alien Breed: Impact all feature topdown action with online co-op. Its a shame but there are no good fantasy genre isometric games in development that I know of.
Starcraft 2 is the most recent case; Blizzard is among the developers realising the isometric view is the best for certain (their Diablo and RTS) franchises.
But games such as Valves Alien Swarm, Crystal Dynamics Lara Croft and the Guardian of Light or Team 17's Alien Breed: Impact all feature topdown action with online co-op. Its a shame but there are no good fantasy genre isometric games in development that I know of.
Ah, gotcha. It's funny, I just bought Starcraft 2 and I guess I didn't really think of it in this way. But you're right, these are definitely top-down views. Diablo 3 is definitely on my "to get" list. And Blizzard generally, with certain changes in the camera view I guess even World of Warcraft can be thought of in this way. Maybe that's one reason I still really like WoW and why I love Starcraft 2.
Totally agree about wanting a fantasy/medieval isometric view game. Although I likes me some WoW, it's really getting dated and I'd like something more than AION and LotRO which are really similar. I would completely love a new game in the style of the old Baldur's Gate series, with or without online co-op play.
Bioware shouldn't have left the D&D license in its wholesome. Their experience and flair with FR's Swordcoast region lore they showed with Baldurs Gate should have been build upon. Its all EA's fault that Bioware is sidelined into abandoning the license.
No. I mean, do you really think EA would say no to having their primary RPG subsidiary involved in making a game for the largest tRPG on the planet?
Bioware have said explicitly that they didn't want to work with other people's IP any more. I know they're doing it with SW:ToR, but everything apart from Star Wars they've done since NWN has been new IP, developed in house. (They seem to have had good dealings with Lucas Arts in the past). This way, they don't have to answer to other people, and that means among other things that they can develop the setting as they want to see it. If necessary, they can make significant changes to the setting. They have, in some of their games. I won't spoil the endings, since there's someone who hasn't finished Mass Effect 1 in this thread, but some things that happen in that are things I doubt they'd have been allowed to do with someone else's IP.
I hope with the rise of popularity in isometric view point games that Bioware will return to make classic party based dungeon crawl RPGs.
Dragon Age or some JRPGs are likely the closest thing you'll get. Nothing else I know of in the medium future covers party based dungeon crawls.
I love the Forgotten Realms and the Neverwinter NIghts series has always been amazing!
I am really pleased that they are going to be putting together 4ed and Neverwinter Nights!
This is amazing news!
Bioware does still have good products thankfully. I have not touched Mass Effect yet but their blend of 3rd person shooting and RPG elements is something that should give Cryptic a good benchmark for their game, if they want to bring a modernised RPG.
I am a bit worried about a supposed fee to play. This wasn't part of any earlier NWN iterations and I don't think they can expect people to go full subscription for basicly a regular online game.
I do think its good for FR that it gets a new game set in it, it will bring a new generation of gamers into the setting, especially if it succeeds to portray Neverwinter right.
So its a chance for the developers, story designers and artists at both WotC and Cryptic to have an opportunity to depict the parts of Neverwinter that previous digital incarnations lacked or did without much effort: the darkly fey influences in Neverwinter Wood, the cathedrals of the prominent clergies, the wizardly college.
If the new collaboration get their acts straight this might all be possible to see and experience in a little bit over a year.
As for the Neverwinter game, where in the article does it say that you'll have to pay a monthly sub-scription?
Thanks Bluenose for being discreet with Mass Effect. Apparently the ending is good and there's a twist. Looking forward to playing it more (though Vanguard isn't the best class to choose right off the bat i'm told).
Vanguard wouldn't be my choice for my first playthrough, certainly. I'll recommend maxing out Charm or Intimidate, depending on whether you're paragon or renegade. Concentrate on biotics and pistols, until you find your PC dropping regularly, then put some effort into protective abilities. Wrex and Tali make a good pair of companions with a vanguard.
As for the Neverwinter game, where in the article does it say that you'll have to pay a monthly sub-scription?
I don't think it does. In many ways, and I've said this before, it looks a lot more like some of the online multi-player first-person-shooters that exist than an MMO. Left 4 Dead, or it's ilk. Combined a littel bit with Guild Wars, which is an MMO but a slightly different one. Multi-player online role-playing games seem to be picking up a few more unusual entrants, Bioware's SW:tOR being another
1) Takes place in Rifts Faerun. I'm one of those "old fans" that isn't giving the new setting the time of day.
2) Online Co-Op. I play single player games.
3) Real time adaptation. There really is no excuse for adapting 4E. This may be the most easy system to reproduce on a PC ever penned. Simulate!
4) Cryptic. Very, very Cryptic.
You want to draw me in, and maybe get me invested in the new Realms(though that's a stretch)? Give me a turn based(or at least real time w/pause) simulation of the 4E rules with a well written single player campaign and full moddability. When creating the game engine, keep in mind the modder's desire to add house rules, create new content on all levels, and write adventures. Throw in DM tools and allow for online and LAN based multiplayer, and you have a true winner. In other words, if you insist on repeatedly resurrecting the Neverwinter Nights name, at least have the decency to surpass the one Bioware made. Anything else is a transparent money grab and an insult to past greatness.
Oh, and I guess you can throw in some shiny graphics or something to grab the younger crowd. See where that lies in the scheme of things?
Thanks Bluenose for being discreet with Mass Effect. Apparently the ending is good and there's a twist. Looking forward to playing it more (though Vanguard isn't the best class to choose right off the bat i'm told).
Vanguard wouldn't be my choice for my first playthrough, certainly. I'll recommend maxing out Charm or Intimidate, depending on whether you're paragon or renegade. Concentrate on biotics and pistols, until you find your PC dropping regularly, then put some effort into protective abilities. Wrex and Tali make a good pair of companions with a vanguard.
So I've been told. All my friends and Co-workers said they went with Soldier (though my cousin played as Infiltrator and loved it) so they can't really help me with a "build". I'm almost maxed out on Intimidate 'cuz i'm going Renegade and I always bring Tali with me and I often choose between Wrex and Ashley (she has the better armors). Thanks for the help though, Vanguard is difficult mainly because my weapon selection is rather poor. Pistols are nice and all....but it doesn't compare to the carbine
. As for the Neverwinter game, where in the article does it say that you'll have to pay a monthly sub-scription?
I don't think it does. In many ways, and I've said this before, it looks a lot more like some of the online multi-player first-person-shooters that exist than an MMO. Left 4 Dead, or it's ilk. Combined a littel bit with Guild Wars, which is an MMO but a slightly different one. Multi-player online role-playing games seem to be picking up a few more unusual entrants, Bioware's SW:tOR being another
That could be interesting, but we'll have to see. I've learn to love a lot of game-play styles (FPS, 3rd person shooter, and real-time RPGs) and if this game has a mix of a few, that's really interesting and could be alot of fun. Having played both Guild Wars and WoW I can say that there is a big difference between the two when it comes to actually playing the game. When you leave a town (community center, etc...) then the game is strictly what "you" are doing. It's not influenced by out-side sources so the whole world is an Instant (which can be really nice). I hope the Neverwinter game plays like that espically because it's easier to do Solo than being required to Co-Op.
This is an automatic "no" for me.
1) Takes place in Rifts Faerun. I'm one of those "old fans" that isn't giving the new setting the time of day.
2) Online Co-Op. I play single player games.
3) Real time adaptation. There really is no excuse for adapting 4E. This may be the most easy system to reproduce on a PC ever penned. Simulate!
4) Cryptic. Very, very Cryptic.
You want to draw me in, and maybe get me invested in the new Realms(though that's a stretch)? Give me a turn based(or at least real time w/pause) simulation of the 4E rules with a well written single player campaign and full moddability. When creating the game engine, keep in mind the modder's desire to add house rules, create new content on all levels, and write adventures. Throw in DM tools and allow for online and LAN based multiplayer, and you have a true winner. In other words, if you insist on repeatedly resurrecting the Neverwinter Nights name, at least have the decency to surpass the one Bioware made. Anything else is a transparent money grab and an insult to past greatness.
Oh, and I guess you can throw in some shiny graphics or something to grab the younger crowd. See where that lies in the scheme of things?
I haven't seen an actual turn-based game in a while. And I feel it's because most of them suck honestly. Sure, Final Fantasy is still pretty huge because it has a huge following but I could not, for the life of me, play that game because I despise turn-based games. And it's mainly because the combat of those games are soo....lame? Now when you get to real-time RPGs where you can pause (Mass Effect, SW:KotR, old NWNs games) then I'm defintily on board. And I'm hoping that this new game has those elements involved. From the interview with the guy (can't remember his name ATM) he said that powers (encounter, daily) will be measured with real-time Minutes/hours respectively. To me that bodes well for this style of game-play and it's correlation with 4e rules.
A good Solo campaign mode would be something I'd really like to have as well. Sometimes we just can't go out and join a party and play for 4-5 hours at a time so going out alone and NOT getting killed every 10 seconds woud be nice. And the tool-set is going to be a major factor with this game and I'm sure there will be mods that take the game that much further for playability after the main mission/game is done.
TOEE wasn't bad, but its buggyness was enough to mount up with the buggyness of Daggerfall.
anyway, IF they don't charge a monthly fee, I MIGHT look at it.
if they do, well thats one of my personal reasons to BOYCOTT it.
I haven't seen an actual turn-based game in a while. And I feel it's because most of them suck honestly. Sure, Final Fantasy is still pretty huge because it has a huge following but I could not, for the life of me, play that game because I despise turn-based games. And it's mainly because the combat of those games are soo....lame?
I was thinking about The Temple of Elemental Evil when I said that. It was and is still the best representation of any version of D&D ever to be put on PC. Show stopping bugs and lack of modding tools(both rectified by determined modders) kept the game from being the hit that Bioware and Obsidian's games were, but can you think of another game that a different beginning for every alignment?
Turn based doesn't equal bad gameplay(and Final Fantasy isn't turn based anyway, it's menu driven real time). There have been some excellent turn based games. Arcanum, Disciples, Civilization(and any numerous other 4X games), Fallout, the old Gold Box series, numerous other old school games(of which there are good and bad, just like now). Real time isn't an improvement over turn based, it's just another option. And you will never, never get a real D&D experience on the PC in a real time game(and yes, I am including the exceedingly marvelous, but not entirely P&P accurate Black Isle/Bioware games of the Infinity Engine days in that assessment).
Sorry for the mini-rant... the "turn based gameplay sucks" thing is a bit of a sore point for me, especially in light of all the recent lackluster RPGs that have been thrust upon us.
But any way this new Neverwinter game sounds like it might be worth checking out at least. Its got me interested in it, I think its still a little early to form an opinion, and it seems to have a lot of tie ins, Drizzt novels, the Neverwinter Campaign book, so Im guessing that this game will stay truer to the Realms that previous Neverwinter games, but I guess time will tell.
I still say the orginal Pool of Radiance was the best D&D computer ever made!
+1 !!
I still run this game via an emulator. Fun times.
though the deal with an ogre playing Obould and a waaay to small kluathwere lacking in believability
so much so I ignored it
I still say the orginal Pool of Radiance was the best D&D computer ever made!
+1 !!
I still run this game via an emulator. Fun times.
Funny, I had just started up a new game today.
I haven't seen an actual turn-based game in a while. And I feel it's because most of them suck honestly. Sure, Final Fantasy is still pretty huge because it has a huge following but I could not, for the life of me, play that game because I despise turn-based games. And it's mainly because the combat of those games are soo....lame?
I was thinking about The Temple of Elemental Evil when I said that. It was and is still the best representation of any version of D&D ever to be put on PC. Show stopping bugs and lack of modding tools(both rectified by determined modders) kept the game from being the hit that Bioware and Obsidian's games were, but can you think of another game that a different beginning for every alignment?
Having never played ToEE, I really can't comment on the product. Though a turn-based game I did play was Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor. It was lack-luster in effects and the turn-based was rather annoying yet the game had great potential if the characters could move faster than walking speed or the slow trot. I've still never even made it out of the dungeons because my party kept dying against the scarred mages. But the idea of each alignment getting it's own beginning is pretty interesting.
Turn based doesn't equal bad gameplay(and Final Fantasy isn't turn based anyway, it's menu driven real time). There have been some excellent turn based games. Arcanum, Disciples, Civilization(and any numerous other 4X games), Fallout, the old Gold Box series, numerous other old school games(of which there are good and bad, just like now). Real time isn't an improvement over turn based, it's just another option. And you will never, never get a real D&D experience on the PC in a real time game(and yes, I am including the exceedingly marvelous, but not entirely P&P accurate Black Isle/Bioware games of the Infinity Engine days in that assessment).
Sorry for the mini-rant... the "turn based gameplay sucks" thing is a bit of a sore point for me, especially in light of all the recent lackluster RPGs that have been thrust upon us.
From the list of turn-based games you mentioned above, I've only played Civilizations III and it didn't hold my interest at all. I've hard Fallout is fun but I've never played it. As for not getting the D&D experience from games on PC I've felt that NWN did a great job of bringing that D&D experience with the skill set it provided. But the D&D experience is very subjective. What exactly is your idea of a D&D experience??
D&D is a turn based game. There is no way to make it real time without simplifying the gameplay, either in fact or in practice. The Infinity Engine games came closest (and struck an enjoyable balance) although they had other alterations that still boggle my mind. Neverwinter Nights nailed one aspect of the experience(the ability to game in a group with a DM), but could hardly be said to be a true representation of P&P D&D rules.
The Temple of Elemental Evil hit the way that (3E) D&D is played dead on(though it had alterations too, because game developers seem to have a built int compulsion to screw with things that already work). You had your rounds, your standard, movement and free actions, and so on. You could strategize. Ranged attacks were actually useful for something other than getting off one attack before everything became a jumbled melee. It was easier to use area effect spells like fireball, because you could keep track of where your party was. It's just completely different from all the modern D&D games.
Most modern D&D games could have their internal rules changed to a completely different game system, and most people would never notice(though that probably does not include most people that frequent this forum) due to the frantic action oriented nature in which they are played. If I wanted an action RPG I would play Diablo or one of its many clones. Making an action game and attaching a Forgotten Realms story to it does not make it D&D(though this does not mean it's a bad game).
In the end, it doesn't really matter what I want. Turn based games are rare these days(Diciples 3 is out! cue girlish squeeling), and the high cost of modern game development combined with the current economy doesn't exactly encourage a publisher to allow its development houses to color outside the lines. The only chance I have of seeing the sort of game I'd want to play is for Hasbro to stop giving exclusive licenses and give smaller developers a chance. Which of course would be good for everyone, WotC included.
The best turn-based IMO had to be the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series. What they sacrificed in terms of "perfect mechanics," they gained in terms of immersion and fun playability.
But these days, it seems that if it doesn't go super fast like an MMO, say combat like WoW, then people won't embrace it in large numbers. But I'd really prefer one of those Infinity Engine games (updated, of course) to any MMO currently on the market.
Oh, and the Infinity Engine games were not turn based. They were real time with pause.
The BG series at least could be turn-based if you chose 'rounds' in the auto-pause options. I always did this, as well as pausing when enemy sighted and when enemy killed. I saw no reason to punish my party for my real-life poor reflexes. ;)
You know, I think I'm going to play BG again. It has been a while...
I think on the one hand current technology can push the boundaries of certain game genres closer to eachother, resulting in truly awesome hybrid games (Deus Ex: Human Revolution is an example of upcoming FPS blended with RPG and open orld games). On the other the tried and true gameplay of oldskool RPG's has regretfully been abandoned and its era could easily be expanded upon.
There's a chance Cryptic handles the realtime action really well enabling the tactical nature of all 4E powers to shine. Combined with immersive storytelling of older era games a new online tactical dungeon crawl game could become a real succes.
I imagine the at-will, ecnounter and daily powers convert easily into regular attacks, abilities available after every minute and after each hour of gametime. I hope the levelcap will at least extend to 20, not the limited 10 of DDO.
ToEE had the potential to be a great game. I liked the graphics and the combat system. The bugs were too terrible and the plot, boring.
Yeah, it's really only the game engine that I like. The story is lacking, as you say. The bugs have pretty much all been fixed by the modding community though.
I guess it's just what comes of having grown up on P&P, Ultima and the Gold Box series. I don't equate slow with boring. I find Diablo boring, but it could hardly be considered to be slow. I find most FPS to be boring. I like D&D because I actually have to think in order to succeed.
I don't usually equate slower play with boring either, but in the case of Temple of Elemental Evil it was just mechanics for the sake of mechanics. Sometimes, choosing every tiny action and movement isn't fun, as in this case it felt more like stepwise methodical boredom (which isn't "thinking" IMO). It was like trying to play tabletop D&D, but completely by yourself.... and slogging through all the rounds slowly... for what?
Oh, and the Infinity Engine games were not turn based. They were real time with pause.
No, they weren't exactly "real time" either. They approximated turn-based activity if you selected "rounds" as Pamela mentioned. With pauses on rounds, it allowed for action choices yet didn't have the "slog" factor.
Baldur’s Gate II Game Features
- Create a new character or import your current one from "Baldur's Gate" or "Tales of the Sword Coast."
- Real-time gameplay, with the ability to pause the action at any time.
- Fight battles step by step!
- Hundreds of monsters and characters to discover, and all new magic spells to master.
- Supported 800x600 resolution, full-screen mode and 3D acceleration for spectacular visual effects
- Richer quests and sub-quests to undertake, for good or for evil.
- Improved multi-player support for up to 6 players.
- A massive gaming world, hundreds of hours of gameplay!
The Infinity Engine games were not turn based.
taken from www.bioware.com/games/shadows_amn/game_i...Baldur’s Gate II Game Features
- Create a new character or import your current one from "Baldur's Gate" or "Tales of the Sword Coast."
- Real-time gameplay, with the ability to pause the action at any time.
- Fight battles step by step!
- Hundreds of monsters and characters to discover, and all new magic spells to master.
- Supported 800x600 resolution, full-screen mode and 3D acceleration for spectacular visual effects
- Richer quests and sub-quests to undertake, for good or for evil.
- Improved multi-player support for up to 6 players.
- A massive gaming world, hundreds of hours of gameplay!
The Infinity Engine games were not turn based.
You have to remember that this is the advertising of the time it was made, and not all advertising was entirely accurate even then. In your effort to be right, you're missing the fact that the definitions people use today are a little different. And our conversation is happening today, where we are comparing BG to things made today.
"Real time," what that usually means today is something on the order of World of Warcraft or Starcraft. Time in Baldur's Gate was absolutely NOT a 1:1 mesh with real world time.
Furthermore, as people have pointed out to you (and you've even highlighted it above in their advertising), Baldur's Gate simulates turn-based time with the automatic pause effect. That's not "real time" at all, precisely because you can pause at every single decision point in a fight and make choices.
In your effort to be right, you're missing the fact that the definitions people use today are a little different.
Uh-oh. You said the "D" word. Now I have to send you to TV Tropes.
Real time means real time. Turn based means turn based. Baldur's Gate is, and has always been a hybrid, leaning towards the real time end of the spectrum. The fact that the game can be set up to autopause does not change the inner workings of the game itself. I could get the same effect in Dragon Age by pausing every time somone does something(and I'm sure someone could mod the game to do it automatically too). The only difference is that I'd be dealing with cool down time instead of ramp up time. Real Time with Pause has been the largely accepted term for the Infinity Engine games for quite some time now. I don't know when the term came into use, but I do know that it has not been replaced in the present. Up is still up. We still call the sky blue. Arcanum is still a turn based game. Baldur's Gate still isn't.
It is, however, still more fun than 90% of the overhyped dreck that they call RPGs these days. Now there is a term that has changed meaning...
Uh-oh. You said the "D" word. Now I have to send you to TV Tropes.
Congrats on your ability to link to TVtropes. For a discussion, it's like linking to Lolcats.
I used the phrase "simulates turn-based" for a reason. If you want to actually continue the tangential disscussion, rather than copy/paste wiki and link to TVtropes, you're welcome to PM me.
I could quote the numerous game publications that also refer to Baldur's Gate as real time, but it has become clear that you won't accept any evidence, not even from the game's developer, that contradicts your stance. Personally, I prefer established defintions to my own conjurations, but you do what you want.
"Real time," what that usually means today is something on the order of World of Warcraft or Starcraft. Time in Baldur's Gate was absolutely NOT a 1:1 mesh with real world time.
Real time is generally short hand for Real Time Simulation or RTS made popular with games like Command and Conquer (which also allowed you to pause the game and give commands). I have never heard anyone, nor read any game related article, that applied the term Real Time to something like WoW. If a game writer did so they'd have their credibility laughed away.
I'm not sure where you're getting your modern day definition from because what you're presenting is not part of current game lingo.
I didn't say "Real Time Strategy" because yes, those are a specific genre. I said "Real Time" which applies to many different games. Real time also applies to persistent worlds of various types. And to a degree, yes it can also apply to Baldur's Gate (and Dragon9: I think it's interesting that you didn't call out Scars_Unseen for saying BG a Real Time game... but that you did for me with WoWarcraft... funny that).
In any case, my main point was simply this: the old Baldur's Gate series had a component where you could have an auto-pause and thereby allow a player to make individual choices for everyone in the party, round by round, which took you out of the flow of real time because it simulated turn-based play. Note that I didn't say that it was a perfect example of a turn-based game, only that it simulated turn-based combat because of that auto-pause. That's all, geez.
As to turn based... I'd say it again depended on the genre (strategy versus RPG versus simulations versus whatever) and time-scale being used for actual meaning. My own view is that BG on autopause does count as turn-based, despite not using a lot of the conventions of more traditional forms of turn-based games, since it performs pretty much the same thing, just in a less formalized manner. Others wouldn't (and obviously don't) agree... but its all still just minutea that is, as Joranhast said, tangential to the subject at hand, and best taken to PMs lest it hopelessly derail the thread even further.
Look, both of you... you're focusing on narrow definitions while I'm trying to make a point (which you both are ignoring in your efforts to appear as experts). But since you both need to have crystal clear definitions, let me just attempt to clarify the point I'm trying to make. Honestly, you can't have a discussion on these boards anymore because of the massive nitpicking that goes on all while ignoring the main points a poster is trying to make.
Well, you may call it nitpicking, but if you aren't using the correct terminology then your point will get lost, whatever it may be. It's not a matter of people trying to look like experts.
So to your point... I still have no idea what point you're trying to make. Yes, it has an option to pause the action to give orders. Are you trying to say this means it isn't a real time game?
Well, just for you, here's another link to a different interview with Emmert.
Uh-oh. You said the "D" word. Now I have to send you to TV Tropes.
Congrats on your ability to link to TVtropes. For a discussion, it's like linking to Lolcats.
I used the phrase "simulates turn-based" for a reason. If you want to actually continue the tangential disscussion, rather than copy/paste wiki and link to TVtropes, you're welcome to PM me.
Baldurs gate is a real time game system with a pause based mechanic for issuing orders. While it does roll initiative behind the scenes and resolves actions by that initiative, which is invisible to the player it doesn't change the fact it isn't turn based and is resolving everything in real time. If you have good "micro" like you're playing Starcraft 2 it is possible to avoid spell effects entirely, while if it was genuinely turn based you would not have this opportunity. Just because you can pause the game and issue orders does *not* make it a non-real time game. Everything that happens in the game happens simultaneously and in real time: Your orders no, but when you unpause the game is unmistakably not turn based in how it handles things.
Go and play X-Com, Temple of Elemental Evil and Civilization 5. Now go play Starcraft 2, Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2. Now tell me out of those games if Baldurs Gate 2 plays like a turn based game or a real time strategy game. I think you'll find while the pause mechanic helps slow the game down, RTS "twitch" skills can be completely valid in BG while they are utterly worthless in the first three.
I'd also like to point out I couldn't be more disappointed this game isn't turn based. 4E has an absolutely fantastic and easily translatable turn based combat system. It would work fantastically on the PC. Taking the depth of 4E and murdering it by taking all fine control out of actions by making actions resolve in real time is a horrible thing.
ToEE had the potential to be a great game. I liked the graphics and the combat system. The bugs were too terrible and the plot, boring.
Yeah, it's really only the game engine that I like. The story is lacking, as you say. The bugs have pretty much all been fixed by the modding community though.
Good on the modding community! If I ever feel like giving it another shot, I'll be sure to hunt down their patches and mods.
ToEE had the potential to be a great game. I liked the graphics and the combat system. The bugs were too terrible and the plot, boring.
Yeah, it's really only the game engine that I like. The story is lacking, as you say. The bugs have pretty much all been fixed by the modding community though.
Good on the modding community! If I ever feel like giving it another shot, I'll be sure to hunt down their patches and mods.
They can be found at the Circle of Eight forums.
I'd also like to point out I couldn't be more disappointed this game isn't turn based. 4E has an absolutely fantastic and easily translatable turn based combat system. It would work fantastically on the PC. Taking the depth of 4E and murdering it by taking all fine control out of actions by making actions resolve in real time is a horrible thing.
I think the main issue with turn-based is that the majority of gamers now-a-days don't like them and if this game were turn-based, then I think it would sell much much less. From my own limited experience with turn-based games (the only 'true' one being Pool of Radiance: RoMD) I can say that they're just plain ol' boring. Just because a game can be adapted from PnP and put onto the PC/Consol doesn't mean it should be.
I want a video game that has great game-play in real-time (w/ pause is nice, but can be hard or non-existant in an mass multi-arena) with a good story and backed up with the majority of mechanics from 4E. This does not mean that I have to have EVERY single power/feat obtainable through DDI nor does it mean that every feat/power should work exactly the same way in the game as it does on PnP. If I want a PnP game, I'll actually go and play a PnP game.
With that being said, a nice 3rd person RPG game much akin to Gears of War with a WoW HUD (head's up display) would be what I'd go with. It would have good combinations of NWN rpg, Gears of War/Mass Effect game-play, and with the HUD an easy accessable interface to select powers/spells/feats with no reason for pause.
Turn based games, or at least their game engines, have more to distinguish themselves among their peers. Since the action is slowed down(to the point that it is no longer called action), the gameplay can be more detailed. So when I move from one turn based game to anohter, I get a better feel for the differences between them. Of course, there are bad turn based games, just as there are bad real time games. The Ubisoft Pool of Radience game is a prime example of that. It's not boring because it's turn based. It's boring because it's a badly designed game. I'd rate ToEE above that game, and Arcanum and Fallout above ToEE. Disciples is also great, although it's more like Heroes of Might & Magic than an RPG(though the battles themselves remind me of a more interesting version of the old 2D Final Fantasy games than anything else).
Keep in mind, I'm talking about RPGs, not the action RPGs that are more prevalent today. In action RPGs my mind should be focused on the action and narrative, not the inner workings of the game. That's why I can play a game like Mass Effect multiple times. And I'm not trying to say that there's something inherantly wrong with a RPG being real time over turn based, only that I would like to see some options.
Fallout I have played, and only got into the first one. But Arcanum is definately the next RPG I'll track down if its a better polished RPG then ToEE.
Thats my concern, the games industry doesn't allow for smallish companies to take their time in devolopement to truely polish the inner workings of their games, they just stick with engines that work from earlier games or those of others and rarely experiment.
Neverwinter being online will force it to be realtime though. Truely looking forward how all the pushing and sliding powers will effect gameplay tactics with flanking and such.
To get a new story and mecanics driven RPG the modding community is a tactical RPG gamers only hope.
And here's one I found at TenTonHammer. I know a lot fo these are similar at this point, but there's some small snippets of different info in each of them.
Thanks for the links!
Bah I pass - I would rather they spend the extra time putting more classes in the game.
Also really tired of Neverwinter
www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/09/08/cryp...
There's a couple of nice high level details about the instancing, ongoing content and creator tools.....
I personally am willing to give Cryptic a chance, I mean Director's make bad films and don't get written off, and in most interviews Jack Emmert is quite honest about the shortcomings of CO and STO.
On the subject of the nature of the game he describes public spaces surrounded by instances - which is more or less what most MMORPGs are anyway, especially DDO.
And if they plan ongoing content I'm sure that must include new races, classes etc?
This could be great....it might not be, but I'm remaining hopeful!
And some good news....
"After launch, we'll be supplementing the game with more and more character classes, so expect to see old favorites like Paladins, Barbarians, Monks and Bards fairly quickly."
Now we just need to know what the races will be....hope Tiefling is in there!
Hopefully it's decent at worst.
Cryptic (i like city of heroes / villains) will fail on it. Give the project to bioware pls.
I don't really feel the game mechanics at work, and while some might say that is a good thing, it doesn''t do much to make me want to buy new games for anything other than graphics and story. Since I don't care that much about graphics, and because books are cheaper(and usually better written) than games, that's just not enough of a selling point.
I only just caught this one, having been away from the thread for a few weeks (sorry for the delay)... but the mechanics is a bigger selling point to you than the story? Really?
I have played some mechanically stunning games whose story was just terrible (and so only got played once), but the games that DO get a replay are the ones that have varied and interesting stories irrespective of mechanical brilliance. Certainly there has to be a minimum level of mechanical functionality, but I certainly wouldn't describe it as a primary selling point.
Cryptic would be perfect for that. They've been great at character customizations.
outpostgamez.com/index.php/component/con...
Some quite definate answers though...
No horses at launch...
No PVP at launch...
I hate to say this but Cryptic is horrible. They are by far the worst company out there. Since they split from City of Heros both of there games are horrible. And I mean bad. I was happy hearing about a new game then found out it was Cryptic and I just shuddered at how bad they are. I don't have much of a hope for this game. And only 5 classes? This isn't second edition. At least they could of used all the classes from the players guide one. So sad...
They've already stated that with additional content there is going to be other classes, races, etc... Whether or not you'll have to pay for that content is another matter. I'm still keeping an open mind about it for no other reason than I love FR games in general and I could use a good PC game.