Plane of Shadows- Conterminous
Astral Plane- Nonconterminous
Plane of Faerie- Unknown*
The Elemental Planes- Nonconterminous
*Not much was ever written on the Plane of Faerie, and rightfully so, being an eldrich and mysterious place. Based on my own personal depictions of the place, it is not conterminous with the Prime Material Plane, no.
Plane of Faerie- Unknown*
[...]
*Not much was ever written on the Plane of Faerie, and rightfully so, being an eldrich and mysterious place. Based on my own personal depictions of the place, it is not conterminous with the Prime Material Plane, no.
In terms of lore on the Plane of Faerie, I'd recommend the Bastion Press Faeries tome by Bryon Wischstadt. Steven Schend, who partly edited the book, had this little bit to say:-
"For those interested in another take/option on Faerie, there is a D20 option from Bastion Press y'all might want to take a look at.....
Bryon Wischstadt, long-time Realms fanatic and all-around good guy, wrote this guide to Faerie (both the realm/plane and inhabitants) and yours truly edited it alongside him. As both of us (and Jim Butler, Bastion's president, CEO, and chief cook and bottle washer) all have a deep and abiding love for the Realms, there's nothing in there that wouldn't work in terms of using Faerie as a source for ancient elves (or other more modern threats). It's a mix of old folklore and modern conceptions of Faerie and even stats up Old Man Winter, Father Time, and Father Christmas if you want such.
Steven
Who apologizes profusely for plugging a product but it seems relevant to the discussion at hand"
Is mthe shadowfell/feywild a mirror of the mortal world? or it it extremely different? what about the other two, i've read both campaign guides and Manual of planes. im a little confussed.
from my understanding both the feywild and the shadowfell are mirroed with the Prime Material.
Thus, the should have many of the same characteristics in the same locations, but they might be wildly different. For instance, if one should enter the feywild in a city on top of a mountain, one might well end up on the top of a MUCH higher mountain, and you are in the frozen, fragmented ruins of a city abandoned for millennia.
To me, the mirroring is similar to that in the old SNES Zelda game, where one traveled to and from the regular world to the dark realm, or like the Mirror-verse in Star Trek, or even some episodes of Sliders.
Things are the same, but they are definitely different.
As for the Astral Plane and the Elemental Sea, they are not coterminus. The Elemental Sea is the primal forge of existence, while the Astral has long been described as the space between existence, where time has no meaning.
In theory (imo) sections of Faerie that aren't reflections of the Prime are called Deep Faerie, through it you can reach the Feywilds parallel to other planets. It's like Feywild's outer space only similar to the Deep Ethereal, anything's possible there. I guess the equivalent of that in Shadowfel would be nothingness or whatever Shar wants.
Got to say that I greatly prefer Bastion Press's take on Faerie to WotC's.
Other 4e planes aren't parallel to the Prime, tough a god could make its domain to appear that way, in its own image.
from my understanding both the feywild and the shadowfell are mirroed with the Prime Material.
Thus, the should have many of the same characteristics in the same locations, but they might be wildly different. For instance, if one should enter the feywild in a city on top of a mountain, one might well end up on the top of a MUCH higher mountain, and you are in the frozen, fragmented ruins of a city abandoned for millennia.
Exactly.
As for the Astral Plane and the Elemental Sea, they are not coterminus. The Elemental Sea is the primal forge of existence, while the Astral has long been described as the space between existence, where time has no meaning.
Not exaclty. 4e's Astral Sea isn't the same as the previous edition's Astral Plane. The Astral Sea is more like the Outer Planes, whereas the Elemental Chaos is like the Inner Planes affected by Chaos.
Anyway, regarding Faerie, I can also recommend Dicefreaks' Songs of the Sidhe. Well, it's far from complete, but their approach is very interesting.
Both the Feywild and the Shadowfel mirror ALL prime worlds (or, at least, most). They are mirrors of the Prime Material, not just a single sphere. However, it isn't seperated into different planets as the Prime is - both are all the worlds rolled together into a chaotic landscape.
However, it is about 1/10 scale of the Prime material, so if you know of gates, you can travel MUCH FASTER through either to get somewhere (see the Moonshae novels, where they travel through Faerie). This also means if you travel long and far enough, you can come out in a different world (that to make the 3e lore concerning the Plane of Shadows consistent, along with the fact that nearly every world borders 'Faerie').
I also still use the Ethereal Plane, but have managed to work it into the 4e lore and make it somewhat consistent with older material. What we knew as the 'Ethereal' was really the same place as the Phlogiston (sometimes called Arcane space). The 'Near Ethereal' was the same as the region called by Spelljammers 'Wild Space'. The Ethereal Plane is a borderland between the Realm of Shadows (Shadowfel) and the Feywild. In some place it is very thin, and one can walk from one of those planes into the other without even noticing. The Border Ethereal is the point at which that border (the Ethereal) touches the prime material. This border Realm is sometimes known as 'the wood between the worlds', or 'the Mittlemarch' by mortals. Some folks, like seers, mystics, wiseman/woman, and other 'gifted' individuals can see into this 'Border Ethereal'.
The Border Ethereal appears to envelope each world, and is the intersecting point of the Prime, Feywild, and Shadowfel, and there are even people who have settled there over time (strange mortals and outsiders). It exists in a perpetual twilight, and has much of the same terrain features as a normal world (in fact, it is the same world - those folks are just living in the shadowy border area where most folks aren't aware of them (but you sometimes can catch a glimpse of them out of the corner of your eye). The problem with living there is that you are visible to anyone with 'second sight', which includes Fey and most sentient undead, and they can 'see' you even from the Shadowfel or the Feywild, which means you can easilly attract unwanted attention from denizens of those regions.
Beings who sail between worlds, or even 'walk' (Planeswalkers, Amberites) often do so by taking the true Ethereal plane, avoiding entering either the Feywild or the Shadowfel until their destinaion is reached (and then they briefly pass through those planes - the border ethereal - to reach the world they want).
Ergo, the Ethereal is the border plane for all other planes, and the border Ethereal is just the section that overaps each plane (making it not a true plane, but rather an amalgam of the two it borders in that region). Since the Feywild, Prime Material, and Shadowfel all 'overlap' (exist at different quantum wavelengths), that means the Ethereal (and its border-areas) are both infinite, and at the same time infinitisimally small (you can pass through without even noticing at certain 'close points', or spend several lifetimes in it, wandering lost).
Such is the confusing nature of the universe.
As for the Astral - thats just as it says it is... that acts as the border between the Prime Planes (which include the Feywild, Mortal World, Shadowfel, etc, etc), the higher planes (both celestial and infernal), and the lower planes (Elemental). In fact, the only two planes that can't be reached from each other via the Ethereal and Astral are those two planes themselves - they touch everywhere but each other (think of the Ethereal as a local main road, and the Astral as a super-highway - you need to cut through a 'neighborhood' to get from one to the other).
Here's how I picture it, all things considered -
Both the Feywild and the Shadowfel mirror ALL prime worlds (or, at least, most). They are mirrors of the Prime Material, not just a single sphere. However, it isn't seperated into different planets as the Prime is - both are all the worlds rolled together into a chaotic landscape.
However, it is about 1/10 scale of the Prime material, so if you know of gates, you can travel MUCH FASTER through either to get somewhere (see the Moonshae novels, where they travel through Faerie). This also means if you travel long and far enough, you can come out in a different world (that to make the 3e lore concerning the Plane of Shadows consistent, along with the fact that nearly every world borders 'Faerie').
I also still use the Ethereal Plane, but have managed to work it into the 4e lore and make it somewhat consistent with older material. What we knew as the 'Ethereal' was really the same place as the Phlogiston (sometimes called Arcane space). The 'Near Ethereal' was the same as the region called by Spelljammers 'Wild Space'. The Ethereal Plane is a borderland between the Realm of Shadows (Shadowfel) and the Feywild. In some place it is very thin, and one can walk from one of those planes into the other without even noticing. The Border Ethereal is the point at which that border (the Ethereal) touches the prime material. This border Realm is sometimes known as 'the wood between the worlds', or 'the Mittlemarch' by mortals. Some folks, like seers, mystics, wiseman/woman, and other 'gifted' individuals can see into this 'Border Ethereal'.
The Border Ethereal appears to envelope each world, and is the intersecting point of the Prime, Feywild, and Shadowfel, and there are even people who have settled there over time (strange mortals and outsiders). It exists in a perpetual twilight, and has much of the same terrain features as a normal world (in fact, it is the same world - those folks are just living in the shadowy border area where most folks aren't aware of them (but you sometimes can catch a glimpse of them out of the corner of your eye). The problem with living there is that you are visible to anyone with 'second sight', which includes Fey and most sentient undead, and they can 'see' you even from the Shadowfel or the Feywild, which means you can easilly attract unwanted attention from denizens of those regions.
Beings who sail between worlds, or even 'walk' (Planeswalkers, Amberites) often do so by taking the true Ethereal plane, avoiding entering either the Feywild or the Shadowfel until their destinaion is reached (and then they briefly pass through those planes - the border ethereal - to reach the world they want).
Ergo, the Ethereal is the border plane for all other planes, and the border Ethereal is just the section that overaps each plane (making it not a true plane, but rather an amalgam of the two it borders in that region). Since the Feywild, Prime Material, and Shadowfel all 'overlap' (exist at different quantum wavelengths), that means the Ethereal (and its border-areas) are both infinite, and at the same time infinitisimally small (you can pass through without even noticing at certain 'close points', or spend several lifetimes in it, wandering lost).
Such is the confusing nature of the universe.
As for the Astral - thats just as it says it is... that acts as the border between the Prime Planes (which include the Feywild, Mortal World, Shadowfel, etc, etc), the higher planes (both celestial and infernal), and the lower planes (Elemental). In fact, the only two planes that can't be reached from each other via the Ethereal and Astral are those two planes themselves - they touch everywhere but each other (think of the Ethereal as a local main road, and the Astral as a super-highway - you need to cut through a 'neighborhood' to get from one to the other).
That's just brilliant!
And the mention of Amberites, awesome! :D Thanks.
C.
Whenever someone travels 'through' Faerie, be it in an FR novel (like those Moonshae ones, or any of the lore surrounding the Lythari), or a novel/story/fairytale set elsewhere, they travel MUCH quicker - Faerie is used as a 'shortcut'.
So if everything in the prime is mirrored in the Feywild, and folks travel much further relative to their starting and ending positions in the prime, then the terrain must be on a smaller scale (a mountain that appears to be ten miles away in Faerie is really only about a mile).
The only other explanation is that folks are moving quicker, which is also reasonable and could be just as interesting (we have the canon 'quicklings', and I also thought that Faerie was the 'plane of life' itself, representing the primal forces of life, which could possibly mean folks are 'energized' when they are there).
So you can make a ten-day trip (approximately) in about a day if you happen to know where a couple of Faerie portals are located (look for mushroom circles). ;)
This is also helpful to DMs who want to get their parties somewhere faster, or want them to travel to another world entirely (using the Feywild as a transitive plane). It also adds to the 'mystique' of Fey, who always seem to be one step ahead of mortals.
Time also functions differently, which could be yet a third explanation, although even if time flowed faster, it's all relative and people experiencing it would still age and feel like that amount of time passed while in Faerie... even if only a 1/10 of that time passed on Toril (which is why I think it is a 'distance' thing, and not a 'time' thing).
Faerie also acts very much like a self-aware demiplane (like Ravenloft), and now that Ravenloft has been rolled-into the Shadowfel, it really does make sense that the two are like a 'light' and 'dark' mirror of the 'real world'.
Just as RL is known for sending out it's 'mists' to capture unwary mortals (and even gods!), so to does Faerie, but in even subtler ways (hills and 'enchanted forests' that appear overnight, and are gone the next day). Perhaps there are 'Fey Powers' very similar to RL's 'Dark Powers'... maybe those are 4e's Arch-Fey.
Or maybe the Feywild and the Shadowfel are really just two sides of the same coin... Unseelie fey have to come from somwhere....
Whenever someone travels 'through' Faerie, be it in an FR novel (like those Moonshae ones, or any of the lore surrounding the Lythari), or a novel/story/fairytale set elsewhere, they travel MUCH quicker - Faerie is used as a 'shortcut'.
-According to Elaine, who created that schpiel with the Lythari, Ganamede (Sp?) and all other Lythari are simply accessing portals that exist throughout the Material Plane leading to the Plane of Faerie. Just like dogs have sharper senses than Humans, Lythari have sharper senses than Elves. They "find" portals where others "can't", and proceed to open them.
Edit: Never mind, I need to stop telling people how to run their games.
-4e claims another victim. I kid, I kid. ;) :P
Edit: Never mind, I need to stop telling people how to run their games.
Awww. I'd happily vote you in as Iron Fisted Dictator of Gaming if you could force everyone to play the way you wanted them to.
Whenever someone travels 'through' Faerie, be it in an FR novel (like those Moonshae ones, or any of the lore surrounding the Lythari), or a novel/story/fairytale set elsewhere, they travel MUCH quicker - Faerie is used as a 'shortcut'.
Ah, that's like in the Dresden Files where they travel through the Nevernever (winter fae). From Chicago to Edinburgh in minutes.
And that still works with what LK said about Lythari - they 'sniff out' one gate, go through it, and then come-out a few hours later on the other side of Faerûn.
So, for all we know, there is only one very large clan of Lythari, but they can be anywhere rather quickly, leading to the misconception that there are lots of them.
Note: I've modified my thoughts on the cosmology quite a bit with the coming of 4e... I sill prefer for Faerie to be a demiplane (just like Ravenloft), but I have to take into account the new lore, so now I'm envisioning Faerie as just a piece of the Feywild - a wayward demi-plane that is always in conjunction with the rest of the Feywild, and yet also functions as an independent demi-plane (which is how I also see the relationship between Ravenloft and the Plane of Shadows) which also goes in-and-out of conjuction with multiple prime worlds.
Hmmmm... can Planes have children?
Tough I'd say that travelling the planes depends on belief, not distance. Tough that's old, now the planes are finite.
So if I merge that with what I said above, then a demi-plane could be the dreams of a dead god 'borrowing' material from a plane close to it's own outlook and creating something new... a 'child' if you will, of both the 'parent plane' and the subconcious thoughts of a comatose god.
Creation and 'rebirth' through death and corruption... another fairly universal concept - the cyclic nature of the universe.
Not Galactus? :P
Heck, it's even allowed in the real world thanks to Hawking's theories. Of course it's still theoretical physics, but some general relativity/quantum gravity theories allow for bubble universes. The only problem is that those bubble universes would be undedectable by any means available to humanity at the moment (in other words, nobody's figured out a do-able way to find one or prove they exist).
So, for all we know, there is only one very large clan of Lythari, but they can be anywhere rather quickly, leading to the misconception that there are lots of them.
-Being as minimalistic as possible, there'd have to be at least two- the "regular" Lythari, seen in Elaine Cunningham's work, and the "Eastern" Lythari, seen in Mark Sehestedt's work. Those two groups are too culturally dissimilar to be the same. Other than those two, though, until we get more about other Lythari, all others can theoretically be put into one of those two groups.
Demiurge?
Not Galactus? :P
Only in the surviving part. He's interesting from what I can see on wiki, I know next to nothing about comics. I've come up with this origin myth cause of wanted to connect the leshay myth, Ladinion and Shar and Selune. It's also has the Phoenix and the Cthulhustuff.
NOT!!! :P
-I like the concept of using Galactus as a D&D-type divine entity thing, though. I've just inserted 'Galahktus' into my own setting, embodying destruction, and 'Phoenix', embodying preservation.
the demiurge I use doesn't need sustenance, it's the whole self-sustaining multiverse (prison), a silent uninvolved tyrant, tough it prefers energies of fear, what the Athar call the Great Unknown or the Source for Godsmen
it is based on the concept of Maya, the Illusion, the light and the dark, Shar and Selune would be like heralds, I guess, they are quite changed, long story
-I like the concept of using Galactus as a D&D-type divine entity thing, though. I've just inserted 'Galahktus' into my own setting, embodying destruction, and 'Phoenix', embodying preservation.
'Galactus as a D&D-type divine entity thing' ;)
long story
Sounds interesting, so please feel free to explain this to me/us.
Just for the few who didn't know who (or what) we were talking about. :D
;)
... long story
I'm curious too, care to expand ...
..., I guess, they are quite changed, long story
I'm curious too, care to expand ...
I'll third this! :D
Please & thank you.
'Galactus as a D&D-type divine entity thing' ;)
-Awesome.
Is that the new name for the Para-Elemental Plane of Ash? :P
Otherwise know as "The Sea of Smelly Butts".
