After looking through the Player's Handbook and the FR Player's Guide, I was surprised, disappointed, and bewildered about a few things regarding race, but for the most part for some reason I didn't have TOO much of a problem with the way that elves were done. (and these "eladrin" will always be elves to me)
The thing is, I think that the racial stat bonuses for the elves are somewhat reasonable.
I guess I'll start with Moon Elves and Sun Elves. First of all, I'm not trying to say that the adhering to the eladrin stat bonuses for silver and gold elves in the Realms is entirely logical. But based on what I know, it CAN make some shred of sense if you aren't too conservative.
I've read a few novels, and based on what I have read the biggest difference between the moon and sun elves is cultural. I haven't really read anything that makes it plain and obvious that sun elves are more intelligent than moon elve. More sophisticated, perhaps. More "cultured" maybe. But I feel that the capacity for logic and reasoning has not been clearly defined in regards to each other. We know that sun elves tend to be more persistant in their crafts and practices, and we know that moon elves are more likely to dabble in multiple pursuits, but basically I think that their is a possibility that the difference in the natural dexterity and intelligence of gold and silver elves isn't plainly significant enough to warrant different stat bonuses. I guess my biggest thing is that they are both races of magic. In 3E wizard was the favored class for both sub-races. Whether one race typically has the patience to stay that course or not doesn't define such differences in my opinion. In general, you might say they have more in common with each other in that department than the next two elf sub-races.
Okay, I don't really care about wild elves. I was never really interested in them, but to me in 3E the dex bonus and int penalty on them was reasonable at best.
However I was less than enthusiastic about what was done with wood elves. To be honest I hated their stat bonuses/penalties, and I had always thought that due to the ranger favored class, the higher ratio of druids amongst them, and their general affinity for nature should have granted them something more like a wisdom bonus to replace the str bonus and cha penalty. Well, in 4E, they have that, and it doesn't bother me because in the novels I couldn't find anything that makes it clearly known that wood elves are less intelligent. Not only such, but they are no longer less intelligent than humans. Remember, before they were on the same level as orcs and half-orcs who were characterized as being forever challenged by simple grammar and habitually made doltish decisions(albeit goblins were often similair in manner).
The drow are another story. In the novels they were often charismatic, intelligent, and possessed all the dexterity of a moon elf. What is important to keep in mind is that in novels the majority of the dark elves that you read about are nobles. In dark elf society, it's far more common for noble houses to rise and fall because of the constant strife. The ones that are made of the best stuff are usually the ones that belong to a noble house. In order to obtain such power, logical scheming is nearly a must. So, I guess you could say that the drow didn't clearly possess superior mental faculties as a genetic trait so much as the characters that were in power HAPPENED to lean towards that tendancy simply because of the environment weeding out those that weren't gifted in such a way.
However as I said, the most important thing to remember is that the majority of drow are not of noble blood and as such are less likely to be targets that need these adaptations in order to survive. The inherent charisma bonus is still there however. Perhaps that could be explained as centuries of being diplomatic(and deceptive) in a tense atmosphere and the need to bargain with other deep dwelling creatures in order to survive.
I say all this because I think that every D&D edition has had its own way of being able to interpret the novels, and vice versa. The biggest limiting factor that we are faced with is an insistence to provide each race in the PHB with a +2 to two different stats, no more and no less(with the exception being humans), and that no combination of those stats can be used twice. The fact that tieflings and dragonborn were included as common races crowded the options that might have been provided to other races which I believe should have had priority. It also doesn't help that there are no more level adjustments, such as for creatures that should be generally more powerful than the classic races, such as tiefling and genasi. Although I won't complain about the genasi because I couldn't stand the way they were designed in 3E.
So what do you all think? I want opinions on this. To be honest I use this line of reasoning as a defense mechanism against the voice in the back of my head that is screaming about how terribly wrong all this is. But I still want some opinions and other peoples thoughts on the matter.
I've been away from D&D for a while and I really want to like this new edition.
What happened to elves in the Realms for 4E is the least of my complaints.Anyway, my Realms will never use the 4E changes, but I'd happily use these elves in some other 4E game. The new version of elves (fey) is just as valid as any other RPG interpretation of them.
I simply needed to get that rant out though. My first post in a very long time in these forums had to be really long for some reason. I used to go by the screen name of Yokinobu but I don't think anyone remembers me. The few OGs whose screen names I remember were The Simbul, Karsus the Mad, Masakado(a LONG time ago), (something) Dan, and of course Lord Karsus.
By the way Lord Karsus I like what you have in the way of lore on the Elves of the Realms. Is the netbook the book that you are referring to?
I don't think I would mind different races having the same ability modifiers if they had different skill bonuses or racial abilities.
By the way Lord Karsus I like what you have in the way of lore on the Elves of the Realms. Is the netbook the book that you are referring to?
-Yes, Elves of Faerûn, which will one day be completed, and one day made into a .PDF file. One day.
Just ignore it, and it changes nothing - you can still use the 4e Eladrin stats for your Sun, Moon, and Star Elves, and no-one is forcing anyone to use WotC's silly new lingo.
Ironically, the FRPG makes it all crystal clear. More power to the players, I guess.
As to the OP's question: Heck yeah, I still like the elves. I like 'em even more, you might say. They have another layer added on to them thanks to the return of the Feywild. Truly ancient elven lineages and all that.
-That's what I know Iluvrien, and to a lesser extent, myself, are worried about. The continual progression until the terms 'Moon Elves', 'Sun Elves', and so on, are more or less replaced, and another unique feature of the setting is replaced with the generic blanket term 'Eladrin', in such that people know them primarily as 'Eladrin', and secondarily- if they know at all- as 'Moon Elves', 'Sun Elves', and so on.
I suspet as much as well. It would certainly be in keeping with the new "streamlined streamlined streamlined, I could have said streamlined once" design philosophy. I'd wager than in 9 years or so, when we get the next overhaul, the subraces will just be left out entirely.
I suspet as much as well. It would certainly be in keeping with the new "streamlined streamlined streamlined, I could have said streamlined once" design philosophy. I'd wager than in 9 years or so, when we get the next overhaul, the subraces will just be left out entirely.
-Well, they are already left out, technically, in that all that defines an Sun Elf from a Moon Elf from a Star Elf, and so on, mechanically, in D&D stats, is an optional feat in the FRPG.
-Well, they are already left out, technically, in that all that defines an Sun Elf from a Moon Elf from a Star Elf, and so on, mechanically, in D&D stats, is an optional feat in the FRPG.
Which is why I suspect. Subraces can definatly be said to be on the way out. Something which was a big deal, in terms of both mechanics and fluff, is now just a minor quirk in the way it is presented in crunch and in lore (granted, the fluff is still technically there, its just not represented fully).
So we end up this this;
Previously, Subrace = very important
Now, Subrace = not so important
Future, Subrace = ???
Its anyone's guess, but my money is on subraces just being left out in future versions of the setting. I mean, when the current setting/rules were being worked on, you can be sure the designers didn't think about bringing back old stuff that had been previously phased out, like dwarven magic resistance and inability to cast spells. So, its a fair bet that the designers of tommorow won't be looking to what used to be a big deal as something to give major representation to.
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Lest I be accused of derailing or the like, in response to the OP; yes I do still like Elves, though I feel they are being, for lack of a better word, diminished.
-Well, they are already left out, technically, in that all that defines an Sun Elf from a Moon Elf from a Star Elf, and so on, mechanically, in D&D stats, is an optional feat in the FRPG.
I guess it depends on how players perceive mechanics as the true means of defining racial differences as opposed to the racial lore in the sourcebooks.
The lore in the FRPG is quite clear about the differences between Sun and Moon elves.
Will that be enough, I wonder?
What I'm trying to say is that... In 3.X we had Moon Elves which had the basic elven stats, and the Sun Elves which had a bonus to Intelligence rather than Dexterity. Now we have a race that is elven in all aspects save the name, and has bonuses to Intelligence and Dexterity. I think it works for those guys. (Or were Sun Elves identical to the MM's Grey Elves? I can't remember.)
Wood Elves and Wild Elves were done well, too.
I'm not saying that it used to be too-cluttered. I'm saying that I like having the best of both worlds, and it makes things simpler to boot. I always liked having cultural differences rather than mechanical ones anyway.
One thing that makes me sad, though, is the lack of an actual Star Elf feat. I loved those guys.
Subraces being mechanically different is a different story. The proliferation of subraces was one of the biggest problems with 3.5E, and this was a D&D problem, not just a Forgotten Realms problem.
Doing it with feats is a great compromise.
I think subraces are a good thing from a setting or fluff perspective. Sun Elves, Star Elves, Moon Elves, its all good. The more cultures, the better. Differences in appearance, more the better. If Forgotten Realms would introduce a new subrace(s) of elf(elves) that come from the newly accessable Feywild(ancient bloodlines never before seen in Faerun), I couldn't be happier.
Subraces being mechanically different is a different story. The proliferation of subraces was one of the biggest problems with 3.5E, and this was a D&D problem, not just a Forgotten Realms problem.
Doing it with feats is a great compromise.
That's basically what I was trying to say.
Thank you very much for putting words in my mouth. :P
-That's what I know Iluvrien, and to a lesser extent, myself, are worried about.
Excellent! I am here even when I am not :D .
-Well, they are already left out, technically, in that all that defines an Sun Elf from a Moon Elf from a Star Elf, and so on, mechanically, in D&D stats, is an optional feat in the FRPG.
Is specifying a sub-race (in terms of feats) optional? I mean if a player, during character creation, said "I want to be an Eladrin" would any of the DMs here (including Misc and thecasualoblivion for interest's sake) say "Ok, what sub-race?". I am just curious as to whether that distinction would be enforced or whether a "floating" sub-race would be permitted/encouraged.
Purely for the sake of interest of course.
Excellent! I am here even when I am not :D .
Is specifying a sub-race (in terms of feats) optional? I mean if a player, during character creation, said "I want to be an Eladrin" would any of the DMs here (including Misc and thecasualoblivion for interest's sake) say "Ok, what sub-race?". I am just curious as to whether that distinction would be enforced or whether a "floating" sub-race would be permitted/encouraged.
Purely for the sake of interest of course.
The feats are optional. You can be a Sun Elf, and not take the Sun Elf feat. As for being a DM, if I am running a serious, ongoing campaign, I want to know who your character is and where they came from. That would automatically include whether you are a Sun, Moon, or Star Elf if you are Eladrin. If somebody wasn't sure at character creation which feat they wanted, I'd tell them to make a character whose two parents were Sun and Moon Elves respectively, and that theyn could pick one of the feats later on, but not both. That would be the only circumstance where I would allow a "floating" sub-race.
I mean if a player, during character creation, said "I want to be an Eladrin" would any of the DMs here (including Misc and thecasualoblivion for interest's sake) say "Ok, what sub-race?". I am just curious as to whether that distinction would be enforced or whether a "floating" sub-race would be permitted/encouraged.
There are two Eladrins in my 4E Realms game.
I never asked what subrace they were when those characters were created.
One of my players made a point on his own of specifying he was running a moon elf character, but that owed to the fact that his character was descended from a moon elf father (who was a character in our 3E game).
I'll let the other player figure it out as he goes along.
I shall mull it over.
Thanks guys for taking the time to answer me.
No problem.
Ask me about either of my Realms campaigns and I could talk all day.
;)
Any changes that are made were fine with me.
So what exactly is the story for this drastic mechanical shift?
This isn't to say that I dislike it, I think it makes Eladrin more magical and fey-like, like mythological elves, instead of just being pretty and aloof. I'm just curious as to what FR is saying to integrate the mechanic.
Here's a question, and I haven't seen any mention of it in the FRPG. How is the setting explaining the ability of Eladrin (Sun, Moon, and Star Elves) to Feystep? On the one hand, the fluff of Feystep can be changed to describe a great leap or burst of speed, but since the Feywild has been reintroduced as the returned homeland of the Elven races I doubt they're doing that.
So what exactly is the story for this drastic mechanical shift?
This isn't to say that I dislike it, I think it makes Eladrin more magical and fey-like, like mythological elves, instead of just being pretty and aloof. I'm just curious as to what FR is saying to integrate the mechanic.
-Because of the Spellplague, the Plane of Faerie (which was coterminous with the Material Plane to begin with, but) is now closer than it ever was, in terms of measuring the figurative, metaphorical distance between different planes of existence. This has "kick fired" the supposed ability that the Elves' have always had, and thus, they are able to freely teleport to the Plane of Faerie now.
...the supposed ability...[emphasis mine--CR]
Eh?
Eh?
I think LK was referring to the idea that sun elves and moon elves have always had the aforementioned Feystep ability (ie. it was latent, but now is in full effect).
-Yes. To have continuity make sense, the Elves have always had this ability, but it was simply dormant. But, no previous sources hint at such a thing. So, supposedly, Elves had this ability in the past.
-Yes. To have continuity make sense, the Elves have always had this ability, but it was simply dormant. But, no previous sources hint at such a thing. So, supposedly, Elves had this ability in the past.
Oh, sure, gotcha. Though, like the man said--or, more properly, as recorded by Lhaeo, Scribe to the sage Elminster of Shadowdale, 30th and last day of Nightal, Year of the Prince, 1357 Dalereckoning--"On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true...As you adventure in this fantasy world, be warned that not all things are as they appear..." (Greenwood, Grubb, and Martin; Cyclopedia of the Realms, 1987).
After all, if every detail had to fall in line with something hinted at in previous lore, we'd run out of new stuff to write novels and game design pieces about about pretty quick. The list of characters, places, plots, abilities, monsters, and so on that are now much beloved canon, but which weren't hinted at in the beginning is... wow, that'd make a pretty long list, eh?
And oh yeah, let me stand up and be counted. I still like elves!
Oh, sure, gotcha. Though, like the man said--or, more properly, as recorded by Lhaeo, Scribe to the sage Elminster of Shadowdale, 30th and last day of Nightal, Year of the Prince, 1357 Dalereckoning--"On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true...As you adventure in this fantasy world, be warned that not all things are as they appear..." (Greenwood, Grubb, and Martin; Cyclopedia of the Realms, 1987).
-Third edition sourcebooks are told in the omniscient third.
-Third edition sourcebooks are told in the omniscient third.
Cool, cool. But a house style decision surely doesn't mean that the lore they contain is meant to be taken as complete or finished in the sense that nothing that comes after--or before--must be based on, or somehow answer something that they clearly contain. That wouldn't make for good storytelling or gaming either one.
18DELTA
:D 
-Because of the Spellplague, the Plane of Faerie (which was coterminous with the Material Plane to begin with, but) is now closer than it ever was, in terms of measuring the figurative, metaphorical distance between different planes of existence. This has "kick fired" the supposed ability that the Elves' have always had, and thus, they are able to freely teleport to the Plane of Faerie now.
Yeah, this is what I figured the party line was. Works for me.
I, too, love me some 4e Eladrin/Elves.
Usually with a little Barbecue sauce. ;)
18DELTA
On a related note, I find it really hard picturing Sun Elves and Moon Elves all having funky glowing Eladrin eyes. I am too set in my ways on that one, I think. Heh.
Same here, although I don't think I'd put 4E eladrin in my Realms anyway, so...
Same here, although I don't think I'd put 4E eladrin in my Realms anyway, so...
Me neither, to be honest. Might use the stats, if I ever run of 4e game in my Realms (though I would use my timeline), but things like glowing eyes and the word "eladrin" are not something I am particularly motivated to use.
Slightly off topic point. I can understand the general motivation for splitting elves in general into these two races. I also found I had the problem, when worldbuilding, of reconcilling elves' "nature-ness" vs. their "wizardness" without resorting to using subraces (eventually I solved my issue there for my homebrew world, though it required me to ditch the druid class). So I don't particularly dislike the idea of Eladrin, in case I have given that impression. I think the implementation a bit weird, but the race doesn't bother me.
).The "pupil-lessness" in a couple of the latter pieces could be said to make things a little glowy, I guess, but even there I just took that as artistic license (since they're not blue, violet or green--unless they're very light shades of those colors). And the figures in the illustration in the PHB don't have glowing eyes, at least not in my copy.
Pearls and opals don't glow, and that's what "pearly" and "opalescent" mean, right? Having characteristics of those stones?
Just out of curiosity, where are folks getting this "glowing eyes" stuff? The PHB description of their eyes says that they "are pearly and opalescent orbs of vibrant blue, violet, or green, lacking pupils" (p. 39) and off the top of my head, the illustrations accompany their entry there and those accompanying the "Mithrendain" article in Dragon 366 are the only illustrations we've seen that are for sure Eladrin ('cause, y'know, they look a lot like elves
The "pupil-lessness" in a couple of the latter pieces could be said to make things a little glowy, I guess, but even there I just took that as artistic license (since they're not blue, violet or green--unless they're very light shades of those colors). And the figures in the illustration in the PHB don't have glowing eyes, at least not in my copy.
Pearls and opals don't glow, and that's what "pearly" and "opalescent" mean, right? Having characteristics of those stones?
-When using their Darkvision/Infravision, Drow eyes glowed, in a similar fashion that the 'Eladrin' eyes now appear. It is possible, if not already stated in the texts'.
-When using their Darkvision/Infravision, Drow eyes glowed, in a similar fashion that the 'Eladrin' eyes now appear. It is possible, if not already stated in the texts'.
Sure! We can make 'em shoot beams out of their eyes in terms of our campaigns, or if we write fan fiction or whatever. But in terms of describing what's actually in the lore we want to avoid eisegesis, don't we? Especially when we're answering somebody's question or making statements that might be taken as being presented authoritatively.
And yes, as a painter/decorator/designer I know that something that has a 'Pearl Finish' is both shiney and reflective, and the look to their eyes could simply be a reflection of the available light. In true (cave) darkness, their eyes would NOT glow, because they would have nothing to reflect.
Also, Drow Eyes no longer 'glow in the dark' because true infra-vision was swapped-out for darkvision in 3e.
However, I did try to fix that (just for FR) in my Elven Netbook article by explaining that FR Drow have an additional nictating membrane on their eyes that allows them to switch between Infra-vision and Darkvision, but with each successive generation this trait appears to be disappearing, so by the time 4e comes around almost no Drow will have the Infravision anymore. By opening this extra lid halfway, they are able to use a hybrid form of the vision, allowing them to see color while also using their Infra-vision (but cutting down on the distance).
I had to add that, otherwise Narbondel in Menzoberranzan would make no sense what-so-ever. However, there eyes still do not glow with all that - that was indeed lost with 2e.