I have grown rather irritated by the tedious, repetitive, and illogical claims that Mystra's Chosen, or equally narrowly focused but powerful NPC groups, are somehow an impediment for every DM to deal with, and with the equally tedious, repetitive, and illogical idea-threads for removing, slaying, or neutralizing them simply to address the non-issue of their potential disruption of the campaign. Therefore, rather than dealing with them individually, I will simply put an end to the fallacy here.
According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the population of Faerûn consists 68,000,000 inhabitants. Therefore, in an average Forgotten Realms campaign consisting of four players, there are a minimum number of 67,999,996 corresponding NPCs. According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, 50% of all randomly generated NPCs will be of a chaotic evil, neutral evil, or lawful evil alignment. That in turn means that on average there are 33,999,998 potential NPC villains for a good or neutral oriented party to slay, thwart, or capture; or alternatively for the PCs to be slain, be thwarted, or be captured by.
By contrast, there are 9 named Chosen of Mystra in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and arguably less than 12 (alive, dead, in-between, or otherwise out of the picture) Chosen of Mystra in total who have been named and/or given statistics in subsequent 3E/3.5 official Forgotten Realms accessories and web enhancements.
Therefore, not only do we have the statistically illogical possibility of the Player Characters ever randomly encountering, being aided, or being confronted by such a character, we likewise have the supremely illogical possibility of such NPCs acting as an automatic impediment, plot-foil, or spotlight stealer for the adventure, or as the only line of defense against the forces of evil.
Even if each of the 9 named and listed Chosen of Mystra in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting suddenly and illogically chose to drop everything at hand and devote ALL their efforts to tracking down, ambushing, and neutralizing 1 random evil aligned NPC villain per day---be it a 2nd level Aristocrat who has imprisoned the 1st level party, or a 30th level archwizard who could one day threaten Faerûn itself---it would take them 10,350 years to kill every evil being in Faerûn who had been in existence at the time they began such an endeavor. Incidentally, in a fraction of that time frame the entire population of evil beings in Faerûn would have been replaced as more beings are born (whose alignments will be just as random as those who had birthed them), and in turn gain experience and power over the years, and fill the vacant roles of conqueror king, corrupt baroness, thief extraordinaire, vile cultist, foul necromancer, or any of a dozen fantasy campaign villain clichés.
That of course is ignoring the rather obvious fact that non-player characters of the power and position of Mystra’s Chosen have an infinite number of other things that aught to be occupying their time, apart of single-handedly "ruining" an adventure before it begins; such as ruling a country, and/or heading an organization, and/or instructing apprentices, and/or creating new spells and magic items, and/or tending to the Weave, and/or pursuing the goals of their patron Goddess, and/or dealing with their own agendas, foes, and goals (as opposed to the agendas, foes, and goals of the PCs), or even in the case of a few of the Chosen--the rather simplified daily agenda that comes with being outright dead.
Apparently it is too much to ask for the endless throngs of Mystra-haters to actually read the "Concerns of the Mighty" or the "Make the PCs the Stars" sections of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Instead we on these boards and other avenues of realms discussion endure an endless stream of player/DM-contrived scenarios where they are explained out of the adventure, explained out of the story, or simply killed off altogether, when not one of the above is ever a necessary or rational approach to dealing with the phantom "problem" of their existence.
If you are a DM and the Chosen of Mystra are a “problem” in your campaign, either as potential insurmountable adversaries for your evil player characters, or as potential plot-foil and/or spotlight thief for your good player characters, then you only have yourself to blame, because the rules, guidelines, and demographics of the Forgotten Realms ensure that they reliably won't be.
If you are a player, and the Chosen of Mystra are a “problem” in your campaign, either as potential insurmountable adversaries for your evil characters, or as potential plot-foil and/or spotlight thief for your good characters, then you need to find a DM who has read the books necessary for running a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, namely the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and/or a DM who doesn't have a fixation for using Iconic NPCs as "DMPCs", and/or a DM who understands that events found in novels focused on a given character, or massive realms-shaking events that might occur in others, are in no way representative of consistent daily life in Faerûn (for adventurers or otherwise).
Lastly, if you are a novel reader, and the Chosen of Mystra are seen as a “problem” in your ability to enjoy reading them, then a simple suggestion would be to exercise the minimal amount of common sense to not purchase novels with the names or likenesses of the Chosen of Mystra on the cover, in the title, or mentioned somewhere on the back cover blurb. It should hardly be an unbearable shock to anyone that a book bearing the name “Elminster” in the title would actually have the (gasp) audacity to show Elminster of Shadowdale as a protagonist and (double-gasp) one who, as one of the most powerful beings in Faerûn, actually succeeds in his endeavors.
Mystra and her Chosen, or arguably any other powerful NPC organization, are not a problem or impediment for enjoying the Forgotten Realms. By contrast, it would be players, DMs, and readers who cannot understand simple D&D demographics, and/or who do not read or adhere to the rules and campaign guidelines, who then in turn contrive the false idea that any ability to enjoy a campaign in Faerûn must invariably mean the ad-hoc mass-elimination or mass-omission of a mere handful of NPCs, amidst the massive pool of 68,000,000 others.
-It's only the small minority of bad eggs that has that sentiment, anyway, so I think there is still hope. Education is the key to solving the "problem".
I want to contact you privately regarding a few of the points you've made, as I see some potential use for this particularly thoughtful analysis elsewhere.
Very well spoken there, and sadly necessary.
No other campaign setting I can think of is this a problem as it is in FR.
My solution has been to remove said annoying NPCs (in particular Elminster).
This is for you, enjoy.
(Although the problem you spoke of has not yet surfaced in my campaign - and it will never occur if I continue DMing. Maybe a cameo appearance of one of the Chosen or something like that, but nothing more.)
Apparently it is too much to ask for the endless throngs of Mystra-haters to actually read the "Concerns of the Mighty" or the "Make the PCs the Stars" sections of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Go Simbul Go Simbul Go Simbul Go Simbul The setting is fine, I just have a problem with DMs who write NPCs as PCs and expect the players to fall in love with them.
No other campaign setting I can think of is this a problem as it is in FR.
My solution has been to remove said annoying NPCs (in particular Elminster).
You just read the title of the thread and made a quick reply without reading, read Simbul's post from the first character to the last point, and only after that you can post your comments. I think you should erase that post before somebody else cuts your head.
All hail Simbul, Lady of ownage.
:D
:D
-Bravo.
-It's only the small minority of bad eggs that has that sentiment, anyway, so I think there is still hope. Education is the key to solving the "problem".
If permitted, may I point out the irony of "The Simbul" suddenly appearing in "the Realms" (the FR boards, that is) out of nowhere and yet again "saving the day" with her most awesome powers of persuasion?
I wish we had more posts like this one...
-- George Krashos
! Absolutely wonderful, Simbul!As a matter of fact, I think I'll put a link to this in my signature. Definitely worth letting the folks who think this way but don't visit this chunk of the forum have a chance to see this.
Zevox
I think if I weren't already married I'd probably propose to you at this moment Simbul... but worry not, that'll pass in time.
Seeing as I'm not yet married....
*Kneels and takes Simbul's hand*
Intellegence, passion, logic... I think I'm in love!!
*Bows and disappears.*
The chosens are only 9 persons, but there are hundereds, probably thousands of powerfull NPCs and a even higher number of not so powerfull NPCs.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+ people, retired adventurer tavern owners, dragons and outsiders in disguise and other adventurers that so the PCs are not needed. Why hire the NPCs for a job when there so many adventurers out there which are at a (slightly) higher level anhd/or have a better reputation? Yes you can say that they simply have something else to do or ignore them completly but then you can also say that the PCs are the chosen ones and the only people who can stop big evil X. That is about as creative as ignoring all mid and high level NPCs in the FR is logical.
If you had only limitied yourself to the chosens I would agree, but as you include other powerfull NPCs you are imo wrong.
The chosens are only 9 persons, but there are hundereds, probably thousands of powerfull NPCs and a even higher number of not so powerfull NPCs.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+ people, retired adventurer tavern owners, dragons and outsiders in disguise and other adventurers that so the PCs are not needed. Why hire the NPCs for a job when there so many adventurers out there which are at a (slightly) higher level anhd/or have a better reputation? Yes you can say that they simply have something else to do or ignore them completly but then you can also say that the PCs are the chosen ones and the only people who can stop big evil X. That is about as creative as ignoring all mid and high level NPCs in the FR is logical.
All hail Derren, Chosen of Grumbar!
It's because they are RETIRED (you said it), they don't want to adventure anymore, they are tired and/or old. Dragons don't care about others than themselves (even metallic dragons tend to not get involved with the lesser species), the same applies to outsiders who, for the most part, are evil aligned outsiders.
Don't make me smite you with my 10-foot long Quarterstaff of Flamers' Bane.
All hail Derren, Chosen of Grumbar!
It's because they are RETIRED (you said it), they don't want to adventure anymore, they are tired and/or old. Dragons don't care about others than themselves (even metallic dragons tend to not get involved with the lesser species), the same applies to outsiders who, for the most part, are evil aligned outsiders.
Don't make me smite you with my 10-foot long Quarterstaff of Flamers' Bane.
Come on, do it. I have my video came rolling right now.
Come on, do it. I have my video came rolling right now.
I will preffer not having to, the consecuences of unleashing it's power are terrible, if not done right, the staff can create a planar rift that will send us to the paralel universe where flamers are law, and we are criminals.
But my personal opposition to the Chosen, isnt from their existance, but how there are used.Just read some of the statements currently used in some threads, where everything is solved by Chosen intervention.
The theory of mystras power rivaling Ao, because of the Chosens existance, the overuse of the chosen( making appear in most inlikely places, like when durnen&mirt face of a beholder in skullport, whats the point of Els being there), the diference of treatment between mystra and her chosen and other gods and their chosen(personally going to rescue El in Baator), and them some details of their existance that are poorly justified( quilue existance, dove and storm activities-more likely of chosen of torm or tyr than mystra, no chosen are of evil alignment, the existence of the magister(?), the prohibition of simbuls attack Thay-when thay is likely much more important to mystra that aglarond ever was), all are factor to create a sentiment that the chosen are a sort of easy escape from resolving difficult problems.
It's not so much the Chosens existance that annoys most people, i think, but the ill uses that they are given. And that weaken the set as a whole( but i must admit that its not only the Chosen of mystra that cause this, but since they are among the most powerful, it makes then the most visible targets)
I dont dislike Els, Laeral, Alustriel, Your namesake, but i most admit to dislike storm, dove, sylune, and beliave that quilue is a lame atempt to ich together the Chosen to the drow craze. But this is just my personel opinion, and in campaings, i generally choose to ignore the existance of the chosen i dislike, and make a much carefull use of the others.
In the end, each of us are free to use or not whatever we like.
You just read the title of the thread and made a quick reply without reading, read Simbul's post from the first character to the last point, and only after that you can post your comments. I think you should erase that post before somebody else cuts your head.
All hail Simbul, Lady of ownage.
Actually I did read it.
Please don't put words in my mouth. You obviously missed the point of what I posted.
I was agreeing with her and stating why I agree. I didn't want this to be 3+ pages of people riding someone else's coat tails full of people saying one thing -"bravo".
Then again, this might be less to do with the author and more to do with how the editors/publishers wanted particular subject matter covered and what not, but I digress.
There's been a lot of material presented (some of which Simbul covered) on how to integrate said NPCs into your campaign without overshadowing the players. Its a simple case of paying close attention to the fine print or in the absolute worst case scenario, exercising a healthy amount of common sense.
If you had only limitied yourself to the chosens I would agree, but as you include other powerfull NPCs you are imo wrong.
The chosens are only 9 persons, but there are hundereds, probably thousands of powerfull NPCs and a even higher number of not so powerfull NPCs.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+ people, retired adventurer tavern owners, dragons and outsiders in disguise and other adventurers that so the PCs are not needed.
Why hire the NPCs for a job when there so many adventurers out there which are at a (slightly) higher level anhd/or have a better reputation? Yes you can say that they simply have something else to do or ignore them completly but then you can also say that the PCs are the chosen ones and the only people who can stop big evil X. That is about as creative as ignoring all mid and high level NPCs in the FR is logical.
If you had only limitied yourself to the chosens I would agree, but as you dont include other powerfull evil NPCs you are imo wrong.
The chosens are only 9 persons, but there are hundereds, probably thousands of powerfull evil NPCs and a even higher number of not so powerfull evil NPCs.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+evil people, retired evil adventurer tavern owners, evil dragons and evil outsiders in disguise and other evil adventurers that so the PCs are needed.
dove and storm activities-more likely of chosen of torm or tyr than mystra
They are good aligned martial Chosen of a (previously)LN goddess. Hmm.
dove, sylune, and beliave that quilue is a lame atempt to ich together the Chosen to the drow craze
Well, since Quilue has been a drow since well before the drow craze started we'll have to pitch that one out. Dove is rarely heard from and Sylune has been dead since the Grey Box. But as you say, to each their own.
If you had only limitied yourself to the chosens I would agree, but as you dont include other powerfull evil NPCs you are imo wrong.
The chosens are only 9 persons, but there are hundereds, probably thousands of powerfull evil NPCs and a even higher number of not so powerfull evil NPCs.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+evil people, retired evil adventurer tavern owners, evil dragons and evil outsiders in disguise and other evil adventurers that so the PCs are needed.
Some months ago I counted how many high level good and evil NPCs existed in the realms. The result was there were more good than evil NPCs. Sadly I don't have that list anymore. Its somewhere on this board.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+ people, retired adventurer tavern owners, dragons and outsiders in disguise and other adventurers that so the PCs are not needed.
There are many characters of all levels and alignments. Mid-level PCs are only not 'needed' if to be heroic you have to be able to quickly get to be one of the highest-level people in the world. Needed doesn't mean being the only ones who can save All That Is, it means doing your part in the ancient and million-stranded struggle to keep the Realms from sliding into terror and tyranny:
A woman, or a man, may come to hold many treasures in life. Gold, gems, a good name, lovers, good friends, influence, high rank—all of these are of value. All of these most covet. But of them all the most valuable, I tell ye, are friends good and true. Have these, and ye will scarce notice the lack if ye never win aught else.
-- Sharanralee, Ballads And Lore of One Dusty Road
Try as we may, none of us can be in all places at all times. Not even the gods can do that. So we do what we can and measure our success, if we are wise, by what our hearts tell us at the end of a day, and not what our eyes tell us of how much we have changed Faerûn.
-- Storm Silverhand, To Harp at Twilight
Heroism in the Realms is communitarian; 'I am the greatest' megalomaniacs are villains.
Just read some of the statements currently used in some threads, where everything is solved by Chosen intervention.
Why? Those comments are factually wrong, since it isn't.
I dont dislike Els, Laeral, Alustriel, Your namesake, but i most admit to dislike storm, dove, sylune, and beliave that quilue is a lame atempt to ich together the Chosen to the drow craze. But this is just my personel opinion . . .
No, it's a mistake of fact and an insult to Steven Schend.
Why don't the 5th level NPC's solve the problem that the first level PC's are given? Simple, they have things more dangerous to fight now, they have a reputation grander and more diverse than yours and are thus trusted with bigger issues. Then again, maybe there are none in the area, or you happened to be the first able bodied group to come through. Maybe the last group perished, as adventuring parties tend to. Given two years, an adventuring party of a dozen will most likely change entirely from the original members. Or maybe, the big bad organization, or guys trying to stop you, ARE the other adventuring party. Not all adventures have to be slay the orc, get the gold.
Then look at the issues at hand. Would you look for something tougher than you could handle? Would you look for work below? If you were getting paid $100,000 a year, would you stop for a minimum wage job shoveling cow manure? I doubt it, so why should the NPC's.
Personally I can't see why they would belittle themselves? An adventurer is someone who heads the call for challenge and excitement. After awhile chopping Kobolds is pretty uninteresting work. "But what about the Lawful good guys?" Well thats simple, they can come and clear up a few kobolds for you, or they can do a real job and stop the plans of a full scale army that going to march on several towns.
Then again, who says that a dozen other adventuring parties aren't doing the same thing as you? Maybe they are succeeding on other fronts, or maybe they have met with failure, humiliation, or even death trying where you have succeeded. Sure they're stronger, so maybe they went right to the source of the issue, while you were scraping at the heels to know what was up. And they obviously didn't succeed.
So instead why don't people start arguing the "Why don't other PC's in other places just do this". It is impossible that everyone in the world is at the same time playing the same level PC. And more than a few games mentioned even on here take place in the same place. So why not other PC's do what you're doing? BECAUSE EVERYONE IS BUSY WITH SOMETHING. Very simple concept. Adventurers don't sit on their thumbs and spin for amusement, they go out and do jobs. So stop expecting that the world will stop for your PC's, and everyone is suddenly being useless cause you came along.
In various novels, said chosen are often used in such manner, and are given the role of a sort of ''police'' for the realms.It's not my opinion that they are a said ''police'', or even that they should be, but that the idea that is understated by various autors, and maybe, just maybe, that why many DM's make use of Chosen in such a way (however wrong that may be).
And Faraer, the fact that i stated an opinion over the creation and concept of Quile, wich you dont agree, doesnt make it an insult to the author, only a critic.If you wish to turn this in to a personel issue, that's your problem not mine. Then again, this isnt the first time you misunderstood my post, so i'am hardly surprised.
I still like to ad that my admiration for the Simbul's post increases, since we may have different opinions about said issue, but her's is the only one that tried to defend her ideas with reason, arguments and logic based on something other then personal likes.
Though I agree. The chosen shouldn't, and from what I've seen aren't any manner of police for every situation. They pop in to deal with threats to the weave from time to time, but sometimes what they do is purely preference. After all, the Simbul likes to have her way with the Mulani, even if they are doing nothing that affects, or directly relates to anything in her life.
I will preffer not having to, the consecuences of unleashing it's power are terrible, if not done right, the staff can create a planar rift that will send us to the paralel universe where flamers are law, and we are criminals.
Then again I never said that the Chosen of mystra solved every problem that arises. But the fact that so many people think it so must make you wonder why?
The fact that people make statements that they truly believe about things that they have limited information about doesn't make me wonder. I've been there. I've read some. Then read some more. Better now. Not finished, but better.
In various novels, said chosen are often used in such manner, and are given the role of a sort of ''police'' for the realms.It's not my opinion that they are a said ''police'', or even that they should be, but that the idea that is understated by various autors, and maybe, just maybe, that why many DM's make use of Chosen in such a way (however wrong that may be).
I agree fully. Note that as much as I like Cormyrean Farmer #2, if the novels written about the Chosen were about him, we wouldn't have a website to be chatting on. Play games from the hardbacks, bring lore from the novels. Just a bit of hardwon XP.
And Faraer, the fact that i stated an opinion over the creation and concept of Quile, wich you dont agree, doesnt make it an insult to the author, only a critic.If you wish to turn this in to a personel issue, that's your problem not mine. Then again, this isnt the first time you misunderstood my post, so i'am hardly surprised.
No, it's a mistake of fact and an insult to Steven Schend.
Boda, from your only reason given(the Drow craze) it is a mistake of fact. I pointed out that there is no factual way that your opinion could be workable in the canon Realms. Faraer reiterated the point. As to insulting Steven, I think he would take it quite well, he's read worse.;)
I still like to ad that my admiration for the Simbul's post increases, since we may have different opinions about said issue, but her's is the only one that tried to defend her ideas with reason, arguments and logic based on something other then personal likes.
Yeah. Logic.
Has the simbuls post stated, the chosen arent solely a group of superpowered being that does things on whim, but agents of the goddess of magic on Faerun, advancing her cause on several fronts, so my question is: What have Dove, Storm and Sylune done recently for mystra cause? Have they developed new magic? Created new magic items? Spread magical knowledge? Engaged in the spreading of the use of magic among the common people? What have they done in mystras cause that wasnt support the other chosen( Els, simbul, alustriel, laeral,..) and adventure around like any other adventuring group around?So they participated in stoping some magicly powerful evils! That doesnt make them any different from many other good align characters!
Why do the chosen present a tendency to linger around Shadowdale? Why there's isnt a single Chosen that has settled himself in the south(below the sea of fallen star area)? Has Mystra no interrest in those regions? Why isnt a chosen with evil alignment(because it would abuse of the power?but the magister wouldnt?)?
If someone knows why, please tell, because i belive that some of these questions go to core of the anti chosen sentiment.
So ok, i admit that there's no actual proof that quilue was created to ich the chosen to the drow craze, still, her character is (by my opinion solely), a very bad idea (so she's a baby that was implanted in a drow but wasnt born half elven like her sisters?, priest of elisstree concerns relate to mystras cause in...?, what action has she took so far to advance. If she was simply a priestress of elistree, that also sister to some chosen of mystra would remove half of my personal dislike of the character. But that not likely to occur.
The only reason I have ever been able to come up with for Q's drow body is that the baby was killed by magic, not physical hardship. The body was sound, the spirit slain. Thus Q.
Has the simbuls post stated, the chosen arent solely a group of superpowered being that does things on whim, but agents of the goddess of magic on Faerun, advancing her cause on several fronts, so my question is: What have Dove, Storm and Sylune done recently for mystra cause? Have they developed new magic? Created new magic items? Spread magical knowledge? Engaged in the spreading of the use of magic among the common people? What have they done in mystras cause that wasnt support the other chosen( Els, simbul, alustriel, laeral,..) and adventure around like any other adventuring group around?So they participated in stoping some magicly powerful evils! That doesnt make them any different from many other good align characters!
If someone knows why, please tell, because i belive that some of these questions go to core of the anti chosen sentiment.
Ah. Back to the fact that people make statements that they truly believe about things that they have limited information about doesn't make me wonder. I've been there. I've read some. Then read some more. Better now. Not finished, but better.
As to this.
Why do the chosen present a tendency to linger around Shadowdale? Why there's isnt a single Chosen that has settled himself in the south(below the sea of fallen star area)? Has Mystra no interrest in those regions? Why isnt a chosen with evil alignment(because it would abuse of the power?but the magister wouldnt?)?
This comes to another point. Often brandished by the young. What you know isn't the ALL. 3 Chosen linger near one of the 3 most powerful underdark entrances situated in the center of the old elven empire that has decided to return and you ask why? Come on. Taken Poly Sci?
Who said there isn't an evil Chosen? Oh my, He, She, It hasn't had a novel written about them(?). Argh. Must not exist. Sometimes the fire is the easiest...I've made the coals big and bright. Lady?
Has the simbuls post stated, the chosen arent solely a group of superpowered being that does things on whim, but agents of the goddess of magic on Faerun, advancing her cause on several fronts, so my question is: What have Dove, Storm and Sylune done recently for mystra cause? Have they developed new magic?
Probably, particularly in Sylune's case (being a Ghost, thus with more time for such things due to lack of need for sleep, less ability to interact with others because of how folks perceive the undead, etc). Thats one of the more basic things they do.
Created new magic items?
Probably, especially with Sylune again. Not sure if Dove has crafting feats, but Storm does, and Sylune likely does being a 20th level wizard. And again, thats a fairly common way of advancing Mystra's interests. El has been known to craft items just to give them out to young spellcasters to encourage them as a way of spreading magic, I don't see why the other Chosen wouldn't do likewise.
Spread magical knowledge?
Probably not in Sylune's case (the whole "being a ghost" thing tends to make apprentices hard to come by), unless shes given out magical items discretely like El is known to do. Pretty likely with the others though. This is one of the main tasks they fulfill for Mystra, after all.
Engaged in the spreading of the use of magic among the common people?
That kinda goes with the previous one, don't you think?
Why there's isnt a single Chosen that has settled himself in the south(below the sea of fallen star area)?
El and the seven sisters were all born in the northern regions. Theres a certain tendency to live in the general chunk of the continent where you were born, last I checked. Sentimental reasons and all that. Not sure about Khelben or the less well-known Chosen though (not even sure where many of them live to be honest).
Has Mystra no interrest in those regions?
Of course she does. Just take a look at the prevalence of wizards and her faith in Halruaa.
Why isnt a chosen with evil alignment(because it would abuse of the power?but the magister wouldnt?)?
Because Sammaster didn't work out so well perhaps? You've gotta expect she learned from that incident.
Zevox
So ok, i admit that there's no actual proof that quilue was created to ich the chosen to the drow craze, still, her character is (by my opinion solely), a very bad idea (so she's a baby that was implanted in a drow but wasnt born half elven like her sisters?, priest of elisstree concerns relate to mystras cause in...?, what action has she took so far to advance mystra cause?). If she was simply a priestress of elistree, that also sister to some chosen of mystra would remove half of my personal dislike of the character. But that not likely to occur.
Qilue was born to a drow female and prominent worshipper of Eilistraee. Elue Shundar, the mortal host of Mystra, died before Mystra/Shundar could carry the seventh child, Qilue, to full term. And so, a new mother had to be found before Mystra's own power consumed the child. Mystra set about looking for another suitable womb for the unborn Qilue, and found Iliryztara Veladorn. Veladorn was also pregnant but her adventuring ways had resulted in the death of her own unborn child -- she was not aware of this however -- and as a result, her own life was threatened because of it. Mystra decided to replace Iliryztara's dead unborn child with Qilue, thus saving both Qilue's and Iliryztara's lives.
However, Eilistraee had plans for Iliryztara and her unborn child. Mystra, thus, sought permission from Eilistraee about whether the Goddess of Mysteries could intervene in Veladorn's life. Eilistraee agreed and Qilue was placed in Iliryztara's womb. When Qilue was born, she was born a drow and servant of both Mystra and Eilistraee.
This is explained fully in Seven Sisters.
Mystra doesn't have many evil chosen because she wants the Chosen to protect all she stands for, and evil alignment and self-sacrifice in the name of the Weave don't mix all that well. Evil alignments tend to be rather selfish in that regard. That, and the Sammaster incident probably made her wary of whom she gifts. However, I think it was mentioned somewhere that the bestowed her favor on other mages - the Blackstaff and Elminster were the only two to prove worthy and continue receiving it.
Anyway, I would suppose that at some point characters who have been active in a Chosen's region might come in contact with them. Still, the chosen have a life and agenda of their own - from trying to enjoy a good meal and taking care of their personal life to checking on the weave and their own agents, so they're not likely to steal the show or decide to wipe the party out at the first possible moment. I'd expect them to show more often as employers (they can't shine everywhere) than rivals, at least until the party hits epic.
Dove, was usually tasked with finding a young worker of magic to teach and foster for every evil mage she took out, often receiving visions of who that person was supposed to be from Azuth. Usually that involved showing them the proper methods of casting a few spells and helping them to get a few spells in their new spellbooks, and them getting them well on their way. Additionally, she seemed to look in on a few of them later on, providing them with additional spells and encouragement, or rebukes and corrections if they went off in a direction she didn't approve of. That's a pretty damned good contribution to the spread of magic, if you ask me anyway.
Storm... well, Storm is Storm, and her doings are way too complicated in the time and space I wish to spend on this. So again, just take a look at the Seven Sisters book and perhaps come away with a better understanding of these NPC's, and much more perspective on the way they are intended to work in the Realms.
Does Iliryztara still live?
Now that is a good question.:D
So, has i've been so frequently replied: We're is your cannon source? If it hasnt been writen, it does not exist so far.
As for the sammaster issue, that doesnt seem to stop the magister from being evil, or members of the church of mystra.Maybe the problem with sammaster wasnt that he was evil, but the fact that he became insane and obcessead with dracoliches. There are a lot of evil members of causes that actually beliave in their causes, and are quite loyal to their patrons. The abussive and backstabbing guy is only one kind of evil. Since mystra cause is, in ultime analisis, neutral, what the problem?
So good guys can be made to follow rules that they dont personally like but bad guy cant?!
Is the Simbul born in east Faerun?
Halruaa is only a specific nation in the south, and not one of the most populous at that.What about Calimshan,Amn, Tethyr,Chessenta,Shaar,Chult, Dragon coast, Vilhon reach, border kingdoms,etc?
So storm is storm. Very definitive and non-explanatory response.
There's been other elvish lands before, and notting sugest that the chosen have ever taken any likewise action to them. Is the explanation is a personal attachment to shadowdale, ok, but 4 of them?! Must be a very peculiar place!
Can your sources of Dove information be named? I sorry to be suspicious, but since someone made a long argument with me about mystras quasioverdeity status, defending it like it had any cannon support, something that later i found out wasnt so, i allways like to check.
What became of Iliryztara after the birth of Qilué, isn't specifically known as I recall, beyond a few tidbits in Seven Sisters and the Heroes' Lorebook.
While I am by no means a Realms know it all. I think that since El raised some of the sisters maybe they were raised in or around shadowdale. Just a thought it may not be very valid at all.
As for the sammaster issue, that doesnt seem to stop the magister from being evil, or members of the church of mystra.
True, but the Magister hasn't been evil for a while (theres a whole debate about whether the evil ones are even effective that exists, and has been done on other threads), and theres a huge difference between being a Chosen and being a lay member of the church (or even a Priest).
There are a lot of evil members of causes that actually beliave in their causes, and are quite loyal to their patrons.
Naturally, but the sort of causes that Mystra wants advanced are much easier to convince good or neutral aligned characters to do than evil. Evil wizards tend to hoard power for themselves, since giving it out to others would be counter-productive from their point of view, creating more rivals for them unless they can keep an iron grip on them (and those who try that usually find its a bit too difficult to do without dominate style magic, which would be counter to Mystra's desires). Goodly characters see helping others as a worthwhile cause in itself, so giving out magic is something they're far more inclined to do.
So good guys can be made to follow rules that they dont personally like but bad guy cant?!
Who said the good guys don't personally believe in Mystra's causes?? If they didn't, they wouldn't be following them. Mystra's not the sort to force people to do things for her. Never has been, and is less so than ever in her current incarnation.
Zevox
Boda:
So, has i've been so frequently replied: We're is your cannon source? If it hasnt been writen, it does not exist so far.
If that's how you view the Realms, it's no wonder that some aspects of them don't seem to make much sense to you.
You really should read more sources, your seeming ignorance about the chosen, mystra, the seven sisters and more really limits your ability to constructively add to this conversation.
I do not intend to be insulting but you really don't seem to have the tools to really understand how these things work.
Reading the Seven Sisters, for one, would answer a large number of the questions you are posing and that's just one of a list of books with the information you are asking about.
Elminster decided to settle in shadowdale because he liked the town and was very close to Myth Drannor, he was the first N'Tel'Quessir to be allowed to live there and he was one of the casters when the Mythal was created, he also spent more than a century living with the elves so he was very attached to that city.
Khelben was born in Myth Drannor and both of them fought in the Weeping War.
As for the sammaster issue, that doesnt seem to stop the magister from being evil, or members of the church of mystra.Maybe the problem with sammaster wasnt that he was evil, but the fact that he became insane and obcessead with dracoliches. There are a lot of evil members of causes that actually beliave in their causes, and are quite loyal to their patrons. The abussive and backstabbing guy is only one kind of evil. Since mystra cause is, in ultime analisis, neutral, what the problem?
So good guys can be made to follow rules that they dont personally like but bad guy cant?!
Sammaster was an obsessive period, if you read the 2e Cult of the Dragon sourcebook. He wasn't evil to be begin with, but I'd say he was probably borderline insane even then, with an extremely obsessive personality from the start. He makes sense really, even if he is an utterly tragic figure.
As to evil among the Chosen, I'd say there almost had to be at least one. No canon references to any like that, but Seven Sisters did hint quite a bit that there were quite a few unnamed ones laying about, and if you read Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, you definitely get a hint that Mystra is not adverse to considering elevating others to Chosen status. At the very least, I'd see her needing one who was willing to get their hands very dirty for the Weave if need be.
Is the Simbul born in east Faerun?
Nope, they (the seven that is) were all born near present day Neverwinter as far as I'm aware. Simbul was handed off to what eventually became the Hathrans of Rashemen if I recall correctly however, and raised by them.
Halruaa is only a specific nation in the south, and not one of the most populous at that.What about Calimshan,Amn, Tethyr,Chessenta,Shaar,Chult, Dragon coast, Vilhon reach, border kingdoms,etc?
Calimshan has a pretty strong Mystran religion, though I think Azuth was slightly more popular. There was a Mystran arcane academy of sorts on the shores of the Deepwash last I checked (Lands of Intrigue boxed set), and Almraiven was something of a haven for Mystrans and Azuthar if I recall the Empires of the Shining Sea sourcbook correctly. Mystra also had several powerful adherents among the nobility in Tethyr as well if you look at Lands of Intrigue, including one of a distinctly evil alignment whose name escapes me at the moment. I'm fairly sure that the Vilhon is not welcoming overly much of her or Azuth, in general, largely due to the lingering effects and memories of the Rotting War. It definitely soiled their reputations there. But do recall that Mystra doesn't have all that many full temples, and that most of the prayers and shrines for her are kept in individual mage's homes, if I recall what Faiths and Avatars said correctly.
So storm is storm. Very definitive and non-explanatory response.
There's been other elvish lands before, and notting sugest that the chosen have ever taken any likewise action to them. Is the explanation is a personal attachment to shadowdale, ok, but 4 of them?! Must be a very peculiar place!
Can your sources of Dove information be named? I sorry to be suspicious, but since someone made a long argument with me about mystras quasioverdeity status, defending it like it had any cannon support, something that later i found out wasnt so, i allways like to check.
As to the response to Storm, take a look at the context there, and note that I said to look it up in Seven Sisters. Storm is a very complicated person with a lot on her plate in a lot of ways. That could be said of most of the Seven really. Everything I said up there is detailed in the Seven Sisters, which should be easy to find as a PDF at Paizo or wherever you choose to spend a few dollars for a download.
As to Shadowdale, it just looked to me as if they simply liked the place, and saw it as a very good location from which to watch over Myth Drannor. The details of it, what few there are, are mostly detailed in, again, the Seven Sisters, so... yeah. If you're really interested in them and Mystra in general and want to find out more, then that book and Secrets of the Magister are your two best sources really.
In regards to Mystra and evil followers - check out City of Splendors: Waterdeep. Make a note of who is the High Priest in the House of Wonder...
Yep, I've been saying "I don't believe it!" for ages about this, since this isn't the first place he's mentioned (try the old City of Splendors boxed set which may or may not be available in PDF format)...
For the book impaired the current High Priest of Mystra in Waterdeep is:
Magister of Mystra Meleghost Starseer (LE male Chondathan necromancer 13/arcane devotee 5)
It makes some amount of sense - aparently Meleghost has been the High Priest since before the Time of Troubles, and therefore originally served the LN Mystra. Of course, now there are rumblings of rebellion amongst the rest of the clergy there, and it looks likely that at some point in the future, someone(s) will attempt to ouster Meleghost.
Note also, that Magister of Mystra is a title. Meleghost isn't actually her Magister. I don't forsee another evil Magister in the near future, given the changes made to the process of choosing a Magister. (Secrets of the Magister would be the book to look for if you're interested in that office and other offices that favoured worshippers might fill.)
Has the simbuls post stated, the chosen arent solely a group of superpowered being that does things on whim, but agents of the goddess of magic on Faerun, advancing her cause on several fronts, so my question is: What have Dove, Storm and Sylune done recently for mystra cause? Have they developed new magic? Created new magic items? Spread magical knowledge? Engaged in the spreading of the use of magic among the common people? What have they done in mystras cause that wasnt support the other chosen( Els, simbul, alustriel, laeral,..) and adventure around like any other adventuring group around?So they participated in stoping some magicly powerful evils! That doesnt make them any different from many other good align characters!
What have they done for Mystra lately? How about this extraordinarily simple, yet widely overlooked duty: they are alive; they exist: Qilue' is a priestess of Eilistraee and has quite obviously furthered the Dark Maiden's cause greatly. There's no debate there. However, none of the others are actually clerics of Mystra or any other deity (with the notable acception of El).
They are Chosen because (and this has been mentioned more than a few times on these boards) they hold a portion of Mystra's power within them. As you can imagine, that's rather precious to her. The fact that they exist at all, and have persevered through all manner of sundry nastiness, (not to mention constant flaming on these boards) consumates Mystra's choice [b]to make them[/b] her Chosen. Certainly, there are several who create and proliferate new magic, however that is the point and purpose of having a Magister and the motivation and inspiration driving uncounted mages across the Realms.
Why do the chosen present a tendency to linger around Shadowdale? Why there's isnt a single Chosen that has settled himself in the south(below the sea of fallen star area)? Has Mystra no interrest in those regions?
Theories on this have been expressed on these boards before as well. Perhaps it's as complicated as the Lady of Mysteries having some vested interest in the region around where her Chosen have settled...or it could be as simple as El looking around and saying, "hey, I like this place", for example. Not to sound like a smarty pants, but I like cookies and cream ice cream...so occasionally I buy it
Why isnt a chosen with evil alignment(because it would abuse of the power?but the magister wouldnt?)?
There is no implied trust in the position of magister. The holder of the office of the Magister gets special powers for whatever reason Mystra deems fit (I don't remember the full logic if any was presented off hand for her creating the office), nearly complete autonomy and one of the largest targets in Toril painted on their backside. Unless the magister actually goes looking for contact with Mystra or manages to severely **** her off, they are granted cool tricks and a license to do what they please till some idiot with the ability to kill them decides how cool, I want a target on MY backside and all I have to do is fry the idiot currently holding it. Chosen come complete with partial immortality, a shard of Mystra's divine power and the understanding that while they great freedom, they are also likely to be her agents on Toril for centuries. It doesn't matter if you don't trust the person you decree to be one of the largest targets on the planet. It does matter if the people you choose to act as your agents on the face of Toril and who you may get stuck using as temporary containers for the majority of your power on Toril temporarily (cough, El and Time of Troubles, cough) can't be trusted as far as you can throw AO. It especially matters when by granting them such a status, you forfeit the ability to safely and easily read their mind without permission which I believe Elminster's Daughter pretty much stated was the case with Chosen.
GothicDan-I'm sorry, i think you misunderstood me.I do accept that someone states a theory about a said issue( i've done so myself), but since some people dont think like so, and do not accept anything that's not cannon stated, that's why i asked for source. Has i was told before, I,we, dont know everything there is in the realms.Sure, but that door opens in two ways.
Faraer-To cast some light about some issues.I'm not claiming, just asking. Another proof that we dont understand each other.
Note that some of my questions have not been repeted, since a good explanation was offered (to my point of view).
Maybe this thread was created so that all the people that share the same opinion about the chosen of mystra could agreed with each other( and so, my assumption that it's purpose was to explain, is wrong.).So i will try not to bother you guys no more(but i suspect that this will become a rather dull thread).
There is no implied trust in the position of magister. The holder of the office of the Magister gets special powers for whatever reason Mystra deems fit (I don't remember the full logic if any was presented off hand for her creating the office), nearly complete autonomy and one of the largest targets in Toril painted on their backside. Unless the magister actually goes looking for contact with Mystra or manages to severely **** her off, they are granted cool tricks and a license to do what they please till some idiot with the ability to kill them decides how cool, I want a target on MY backside and all I have to do is fry the idiot currently holding it. Chosen come complete with partial immortality, a shard of Mystra's divine power and the understanding that while they great freedom, they are also likely to be her agents on Toril for centuries. It doesn't matter if you don't trust the person you decree to be one of the largest targets on the planet. It does matter if the people you choose to act as your agents on the face of Toril and who you may get stuck using as temporary containers for the majority of your power on Toril temporarily (cough, El and Time of Troubles, cough) can't be trusted as far as you can throw AO. It especially matters when by granting them such a status, you forfeit the ability to safely and easily read their mind without permission which I believe Elminster's Daughter pretty much stated was the case with Chosen.
Actually, the office of the Magister has changed. It is no longer "HEY COME AND FRY ME!!!"
But rather, "I'm going to go and spread magic far and wide, teaching as many people about the Art as I can, making sure magical items are available to adventuring bands even if I need to go into a dungeon and put it there in their path, making sure magic has a chance to grow at every turn. I am the Ambassador of the Art, and as such I should present the Art as something to be loved, not feared. And I do this because Azuth said I should, and gave me the powers to do it."
The former was good for spreading magic because it encouraged wizards (and sorcerers too) to hone their Art so that one day they might become the next magister. In the long term, though, it just meant a lot of wizards (and sorcerers) died in the attempts on the Magisters life.
The latter is better because it means the Magister is actively spreading magic and ensuring a new generation of wizards (and sorcerers) learn about the Art in a positive manner. (There's nothing positive about rampaging Wizards nuking your town in a great spell battle, merely because it was in the way.)
Still, I do think the office comes with a big target. Azuth might choose the Magister (and this was announced by Azuth Realms wide via the expedient method of speaking through the altars in his churches etc), but don't think that would deterr some seeking power - however, slaying her won't get them the mantle of the Magister.
(This is all covered in Secrets of the Magister and Magic of Faerun. The Seven Sisters is also a useful source.)
ShadeofDiz-what can i add? Aparently, i'm trying to find explanation to some doubts about the chosen (that maybe some other people might have). Some members explained and share theirs points of view, but if you like, i will say no more, and you can all agree about everything, ok?
Boda, I'm not trying to be insulting, or to make you shut up, I'm trying to get you to read the books that contain the answers to your questions.
There are A LOT of available downloads on this very site (in fact it is one of the coolest things any company has done ever, period) and if you want to learn about the realms then there is no better place.
Heya,
Actually, the office of the Magister has changed. It is no longer "HEY COME AND FRY ME!!!"
(snip)
(This is all covered in Secrets of the Magister and Magic of Faerun. The Seven Sisters is also a useful source.)
True enough, Azuth now hand chooses the magister. Though if memory serves, that wasn't clearly stated till the FRCS (irrelevant side point, I'm just being finicky and I'm not 100 percent certain). However, unless my memory is worse than I thought that change only went into effect within the last 3 magisters. None of the notable evil magisters that Boda might have used as an example would have been chosen under the new system.
Other than that, I'm not shrinking the target I keep painted on the magister's back until Faerun has had more time for dense young wizards to figure out that killing an active magister does not necessarily come with benefits.
I may have to reconsider the trust inherent in the position eventually but for the moment I do still hold the view that Mystra needs to trust her Chosen far more than the magister.
The DMG says that?
Other than that, I'm not shrinking the target I keep painted on the magister's back until Faerun has had more time for dense young wizards to figure out that killing an active magister does not necessarily come with benefits.
I may have to reconsider the trust inherent in the position eventually but for the moment I do still hold the view that Mystra needs to trust her Chosen far more than the magister.
I definitely wouldn't be shrinking the target any. After all, high intelligence (or charisma) doesn't automatically come with a high wisdom.
They might not be able to gain the mantle of the Magister, but they might believe that they would come into possession of any number of potent magical items and spells... This might not actually be true, but they'll try it anyway.I also agree with your last point too. The Chosen are a completely different issue.
50% of the people in the world are evil?
The DMG says that?
Nah. The relevent chart is on page 110. It's on the upper right hand side, easy to miss, since I can tell you I had no idea it was there. I've never used that thing, if I want a random NPC I can use Jamis Buck's npc generator, and I have no trouble deciding on an alignment for NPC's. Basically if I read everything correctly it says 50% of the NPC's in random encounters are evil.
To me using that to generate an alignment distribution doesn't make a lick of sense. I guess you could say Faerun is one massive encounter but that doesn't make sense either.
Curiously if you go to the next chapter, demographics, you get charts that let you generate level distributions for a city. If you use those, and take that 68 million figure for population you can generate a level breakdown for the realms. The demo data is only for cities, not a country as a whole. But if you use the "metropolis" entry, which will give you the greatest number of high level NPC's, and break up 68,000,000 in chunks of 25,000 you can get a surprisingly low number of NPC's past 5th level.
If you assume:
1) No one under 5th level is worth worrying about.
2) Only clerics, druids, wizards and sorcerers matter.
3) Roughly double the number of cleric/druid/wiz/sorc NPC's to account for surprise characters that live in some small hamlet.
4) Say per the page 110 chart only half of this total is evil.
5) 9*365 means the Chosen of Mystra can "process" about 3200 evil NPC's in a year.
That means that in about 5 to 20 years the Chosen could eliminate all the evil that matters in the realms. Taking care of the non-caster and low level evil is the PC's job. I did the figuring with these assumptions, but didn't write down any figures, and I'm not doing it again.
I guess all the non-evil types can have non-humanoid clean-up day once a month. It should be enough. And after the first two decades it will be much easier to deal with the low number of NPC's that advance past 5th level in a given year.
It's a stupid approach. The realms don't seem to match up with that demo breakdown. I played with advancing the metropolis stats to about 1,000,000 by assuming the pop levels advance by doubling (closest I could come by inspection), then advance the highest level NPC chart and number as well.
The number I got felt a lot more right, in light of my impression of what the realm level breakdown is according to the sourcebooks.
I know how stupid the above is. But it is just as valid as the original argument.
What's the point? This sort of argument has been going on for about 15 or so years now.
In the Cormyr thread that is in this subforum right now, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=813127, Dexter_Blacktyde in entry 27, said about all I think about the subject anyway.
If someone creates a thread about a issue, it's likely that there's a desire for some for of input about the issue. I'm just raising questions about it.
I've in other threads people complaining about Salvatore not caring about timelines and rules, or how ToT was bad. Maybe he's not the only author/developer to have bad ideas.
I've in other threads people complaining about Salvatore not caring about timelines and rules, or how ToT was bad. Maybe he's not the only author/developer to have bad ideas.
Boda, you have hit upon something here, particularly with your last paragraph regarding R. A. Salvatore. Salvatore ignores elements of game design that would, in his opinion, make his plots break down and not work. This leads him to break many conventions of Dungeons and Dragons, and even of the Forgotten Realms itself. I've not read much of his work (I find him boring), but what I have read... Well, some things just stick out like a sore thumb. However, there is a reason why he "breaks the rules" the way he does. In fact, if you go and look at every single novel ever written for the Realms, you'll find that nearly all the authors, even Ed Greenwood, break the rules to a certian extent. There are simply some elements in any Role Playing setting that can be plot breakers for a novel or a story - the ability for a priest to bring someone back to life, is a prime example... This is why in a novel, you'll hardly ever see a rich or powerful person being resurrected in any way. Sometimes there's a half hearted attempt at an explanation why, sometimes it goes unexplained. I find myself mentally yelling at the novel "But why can they ressurect him/her?!"
It is really a poor way to handle the situation. A writer should be able to write a story without breaking the rules completely. I have no problems with them bending the rules, however, just as long as it doesn't jolt me out of the story.
Now, take all that into account and think about the reverse. How easy do you think it is to make a novel/story world suitable for a Role Playing Game? For a start, the main heroes of the setting immediately need to take a step back to let the PCs be in the spotlight... It doesn't and shouldn't mean those characters go away, and sometimes the PCs will interact with them (sometimes this will be due to a DM's "obsession" with those NPCs, and sometimes this will be due to a player's "obsession" with them, and sometimes it will be just simply because it would make sense for the NPC to be interested in the situation the PCs are dealing with)... It's this interface between the PCs and the novel/story characters that causes the problem in many people's minds. Novel/story characters can be just as plot breaking to an RPG as RPG elements can be to a novel/story.
The Forgotten Realms began as a novel/story setting, it predates Dungeons and Dragons by some years (I can't remember the exact dates, but 1968 springs to mind for some reason)... There are going to be some elements that just don't translate to RPG format that easily. It's not due to poor development decisions at all, it's a fundamental "flaw" in the foundations of the world, if you like.
(Please note: I happen to like the Realms, "flaws" and all, and I have a great deal of respect for all the writers and game developers who have made it into what it is today. This post is more about game and writing theories than it is a criticism of the writers and designers of the Forgotten Realms. It is an attempt to explain my opinion as to why things are the way they are, given my experience as DM, Player, and wannabe novel writer (with a diploma to back me up! ;)).)
ShadeofDiz, the point i'm trying(unsucessfuly it seams) to make is, that just because something was writen in some way, that doesnt make it a good idea. Sure, a lot of my doubts about the chosen have explanations, but are they good, reasonable explanations? Maybe yes or no, it all depends on how you look at it. But if no, then that will reflect on how the chosen are perceived. I'm trying to demonstrate that part of the chosen dislike is originated in some bad development ideas (in my opinion). They are not the only characters with this problem, but they are among the most visible ones, witch makes then a bigger target.
If someone creates a thread about a issue, it's likely that there's a desire for some for of input about the issue. I'm just raising questions about it.
I've in other threads people complaining about Salvatore not caring about timelines and rules, or how ToT was bad. Maybe he's not the only author/developer to have bad ideas.
Boda,
The point I'm trying to make is;
It doesn't seem like you know much about the chosen, without knowing much about the chosen they aren't going to make sense. In order to make the chosen more sensible you should read the sources people have provided.
Otherwise you're just making the same arguments many of us have seen dozens of times (and I haven't even been on the board for a year yet *g*)
I completely agree that there are bad ideas in the Realms, but before you make arguments about these things you should learn all that you can about them (aka. read the references provided)
I think that a good Magister would have a higher life expectancy than an evil Magister, simply because more people will like and support a good Magister as opposed to an evil Magister.
Note: Individual cases will vary, but I feel this is a good general observation.
ShadeofDiz, the point i'm trying(unsucessfuly it seams) to make is, that just because something was writen in some way, that doesnt make it a good idea. Sure, a lot of my doubts about the chosen have explanations, but are they good, reasonable explanations? Maybe yes or no, it all depends on how you look at it. But if no, then that will reflect on how the chosen are perceived. I'm trying to demonstrate that part of the chosen dislike is originated in some bad development ideas (in my opinion). They are not the only characters with this problem, but they are among the most visible ones, witch makes then a bigger target.
If someone creates a thread about a issue, it's likely that there's a desire for some for of input about the issue. I'm just raising questions about it.
I've in other threads people complaining about Salvatore not caring about timelines and rules, or how ToT was bad. Maybe he's not the only author/developer to have bad ideas.
Salvatore's ideas must be too bad, he has been writing the Drizzt novels for a long long time and they have made the New York times best selling list a lot. If these are Bob's bad ideas then his good ones must be amazing.
And when Charles Dicken's books didn't arrive on a ship when they were supposed to, it caused a riot... but that still doesn't change the fact that he was a saccharine moralistic pulp melodrama writer who somehow lucked out and got lionized as a giant of Literature... best selling does not equate to good literature, simply popular literature. And being popular or not does not make them mesh well with game mechanics, something I'd think you'd be well aware of Xun.
You see the only thing Bob cares for is Drizzt, not adding some great event to add to the Toril timeline, unless that is what he is writing about.
You see the only thing Bob cares for is Drizzt, not adding some great event to add to the Toril timeline, unless that is what he is writing about.
Stigger's right... Best seller means exactly what it sounds like. Books on the best seller list have sold a lot of copies and make their writers some money (in most cases, it's not a lot of money - because that's how much we value our authors.
). Does this mean they're any good? Well they must have something people want to read, or they wouldn't sell. But being a best seller is not an indication of how good a book is from a purely literary point of view (not that that means anything either).As for your comment, XunValDorl, Drizzt might sell novels, but Bob Salvatore is one of the worst offenders of breaking the rules in all of the Realms novels I've ever read. He has a ranger that has a magical item instead of an animal companion, who, we are told, venerates Meilikki, and yet we never SEE him doing so (in fact, from what I've read, he rarely (never?) even thinks of Her), and never casts even a single spell (I could be wrong on the latter, but I've never read him doing so).
Also, Drizzt has had quite an impact on the game world in more ways than one, and not all of it has been good. One of the impacts is that there has now been a stigma attached to the idea of good drow, and anyone playing one is a "drizzt wannabe" even if that character is a devout priestess of Eilistraee! Now, I'm not really a fan of Drizzt, but nor am I a Drizzt basher. He fits nicely into his part of the Realms, and he helps make the world that much richer because he's there. But Elminster and Storm and all of the Chosen of Mystra also fit nicely into the Realms and have their own parts to play in making the world a much richer place. The Realms would be diminshed if any of these characters were removed.
If you don't like them, don't give them a prominant place in your campaign. If you don't want to read about them, don't read about them. It's that simple.
(You and I, XunValDorn, have obviously read about different Elminsters.)
The problem on these boards is a thing Xun mentioned in another statement: that if your statement is a negative one towards the core elements of the Setting (as the Chosen of Mystra and the concept which they represent) you get flamed by dozens of posters (who feel responsible for holding up the rules of the game or whatever) who after making you look like an idiot because you haven't read all the novels about the chosen and their folks tell you that you don't have to use them in your cmapaign and think this is a usefull advice.
I know that if I don't like an element of the realms I don't need to use it in my game. It's that simple.
But sometimes, one want's to make a statement about an opinion. Simply to state it, not to provoke any of you guys but to see it posted. What's the problem with that?
Besides I have no problem with the abovementioned facts of the realms, I love them the way they are and don't want to critisize the conception myself.
But I think it should be possible for anyone to show his opinion without being attacked from all sides.
It's not so nice having to argue about a statement with multiple other posters at a time.
[Who by the way very often show their "superiority" by naming countless novels and 2nd edition source books which in my opinion isn't necessary, just show your knowledge if someone askes for help in many other situations you seem just like a teacher teaching someone a lesson, and that makes me feel quite uncomfortable.]I hope no one feels to offended by this statement, didn't mean to hurt anyones feelings but I think this needed to be sayed, because it's something I recognized in many threats around here.
You see the only thing Bob cares for is Drizzt, not adding some great event to add to the Toril timeline, unless that is what he is writing about.
Not sure how you can like and appreciate Drizzt, and hate the Chosen. How many times has Drizzt survived the impossible simply because he is Drizzt Do'urden? Too many. With his flawless unmatchable swordsmanship, and merry band of uber friends, he is untouchable by anything ever. Even the one time he died, it lasted for all of what, five pages? Elminster has spent a couple centuries frozen in place staring at a wall.
As for your first post, the people who argue the valid opinions almost always back up their points with solid page quoted, or source referenced proof. The fact that the people with disagreeing opinions refuse to listen, and continue spouting BS like there is no tomorrow is why the first batch occasionally resort to the degrading of ones intellects.
This being said, the ones ignorant to the rules aren't always in the clear, as they will usually start their retortive posts with insults and jibes regarding peoples intellect, and their ability to understand "the words that are comin' outta ma mouth".
Case and fact, your allegations against the chosen are for the most part purely fictional, and baseless in anything but whimsical opinion. You hate for one reason, most likely you have spent a lot of time around others who hate on them too. So congrats on being brainwashed, but I'd suggest reading the novels by yourself, as you will quickly see that not only are the chosen not how you portray them, but Elminster is far from perfect, and almost never has the perfectly right spell prepared.
Elminster gets himself into situations all the time to which are seemingly foolish and avoidable, and generally winds up lucking out with people accidentally rescuing him, or one of his family stepping in to help. And being Irish as I think I remember you claiming, you better than anyone should know and respect the aid of family, even when its saving you from your own stupidity.
p.s. There was a time when I was younger, and people like you ragged on El and gang, and for a while it turned me off to them, thinking such bull shite propaganda was the preferred and accepted mentality of gamers on the characters in question. Fortunately I was open minded enough to give it a shot, and now here I am, going to bat for the foolish old wizard ;):P
Now that is a good question.:D
:D Heh I thought so myself.
We know Eilistraee had *plans* for Iliryztara, and that the death of her own child was threatening those plans.
What became of Iliryztara after the birth of Qilué, isn't specifically known as I recall, beyond a few tidbits in Seven Sisters and the Heroes' Lorebook.
Thanks Old Sage, your a fount of knowledge as always
But sometimes, one want's to make a statement about an opinion. Simply to state it, not to provoke any of you guys but to see it posted. What's the problem with that?
Why post your opinion if you don't want critiquing, or discussion to come from it? No one benifets from a board run like that, and it doesn't make sense. If you want an uncontested opinion, then my opinion is keep it to yourself. Not trying to be mean here, just pointing this out
.Besides I have no problem with the abovementioned facts of the realms, I love them the way they are and don't want to critisize the conception myself.
But I think it should be possible for anyone to show his opinion without being attacked from all sides.
It's not so nice having to argue about a statement with multiple other posters at a time.
The reason we feel the need to quote books seems obvious enough, but the gist of it is this. People usually only hate something in the Realms because it confuses them, or they don't have the whole picture of it. People that know more on the subject are always happy to share this info, so that maybe the person in question will see the situation in the correct light, and in the future perhaps choose to include the missing elements in a revised version of their campaign.
The issue arises that you are seeing, when the ones confused on the material, come here to *****, and not learn, and often argue "facts" based off misinterpretations, or lack of facts. This then leads to the corrections you dislike, and the sudden defensiveness of the person, wishing to defend what they perceive as the truth.
Ultimately this comes down to what I said above. If you aren't here to learn, or discuss while keeping an open mind to the possibility of being incorrect, then why come at all? If you have made up your mind on something, then I see little that anyone here could offer you ;)
As for your comment, XunValDorl, Drizzt might sell novels, but Bob Salvatore is one of the worst offenders of breaking the rules in all of the Realms novels I've ever read. He has a ranger that has a magical item instead of an animal companion,
Drizzt has several magical items, but since when did one of them sub for an animal companion? Besides, last I checked he has an animal companion - not a traditional-style one, but one nonetheless. Guen.
who, we are told, venerates Meilikki, and yet we never SEE him doing so (in fact, from what I've read, he rarely (never?) even thinks of Her)
The novels definitely show him thinking about her on a number of occassions. Its explained in one that he rarely prays to her because he feels that a true God must know how he feels and what he thinks without the need for him to do that, but he has also been shown praying to her once or twice before a major undertaking, like when he was returning to Menzo in the hopes of diverting its wrath from Mithril Hall. Hes even met with a Unicorn, her sacred animal, on at least one occassion.
and never casts even a single spell (I could be wrong on the latter, but I've never read him doing so).
Last I checked, that wasn't a prerequisite for being a Ranger.
Zevox
Alright first things first. If someone doesn't agree with you, the smart arse comments and jokes are not needed. People that come to these boards have the right to like something and not like something. Making people feel uncomfortable about their posts is the wrong way to go. And some of you, you know who you are, like to try and make others that don't agree feel or look stupid. You can sit there and give "your" version or "opinion" all day long, but unless you have concrete written proof it is still an opinion. If someone doesn't agree with that opinion then fine, but when you try and make others look stupid to change their ideas about the situation only makes you look like an ass.
And this seems to be the point. Liking and disliking are wonderful things. Having your head a foot and a half into your colon is quite another. I can't speak for the others here but I don't make you look stupid to change your opinion. I do it so others will understand just how silly it is to rail against something you know about 3/4's of a wit about. Making people feel uncomfortable is often the best way to get them to look really hard at themselves. That's if they can see past their own shadow. :raincloud
Now, anyway I still hate the Chosen. To me the Chosen need to be in novels only, except Elminster, I really hate that character. His whole, having this and that spell available at just the right time for that one situation that has either come up before a long time ago or is the first time is really old. Being able to do somethings that he isn't supposed to do, or have a certain power at that moment and at no other time is really annoying.
Thanks for making my above point with this little gem.:D
I know it's a novel, but thats how the characters are written, not for NPC's. If you incorporated them into a game after a while they won't be the most powerful, your PC's will be. There is a sequence of events that have happened where the Chosen just happen to survive, but if you did it from a game point of view most of the Chosen wouldn't be here, a bad roll of the dice most likely would have killed on off a while back, or something got a hold of them when they wern't so powerful. The scenerios are endless. Elminster and the way they are used is what gets me.
Xun, I wish a long and happy life upon you. Truly. No BS. Maybe then you'll gain just a tad of perspective. ;)
Drizzt has several magical items, but since when did one of them sub for an animal companion? Besides, last I checked he has an animal companion - not a traditional-style one, but one nonetheless. Guen.
The novels definitely show him thinking about her on a number of occassions. Its explained in one that he rarely prays to her because he feels that a true God must know how he feels and what he thinks without the need for him to do that, but he has also been shown praying to her once or twice before a major undertaking, like when he was returning to Menzo in the hopes of diverting its wrath from Mithril Hall. Hes even met with a Unicorn, her sacred animal, on at least one occassion.
Heh, now this is pretty ironic coming after Red's "people are mostly just correcting an incorrect interpretation" ;)
I agree with Zevox on this one, it's not blatent in the books but what Z's said here jives with my thoughts on the subject (except for Guen being the animal companion, though it would go a long ways towards Guen "toughening up" to play at Drizzt's level).
And as a note, just because one can have an animal companion doesn't mean one will have an animal companion.
Last I checked, that wasn't a prerequisite for being a Ranger.
Zevox
Wrong word Zevox, it's that rangers can cast spells, ie. Drizzt should have the ability to cast spells.
He may just choose not to cast spells, perhaps it comes from his inherent distrust of divinity, perhaps he just hasn't realized he can cast spells yet, perhaps there is another reason, but it'd be nice to see why Drizzt doesn't use this ability.
Why post your opinion if you don't want critiquing, or discussion to come from it? No one benifets from a board run like that, and it doesn't make sense. If you want an uncontested opinion, then my opinion is keep it to yourself. Not trying to be mean here, just pointing this out
The reason we feel the need to quote books seems obvious enough, but the gist of it is this. People of hate something in the Realms because it confuses them, or they don't have the whole picture of it. People that know more on the subject are always happy to share this info, so that maybe the person in question will see the situation in the correct light, and in the future perhaps choose to include the missing elements in a revised version of their campaign.
The issue arises that you are seeing, when the ones confused on the material, come here to *****, and not learn, and often argue "facts" based off misinterpretations, or lack of facts. This then leads to the corrections you dislike, and the sudden defensiveness of the person, wishing to defend what they perceive as the truth.
Thanks for your response.
What I meant was more a question of the tone of the statement.
And your statement meets this tone exactly.
You argue from a position wich you think you inherit, but you don't. No one around here does. You don't need to teach me a lesson about fairness, knowledge of the Realms or any other things. You can argue with me, and discuss the given topics, you can help me if I don't understand or know or recocnize a fact, but you must not teach me something.
Most often people are not "confused with the material" (as it is nothing of high complexity) but simply think about it in a different way, for some reasons you don't know. (Perhaps they really don't know as much as others do. But still you don't know.) But in judging them as kids that need to learn more about the things parents are talking about you underestimate the mostly legitimate statements.
Then very often a discussion arises which is very much off topic (mostly about who has when read which article of Ed or something like that;) ) and the problem which could have been discussed isn't mentioned anymore.
The poster who tried to bring up a new point of view is widely ignored by the other posters who see their opinion as superior.
In my opinion that's not the right climate for a good debate. And it's kind of a problem for players who are new to the realms.
That's what I wanted to point out.:angelhide
That's just a pet peeve of mine. I hate it when people don't accept that they were ignorant of something, and that they've learned something they didn't know before, which obviously can change an opinion.
In American English, at least, if you tell something to somebody which they did not previously know, it qualifies as 'teaching.' Not necessarily the best form of teaching, but it's teaching nonetheless.
You can argue with me, and discuss the given topics, you can help me if I don't understand or know or recocnize a fact, but you must not teach me something.
Most often people are not "confused with the material" (as it is nothing of high complexity) but simply think about it in a different way, for some reasons you don't know. (Perhaps they really don't know as much as others do. But still you don't know.) But in judging them as kids that need to learn more about the things parents are talking about you underestimate the mostly legitimate statements.
Just a small handful of points;
When helping someone understand something you are, in fact, teaching.
And my experience runs counter to you're claim that "Most often people are not 'confused with the material'..." It's typically not "different takes on the same subject" that gets people posting in a condescending manner, it's typically someone who makes an unsupported claim about realmslore, and, typically speaking, they don't get a condescending answer the first time around, it's when someone doesn't read the sources that would enlighten them as to what the situation really is yet consistantly makes claims that run counter to established realmslore.
There are all sorts of people on this board who look at the realms through a different lense but the difference between these people and the people who garner condescending answers is that they've read the realmslore about the subject.
Look at it this way, are you going to trust the person who's glanced at a chemistry book or are you going to trust the person who's gotten their PhD in chemistry?
but you must not teach me something.
Um, ok. You do know that adults ignore a child that says the same thing. Sometimes kiddies just have to be pulled by the nose into knowledge, or removed from the class for the benefit of the other students. Since I will be a student until the silica in my brain starts to degrade it, I am more than pleased to boot someone into the hall so the rest of us can still enhance ourselves.
Most often people are not "confused with the material" (as it is nothing of high complexity) but simply think about it in a different way, for some reasons you don't know. (Perhaps they really don't know as much as others do. But still you don't know.) But in judging them as kids that need to learn more about the things parents are talking about you underestimate the mostly legitimate statements.
Stating that the material lacks complexity shows it all. I would think it more appropo to say that some don't see the complexity. I agree that pearls of wisdom often fall from the mouths of babes. Pearls of knowledge never do. Kids don't like being told such things, I know I never did. Oh well, they grow, or at least most do.
Then very often a discussion arises which is very much off topic (mostly about who has when read which article of Ed or something like that ) and the problem which could have been discussed isn't mentioned anymore.
The poster who tried to bring up a new point of view is widely ignored by the other posters who see their opinion as superior.
In my opinion that's not the right climate for a good debate. And it's kind of a problem for players who are new to the realms.
I find this to be very wise. Those posters who ask a legitimate question as a truth seeker rarely find combat on these boards. It's the one's who come in both guns blazing who find themeselves in a pond with much bigger and meaner fish.;)
Yeah, Pepperification always makes typing much easier..... All I have is 30 cans of Dr. Pepper. Will that do?
Not a fan
That's ok though, I should be drinkin soda anyhow ;)
Um, ok. You do know that adults ignore a child that says the same thing. Sometimes kiddies just have to be pulled by the nose into knowledge, or removed from the class for the benefit of the other students. Since I will be a student until the silica in my brain starts to degrade it, I am more than pleased to boot someone into the hall so the rest of us can still enhance ourselves.
Stating that the material lacks complexity shows it all. I would think it more appropo to say that some don't see the complexity. I agree that pearls of wisdom often fall from the mouths of babes. Pearls of knowledge never do. Kids don't like being told such things, I know I never did. Oh well, they grow, or at least most do.
First I'd like to state the obvious: my english is far from perfect and that's why I have a hard time communicate exactly what I mean. Concerning the word teaching in the moment I wrote I couldn't think of any better word. Just to let you know why some of my comments are a bit unprecise.
Now the thing I mentioned before again for a better understanding, because you Brennon seemed to miss the point I tried to work out.
It is exactly the way you answered my statement which makes me a bit
.I think none of you has the right to talk to me like I was a child, or like I'm stupid.
It is simply not ok. It shows that you don't respect me. To be honest I feel insulted by the way you formulated your answers.
Perhaps it is a problem of me missing the fact that you tried to be sarcastic or something like that. But to me it didn't seem like it.
So to make this clear this is what my reply was all about. I think one should discuss topics openly and of course one should know what one is talking about. But if you feel the necessity to correct someone, which I admit quite often occurs then do it in a way you would like to be treated. It's unnecessery to make a fool out of people just because they are not equally well informed as you are.
I hope this makes it clear.
And didn't insult you.;)
Then again, my fraternity is made up of a bunch of condescending, overly-educated geeks who make it a habit of insulting and POWNING each other to bond. And we all love each other. Like this --> <3.
Tough love is the best kind of love. Or maybe that's just the German in me talking. It talks a lot.
This is meant as a general post (for the most part), not directed at Panurg, or any other who might interpret it as coming their way, so please refrain from quoting and snapping at me:P.
The underlying issue, is while you Panurg so far have been quite gracious in trying to understand, and counter our methods for enlightening others, there are still the majority who come here knowing everything, and having read nothing and still want to argue they are right.
I'd like to say I don't like singling people out, but I do, as embarrassment leads to self betterment (or alternatly emotional stunting, to which the person flees crying and never returns). Now I have no preference over either option, but this is the way I work.
Xun is a good example of someone who has read a few things in varied places, combined it with the off handed remarks of others who have done the same, and formulated a position he refuses to budge from. This is the common mentality that has to be dealt with here on the boards
So when someone (possibly Xun ;)) takes this stance, and argues, and argues, and argues with people who know the setting, and in most cases even the game, better than he does, what choice do we have but to get down to the nitty gritty form of reasoning, and go to town on their flawed logic?
Xun isn't alone in this of course. It is the mindset of many who come here, and honestly after awhile, we correct bluntly, and deal with the crying later, by beating their brains in with soft foam bats of knowledge :P.
The only alternative is ignore them, which then starts a crying spam fit, where the person gets accused of being ignored for other reasons. Or, they take this at having one their debate, and further solidifying in their own mind they are correct.
Why is this an issue? Because more will come, and maybe amongst them there remains one open minded enough to correct their mistakes, and if not caught, the few rotten apples will spoil the barrel that is shaping up to be the younger bulk, and Faeruns future. And I personally don't want to see the setting left in the hands of anyone stubborn and confused, as that will eventually lead it spiraling down into an oblivion like all its predecessors.
Tough love is the best kind of love. Or maybe that's just the German in me talking. It talks a lot.
I'm a firm believer in tough love
Anyhow, Panurg, I think there is both a language barrier, an inability to get a clear "tone" of a post due to a lack of voice tone, body language, ect. And I think that almost everyone would agree that being condescending right off the bat is rude and uncalled for, however, it is often the case that a condescending attitude has been provoked by unfounded arguments from a stance of ignorance (ie. making claims about the chosen that are untrue because the person never bothered to read the sources that were quoted towards them, a sort of sticking the fingers in the ears and shouting "la la la")
And as a note, just because one can have an animal companion doesn't mean one will have an animal companion.
Indeed. I know of many Rangers who choose to go without those. A certain chaotic evil halfling comes to mind, for starters ;) .
Wrong word Zevox, it's that rangers can cast spells, ie. Drizzt should have the ability to cast spells.
He may just choose not to cast spells, perhaps it comes from his inherent distrust of divinity, perhaps he just hasn't realized he can cast spells yet, perhaps there is another reason, but it'd be nice to see why Drizzt doesn't use this ability.
*shrugs* As you say, he could simply choose not to, or not know that he can. It could also be that hes a variant Ranger that doesn't get to cast spells (one of those is in Complete Warrior).
Actually, did Rangers back in 1e get to cast spells? That was when Drizzt was created, so if they didn't, that would explain that.
Zevox
Now the thing I mentioned before again for a better understanding, because you Brennon seemed to miss the point I tried to work out.
It is exactly the way you answered my statement which makes me a bit
I think none of you has the right to talk to me like I was a child, or like I'm stupid.
It is simply not ok. It shows that you don't respect me. To be honest I feel insulted by the way you formulated your answers.
Perhaps it is a problem of me missing the fact that you tried to be sarcastic or something like that. But to me it didn't seem like it.
So to make this clear this is what my reply was all about. I think one should discuss topics openly and of course one should know what one is talking about. But if you feel the necessity to correct someone, which I admit quite often occurs then do it in a way you would like to be treated. It's unnecessery to make a fool out of people just because they are not equally well informed as you are.
I hope this makes it clear.
And didn't insult you.;)
Shrug, if I think someone is wrong then I reserve the right to challenge them. The courtesy with which I may do so is variable based on my mood, the person I'm challenging, the topic and maybe a couple other factors. The only guarantee I offer and the only one I expect from anyone is that I will attempt to remain within the basic restrictions of the Code of Conduct. I will not apologize if that is a problem because frankly I am not willing to guarantee any more and my sympathy is distinctly limited for most people who I see demanding more courtesy from board members. An alarming supply of them choose to demand what they have no interest in granting in return and I'm not in. Those cases where people are willing to abide by the same restrictions that they expect of me, I am occasionally willing to modify my behaviour for but I promise nothing.
Actually, did Rangers back in 1e get to cast spells? That was when Drizzt was created, so if they didn't, that would explain that.
Zevox
Good call, I'd always assumed he was created in 2nd ed days. I'll have to check that when I get home, I want to say they had spells but . . . well, it's been a while since I've given 1e a real good read ;)
Drizzt has several magical items, but since when did one of them sub for an animal companion? Besides, last I checked he has an animal companion - not a traditional-style one, but one nonetheless. Guen.
Umm... Guen is a Figurine of Wonderous Power? That's the magical item that substitutes for an animal companion. Guen herself might be a real live panther, but she's obviously magical (enchanted), and obviously trapped in an item (Drizzt needs the item to summon her, no figurine - no Guen).
Most rangers have standard animals as their companions, and they certianly don't go away into the ether when not needed.
The novels definitely show him thinking about her on a number of occassions. Its explained in one that he rarely prays to her because he feels that a true God must know how he feels and what he thinks without the need for him to do that, but he has also been shown praying to her once or twice before a major undertaking, like when he was returning to Menzo in the hopes of diverting its wrath from Mithril Hall. Hes even met with a Unicorn, her sacred animal, on at least one occassion.
Okay. Cool. I stand corrected.
Last I checked, that wasn't a prerequisite for being a Ranger.
Drizzt's stats make him perfectly capable of casting Ranger spells. He never does it, though, even when it might aid him... At least as far as I know. (Does he even use his Drow special abilities? I seem to recall that he does, but my memory is vague. It has been a long while since I read his novels.)
@Panurg - I think the word you were looking for is "lecture". Lecture implies a level of arrogance or condecension that the word "teaching" lacks, especially outside of actual learning. (I have attended plenty of lectures in my life, and none of them were arrogant or condecending.)
Hope that helps. @Zevox - I'm almost confident enough to put money on 1st Edition Rangers being able to cast a limited selection of druid spells. I would have to get my 1st Ed PHB to check though, and as I'm still away from my books... *shrug*
I hope this makes it clear.
And didn't insult you.
It does, and you didn't.
Sorry Panurg, I came off a bit harsh. My apologies.
Hmm, I agree, being naturally sarcastic by nature, and condescending by education, I often find that I use these methods to try and alleviate the burden of ignorance that some choose to carry.
This is meant as a general post (for the most part), not directed at Panurg, or any other who might interpret it as coming their way, so please refrain from quoting and snapping at me:P.
The underlying issue, is while you Panurg so far have been quite gracious in trying to understand, and counter our methods for enlightening others, there are still the majority who come here knowing everything, and having read nothing and still want to argue they are right.
I'd like to say I don't like singling people out, but I do, as embarrassment leads to self betterment (or alternatly emotional stunting, to which the person flees crying and never returns). Now I have no preference over either option, but this is the way I work.
Xun is a good example of someone who has read a few things in varied places, combined it with the off handed remarks of others who have done the same, and formulated a position he refuses to budge from. This is the common mentality that has to be dealt with here on the boards
So when someone (possibly Xun ;)) takes this stance, and argues, and argues, and argues with people who know the setting, and in most cases even the game, better than he does, what choice do we have but to get down to the nitty gritty form of reasoning, and go to town on their flawed logic?
Xun isn't alone in this of course. It is the mindset of many who come here, and honestly after awhile, we correct bluntly, and deal with the crying later, by beating their brains in with soft foam bats of knowledge :P.
The only alternative is ignore them, which then starts a crying spam fit, where the person gets accused of being ignored for other reasons. Or, they take this at having one their debate, and further solidifying in their own mind they are correct.
Why is this an issue? Because more will come, and maybe amongst them there remains one open minded enough to correct their mistakes, and if not caught, the few rotten apples will spoil the barrel that is shaping up to be the younger bulk, and Faeruns future. And I personally don't want to see the setting left in the hands of anyone stubborn and confused, as that will eventually lead it spiraling down into an oblivion like all its predecessors.
Red!! I see that my name has appeared on your post one too many times. As they say down here "I'm as stubborn as a mule". Well it's the irish that does that. I will argue and argue all night if I have to. Thats what makes me.........well me.We are all masters of our own fate. Blaming cultural archetypes is a child's game. Unless it's done purely out of fun. Then it's cool.
Irish people are not defined by their mule-headedness in the face of obvious facts. If I was Irish, I'd be offended that you'd try to make that an actial ethical stereotype in defense of your actions.
We are all masters of our own fate. Blaming cultural archetypes is a child's game. Unless it's done purely out of fun. Then it's cool.
Tell me something. You are not Irish, but you seem to know what it is like to be Irish. My friend you make about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine. My grandfather, and father we are all irish and we all share the bull-headedness. I had a girl friend who was Irish and she had fiery red hair and a temper and hard head to match. I am not using my heritage as an excuse, and if you were Irish I wouldn't care if you were offended because I am Irish and I know where my temper and hard head comes from. Please don't try and come up with an answer when you have informed everyone your not even irish.
Umm... Guen is a Figurine of Wonderous Power? That's the magical item that substitutes for an animal companion. Guen herself might be a real live panther, but she's obviously magical (enchanted), and obviously trapped in an item (Drizzt needs the item to summon her, no figurine - no Guen).
Except of course for the fact that Guen is not the item itself. The novels make that perfectly clear - the item is simply the conduit through which Drizzt can call her from her astral home. Guen herself isn't an item, just an extraplanar animal called by it.
Drizzt's stats make him perfectly capable of casting Ranger spells.
And, of course, whether his stats (which were created by WotC, not RAS, I may point out) accurately reflect him is a debate we see around here all too often already.
(Does he even use his Drow special abilities? I seem to recall that he does, but my memory is vague. It has been a long while since I read his novels.)
He used to use them back in the Dark Elf Trilogy (one instance where he used Faerie Fire preemptively on a Duergar comes to mind, plus many instances where he used his darkness orbs to put foes at a disadvantage), but when he came to the surface he lost his inherent powers along with his Drow items. He came up before Liriel's adventures rectified that situation, so he didn't get them back, and thus can no longer use them anyway.
Zevox
He used both faerie fire and a darkness globe when fighting a marilith in Passage to Dawn, well after he left the Underdark. Now whether said tricks should have been legal is another story but Drizzt has been using Drow tricks since reaching the surface.
Tell me something. You are not Irish, but you seem to know what it is like to be Irish.
Being Irish is sufficiently like being most other lineages of human that GD's comment applies regardless. Well that, or the downside of being a mutt who considers MY Irish ancestry to be merely a facet of a greater picture is that I lack a proper appreciation of what is to be Irish. Then again considering the utter silliness people occasionally enjoy linking to heritage perhaps that's not a downside.
Snip
So you agree you're foolishly and irrationally stubborn
CoolDrizzt's stats make him perfectly capable of casting Ranger spells. He never does it, though, even when it might aid him... At least as far as I know. (Does he even use his Drow special abilities? I seem to recall that he does, but my memory is vague. It has been a long while since I read his novels.)
I think he cast a spell once, when Guen's statue fell in the ice sea. He summoned a seal, or enchanted a seal, or something. My memory is REALLY foggy as it's litterally been years upon years since I've read the book.
So you agree you're foolishly and irrationally stubborn
Bloody heck, my brain must have plans to go on vacation whenever my patience does. I should have caught onto that a while back. Thanks for the laugh.
I looked through a few other threats with my eye on the problem you explained to me and I have to admit that your arguments have a good point.
I can imagine you come into embarassing situations around here.;)
Except of course for the fact that Guen is not the item itself. The novels make that perfectly clear - the item is simply the conduit through which Drizzt can call her from her astral home. Guen herself isn't an item, just an extraplanar animal called by it.
Guen has a short story all to herself in Realms of Magic (called, would you believe it, Guenhwyvar - which is explained in the short story to be the high elven word for "shadow"), and it specifically states in the story that she was to become a Figurine of Wonderous Power... However, something went a little awry with it. In any event, she was made/entrapped by Anders Beltargrim (a human ranger/wizard) a long time ago (253 DR), and in being so enchanted, has fundamentally changed. Any other panther would be long since dead.
Guen is very obviously not a standard animal. She may very well be a magical beast, in fact. Rangers can select an animal companion from a list of animals - at least in 3.5e.
The point I'm trying to make here is that Drizzt doesn't seem to be a very rangerly Ranger.
I now also have access to my books, so I've looked up 1st Edition Rangers. Rangers in 1st Edition could use both Druid and Magic User spells (Druid from 8th level, casting up to level 3 spells, and Magic User from 9th level, casting up to level 2 spells). So saying that Drizzt was created pre-2nd Ed doesn't make any difference to whether or not he can cast spells at all, since Rangers in all editions can. (I might add that Ranger was almost as difficult a class to qualify for as Paladins in 1st Edition, the minimum stat requirements were pretty tough given strict 3d6 6 times stat generation (13+ str, 13+ int, 14+ wis, 14+ con - with the 10% xp bonus only kicking in for Rangers with 15+ str, 15+ int, and 15+ wis).)
And, of course, whether his stats (which were created by WotC, not RAS, I may point out) accurately reflect him is a debate we see around here all too often already.
He was a novel character first. Game stats are never going to be accurate when attempting to fit them to a novel character... Generally if I'm writing a DnD style story, I'll create the stats first and write the story around them, thereby making them easier to write true/accurately to their stats, but I'm strange like that*.
(I don't write DnD stories very often these days, since I'm devoting all my energy to my original work.)He used to use them back in the Dark Elf Trilogy (one instance where he used Faerie Fire preemptively on a Duergar comes to mind, plus many instances where he used his darkness orbs to put foes at a disadvantage), but when he came to the surface he lost his inherent powers along with his Drow items. He came up before Liriel's adventures rectified that situation, so he didn't get them back, and thus can no longer use them anyway.
This is another problem with novel to game conversions or novel explanations for a mechanical changes in the game system (and appears to be retroactive for every drow but Drizzt, even though he still has his drow powers in his current set of stats, IIRC).
* I am NOT claiming to be a better writer, merely that I use different techniques. Until I actually have several books published, R A Salvatore > Me. ;)
Tell me something. You are not Irish, but you seem to know what it is like to be Irish. My friend you make about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine. My grandfather, and father we are all irish and we all share the bull-headedness. I had a girl friend who was Irish and she had fiery red hair and a temper and hard head to match. I am not using my heritage as an excuse, and if you were Irish I wouldn't care if you were offended because I am Irish and I know where my temper and hard head comes from. Please don't try and come up with an answer when you have informed everyone your not even irish.
Wow. I bet you think Poles are dumb and all Germans are pragmatic Nazis too.
Tell me something. You are not Irish, but you seem to know what it is like to be Irish. My friend you make about as much sense as a screen door on a submarine. My grandfather, and father we are all irish and we all share the bull-headedness. I had a girl friend who was Irish and she had fiery red hair and a temper and hard head to match. I am not using my heritage as an excuse, and if you were Irish I wouldn't care if you were offended because I am Irish and I know where my temper and hard head comes from. Please don't try and come up with an answer when you have informed everyone your not even irish.
+15 racial bonus on all saves against psycho-analysis
The books almost never make anything "clear" statswise.
You know, in the end, I'm just kinda sad that I started talking "stats" about a RAS character
You should have known better.
Bad Shadez.Besides, we all know Drizzt is a 10th level self pittier/ 1st level failed romantic/ 5th level Took decades to get the courage to make a move and now she's too old to party.
You should have known better.
Besides, we all know Drizzt is a 10th level self pittier/ 1st level failed romantic/ 5th level Took decades to get the courage to make a move and now she's too old to party.
Haha, you let everyone yammer away when you had his stats all along!
Devious
As to the first part, I'm still young on these boards. . . yeah. . . that's my excuse
The point I'm trying to make here is that Drizzt doesn't seem to be a very rangerly Ranger.
The fact that he doesn't use two of the class' more minor class features (Animal Companion and spellcasting) makes him not a "very rangerly Ranger"? Even though he routinely uses most of the other features, many of which are more iconic to the class (tracking, wilderness skills galore, animal empathy, two-weapon fighting and archery talents, and presumably favored enemy)
? Okay, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.Zevox
If you had only limitied yourself to the chosens I would agree, but as you include other powerfull NPCs you are imo wrong.
The chosens are only 9 persons, but there are hundereds, probably thousands of powerfull NPCs and a even higher number of not so powerfull NPCs.
The FR is so full of lvl 10+ people, retired adventurer tavern owners, dragons and outsiders in disguise and other adventurers that so the PCs are not needed. Why hire the NPCs for a job when there so many adventurers out there which are at a (slightly) higher level anhd/or have a better reputation? Yes you can say that they simply have something else to do or ignore them completly but then you can also say that the PCs are the chosen ones and the only people who can stop big evil X. That is about as creative as ignoring all mid and high level NPCs in the FR is logical.
NPCs in a given community who are simply more powerful than the PCs, and therefore could arguably make the necessity of the PCs moot, is not a trait exclusively unique to the Forgotten Realms, indeed it is something that can and will regularly occur using the standard community demographics in the DMG. The difference is that in the Forgotten Realms, many of these NPCs have pre-established names, alignments, histories, and agendas. That is because the Forgotten Realms is an established campaign setting, where much of the background is already there for the DM, as opposed to a homebrew world whose population is still being rolled up from DMG dice tables. While there may be a higher percentage of good or neutral aligned named NPCs in the realms, there is no reason why that cannot be balanced out through the much larger sector of the un-named NPC population, which can be populated by an comesurate number of villains.
As for why the majority of named NPCs are above 10th level, it can largely be ascribed to the fact that a person is only famous or “legendary” once they are 11th level or higher, as per the guidelines of the legend lore spell. Meanwhile, with bardic knowledge it takes a lower DC check to learn about a famed, powerful hero than it does to learn about a townsfolk simpleton. Therefore, it is a more immediate need for DMs to have details about significant or high level NPCs than it is for them to have details about those of lower levels...specifically when the stats of the random or insignificant NPCs can be extrapolated from the DMG tables, or you can use the statistics of higher level NPCs to in turn determine the statistical choices (classes, feats, weapons, etc) of lower levels NPCs from that region or organization, by creating a lesser version of the named NPC.
If the PCs are operating out of a community that is large enough to sustain them (i.e. higher population communities have higher gp spending limits for buying equipment, and higher gp assets mean they have the financial means to adequately reward the heroes), then there almost certainly will be at least one person in the community equal to or even more powerful than them. A group of 1st level characters could be given the task of saving the daughter of the mayor of a hamlet-sized town, who was kidnapped by goblins during a recent raid. Using the typical hamlet sized town, whose class/level population demographics are fully spelled in the DMG as an example, there are several NPCs who are higher level than the PCs, mainly three 3rd level characters who have levels in adventuring classes. Given the opportunity, these characters could easily set out and accomplish anything a group of 1st level PCs could hope to do. For whatever reason, circumstances bend themselves to make the PCs the stars. Perhaps the NPCs are needed to stay behind to ward off any further attacks, perhaps they were severely wounded during the incursion, or perhaps they are off adventuring somewhere else and thus in their absence the goblins decided it was the best time to attack.
The point of the matter is, there is always someone out there who could perform a given task. The problem is that D&D players often assume that nothing else is going on in the world, and the only problem being faced is the one that the PCs are currently dealing with. In a fictional world that a DM has to bring life to, there are all manner of circumstances and tasks that can occupy or overload a given character, and therefore illustrates the necessity of the player characters...who happen to be the only heroes or mercenaries who can engage in an adventure right here, right now. Imagine a corporation where the CEO is tasked with everything, from running copies, to delivering mail, to making coffee. Certainly they are more than capable of doing all of these things, but it is far more effective for them to focus on the major issues, and delegate less daunting tasks to lower level workers. The exact same premise applies to D&D. The PCs are given the tasks and adventures that are important, but that are also within their level of capability to accomplish. Everything else needed to keep the world from falling apart is covered by the rest of the populace in turn, and occurs behind the scenes or is recounted in small tavern tales or grandiose bardic epics.
The setting is fine, I just have a problem with DMs who write NPCs as PCs and expect the players to fall in love with them
No other campaign setting I can think of is this a problem as it is in FR.
My solution has been to remove said annoying NPCs (in particular Elminster).
[splice]
I don't have a problem with the presence of said NPCs but rather how authors have used them in novels I find to be very tacky and tasteless (Elminster in Hell is a classic example and was arguably one of the worst pieces of trite I've ever read in an FR setting).
Novels tend to be written from the perspective of a single protagonist, or one or more groups of protagonists, who are essentially the “adventuring party” that players who read the novels are meant to enjoy the adventure vicariously through. For purposes of the novel, they are the PC and are expected to be seen in all the glory of a player character, who is generally more powerful than most of the beings in the world, save for a few key enemies and allies.
Eventually these novel characters get translated into a statistical NPC, once they become a stable background piece in the campaign setting. It is then that the same mentality that was seen in the novel (i.e. hero/heroine X always saves the day, so why should I bother) ends up sinking into the mentality of the game table. It is for this reason that DMs need to follow the guidelines in the FRCS, and establish the precedent there are other things going on in the world that require the attention of other characters, and hence the reason why the PCs are needed.
As for Elminster in Hell, my personal theory is that it was part and parcel of the “Mystra bashing/marginalizing” aspect of early 3E, and was a twist thrown out for all the gamers who wanted a sort of catharsis session where Elminster is torn apart. As for the novel itself, while probably not the most wondrous tale ever written, it hardly contained anything over the top vis-à-vis the characters involved. If you look at the statistics of the Lords of Baator, specifically Bel the Lord of Avernus, you then can easily extrapolate that there are not going to be too many other denizens of the first layer who can stand up to the likes of the Simbul, Halaster, and the Srinshee...specifically when they are bolstered by massive arsenals of magic items and/or blessings of Mystra. Going one step further, if you take the fact that no deities reside in Baator (Player’s Guide to Faerun), and if you assume Asmodeus is the most powerful denizen of that plane, then in turn there wouldnt be anyone in Baator at all who could stand up to Mystra.
The game statistics for many of the characters involved did not come out until many years after the novel was written, and when those statistics did see publication it actually illustrated that Elminster, the Simbul, Mystra, etc would have fared far better in Avernus than as described in that tale, specifically when you factor in things like wish, epic spells, and the powers of a Greater Deity. If anything, Greenwood downplayed the power of these characters to create a more dramatic story, and to give the community an example where Elminster was in peril.
The reason why the Chosen of Mystra appear “invincible” in the novels is because, as far as 95% of Faerûn is concerned, they effectively are invincible, as in among the population as a whole there are very few people in Faerûn who have matching character levels or challenge ratings. One should hardly be surprised when they effortlessly disintegrate a red wizard or zhentarim assassin in a novel given that the vast majority of listed NPCs and random encounters for those groups could not stand up to them at the game table.
Well said.
But my personal opposition to the Chosen, isnt from their existance, but how there are used.Just read some of the statements currently used in some threads, where everything is solved by Chosen intervention.
Everything being solved by intervention by the Chosen is simply not possible under the rules or the guidelines for using those NPCs. The circumstances where such powerful characters should be used by a DM, such as massive Realms-shaking events, a major battle in their area of influence, or a massive wizard-war are extremely rare, and even in those cases the intervention is hardly that necessary. You could run an entire campaign around a massive invasion of Aglarond, or Silverymoon, or Waterdeep, and not once have the Simbul, or Alustriel, or the Blackstaff directly appear, and still the PCs and the NPC good guys could manage to turn back the siege in the end.
The theory of mystras power rivaling Ao, because of the Chosens existance
The theory I believe you are referring to, briefly mentioned in The Seven Sisters, is one of the many theories that characters/NPCs in the campaign setting use to describe the origins of the Chosen. According to that theory, Mystra was possibly ordered by a greater authority (i.e. Ao) to lessen her own power by rooting it in mortals (there are other theories in that book as well, such as the one that explains the Chosen of Mystra as a method for the deity to avoid total destruction, such as during the Time of Troubles). Therefore Mystra’s power does not rival Ao because of the Chosen, but rather Mystra is weaker because of them.
Mystra’s excess power is not because she has Chosen, it is because Faerun is a polytheistic society, and characters can indirectly give worship one god or another at a given time, depending on their needs or concerns. A world as rich in magic as Faerun, combined with the central role in its governance held by Mystra, in turn causes her to have many indirect worshippers in addition to the worship she gains from of her own clergy. That explains why her power kept increasing, and in turn why it was (supposedly) necessary for her to divide it by rooting it in mortals, and explains why Shar has created (or “borrowed”, depending on which source you defer to) the Shadow Weave to siphon off much of this indirect worship, and in turn attempt to weaken her rival over time.
the overuse of the chosen( making appear in most inlikely places, like when durnen&mirt face of a beholder in skullport, whats the point of Els being there)
I am not familiar with the scene, therefore I cannot comment on it directly. What I can tell you is that novels, and the events that occur within them, are not indicative of commonplace everyday events in Faerun. Moreover the fact that Elminster dropped in to save one of his close friends does not inherently mean that he is likewise going to drop in on every gaming session to perform similar feats for the PCs. Beyond that, statistically speaking if Mirt the Moneylender encountered a hostile Beholder then the end result would either be an obese statue (flesh to stone), a large impression in a nearby wall (telekinesis; violent thrust, ad infinitum), or a exceptionally large pile of dust (disintegrate). The Old Wolf, despite being a 13th level character, simply does not have the means to randomly take on a Beholder...other than to run away and use his mercantile connections to buy some better equipment (starting with a ranged weapon)...and possibly retrain some skill ranks while he is at it. So I am quite sure Mirt would have been glad for the intervention.
the diference of treatment between mystra and her chosen and other gods and their chosen(personally going to rescue El in Baator)
Now here you are simply mistaken, and since this is a very common misconception I am going to take a few minutes with this one.
According to the web enhancement for Faiths and Pantheons, which describes how to use and how not to use the Deities in a campaign, the authors state that it would be perfectly acceptable for Bane to send an avatar to defend Fzoul or his temple at Zhentil Keep if it was attacked. Meanwhile, according to The Player’s Handbook, destroying an artifact with Mordenkainen’s disjunction can likewise attract the direct intervention or wrath of a powerful deity or being associated with it.
Elminster, as the last bearer of the essence of the previous Mystra, and a being who carries/carried many of her secrets, is of unimaginable value to Midnight—far moreso than an artifact or arguably even more than Fzoul is to Bane---and therefore it is perfectly appropriate for her to act in such a manner. The only thing ‘improper’ about Mystra’s behavior in Elminster in Hell is that under the game rules, as opposed to pre-determined novel plotlines or post-publication justifications, the full range of powers and abilities Mystra possesses in Faiths and Pantheons (which it should be pointed out wasn’t published until well after the novel was written) would have let her easily rescue Elminster with a simple miracle spell the instant he uttered her name, if you duplicated these events at the game table.
Moreover, any restrictions on the Faerûnian pantheon for either manifesting themselves directly or sending an avatar are in relation to the prime material plane of Toril. The Nine Hells of Baator are one of the Outer Planes, and one where no other deities reside, and therefore the gods have carte-blanche to behave however they see fit there.
In fact, it isn’t even unprecedented in more erudite and classical literature for Deities to intervene on behalf of a beloved or prominent mortal servant, such as Homer’s The Illiad. In that epic, the goddess Aphrodite personally swoops down from Olympus to intervene in a battle to keep a beloved greek hero (Aeneas) from being killed, and--just like Mystra--Aphrodite is equally ridiculously driven off by a lesser attacker (Diomedes). Just like Mystra’s actions in the much more contemporary and comparatively minor work of fiction, the purpose of such a deity intervening and being driven back in this scene in the Illiad was to create mythical showiness and to allow a given character to survive or highlight his importance, without completely ruining the plot by having Deity in turn lay waste to all the antagonists. If either scene had been played at a D&D game table, then either Mystra or Aphrodite would have slaughtered as many Exiled Archdevils/Trojan Warriors as they liked, and could have effortlessly rescued their mortal favourites without even appearing in combat at all.
and them some details of their existance that are poorly justified( quilue existance..
Qilué’s background and origins are fully detailed in The Seven Sisters, and her existence is no less justifiable than any of a dozen other obscure or nonstandard characters in the realms.
dove and storm activities-more likely of chosen of torm or tyr than mystra
Here you are making speculative assumptions about the role of purpose of a Chosen, of Mystra.
The only generic definitions of what it means to be a Chosen of a deity can be found in the last line of the Harpers organization entry in the FRCS, where it describes the general concept of a Chosen as “characters specially selected by deities to serve them at particularly dangerous tasks and who therefore are given special powers”
As for the more specific role of Mystra’s Chosen, itis briefly described in the last paragraph of the Seven Sisters entry under organizations in the Realms, where the Chosen of Mystra are described as “unaging mortals who hold some portion of the power of the Weave at Mystra’s request. They serve as Mystra’s agents in the world and aid all good folk against those who would harm of enslave them” I personally see nothing in the history or daily doings of Dove or Storm that conflict with any of those statements.
The Chosen of Mystra are not meant to serve as paragons of clerical dogma, or serve as the infallible head of the church. They are simply mortals who carry and safeguard a portion of Mystra’s power, and in turn gain many (relatively) minor benefits from it. It is generally the required role of Mystra’s clergy and the Magister to see to the proliferation of magic in the realms. While the Chosen of Mystra do contribute greatly to Mystra’s goals in terms of magic in the realms, by creating new spells and magic items, instructing apprentices, and confronting those who abuse magic, there is nothing in the text to outright suggest that such duties are their sole required function.
As for most specific examples, I will get to those in later replies.
no chosen are of evil alignment
Again you are making groundless assumptions as to the nature of being a Chosen of a deity. You are assuming that because a deity has a good aligned Chosen, that they in turn MUST have an equal number of evil aligned Chosen. There simply is no such requirement or guideline listed anywhere to suggest that.
Mystra’s Chosen carry and safeguard a portion of her own divine power at her request. I cannot imagine anyone ever, as a good or neutral aligned player character, handing over their belt of magnificence +6, ring of three wishes, and +5 vorpal greatsword over to an evil NPC to “safeguard” those items for them in the event that they might one day need them back in the future. Mystra doesn't hand over a portion of her divine essense to just anyone, and an evil character by definition is more likely to abuse it or betray her if/when she needs it back. Mystra learned that the hard way when it came to Sammaster...her power and his own failings caused his fall from grace, and in has reaped more problems for the realms than it has solved (Cult of the Dragon anyone?).
the existence of the magister(?)
The Magister exists to promote the use of magic in the Realms, and they in turn are given abilities that specifically aid them in that task. The Chosen of Mystra exist as enduring safeguards of Mystra’s power and the Weave, by carrying it within them, and in turn are given abilities to keep them alive for centuries if not longer (+10 CON; immunity to aging, disease, etc; silver fire), so that they will always be there should she need that power back.
the prohibition of simbuls attack Thay-when thay is likely much more important to mystra that aglarond ever was)
It is largely inaccurate to say that Thay is "more" important to Mystra than Aglarond, specifically in light of its population demographics and when the activities of the Red Wizards only recently became beneficial to Mystra’s aims at all.
Of the 5,000,000 or so inhabitants of Thay, approximately 3,500,000 are slaves or the monstrous creatures that guard them. Barring the most extreme circumstances, it is more than fair to assume that slaves are not commonly instructed in the Art of wizardry, at least not as long as they are still slaves. In fact, it is illegal to teach wizardry to anyone who is not a Mulan human. It is also more than fair to assume that any slave (or arguably any citizen at all) with the talent for sorcery can quickly wind up as subject of magical experimentation or sacrifice, and one with a short life expectancy. By and large, the majority of slaves are either 1st level humanoid commoners, or low CR monstrous creatures without class levels.
Because the Red Wizards are the key monopolistic arcane organization in Thay, one can also easily assume that the overwhelming majority of wizards in Thay are either Red Wizards or the apprentices of a Red Wizard. According to Lords of Darkness, the entire Red Wizard organization consists of 6,000 members; 1,000 of which are actual Red Wizards (i.e. 6th level or above, with at least one level in the Red Wizard prestige class), and the remaining 5,000 are their apprentices (wizards of 1st-5th level with the Tattoo Focus feat).
Meanwhile Mystra has no open worshippers in Thay, and no open temples therein, and many of the deities worshiped in Thay are her personal enemies.
That essentially means of a population of 5,000,000 people, only 6,000 are spellcasters whose actions can potentially benefit Mystra.
By contrast, Aglarond has roughly the same number of free citizens as Thay does. The random demographics of the un-detailed segements population will be roughly the same, with the exception that Aglarond encourages and has prominent members of all spellcasting classes, whereas Thay only encourages wizardry, it only does so in a specific segment and subrace of its population. While all Thayan mulan human youths are tested for magicl aptitude at a young age and sent on the path of a Red Wizard, many of them die during their grueling apprenticeship. By contrast, anyone in Aglarond with the aptitude for the art who needs instruction can receive it. The elven blooded population consists of many sorcerers, who descended from the lost realm of Yuireshaanyar, whose High Magic legacies endure to this day. Since sorcerers require a fraction of the training in the art that a wizard does, and given that sylvan subculture of Aglarond has a more than healthy appreciation of magic, the Yuirwood is entirely self sufficient in training and support of a healthy populace of arcane spellcasters . As for the human coastal population, anyone with an aptitude for the art and who is in need of instruction can have it arranged for them by the Simbul, usually by sending them off to be an apprentice of another Aglarondan mage or, in the case of the most promising students, trained by the Witch-Queen herself.
Prior to 1371 DR, the safety and well-being of the Red Wizards of Thay was not important to Mystra, as they not only did not worship her or remotely honor her dogma, but rather persecuted her followers, persecuted anyone born with an innate talent for the art and connection to the weave (sorcerers), and persistently abused the Art for conquest and subjugation of the realms...or at least attempted to do so. The former two they are still guilty of, but the latter has changed, and that is the reason why the Simbul no longer outright attacks them unprovoked.
Mystra foresaw the eventual rise of Thay, and took steps to ensure they could not conquer the realms with magic, and the sixth of her seven daughters was the key to this strategy. Mystra approached the Witches of Rashemen soon after the seven sisters were born, and she left Alassra in their care. In exchange for raising her daughter, Mystra gave the witches the powerful place magic/spirit magic that allowed them to control Rashemen politically and defend it from future Thayan incursions. Doing so not only ensured Thay would never make any significant military advancements north, but it also cemented ties between Alassra and the Unapproachable East, even if she would spend many centuries wandering the realms and the Outer Planes. Eventually circumstances likewise resulted in Alassra coming to Aglarond, where she would be known as the Simbul, and eventually succeed to the throne, and in turn isolate Thay from its hopes of military conquest into the west.
It was only after years of failed military conquests the imperialist faction lost influence and Thay approached Aglarond, Rashemen, and other neighbors with a truce, and a new political faction (mercantilists under the Guild of Foreign Trade) bent Thay towards a new direction of mass producing magic items for trade across the realms. When this occurred, the dynamic changed, as the Red Wizards were now doing something that coincided with Mystra’s aims, and that empowered her.
Therefore, the Simbul is currently forbidden from attacking Red Wizards outright, unless to defend others. Instead Mystra instructed her to use more subtle magic to influence the Red Wizards and the political climate in Thay towards Mystra’s aims, and to reinforce, sustain, and expand the ancient magical wards of her own kingdom.
Why don't the 5th level NPC's solve the problem that the first level PC's are given? Simple, they have things more dangerous to fight now, they have a reputation grander and more diverse than yours and are thus trusted with bigger issues. Then again, maybe there are none in the area, or you happened to be the first able bodied group to come through. Maybe the last group perished, as adventuring parties tend to. Given two years, an adventuring party of a dozen will most likely change entirely from the original members. Or maybe, the big bad organization, or guys trying to stop you, ARE the other adventuring party. Not all adventures have to be slay the orc, get the gold.
Exactly.
Then again I never said that the Chosen of mystra solved every problem that arises. But the fact that so many people think it so must make you wonder why?
If the people who think so are operating from a D&D perspective, then it makes me wonder why they or their DM has not read the "Running the Realms" chapter of the FRCS. If they did, then they would not believe so. If the people who think so are operating from a novel perspective, then it makes me wonder as to how diverse their FR reading list is, and why they would think a novel like Silverfall, or Siege of Darkness, or The Return of the Archwizards trilogy is indicative of every day life in the realms.
In various novels, said chosen are often used in such manner, and are given the role of a sort of ''police'' for the realms.It's not my opinion that they are a said ''police'', or even that they should be, but that the idea that is understated by various autors, and maybe, just maybe, that why many DM's make use of Chosen in such a way (however wrong that may be).
Again, novels depicting realms-shaking events, like The Return of the Archwizards or the Time of Troubles, do not represent everyday life in Faerûn. In the case of novels focusing on a specific chosen, like Blackstaff or The Simbul’s Gift, we see those characters acting within their own agendas and their own regions of influence.
Has the simbuls post stated, the chosen arent solely a group of superpowered being that does things on whim, but agents of the goddess of magic on Faerun, advancing her cause on several fronts, so my question is: What have Dove, Storm and Sylune done recently for mystra cause? Have they developed new magic? Created new magic items? Spread magical knowledge? Engaged in the spreading of the use of magic among the common people?
You really need to download The Seven Sisters and read it cover to cover, because all of the Sisters have done all of the above and more.
The Seven Sisters, p 50-51
“Syluné decided she could best serve Mystra by settling down in one spot and nurturing a community there, so that common folk could see that magic could be used to aid them, not just as a bludgeoning weapon. In time, she hoped that her home could become a center of magical learning. Mystra agreed, and Syluné explored the Realms for some centuries, learning mastery of magic when she could, and ultimately chose Shadowdale to settle in. She married Aumry, Lord of the Dale, and set about defending her adopted community.
Syluné traveled the Realms learning magic from many hermits, druids and priests as well as liches and mages. What she could not wield herself, she determined at least to learn all about. These jaunts gave her a wide circle of acquaintances among the powerful human and demihuman wielders of magic in Faerûn. She even (in disguise) dwelt among the mages of Thay for a time, and she later trained with the Witches of Rashemen. She also visited Kara-Tur on many occasions. (She once said of the magic of that far eastern land, “It’s more effete but not more effective than ours. If the wu-jen mages of Kara-Tur were half as good as they think they are, western realms would have cause to be humble—or fearful.”)
In her travels, Syluné found and used the scepter of Savras, which contained the essence of the god Savras the All-Seeing, who had been defeated by Azuth long ago. It allowed the wielder to work infallible divination magic of all sorts. One simply indicated the desired knowledge, and the scepter went about gaining all information it could on the subject.”
The Seven Sisters, p25
“Dove also privately believes that too many beings who wield magic in Faerûn become corrupted by it. They come to think of themselves as special, as if their ability to harm others by spells gives them the right to do so. As a result, Dove is not slow to slay those who seek to strike her down with magic. As she put it once, “The thoughts in the heads of many wizards are markedly improved by making those heads lonely for their shoulders.”
When she first began to cull cruel tyrants from the ranks of mages, long ago, Azuth responded by sending Dove dream visions every time she slew a wizard. Each vision showed Dove teaching magic to a wide-eyed youngster. Dove was not slow to get the message, and every time she takes the life of a wizard, even without realizing she or he worked magic, such visions return, even today. They continue until Dove finds a youngling who resembles the one shown to her in her dreams. Dove gives these envisioned youths a handful of spells and guides them through the castings until they can control these few magics.
On several occasions, she has returned years later to see what has become of those she set on the road to mastery of magic. In some cases, she finds those she aided have become fledgling tyrants—and if possible, she tries to steer them straight with a sharp lesson rather than slaying them out of hand. More often, she finds people who have been exploited for their limited magic or embittered by their own misuse of it, inability to find new spells, or lack of tutelage by which to grow in the Art. To these, she gives guidance or another spell or two to help them along. She has found her way into ballads as “the Wandering Witch” for her pains, and--in distorted form, of course--has drifted into local legend in a halfdozen countries of Faerûn as “the Lady in Green”, a fey creature who toys with folk as often as she capriciously aids them. She is also regarded as a gods-sent friend by dozens of magic-wielders across the Realms.”
Syluné and Storm have apprenticed hundreds of Harper mages, have created many spells and magic items including those of their own design, and performed untold other activities and tasks in the service of Mystra, which may very well include keeping Shadowdale and its environs (i.e. Myth Drannor) safe until the return of the elves. Dove has slain untold numbers of mages who have abused the art to persecute or subjugate the weak, and for each one destroyed has been sent visions of one she should apprentice it its place. Meanwhile Syluné is arguably one of the most far traveled of the Seven Sisters, has studied numerous magical traditions and folkways, and is the last known mortal to have wielded the Scepter of Savras. That alone is more than enough cause to seek her out for an apprenticeship, and makes her a very valuable teacher indeed.
You also should glance at the Silver Marches, Unapproachable East, and City of Splendors: Waterdeep for an idea of how much the other Chosen have influenced the spread of magical knowledge in the regions in which they reside. Silverymoon has one of the foremost arcane academies in all of Faerun, Aglarond’s overabundant population of elven-blooded sorcerers descended from Yuireshannyar, and its population of humans with magical potential are both well maintained by the Simbul’s willingness to arrange for the apprenticeship of anyone with magical aptitude, and the roster of apprentices of Blackstaff Academy are quite impressive and diverse.
More to the point, Mystra’s Chosen have a very specific role in terms of their relationship to Mystra. They are persons selected to carry and safeguard a portion of the power of the weave within them at Mystra’s request, and in doing so gain some powers from that bargain. They do act as Mystra’s agents in the world, but their role is quite different from that of the Magister or Mystra’s clergy, and one should not inherently assume they are "required" to do any of the tasks associated with those groups unless it specifically says so.
Why do the chosen present a tendency to linger around Shadowdale? Why there's isnt a single Chosen that has settled himself in the south(below the sea of fallen star area)? Has Mystra no interrest in those regions? Why isnt a chosen with evil alignment(because it would abuse of the power?but the magister wouldnt?)?
If someone knows why, please tell, because i belive that some of these questions go to core of the anti chosen sentiment.
There can be an infinite number of potential reasons for why Mystra has steered her Chosen towards specific geographic areas. Perhaps these are fault lines or nexuses in the Weave that must be tended. Perhaps Elminster, Storm, and Syluné watch over Shadowdale because of its proximity to Myth Drannor, and with the return of the elves, may no longer need to do so. Perhaps the Simbul was deliberately handed over to the Witches of Rashemen as a baby, and perhaps Mystra eventually steered her towards Aglarond as well, in order to act as a buffer against Thay and to isolate and manipulate the Red Wizards towards Mystra’s aims and goals. Perhaps Khelben and Qilué both specifically gravitated to the region of Waterdeep because it rests upon the ruins of Ardeep, where their predecessor Aloevan once ruled in both the service of Mystra and other deities among the Seldarine. Perhaps the reason why no (known) Chosen of Mystra resides in the south is because Halruua alone more than bolsters Mystra’s direct and indirect worship there, through both her large amount of clergy in that land, as well as its almost demographically-impossible large population of wizards.
The main point however is that there is no reason for them not to be in one given area or another, and it doesn't need any justification at all.
Sylune was working on modifying most of her spells so that they worked in her current state, presumably contributing much to the concepts of Silent, Still, and Eschew Materials/Ignore Material Components feats in the Realms, presuming she passed on what she had learned to her siblings and El. At least according to Seven Sisters she was, which, presuming I'm correct in the extension of the ideas in that book, all helps with the growth of magic, albeit in a limited fashion given her current condition.
Dove, was usually tasked with finding a young worker of magic to teach and foster for every evil mage she took out, often receiving visions of who that person was supposed to be from Azuth. Usually that involved showing them the proper methods of casting a few spells and helping them to get a few spells in their new spellbooks, and them getting them well on their way. Additionally, she seemed to look in on a few of them later on, providing them with additional spells and encouragement, or rebukes and corrections if they went off in a direction she didn't approve of. That's a pretty damned good contribution to the spread of magic, if you ask me anyway.
Storm... well, Storm is Storm, and her doings are way too complicated in the time and space I wish to spend on this. So again, just take a look at the Seven Sisters book and perhaps come away with a better understanding of these NPC's, and much more perspective on the way they are intended to work in the Realms.
:D
Now if only I would get into the habit of reading all of the replies in the thread before making my lengthy responses to each specific question, then I would have realized you and others already answered many of them for me.
Alright first things first. If someone doesn't agree with you, the smart arse comments and jokes are not needed.
If to some person facts are synonymous with “jokes”, and game rules and guidelines are synonymous with “smart arse” comments, then I guess that is slightly more illuminating of how that person might arrive to many of the opinions they express on these boards, and why that person might get so spitefully defensive whenever they find something contradicting those views.
People that come to these boards have the right to like something and not like something.
Yes they do, and that also includes the right to not like statements that slander the Forgotten Realms as an “unplayable” setting because of the existence of a dozen or so non-player characters. It also includes the right to openly and unapologetically refute those pernicious and erroneous sentiments about the Forgotten Realms, either individually or in a more general discussion such as this one, specifically when those erroneous statements are excessively propounded in numerous venues of internet discussion, and when they are already discounted and refuted in the most basic rulebooks required for playing a D&D game in the Forgotten Realms.
Making people feel uncomfortable about their posts is the wrong way to go. And some of you, you know who you are, like to try and make others that don't agree feel or look stupid...
... If someone doesn't agree with that opinion then fine, but when you try and make others look stupid to change their ideas about the situation only makes you look like an ass.[/
If being presented with facts make someone feel stupid, or is otherwise a detrimental experience for them, then that is a personal problem. If those facts are already spelled out in the minimal required rulebooks needed for running a D&D game in the FR, and those facts are still ignored, then having those errors specifically and blatantly pointed out for them is the only option left, because in a perfect world people would read an entire sourcebook before making snap judgments about its contents and value.
You can sit there and give "your" version or "opinion" all day long, but unless you have concrete written proof it is still an opinion.
I cannot help but laugh at the supreme irony of this statement in light of the source.
My arguments expressed on these boards come from extrapolating conclusions from written and quotable published sources, and when necessary I provide quotations or page numbers to back them up. Others unfortunately tend to make snap judgments about game content, which seem to often be based on tidbits of incomplete information acquired from a second or third party source, or in other off handed message board discussions.
Now, anyway I still hate the Chosen.
Aye, we all certainly needed to cast a legend lore or succeed a DC 30 bardic knowledge check to divine that piece of information :D
Elminster, I really hate that character. His whole, having this and that spell available at just the right time for that one situation that has either come up before a long time ago or is the first time is really old.
Congratulations, you just described every wizard character in virtually every fantasy novel ever written. More precisely, you just described virtually every protagonist in nearly every adventure/fantasy novel written.
Being able to do somethings that he isn't supposed to do, or have a certain power at that moment and at no other time is really annoying. I know it's a novel, but thats how the characters are written, not for NPC's.
...
There is a sequence of events that have happened where the Chosen just happen to survive, but if you did it from a game point of view most of the Chosen wouldn't be here, a bad roll of the dice most likely would have killed on off a while back, or something got a hold of them when they wern't so powerful. The scenerios are endless.
If you are going to defame a character and/or how they are portrayed, then you need to give an example, instead of the hollow repetitive tedious statements that so many people espouse, and rarely every back up.
By all means, please give a specific example where Elminster did something he was completely and utterly incapable of ever accomplishing under the rules of the game. Because I certainly would love to know what events and actions are completely beyond the scope of all comprehendible ability of a wizard of Elminster’s experience, resources, allies, and abilities. For simplicities sake, roughly half of these supposedly impossible feats of heroism could be attributed to a simple wish spell, or any of the thousands of both published wizard spells or magic items and/or spells or magic items he may have personally researched, invented, or varianced.
As for the supposedly endless incidents where the Chosen of Mystra “just happen” to survive, for every one of them I would wager there are a dozen or more novel instances where the Chosen were subject to harm or circumstances that would never have befallen them at all if the game rules were used to adjudicate the situation.
If you incorporated them into a game after a while they won't be the most powerful, your PC's will be.
That would be the point of the “Make the PCs the Stars” rule that I referenced...which apparently along with the rest of the game rules I mentioned in my opening statement is just another “smart arse opinion” of mine that isn’t actually “backed up” by the rules.
The problem on these boards is a thing Xun mentioned in another statement: that if your statement is a negative one towards the core elements of the Setting (as the Chosen of Mystra and the concept which they represent) you get flamed by dozens of posters (who feel responsible for holding up the rules of the game or whatever) who after making you look like an idiot because you haven't read all the novels about the chosen and their folks tell you that you don't have to use them in your cmapaign and think this is a usefull advice.
[snip]
...[Who by the way very often show their "superiority" by naming countless novels and 2nd edition source books which in my opinion isn't necessary, just show your knowledge if someone askes for help in many other situations you seem just like a teacher teaching someone a lesson, and that makes me feel quite uncomfortable.]
While many do people suffer the disadvantage of a lack of access to older material, out of print sources, or simply do not have the time to read everything pertaining to an issue, that is hardly an excuse for being offended or crying foul when someone who has read those sources points out the discrepancy.
Moreover, the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting hardcover book is hardly an obscure, out of print, or esoteric text that only a handful of realms elitists use or have read. It is a required source for any Forgotten Realms campaign, specifically required reading for the DM. In it, you learn that there are 68,000,000 civilized inhabitants of Faerûn, and there are roughly less than a dozen Chosen of Mystra. That, along with the guidelines in the Running the Realms chapter and Concerns of the Mighty sidebar, is enough to drive home the fact that Mystra’s Chosen will never be an impediment or plot spoiler for any campaign that is run by a competent DM, unless the DM specifically chooses to include them.
If people are offended by being presented with facts in a discussion, or if they get defensive about it, then honestly that is their problem. If someone posts their "I'm going to kill off Mystra’s Chosen in my next campaign because they are ruining the game and overshadowing my players” notions in a message board discussion, then they should expect their claims to be discussed, criticized, refuted, and corrected with references to the rules and guidelines already built into the campaign which cover that non-issue.
Moreover, if people persistently slam the Forgotten Realms because of problems that functionally do not exist, and in turn contribute to plethora the erroneous internet chatter that damages the setting’s reputation, then the fans of the campaign setting, who have at the very least read the minimal amount of books (1) needed to run a FR campaign, have all the right in the world to correct them.
Discussions on the intricacies and abilities of Drizzt Do’Urden, the literary works of R.A. Salvatore, and the ethnic stereotypes of European ethnicities (ascribed to oneself or otherwise) at best are unrelated to the topic, or at worst violate the code of conduct. As such, they need to be taken elsewhere, and would attract more readers interested in those topics if placed within their own thread, bearing a title describing the subject.
This thread doesn’t need to be locked due an overabundance of side discussions unrelated to the topic. Alternatively, on the same note, this thread also doesn’t need the potential for it to be sabotaged by anyone who might happen to disagree with the original topic, and find that hijacking the thread or violating the CoC would be the only way to get rid of the discussion altogether...specifically in an absence of the ability to counter the points originally raised.
'Back away from this one, it's a Realms shaking event that's off the Richter scale, which means it's a job for the professionals. You go lay some smack down on evil shopkeepers or something'. Cue seventies crime drama music as Ed Greenwood's fantasy porn agents break down the door and shoulder roll into the room, like some lively scripted episode of Charlie's angels.
It's obviously an issue otherwise why in earlier 1st/2nd Ed published modules would it include text about some contrived excuses why Elminster isn't around.
'Oh he's on holiday...yeah that's right ummmm Mt. Celestia I think he said'.
'O.K no prob Lhaeo my main scribe dude, say you wouldn't have Storm Silverhand on speed dial would you?'
Ah, Elminster in Hell wasn't that the horrific sight? The big A (one of the three primeval beings of the multiverse) gets pwned by some uppity young teenybopper god fresh out of divine school!!!! There's creative liberty and there's CREATIVE LIBERTY. What that was was bang out of order.
Not trolling, I happen to believe at one time the Forgotten Realms had potential as a dynamic and involving campaign world, but it has been lost through over saturation of one or two novels chasing the New York Times Bestseller list (cough, cough) and designers in the mistaken belief that to keep gamer's money out of their pockets requires investing ninja essence and wolverine spare parts into a campaign world. Still it's not all doom and gloom, Eberron is shaping up quite nicely, sound design philosophy and engaging background material, can't be bad.
Not trolling, I happen to believe at one time the Forgotten Realms had potential as a dynamic and involving campaign world, but it has been lost through over saturation of one or two novels chasing the New York Times Bestseller list (cough, cough) and designers in the mistaken belief that to keep gamer's money out of their pockets requires investing ninja essence and wolverine spare parts into a campaign world. Still it's not all doom and gloom, Eberron is shaping up quite nicely, sound design philosophy and engaging background material, can't be bad.
Not trolling? Could have fooled me.
I don't have anything to say except, go and read what The Simbul has written.
Edited my feminist comments out.
Also, you actually managed to make something a little clearer to me. Could it be that there is so much hatred directed towards Mystra and some of her Chosen because they are female? No male character (with perhaps the exceptions of Elminster and Drizzt (I hardly ever see anyone railing against Khelben)) seems to generate this much hatred. I wonder what others might make of that idea? I'm sure there are plenty of guys who would get upset at the suggestion that they're subconsciously angry and jealous that some of the most powerful NPCs in the Realms are female.
I'm throwing this out there because I know it will get a reaction (I don't know how else to introduce this idea, I'm not really trying to troll) - I'm interested in seeing if there's any degree of agreement, though - or am I completely wrong? I'd like to be proven wrong, actually, as I'd like to think better of the gaming industry as a whole, but even to this day girl gamers are marginalized, and hardly ever catered to.
Oh noes, feminism again! ;)
To be more serious: I'd say no. El is the most maligned NPC I've ever seen in the Realms, far more than any female character. Except, perhaps, for Mystra.
Not trolling? Could have fooled me.
No honestly I'm really not, trolling would imply a measure of concern over the path FR has been heading over the years.
I don't have anything to say except, go and read what The Simbul has written.
Oh I read it, some shaky demographic analysis using the weird science of D.M.G rules to reinforce the premise the sisters in da hood can't be in all places at all times, followed by a tirade of painful fawning by other posters. Sound enough in principle still doesn't change the fact most of the things P.C's could achieve will inevitably be overshadowed by high level N.P.C's. As for world shattering events, why the P.C's would even get out of bed in the morning is beyond me when sweet cheeks and his girl power brigade have all the angles covered. Here's one I recalled just this second that made me laugh out loud, I remember reading the 3rd Ed campaign setting and I think it's just after the timeline events it reads something like 'It would appear the balance of power in Faerun is shifting blah blah blah', well just thinking back to that it got shifted back right quick, being that two major plot-centric themes have already been explored in the novels!!!!
Also, you actually managed to make something a little clearer to me. Could it be that there is so much hatred directed towards Mystra and some of her Chosen because they are female?
Before someone tries to snidely turn this into a gender issue let me say this: I applaud Ed Greenwood's efforts to give women roles of prominence in his creation I might be persuaded to clap a little louder if there was some incentive to attribute those same women some characterization responsibly other than as the 'headboard bangers' they are portrayed as in order to prove just how studly Azoun and Elminster are. Hey the Simbul is the fiery one must have some in depth personalization going on there! (It's not called Ed's fantasy porn for nothing y'know.) Don't get me wrong Ed Greenwood is a good enough writer for the fast paced superficial high fantasy yarn, but the discerning reader looking for something a bit more mature I recommend looking elsewhere, if not other than FR then at least Elaine Cunningham may fit the bill.
You do realize that El in Hell was written with the current cosmology and mindset largely in mind, right? In which Asmodeus is NOT a deity?
Yes I am aware of that unfortunately, still doesn't make sense though. Asmodeus IS and WILL ALWAYS be an Overgod regardless of a flavour of the month plot device.
I am not trying to flame away, or troll, but the novels really make them one dimensional characters with incredibly bad dialog. With that as a mental image it can be at times difficult to erase the very average prose, and proceed to using them based on their descriptions. As written they come across as, well for lack of a better term cheesy, or rather, as cliche as can be. Mostly I am making reference to the Simbul, who in every novel I have read comes across as a woman having multiple "monthly visitors" at once, from a purely juvenile male perspective. Alustriel could not be more perfect, and this makes her in my mind a cardboard cut out. Sylune well she seems like she was one of the interesting ones, unfortunately she offed herself to take out a dragon. Laeral was insane for the longest time, and then became Khelben's appendage. Dove dropped off the face of published material (too bad she had potential because she had real weaknesses). Storm, well my favorite has the most varied approach, is unpredicable, genuinely cares, and comes across as someone you might actually want to meet in real life. Qilue well, lets not go there. That's it for the seven sisters, and they all ,even the good ones still come across as a man writing a woman, and not very well. I am sure the avalanche of fanboys is about to fall upon me.
Khelben an enigma in what I have read (mystery what a novel idea). Elminster clearly a deus ex machina, Gandalf wannabe. This as written in the novels. As described in the gaming material they all had great potential, but add in the ever present existence of dialog worthy of the Star Wars Prequels, and well I have often wished I could erase it from my memory. Of course I have been trying to erase the Highlander sequels from my brain for a good 15 years or so with minimal success.
I understand the purpose of the characters, what archetypes they represent, and their general utility for the realms. I leave it at that. I have to ignore the way they are presented in the novels because if I used them as a guideline, and roleplayed them as depicted my players would honestly die laughing.
No honestly I'm really not, trolling would imply a measure of concern over the path FR has been heading over the years.
No, if you didn't care at all, you wouldn't post at all.
You are responding to people with logical arguments grounded in the world canon and the game's mechanics with insults and tirades. You are not being reasonable, you're not addressing the points people are making with counter points. If you have valid points to make, by all means make them - but please refrain from insulting people and denigrating the setting as you do so.
If you truely don't care about the Realms, might I suggest you seek other sections of the forum?
Before someone tries to snidely turn this into a gender issue let me say this: I applaud Ed Greenwood's efforts to give women roles of prominence in his creation I might be persuaded to clap a little louder if there was some incentive to attribute those same women some characterization responsibly other than as the 'headboard bangers' they are portrayed as in order to prove just how studly Azoun and Elminster are. Hey the Simbul is the fiery one must have some in depth personalization going on there! (It's not called Ed's fantasy porn for nothing y'know.) Don't get me wrong Ed Greenwood is a good enough writer for the fast paced superficial high fantasy yarn, but the discerning reader looking for something a bit more mature I recommend looking elsewhere, if not other than FR then at least Elaine Cunningham may fit the bill.
Snidely? Well maybe I could have worded my idea a little more delicately or carefully, but I happen to be interested in feminist issues, being a female myself, and I am starting to see a vague connection between hatred of the Chosen and the fact that most of them are female.
People don't make these complaints about male characters of the Realms with two exceptions - Drizzt and Elminster (with El probably copping it the worst of everyone male or female, poor guy).
In any event, while the foundations of the Forgotten Realms are quite egalitarian, I find my own "needs" being unmet. Obviously enough, the world is marketed to Role Players, and unfortunately for myself, female gamers make a fairly tiny minority, and as such hardly ever get catered to. I'd go into it more, but I suspect I made a mistake this morning when I posted what I did... As such I'm going to go back and edit my last post, since this is not the place for such a discussion - sadly the Wizards boards are probably not the place for this discussion either.
Oh noes, feminism again! ;)
To be more serious: I'd say no. El is the most maligned NPC I've ever seen in the Realms, far more than any female character. Except, perhaps, for Mystra.
Yep, I made a mistake - as you can see I went and edited the original post.
You're right there Dan, the Old Goat cops more flack than he really deserves. ;)
While many do people suffer the disadvantage of a lack of access to older material, out of print sources, or simply do not have the time to read everything pertaining to an issue, that is hardly an excuse for being offended or crying foul when someone who has read those sources points out the discrepancy.
Moreover, the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting hardcover book is hardly an obscure, out of print, or esoteric text that only a handful of realms elitists use or have read. It is a required source for any Forgotten Realms campaign, specifically required reading for the DM. In it, you learn that there are 68,000,000 civilized inhabitants of Faerûn, and there are roughly less than a dozen Chosen of Mystra. That, along with the guidelines in the Running the Realms chapter and Concerns of the Mighty sidebar, is enough to drive home the fact that Mystra’s Chosen will never be an impediment or plot spoiler for any campaign that is run by a competent DM, unless the DM specifically chooses to include them.
... have all the right in the world to correct them.
None of the facts you mention, while reacting on my post, was ever questioned by me. I didn't say there is no way to gain this knowledge, obviuosly;) there is, and I'm not questioning core facts of the realms. I like the way they are and play in them for 15 years happily. With knowledge about them which serves my ends.
But what I meant and hoped to be able to explain is, that everybody can post what he want's and rightfully beeing critisized for it.
But lecturing (as I learned before
but I'm sure to missuse it in the moment
) is not necessary.But than, as I also posted I watched for the phenomena you mentioned, and I had to agree with you.
So thanks for the reply ... I learned my lesson. Finally.
King... sorry, but that looked an awful lot like trolling to me as well there. It would seem that what you're coming at this from is a perspective approach, rather than from an objective point of view. While not many would argue the proliferation of RSE's being a current issue, your problems are all handled by the don't like them, don't use them caveat. If you're running stories that the Chosen would likely get involved in, and you can't see a way for the PC's to survive without having the cavalry showing up, then it sounds more like a problem with the DM rather than the setting.
The flippancy you're approaching the subject with isn't exactly helping you make your points either, since they tend to distract from the 'meat' of whatever point you're trying to make, which soon after gets lost in a wash of flame. Personally, I like Ed's writing, and his portrayal of women in particular, so does my wife. It's a matter of personal taste and opinion, not objective fact. That sort of statement can be made for a lot of what you seem to commenting on as far as I can tell, matters of opinion and perception, while Simbul was approaching this from a demonstrable fact of published material. They are two very different things really, when it comes down to it, and often mutually exclusive.
Yes I am aware of that unfortunately, still doesn't make sense though. Asmodeus IS and WILL ALWAYS be an Overgod regardless of a flavour of the month plot device.
Overgod? Argh.
Overgod? Argh.
Search your heart you know it to be the truth. ;)
No one can argue the fact that E and the other chosen do not have to be in any books you read or in any campaign you play. But that doesn't mean they are good NPC's.
As to Zandilar's point about misogyny...
Fantasy could benefit from having more strong capable women in it.
"Strong capable woman." When I hear that I think Angelena Jolie.
When I hear "Seven Sisters" I think of Dragonball Z characters in drag. Though they act like Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears when they are not fighting.
Of all the possible character concepts to be an icon, you pick these?
Someone said some good things about Eberron. Maybe he's right, and it is designed well. But I'm already bored with it. I've quite reading the novels, and haven't picked up a sourcebook since 5 nations. Also I've looked up the definition of noir, and while there are several, I don't see much noir in it. Another typical d&d setting, except they have trains and warforged.
Well, in all honesty, my wife is of much the same opinion as yourself there concerning latent and not-so-latent misogynistic tendencies in the reactions to Mystra and the Chosen, so perhaps you can take some comfort in that Zandilar.
Well I am rather glad to see I'm not the only one.
The flippancy you're approaching the subject with isn't exactly helping you make your points either, since they tend to distract from the 'meat' of whatever point you're trying to make, which soon after gets lost in a wash of flame. Personally, I like Ed's writing, and his portrayal of women in particular, so does my wife. It's a matter of personal taste and opinion, not objective fact. That sort of statement can be made for a lot of what you seem to commenting on as far as I can tell, matters of opinion and perception, while Simbul was approaching this from a demonstrable fact of published material. They are two very different things really, when it comes down to it, and often mutually exclusive.
I used to like Ed's writing, but I've kind of gone sour on it... Probably not his fault, though. I'd put the blame more on overly eager editors sitting there with a machete purging as much richness from the stories as they can in their blind desire to cut the book back to their strict page count (somewhere between 300 and 400 pages). I'd love it if Ed was allowed to let his pen run where it will (with little or no censorship), even if it means 600 page novels... It works for Robert Jordan, why not for Ed Greenwood? :P
Search your heart you know it to be the truth. ;)
Hey, whatever floats your boat. Overgod is a bit much IMO, but I guess He maybe almost sorta could be considered above Divinity when in the Hells. Maybe;)
When I hear "Seven Sisters" I think of Dragonball Z characters in drag. Though they act like Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears when they are not fighting.
I don't think I can think of one time any of them shaved their head and started showing everyone the poo-nanny. Oh well, maybe when you hit 620 you start acting like your 20 again.;)
:D
Now if only I would get into the habit of reading all of the replies in the thread before making my lengthy responses to each specific question, then I would have realized you and others already answered many of them for me.
Yes, but you do it so well! :D
Yes, but you do it so well! :D
That she does, without saying "That's Hot" even once.:D
IMVO (In My Valued Opinion)
That should probably be "IMPVO (In My Personally Valued Opinion)".
'Back away from this one, it's a Realms shaking event that's off the Richter scale, which means it's a job for the professionals. You go lay some smack down on evil shopkeepers or something'. Cue seventies crime drama music as Ed Greenwood's fantasy porn agents break down the door and shoulder roll into the room, like some lively scripted episode of Charlie's angels.
Less of a problem with the authors, more of a problem of the fans. I'm quite sure (though this is opinion, not backed up by sales figures) that every book with "Elminster" on the cover has outsold the entirety of the "Harpers" line of books. Big things sell, small things don't. This does have a tendancy to produce the "The setting is broken because of X, Y and Z" arguments but if you bother to read what Simbul has wrote you might just be able to see how much of a non-issue this is.
Personally, I still don't have a solid grasp on how magic effects the economic model of the world (especially given the Red Wizards new tactic of selling magic in a more "big box store" sorta way), however I'll likely be left with this problem as hardly anyone who buys the product is interested in economic trends, supply and demand, ect. However, that's a different conversation.
It's obviously an issue otherwise why in earlier 1st/2nd Ed published modules would it include text about some contrived excuses why Elminster isn't around.
Because people keep on complaining about this "issue" so the game designers took 5 minutes to put down some likely excuses for what Elminster could be up to. In a few different novels Elminster has been shown running about the realms, disrupting a magical experiment here, dropping off a clue there, seeding a dungeon with magic in another spot, visiting a friend and then heading home only to get ambushed by a Zhent wizardling. Elminster is also likely to be doing a lot of divination per day, trying to get an idea what the Zhents, Red Wizards, Twisted Rune, Cult of the Dragon, People of the Black Blood, Drow, ect ect ect are up to, so that if they are about to initiate a large plot he'll be a bit more ready. When you're checking in on hundreds of mages you tend to miss things, have a long time between what would basically amount to 5 minutes of checking and any number of other things. All the while making sure you don't expend to many spells, because at any minute you might need to run off to save a friend, stop an assasination attempt against you or something else.
So when the goblin tribe is gearing up to raid a small hamlet in the Dales, well, I'm sorry, but El just don't know. If he did he might jump in to protect the place, then again he might need to run off to make sure a lesser member of the Zhentarim doesn't succeed in his experiment to create cheaper crystal balls (and yes, the Zhents having an almost unlimited supply of crystal balls, or even a large supply of them, would be ABSOLUTELY devistating)
'Oh he's on holiday...yeah that's right ummmm Mt. Celestia I think he said'.
When El takes a vacation, he takes a vacation. I know I need downtime after a long day of work and after a few months I'm ready for a vacation. I've only been doing what I do for 6 or 7 years.
'O.K no prob Lhaeo my main scribe dude, say you wouldn't have Storm Silverhand on speed dial would you?'
Same thing applies to Storm that applies to El.
Ah, Elminster in Hell wasn't that the horrific sight? The big A (one of the three primeval beings of the multiverse) gets pwned by some uppity young teenybopper god fresh out of divine school!!!! There's creative liberty and there's CREATIVE LIBERTY. What that was was bang out of order.
How was he "pwned"? And why do you assume that is was just straight up Mystra "pwning" him? (Big A, while being the big guy in hell, has enemies ALL OVER HELL, if he threw down with a major power he'd be exposing his back to Mephistopheles, just to name one)
Further, why do you think that things didn't go down EXACTLY HOW BIG A wanted? How many times has the Big A "played hurt" to advance his own causes?
Not trolling, I happen to believe at one time the Forgotten Realms had potential as a dynamic and involving campaign world, but it has been lost through over saturation of one or two novels chasing the New York Times Bestseller list (cough, cough) and designers in the mistaken belief that to keep gamer's money out of their pockets requires investing ninja essence and wolverine spare parts into a campaign world. Still it's not all doom and gloom, Eberron is shaping up quite nicely, sound design philosophy and engaging background material, can't be bad.
::blinks::
You're condeming "ninja essence" but saying that the "warforged" are a-ok?
Cool, glad your not trolling and have a balanced view of things.
Hey, whatever floats your boat. Overgod is a bit much IMO, but I guess He maybe almost sorta could be considered above Divinity when in the Hells. Maybe;)
See, I personally LOVE this theory (Big A > Gods when in Hell), I think mainly because I like my Outsiders to be more powerful than typically portrayed.
However, it doesn't jive with canon AFAIK.
So I'm still working out my "homebrew" theory on the relation between the Realms and the Multiverse. Eltab is proving to be that stick in the spoke though :/
Why can't he be flippant about it? People are flippant on this board all the time. But you have to be solemn and respectful when writing about Elminster?
The "flippancy" I generally see on these boards is either;
By trollers who don't back up statements
or
By people like the Simbul, who have stated their cases, cited the references and then been told "I have a different opinion :p" so they (the people like the Simbul) then make a flippant responce since well thought out arguments did nothing.
No one can argue the fact that E and the other chosen do not have to be in any books you read or in any campaign you play. But that doesn't mean they are good NPC's.
And a few peoples opinions do not make them bad NPCs. (Just a note, an apostrophe then s shows ownership, an s without the apostrophe means plural, took me forever to get that down)
When I hear "Seven Sisters" I think of Dragonball Z characters in drag. Though they act like Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears when they are not fighting.
Source? Page number? You got anything to back up this statement?
Someone said some good things about Eberron. Maybe he's right, and it is designed well. But I'm already bored with it. I've quite reading the novels, and haven't picked up a sourcebook since 5 nations. Also I've looked up the definition of noir, and while there are several, I don't see much noir in it. Another typical d&d setting, except they have trains and warforged.
So your bored with typical d&d settings?
Anyhow, since this isn't the Eberron board I won't get into the whole "noir" bit.
See, I personally LOVE this theory (Big A > Gods when in Hell), I think mainly because I like my Outsiders to be more powerful than typically portrayed.
Hey, if you go to the plane they are actually part of expect a whooping. Land war in Russia anyone?:D
However, it doesn't jive with canon AFAIK.
True true.
So I'm still working out my "homebrew" theory on the relation between the Realms and the Multiverse. Eltab is proving to be that stick in the spoke though :/
Eltab is just so much fun. I wonder how many primes fell when some vile outsider was bound to them by wellmeaning(to themselves) mortals.
Hey, if you go to the plane they are actually part of expect a whooping. Land war in Russia anyone?:D
QFT
Eltab is just so much fun. I wonder how many primes fell when some vile outsider was bound to them by wellmeaning(to themselves) mortals.
See, that's pretty much the basis of my personal theory that I'm developing. It's a sort of Gods vs Outsiders, where the Gods like the Prime firmly in the Prime and the Outsiders would love to drawn that Prime into their plane. It's certainly more complex than that (what with there being Gods vs Gods, Outsiders vs Outsiders, Gods using Outsiders as minions, etc) but that's the very base of it. Right now I'm trying to get my research on the planes done so that I can work it in "smoothly" so to speak
I have to say that Eltab is quite a bit of fun, even if he throws a wrench in my theory, and I'm actually going to use his cult . . . at some point in the game I'm running, if my PCs pick up the plot that they're mainly involved in. Or if they just happen to stay in town long enough
The "flippancy" I generally see on these boards is either;
By trollers who don't back up statements
or
By people like the Simbul, who have stated their cases, cited the references and then been told "I have a different opinion :p" so they (the people like the Simbul) then make a flippant responce since well thought out arguments did nothing.
The problem is they do back it up. They do state their cases. They refer to novels and campaign material. Then you and others claim they don't, or they can't possibly understand anything unless they have read and meditated deeply upon ever FR product ever.
After this, you construct strawmen and tear them down. And you are very wordy when you do it, with an incredible fog factor.
And a few peoples opinions do not make them bad NPCs. (Just a note, an apostrophe then s shows ownership, an s without the apostrophe means plural, took me forever to get that down)
It's more than a few. Definitely more than a few. And what makes them good NPCs? (Thank you) A few people's opinions?
(By the way you might want to check out how you spell some words. Just saying, took me forever to get that spellin' down, of course neither of us has brain farts or typos, right?)
Source? Page number? You got anything to back up this statement?
Any appearance or mention of any of the chosen in any novel or any game material.
So your bored with typical d&d settings?
Anyhow, since this isn't the Eberron board I won't get into the whole "noir" bit.
I don't think you can. If you do, post it on the Eberron board and I'll be glad to read it. Explain over there why Eberron is noir. And define it first by the way. And yeah, I think I am bored with typical d&d settings. I kind of like the Wilderlands right now, and I'd like to play Blue Rose, though no one I know seems to want to play Blue Rose.
This is a waste of time. Your opinion isn't going to change. Nor is mine, or anyone who hates the chosen.
I drop out. You win.
I drop out. You win.
I'm not trying to win, I don't see this as a competition.
The problem is they do back it up. They do state their cases. They refer to novels and campaign material. Then you and others claim they don't, or they can't possibly understand anything unless they have read and meditated deeply upon ever FR product ever.
This isn't something that I've seen. I've mostly seen "I don't like this, lalala". If you wanted to provide a concrete example then I would gladly take a look.
It's more than a few. Definitely more than a few. And what makes them good NPCs? (Thank you) A few people's opinions?
When it comes to good and bad it's almost always a matter of opinion.
(By the way you might want to check out how you spell some words. Just saying, took me forever to get that spellin' down, of course neither of us has brain farts or typos, right?)
Thanks, I'm pretty awful when it comes to spelling and grammar, I do my best to be correct in my use of grammar and try to check the spelling, unfortunately I don't always do a great job. And yes, everyone has brain farts and typos.
Any appearance or mention of any of the chosen in any novel or any game material.
Then we disagree. Simple enough.
I don't think you can. If you do, post it on the Eberron board and I'll be glad to read it. Explain over there why Eberron is noir. And define it first by the way. And yeah, I think I am bored with typical d&d settings. I kind of like the Wilderlands right now, and I'd like to play Blue Rose, though no one I know seems to want to play Blue Rose.
On Eberron, I do not know enough, nor do I care to learn enough at this time, to make such an argument. I'm not claiming that Eberron is noir, nor am I claiming it is not noir, I'm just saying that you've provided no reason other than an opinion. Could be that you are absolutely correct.
This is a waste of time. Your opinion isn't going to change. Nor is mine, or anyone who hates the chosen.
Actually, the more I learn of reasoning behind certain aspects of the Realms the more my opinions about aspects of the realms DO change. However, unfounded statements of opinion usually doesn't do the trick.
After this, you construct strawmen and tear them down. And you are very wordy when you do it, with an incredible fog factor.
I appreciate fog factor. Some folk spend quite awhile drafting their posts so that the wording is concise and well stated. The strawmen statement is incredibly accurate.
Any appearance or mention of any of the chosen in any novel or any game material.
Ok, nobody made a strawman out of this. You paid the Ad rights on this. Could you get just a tad more specific?
It's more than a few. Definitely more than a few. And what makes them good NPCs? (Thank you) A few people's opinions?
Since the classification of being a good NPC is an opinion issue alone, remember opinions look better with some backing besides "it's my opinion, I have a right." Opinions are taken more seriously when backed by reasons related to the facts. Beware the opinion pyramid. It's rarely squarely built. Foggy enough for ya?
This is a waste of time. Your opinion isn't going to change. Nor is mine, or anyone who hates the chosen.
I drop out. You win.
Today 10:13 AM
See, this is it. Please don't leave kaor.
Come on. Your well spoken and obviously interested. The more minds in the mix the better the recipe. Sometimes you just have to insinuate yourself in.:angelhideHow was he "pwned"? And why do you assume that is was just straight up Mystra "pwning" him? (Big A, while being the big guy in hell, has enemies ALL OVER HELL, if he threw down with a major power he'd be exposing his back to Mephistopheles, just to name one)
Further, why do you think that things didn't go down EXACTLY HOW BIG A wanted? How many times has the Big A "played hurt" to advance his own causes?
I'm counting on my fingers now let's see that's...ah...never. It has used trickery on occasions to appear less than what it is but exposing its back to Mephistopheles isn't a concern as it proved its supremacy over the combined might of traitor arch devils during the Dies Irae conflict. This is THE OVERLORD of HELL we're talking about.
Mystra's a deity of ONE crystal sphere, Asmodeus is the embodiment of the lawful evil alignment across the DnD multiverse. By rights Halaster's madness shouldn't have touched it, unless of course as you mentioned Mystra played right into its hands, perhaps there was something in Halaster's madness Asmodeus wanted something relating to Undermountain or some insight in the mad wizard's mind.
Mystra's a deity of ONE crystal sphere, Asmodeus is the embodiment of the lawful evil alignment across the DnD multiverse. By rights Halaster's madness shouldn't have touched it, unless of course as you mentioned Mystra played right into its hands, perhaps there was something in Halaster's madness Asmodeus wanted something relating to Undermountain or some insight in the mad wizard's mind.
First things first, the book was writen with the current cosmological model. I'll take another look at the cosmology to make sure I'm thinking about it accurately before commenting on "Asmodeus is the embodiment of LE across the DnD multiverse".
However, I do not see it being unlikely that Asmodeus would want some divine inspired madness. I feel that he could isolate that madness and it may very well provide a direct link to Shar. That's nothin to sneeze at.
As for the Dies Irae conflict, I don't remember seeing it detailed by TSR or WotC, if you could provide a source from canon that'd be cool. The only detailed account of the Dies Irae I've read comes from Dicefreaks and that doesn't have a thing to do with FR.
In the five years I've been posting here, I've noticed that The Simbul tends to close the book on most arguments, especially concerning Ed Greenwood's characters. I have not seen one rebuttal on this thread that even comes close to shattering the iron-clad posts The Simbul has provided. Whether it's the events of El in Hell, the behavior of the Chosen, the availabilty of Elminster to right wrongs and such, The Simbul has provided information that is worth paying attention to rather than stubbornly resist. People, do yourselves a favor and USE her knowledge to better your games and your understanding of FR.
But I must say, I sooooo enjoy seeing people desperately cling to ignorance. It makes my tummy warm. :P
However, I do not see it being unlikely that Asmodeus would want some divine inspired madness. I feel that he could isolate that madness and it may very well provide a direct link to Shar. That's nothin to sneeze at.
Further, the big A has enemies that he IS concerned about, be they Lords of Hell, Demon Lords, Celestial Forces or whatever. It wouldn't really pay to let them know that you could just shrug off a greater goddess, it would pay to try and con them into thinking that said greater goddess wounded you with something.
It's almost never as simple as one on one when you get into the greater cosmos, heck, it's almost never as simple as one on one when your in the Realms.
Also, I only have the FRCS here and it didn't give an indication one way or another if FR's Big A is physically the same as Big A from Greyhawk (as in the same being, same body, ect) or if they are a sort of "mirror" of each other.
I'd say something at this point, but looks like Shadez and Bren took care of anything I might constructively add... nicely done gents.
Thanks
Slow day at work and all ;)
You want some
while we await responces?I learned to be hear all the time from the Karsii ;)
According to the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the population of Faerûn consists 68,000,000 inhabitants. Therefore, in an average Forgotten Realms campaign consisting of four players, there are a minimum number of 67,999,996 corresponding NPCs. According to the Dungeon Master's Guide, 50% of all randomly generated NPCs will be of a chaotic evil, neutral evil, or lawful evil alignment. That in turn means that on average there are 33,999,998 potential NPC villains for a good or neutral oriented party to slay, thwart, or capture; or alternatively for the PCs to be slain, be thwarted, or be captured by.
Here's what it boils down to of that 33,999998 in actuality (and note: IMVO) lenient conservatism grounded in verisimilitude would suggest only 1%-3% capable of presenting (or caring to present for that matter) a significant threat for the P.C's / Forces of Good / James Bond aficionados to hero pie on. Which tops gives us a figure exceeding one million. The other 97%? Random encounters with monsters / primitive but organized savage tribes (Orcs, etc) harbouring no ultimate consequence to the safety of the Realms OR civilized inhabitants with selfish desires looking out for their own interests and getting by day to day with no interest in aggravating 'itchy palmed adventurers'. Any red flags being raised yet? It stands to reason with concentrated effort the Chosen of Mystra are entirely competent in toppling all organized threats originating on Faerun in terms of years!!!
It reeks of trolls in here. Reeks. Some repeat offenders, too. Haven't you people learned?
In the five years I've been posting here, I've noticed that The Simbul tends to close the book on most arguments, especially concerning Ed Greenwood's characters. I have not seen one rebuttal on this thread that even comes close to shattering the iron-clad posts The Simbul has provided. Whether it's the events of El in Hell, the behavior of the Chosen, the availabilty of Elminster to right wrongs and such, The Simbul has provided information that is worth paying attention to rather than stubbornly resist. People, do yourselves a favor and USE her knowledge to better your games and your understanding of FR.
But I must say, I sooooo enjoy seeing people desperately cling to ignorance. It makes my tummy warm.
If we're unlucky someone picky about it could point out something along the lines of "because a large part of the argument (demographics, etc) aren't Realms specific, they aren't valid within the Realms".
That'd be typical of our luck. There's plenty of people on these boards that do that....
Edit: I prolly shouldn't have mentioned that....
If we're unlucky someone picky about it could point out something along the lines of "because a large part of the argument (demographics, etc) aren't Realms specific, they aren't valid within the Realms".
That'd be typical of our luck. There's plenty of people on these boards that do that....
Edit: I prolly shouldn't have mentioned that....
So in other words what you're suggesting is these 'iron clad' explanations endorsed by the sycophantic adorers are in fact not as iron clad as first appearances would seem and in turn anyone daring the audacity to present counter claims to the contrary are pinned as 'trolls' and disruptive to the mutual back slapping circle fan wank of the elite by the rabid attack dogs. Well if that is the case I take a gracious bow and leave this discussion. Good day.
Best Regards,
The King in Yellow.
So in other words what you're suggesting is these 'iron clad' explanations endorsed by the sycophantic adorers are in fact not as iron clad as first appearances would seem and in turn anyone daring the audacity to present counter claims to the contrary are pinned as 'trolls' and disruptive to the mutual back slapping circle fan wank of the elite by the rabid attack dogs. Well if that is the case I take a gracious bow and leave this discussion. Good day.
Best Regards,
The King in Yellow.
Toodles, troll.
Here's what it boils down to...Any red flags being raised yet?
If you care to restate what you said above the quoted part then I will try and respond. As writen I have no idea what you are trying to say other than you came up with a figure of 1 million for the amount of people who can threaten the PCs or James Bond.
It stands to reason with concentrated effort the Chosen of Mystra are entirely competent in toppling all organized threats originating on Faerun in terms of years!!!
If the Chosen decided to take out the Zhents then they would have a horribly difficult time. The Zhents are spread out, have multiple strongholds and are an economic powerhouse.
But let's say, for the sake of argument, that there was a "Grand Council" and the Chosen had the opportunity to take out the highest members of the Zhents.
They could probably do it (baring divine intervention, Bane, for one, would throw a fit, but we'll not speak about divine intervention in this specific example) but in doing so they would expend a GREAT amount of power and leave themselves open for attack by any number of powerful groups.
I have not seen one rebuttal on this thread that even comes close to shattering the iron-clad posts The Simbul has provided.
Thats only because The Simbul says what people want to hear and so every reasonable rebuttal gets ignored.
She is correct that when the Chosen are a problem in the campaign you are in (because they are overused) the problem is the DM and that the chosen alone can't solve all problems of fearun (only the important ones). But did you notice that in the original post it wasn't only about the chosen but also about other powerful NPC groups. And when you include them then they can do what the chosen can't do alone. Solving the problems of faerun. They won't go into a cellar to kill rats but it is unbelievable that any serious problem (the kind of problems which makes a good high level adventure) will not be noticed by one of such groups.
And as faerun NPCs tend to be very strong it is likewise unbelievable that those NPCs will need the PCs to solve this problem. The standard rebuttal to this is either
1. The high level NPC have something else to do
That is rather ridiculous because it requires that there are many more serious plots going on to keep all the NPCs occupied. At high level that has to mean that fearun got destroyed several times unless the good guys have a 100% success rate. It would also mean that there are more "superthreats" to fearun than in a average marvel comic story line. El in Hell is probably one of the better known "How can I occupy some chosen to make my storyline work" examples.
2. The NPCs have to ward off the bad guys so that the PCs can do their job. The problem with that is that there are more good guys in the realm than bad guys (counted according a huge fearun NPC database. I don't have the address for it but GothicDan probably knows it). The other point is that if it is a serious threat, the more powerful NPCs would do the important work and the PCs would be used as decoy. You can of course say that the bad guys are expecting this and that letting the PCs doing the important stuff is a surprise for them. That is a valid point but it depends on the group itself. Most PCs are wandering adventurers and as such not really trustworthy so its unlikely that they will be chosen to stop the bad guys. The other point is that at higher level deception is very easy to do except at close range with true seeing. So there is no point for the good guys to hold back.
3. The known powerful NPCs in the realms have entrenched themselves and each wait for an opponent to make a mistake. Also a possibility but then were do the high level plots come from? Unless the BBEGs get cloned or otherwise simply appear they would also be part of this cold war and the good NPCs would already have plans for the case when the BBEG starts to act.
For some (probably most) people those points are enough to justify their adventures. After all it is just a game to have fun with. But some people might run a more political game or just want a very coherent gaming world. Then such things matter and the points posted above can become not enough.
Did you notice that so far I only talked about high level games? That doesn't mean that lower levels are free of such problems, quite the opposite.
At lower levels the number of NPCs increases exceptionally. Considering that adventurer is a officially recognized occupation in the realms and there are inns who advertise with near dungeons that shouldn't surprise anyone. Sure, the number of adventurers is still pretty small compared to the total population of the realms, but you have to compare it to the number of adventure hooks. To keep the adventurers occupied it would need a relatively high number of adventure possibilities and at least I can't imagine where all those hooks come from especially when you consider that adventurers are comparable to battle hardened mercenaries and among the most powerful people in the realms (even at low level). You would need a "Marvel world (see point 1)". Where does that leave the PCs? With so many other adventurer NPCs out there the question arises why do the PCs get the job? Someone asked why would a lvl 5 party do a the job of a 1st level party? They wouldn't. But the 2nd or even 3rd level party would. Easy work for good money. Also most adventure jobs are not, like in video games, rated according their difficulty. Cleaning out a mine can range from 1st level kobold bashing to 8th level Umber Hulk hunt.
So whats the solution to this? The most often used solution is ignoring it (I also use this solution for FR games). Unless the players are too inquisitive this solution works very well and most players won't ask why there was no competition for the hook. Playing out this competition is another way, but as the PCs should be the stars they are just for flavor.
So why did I type all this when in the end it does not matter? Because imo it is wrong to argue that there are no problems with the powerful NPCs in the realms and attacking the people who think/say that they are. Why not accept that there are problems (after all the realms are still a man made fictional world and not even made with D&D in mind) and then continue to play like you did before?
So in other words what you're suggesting is these 'iron clad' explanations...
Best Regards,
The King in Yellow.
Took out the insults.
What he is saying is that some people do not believe that the rules in the DMG are Realms specific and should not apply to the Realms.
AFAIK WotC hasn't said that the Realms has a distinct demographics, thus we only have the DMG to go by for a population breakdown.
Simbul is stating a case, using the rules that are sactioned by the maker of the game we play. Thus, it is an iron clad argument until WotC tells us different.
Everything else is just opinion.
As far as I see there has been ONE person who's called you a troll.
As to the whole demographics issue, Shadez is right, they're the only basis we have to go on, and despite not being 'Realms specific', they are the best template we have on the matter at the moment, and by the rules, the most correct. If you don't like them, use a different template for your games, but as far as official stats go, it's the most correct system to use for calculations.
Thats only because The Simbul says what people want to hear and so every reasonable rebuttal gets ignored.
I really haven't seen a "reasonable" rebuttal ignored. I've seen opinions that aren't backed up by facts ignored but more often I've seen reasonable answers to a lot of these issues ignored.
She is correct that when the Chosen are a problem in the campaign you are in (because they are overused) the problem is the DM and that the chosen alone can't solve all problems of fearun (only the important ones). But did you notice that in the original post it wasn't only about the chosen but also about other powerful NPC groups.
Who all have their own interests and goals. Give some concrete examples. Name a section of FR that you feel really has this problem. Saying "the Realms is broken because of the NPCs" doesn't prove a point, it's just making a statement without really backing it up. Give us a specific area where you feel this is a major problem and we'll discuss it. At the very least I will.
And when you include them then they can do what the chosen can't do alone. Solving the problems of faerun.
And, just as likely, cause them. (There is a VAST history of people doing things they thought were good that created some of the worst disasters in the Realms. Two examples, Karsus for one, the elven destruction of . . . oh. . . the stupid Ancient Realm from the Vilhon region, starts with a J, psionics n stuff :p)
They won't go into a cellar to kill rats but it is unbelievable that any serious problem (the kind of problems which makes a good high level adventure) will not be noticed by one of such groups.
And they will likely be involved in something at the time, unless they are an adventurer. They might be able to run off in a couple of days but just right now they need to live their life. If it's Realms threatening then sure, run right off and hope you didn't leave a candle burning near the drapes. Otherwise you don't just run off to save the day.
Further, many of the high level NPCs DON'T want to leave their homes and get down and dirty. If someone brings a fight to them/their city/their family then yeah, they'll throw down, but if some village that's 200 miles away is whiped out by orcs then. . . well, whatever, life is hard.
And as faerun NPCs tend to be very strong it is likewise unbelievable that those NPCs will need the PCs to solve this problem.
But they sure do want them to.
1. The high level NPC have something else to do
That is rather ridiculous because it requires that there are many more serious plots going on to keep all the NPCs occupied. At high level that has to mean that fearun got destroyed several times unless the good guys have a 100% success rate. It would also mean that there are more "superthreats" to fearun than in a average marvel comic story line. El in Hell is probably one of the better known "How can I occupy some chosen to make my storyline work" examples.
Nope, it might just require that the Archwizard just met a new lady and boy is he into her. It might be that they're almost done researching that new spell Create Wine and are now tweaking it to get the real, full bodied flavor. They might have to watch the kids while the Brother and Sister-in-law get out of town for a couple days.
2. The NPCs have to ward off the bad guys so that the PCs can do their job. The problem with that is that there are more good guys in the realm than bad guys (counted according a huge fearun NPC database. I don't have the address for it but GothicDan probably knows it).
There are more good aligned, named and published NPC's in the Realms. How many mid-level Red Wizards have been named? How many mid-level Zhents? We don't get all that many when compared to the amount out there.
The other point is that if it is a serious threat, the more powerful NPCs would do the important work and the PCs would be used as decoy. You can of course say that the bad guys are expecting this and that letting the PCs doing the important stuff is a surprise for them. That is a valid point but it depends on the group itself. Most PCs are wandering adventurers and as such not really trustworthy so its unlikely that they will be chosen to stop the bad guys.
Chosen by who? In my games (played and run) it was rare that we had a "patron" (except for a memorable run where the patron was a Rakshasa in disguise) it was more of a
DM: "Well, you're in Waterdeep, what're you up too"
Me: "I look for evil!" (I like playing paladins :p)
As a DM I use the "hire PCs for X" to get the group going. Then it's up to them. If you would like I can explain to you why the PCs will be the likely ones to uncover a Gnoll plot to summon one of Yeenoghu's bodyguard.
3. The known powerful NPCs in the realms have entrenched themselves and each wait for an opponent to make a mistake. Also a possibility but then were do the high level plots come from? Unless the BBEGs get cloned or otherwise simply appear they would also be part of this cold war and the good NPCs would already have plans for the case when the BBEG starts to act.
Yep, the cold war is a great analogy. There are litterally hundreds (more likely to be thousands) plays for power throughout Faerun. People don't want to tip their hand too early so they probe, sending teams who are disposable out to "feel out" a situation. For every high level spell battle there are probably at least 10 skirmishes between minions. At least.
For some (probably most) people those points are enough to justify their adventures. After all it is just a game to have fun with. But some people might run a more political game or just want a very coherent gaming world. Then such things matter and the points posted above can become not enough.
The reason I play FR is because I want a political game. I was my gaming world to exist independant of my PCs. It is INSANELY difficult to build a world developed enough to support a really political game (unless you play small, I'm a big believer in playing small though, I just like to have a whole world that's semi-detailed because I have a job and such)
Did you notice that so far I only talked about high level games? That doesn't mean that lower levels are free of such problems, quite the opposite.
At lower levels the number of NPCs increases exceptionally. Considering that adventurer is a officially recognized occupation in the realms and there are inns who advertise with near dungeons that shouldn't surprise anyone. Sure, the number of adventurers is still pretty small compared to the total population of the realms, but you have to compare it to the number of adventure hooks.
If you add in "exploration" and "taming the wilderness" then the number of adventure hooks looks amazingly huge to me.
To keep the adventurers occupied it would need a relatively high number of adventure possibilities and at least I can't imagine where all those hooks come from especially when you consider that adventurers are comparable to battle hardened mercenaries and among the most powerful people in the realms (even at low level).
Again, exploration and taming the wilderness. Clearing out dungeons and ruins too. Also guarding caravans, patrolling dangerous regions, aquiring certain items for sale to individuals, scouting out areas that people may feel contain some sort of danger.
You would need a "Marvel world (see point 1)". Where does that leave the PCs? With so many other adventurer NPCs out there the question arises why do the PCs get the job? Someone asked why would a lvl 5 party do a the job of a 1st level party? They wouldn't. But the 2nd or even 3rd level party would. Easy work for good money. Also most adventure jobs are not, like in video games, rated according their difficulty. Cleaning out a mine can range from 1st level kobold bashing to 8th level Umber Hulk hunt.
Which is EXACTLY where the lack of adventurers comes from. In the D&D game adventurers tend to live long lives, in FR they tend to have short, violent, lives. For every 10th level NPC there are dozens, if not hundreds, who dies from 1st through 9th.
So whats the solution to this? The most often used solution is ignoring it (I also use this solution for FR games). Unless the players are too inquisitive this solution works very well and most players won't ask why there was no competition for the hook. Playing out this competition is another way, but as the PCs should be the stars they are just for flavor.
One of the most rewarding games can be a "competition" with another group of adventurers. The possibilities are just about endless, from them stealing a few jobs from the PCs, cutting into their "bread and butter" and taking the spot light. It's best to use an evil party but a good party offers a lot of rich experience too, especially if you use paladins and clerics and you make them haughty. Oh, it's GREAT to throw a haughty paladin at a good group and watch them blanch like no dragon could ever make them. You can even have them stay at the same inn and do TERRIBLY annoying religious things (condem the dice game, make the bard stop performing lewd songs, frown on any heavy drinkers). I suggest trying it sometime, it's good fun.
So why did I type all this when in the end it does not matter?
Because the Realms matter to you, they matter to all the people who post around here.
Because imo it is wrong to argue that there are no problems with the powerful NPCs in the realms and attacking the people who think/say that they are. Why not accept that there are problems (after all the realms are still a man made fictional world and not even made with D&D in mind) and then continue to play like you did before?
Or it could be that
I've seen a few people "attack first, ask questions later" but they seem to me to be in the minority. Unless you feel that I'm part of that crowd, then I would certainly understand how you see more "attackers" than I do.
The one thing ... in the first place...
Weren't you going to sleep? :p
As to the whole demographics issue, Shadez is right, they're the only basis we have to go on, and despite not being 'Realms specific', they are the best template we have on the matter at the moment, and by the rules, the most correct. If you don't like them, use a different template for your games, but as far as official stats go, it's the most correct system to use for calculations.
Wooooooo! I'm right!
KtM n LK, that's gotta be worth a level guys ;)
One more thing.
You really can, as a DM, feel from to knock 10 levels off every NPC in the books.
:: Poof::
A Realms more to your liking.
And I might just do that in the game I run, but I really doubt it's nessicary as I'm not going to be using much in the way of Realms NPCs (unless the PCs decide they want to go meet some).
I think I'm coming to something of an epiphany reading over your post there though... there seems to be this concept that all the good guys are some monolithic entity that is immediately aware of any trouble out there, and that it can move swiftly and efficiently to stomp anything evil into the ground, acting in a unified front that should be scattering anything malevolent in its mighty wake as it strides the land. Which says to me that those who hold that point of view are seriously in need of reading The Concerns of the Mighty at least once more... agreeing on an agenda and priority would be the first step to that monolithic creature of light forming, and that's not even contemplating the matter of cooperation and coordination yet. With modern communications the 'goodly' nations of the world today can't manage that one little trick more often than not, and they're supposed to be managing that with ease on Faerun? Right...
I did sleep for a bit, I just happened to wake up again. :P
Jhamdaath, or something like that, is the realm you're thinking of Shadez.
Jhaamdath, to be exact
DB
Jhamdaath, or something like that, is the realm you're thinking of Shadez.
I think I'm coming to something of an epiphany reading over your post there though... ...
I did sleep for a bit, I just happened to wake up again. :P
That's the one!
And I sorta came to one while writing it. The NPCs aren't adventurers, they're people. The PCs we run in a D&D adventure are unrealistic even by standards of fantasy. My PCs, and I tell you I run a tight ship, traveled by ship to Alaghon, picked up some horses and wagon and got out of the city before the evening. They travelled a week to get to Starhold (my made up "base region"), fighting a hydra on the way (I just threw something at them to get them rolling dice, they're rusty and there's 7 of them). They get to Starhold, spend the night and head off for the woods, two days of travel and a major fight and we're at "right now"
That's at least a week at sea, probably more (haven't done the research but I can't imagine it being less that a week). A week of solid travel and a pretty decent fight. One night in a bed. More travel and what not.
Looking at it I'm thinking about handing out "fatigued" modifiers if they don't take a week off or something.
But that's my point. All PCs generally do is adventure. Almost no one does that. No one who didn't have a DM that didn't want to kill his PCs would survive that pace.
With so many other adventurer NPCs out there the question arises why do the PCs get the job? Someone asked why would a lvl 5 party do a the job of a 1st level party? They wouldn't. But the 2nd or even 3rd level party would. Easy work for good money. Also most adventure jobs are not, like in video games, rated according their difficulty. Cleaning out a mine can range from 1st level kobold bashing to 8th level Umber Hulk hunt.
This is more a problem of D&D, any game system that attempts some semblance of balance really. It even applies to Eberron, a 2nd or 3rd level NPC Warrior can easily take on the same challenges as a 1st level PC Fighter. There are also more than enough 1st level Fighters around to give your 1st level Fighter PC a run for his money. Due to the variations in CR encounters on any quest/task, not everyone makes it out alive or with the will to continue as an "adventurer." Whatever the factors, it seems there are enough people entering and leaving this profession to keep some sort of equilibrium.
For the specific dilemma with the Chosen, they have CR from about the mid 30s to nearly 40, almost twice what a normal 1-20 game goes into. Even if far fewer than 1% of the evil population is a capable match for them, that's more than enough to keep them occupied provided you accept that evil forces have as much resources, experience and raw talent as they do. You don't need a Marvel comics event to keep them tied up all the time. Just trying to predict and figure out the next big event is enough to keep them busy.
Besides, you have the Marvel thing all wrong. Some of the most respected characters in the Marvel-verse are vastly less powerful than many of the heavy-weights. Meanwhile, there are rather mundane characters in terms of upbringing, training and innate skill who wield great power, even cosmic level ability. I actually think FR could take a few notes from superhero comics in terms of how to handle a shared persistent world.
Why not accept that there are problems (after all the realms are still a man made fictional world and not even made with D&D in mind) and then continue to play like you did before?
Sure there are problems just like in any other man-made creation, but the bigger problem is that some people make mountains out of mole hills. The Chosen problem is not really as significant a problem as detractors make it out to be, as shown by the Simbul's demographics figures. Admitting the problem fully, without demonstrating a more balanced view, just allows the whole thing to explodes as the detractors feel like all their years of deriding the Chosen has finally paid off, when in fact they had an argument with an unstable foundation the whole time (not that they don't have an argument at all, some of their points are valid). Why any of the Chosen need a CR more than 30 is beyond me (or a set level for that matter).
Edit: Reading through recent answers from Candlekeep, here is what Ed had to say about Asmodeus, Hell, and Elminster being there. You can read the whole reply on the Candlekeep forums: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8518&whichpage=23
Except on Asmodeus:
"Asmodeus, who is the supreme administrator / bureaucrat / political dirty-fighter / super-Machiavelli, who has so many contingency plans and preparations up his sleeve that even many archdevils combining against him are doomed to fail [at least, thus far])."
Excerpt on El in Hell:
"By the way, THO relayed to me some recent discussion about Mystra “making Asmodeus insane” during ELMINSTER IN HELL. Just to clarify: that’s NOT the case. Rather, she managed to cast a powerful magic that acted as a momentary confusion spell, and a long-lasting forget spell, on Asmodeus."
Recall, Ed was one of the earlier designers/writers who gave D&D's version of Hell many of its details and flavor. While some of the details have changed, I don't think the flavor shifted all that much.
First of all, I say thank you to the Simbul. I've never seen you make a post that was not well thought out and informative. This is not to say I've never disagreed with you, but it hasn't happened often.
I've been playing the Realms since around '98, or a little before if you count reading books and playing the old computer games. I've been a big Realms fan the whole way through, and Ill never forget when I picked up one of the first copies of that beautiful white FRCS rulebook for third edition. I will state here that 90% of the time I'm the DM around here, unfortunatley (I want to play!).
Somewhere along the road however, I lost my way. Somewhere in the endless novels and supplements, something snapped, and I began to resent the Realms. I started toying with other settings, but nothing ever satisfied me like the Realms once did. There was even a time I began to resent the Chosen, though I never said it openly. What got to me was pretty much a couple of bad players and the endless flamers on these boards. Hitler once said "tell a lie long enough and loud enough, and people will believe it", many flamers and trolls prove this true. As for the bad players, I had one guy utterly obsessed with how "cool" the Chosen were and did everything his little mind could think of to impress them and meet them, forcing alot of Chosen encounters I otherwise would have avoided. The other guy was completley obsessed with killing the Chosen, just because he was a dick.
I see now that its all due to a few coincidental things happening to this setting combined with a form of ignorance. Forgotten Realms is old. Its been around a long time now. Its stories are many, its heroes many. Thus, you've got alot of lore about the Chosen. In 20 years time, I'm sure Eberron will be no different. Another thing that I believe intimidates some folks is that its not one super-character, but a team of them. In truth, the Chosen rarely act well as a team, Khelben and El rarely get along from what I've seen. And there isn't any reason if some of them decide to gang up on the Zhents, for example, that the bad guys would not form a "dream team" of their own (see "Concerns of the Mighty" in the FRCS). Its sort of a Fantasy version of Mutually Assured Descrution. Sure you can kill me, but you will die doing so.
There are probably other reasons, but my allergies are making my head hurt. The fact is that a few misconceptions plus some bad DMs with a dash of some recently controversial novels has convinced some people, mostly newcomers to the Realms, that the Realms is somehow tainted by the actions of a few old adventurers.
The Simbul has helped me get past this distorted view and I thank her. The fact is, if you think a handful of powerful good characters makes a world unplayable, then you'd have to change settings every time you finished a campaign.
I never hear my players say "well, my last character was a 22nd level cleric, he'd probably clean up the planet and all the world's problems by now, so there is no need to make more characters here." That's about as foolish as saying you can "win" D&D. So if your super-heroic character can't clean up Toril, what makes you think the Chosen can?
As far as the Chosen "cleaning up toril" in a matter of years, this is complete nonsense. One of the things that makes Forgotten Realms so intriguing are the spiderwebs of alligences and deals between various organizations and churches. Khelben and Manshoon have even brokered a deal between Waterdeep and the Zhentarium. *gasp* It may very well be that one evil organization might help control another's influence, and the Chosen cannot afford to topple one without empowering another. Its not as simple as "lets go kill the bad guys", there are countries in the real world learning that lesson right now.
Sure every once and awhile you get a Adolf Hitler that the world focuses all of its good against, and you have your Elminsters in that fight (General Eisenhower) but you also need the soldiers and the pilots and the engineers and the scientists and the countless other heroes to get the job done.
You can also look at this from the standpoint that while we have 5 aircraft in the air force that can wipe out entire cities with their weapons, they are not the only things in the military that we fight with, and if they were, we'd be screwed. Hence, even 5 archwizards cannot defend an entire world from evil, even if they can level cities with their power as well.
There are things that don't add up realistically when looking at the Chosen, true, but its a Fantasy setting people, things never quite add up in a fantasy setting.
Again, look at Star Wars novels, in many of them Luke Skywalker takes center stage as the "super-duper" jedi, flying starships with his mind, etc. But there are things that challenge even him, and he cannot take on the entire empire on his own, not by a long-shot.
In my own games, I put a hard limit on character levels at 20. I consider the highest of characters, even the Chosen, to be no greater than 20th level. This puts alot more "realism" in my games.
In the end, its really up to you. And what I really don't get, is why you are attacking the Chosen in the Realms like Apple Pie in America. If you had a complaint about the Chosen, it should have been voiced decades ago when they were thought up. It's a little late in the game to expect any change now. So you've got two choices, deal with the Chosen, or go play something else.
I will also like to point out I think one of the greatest mistakes in the history of this game was to give hard statistics to the Iconic NPCs. Telling us just what level of what class Elminster, Drizzt or any of these guys were was a big mistake.
Could scarcely agree with that one more...
Of course I like that the iconic's are defined, because I only use them with a light hand, versus the concrete barrier breaking they exhibit in novel's.
Besides, you have the Marvel thing all wrong. Some of the most respected characters in the Marvel-verse are vastly less powerful than many of the heavy-weights. Meanwhile, there are rather mundane characters in terms of upbringing, training and innate skill who wield great power, even cosmic level ability. I actually think FR could take a few notes from superhero comics in terms of how to handle a shared persistent world.
The Marvel analogy was not meant to show something about ht epower level of the realms, but about the frequency world destroying superplots come up (Maybe Marvel was a bad example and I should have said DC comics. I'm not a big comic reader so I have no idea which fits better).
In those comics you have a supervillian plotting to destory and/or dominating a world almost on a weekly basis. That might fit for comics but for a world which I want to take a bit more seriously such a frequency is imo over the top. Yet to keep all the NPCs in the realms busy so that the NPCs can have their spotlight time such a frequency of plot hooks (not neccessary world destroying ones so that the lower level npcs also have something to do) is needed.
1. The high level NPC have something else to do
That is rather ridiculous because it requires that there are many more serious plots going on to keep all the NPCs occupied.
I still have no idea why you find the (well attested, not theoretical) density of the Realms ridiculous.
At high level that has to mean that fearun got destroyed several times unless the good guys have a 100% success rate.
No, because the Realms almost never deals in threats to all of Faerûn.
The problem with that is that there are more good guys in the realm than bad guys (counted according a huge fearun NPC database. I don't have the address for it but GothicDan probably knows it).
You can't infer average alignment from the list of named NPCs any more than you can average level or gender (which would be 2/3 male). This is a complete red herring.
The other point is that if it is a serious threat, the more powerful NPCs would do the important work and the PCs would be used as decoy.
Sometimes, when there's enough knowledge, cooperation, and availability.
. . . at higher level deception is very easy to do except at close range with true seeing. So there is no point for the good guys to hold back.
The risks of direct confrontations -- death, the advantage magical protections give to the defender, complete occupation of attention, vulnerability to other foes -- are far greater than the chesslike manipulations that high-level conflict mostly consists of. True seeing is no ultimate weapon, just one of many tools with counters like every other.
3. The known powerful NPCs in the realms have entrenched themselves and each wait for an opponent to make a mistake. Also a possibility but then were do the high level plots come from?
From when circumstances and knowledge change, people's hands are forced, change their mind, and the world does its own unpredictable thing.
But some people might run a more political game or just want a very coherent gaming world. Then such things matter and the points posted above can become not enough.
There have been many political and coherent Realms campaigns, including Ed's own! As far as I can see, the Realms is only incoherent with how you'd like it to work.
To keep the adventurers occupied it would need a relatively high number of adventure possibilities and at least I can't imagine where all those hooks come from . . .
Why blame the setting for your own lack of imagination?
... it isn't like iconic NPCs are unique to the Realms by any stretch of the imagination afterall ...
The only settings without lots of characters and events are ones that have been deliberately spruced to make space for one single set of protagonists, as in epic fantasy series.
Which is EXACTLY where the lack of adventurers comes from. In the D&D game adventurers tend to live long lives, in FR they tend to have short, violent, lives. For every 10th level NPC there are dozens, if not hundreds, who dies from 1st through 9th.
And indeed, Ed has put at least three scenes of adventuring companies being wiped out in his fiction, to drive this point home.
One of the most rewarding games can be a "competition" with another group of adventurers. The possibilities are just about endless, from them stealing a few jobs from the PCs, cutting into their "bread and butter" and taking the spot light.
Here again, Realmslore is full of NPC adventuring bands -- which are of all alignments -- for such uses, including the Old Grey Box, Ruins of Myth Drannor, etc.
Again, not everyone would do it this way. But the Realms does, coherently and consistently.
I still have no idea why you find the (well attested, not theoretical) density of the Realms ridiculous.
Because it is simply not feasible to have constant occupations of mines, infested ruins, BBEG plotting something, etc. A world where all this happens on a daily basis (and it must if that should occupy all the NPCs who could interfer with the PCs quest) is laughable. How often do you think a normal village/city/country etc. can be threatened in a month before it looks ridiculous?
No, because the Realms almost never deals in threats to all of Faerûn.
Except for RSEs. But to keep the local heroes from doing the PCs job you need a constant flow of local threats and by the law of average the evil guys should also win sometimes. But because there have to be so many threats even with a slim success chance evil by now should have taken over most of the realms.
You can't infer average alignment from the list of named NPCs any more than you can average level or gender (which would be 2/3 male). This is a complete red herring.
If you would know the database I used you would know that it includes alignment (when known), gender and classes (not very usefull as the entries strech over several editions). So please inform yourself before you flame.
Sometimes, when there's enough knowledge, cooperation, and availability.There are enough heroes in the realms that availiability is not a big problem. That leaves knowledge and cooperation. And when your home is threatened then you can be sure that people will cooperate (does not apply to minor jobs like cleaning out a mine). And the knowledge normally comes automatically, as at least the good people will inform the local powers of a threat. Or are your saying that the PCs and other adventurers do not tell anyone from thw BBEG and his plots? And as soon as the threat gets big enough to appear on teh harper radar then you can be sure that the justice league of the realms will know of it and, as they are all good, inform the people in the area.The risks of direct confrontations -- death, the advantage magical protections give to the defender, complete occupation of attention, vulnerability to other foes -- are far greater than the chesslike manipulations that high-level conflict mostly consists of. True seeing is no ultimate weapon, just one of many tools with counters like every other.
When you are high enough to engage in such a magical cold war, death is a minor inconvenience and not the final end. Also in D&D the defender is at the disadvantage as there are no continious protective effects against most forms of attacks unless you use mythals. Thats why the Scry/Teleport tactic is so devestating.From when circumstances and knowledge change, people's hands are forced, change their mind, and the world does its own unpredictable thing.
Yes, the world does, not the PCs do.Why blame the setting for your own lack of imagination?
Are you finished with flaming? Its not that the problem is inventing threats. The problem is that so many threats are needed to keep all the adventurers and high level NPCs occupied that it simply becomes silly.
You said it yourself, teh Realms are full of adventuring bands. Now explain why they and the high level NPCs living in the area the PCs are active in do not solve the problems there and need the PCs for that? Don't forget that adventurers are highly trained and expensive mercenaries which are not called upon lightly.
Are you finished with flaming? Its not that the problem is inventing threats. The problem is that so many threats are needed to keep all the adventurers and high level NPCs occupied that it simply becomes silly.
You said it yourself, teh Realms are full of adventuring bands. Now explain why they and the high level NPCs living in the area the PCs are active in do not solve the problems there and need the PCs for that? Don't forget that adventurers are highly trained and expensive mercenaries which are not called upon lightly.
Ok...so I am confused here. I may have chosen the Realms as my port of call, but I've DM'd everywhere, even Darksun, and I always had to constantly come up with new and dangerous threats for the PCs to tackle. Its how the game works. Like I said before, there are lots of things that don't add up in Fantasy setting, because its not real.
So if you think having contsant struggles between good and evil in the Realms is unrealistic, then you might want to consider doing something else as a hobby. If you think I am wrong here, then may I ask how you would run your "Ideal" fantasy setting to suit your likes and dislikes?
Ok...so I am confused here. I may have chosen the Realms as my port of call, but I've DM'd everywhere, even Darksun, and I always had to constantly come up with new and dangerous threats for the PCs to tackle. Its how the game works. Like I said before, there are lots of things that don't add up in Fantasy setting, because its not real.
You're verging on a self defeating argument because the O.P began by suggesting it being quite plausible and realistic in the way it's handled.
Except for RSEs.
With the arguable exception of the Time of Troubles, not a single RSE has ever been of such a scale that it would destroy Faerûn if it weren't stopped.
But to keep the local heroes from doing the PCs job you need a constant flow of local threats and by the law of average the evil guys should also win sometimes. But because there have to be so many threats even with a slim success chance evil by now should have taken over most of the realms.
You're forgetting that these "local heroes" aren't always reacting to a threat. With adventurers, I'd say thats not even the most common reason for them to be doing anything. Many go to seek fame and fortune. They go tracking down everything from small bands of Orcs, Goblins, or Kobolds to ancient Dragons and their hoards, because they've heard of others who have done so and gotten rich and famous off of it. How many adventurers do you think get routinely devoured by a Dragon they tracked down, ambushed and killed by Gnolls or Orcs while on the road, or stupidly try descending into the Underdark only to find themselves food for its inhabitants? How often do you think some of these heroes obtain their title by dying to slow some evil God's priesthood's scheme which either comes to fruition later or is stopped by another band altogether? How many every year brave the dangers of places like Undermountain, only to find themselves yet another permanent resident of a mass grave (as El once called the Undermountain)?
Theres no need whatsoever for all the adventurers and (would-be) heroes in the Realms in to be facing major (or even minor) threats to various places for them to be kept busy. Theres no need for them to succeed in their endeavors more often than not for Faerûn to remain stable (or rather as stable as it is portrayed). Theres more than enough things out there for them to fight and die against. Theres more than enough evil organizations out there to keep those who don't go out seeking treasure busy (Zhents, Thayans, the Twisted Rune, the Cult of the Dragon, the Fire Knives, the People of the Black Blood, the Shadovar, and of course the churches of hundreds of evil Gods, to name the better-known ones). Theres villains who are as powerful as or more powerful than any of the goodly characters out there to counterbalance them (Ioulaum, Aumvor, Larloch, and Szass Tam to name a few big-name ones, plus probably many who haven't been mentioned in canon lore [Vhostym, for instance, was unknown before Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale Trilogy,
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but was probably the most powerful non-divine being to ever walk Toril
A world where all this happens on a daily basis (and it must if that should occupy all the NPCs who could interfer with the PCs quest) is laughable.
Then the Realms -- and the World of Greyhawk, and most other D&D settings -- is laughable.
How often do you think a normal village/city/country etc. can be threatened in a month before it looks ridiculous?
Countries, and often cities, field many threats at any given time, and I don't think it's ridiculous at all.
Except for RSEs.
As Zevox said.
But because there have to be so many threats even with a slim success chance evil by now should have taken over most of the realms.
No more than good should have. Instead, the Realms is generally stable, with most governments tending to neutrality but with some good and evil rulers, and much monster-haunted wilderness. (Good-hearted folk aren't purely reactive, either.)
If you would know the database I used you would know that it includes alignment (when known), gender and classes (not very usefull as the entries strech over several editions).
I don't understand what this has to do with what I said.
There are enough heroes in the realms that availiability is not a big problem. That leaves knowledge and cooperation. And when your home is threatened then you can be sure that people will cooperate (does not apply to minor jobs like cleaning out a mine). And the knowledge normally comes automatically, as at least the good people will inform the local powers of a threat.
I could cite any number of cases where one or more of these things don't happen -- most of the events described in Prayers from the Faithful, for instance. It just isn't so, according to the sources.
Also in D&D the defender is at the disadvantage as there are no continious protective effects against most forms of attacks unless you use mythals.
Of course there are: Realmslore records many, from magic items, contingencies, wards, mantles, hanging magical fields, and other spells.
Are you finished with flaming?
I just paraphrased your own statement.
Now explain why they and the high level NPCs living in the area the PCs are active in do not solve the problems there and need the PCs for that?
They're doing something else, or they aren't motivated to do the same thing the PCs are. This couldn't be simpler to understand. By your reasoning, in our world there's no need for anyone to provide services, or to do anything, because there's someone else who can do it.
By your reasoning, in our world there's no need for anyone to provide services, or to do anything, because there's someone else who can do it.
My heavens he's right. I was going back to school to become a teacher, but there are already so many teachers in the world I am not going to bother. I mean, to think that there are children, every single day, who need a teacher, is laughable.
The question is: why do we argue with Derren? It's like trying to convince a stump of something.
I wish we had more posts like this one...
We do, but every time I post I get yelled at for being mean...;)
Anyway, good on you, Simbul.
I think you statistics are a little too cookie cutter and the ommission of the fact that player and DM perception of the Chosen (that is, a DM's and Players's idea of what the Chosen are and should be based off of all the novels and game supplements they've read) can easily outstrip what's written in the FRCS leaves your arguments lacking, but basically you're headed in the right direction with this one.
Anything that argues for just getting on with play is OK in my book.
I think you statistics are a little too cookie cutter and the ommission of the fact that player and DM perception of the Chosen (that is, a DM's and Players's idea of what the Chosen are and should be based off of all the novels and game supplements they've read) can easily outstrip what's written in the FRCS leaves your arguments lacking, but basically you're headed in the right direction with this one.
But that's largely the fault of the actual players and the DM, not in the design of the Chosen themselves. I think so, at least.
Otherwise, what Dan said...
It's like trying to convince a stump of something.
You know, the same could be said about you.
Countries, and often cities, field many threats at any given time, and I don't think it's ridiculous at all.
As Zevox said.No more than good should have. Instead, the Realms is generally stable,
And you don't think that this contradicts each other? How can something be stable and yet still have enough plots going on at any given time to keep thousands of adventurers (=high paid mercenaries), many powerfull enough to level whole villages alone, busy?
And you don't think that this contradicts each other? How can something be stable and yet still have enough plots going on at any given time to keep thousands of adventurers (=high paid mercenaries), many powerfull enough to level whole villages alone, busy?
Why did you ignore my posts?
Why is it crazy to assume that an adventurer might not want to go save farmer Bob's plot? What's so insane about them living their lives and not going to dungeon X to get some goodies? What is the problem with including these adventuring bands, heros, greedy weasels, bored nobles, etc in your game?
Could you explain that?
But that's largely the fault of the actual players and the DM, not in the design of the Chosen themselves. I think so, at least.
Hello Dan!
I would disagree with you only inasmuch as I don't believe it to be the fault of DMs or Players for stumbling upon then reading, say, Secrets of the Magister, then finding and reading the book Silverfall, then discovering the FRCS and seeing all the Epic Level stats for the Chosen in it.
The Chosen are the big dogs, even if 3E puts them in the background as rulers, half-mad hell-tortured victims or makes them DOA after Epic Ritual castings. It's natural some (probaly/mostly) younger players will want to take them out.
It's a phase most younger gamers go through and is also, given the ease with which today's younger gamers can access the internet, only natural they should post about it.
IMO of course.
;)
Why did you ignore my posts?
Why is it crazy to assume that an adventurer might not want to go save farmer Bob's plot? What's so insane about them living their lives and not going to dungeon X to get some goodies? What is the problem with including these adventuring bands, heros, greedy weasels, bored nobles, etc in your game?
When they don't want to adventure then they are not adventurers. The reason for good adventurers to help farmer good is, being good. Neutral adventurers will maybe do it for the money. Evil ones are unlikely to help him except for a very big pile of money.
The problem with including all of them is that when you do that then there wouldn't be many jobs for the PCs to do unless every tenth pesant in the realms has the need for mercenaries.
What you could do is to spread out the adventurs so that the PCs only get a job ever third month or so and the time in between is spend on preparation and searching a job.
Society typically finds a use for such people. Just look at middle age Europe, most of the vagrant young knights were shipped off into the grinder of the Crusades. Wandering soldiers and warriors did the same in the warring states periods in China and Japan. Heck, even scholars wandered looking for patronage of nobles and kings.
Countries, and often cities, field many threats at any given time, and I don't think it's ridiculous at all.
No more than good should have. Instead, the Realms is generally stable . . .
And you don't think that this contradicts each other? How can something be stable and yet still have enough plots going on at any given time to keep thousands of adventurers (=high paid mercenaries), many powerfull enough to level whole villages alone, busy?
It's approximately stable, not everywhere always, but in the aggregate -- the forces that exist are in rough balance so upheaval and security, compassion and tyranny, more or less average out over time, with gradual drifts such as the rise of the mercantile middle class.
Adventurers aren't busy adventuring all the time: they spend their loot, wench and carouse, train themselves and others, invest, explore, winter (as the Crazed Venturers did at Heroes' Rest), work as scouts or caravan guards, rest and recover from physical and psychological and magical hurts, research spells, raise children, often retire or semiretire after a certain point, and go about their lives like everyone else.
Few of these plots are to raze a town, summon almighty ancient evils, or usurp kingdoms. We're talking smuggling rings, subversion of merchants, raising monsters to carve out border baronies, raiding wizards' towers to steal Art, and other less melodramatic stuff, much of which isn't much about, and isn't well described by, the good–evil axis.
What you could do is to spread out the adventurs so that the PCs only get a job ever third month or so and the time in between is spend on preparation and searching a job.
Yes. Although, while some adventurers are passive blades-for-hire, most pursue their own aims -- political agendas, self-enrichment, knowledge, protecting settlements from monsters, revenge, etc. -- rather than wait for other people's (Traveller patrons') jobs.
I would disagree with you only inasmuch as I don't believe it to be the fault of DMs or Players for stumbling upon then reading, say, Secrets of the Magister, then finding and reading the book Silverfall, then discovering the FRCS and seeing all the Epic Level stats for the Chosen in it.
Although we can't be sure, this is an internet meme, and my hunch is that these ideas come about through hearsay far more than from honest, independent readings of (fragments of) the sources. You'd also have to be pretty dense to read Secrets of the Magister, with its many examples of how high-level conflicts in the Realms actually work, and still buy into some of the Chosen misapprehensions.
Although we can't be sure, this is an internet meme, and my hunch is that these ideas come about through hearsay far more than from honest, independent readings of (fragments of) the sources. You'd also have to be pretty dense to read Secrets of the Magister, with its many examples of how high-level conflicts in the Realms actually work, and still buy into some of the Chosen misapprehensions.
I think if you could sample gamers who post about "Quashing Elminster because he s0xoRs!" you'd probably get a good number who respond that they had read beforehand about someone else saying Elminster and the Chosen were too powerful, so "it must be true".
OTOH I don't think everyone who reads Secrets of the Magister can grasp it in one reading. But one probably could make the loose connection that despite all the hullaballoo over the centuries, the Chosen remain above it all*.
:D
*This is a gross generalization, but not too unbelievable if you're not into reading the fine details.
1, Yes the Chosen have personal fiefdoms that they try and protect, but these correspons almost completely to four regions: Waterdeep, Silver Marches, Dales, and Aglarond.
2, That probably makes up about 5% or less of the total population of Toril, what about the other 95%.
3, Well they rely on guess who, your PCs.
The way I normally think about this is:
1, Yes the Chosen have personal fiefdoms that they try and protect, but these correspons almost completely to four regions: Waterdeep, Silver Marches, Dales, and Aglarond.
2, That probably makes up about 5% or less of the total population of Toril, what about the other 95%.
3, Well they rely on guess who, your PCs.
Not even that far. In the campaign I'm currently DMing Alustriel asked a group of elves (the players) to investigate some strange dissapearings in a woodcuting camp on the outskirts of the High Forest (it's the only one approved by the elves, and one of the players is a Wood Elf Druid from Reithelaethor). At this moment an old rival (a cousin of Kymil Nimesin) of my main npc (Alediran of House Tir'ent) during magical academy training in the Towers of Moon & Sun was discovered of having ties with the church of Shar, responsible for the dissapearances (sp?) and other things that happened during the campaign. Their objective is to discover a way to disable/destroy the Mythal (the sharrans don't know it's a Mythal, they assume it's some kind of permanent Magic Circle Against Evil) that protects Silverymoon.
The way I normally think about this is:
1, Yes the Chosen have personal fiefdoms that they try and protect, but these correspons almost completely to four regions: Waterdeep, Silver Marches, Dales, and Aglarond.
2, That probably makes up about 5% or less of the total population of Toril, what about the other 95%.
3, Well they rely on guess who, your PCs.
I can't stay out of this thread any longer, despite my earnest desire to do so. I am certainly a part of the "irrational" faction of gamers that believes that Mystra's Chosen are the single most irratating and illogical aspect to the Realms. But while they are only the most awful and visible sympton of the disease the afflicts the Realms (an incredible lack of a balance of power between the forces of "evil" and the forces of "good"), they certainly are the most troublesome.
The regions in the FR that receive the most attention are completely dominated by the Chosen. Perhaps they are 5% of the population (a figure I will dispute, if you add together Cormyr, the Dalelands, Waterdeep, the Silver Marches, and Aglarond, you will get a very healthy population total; especially since a lot of FR's population is located in lands such as Mulhorand, Unther, Chessenta, and the South, which receive virtually no attention from gaming products), but they are a much larger percentage of the source material.
Furthermore, they are so powerful that many campaign ideas simply don't make sense. If an evil lord tries to take over Waterdeep, why wouldn't the Chosen just destroy him? If someone tries to overthrow the new Tethyrian monarchy, why wouldn't the Chosen simply intervene again and prop up a new puppet candidate (like Haedrek or Zaranda are now)? If the Overwizards of the Arcane Brotherhood threaten the Silver Marches, why don't the chosen just simply destroy their agents? If a Demon Lord or Archdevil aspect appear to threaten the Realms, why don't the Chosen just show up and wipe them out (the Chosen are certainly more powerful than any Fiend presented in either Codex)? If you want a priestess of Tiamat to take over Chessenta or Unther, how can you justify the Simbul not just teleporting across the waves and obliterating her? Etc., etc. It goes on and on. You can't create a plausible scenario wherein the Chosen of Mystra and their omnipotence and omnipresence don't present a serious problem with suspension of disbelief. Unless the villains in your campaign are plotting to steal apples, why aren't they attracting the attention of a group that has consistently thwarted every evil plot to appear in Faerun and are more powerful than even the avatars of most gods?
On top of this comes the most troublesome aspect of the Chosen: they are backed by the Goddess of Magic, who is now good-aligned! Perhaps it is a topic for another thread, but how a campaign world can function with the Goddess of Magic being an active opponent of "dark" forces has always puzzled me. I understand that TSR always required the good guys to win, but did they have to win to such an extent that they took over the portfolios of Magic and Death (and no one who has even a passing familiarity with Kelemvor should think for a second that he's a true LN deity)! That's virtually every important portfolio in Faerun controlled by a good aligned god or a god who is an ally of the good aligned gods.
So, in the end you have an incredibly powerful group of NPC's that dominate or control a large portion of the FR source material, backed by a good-aligned Goddess of Magic, and opposed only by some of the more comical bad-guys to ever be created (the hapless Zhentarim, incompetent Red Wizards, and cliched Shade; these guys make Gargomel and Cobra Commander look formidable). Certainly the DM can invent her own villains (and should, given this assortment), but given the incredible power levels of the Chosen, such a villain would need to beyond the scope of most adventuring parties or you would have a hard time justifying why the Chosen simply don't squash them.
I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier to the more direct rant, but one of the great problems with the FR today (and one reason I fear for its future) is that I don't see how you can entice non-novel reading players to be interested in a world where the powers of Good are so omni-present and how a group of 9-12 uber-powerful NPC's dominate the heart of the gaming world. Sure, players could set all their adventures in Damara, the Moonshaes, and the distant South, but then you're ignoring 99% of the published material.
Given that Mystra doesn't act as a good god, indeed rarely acts directly in Faerûn at all, and is worshipped by wizards and priests of most alignments, how do you think her nominal (simplified) alignment is relevant?
You're talking about beings well over 650 years old, they're gonna have a remarkably different perspective on what constitutes as something important and worthy of their involvement than most people out there... then there's the idea that if they do everything for everyone, what are people going to do when they aren't around? There's never been any indication that they don't have the foresight to see the implications there, and so often let others handle the matter so that the world around them doesn't become overly reliant upon them. A lot of them have adopted parental roles for the communities and world around them, and from all appearances, that means letting their kids scrape their knees, make mistakes, and sometimes even get themselves killed, since they're not going to learn otherwise. And that certainly wouldn't be in anyone's best interest.
But those who know basic FR geography are aware the Chosen rule directly in the Silver Marches, Waterdeep, and Aglarond. They dominate the Dalelands (at least two actively reside there). Their puppets rule in Tethyr and their influence is powerful in Cormyr. Leaving out the two large forests, that's a pretty healthy chunk of central Faerun.
As for whether Mystra's alignment matters, I suppose you would contend that she has never once intervened on the side of good v. evil? Furthermore, she directly interferes in the affairs of Faerun by granting demigod-like powers to the Chosen!
Edit: Whether the Chosen interfere in the day-to-lives of Faerun's citizens is not the most material fact about them (several of them rule countries, so they most certainly are more than simple parental figures at that point). The point is they are present and they are a crutch against anything too "evil" occuring. As I said, is it plausible to imagine the forces of evil ousting Zaranda and Haedrek in Tethyr without the Chosen intervening? Is it plausible to imagine the Silver Marches being destabilized while its ruler stands idle? I simply contend that it is not. The Chosen pigeonhole DM's who wish to avoid as much suspension of disbelief as possible when crafting stories in certain areas (like, say, the bulk) of central and northern Faerun. You certainly, as a DM, are free to craft a campaign where virtually anything happens, but it isn't going to make a lot of sense for evil to pop its head up openly too often when the Chosen can simply knock it back down again with relative ease.
As to the puppet thing in Tethyr... a reluctant one at best, more likely not one at all, considering how eager he was to even take the throne, and promptly abdicated his right to rule in favor of his wife.
Dominating the Dales... only Shadowdale last I checked, and even then Mourngrym was the lord there, not any of the Chosen. And their influence was so great that Archendale felt it could ignore El's advice and got angry that it was even offered...
And Aglarond and the Silver Marches are puppets dancing on the ends of the Chosens string no doubt. Which is why the dwarven kings are jockeying for position for who gets the crown next and half of Aglarond would rather see the Simbul and her elven pets tossed into the sea and promptly forgotten about...
And then the whole Mystra thing, with most of the Chosen created during the reign of a LN incarnation of Mystra, and the new Mystra having made... um... 1, possibly 2 chosen so far. Presuming Noumea Drathchuld was made a chosen during the new Mystra's reign... as to the second, there was some discussion of elevating Ophala Cheldarstone to their ranks, but I've no idea what's come of that, if anything...
So yeah, they have a huge chunk of Faerun pretty well locked up and totally under their control I see...
There are more powerfull evil NPCs than there are powerfull good NPCs. Since the FR is so Wizardly dominated, there is a huge derth of high level fighters, clerics and rogues. Did somebody pull Kuje's list out of candlekeep.
but
There are certainly more goodly aligned Gods than there are Evil by a long shot.
This indicates that 1, most of the humans of the realms are good, and not neutral, why a pantheon has to have as many evil gods as good I don't know. Look at the historical earthly pantheons in DD, almost all are mainly good.
2, The recurrent theme amongst NPCs is that power corrupts, there is a correlation between being powerfull and being evil.
So neither of these things bother me and is why I really like the realms.
In terms of the Good Vs. Evil theme:
There are more powerfull evil NPCs than there are powerfull good NPCs.
But the powerful good NPC's rule nations and dominate the game material. The powerful evil NPC's are just stat-blocks in various books and have very little control over the Realms. Its kind of a unique gameworld in this respect. Instead of a dystopian world where heroes are needed to bring hope to the people, its a utopian world where players are simply called upon to maintain the status quo.
The lack of "evil" or even aggressive nations is a major problem in the Realms in my opinion. I would "create" some, but then you are stuck with the problem of why the Chosen allowed this regime to come to power to begin with.
Its always mystified me why more people aren't bothered by the fact that one NG deity can create a nearly unlimited number of avater level "Chosen", but other Gods are not allowed to. Frankly, given the power of Mystra, her Chosen, her portfolio, and, most importantly, her alignment, its not a wonder why there is so little evil in Faerun, but why there is any at all.
In the distant past, I once compiled a list of all the good v. evil "kingdoms" in Faerun in response to a similar challenge from you that Faerun was "balanced" and despite the overwhelming number of "good" v. "neutral" v. "evil" states, you did not find such information of worth. I don't intend to repeat the exercise.
I will, then, including factors other than states.
Human and demihuman civilization: Referring to the FRCS, here's my estimate of the grossly generalized overall alignments of the people and rulers of the regions, factoring in populations:
good: Cormyr, Dalelands, Hordelands, Island Kingdoms*, North, Shining South, Vilhon Reach
* because of largely isolationst Evermeet
neutral: Chultan peninsula, Lake of Steam, Lands of Intrigue, Old Empires, Sembia, Unapproachable East, Western Heartlands
evil: Anauroch, Cold Lands, Dragon Coast, Moonsea, Underdark
Beasts and monsters: Most of Faerûn is wilderness, inhabited by animals and relatively small but mostly evil and individually formidable populations of monsters, including awesome dragons.
Human and demihuman non-local power groups: Most of the secular organizations are self-interested cabals working to improve their lot. Of the big, well-known ones, only the Harpers/Tel'Teukiira, Lords' Alliance, and Seven Sisters are good; about ten (depending on which you count) are evil. There's no published accounting of the strengths of the priesthoods, but our most thorough survey of their efficacy is Prayers from the Faithful, in which good and evil fare about evenly. All of these groups exert political power behind the scenes.
But are the evil groups incompetent? Judging by novels, you might think so; though protagonists prevailing is self-evidently a characteristic of commercial fiction, not the Realms in particular. Are the novels typical of what happens in the setting? No, but how to establish what is, given that so much Faerûnian history isn't in print? We can go through a comprehensive timeline, like Brian James's "Grand History of the Realms", and see which of good or evil gains the most lasting victories: and it's very even. Alternatively, compare the lay of the land in the modern Realms to any given historical era. There is little overall shift toward evil or good over time.
But those who know basic FR geography are aware the Chosen rule directly in the Silver Marches, Waterdeep, and Aglarond. They dominate the Dalelands (at least two actively reside there). Their puppets rule in Tethyr and their influence is powerful in Cormyr. Leaving out the two large forests, that's a pretty healthy chunk of central Faerun.
They don't rule Waterdeep. What evidence they dominate the Dales (Dalesfolk would fiercely resist any such domination) or Cormyr, or that Zaranda isn't her own woman?
As for whether Mystra's alignment matters, I suppose you would contend that she has never once intervened on the side of good v. evil? Furthermore, she directly interferes in the affairs of Faerun by granting demigod-like powers to the Chosen!
Why do you suppose that, when I said 'she rarely acts directly'? Her Chosen's powers have nothing to do with her 'new' alignment, and that power is conversely not available to the rest of her priesthood.
The point is they are present and they are a crutch against anything too "evil" occuring.
The sources differ: they didn't prevent the creation of Anauroch, the falls of Netheril, Raumathar, many dwarven and elven kingdoms, Myth Drannor, several Dales, the rise of Thay and Zhentil Keep, the Inner Sea pirates, many wicked usurpers, flights and rages of dragons, destructive wars, plagues, and any number of other catastrophes.
You certainly, as a DM, are free to craft a campaign where virtually anything happens, but it isn't going to make a lot of sense for evil to pop its head up openly too often when the Chosen can simply knock it back down again with relative ease.
Your impression of their abilities is grossly exaggerated from what the lore and rules state. Straightforwardly shown by the Simbul above, they aren't nearly able to do what you say, even if it was their wish, which it isn't, as The Seven Sisters states clearly. Yes, some would likely intercede in Tethyr (although they didn't before for decades) or the Silver Marches, but there's no guarantee they'd prevail.
Its always mystified me why more people aren't bothered by the fact that one LG deity can create a nearly unlimited number of avater level "Chosen", but other Gods are not allowed to. Frankly, given the power of Mystra, her Chosen, her portfolio, and, most importantly, her alignment, its not a wonder why there is so little evil in Faerun, but why there is any at all.
I have two things to say...
Mystra isn't LG.
Why play in the Realms if you feel this passionately about it being imbalanced and unplayable? I'm not trying to be nasty or anything with this point, but it always struck me that some people really love banging their heads on a brick wall, when they could be going off and enjoying other things. (And if you don't want to go off and play in other settings, why not just take a chunk of levels away from the Chosen and minimise their importance? It is doable, you know... Especially concidering*
Show
that Khelben has been taken out of the picture (though from my reading he has a non-Chosen replacement for being the Blackstaff), and Laeral is not going to live in Waterdeep now he's gone.
If one of my evil PCs became such a threat to Faerun that one of the Chosen had to track it down and end its reign of horror, I'd feel I'd won somehow, even though the character was dead . . . or, what if I somehow managed to kill the Chosen . . . tee hee.
Why play in the Realms if you feel this passionately about it being imbalanced and unplayable?
I wonder that. Facts (and exaggerations of 'utopia') aside, there's a matter of temperament here. Ed's descriptions of Luruar and Shadowdale make me wistful to visit or roleplay there. Some people prefer more oppressive settings, and they're best off using them.
I think if you could sample gamers who post about "Quashing Elminster because he s0xoRs!" you'd probably get a good number who respond that they had read beforehand about someone else saying Elminster and the Chosen were too powerful, so "it must be true".
OTOH I don't think everyone who reads Secrets of the Magister can grasp it in one reading. But one probably could make the loose connection that despite all the hullaballoo over the centuries, the Chosen remain above it all*.
:D
*This is a gross generalization, but not too unbelievable if you're not into reading the fine details.
I must wholeheartedly agree. Several good points have been made by the other side as well. Below are examples of ones that weren't..;)
And you don't think that this contradicts each other? How can something be stable and yet still have enough plots going on at any given time to keep thousands of adventurers (=high paid mercenaries), many powerfull enough to level whole villages alone, busy?
..Darren, I would like to talk to you about a little thing we liked to call the Holy Roman Empire. Or the British Empire. Or the Mogul Empire. Or the Mongol Empire. Or the Roman Empire. Or the Americans... I know of a couple of thousand Americans who could level more than a village with a gesture. I just thought coming back into RL could help make the point. Lets head back to the FR...
So, in the end you have an incredibly powerful group of NPC's that dominate or control a large portion of the FR source material, backed by a good-aligned Goddess of Magic, and opposed only by some of the more comical bad-guys to ever be created (the hapless Zhentarim, incompetent Red Wizards, and cliched Shade; these guys make Gargomel and Cobra Commander look formidable). Certainly the DM can invent her own villains (and should, given this assortment), but given the incredible power levels of the Chosen, such a villain would need to beyond the scope of most adventuring parties or you would have a hard time justifying why the Chosen simply don't squash them.
I offer the following, as others have many times before. If your villians play out as hapless Zhentarim, incompetent Red Wizards, and cliched Shade, or they are the kind of guys who make Gargomel and Cobra Commander look formidable, you need a new DM. If you are the DM you need to buy Lords of Darkness or Champions of Ruin. 1 page in LoD offers evil villians of levels 31, 27, 33, 27, and 23. Chapter 7 of CoR offers 8 more of even higher power. If those can't satisfy you then you most likely need a new attitude.:P
Its always mystified me why more people aren't bothered by the fact that one NG deity can create a nearly unlimited number of avater level "Chosen", but other Gods are not allowed to. Frankly, given the power of Mystra, her Chosen, her portfolio, and, most importantly, her alignment, its not a wonder why there is so little evil in Faerun, but why there is any at all.
If you think any of the Chosen come near an avatar your off your rocker. I wonder how all that chaos survived during the previous Mystra? Really really need a new DM. Or afforemention attitude.
Its always mystified me why more people aren't bothered by the fact that one NG deity can create a nearly unlimited number of avater level "Chosen", but other Gods are not allowed to. Frankly, given the power of Mystra, her Chosen, her portfolio, and, most importantly, her alignment, its not a wonder why there is so little evil in Faerun, but why there is any at all.
It seems to me, that you've fallen into the trap of assuming that Mystra's Chosen, and those of other deities, are essentially the same thing. They are not. The Chosen of Mystra actually operate a little differently. You need to understand why Mystra has the number of Chosen that she does, when compared to the Chosen of other deities.
As I've said many times... I never lump Mystra's Chosen together with the rest of the now more apparent Chosen of deities in the 3e FR.
Part of why Mystra's Chosen are unique is because of their role. They balance out Mystra, and store some of her power in case it's needed. They're kinda like "loyal opposition" -- they are loyal to Mystra, but they are not controlled by her, and with them having some of her power, they can act in opposition to her if she gets out of control. They are also assistants of a sort; they work to further the spread of magic, but in a pinch, they can also help to maintain the Weave.
That is why Mystra has Chosen. That is why hers are special. Most of the other Chosen of FR deities, or rather... Divine Champions as I call them, are but pale shadows.
"Divine Champion" would work well enough for any. Or any other title of specialty that doesn't reflect a connection to the special nature of Mystra's own Chosen. There's virtually no basis for the connection between the roles of the other "Chosen" of the various deities and Mystra's Chosen -- so the titles should be different.
To make the Divine Champions of the other deities similar to Mystra's Chosen takes away the charm of the Chosen characters and makes their entire position in the Realms seem "usual".
I would say that if the dales can be claimed to be dominated by Elminster and Storm then certainly one would have to agree that Calimishan and Tethyr are dominated by the Twisted Rune.
Amn is ruled in secret by the local thieves guild, i.e. the shadow thieves.
Westgate is also ruled in secret by vampires.
Luskan is ruled in secret by the Arcane Brotherhood fronted by the Lords of Luskan.
Shade is decidedly evil and dedicated with whole heart to Shar. Note they do pretend to be the good guys when they can.
Hlondeth is ruled by evil, in the form of the Yuan Ti.
The Western Heartlands are at least pushed a little here and there by the Naga in the serpent hills.
Mintarn is ruled by the southern Baneites and Teldorn Darkhope.
Unther was ruled for years by a NE deity.
Dambrath is ruled by evil half drow worshippers of Loviatar.
and those aren't even the obvious ones, i.e. Thay and Zhentil Keep.
Even a conservative addition and subtraction of these populations would be greater than the Dales, Silver Marches and Waterdeep
But those who know basic FR geography are aware the Chosen rule directly in the Silver Marches, Waterdeep, and Aglarond. They dominate the Dalelands (at least two actively reside there). Their puppets rule in Tethyr and their influence is powerful in Cormyr. Leaving out the two large forests, that's a pretty healthy chunk of central Faerun.
The Chosen do not rule in Waterdeep - the Lords of Waterdeep, headed by Piergeiron Paladinson, do. (Spoiler for the novel Blackstaff: )
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None of them even live there anymore, actually - Khelben is dead, and Laerel now lives in the city he died raising.
The Chosen do not rule in Waterdeep - the Lords of Waterdeep, headed by Piergeiron Paladinson, do. (Spoiler for the novel Blackstaff: )ShowNone of them even live there anymore, actually - Khelben is dead, and Laerel now lives in the city he died raising.
Heya,
I have two things to say...
Mystra isn't LG.
Why play in the Realms if you feel this passionately about it being imbalanced and unplayable? I'm not trying to be nasty or anything with this point, but it always struck me that some people really love banging their heads on a brick wall, when they could be going off and enjoying other things. (And if you don't want to go off and play in other settings, why not just take a chunk of levels away from the Chosen and minimise their importance? It is doable, you know... Especially concidering*
* Spoiler for Blackstaff by Steven E Schend.
What other setting do you advise using? The generic? Eberron? That is all that is left. The FR enjoys great advantages over either.
You can't minimize the importance of the Chosen if they keep showing up in every book, even if the book contains little warnings saying "just because the Chosen are omni-present, don't feel compelled to use them in your campaign, just be aware that they out there and make up some excuse as to why they are busy, even though there are a dozen of them."
Everyone makes wonderful points that some areas of the world contain evil; it is a fantasy setting where the players are expected to be the "good" guys afterall. But having monsters in the wilderness or cults in the sewers is not the same thing as controlling a region. But control seems to be a relative term (as I've noticed above, people refuse to concede the Chosen's influence in a city they've saved repeated times, Waterdeep, and a country they created, the Silver Marches, a kingdom whose monarchy they restored and would likely do so again, Tethyr and some even in a country a chosen rules as Queen, the absurdly presented Aglarond) and there seems little point in canvassing the issue if such basic definitions are lacking. If you think that the Chosen don't permeate the Heartlands, Tethyr, the Silver Marches, Aglarond and Waterdeep, then your interpretation of the source material (especially the game material) differs greatly from my own.
I think the only thing to say in summary is that I stand by the point that the FR presents a utopian vision of a fantasy world, placing the players in the strange position of bulwarks of a status quo. Perhaps I simply prefer a dystopian view, where the players are actually necessary to a grander story than just tiny cogs in a great "goodness" machine. If the FRCS sees fit to publish a disclaimer about the power of the Chosen (advising DM's to either ignore or make up excuses why the Chosen don't intervene in a given situation), then clearly the setting has a balance issue.
Its always mystified me why more people aren't bothered by the fact that one NG deity can create a nearly unlimited number of avater level "Chosen", but other Gods are not allowed to. Frankly, given the power of Mystra, her Chosen, her portfolio, and, most importantly, her alignment, its not a wonder why there is so little evil in Faerun, but why there is any at all.
"...a nearly unlimited number of avatar level 'Chosen'..."
You sure we're reading the same books here? It's wild overgeneralizations like this that render your posts invalid. The multiple lore-based errors don't help either. Your view of Faerun is muddled. Folks are trying to clear your vision. Let them.
-- George Krashos
"...a nearly unlimited number of avatar level 'Chosen'..."
You sure we're reading the same books here? It's wild overgeneralizations like this that render your posts invalid. The multiple lore-based errors don't help either. Your view of Faerun is muddled. Folks are trying to clear your vision. Let them.
Hyperbole is the weapon of the desparate or the frustrated.
The Realms frustrates me. But Mystra, in her various incarnations, has shown a proclivity to creating a rather large number of good Chosen, many of which still infest the Realms today.
If a Demon Lord or Archdevil aspect appear to threaten the Realms, why don't the Chosen just show up and wipe them out (the Chosen are certainly more powerful than any Fiend presented in either Codex)?
That is why the Aspect design scheme of the Codices are great. The Aspect is just a base creature, the designers provided notes on how to up the challenge of these Aspects for as high as you need. Presumably, when an Archdevil or Demon Lord needs to face an opponent like the Chosen, they would create an appropriate Aspect and then possibly pile heaps of decently powerful fiendish servitors along for the ride. Do not forget, a Yugoloth army obliterated Cormanthor even with the active participation of several Chosen. That ended with one Chosen torn to pieces and scarred for life, I believe one died, and one had to get take out of the scene and saved for future plans.
In the past of the Multiverse, several deities have attempted to challenge the Archdevils or the Demon Lords, many of those gods died, and practically all of them failed in the long run. Just ask Shemmy. This is further supported by Ed Greenwood, who recently debunked the assumption that in the novel ELMINSTER IN HELL Mystra was powerful enough to "win" an encounter with Asmodeus by transfering Halaster's insanity to the Lord of the Nine. She merely managed to cast a potent confuse style spell on him using her divine power and probably Halaster's insanity as a component. In the end it was a minor, short-term victory for a greater goddess (akin to a special forces strike to recover a hostage ending in a fighting retreat) and a virtually meaningless setback for the forces of Hell, which could recover those insignificant loses in no time (probable seeing as the Chaotic brand of evil does not dominate the lower planes and whatever version of the Blood War the new cosmology has still rages on).
If you want a priestess of Tiamat to take over Chessenta or Unther, how can you justify the Simbul not just teleporting across the waves and obliterating her? Etc., etc.
Tchazzar is working on that acquisition actually, and he's evil and backed by Tiamat (whether he knows it or not, or even cares).
Unless the villains in your campaign are plotting to steal apples, why aren't they attracting the attention of a group that has consistently thwarted every evil plot to appear in Faerun and are more powerful than even the avatars of most gods?
This is incorrect as far as the discussions I've seen on the topic. Based on the stats provided in Faiths and Pantheons, the divine avatars of Faerunian deities are somewhere upwards of CR 50-60+ (typically about 40 class levels plus another 10-20 EL worth of divine abilities). The characters who come closest would probably be Ioulaum (who is CN) and a few dragons such as Inferno and Tchazzar (both evil) before the likes of Elminster and the Simbul, followed closely by some of the other Chosen and bad guys like Shoon VII, Szass Tam, Larloch, the top members of the Twisted Ruin, the Princes of Shade, several more evil dragons, etc. A handful of less over-exposed goodly NPCs are present along with them.
Their puppets rule in Tethyr and their influence is powerful in Cormyr.
Interestingly, Vangdahast really dislikes Elminster (I believe he was once El's apprentice). I guess his LN-ness just can't stand the CG-ness of the old sage. Cormyr has traditionally been rather independent of any church or any non-Cormyrian influence really. It is doubtful the Chosen have any more influence over Cormyr than any nation that happens to have shared interest in preserving their own perspective on peace and prosperity.
The lack of "evil" or even aggressive nations is a major problem in the Realms in my opinion. I would "create" some, but then you are stuck with the problem of why the Chosen allowed this regime to come to power to begin with.
A number have tried their hands at rulership and found it extremely difficult. Elminster and Laeral abdicated their thrones and those nations soon disintegrated. As others have pointed out, while the Simbul and Alustriel are in respectable command of their nations, they have many factions opposing them. Not all is sunny and happy in Faerun, far from utopian.
Even FR's sourcebooks and many of the novels haven't been so shallow as to portray an absolute black and white view of things. Sure, the alignment issue is a bit more clear cut than say Eberron (which is even quite arguable), but there is enough gray to show a decent reflection of real world trends. The real world is far from the setup of monolithic good versus evil, and so is Faerun in many cases.
Frankly, given the power of Mystra, her Chosen, her portfolio, and, most importantly, her alignment, its not a wonder why there is so little evil in Faerun, but why there is any at all.
History knows the military power, the economic power, the cultural power, the sea power, the nuclear power, the superpower of each era has tried to assert unrivaled dominance, but not a single one has come close to absolute control.
You can't minimize the importance of the Chosen if they keep showing up in every book, even if the book contains little warnings saying "just because the Chosen are omni-present, don't feel compelled to use them in your campaign, just be aware that they out there and make up some excuse as to why they are busy, even though there are a dozen of them."
That only exists because the novels put too much emphasis on them which forced the sourcebooks to put the disclaimer in to abate the arguments people keep putting up saying how they ruin the setting.
Everyone makes wonderful points that some areas of the world contain evil; it is a fantasy setting where the players are expected to be the "good" guys afterall. But having monsters in the wilderness or cults in the sewers is not the same thing as controlling a region. But control seems to be a relative term (as I've noticed above, people refuse to concede the Chosen's influence in a city they've saved repeated times, Waterdeep, and a country they created, the Silver Marches, a kingdom whose monarchy they restored and would likely do so again, Tethyr and some even in a country a chosen rules as Queen, the absurdly presented Aglarond) and there seems little point in canvassing the issue if such basic definitions are lacking. If you think that the Chosen don't permeate the Heartlands, Tethyr, the Silver Marches, Aglarond and Waterdeep, then your interpretation of the source material (especially the game material) differs greatly from my own.
You're right, your view does differ drastically from my own (and some others on these boards). I agree that they hold great influence over their respective areas, but except for Aglarond, I wouldn't say they rule the places they inhabit. The Lords of Waterdeep run the day-to-day affairs and have just as much say in the large matters as Khelben, if not more. Alustriel's direct influence does not extend all that far outside of Silverymoon. She has a say in the activities of the Silver Marches, but the nation is more of a confederacy, and those tend to be loosely organized. There is more individual decision making amongst the various member states. They don't have to agree on anything, and often don't. They can't even agree on a definite course of action against Obould's orc horde/nation. The monarchy of Tethyr was reformed due to Zaranda's well earned right to rule (and Siamorphe's blessing) and the Tethyrian's will to return to their former peace more than any Chosen intervention. Just because Haedrak was close to Elminster does not mean he's a Chosen puppet. If I recall correctly, both Manshoon and Vangedahast were former apprentices of Elminster's and both don't like him at all.
I think the only thing to say in summary is that I stand by the point that the FR presents a utopian vision of a fantasy world, placing the players in the strange position of bulwarks of a status quo. Perhaps I simply prefer a dystopian view, where the players are actually necessary to a grander story than just tiny cogs in a great "goodness" machine. If the FRCS sees fit to publish a disclaimer about the power of the Chosen (advising DM's to either ignore or make up excuses why the Chosen don't intervene in a given situation), then clearly the setting has a balance issue.
I personally don't like having my characters set up as automatic sole saviors of an entire setting. I don't feel the Realms represents a utopian world. A utopian world wouldn't need the chosen at all, and even less reason for your PCs. Utopian worlds are set up to illustrate how a world and its socieities should be. The Realms as presented, even with all the Chosen running madly about trying to keep situations from exploding in everyone's face, is far from such an ideal tranquil setting. On the other hand, dystopian stories exist typically to show how a world should not be, where everything is wrong with no hope of fixing it. In many dystopian stories, there is no winning, no triumph at the end of a long quest, the dark end has come and there is nothing you can do. I find those rather depressing for long term games (short term ones are fine). The D&D settings that come close to that atmosphere are Dark Sun and Ravenloft. To maintain their tone, they could never change. TSR created disastrous setting shaking events for them and the settings lost a lot of what made them unique. Like I said, I don't think those settings are for the long term unless the PCs never have any victories. FR is a good medium for me, it has relatively stable and safe places but also plenty of areas in conflict or under threat.
I have no problem with the rest of post but Quilue still lives underneath Waterdeep to the best of my knowledge, and does on occasions come to the surface. Of course she doesnt have a great influence in Waterdeep proper, but I imagine that without her sister to provide her with info about what is happening up there, that she may well start taking a more active interest in it.
Living in Skullport and living in Waterdeep are two very different things. Just because one is above/below the other doesn't mean those living in one have anything to do with the other. Quile rarely leaves the Underdark as far as I know, much less goes into Waterdeep in particular. Shes basically an ignorable Chosen outside of Skullport.
just because the Chosen are omni-present
Except of course for the fact that they are not omnipresent. They're not omni-anything. Nine Hells, their primary jobs are advancing magical research, spreading magic, and protecting the Weave, not foiling random villains! It always has been, and always will be. Just because the novels they show up in show them as the heroes doesn't mean thats why they exist. They act as heroes in the novels because, surprise surprise, they're the protagonists of those novels and thus acting as heroes in the events those portray. Novels showing them researching spells, teaching students, or pouring over tomes wouldn't sell - no conflict - so they're not written. But that, plus protecting the Weave and doing errands for Mystra, is what most of them do most of the time.
I think the only thing to say in summary is that I stand by the point that the FR presents a utopian vision of a fantasy world
You're reading about a very different FR then I am then, because the one I know is nothing of the sort.
then your interpretation of the source material (especially the game material) differs greatly from my own.
That much, we can definitely agree on.
Zevox
What other setting do you advise using? The generic? Eberron? That is all that is left.
Of course it isn't. There are many more settings published by TSR or Wizards, by other RPG publishers, and adaptable from fantasy fiction.
You can't minimize the importance of the Chosen if they keep showing up in every book, . . .
The one has no direct bearing on the other: distinguishing the marketing and publishing of a setting from the setting itself is one of the basic processes of reading a secondary world. Or do you think a quarter of great events in the Star Wars galaxy happen on Tatooine?
But having monsters in the wilderness or cults in the sewers is not the same thing as controlling a region.
No, they're different. Are you saying that evil societies and overt governments are the only valid form of evil? If so, according to the FRCS, Faerûn doesn't lack for them.
But control seems to be a relative term (as I've noticed above, people refuse to concede the Chosen's influence . . .
Not their influence, their rule and dominance.
In what conceivable way could a dozen people permeate a land (without modern communication) of tens of millions, including scores of comparable power to themselves? If you're claiming the sources back your impression up, cite some evidence that the Chosen control governments, destroy a sizeable proportion of menaces, are at the front of everyone's thinking, affect everyone's lives . . . something.
I think the only thing to say in summary is that I stand by the point that the FR presents a utopian vision of a fantasy world, placing the players in the strange position of bulwarks of a status quo.
Above you called it 'kind of a unique gameworld'. Do you really think that every other fantasy setting is a land of constant, looming, choking evil that pits the PCs against incredible odds?
Perhaps I simply prefer a dystopian view, where the players are actually necessary to a grander story than just tiny cogs in a great "goodness" machine.
Likely so. The Realms locates heroism in personal striving, courage, love and sacrifice, not in any one grand (single or composite) narrative.
If the FRCS sees fit to publish a disclaimer about the power of the Chosen (advising DM's to either ignore or make up excuses why the Chosen don't intervene in a given situation), then clearly the setting has a balance issue.
That's a non sequitur. All it indicates is that the authors were aware that the perception exists, and that the situation needs to be explained. Calling it 'excuses' is just a sneer unless you indicate how you think the high-level machinations of the Realms are inconsistent, perhaps without the muddling hyperbole.
A campaign set around a moustache-twirling villain who seeks to "takeover Waterdeep" deserves what it gets IMO - whether it's a stomping by the Chosen or the inertia and lassitude brought about by uninspired, hackneyed, stereotypical 'great ideas'.
I'll play if you're offering to run one.
What other setting do you advise using? The generic? Eberron? That is all that is left. The FR enjoys great advantages over either.
If you really really really have a problem with the Realms, then Eberron or Greyhawk there for you to use. There are also other worlds from other companies that you could look at as well - I'm not familiar enough with them, and I won't name them because of where I am posting.
Or you could take the Forgotten Realms and canibalize it for the bits you like and discard the rest. People have been doing this type of thing since... well since Dungeons and Dragons began.
Or... you could, you know, write your own. Speaking of which, I'm in the process of developing another home brew world, stealing liberally from a variety of sources - though strangely enough, not from the Forgotten Realms beyond a few very generic ideas. Yes, it is hard work, but ultimately rewarding.
You can't minimize the importance of the Chosen if they keep showing up in every book, even if the book contains little warnings saying "just because the Chosen are omni-present, don't feel compelled to use them in your campaign, just be aware that they out there and make up some excuse as to why they are busy, even though there are a dozen of them."
Unless the players specifically ask about the Chosen, the DM shouldn't tell them anything. And if they do, the DM should then ask them if it's the player asking or the character. In the case of the character, if it's in character for them, make them make a Gather Information roll (with a very steep DC) to work out what a particular Chosen is up to (seperate roll for each individual Chosen!). If it's OOC for the character, then I don't know - dock them XP if it's very out of character, or give them a smart answer if it's not. If it's the player, just tell them that they don't need to know that. If the player still has a problem with it, and if you're running your game in a game year where there's a major novel event happening point the player at the novel, otherwise there isn't much you can do except say that the Chosen is dealing with something else. (Who knows, they might actually be watching the PCs to see what they do, and perhaps even providing subtle help along the way - a healing potion here, a scroll there, a clue elsewhere. And maybe even step in if the players stuff up royally (due to bad luck rather than bad plans) to help bail them out.)
I can't think of a single PC of mine that has ever asked "what are the Chosen up to, and why aren't they here dealing with the BBEG?" I suppose this is partially because by the time we end up dealing with things that the Chosen would take an interest in, they HAVE and are working WITH my characters. I personally get a kick out of that, but I suppose other people might not. *shrug*
As for the presence or absence of evil, I think we see the Realms differently, I'm afraid, and this is about time to agree to disagree.
Interestingly, Vangdahast really dislikes Elminster (I believe he was once El's apprentice). I guess his LN-ness just can't stand the CG-ness of the old sage. Cormyr has traditionally been rather independent of any church or any non-Cormyrian influence really. It is doubtful the Chosen have any more influence over Cormyr than any nation that happens to have shared interest in preserving their own perspective on peace and prosperity.
Vangerdahast is no longer a power in Cormyr, and hasn't been for some time. As far as Caladnei's relationship with the Chosen goes (or Alusair's, or even Filfaeril's), I don't really know. Hmm... maybe it's time I browsed through Elminster's Daughter again.
This is Turmish specific since that's where I'm running a campaign right now and before you say "Turmish doesn't matter!" just take a minute to think about what would happen if the fields and orchards of Turmish didn't turn out product and if you can't figure out the ramifications of such an event then. . . well. . . I don't think you have the perspective to really understand the workings of the Realms.
Here we go!
A Turmish nobleman (1) is in the process of trying to turn Turmish into a Monarchy because he doesn't believe in Republicanism (2). This nobleman is engaging wizards to get them to transport dangerous creatures into his lands, setting up an emergency situation so he can declare a martial law.
A Turminian Merchant House has learned how much money can be made trafficing humans, they've worked out a deal with Nimpethian slavers to smuggle slaves to Nimpethian ships.
Nimpethian slavers have worked out a deal with humanoid tribes in the Aphrunn Mountains where the humanoids trade slaves for weapons and armor (of a generic variety)
There's three, three that can very easily be worked into campaigns, shoot them down. I'm working on ideas in the Dales, Silver Marches and other areas to provide some for areas where the Chosen are more active. Since that's not where I've been focusing my work it will take a little bit of time.
1)or exnobleman/major land owner if Turmish no longer has a nobility, I've not read that they still do have an "official nobility" but there are certainly old noble familys who own large amounts of land and effectively operate as nobility. . . phew
2)Republicanism only shares a name with a US major party, it is not the same, if you don't understand that go to wikipedia and read what Republicanism is
A Turmish nobleman (1) is in the process of trying to turn Turmish into a Monarchy because he doesn't believe in Republicanism (2). This nobleman is engaging wizards to get them to transport dangerous creatures into his lands, setting up an emergency situation so he can declare a martial law.
I can see the Harpers getting involved with this one, especially if they think it will effect the greater stability of the region... That is a rather indirect way the Chosen could get involved.
A Turminian Merchant House has learned how much money can be made trafficing humans, they've worked out a deal with Nimpethian slavers to smuggle slaves to Nimpethian ships.
Nimpethian slavers have worked out a deal with humanoid tribes in the Aphrunn Mountains where the humanoids trade slaves for weapons and armor (of a generic variety)
Once again, if the Chosen were to do something about it, they'd work indirectly through agents - perhaps through the Harpers who might also indirectly hire the PCs to do some (or all) of the legwork.
There's three, three that can very easily be worked into campaigns, shoot them down. I'm working on ideas in the Dales, Silver Marches and other areas to provide some for areas where the Chosen are more active. Since that's not where I've been focusing my work it will take a little bit of time.
The thing is, the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies, and have many plots in progress. If they were to get involved in "lower level" disputes, they would work very indirectly through several layers of agents. The Chosen give the Harpers/Moonstars/Good PCs subtle clues (not directly) to look over there see what's going on, and then they just sit back and let their agents work out what to do, maybe giving them a hint or a gentle shove in the right direction when they need it. It would be entirely possible to have your PCs working for the Chosen without the PCs ever realising it - until later when their efforts are rewarded unexpectedly.
IMHO, the Chosen are a very very useful tool for a GM... And this has got me thinking about the homebrew world I'm working on and wondering what I can put in place that would act in a similar role.
Heya,
I can see the Harpers getting involved with this one, especially if they think it will effect the greater stability of the region... That is a rather indirect way the Chosen could get involved.
Nope, Harper agents are treated just like Zhents or Red Wizards in the Reach. The people of the Reach govern themselves, not some jumped up bards and woodsfolk from the backward parts of the Realms.
Harpers don't get to do much work in the entirety of the Reach really.
Once again, if the Chosen were to do something about it, they'd work indirectly through agents - perhaps through the Harpers who might also indirectly hire the PCs to do some (or all) of the legwork.
Hiring the PCs might work out, but if their connections to the Harpers are exposed then they can expect some quick banishment.
The thing is, the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies, and have many plots in progress. If they were to get involved in "lower level" disputes, they would work very indirectly through several layers of agents. The Chosen give the Harpers/Moonstars/Good PCs subtle clues (not directly) to look over there see what's going on, and then they just sit back and let their agents work out what to do, maybe giving them a hint or a gentle shove in the right direction when they need it. It would be entirely possible to have your PCs working for the Chosen without the PCs ever realising it - until later when their efforts are rewarded unexpectedly.
Oh, most certainly, that's exactly how I envision it. Except the Chosen still can't be everywhere at once and most people don't want to be puppets on a string.
IMHO, the Chosen are a very very useful tool for a GM... And this has got me thinking about the homebrew world I'm working on and wondering what I can put in place that would act in a similar role.
Eh, I don't use the Chosen much at all, they have a large network of informers, they try to influence events in subtle ways (mostly through the selection of agents though, they may want an agent to go about something a certain way but things usually don't work out like that *g*)
Heya,
The thing is, the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies, and have many plots in progress. If they were to get involved in "lower level" disputes, they would work very indirectly through several layers of agents. The Chosen give the Harpers/Moonstars/Good PCs subtle clues (not directly) to look over there see what's going on, and then they just sit back and let their agents work out what to do, maybe giving them a hint or a gentle shove in the right direction when they need it. It would be entirely possible to have your PCs working for the Chosen without the PCs ever realising it - until later when their efforts are rewarded unexpectedly.
IMHO, the Chosen are a very very useful tool for a GM... And this has got me thinking about the homebrew world I'm working on and wondering what I can put in place that would act in a similar role.
Isn't this exactly the point I've been trying to make? That the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies? That the Realms forces you to consider how the Chosen are involved in almost every hook, particularly those hooks that take place in the regions where the Chosen are most active (which, to repeat myself, are the regions most heavily covered by the source material)?
In what conceivable way could a dozen people permeate a land (without modern communication) of tens of millions, including scores of comparable power to themselves? If you're claiming the sources back your impression up, cite some evidence that the Chosen control governments, destroy a sizeable proportion of menaces, are at the front of everyone's thinking, affect everyone's lives . . . .
I thought I had cited examples of governments controlled, dominated, and overly influenced by the Chosen. They include the Silver Marches (ruled by a Chosen, how much power you interpret her to have may vary, but a Chosen is the ruler), Aglarond, Waterdeep (up to the sourcebook Waterdeep at least), Tethyr (a government created by Chosen-backed puppets/agents) and the Dalelands (to argue the Chosen aren't a primary influence in this area would seem odd to me).
I still think that a powerful argument that the sources back my perception up is that the main source, itself, the FRCS and other sources have to include a disclaimer saying that my perception isn't the only way to interpret the setting. If the perception of the Chosen as overly involved in the Realms affairs wasn't at least a little valid, then the source materials wouldn't put such effort into proposing an alternative view. Of course, they propose that alternative view and continue to publish material that forces the Chosen down our throats.
Isn't this exactly the point I've been trying to make? That the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies? That the Realms forces you to consider how the Chosen are involved in almost every hook, particularly those hooks that take place in the regions where the Chosen are most active (which, to repeat myself, are the regions most heavily covered by the source material)?
The Chosen having their fingers in an awful lot of pies does not equal The Chosen being involved in every adventure hook available. Nor does it mean that their "finger in the pie" actually means anything more than "Once a month or so they expend a scrying spell to check up on the situation as best they are able"
They do not have an unlimited number of operatives, those operatives they do have enjoy varying levels of trust and are mostly independed (ie. they owe the Chosen no particular allegence above and beyond their friendship/mentor relationship)
The Chosen are not powerful enough to stop all the evil plots, even in their own backyard (Cormanthor, for example, has roughly 70k drow operating in it, a concerted effort by all of the Chosen might be able to clear out the forest but it's not likely that they would succeed and it's not likely that they would succeed unscathed, further, the risk of drow getting ahold of part of Mystra's divine essence is too great for them to do anything that might get them caught)
Your arguments haven't spoken to the points others have posted, pick a group, tell us how and why the Chosen would destroy/disable/whatever them. I'm quite confident that many posters here can tell you why they can't just destroy the Zhents/Red Wizards/Cult of the Dragon/ect
I thought I had cited examples of governments controlled, dominated, and overly influenced by the Chosen.
In your opinion.
They include the Silver Marches (ruled by a Chosen, how much power you interpret her to have may vary, but a Chosen is the ruler)
As per FRCS the Silver Marches are a Confederation of lords headed by Alustriel of Silverymoon. That is not direct rulership in the least, nor is it direct control over the varied lords. Further, even if Alustriel decided that she's had enough of lords not doing as she would like them to and started using magic to control them she would be found out right quick, the confederation would shatter and the Silver Marches would cease to be. If Alustriel decided that the best idea would be to send forces into the orcish holds to clear out trouble before it started she would still have to raise funds to field such a force, convince people to join said force and convince the lords of the confederation that it is in their best interests to do so. It's not cut and dry and it is not easy to accomplish, even if you are a powerful magic user.
Aglarond
The Simbul doesn't have the time, desire or power to keep up with everything that happens in Aglarond. Further, the forest to the north of Aglarond is largely a mystery to her. She is very powerful but she is hardly omnipotent, omnipresent or omnipowerful.
Waterdeep (up to the sourcebook Waterdeep at least)
Waterdeep is ruled by a council of 16 lords. I'm not entirely sure if Blackstaff was a lord or not (don't pay much attention to Waterdeep *g*) but even if he was 1 of the 16 that is not "ruling Waterdeep"
Tethyr (a government created by Chosen-backed puppets/agents)
Yep, because it was SO EASY to just plop those two on the throne. Yep, easy as pie. It didn't have anything to do with the fact that they had legitimate bloodlines to the throne, popular and noble support and won a succession war. Nope, it's cause El said so.
and the Dalelands (to argue the Chosen aren't a primary influence in this area would seem odd to me).
They aren't, mostly because they don't chose to be but that's actually besides the point. The Dales are very spread out and even when they've been taken over by forces the Dalefolk still resisted. Further, one of the important flavors of the Dalefolk is that they resist authority.
I still think that a powerful argument that the sources back my perception up is that the main source, itself, the FRCS and other sources have to include a disclaimer saying that my perception isn't the only way to interpret the setting. If the perception of the Chosen as overly involved in the Realms affairs wasn't at least a little valid, then the source materials wouldn't put such effort into proposing an alternative view.
Posts such as this, that constantly ignore the many valid, thought out reasons that the Chosen aren't "ubergods" are the reason for that disclaimer. Not because the game designers feel the setting is unbalanced. If they DID feel that way then they would work to correct that.
Of course, they propose that alternative view and continue to publish material that forces the Chosen down our throats.
Because people buy that material and that's what business is all about. Once again, a book that covers the Chosen sells better than a book that covers nameless wizard X, Y or Z. RSEs sell better as novels than non-RSEs (not 100% on this actually but I'm pretty sure)
The novels do not portray everyday life in the Realms. An absolute MYRIAD of people involved in the creation and developement of the Realms have stated this.
It would be unreasonable to set an adventure in the Silver Marches, Tethyr, the Dalelands, Waterdeep, or Aglarond that involved any kind of mid to high level plot against or within those nations that doesn't take the Chosen into account. That's what bothers me. Those regions are closed to those of us who prefer to have no dealings with Mystra or Mystra's ultra-powerful NPC's.
Your posts confuse me, ShadezofDiz. I'm sorry. I state that Alustriel rules the Silver Marches (and she is the head of it) and you say she does not rule it because she doesn't have absolute power.
Correct, this means that Alustriel can't fly on over to lands controlled by a specific lord and blast away an evil threat without consulting the lord in question. This lord may say "Nope, sorry, don't want you flambaying X, Y or Z because that will show a weakness in my rule and I won't be able to hold onto power"
If you cannot understand that then you should play in a much simpler campaign world.
That is a straw man argument.
Really? In what way?
You are stating (correct me if I am wrong) that the Chosen can do whatever they like, I'm saying they cannot and am giving a reason why.
I state that Simbul rules Aglarond (and she is the Queen) and you, again, say she doesn't have absolute power, so she doesn't control it. I don't understand that either.
Pretty cut and dry. The Simbul's rule (much like the rule of most everyone in power) relies on public support of her rule. If the people of Aglarond wanted the Simbul out they could kick her out (1.2 million > any of the chosen)
Further, anything the Simbul does, by extention, is something that Aglarond does. If she started flying here and there, blowing up whatever she chose, then Aglarond would garner a lot more enemies than they can handle, Chosen ruler or no.
I state that Agents of the Chosen control Tethyr and were put in power with the support of the Chosen and you argue that because it was hard for the Chosen to accomplish, that the rulers of Tethyr are not influenced by the Chosen. I just don't understand that line of reasoning.
I was being sarcastic in saying that the rulers of Tethyr are puppets of the Chosen. They are their own people, THEY rule Tethyr and not the Chosen. They certainly respect the Chosen's advice but they will do what is good for Tethyr and what is good for themselves before doing what is good for the Chosen.
Further, the brunt of the effort to reclaim Tethyr was done without overt Chosen support. You may disagree, but please cite some sources.
I state that the Chosen have influence in the Dales and you state that they don't, even though Chosen live there and defended the Dales on innumerable occasions. Isn't that the definition of being a primary influence? What kind of power do the Chosen have to wield in an area to be in "control"? Apparently ruling the nation (Aglarond), setting up the government of a nation (Tethyr), creating the nation (Silver Marches), and living in the nation (the Dalelands) don't qualify at all? So who has control of anything in the Realms, Chosen or not?
The Silver Marches are a mutual defense confederation, it IS NOT A NATION in and of itself. Politics in the Realms isn't a matter of "I'm a 15th level wizard, therefor I should rule instead of that 12th level wizard" It's a matter of convincing people to do things that you would like them to do, which is most easily accomplished through economic deals rather than overt fighting.
The Chosen ARE influencial but they are hardly the only influence, nor even the biggest influence.
It would be unreasonable to set an adventure in the Silver Marches, Tethyr, the Dalelands, Waterdeep, or Aglarond that involved any kind of mid to high level plot against or within those nations that doesn't take the Chosen into account. That's what bothers me. Those regions are closed to those of us who prefer to have no dealings with Mystra or Mystra's ultra-powerful NPC's.
Why is it unreasonable to say that these people have a life? If Alustriel is trying to calm tentions between a few lords of the Silver Marches then she's not going to drop everything, probably insulting the lords she's supposed to be visiting and perhaps doing lasting harm to the Silver Marches CONFEDERATION (NOT nation, different things), to run off and "stop the lich from taking ancient dwarven artifacts" She probably has NO CLUE that the lich is there in the first place.
These places aren't controlled by the Chosen, they are a few people in regions inhabited by MILLIONS of people, not to mention humanoids, monsters, demons, devils, animals, etc There is NO WAY they are keeping tabs on everything in "their domain" or however you would like to put it.
Isn't this exactly the point I've been trying to make? That the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies?
It would be unreasonable to set an adventure in the Silver Marches, Tethyr, the Dalelands, Waterdeep, or Aglarond that involved any kind of mid to high level plot against or within those nations that doesn't take the Chosen into account.
Remove 'Tethyr' (I cite the Sythillisian Empire), 'mid to', and moderate 'any kind of', since no one has such reliable long-distance intelligence networks as you suggest, and the lore is full of people doing such stuff with no Chosen of Mystra in sight.
What you're missing is that the same is true of half a dozen other power groups, most of them selfish or malevolent. There's no basis for your singling the Chosen out in particular.
Frankly, those kind of hooks bore me. I wouldn't play in such campaigns or DM them. Any kind of political plot, though, would necessarily have to involve the Chosen if its set in a nation dominated by the Chosen. If you wanted to build a campaign around another claimant to the Tethyrian throne and built up a story around a villain strong enough to dethrone Zaranda and Haedrek, how would you justify that villain not arousing the attention of the Chosen who put those two on the throne to begin with? If you wanted to build a campaign around orcs sweeping into the Silver Marches, that's going to involve Alustriel by necessity. If you wanted to invent a true heir to the throne of Aglarond, rather than the usurper Simbul, that kind of campaign will have to involve the Simbul, because she's "queen" of Aglarond. I personally have trouble separating the Chosen from even more distant plots, such as Tiamat taking over Chessenta and Unther or a Caranthal restoration in the Moonshaes, but perhaps that is my own bias against the setting's balance of power. But, regardless, if you were setting a political campaign in the central and northern parts of Faerun, its hard to imagine that the Chosen would sit on the sidelines and let "evil" or aggressive powers rise in those areas.
Any plot that goes beyond petty crime or has as its goal the acquisition of POLITICAL (v. personal) power on the part of the antagonist is going to have to take into account how will the Chosen rulers or Chosen in general deal with that threat. And that's what closes off portions of the Realms to the more interesting plot-lines (at least to me anyway).
Incidentally, Switzerland was a confederation and is still called the Swiss Confederation officially. You wouldn't have considered them a nation? Edit: Point partially refuted below. Good research. I still consider Switzerland before 1848 as a nation and I still consider the Silver Marches a "state" in that same sense, but I was wrong about them still being a substantive confederation.
Remove 'Tethyr' (I cite the Sythillisian Empire), 'mid to', and moderate 'any kind of', since no one has such reliable long-distance intelligence networks as you suggest, and the lore is full of people doing such stuff with no Chosen of Mystra in sight.
My understanding of the Sythillisian Empire is that it invaded and conquered Amnish territory, not Tethyr. Which is "evil" destroying "evil" since Amn is one of the few larger nation-states that is not ruled by overtly good forces.
If the setting did not intend for the Chosen to dominate in Tethyr, then it should not have created a backstory whereby the Chosen selected the next monarchs of Tethyr. I can't imagine that if someone overthrew Zaranda and Haedrek, even someone with a rightful claim on the throne, that the Chosen would not get involved. This is exactly the kind of plot I would enjoy and its exactly the kind that is forestalled by the Chosen.
Incidentally, Switzerland is a confederation. You don't consider them a nation?
First things first.
Confederation, as per Wiki;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation
Switzerland, as per Wiki;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland
Note; Switzerland was a confederation until 1848 when it turned into federation.
Federation, as per Wiki;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation
Now, the BIG DIFFERENCE is that Switzerland has a strong (in relative terms when compaired to the Silver Marches) central goverment. The Silver Marches, by contrast, have a VERY WEAK agreement to support each other. I'd guess that Alustriel's goal is to turn the Silver Marches from a weak confederation into a stronger confederation and perhaps, someday, into a federation.
It took Switzerland roughly 550 years to do this and I'm sure it was bloody and painful at times.
So, no, Switzerland is not a confederation.
I'll come back to your other points in a bit.
...then I would suggest you need to find a Dungeon Master who has read the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, or simply become a more well-read Dungeon Master yourself, or exercise an ounce of common sense in selecting which Forgotten Realms novels you choose to read. Because a dozen NPCs, no matter how powerful, are not the axis upon which the campaign world turns, nor are they an impediment to keep it from doing so.
To summarize the initial post of this thread: If you don't like it, you're stupid (or your DM is ... whichever.)
Good thing you made that clear! Ya done learned me!
Honestly, as much as I have enjoyed the Forgotten Realms setting since its inception in 1986, I do have more than a few problems with the most recent incarnation, and yes, some of them involve the oh-so-sacred Mystra's Chosen. Contrary to your initial implications, this is not a reflection of my level of intelligence, my common sense, or my hygiene. My problem, which is not insurmountable, but a simple disagreement with the setup of the campaign, is that such a large proportion of the statted NPC's in the campaign setting are Epic-level characters. The fact that an even larger proportion of those Epic-Level characters are Mystra's Chosen is incidental. If the writers are going to the trouble of statting out a character, it should be a character that has a considerable chance of showing up in the campaign in a combat situation. Statting out Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, etc. takes up a lot of space (whereas in the original setting, IIRC, Khelben (for example) had a one line stat bar which boiled down to "as powerful as you need him to be."
That "complaint", which really isn't much of one, doesn't derail my campaign.
(To add an addenda to earlier posts that were sidetracked with discussions of Driz'zt and how he doesn't match up to the rules, here's some additional thoughts. When the NY Times' favorite Drow first rolled onto the scene, he was made a Ranger because at the time (1st Edition AD&D), Rangers were the only class that could fight with two weapons. Now that anybody and everybody can (and does) do it, making him a Ranger is less important. That's why he has lots more Fighter levels than Ranger. The same goes for his lone Barbarian level: once any old non-barbarian can Rage, he'll lose that too.)
I don't mind intelligent and reasoned debate, but I take offense at having my intelligence insulted within two seconds of opening a topic.
My problem, which is not insurmountable, but a simple disagreement with the setup of the campaign, is that such a large proportion of the statted NPC's in the campaign setting are Epic-level characters. The fact that an even larger proportion of those Epic-Level characters are Mystra's Chosen is incidental.
Hey, I agree there are more stated epic characters in FR than almost anywhere else. Calling them a large proportion on the otherhand is just not true.
I don't have the exact numbers onhand but as long as you don't include dragons bet you couldn't break 50(of both good and evil). Now go back and count the others. All the others. Just a tad bit more huh? Like 10 times more. Just saying.:D
The problem with our two cases is scope. I am not arguing that if bad guy X wants to steal artifact Y, that the Chosen will show up and arrest him. I'm also not arguing that if Bad Guy X wants to set up a slavery ring or smuggling operation that the Chosen will take time to take him down. Or if a Cult sets up operation to sells souls to Devils, that a Chosen will necessarily show up and stop them.
Ah, I see. So there are plenty of things for adventurers to do, just not things powerful and nation-spanning enough to float your boat. Well buddy, if ya want to swim in the pond, learn to play nice or find your own pond. I am truly convinced that this is simply an "I want that!" attitude. I'm sure there are several countries around the world that don't especially appreciate the presence of quite a few 1st worlds sticking their noses around in every pot. Oh well. For the love of IO just remove the Chosen from your games. Heck, say some blightlord got ahold of a spark from Moander and killed them all off with a Chosen specific germ. There, now you can have all the spygames and political plots ya need.
To summarize the initial post of this thread: If you don't like it, you're stupid (or your DM is ... whichever.)
You're suggesting that it's unwise to become well-read? To resist that idea seems foolish and can only lead to ignorance, which doesn't help you or anyone.
Your interpretation of The Simbul's post (and your join date) suggest that you're relatively ignorant to who knows what on these boards. You should be listening to The Simbul, not groping for ways to poke shallow holes in her posts.
To summarize the initial post of this thread: If you don't like it, you're stupid (or your DM is ... whichever.)
Bad summary man, you missed the whole point.
Honestly, as much as I have enjoyed the Forgotten Realms setting since its inception in 1986, I do have more than a few problems with the most recent incarnation, and yes, some of them involve the oh-so-sacred Mystra's Chosen. Contrary to your initial implications, this is not a reflection of my level of intelligence, my common sense, or my hygiene. My problem, which is not insurmountable, but a simple disagreement with the setup of the campaign, is that such a large proportion of the statted NPC's in the campaign setting are Epic-level characters. The fact that an even larger proportion of those Epic-Level characters are Mystra's Chosen is incidental. If the writers are going to the trouble of statting out a character, it should be a character that has a considerable chance of showing up in the campaign in a combat situation. Statting out Elminster, Khelben, the Seven Sisters, etc. takes up a lot of space (whereas in the original setting, IIRC, Khelben (for example) had a one line stat bar which boiled down to "as powerful as you need him to be."
Which is an entirely different complaint to;
"The Realms are broken cause of The Chosen!!!" (or whatever power group you want to use as an example)
Which is the complaint the Simbul is speaking to, not a complaint about "The space used to stat these NPCs would be much better used for lore"
I don't mind intelligent and reasoned debate, but I take offense at having my intelligence insulted within two seconds of opening a topic.
Which you weren't. If you were claiming the Realms are broken because of the stated NPCs then you would be the target of this rant.
Ah, I see. So there are plenty of things for adventurers to do, just not things powerful and nation-spanning enough to float your boat. Well buddy, if ya want to swim in the pond, learn to play nice or find your own pond. I am truly convinced that this is simply an "I want that!" attitude. I'm sure there are several countries around the world that don't especially appreciate the presence of quite a few 1st worlds sticking their noses around in every pot. Oh well. For the love of IO just remove the Chosen from your games. Heck, say some blightlord got ahold of a spark from Moander and killed them all off with a Chosen specific germ. There, now you can have all the spygames and political plots ya need.
So you believe its unreasonable to expect a setting to allow political and high level intrigue plots in its core areas (for the FR, that being the central and northern regions that recieve most of the attention in books and gaming products) and that if we wish that, we should go elsewhere? That seems the definition of a broken or unbalanced gaming world.
I am glad, though, that some people are at least willing to concede that the Chosen do close off a large number of potential hooks, particularly those that don't involve evil skulking around in the sewers.
In response to Crust's post above, the Simbul's initial post is very condescending. The designers of the game don't even completely agree with her given the disclaimer that appears in the FRCS. It is not foolish or simple-minded to believe that the Chosen play too large of a role in the Realms and I don't feel Simbul's interpretation is anymore valid than my own. Furthermore, judging someone by their join date is ridiculous. My join date is "only" 2004 (though I had to recreate my account for some reason and re-join), so I assume my opinions are far less valid than someone who joined in 2003 or before.
So you believe its unreasonable to expect a setting to allow political and high level intrigue plots in its core areas (for the FR, that being the central and northern regions that recieve most of the attention in books and gaming products) and that if we wish that, we should go elsewhere? That seems the definition of a broken or unbalanced gaming world.
Well ya see, thats the rub. FR does allow just what you want. You just want it for free. Who do you think was doing the high level intrigue before you got there. Should they just go poof now?
Congratulations Tiamat2!
you have been awarded the central heartlands so you can be the center of not only your own attention but everyone elses. If you want to be in the FR, deal with the FR. If you don't want to deal, make it Tiamat2's FR and kill them off. As I said, your own pond. Many examples have been given and over and over your responses are things like..
Perhaps I simply prefer a dystopian view, where the players are actually necessary to a grander story than just tiny cogs in a great "goodness" machine.
Well I'll tell you what, I'll ring Eric, Krash and all the rest and let them know to hold that next article. You want necessity rather than cogness. They will be awaiting your transcripts so they can get to writing. Argh. Life is what is around you, not you. Learn it now or learn it later, I don't care a bit. But I do hate to see others
when they don't seem to deserve it. And I don't think you deserve it.;)One more point. This is not meant with bile or spite of any kind.
That seems the definition of a broken or unbalanced gaming world.
No, that means you are either unable or unwilling to do the work it takes to get to the point you want. I've been gaming for close to 30 years and DMing in the FR for 15. All these things you want to do are very possible if you would get off the Kick-the-Chosen bandwagon. Keep getting in their faces and you reap their wrath. Do a Sarya and you might just get your groove on. But of course, you have made it very clear that's not what you want. You want what they have. Oh well. Good luck, and I truly mean that.
But I do hate to see others
Awww, you're so sweet Bren
That seems the definition of a broken or unbalanced gaming world.
Actually, it seems like what you want is more of a broken game world: one in which adventurers exist within a vacuum of supposed importance, and if they were removed, the world would collapse into despair and darkness. That's not how FR works. It's not Dragonlance.
I think we're on the same page in that respect, just our reactions to this status quo are different.
Actually, it seems like what you want is more of a broken game world: one in which adventurers exist within a vacuum of supposed importance, and if they were removed, the world would collapse into despair and darkness. That's not how FR works. It's not Dragonlance.
No, what I want is a game world that is more open and balanced. Where incredibly powerful, good-aligned NPC's don't dominate most of the documented parts of the map and where evil and aggression aren't relegated to the sewers or Underdark. Can I create that world on my own? Yes, if I concede that I'm going to be paying for books and then only using the little bits of them that don't involve the Chosen or the Chosen's effects on the world. What bothers me is the Simbul and others acting as though the perception that the Chosen are too omni-present is faulty. It can't be that faulty if the designers, themselves, address it in some detail in the FRCS.
Edit: Also, did you mean "that's not even Dragonlance?" I'm not sure what your point was there.
Awww, you're so sweet Bren
Tell anyone and I'll change your legs into crabclaws.
That's not how FR works. It's not Dragonlance.
Ouch. Im not sure how it is correctly put but +1 for Dan.:D
You can't run most kinds of mid to high level political/intrigue campaigns in the areas I've listed without either retconning the Chosen out or unrealistically portraying them as inactive.
No, I say you can. You just have to be good at it. If you want to storm into Shadowdale you best be Epic. Now if you were to convince(actually convince, not enspell) the folk of Shadowdale that your side is right, now thats a whole different matter. To put it simply, your actually going to have to play some politics, not just roll some dice. Now it all rests upon the DM. Thats where it all lies. Thats where it always lies. Not in novels that were never meant to be gaming material. Not in statblocks that seem to be read 30times as often as the legends behind the characters. With the DM. I've done it without making the Chosen imbecils or retconning. I know of 3 other DM's who also have. Matter of fact I never heard of Chosen-envy until I came to these boards. Once again, No-One said inactive. They just stated that your characters aren't worth the Chosen's time unless they run up screaming Baeioutch! or start slaying dalesmen wholesale. It's just not a black and white world. Matter of fact, Black and White don't even exist. They are for the outsiders. Still, quit with the
. It hurts even through the internet.;)In response to Crust's post above, the Simbul's initial post is very condescending. The designers of the game don't even completely agree with her given the disclaimer that appears in the FRCS. It is not foolish or simple-minded to believe that the Chosen play too large of a role in the Realms and I don't feel Simbul's interpretation is anymore valid than my own.
Yippie. You have your opinion.
It's based on falsehoods and a murky understanding of Faerun. The proof is in your posts, doggedly insisting that the Silver Marches are ruled by Alustriel and Waterdeep is ruled by Chosen... Madness. With that in mind, your opinion becomes invalid. Any opinion that contradicts data is invalid. As The Simbul suggests, you should brush up on your reading. I know it stinks to hear, and it's impossible to think that you'll actually take sound advice on an anonymous message board, but there it is.As for the join date, that wasn't directed at you. I'm sure you noticed that. Also, it's not only his join date that suggests his ignorance. It's his post as well.
Once again, No-One said inactive. They just stated that your characters aren't worth the Chosen's time unless they run up screaming Baeioutch! or start slaying dalesmen wholesale.
Ah, so what you're saying is that campaigns set in the Chosen's core areas HAVE to involve the Chosen and that if players or the villains in campaigns do things that would attract the Chosen's attention, then the Chosen would flatten them unless they are very subtle or skulking in the shadows.
For some reason that point seems familiar.
Also, I don't envy the Chosen. I don't lust after their power for either my PC's or my NPC's. I'm firmly in the anti-epic camp in terms of campaign design. I dislike the Chosen, because they present what I believe to be an unnecessary obstacle to story and hook design within the Realms. You either have to ignore them (and the source material that covers them, which is most of the Realms material available now) or use them, and both options are silly.
The proof is in your posts, doggedly insisting that the Silver Marches are ruled by Alustriel and Waterdeep is ruled by Chosen... Madness. With that in mind, your opinion becomes invalid. Any opinion that contradicts data is invalid.
I don't think arguing that the Chosen rule in the Silver Marches contradicts any data(the head of the Silver Marches is Alustriel, that is the definition of ruling even if you wish to quibble over how much power she has; Elizabeth II rules in the United Kingdom, even if she has no power, but I don't think a reasonable interpretation of the Silver Marches puts Alustriel in the powerless figurehead category). As for Waterdeep, I own the sourcebook and I have the misfortunate of having read it. If you believe that Waterdeep, through that sourcebook, is free from Chosen influence, that's fine. I believe its just as valid to argue that the Chosen wield great political power in Waterdeep's political system.
So, Brennon, your point is the same as mine, right? You can't run most kinds of mid to high level political/intrigue campaigns in the areas I've listed without either retconning the Chosen out or unrealistically portraying them as inactive.
I really don't see why these options are such a problem. Either do it, or find another campaign.
Is there an echo in here?
What bothers me is the Simbul and others acting as though the perception that the Chosen are too omni-present is faulty.
It's not just faulty, it's a complete fantasy.
You're speculating on what adventurous/political/mercantile/military life in the Realms is like, specifically that the Chosen are usually involved, though how that's possible, you still haven't explained.
We don't need to speculate, as we have very good cross-sectional examples to refer to:
the current clack in the 1987 and 1993 campaign sets, Polyhedron, FA1, FR11, etc.
the Harper's year in FOR2 The Code of the Harpers
the descriptions and examples of government, trade, etc. in Power of Faerûn
the short adventures in FR1 Waterdeep and the North and Ruins of Undermountain
the accounts of attempts to gain control of various holy books in Prayers from the Faithful
the accounts of the doings of various Magisters in Secrets of the Magister
Ed Greenwood and The Hooded One's accounts of play in the Knights of Myth Drannor campaign, posted to Candlekeep.com
City of Splendors: A Waterdeep Novel
The Realms is not an empty map to place dungeons, or simple isolated campaigns against some simple 'evil' with no one else getting involved, like an instanced MMORPG quest, but an active, populated world of many people pursuing their own ends and inevitably coming into contact with player characters.
The composite picture is a web of interrelated intrigues catalysed by events such as discoveries and sudden actions following periods of information gathering. Far from human habitation the web is simple: adventurers delving a tomb might be opposed by a rival band, and agents of one or two local organizations in the nearest settlement. In Shadowdale or Waterdeep the web gets extremely complex and knotty, with the campaigns of multiple power groups intersecting each other in infiltration, double bluff, sabotage, violence, magical eavesdropping, calling on allies and manipulating enemies.
Of these specifically described events and intrigues -- examples of the hundreds or thousands that go on each day in the Heartlands -- most have nothing to do with the Chosen of Mystra, as anyone who reads the listed sources can see.
If the templates of all the chosen(mystra and otherwise) are diferent, why do they have the same stat(+4)?
Where can i find info about the spectral harpist(sylune current state)?
So if mystra created the chosen to be fractions of her divinity, so that when occasion rises, they can be used, what was their use in the Time of Troubles?
So if mystra created the chosen to be fractions of her divinity, so that when occasion rises, they can be used, what was their use in the Time of Troubles?
Did you read the ToT novels? If you have I hope you know the answer to that question. If not I will have to leave the response to someone else as it is my birthday and I'm going to go get some steak.:D
SWLL all. GBE
And no, Chosen don't just go blasting people who disagree with them at the first sign of dissent or opposition, otherwise they're no better than the Zhents or Red Wizards. You can indeed use that to your advantage if you're willing to use a little imagination.
By the by, Happy Birthday Bren, hope you have a good day.
Happy Birthday.
Thanks Alediran. :D
Thanks Alediran. :D
You're really taking your time getting that steak.
I'll wish you a happy birthday as well, even though I didn't understand your last post about/to me.
If in FRCS elsminster is a wiz20/archm5/epic4/cle3/fit2/rog1 and plus chosen(+4) why is his CR of 45?
If the templates of all the chosen(mystra and otherwise) are diferent, why do they have the same stat(+4)?
Where can i find info about the spectral harpist(sylune current state)?
So if mystra created the chosen to be fractions of her divinity, so that when occasion rises, they can be used, what was their use in the Time of Troubles?
Shrug, as amusing as some of the earlier comments about research are. One of the more important roles of the Chosen was not within the Avatar series but rather Shadows of Avatar. Elminster played temporary container of a large degree of a Mystra's power while she sought a successor. He also held a large amount of inormation that was passed onto Midnight well at least up until AO decided to lock them away because he didn't want Mystra coming into her power too early. Shrug, well that and the whole handling of some creature, a Thayan wanted to use to eat Hoar but that was more an asignment from AO then responsibility as a Chosen of Mystra.
Other than that, most of what is shown tends to be more mortal affairs than divine but El was always sort of a First among equals within the Chosen not that Mystra will ever admit to that.
Except of course for the fact that they are not omnipresent. They're not omni-anything. Nine Hells, their primary jobs are advancing magical research, spreading magic, and protecting the Weave, not foiling random villains! It always has been, and always will be. Just because the novels they show up in show them as the heroes doesn't mean thats why they exist. They act as heroes in the novels because, surprise surprise, they're the protagonists of those novels and thus acting as heroes in the events those portray. Novels showing them researching spells, teaching students, or pouring over tomes wouldn't sell - no conflict - so they're not written. But that, plus protecting the Weave and doing errands for Mystra, is what most of them do most of the time.
Zevox
Perfect, Zevox! The Chosen of Mystra are not universal soldiers of good. They're protectors of the Weave.
I guess that is when they aren't busy beating your PCs to all of the cats stuck in trees around the realms, they have time for that.
Wait no, that child is going to drop yon cup, oh phew Elminster got it again. Thanks, El.
Man, boy do I feel bad for Elminster and Storm if their days are filled with stopping shady business deals, how many of those take place a day in Faerun, 1 million or 2 million?
I guess that is when they aren't busy beating your PCs to all of the cats stuck in trees around the realms, they have time for that.
Wait no, that child is going to drop yon cup, oh phew Elminster got it again. Thanks, El.
And people considered my posts hyperbole. This is another example of a straw man argument. No one on either side was claiming that the Chosen intervened in everything.
Nope, Harper agents are treated just like Zhents or Red Wizards in the Reach. The people of the Reach govern themselves, not some jumped up bards and woodsfolk from the backward parts of the Realms.
Harpers (and Zhents and Red Wizards) should be working far more subtly than that. I doubt any of those organisations, if they had a genuine interest in the region, would work openly. After all, the Harpers don't work openly in those regions where they accepted (albeit that they only ever seem to be accepted grudgingly due to their reputation as meddlers).
Harpers don't get to do much work in the entirety of the Reach really.
That anyone knows of.
Hiring the PCs might work out, but if their connections to the Harpers are exposed then they can expect some quick banishment.
Hmm... Well the PCs may not even know they're working for the Harpers. Remember, wheels within wheels, layers upon layers.
Oh, most certainly, that's exactly how I envision it. Except the Chosen still can't be everywhere at once and most people don't want to be puppets on a string.
Exactly on the former. On the latter, well if your PCs don't know who they're working for, and then find out - you can expect some will be unhappy.
(After all, there's a reason we're having this discussion.)Eh, I don't use the Chosen much at all, they have a large network of informers, they try to influence events in subtle ways (mostly through the selection of agents though, they may want an agent to go about something a certain way but things usually don't work out like that *g*)
All things in moderation. I'm not really trying to advocate using the Chosen in every single plot in your game. Subtle and sparing is the best approach.
And ToT proved that something is not right with the chosen, since mystra didnt pick any of them as her heir(wich would make sense since they are use to handling great responsabilities with the weave, and are better prepared that other mortals).
Isn't this exactly the point I've been trying to make? That the Chosen have their fingers in an awful lot of pies? That the Realms forces you to consider how the Chosen are involved in almost every hook, particularly those hooks that take place in the regions where the Chosen are most active (which, to repeat myself, are the regions most heavily covered by the source material)?
Yes, it is, I suppose. But you seem to have a problem with that, whereas I don't. Maybe it's because I have a great deal of affection for the Seven Sisters, given that they are pretty much the strongest female characters you're going to find anywhere in a Fantasy game setting.
As I have been saying, if you don't like the fact that they seem to have their fingerprints on everything, do something to limit them or mitigate their activities. If you're a DM, then I'm certian you're more than capable of doing that.
Heya,
Harpers (and Zhents and Red Wizards) should be working far more subtly than that. I doubt any of those organisations, if they had a genuine interest in the region, would work openly. After all, the Harpers don't work openly in those regions where they accepted (albeit that they only ever seem to be accepted grudgingly due to their reputation as meddlers).
Most certainly! But they still don't enjoy any sort of popular support, any writing they send home, or any communication in general, is likely to be easedropped on and your not just contending with some backwards nation, your talkin the Merchant Princes of Turmish (You know them Sembians? They're closer to Turamis than the Chondathans, though the Turami are generally nicer) and most of the guard types you encounter are likely to have been blooded in Chessenta. That's not even mentioning the Emerald Enclave!
No my friend, while Those Who Harp are great at what they do they are to different to go unnoticed and they're not dealing with amatures
(The next stop on the overland trade route from Alaghon is Hlondeth! You've gotta be savy to deal with the snakes
)That anyone knows of.
It's certainly possible that there are agents in Turmish. . . I don't see it likely that they are privy to too much information though, nor that they'd have the ability to gain that information when Hlondeth and Arrabar have failed
Hmm... Well the PCs may not even know they're working for the Harpers. Remember, wheels within wheels, layers upon layers.
I ALWAYS remember the wheels and layers, that's how I think.
(Remember, it's always best when performing a crime to set someone up for it while you go about things. If done right then nothing ever comes of it but if you have a diligent investigator they're likely to take the easiest evidence and go after those you've framed.
)All things in moderation. I'm not really trying to advocate using the Chosen in every single plot in your game. Subtle and sparing is the best approach.
Like I said, I'm not a fan of using them, this is more than a little bit because I don't feel I'd do them justice but mostly because, well, I want to run MY characters that I've made.
So Els got to play the guardian of power for mystra, ...but what for, if she got herself killed by helm? So that the weave could work? So why didn't the other gods had holders of power like so? was there a similar guy doing the same for toth? or Isis? I got to admit that the reason of the chosen existence as containers of mystra power doesn't makes any sense(to me at least).
Bane had the Baneson, Iyachtu Xvim. Bhaal had the Bhaalspawn. Those are the two obvious examples. Others have not been disclosed as far as I can tell, but the sorts like Bane and Bhaal had the greatest likelihood of facing rivals (both good, neutral, and evil), so they needed insurance policies more than anyone.
And ToT proved that something is not right with the chosen, since mystra didn't pick any of them as her heir(which would make sense since they are use to handling great responsibilities with the weave, and are better prepared that other mortals).
Well, Ed has said all of them are a little messed up in the head. This is supported in numerous references and hints. One that I recently read is the Srinshee admitting she has, at times, acted like a villain in the name of "good" in the short story Tears So White. Perhaps there is a little bit of Karsus' attitude in all of them.
So Els got to play the guardian of power for mystra, ...but what for, if she got herself killed by helm? So that the weave could work? So why didnt the other gods had holders of power like so? was there a similar guy doing the same for toth? or Isis? I got to admit that the reason of the chosen existance as containers of mystra power doesnt makes any sense(to me at least).
And ToT proved that something is not right with the chosen, since mystra didnt pick any of them as her heir(wich would make sense since they are use to handling great responsabilities with the weave, and are better prepared that other mortals).
El was playing guardian because Mystra predicted her own death. Isis having predicted zilch as far as anyone knows had no reason to set up contingencies other than sheer paranoia and that isn't a proven trait of hers. As for why none of the Chosen were made divinities. Admittedly most deal in more power than Midnight did but similarly most were more occupied than Midnight. Keeping occupied agents in place while shifting someone else up was risky but since the plan involved El transferring centuries worth of knowledge that Mystra considered relevant to Midnight and with Azuth's aid guiding her into her role, it was a controlled risk. El wouldn't willingly take the job. Khelben's task had been in motion for centuries. Alustriel is a key figure in the North, Quilue serves another divinity, Laeral would eventually be having the first children (known) of two Chosen. Pulling any Chosen could provide unforeseen problems.
So that the weave could work? So why didnt the other gods had holders of power like so?
Perhaps to avoid disaster if her uniquely great power fell into unable hands, or because the Weave is in some mysterious way fundamental to the structure of Toril.
I got to admit that the reason of the chosen existance as containers of mystra power doesnt makes any sense(to me at least).
"[D]ivine affairs are beyond the understanding of mortals, and are best left that way". Cosmic mysteries don't have pat answers, but you'd understand better through reading Shadows of Doom, The Seven Sisters, and Ed's commentaries, rather than our piecemeal, second-hand explanations.
And ToT proved that something is not right with the chosen, since mystra didnt pick any of them as her heir
Something is indeed not right with them, as has been said. On the other hand, no more than Tantras proves that Storm can't see further than the end of her nose.
If in FRCS elsminster is a wiz20/archm5/epic4/cle3/fit2/rog1 and plus chosen(+4) why is his CR of 45?
If the templates of all the chosen(mystra and otherwise) are diferent, why do they have the same stat(+4)?
Where can i find info about the spectral harpist(sylune current state)?
So if mystra created the chosen to be fractions of her divinity, so that when occasion rises, they can be used, what was their use in the Time of Troubles?
It's actually a typo. In latter publications of the FRCS, its listed as 39.
On the other hand, no more than Tantras proves that Storm can't see further than the end of her nose.
Despite the fact that I know Storm isn't quite right in the head, I always thought that Storm was acting quite out of character in that particular section of the ToT novels (if it is the one I'm thinking of)... But that might just be me being a touch biased.
(Storm's my favorite. :D )You're suggesting that it's unwise to become well-read? To resist that idea seems foolish and can only lead to ignorance, which doesn't help you or anyone.
Your interpretation of The Simbul's post (and your join date) suggest that you're relatively ignorant to who knows what on these boards. You should be listening to The Simbul, not groping for ways to poke shallow holes in her posts.
As to the first: No, you obviously misread my post.
As to the second:
Your interpretation of The Simbul's post (and your join date) suggest that you're relatively ignorant to who knows what on these boards.
Ah ... my join date. And my need to know "who knows what". So which is more important? If I hang out for a few years, does that make me cool? Or do I just need to kiss enough backside to be accepted into the club? Will I then get the list of "who knows what"?
On to matters at hand... I think by join date Crust is presuming that you don't have the indepth knowledge of the Realms that others have r6art. I'm not sure where Crust came to that conclusion reading your previous post, as it seemed a valid observation, though one I don't happen to agree with (I'm a big fan of Epic :D ). Ultimately that's a matter of personal taste more than anything else, but you seemed to understand that concept pretty well, so... However, I can't say I see the reasoning behind your taking exception to the tone of Simbul's opening post either. I can't say I found it insulting, honestly, and I doubt it was intended that way, from what I've observed about Simbul's posting style (read more like exasperation with certain elements of the community to me). But then again, I do my best to take what other people post in the best possible light when I can, and try to avoid making assumptions about tone due to the inherent vagueness of internet communication.
As to the Chosen not being right in the head, I've never thought of them that way. I just kinda figured that after 680+ years they'd have a very different way of looking at the world that most 'mortals' just wouldn't get. Perhaps it would seem a bit odd to others, but fairly normal within their own context... perspective colors the world we live in and how we interact with it afterall, and those years would certainly give one a very different perspective.
As to the first: No, you obviously misread my post.
I don't misread posts, r6art. It's amusing how you just assume that I did when there's really no evidence to suggest that. Your tone was clear, and your misunderstanding of the OP is crystal clear. There was nothing insulting about The Simbul's OP. If anyone was insulted, then that person should look inward and think about why.
Ah ... my join date. And my need to know "who knows what". So which is more important? If I hang out for a few years, does that make me cool? Or do I just need to kiss enough backside to be accepted into the club? Will I then get the list of "who knows what"?
I don't know how coolness and kissing backsides has anything to do with the discussion or the understanding of the OP. If you had any experience at all on these boards, you'd know that The Simbul knows what she's talking about. If you manage to stick around, you'll eventually see what I mean, assuming your sole purpose here isn't flaming and causing disruptions.
As to the Chosen not being right in the head, I've never thought of them that way. I just kinda figured that after 680+ years they'd have a very different way of looking at the world that most 'mortals' just wouldn't get. Perhaps it would seem a bit odd to others, but fairly normal within their own context... perspective colors the world we live in and how we interact with it afterall, and those years would certainly give one a very different perspective.
Ed's said that the Chosen are quite insane a number of times that I've seen over at Candlekeep.
It largely has to do with how long they've lived (though, I would have thought that the Seven Sisters might be a little more resistant to going cuckoo since they're technically not mortals to begin with, being Mystra's daughters... but I'm not going to gainsay Ed on this, even if I tweak things a little in "my version of the Realms"). In any event, I think those elevated to Chosen status more recently (the previous Magister, for instance) wouldn't be quite as unhinged - if not still perfectly sane.And personally, I tend to avoid Ed's replies more often than not, I kinda prefer making that crap up myself... the whole Candlekeep thing being a pain in the arse to dig through to find anything part has nothing to do with it of course. :D
Crust, I don't wish to get into an infantile argument with you, but yes, you did misread my post. You also seem to think that time spent on your precious boards is the only source for knowledge concerning D&D or the Realms. I have been playing this game for 27 years, since 1980, and first began playing in the FR setting in 1987, right after it was introduced. While I may not be living it in place of my real life, I still know a few things. Is "The Simbul" the end all and be all of Knowledge on the boards? Sure. For all I know, its Ed Greenwood in disguise. However, I did take exception to the initial post. That may not have been the intent, but that was the way I read it.
You're suggesting that it's unwise to become well-read? To resist that idea seems foolish and can only lead to ignorance, which doesn't help you or anyone.
Your interpretation of The Simbul's post (and your join date) suggest that you're relatively ignorant to who knows what on these boards. You should be listening to The Simbul, not groping for ways to poke shallow holes in her posts.
Excuse me that I join in and quote on this one so lately, but I have to say this is what my complaints earlier on in this thread were all about and it makes me
!How dare you critizising someone for having a young join date, and wanting to kill his statement with it??!!
And the sentence "who knows what on these boards" seems to me more like territorial ******* than an adequate reaction to a statement.
Don't want to bring the short discussion of before up again, so believe me I know it's not easy beeing confronted with statements that perhaps in your opinion are not valid. But you are overreacting and you are so much in love with your own intellect, that you don't even try to argue fairly with everyone.
I apologize if anything I posted was upsetting to anyone. Stigger, thank you for pointing that out.
Meh, it wasn't that bad. Had some good points you did.;)
Crust, I don't wish to get into an infantile argument with you, but yes, you did misread my post. You also seem to think that time spent on your precious boards is the only source for knowledge concerning D&D or the Realms. I have been playing this game for 27 years, since 1980, and first began playing in the FR setting in 1987, right after it was introduced. While I may not be living it in place of my real life, I still know a few things. Is "The Simbul" the end all and be all of Knowledge on the boards? Sure. For all I know, its Ed Greenwood in disguise. However, I did take exception to the initial post. That may not have been the intent, but that was the way I read it.
Now this is bad. Bad bad r6art. Insulting the Crust just gets lava from the mantle all over ya. Here, take my ring of elemental immunity. It is still gonna sting quite a bit.;)
Perhaps to avoid disaster if her uniquely great power fell into unable hands, or because the Weave is in some mysterious way fundamental to the structure of Toril.-The same could be said about any other great deity.
"[D]ivine affairs are beyond the understanding of mortals, and are best left that way". Cosmic mysteries don't have pat answers, but you'd understand better through reading Shadows of Doom, The Seven Sisters, and Ed's commentaries, rather than our piecemeal, second-hand explanations.Something is indeed not right with them, as has been said.- Or author bad ideas are beyond understanding of readers, and since there's no explanation, it's a cosmic enigma.
Bottom line is: there's no explanation to this issues other than theories.Out of nine or plus chosen, not a single one of then was fit to take the role of deity of magic( and no, no job the current chosen do is more important that being the deity of magic).
I apologize if anything I posted was upsetting to anyone. Stigger, thank you for pointing that out.
Crust, I don't wish to get into an infantile argument with you, but yes, you did misread my post. You also seem to think that time spent on your precious boards is the only source for knowledge concerning D&D or the Realms. I have been playing this game for 27 years, since 1980, and first began playing in the FR setting in 1987, right after it was introduced. While I may not be living it in place of my real life, I still know a few things. Is "The Simbul" the end all and be all of Knowledge on the boards? Sure. For all I know, its Ed Greenwood in disguise. However, I did take exception to the initial post. That may not have been the intent, but that was the way I read it.
If you consider yourself well-read in FR lore, I don't see how you could be insulted by the OP. In fact, judging by your last post, you could be very well-read in FR lore. With that in mind, I'd expect one to be vindicated by the OP, not insulted.
I don't misread posts, r6art. It's amusing how you just assume that I did when there's really no evidence to suggest that. Your tone was clear, and your misunderstanding of the OP is crystal clear. There was nothing insulting about The Simbul's OP. If anyone was insulted, then that person should look inward and think about why.
The Simbul's original post was clearly intended to be somewhat condescending. Whether or not it has any malicious intent is up for debate, but the Original Poster derided an entire group of players and DM's as being ignorant if they thought the Chosen were over-done in the setting's source material. As I've pointed out repeatedly, the view that the Chosen constrict campaign options by their presence, their power, and their numbers is supported by the FRCS' making comments on how to leave the Chosen out of your campaign. The gaming materials and the novels overemphasize the Chosen (and the gaming materials semi-admit it), so you can't say that people who are uncomfortable with that over-emphasis have an invalid point of view (and that's exactly what the original post says).
And towards the end of this discussion several people who defended the original post seem to have come to the same conclusion that those of us who disagreed with it have come to: many campaign hooks require you to consider the Chosen or to unrealistically ignore them or portray them as unrealistically inactive. The Simbul's post says that making the Chosen inactive or destroying them is never necessary. That simply isn't true. I won't rehash all the plot-lines and hooks I've listed that are precluded by the Chosen, but only point that the later posts in this thread seem to have built a marginal consensus that if you want to do certain things, you'll have to involve the Chosen. And that's what many of us don't want to do . . . ever.
No worries r6art, more than happy to if it avoids starting the fires up, I didn't take offense or get upset at all. I usually don't come to think of it, even if its directed at me... most of the time. :D
Bottom line is: there's no explanation to this issues other than theories.Out of nine or plus chosen, not a single one of then was fit to take the role of deity of magic( and no, no job the current chosen do is more important that being the deity of magic).
See, this shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the Chosen and their Goddess. There are several things more important than who holds the reins. What use is holding a rein linked to nothing. Kel had something much more important to do. Something connected to multiple Gods and 10's of thousands of souls. An entire elven realm at that. He was a Chosen. He was an "elf". He was the key to the Pentad's plans. He was the father of the first Chosen Squared. Guess those kids, that realm, those Gods, that race would just have to grin and bare it because Mystra wanted Her successor to be "up to speed". Gawds people. Mystra has never acted like the pissy little Kid you all seem to think She is. Let's all just take a deep breath and realize that there are things(and Folk) who are smarter, wiser, ballsier, and yes, loonier than we can grasp as mortals. If you can't grasp this point then why even care? Let me put it this way, there are no agnostics in the realms. They know. Sorry for the rant. It's just my ancient age creeping upon me.
If you consider yourself well-read in FR lore, I don't see how you could be insulted by the OP. In fact, judging by your last post, you could be very well-read in FR lore. With that in mind, I'd expect one to be vindicated by the OP, not insulted.
See, now that is the beginning of a discussion! If you don't see how I was insulted, then it is incumbent upon me to explain.
The first point was in the topic title "If mystra's Chosen are a problem for .....(etc.)". I had actually been mulling over that very thing (the presence of so many Epic level characters in FR) in the past few days, and was curious as to the other opinions out there, so I looked ... that was the "Bait".
On reading the first post, I immediately felt that the entire thing had been what I would consider to be trolling. The "Bait" draws folks in, while the post is actually quite the opposite, and quite brutal. In my interpretation, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the initial paragraph says, essentially "If you have (this problem), then you (or your DM) haven't read enough/aren't smart enough/etc. and are wrong if you disagree."
There were several excellent points made in the initial post, and in subsequent posts by others, but that doesn't change the trolling nature of the first. Unfortunately, I was so disgusted by the trolling, and the rah-rah cheerleading that followed, that I felt compelled to respond ... and I didn't even have the problem that was being addressed. That's the biggest problem I have with online communities (and this is otherwise an excellent source of information, interpretation and second opinions): because it's online, not face-to-face, people feel more free to blitz someone, rather that talk to them (and yes, I'm aware that I'm guilty of that as well).
The Simbul's original post was clearly intended to be somewhat condescending.
I would call it a challenge, not condescension. Then again when you actually do the research and have the facts laid out before you, looking down isn't a choice, its the only way to see some of the folk your talking to.;)
Huh. I guess I don't know what trolls are. ;) Guess I better go get my Monster Manual...
The first post is an example of trolling?
Huh. I guess I don't know what trolls are. ;) Guess I better go get my Monster Manual...
If someone posted the opposite as a subject heading: "Why Mystra and her Chosen should be removed from the Realms", I am certain you would consider that trolling.
Perhaps because it offered a reasoned arguement rather than inflammatory rhetoric?
But it was ultimately a false argument. The Simbul argued that 9 NPC's shouldn't effect what you do in your campaign. The original post clearly states that you shouldn't need to delete the Chosen or make them unrealistically inactive in order to do whatever you wanted in the Realms, because the Realms is so big that the Chosen can't be everywhere.
That argument is a fallacy. Certainly, if you want to set your campaign in Dambrath, you can safely ignore the Chosen. If you want your campaign to involve shop-lifting on the streets of Waterdeep, you can ignore the Chosen. Its not necessary to kill them or to strip them of their power or whatever to make such a hook believable.
But if you want to overthrow Tethyr's nascent monarchy or scheme in Waterdeep's political morass or destabilize the Silver Marches, or set anything particularly threatening or political in the central and northern parts of Faerun, then you have to come up with an explanation as to why the Chosen arent' intervening. In other words, if you want that type of campaign to take place in the most detailed areas of the Realms AND you don't want to involve the Chosen, you have to delete them or make up some ridiculous reason that they are inactive. The Simbul's post says exactly the opposite.
The original post says we are not restrained by the Chosen in creating campaigns and hooks. But we are, unless we delete them or make them inactive. Are we free to do that? Yes. But we're not ignorant of Realms material (which Simbul accuses us of being) if we feel that is a necessity.
many campaign hooks require you to consider the Chosen.
I'll use a cheff's analogy for this:
If you don't have the time or patience to work with the piece of cow you have, and instead you cut big parts of the meat to avoid the "difficult" task of separating it directly from the bone you are loosing money.
The same applies for the Chosen. What would you preffer, a political campaign where your players become the heads of the Silver Marches because Alustriel wasn't there or a political campaign where your players become the heads of the Silver Marches even with her on the picture? It doesn't matter your player's love or hate of the chosen, if they beat one (fighting is not the only option) they will have a bigger feeling of acomplishment. At least my players have more fun when the fish is big and difficult to catch.
Well... not exactly. We don't see the Chosen stepping up to stop Inselm Hhume. We don't see the Chosen reacting to the Unseen's infiltration of the Lords of Waterdeep. We don't see the Chosen reacting the Xanathar's attempts to do the same. We don't see them stepping in to stop the Hosttowers attempts to destabilize the Silver Marches with Thayan drugs. We don't see them getting actively involved in the Harper Schism. We don't see them doing much overtly about Skullport beyond keeping an eye on it. We don't see them doing a lot of things that you seem to think they could and would be doing... Sorry, but I don't think your arguement holds water if you actually take a decent look at the printed material with something approximating a dispassionate eye.
But if those plots do come close to fruition, don't you think the Chosen would step in and stop them? If a plot has no chance of success without eliminating the Chosen, then in my mind its precluded by the presence of the Chosen, even if you could do many things in that plot before the Chosen get realistically involved. If you are starting a hook that doesn't require your players to finish it because the Chosen necessarily will stand against it at some point at the end (or after the scheme has been successful), then I don't see the point.
If I were designing a villain similar to the Unseen, the Arcane Brotherhood, or Inselm and the Knights of the Shield, I would have to think about at what point the Chosen would become involved. Because they are going to become involved if those villains get close to success or if those villains manage to succeed. And that's my main point: you have to take the Chosen into account when creating those kind of stories. You have to invent that reason for inactivity or a reason the Chosen are gone. That contradicts the Simbul's original post.
Also, this post seems to contradict your 9:02 AM post which I thought supported my point, but that's a minor detail I guess.
Insanity is in the eye of the beholder, and what constitutes it changes fairly frequently, as societies go anyway. ;)
Hmm... yes, that's a pretty good point. However, the insanity of the Chosen mostly has to do with how long they've lived. Many of them have seen more than one empire/kingdom fall/fail, and pretty much all of them have outlived loved ones.
The thing I've never really understood about Ed's take though is, as I've mentioned before, why the Seven Sisters and the elven Chosen might be subject to this same level of insanity. Elves are effectively immortal, and the Seven Sisters are literally Mystra's daughters. While I do agree that a typical human's mind is probably not up to the task of accepting immortality, I'd imagine those people/creatures who are built to last forever would be much more able to handle the toll living forever might take on their mind. (Of course, I'm not arguing against the idea that they might seem insane to those who only live to be in their late double digits - that's a different matter all together!)
So while your human wizard who extends her life through longevity magic, or becomes undead (which can be traumatic enough in and of itself to make a person insane anyway), or gets Chosen by a deity who grants them immortality might go insane after a couple of hundred years* - an elf or the child of a deity would still be in their prime, and would be in their prime for quite some time to come.
And personally, I tend to avoid Ed's replies more often than not, I kinda prefer making that crap up myself... the whole Candlekeep thing being a pain in the arse to dig through to find anything part has nothing to do with it of course. :D
Awww. He's good value, really.
But I can understand where you're coming from - I kind of drift in and out of there, to the point where I missed out on some of his answers to my questions (until I was fortunate enought to stumble across them elsewhere and head back to specifically look for them).* If I were a deity, and I was going to depend on a mortal to be my Chosen... I'd insure that their sanity would remain intact - and if it did come to pass that I forsaw that they would go incurably insane in my service, I'd stop it before it got to that point, and Choose someone else.
Were they as omnipotent and omniscient as you seem to think, would the Arcane Brotherhood, Knights of the Shield, Unseen, Xanathar, Shadow Thieves, or any other evil power group even still exist? Or be half as successful as they are?
And its not contradictory, if you're referring to the post I think you are, it's simply offerring alternatives for how to handle things. There are plenty of ways you can approach things depending on the style you might prefer.
Zandilar, I've never gotten the whole insane thing myself. From what I recall of clerical spells, a quick fix is a simple Heal spell away, though I'll admit I'm a bit rusty on cleric spells. Totally with you as far as the Seven weathering centuries better than 'mere mortals' though. The whole divine birth thing seems remarkably underplayed to me in a lot of respects, at least as far as how they handle the weight of years.
Ah ... my join date. And my need to know "who knows what". So which is more important? If I hang out for a few years, does that make me cool? Or do I just need to kiss enough backside to be accepted into the club? Will I then get the list of "who knows what"?
Well, as I have the oldest 'join date' on the FR boards, I can tell you that hanging out here for a few years does indeed make people extremely cool. Just look at me. Backside kissing is good too. Especially if it's mine. As for the list, I'll see what I can do.;)
-- George Krashos
The FR contains a large number of characters that have received substantially more development that most NPCs in an RPG, simply because they have been written about in novels, and have been developing their backstories for 20+ years. As a DM, its fairly easy to grab a product that has a few relatively generic NPCs and make it your own, but its a lot harder when the NPC is Elminster.
My own approach is to treat the "Name" NPCs in a manner similar to set dressing. PC's might hear rumors, etc, of their exploits, but aren't all that likely to meet them.
Someone earlier made the point that The Chosen overpowered the game if they are used too much. True enough ... but so will that 3rd level Shield Dwarf Paladin with the funny accent that you bring in as an NPC .. if you let him. The simple fact of the matter is that PCs demand ... and deserve ... the spotlight. The world isn't a world without NPCs to share it, but if the DM spends a disproportionate amount of time shining the spotlight away from the PC's, there needs to be a good reason why (for example, spending few minutes focusing on the main villain can be great to foreshadow the plot, but spending a half hour following your pet NPC's "hilarious" antics while the players wait patiently for something to do is bad.)
As I stated earlier, I don't particularly like Epic Level characters ... that's just me ... but the level of the NPCs in your FR campaign is not nearly as important as how much time and energy you (or the DM) devotes to them ... and more importantly, whether you make the PC's the focus of the game, even if they aren't the center of the world.
But if you want to overthrow Tethyr's nascent monarchy or scheme in Waterdeep's political morass or destabilize the Silver Marches, or set anything particularly threatening or political in the central and northern parts of Faerun, then you have to come up with an explanation as to why the Chosen arent' intervening. In other words, if you want that type of campaign to take place in the most detailed areas of the Realms AND you don't want to involve the Chosen, you have to delete them or make up some ridiculous reason that they are inactive. The Simbul's post says exactly the opposite.
The original post says we are not restrained by the Chosen in creating campaigns and hooks. But we are, unless we delete them or make them inactive. Are we free to do that? Yes. But we're not ignorant of Realms material (which Simbul accuses us of being) if we feel that is a necessity.
Alright, if you want to overthrow Tethyr's monarchy then the Chosen are the LEAST of your problems. You have to deal with many noble families and a decent amount of public support for the monarchy. The best way to do this is to find the dissidents in the nation, probably a hefty amount of outside support (probably from Calimshan since Amn is in a bit of a mess right now and it's unlikely that they'd be able to mobilize a large amount of aid towards upsetting Tethyr's monarchy). If you are able to build a power base then you can move towards discrediting, assasinating or otherwise removing the monarchy and then try and "fill the void".
You will not have to deal with El unless Lhaeo called for help and El wasn't busy. I'm not 100% on it but I'm pretty sure the Lhaeo still has quite a mad on for El because El kept his identity hiden from him for a couple decades.
If you want to cause political troubles in Waterdeep. . . well. . . what Chosen would you be "contending" with? You'd certainly be dealing with the Lords of Waterdeep but it's absolutely valid that dealing with the Lords would be VERY difficult. However, you can still work on finding out the identity of the Lords of Waterdeep, get yourself some noble aid and some foriegn aid and either;
Start killing them
Impersonate one
Start kidnapping them
or whatever.
If you start succeeding in destablizing Waterdeep then you may earn the wrath of;
The Harpers
The Lords Alliance
Those "police" groups in Waterdeep (I don't recall their names)
and others.
These would have to be delt with in whatever way you wanted. But it's still not the Chosen breathing down your neck.
If you want to destablize the Silver Marches. . . well that one is easy. Frame one Lord and the stability of the Silver Marches is thrown into question. It's no firm confederation, it's a barely existing group of treaties that are as fragile as the paper they're writen upon (well, probably more fragile, you can enchant a peice of paper, you can't enchant a confederation)
So no, I don't agree, what so ever, that you have to deal with the Chosen and the amount of material covering the Chosen is a completely different debate than if the Chosen "break the world"
As just a single example, Daggerdale was under Zhent control for. . . a couple decades anyhow and yet the Chosen didn't solve the problem (well, eventually El did help in that I think, I'm pretty sure it was the Dale from the Shadows of the Avatar series, but El didn't have his Art at the time). Even if El had the inclination to try and liberate Daggerdale he still had to be concerned that it was all just a big trap. The enemies of the Chosen are not to be taken lightly, they are very powerful and they can kill the Chosen and they have to keep that in mind.
You consistant argument about "The designers agree with me because of a couple of paragraphs in the FRCS" is completely made up by you. You've taken what they said and attributed a reason to it that just doesn't pan out. Several people have stated their opinion that they put that in the FRCS because of debates like this. The only way I'll believe your claim about the reason the designers included that is if;
You get the designers to say your correct
or
You prove that you can read minds and tell me what I ate for dinner last night
Because otherwise, your making stuff up and trying to call it fact.
One of the things I notice about your opinion of the Chosen is that they are some sort of JLA for the Realms. They are not. Most of them are not interested, in the least, in "ruling" others (even the Simbul, she's there as a buffer against the Red Wizards, not because she wanted to be Queen of a nation). The Chosen are also VERY restricted in what they can and cannot do, they cannot afford to be captured (that'd be real bad for Mystra), they cannot afford blow most of their spells in a day (If you get ambushed by a group of Zhents, Red Wizards or any of the other groups/people who want to make a name for themselves, steal your art, etc and you only have a quarter of your spells left you are in for a world of trouble) and they cannot afford to have the general populous decide they are tyrants who need to be taken out.
Again, the Chosen are not super heros, the Chosen do not get involved in even most of the "evil plots" of FR. There ARE groups who do get involved but that is part and parcel of working in the Forgotten Realms. If you do not want a large world where the balance of power is constantly shifting and manages to barely stay balanced (sometimes) then. . . well, then change the Realms, run a homebrew or run in another world.
Clearly your opinions on the Chosen are completely different from mine. I don't feel the source matterials back your opinion on the Chosen but then, you don't feel the matterial backs my opinion. That's fine. I feel free to run a game wherever I'd like in the Realms and I'll run whatever type of game my PCs want. They will not meet the Chosen unless they want to or they get to a level of "importance" where a Chosen (because they ARE NOT a cohesive adventuring party, not in the least) is concerned about them and EVEN THEN the Chosen won't really have the option of blasting the PCs to dust because the backlash of such an action would destroy the influence they've managed to build over the centuries.
Hate to tell you but the Unseen have already succeeded at it.
It is a tad disturbing that relatively few people have understood Eric Boyd's subtle intent in the recent CoS: W product. That said, many recent product and novel nuances seem to have been ignored by the general FR populace. Basically, Waterdeep is going to hell in a handbasket - why don't more PCs join in and go along for the ride?
-- George Krashos
The thing I've never really understood about Ed's take though is, as I've mentioned before, why the Seven Sisters and the elven Chosen might be subject to this same level of insanity.
My own take on it is that it's Mystra's essence, coupled with REALLY hard living, that does this sorta thing.
But at least I still have the Buckleswashers to make me feel better. :D
It is a tad disturbing that relatively few people have understood Eric Boyd's subtle intent in the recent CoS: W product. That said, many recent product and novel nuances seem to have been ignored by the general FR populace. Basically, Waterdeep is going to hell in a handbasket - why don't more PCs join in and go along for the ride?
-- George Krashos
But... but... THE CHOSEN!
OMG! The Chosen is the equivalent of "But Clinton"!
(not really, but it's fun to make the comparison )But... but... THE CHOSEN!
OMG! The Chosen is the equivalent of "But Clinton"!
If you don't think ultimately a novel will come out where some member of the Chosen or similar solves the great problems in Waterdeep, then you are probably deluding yourself.
Despite the fact that I know Storm isn't quite right in the head, I always thought that Storm was acting quite out of character in that particular section of the ToT novels (if it is the one I'm thinking of)...
That's what I meant. I don't think anyone has argued that Storm is in character there (though the discontinuity has been attributed to deliberate unreliable narration rather than a ****-up).
Ed's said that the Chosen are quite insane a number of times that I've seen over at Candlekeep.
It's a fairly blatant subtext in some of his fiction.
However, I did take exception to the initial post. That may not have been the intent, but that was the way I read it.
It was phrased harshly, but I doubt it was meant to give gratuitous offence, and no rejoinder was directed at people who (like us) thought there were too many stat blocks in the FRCS, but at people who think the Chosen are a problem in Forgotten Realms campaigns, which you apparently don't.
Or author bad ideas are beyond understanding of readers, and since there's no explanation, it's a cosmic enigma.
Without reading the sources indicated, you have no basis for jumping to conclusions about bad ideas except some kind of prejudice.
Bottom line is: there's no explanation to this issues other than theories.
This has always been Ed's approach in all matters of the gods.
As I've pointed out repeatedly, the view that the Chosen constrict campaign options by their presence, their power, and their numbers is supported by the FRCS' making comments on how to leave the Chosen out of your campaign.
You've repeatedly alleged that speculative motive, but in all their messageboard discussion there's no suggestion that Ed, Sean, Skip, Rob or Rich believe that for a moment and are not just covering their bases.
The gaming materials and the novels overemphasize the Chosen (and the gaming materials semi-admit it), so you can't say that people who are uncomfortable with that over-emphasis have an invalid point of view (and that's exactly what the original post says).
It says nothing about the (undisputed) distorted overemphasis in the publications, only about the state of the Realms as it applies to campaigns.
The Simbul's post says that making the Chosen inactive or destroying them is never necessary.
It says that making them unrealistically inactive isn't necessary. The many reasons why, outside their immediate neighbourhoods (Shadowdale, Silverymoon, etc.) and primary narrow concerns, and often within them, they are unlikely to be active in any given situation are ably summarized in the FRCS and gone over ad nauseam here and elsewhere. You say this is all ridiculous but make no argument for the claim.
. . . the later posts in this thread seem to have built a marginal consensus that if you want to do certain things, you'll have to involve the Chosen. And that's what many of us don't want to do . . . ever.
Outside the caveat that they aren't worldwalking, planewalking, or researching in seclusion -- which is what several of them do most of the time -- yes, of course they will tend to get involved in 'certain things'. But again, it's you, not the Realms (but yes, the superficial presentation of the Realms as well), who irrationally single the Chosen out in particular over a much greater number of other equally 'intrusive' powerful NPCs and concerns, apparently because of your personal dislike of them as indicated by your categorical 'ever' and emotive words like 'infest'.
The original post says we are not restrained by the Chosen in creating campaigns and hooks.
We're 'restrained' by them in the same way as we are by every other detail of geography, society and inhabitants of a published setting, except a great deal less than many other more prominent elements. The only way to avoid such 'restraint' is not to play in any detailed setting at all.
Were they as omnipotent and omniscient as you seem to think, would the Arcane Brotherhood, Knights of the Shield, Unseen, Xanathar, Shadow Thieves, or any other evil power group even still exist? Or be half as successful as they are?
Tiamat2's 'argument' is circular: the Chosen are omnipresent and overwhelmingly powerful and all-seeing because they quash all such evil-doing; they can quash it because they're so powerful. Plainly, looking at the sources, neither is the case. ShadezofDis's detailed replies about Tethyr, Waterdeep and the Silver Marches are quite fair.
From what I recall of clerical spells, a quick fix is a simple Heal spell away, though I'll admit I'm a bit rusty on cleric spells.
In the Realms heal is not a compete panacea, at least against damage caused by contact with the transcendent, unmortal fires of the gods.
My own approach is to treat the "Name" NPCs in a manner similar to set dressing. PC's might hear rumors, etc, of their exploits, but aren't all that likely to meet them.
Have you noticed how every now and then people put this forward as an original 'solution' (I'm not saying you are!) without realizing it's consistently what the books, going back to the very earliest, recommend?
Well, as I have the oldest 'join date' on the FR boards, I can tell you that hanging out here for a few years does indeed make people extremely cool.
Of course, admiting your 'cool' is often the first step towards "not being cool", or so I've been told.
Just look at me.
Are those gray scales I'm starting to see coming through Mr. Morueme? :P
We're 'restrained' by them in the same way as we are by every other detail of geography, society and inhabitants of a published setting, except a great deal less than many other more prominent elements. The only way to avoid such 'restraint' is not to play in any detailed setting at all.
Damn, that's what I've been trying (and failing!) to articulate for DAYS :p
Thanks Faraer, you've saved me from trying to articulate that point (because I have started writing it at least 5 different times and just couldn't get it correct *g*)
Of course, admiting your 'cool' is often the first step towards "not being cool", or so I've been told.
Are those gray scales I'm starting to see coming through Mr. Morueme? :P
Ohhhhhhh, you gonna take that Krash?
Fight! Fight! Fight! ;)
If you don't think ultimately a novel will come out where some member of the Chosen or similar solves the great problems in Waterdeep, then you are probably deluding yourself.
I don't state my opinion of the novels on this board (or any really), in my game I ignore them almost completely (ie. the events happen, the specifics of the books are ignored)
I don't state my opinion of the novels on this board (or any really), in my game I ignore them almost completely (ie. the events happen, the specifics of the books are ignored)
That's interesting; I pay great attention to their specifics -- of how things work, how folk speak and act, details of places and 'minor' characters -- and generally ignore their events.
Next time I run an FR game, I'm going to go all Gary Gygax on it. Elminster is an old coot, 5th level wizard, when the PCs agree to help and he shows up and gets killed the look on their faces will be priceless.
My new Chosen of Mystra are farmer Ted and his wife Beatrix.
Tiamat2's 'argument' is circular: the Chosen are omnipresent and overwhelmingly powerful because they quash all such evil-doing; they can quash it because they're so powerful. Plainly, looking at the sources, neither is the case. ShadezofDis's detailed replies about Tethyr, Waterdeep and the Silver Marches are quite fair.
You can put quotation marks around argument and deride my point of view all you'd like, but one would hope that isn't all it takes to be convincing.
In some cases, you concede that the Chosen are over-emphasized in the materials, but then claim that it is foolish for people to react to that over-emphasis by feeling pigeon-holed by the Chosen's presence. Although I'm sure that there is some deep mystical truth in the Realms sources that years of study by candlelight can reveal, I remain fairly unconvinced that I have a completely irrational point of view when I argue that the Chosen preclude more campaign hooks than is reasonable to expect in a gaming setting. You even grant one of my major points in your post: that the Chosen are likely to react to events going on in their immediate environment. The Chosen's immediate environment includes Waterdeep, the Silver Marches, Aglarond, and the Dalelands. That's an awful lot of source material ruled out if you want to create a campaign that doesn't involve the Chosen's presence.
I also don't think its unreasonable to extend the Chosen's sphere of influence to lands they have interfered with in the past. It never occured to me that people would argue that if the Monarchy of Tethyr was overthrown by Pretenders that the Chosen would not once again intervene and restore their satellites. Did the Chosen not play a decisive role in sending Haedrak to Tethyr to begin with? Did they not provide aid and support? I'm not arguing that the King and Queen of Tethyr's only source of legitimacy is their affiliation with the Chosen, but I am arguing that if someone is successful in undoing the Chosen's work in that region, its not unreasonable to expect them to intervene again. I've read Lands of Intrigue, but you don't have to dig so deeply to find information on their interference, as its pretty clearly stated in the FRCS entry on Tethyr.
I am a little weary of the straw man character to this debate. Do I think the Chosen could defeat any foe put against them? No. Have I argued that the Chosen intervene in every evil act or plot that goes on in the Realms? No. What I have argued is that the original poster's attack on people who feel that the Chosen are too omni-present in the Realms was misguided. If you are a DM attempting to draft a political and/or high level intrigue themed campaign in the area of Faerun where the Chosen are located, you must take the Chosen into account because the setting forces you to. Your other options are the ones that the Simbul's post says are irrational: unrealistic inactivity or deletion. My point is that the Simbul is wrong. Those are your only choices for a great many hooks and it is entirely rational to feel frustrated by this fact.
That's interesting; I pay great attention to their specifics -- of how things work, how folk speak and act, details of places and 'minor' characters -- and generally ignore their events.
Well, you got me there, poor wording on my part.
I do try to pay attention to the details of the setting the characters are in, but I tend to ignore how the characters go about things and do a sorta "retcon" in my head of how they could succeed without the deus ex-machina. If that makes sense.
(or "retcon" things that seem completely wrong to me, in which case I first try to explain why it would be alright for the thing to be completely wrong and then, if I can't come up with something satisfactory I go ahead and "retcon")
Hasn't really been an issue in my games, just in my design of campaigns
The disclaimer is there because the emphasis of the D&D game is largely on "good" characters and parties fighting "evil." Given that the game designers work on the basis that most of the PCs will be in the business of heroism, it's rather pointless to offer a disclaimer for, say, overstating the effect the Red Wizards of Thay might have. As antagonists to the PCs, it is a given that they will be largely intertwined in their lives and quests. There is no danger of the DM using the actions of villainous groups to overshadow the accomplishments of the PCs--unless one worries about a vastly negative campaign where all goes wrong despite the heroes' efforts.
The reverse, however, is a plausible fear. Given that most novels focus on heroes defeating villains, it is all-too natural for DMs--and players--to emulate or focus overmuch one the characters they have come to know and love. Hence, a developer's forewarning to give proper emphasis on the heroes that really matter--the same ones old Elminster himself addresses in page 4, the introduction to the Forgotten Realms (hint, hint: that's the PCs).
Furthemore, some of the examples used to argue overt Chosen influence are contrived.
The Dalelands, ostensibly protected by no less than 3 Chosen at one time or another, still suffer the presence of the Zhentarim and foreign nations, and are split up by a massive forest that, until recently (and no thanks to the actions of Chosen) was the bastion of uncounted devils, demons, undead, and the surface's largest population of Drow Elves.
The Silver Marches (another bastion of the Chosen) are a confederation of states with limited control over their territory, where mundane travel is dangerous and non-human raiders always threaten the most exposed communities and groups.
I could go on, but should I really have to? It's should be an easily deduced fact that the Chosen, and other major NPCs, serve as a balancing factor against the epic evil of the Realms. Until the PCs reach that level of power, they are thus able to focus on such deeds as getting the Warblade's daughter from Sundabar to her wedding in Silverymoon while avoiding roving Orcs and such--all this, without having to worry about whether or not Thayan Enhanced Meteors are going to be launched across the North as part of the opening salvo of an intercontinental war. It's part of having a plausible, living world at your disposal.
When the PCs do move into that level of power, though, it's the DM's responsibility to have the reins of power handed from one group to the next. In page 4 of the FRCS, Elminster himself tells us he's old, tired, and ragged. He wants a break. If those once starry-eyed kids, who are now able to bend Dragons to their will, wish to take over the watch against the world's great evils, would he refuse?
See, this shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of the Chosen and their Goddess. There are several things more important than who holds the reins. What use is holding a rein linked to nothing. Kel had something much more important to do. Something connected to multiple Gods and 10's of thousands of souls. An entire elven realm at that. He was a Chosen. He was an "elf". He was the key to the Pentad's plans. He was the father of the first Chosen Squared. Guess those kids, that realm, those Gods, that race would just have to grin and bare it because Mystra wanted Her successor to be "up to speed". Gawds people. Mystra has never acted like the pissy little Kid you all seem to think She is. Let's all just take a deep breath and realize that there are things(and Folk) who are smarter, wiser, ballsier, and yes, loonier than we can grasp as mortals. If you can't grasp this point then why even care? Let me put it this way, there are no agnostics in the realms. They know. Sorry for the rant. It's just my ancient age creeping upon me.
Kel?
Never acted like the pissy little kid?
-No magic for evil.
-I want to go back to the divine planes now mister Helm!
-No crushing reds while they're making me happy Simbul!
-You chosen will breed only when i want to!
-Elfs are cool, and other are boring.So chosen, help them!
Smarter,wiser,ballsier,loonier, and maybe...dumber?
What I have argued is that the original poster's attack on people who feel that the Chosen are too omni-present in the Realms was misguided. If you are a DM attempting to draft a political and/or high level intrigue themed campaign in the area of Faerun where the Chosen are located, you must take the Chosen into account because the setting forces you to. Your other options are the ones that the Simbul's post says are irrational: unrealistic inactivity or deletion. My point is that the Simbul is wrong. Those are your only choices for a great many hooks and it is entirely rational to feel frustrated by this fact.
Name one NPC/organization that isn't true of... if you go stomping in anyone's backyard, they're going to get involved, Chosen or not Chosen.
You go stomping about in Thay and get all political, you're eventually going to attract the attention of the Zulkirs and Tharchions once you get successful enough. Does that mean we should get rid of the Red Wizards?
You go stomping in the Moonsea and get all political, you're eventually going to attract the attention of Fzoul and Co. once you get successful enough. We going to get rid of the Zhents now?
You go stomping in Mulhorand and get all political, you're eventually going to attract the attention of the Pharoah and high priests once you get successful enough. We going to get rid of Mulhorand now?
You go stomping in the areas around the Shining Sea and get all political, you're going to attract the attention of the Rundeen once you get successful enough. We going to get rid of the Rundeen then?
I'm sure you see the point by now... at least I hope you do.
In the point of view you seem to espouse... and just gloss over it...
I'm glad you're adopting Faraer's tactic of belittling other people's ability to read. It helps keep the debate civil.
Edit: There are some excellent ideas in the post below. I won't make another one-line post to voice my agreement, but I wanted to compliment the poster, Boda, who I am sure will now have his ability to understand the Realms sources correctly questioned.
Neither Mystra is treated like the other deities, nor her chosen, or even her church.
There is a belief that Mystra is more powerful or more important that other greater deities (like shar or chauntea) based on solely wishful thinking and this is shared by some authors. She is the greater deity with most novel use, and with the most doutbful actions of all (nº of chosen created, the reason why they where created, their attitude, the major magic debacles so far, the conflicts between her alignments and goals). The absurd stats on Faiths&Pantheons. And of couse, the fact that it has been clearly stated that she can deny acess to the weave(her portfolio) to anyone (other then shar-shadow weave, witch other deity has likewise ability?Can chauntea deny fertility in a said region?)
This, of couse, reflects on her chosen.
The abilities of her chosen( +4 stat?, imortality?) also vastly overpower any other chosen so far (that i am aware at least), the fact that they are nomally independent for their patron, the fact that their have a global influence (some do not restrict their influence into a set region like other chosen do), the tendency to the good alignment on almost all of them(evil guys can be loyal, and no, sammasters problem wasnt evil, it was insanityl), the bad uses that some author have given them, that overexposure of chosen(novels, guidebooks, Hell, El's ''seems'' to be everywhere and knows everything).
Notice that on de description of the church of mystra in Faiths&pantheons, it states that besides clerics and wizards/sorcerors in the church, there's an order of paladins, a society of bards, and groups of rangers. Ok, but why is it the only church that this is mentioned? Doesnt the church of tyr gets the service of rangers and bards?
I dont dislike the chosen of mystra (i really liked blackstaff, simbul, laeral, alustriel), but i do dislike this diference of treatment between them and other chosen. Some of the critics i make are disarmed by explanations in canon, but not everything in canon is good idea.
So we can agree to disagree. I like some of R.A.Salvatore novels, some of you dont. I like obould and his orcs (the idea), some you dont. You guys see everything fine with the chosen of mystra, i dont. So i dont use them, the magister just fine for me.
This discussion will problably go and go and go...but i just got bored about it. And in the end, the authors and game develophers decide, and that's that.
In fact, if you read Tempus's entry in F&A, it would seem to set-up the Lord of Battles as a deity who is unlikely to have anything resembling a Chosen. This is because Tempus appears to show his favor for both sides in a conflict, or even the most valorous for example. As I see it, a Chosen on one side or another, during a conflict, would actually contradict established Tempuran dogma.
I've heard it said that the best model we've seen of a favoured servant of the Lord of Battles is Baergil's valiant sacrifice in All Shadows Fled. And I agree with that.
Zandilar, I've never gotten the whole insane thing myself. From what I recall of clerical spells, a quick fix is a simple Heal spell away, though I'll admit I'm a bit rusty on cleric spells. Totally with you as far as the Seven weathering centuries better than 'mere mortals' though. The whole divine birth thing seems remarkably underplayed to me in a lot of respects, at least as far as how they handle the weight of years.
That's how I rule Heal myself, though I suppose an argument could possibly be made that it only applies to magical insanity, caused by spells like Insanity (would you believe it?) and Prismatic Spray (one outcome, I think dice roll 6, results in insanity as per the spell - I'm playing a mage who specialises in Prismatic spells, so I kind of have the table memorised) and the like.
The one thing we need to remember is that the Chosen are novel characters at their heart, and certian things, like resurrection and heal, just don't make for good plotlines, and therefore generally get ignored or otherwise avoided. (ie: I was yelling at the novel Blackstaff for exactly that reason the other day!*)
*
Show
A cameo/minor character died, but rather than have her resurrected, the rich noble wizard character just fell to pieces, and Khelben eventually gave him something to help him mourn quickly - dumb huh? Absolutely no attempt at all. If they really wanted to tie it off an make it make sense, they should have attempted to bring her back, and she should have refused.
One difference (among many, as you were aware when you drew the loose analogy) is the Chosen's "backyard" is most of central and northern Faerun and encompasses the vast bulk of the published gaming material.
As stated previously, the evidence simply doesn't support you on this matter. To even try to put forth this argument, one would have to ignore the severly understate the power and influence of "evil" groups in large swaths of the lands you mentioned.
As stated previously, the evidence simply doesn't support you on this matter. To even try to put forth this argument, one would have to ignore the severly understate the power and influence of "evil" groups in large swaths of the lands you mentioned.
Honestly, sometimes I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. The Straw Man returns! Since I assert the Chosen have any power at all, I must be asserting that there is no evil allowed in Faerun. Seriously . . . I want to go back to Kansas.
The only argument I've put forward is the Chosen must be taken into account in the areas they nominally control (the Silver Marches, Aglarond), dwell in and defend (Waterdeep and the Dalelands), or have interfered successfully in before (Tethyr). I would try to make a broader point, as I did originally, but I can't even seem to get people to agree that they "rule" lands where they are the ruler! Making even this narrow point does not mean there is no evil in those areas, it merely means that the evil in those areas is restricted in character and to create a new hook or campaign in those places requires justifying why the Chosen aren't involved or involving the Chosen. Or, the preferred option of many, which the Simbul railed against, deleting the Chosen or reducing their importance. The Original Poster said that isn't necessary and even stated that it is a policy born of ignorance and foolishness. The Original Post argued that the Chosen do not limit your campaigns at all. That isn't true. What also isn't true is that being frustrated at the plot-lines closed off by the Chosen's power and influence as presented in the materials (in fact, overly presented, as conceded by others) is irrational or ignorant.
PS. One of the more bizarre aspects of this entire discussion has become the fact that people who presumably like the Chosen (as characters and/or a gaming element) are continually attempting to point out how weak and pitiful they are, while someone who finds them a completely ridiculous plot and gaming device has to continually point out how strong and effective the novels and gaming material present them. Very odd.
Tempus doesn't have a Chosen.
In fact, if you read Tempus's entry in F&A, it would seem to set-up the Lord of Battles as a deity who is unlikely to have anything resembling a Chosen. This is because Tempus appears to show his favor for both sides in a conflict, or even the most valorous for example. As I see it, a Chosen on one side or another, during a conflict, would actually contradict established Tempuran dogma.
I've heard it said that the best model we've seen of a favoured servant of the Lord of Battles is Baergil's valiant sacrifice in All Shadows Fled. And I agree with that.
Tempus might as well not even be in the realms as far as his coverage in novels and campaign material goes. That temple he has in the dales could have been to Torm or Helm for all the difference it would have made.
You ever notice that only certain gods are used in novels? Everyone worships Torm, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Mielliki(?). I've heard one cleric worshipped Deneir, but no one since.
Until they start using Tempus (he got more use in Icewind Dale the first computer game than anywhere else) he could be substituted for by any martial god and no one would notice.
Maybe if he were not so retiring he would pick a chosen to spread his ideology across Faerun.
All the cool kids do it. If I'm wrong please point out a novel or game source where it would have mattered if you substituted Torm or Helm for Tempus.
Plus Thieve's World wants it's name back.
Kel?
Ok, you got me on a keystroke.
Never acted like the pissy little kid?
-No magic for evil.
Never happened. You know that. Anything better?
-I want to go back to the divine planes now mister Helm!
Also happened nothing like that. I really wish I could say with some certainty that you knew that also. Waiting....
-No crushing reds while they're making me happy Simbul!
Hmm, she actually tries to help out the Evil that get's no magic and the whine begins again. Next?
-You chosen will breed only when i want to!
Oh yeah, That makes every corporation with salaried employees pissy little kids. Come on, give me something!
-Elfs are cool, and other are boring.So chosen, help them!
Elves can be quite cool. Can be fully uncool also. This last little one is just digging at the straws of one of Tiamat2's little argue-men.
Smarter,wiser,ballsier,loonier, and maybe...dumber?
Um, yes, I can go with that. Finally. ;)
Argh. I'm a keystroke down. Ugh..
As stated previously, the evidence simply doesn't support you on this matter. To even try to put forth this argument, one would have to ignore the severly understate the power and influence of "evil" groups in large swaths of the lands you mentioned.
What power? Yes I know about the Zhentarim. And the Red Wizards. Other than the Shades, the Twisted Rune, Larloch the homebody, and Iolaum that does nothing what Evil couldn't El, The Symbul or Alustriel polish off before breakfast? And I include the Zhents and Red Wizards. Plus I think the Chosen could polish off the Shades effortlessly according to Lords of Darkness. The Shades just don't have enough Mojo. They can threaten Cormyr but not the Chosen.
There are only 6,000 Red Wizards right? I think I remember that number from Lords of Darkness. Assume E, Alustriel, Symbul, and Laeral off one a day. They have no problems teleporting across Faerun on a whim. And to be honest Szass isn't a threat to any of them.
In 5 years the Chosen that have real classes (Sylune is a ghost, Quilue is whatever who knows, Storm chose an unfortunate class, Dove is a Fighter? (what a maroon).) could off all the Red Wizards. Major kink in the Replacement cycle. I don't think Thay would survive 98% or so of their masters disappearing in 5 years.
Reds gone.
Zhents even easier. At least according to the NPC and numbers we have printed on them. You would think Fzoul is the highest leveled member, notwithstanding Manshoon and Fzoul's chosen of Bane Template.
He's only 19th level without his chosen template (including that Hierophant crap). Manshoon is a 24th level mage? Maybe? Any other Zhents going to be that high? Any clerics going to be higher than 19th level?
Anyone think Fzoul is a threat to E one on one? And what difference would say 150,000 1st level fireball fodder, I mean fighters make after all?
Who's left? Iron Throne? Rundeen? Knights of the Shield?
You might say the Chosen can't know all this. Does Mystra know it? Why isn't she whispering in their ear?
Heck I bet I could take the Chosen and decimate a Drow city no problem. And there would be nothing the Drow could do about it.
The Twisted Rune on the other hand...
Edit: Oh yeah, and exactly what Drow attacked Evermeet? A confederation of cities? One City? More reasonable, but if so which one?
And.. Drow cities are not all amazing as people seemingly make them out to be... There's only a handful of example Epic Drow characters in canon, and many/most of them (and the highest level ones) are all dead.
Do I think the Chosen could defeat any foe put against them? No. Have I argued that the Chosen intervene in every evil act or plot that goes on in the Realms? No. What I have argued is that the original poster's attack on people who feel that the Chosen are too omni-present in the Realms was misguided. If you are a DM attempting to draft a political and/or high level intrigue themed campaign in the area of Faerun where the Chosen are located, you must take the Chosen into account because the setting forces you to.
I guess I'm just having trouble understanding your argument. If I am a DM trying to design a relatively high level adventure involving political intrigue, of course there is the possibility that the Chosen may become involved at some point, but before that I'm going to involve the groups in the local region. For example, if I set my game in Cormyr and my PCs work their way into court intrigue, the Crown will get involved, with influential characters such as Alusair and Calandei eventually getting into the mix if my PCs get that far. Before that I would involve the various noble families of Cormyr, various bastards of Azoun, the Purple Dragons, the High Knights, the War Wizards, Sembian ambassadors, traders, and spies, the Zhentarim, the clergies of gods who have a large following in the kingdom, various churches of minor influence wanting to become more established, the Harpers, the elves of Cormanthor, representatives from the Dales, diplomats and spies from other places along the Inner Sea, etc. Technically they all have a more immediate interest and the resources to put even your best laid plans six feet under before they get off the ground.
The same applies for other regions, regardless of Chosen presence. Some groups are found over large swaths of Faerun (such as the Harpers, the Lord Alliance, the Zhentarim, the Thayans, the Cult of the Dragon, various religions), others are found only within their sphere of influence. I don't see why the Chosen are being singled out when they are just one of the many groups influencing their home areas. If you were playing or DMing the Cormyr example game described above, would you blame the War Wizards or the Purple Dragons for trying to prevent a foreign power taking over the kingdom since they do close off too many plot hooks ranging from level one all the way to epic?
I don't think Thay would survive 98% or so of their masters disappearing in 5 years.
Perhaps. Or the culling could have forced the remaining 2% of Red Wizards to become the most powerful wizards to rule that portion of Faerun for generations, surpassing even Szass Tam or the Chosen due to the pressure these events put on them to adapt. They could rule over a unified nation with a new nationalistic edge invigorating even the slaves into a terrifying engine of hateful determination, turning Thay into a warded fortress against all intrusions, magical or otherwise. While the chosen are being slowed down in Thay; Fzoul and Manshoon, who may not be able to match the Chosen, but are pretty far up there compared to anyone else, will certainly stomp over most of the beloved home territories of the Chosen. Or worst case scenario for Thay, all the Red Wizards die, but not before they unleash their dead man's switch, unleashing all their slave armies, regular troops, arcane experimentations and other magics onto the surrounding nations, causing considerable damage, exactly the opposite of what the Chosen or anyone wants.
No, this sort of extermination of the Red Wizards (or any decently sized group) gives them too much time and impetus to react. You could try a massive magical assault that turns Thay into a giant crater in one casting, which is an idea the Simbul considered working on in a novel or something before the Thayans began their mercantile endeavors and weren't an overt threat to Aglarond anymore. Otherwise you could try to eliminate select Red Wizards over the course of many years, enough to slow them down but not raise suspicion, better if you can blame it on rival Red Wizards, which is far more of an intrigue thing.
Honestly, sometimes I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. The Straw Man returns! Since I assert the Chosen have any power at all, I must be asserting that there is no evil allowed in Faerun. Seriously . . . I want to go back to Kansas.
Odd that you would argue strawmen, since you're doing such a good job of avoiding the point I was making.
I specifically addressed your incorrect portrayal of much of Faerun as the Chosen's "backyard." You're the one that created the strawman by neatly trying to put words into my mouth. Once more, my point: claiming that such large swaths of land are the Chosen's back yard severely understates the presence of extant evil groups.
The only argument I've put forward is the Chosen must be taken into account in the areas they nominally control (the Silver Marches, Aglarond), ...
And I disagree. I do so because any objective look at, say, the Silver Marches, shows that the Chosen do not CONTROL the area you claim they do. In this example, Alustriel is the decidedly-not-absolute leader of a confederation--whose member states are themselves led by non-Chosen leaders who can and often do disagree and even ignore Alustriel.
... dwell in and defend (Waterdeep and the Dalelands), ...
Which is a completely different picture than the one you tried painting before. Quite obviously the PCs don't have to take into account NPCs who, depending on their write-up, are either chronically missing, reluctant to MEET with anyone, trapped within a set geographical locale, or even unable to prevent foreign, hostile forces from intruding on the lands they defend.
And Tethyr? Are you implying that Lhaeo, the rightful heir to begin with, was somehow an example of Chosen interfering?
I would try to make a broader point, as I did originally, but I can't even seem to get people to agree that they "rule" lands where they are the ruler!
That's because in about half the cases you are simply not right.
Making even this narrow point does not mean there is no evil in those areas, it merely means that the evil in those areas is restricted in character and to create a new hook or campaign in those places requires justifying why the Chosen aren't involved or involving the Chosen.
You chose to adventure in a pre-written game world. Within such a world, there have to realistically exist forces meant to challenge the heroes, who themselves are meant to go out and defeat evil.
Now, the Realms, being a realistic world, have been written with an eye toward being as living a world as possible. That means that *powerful* evil doesn't simply come to being when the PCs hit a certain level of experience. It has been there all along, scheming and plotting. For the Realms to NOT be contrived, there has to be a balancing force. Enter the Chosen. When the PCs get to that level of game-play, there is no pressure on the DM to deconflict with such powers. They are not, simply put, no longer a requirement for the balance to exist.
Or, the preferred option of many, which the Simbul railed against, deleting the Chosen or reducing their importance. The Original Poster said that isn't necessary and even stated that it is a policy born of ignorance and foolishness.
My two cents' worth: if a party is at a level where the doings of the Chosen and the threats they have to face are not even within their scope, deleting or minimizing an impact that should already be minimal to begin with is kind of silly. If said part quests, campaigns, and fights to the point where it is they than now hold the invisible line against, say, the Red Wizards of Thay, I would like to think that a changing of the guard (from old Chosen to new heroes) should be no more of a challenge than taking into account any other cultural or societal factor within the Realms.
The Original Post argued that the Chosen do not limit your campaigns at all. That isn't true.
You make a statement; please cite evidence.
What also isn't true is that being frustrated at the plot-lines closed off by the Chosen's power and influence as presented in the materials (in fact, overly presented, as conceded by others) is irrational or ignorant.
I'm not sure I identify simply because I don't see what you mean. Just months past, the Last Mythal Trilogy concluded, wherein Myth Drannor was cleared, Mythals were destroyed and created, and a society of demonic elves was dealt with. Chosen took no part in this. How is it that FR novel writers can cope with what you describe and yet you can't?
Incidentally, I've never had a Chosen directly participate/affect the plots of a single one of my adventures. The closest they have come to impacting my campaign was a ceremony in which characters received decorations from Alustriel for deeds done in the service of a minor Silver Marches confederate.
Tempus might as well not even be in the realms as far as his coverage in novels and campaign material goes. That temple he has in the dales could have been to Torm or Helm for all the difference it would have made.
You ever notice that only certain gods are used in novels? Everyone worships Torm, Helm, Tyr, Mystra, Mielliki(?). I've heard one cleric worshipped Deneir, but no one since.
Until they start using Tempus (he got more use in Icewind Dale the first computer game than anywhere else) he could be substituted for by any martial god and no one would notice.
Maybe if he were not so retiring he would pick a chosen to spread his ideology across Faerun.
All the cool kids do it. If I'm wrong please point out a novel or game source where it would have mattered if you substituted Torm or Helm for Tempus.
Plus Thieve's World wants it's name back.
You may want to take a look through Ed's replies made at Candlekeep over the last several years. He's managed to slip the odd few tidbits about Tempus and Tempuran faith in general, through his posts.
What power? Yes I know about the Zhentarim. And the Red Wizards. Other than the Shades, the Twisted Rune, Larloch the homebody, and Iolaum that does nothing what Evil couldn't El, The Symbul or Alustriel polish off before breakfast? And I include the Zhents and Red Wizards. Plus I think the Chosen could polish off the Shades effortlessly according to Lords of Darkness. The Shades just don't have enough Mojo. They can threaten Cormyr but not the Chosen.
Your opinion simply doesn't reconcile either with the reality of the sourcebooks published OR with the view of the Realms Ed Greenwood has held to.
At the end of the day, even a cursory look at the write-ups of either the Twisted Rune or the Red Wizards of Thay shows a level of power that the Chosen could not face and win.
If you wish to go with Ed's views instead, Larloch "the homebody" possesses enough power to lay waste to the entire world.
There are only 6,000 Red Wizards right? I think I remember that number from Lords of Darkness. Assume E, Alustriel, Symbul, and Laeral off one a day. They have no problems teleporting across Faerun on a whim. And to be honest Szass isn't a threat to any of them.
Zsass Tamm alone is a match for almost any single Chosen. All but two of the Zulkirs are listed as being Epic in level.
In 5 years the Chosen that have real classes (Sylune is a ghost, Quilue is whatever who knows, Storm chose an unfortunate class, Dove is a Fighter? (what a maroon).) could off all the Red Wizards. Major kink in the Replacement cycle. I don't think Thay would survive 98% or so of their masters disappearing in 5 years.
That, of course, is assuming that what you propose is even feasible to begin with--either in gaming terms or in the novelized "reality" of the Realms. Hint: it's not.
Zhents even easier. At least according to the NPC and numbers we have printed on them.
That much is true; of course, even if all the Chosen went after the Zhentarim, all that would do is give any number of Zulkirs, Twisted Rune affiliates, or Princes of Shade an excuse to gang up on them. Amazingly enough, that may be why the most powerful figures maintain a "cold war" instead... Much like the real world. Go figure!
You might say the Chosen can't know all this. Does Mystra know it? Why isn't she whispering in their ear?
Because she's not the contrived force for good everyone assumes she is. She grants magic, including EPIC magic, to evil mages. Think about it.
First, do you even like the Realms as presented in the FRCS 3.X (I believe it's 3.0)? Is it the Chosen that bother you? Is it all the high level characters overall?
Because what I am reading you say is;
"I find it a problem that a plot has to take into account the pre-existing characters in a region. The reason I find this to be a problem is because of the characters themselves, particularly their power level. The reason I feel their power level is a problem is because, in my opinion, the wield world altering powers that have no counter."
I'm pretty sure that puts words in your mouth. I'm going to leave it anyway, just to show you why it is hard for me to respond to your arguments concisely.
I think a lot of the problem is that your point, as referred to here;
The only argument I've put forward is the Chosen must be taken into account in the areas they nominally control (the Silver Marches, Aglarond), dwell in and defend (Waterdeep and the Dalelands), or have interfered successfully in before (Tethyr).
Doesn't really speak to the point of the Simbul's post.
The Simbul's post is stating that you can still adventure in the Realms, using many different tactics for dealing with the native NPCs.
That you dislike the setup of the Realms is irrelevant to her post. Any RPG requires a suspention of disbelief, if you cannot suspend your disbelief towards a part of the setting then don't use it because NOTHING in the FRCS is set in stone. Like I said long ago, if you think the various high level NPCs are too powerful then knock 10 levels off (or 20, or 30).
You could, however, use a more in depth solution though. Any of the Chosen can be called off by Mystra or chose of their own violation not to get involved because of _____. You get to make up _____ and then, when your characters are ripe for some plannar politics you can lay ______ square in their laps.
Your opinion simply doesn't reconcile either with the reality of the sourcebooks published OR with the view of the Realms Ed Greenwood has held to.
At the end of the day, even a cursory look at the write-ups of either the Twisted Rune or the Red Wizards of Thay shows a level of power that the Chosen could not face and win.
If you wish to go with Ed's views instead, Larloch "the homebody" possesses enough power to lay waste to the entire world.
Zsass Tamm alone is a match for almost any single Chosen. All but two of the Zulkirs are listed as being Epic in level.
That, of course, is assuming that what you propose is even feasible to begin with--either in gaming terms or in the novelized "reality" of the Realms. Hint: it's not.
That much is true; of course, even if all the Chosen went after the Zhentarim, all that would do is give any number of Zulkirs, Twisted Rune affiliates, or Princes of Shade an excuse to gang up on them. Amazingly enough, that may be why the most powerful figures maintain a "cold war" instead... Much like the real world. Go figure!
Because she's not the contrived force for good everyone assumes she is. She grants magic, including EPIC magic, to evil mages. Think about it.
I was going to trim your post down some, but I want to ask you a question. Somewhere in this thread someone stated Mystra had worshippers that were evil.
Can you name one?
Zsass Tamm alone is a match for almost any single Chosen. All but two of the Zulkirs are listed as being Epic in level.
No, no, no. For once one of you guys needs to back up what he says.
Explain how. And remember the chosen have silverfire that eats liches like lighter fluid eats charcoal. There have been a couple threads on this board concerning how any of the chosen could own Larloch. Why is it different now? And even if you do it as a straight level matchup, how could he threaten any of the big chosen? I'm sure he could deal with Storm or Dove.
There are really only five, four now that Khelben is dead. Quilue, Sylune, Dove may as well not be there. Storm is mostly bard. She can't play with the big guys.
So explain it.
Since I assert the Chosen have any power at all, I must be asserting that there is no evil allowed in Faerun.
This is pure hyperbole. You're not arguing that the Chosen have "any power at all", you're arguing that they have immense power over large swaths of Faerûn, and that simply isn't the case by the facts of the matter, as many posters here have repeatedly tried to tell you.
You said they rule directly in Waterdeep, when none even live there anymore, when Peirgeiron and the Lords are the actual rulers, and when such little influence as the Chosen may have there comes from the fact that those Lords are their friends and take their advice seriously. Thats not them ruling Waterdeep, thats them having the ability to give suggestions to those that do without being written off immediately.
You claimed they rule the Silver Marches directly, when in fact Alustriel is the only Chosen affiliated with the region, and she no longer even rules in Silverymoon. When her position is in fact one of an overseer and peacekeeper of the pact that keeps the region as loosely united as it is and the individual cities govern themselves (as recent novels set there have made obvious).
You claimed they dominate the Dalelands, when they do no such thing. A few live there, but they keep all but completely out of the region's politics, and do little more than defend the place when it is attacked (which, as I said once before, anyone would do for their home).
You claimed they have powerful influence in Cormyr, when their influence is in fact no better than it is in Waterdeep.
You claimed the rulers of Tethyr are their puppets put there by the Chosen in spite of the fact that they are in fact the rightful rulers of the nation, did most of the reclaiming of the throne totally independent of the Chosen, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the Chosen have any more influence over them than over Cormyr or Waterdeep - the ability to have advice taken seriously by friends.
And to top it all off you claimed they are omnipresent, omnipotent beings across all these huge regions, when they have never wanted to be or tried to be, when that wouldn't even be physically possible if they wanted to be (they can only prepare so many teleportations and scryings daily, and filling out every slot they have with them would be idiocy since they would have little power to defend themselves), and when it is a well-known fact that their primary tasks as Chosen would prevent them from being such even if they wanted to be and could be (again - defending the Weave, advancing magical research, spreading and teaching magic, and doing errands for Mystra are those tasks).
And of course, as Philalexandros and GD have said, you completely ignore the influence wielded by evil organizations in those regions, which often exceeds that of the Chosen. The churches of some evil deities alone are often far more influential than the Chosen, let alone things like Red Wizard enclaves or Zhentarim spies.
You're not asserting that because the Chosen have power there is no evil in Faerûn, you're asserting that the Chosen's power is far greater than it actually is and the evil organizations' powers are far less than they actually are, often to a ridiculous degree. Thats the straw man argument here.
Zevox
I was going to trim your post down some, but I want to ask you a question. Somewhere in this thread someone stated Mystra had worshippers that were evil.
Can you name one?
Her High Cleric in Waterdeep is a high level, LE Necromancer.
And I would say that Larloch pays her more than lip service, too.
Explain how. And remember the chosen have silverfire that eats liches like lighter fluid eats charcoal. There have been a couple threads on this board concerning how any of the chosen could own Larloch. Why is it different now? And even if you do it as a straight level matchup, how could he threaten any of the big chosen? I'm sure he could deal with Storm or Dove.
I know -I've- never engaged in those threads. Larloch, as far as actual arcane knowledge and expertise goes, far exceeds that of the Chosen. The only difference, is that the Chosen wield Silverfire. If you go by the novels, that could directly destroy Larloch, IF he was idiotic enough to put himself in a position where he'd be in a directly visible line of sight. Which he wouldn't. And Larloch, on the other hand, could be in some remote Netherese tomb casting a massive ritual with a dozen of his Epic lich servitors, calling down fiery holocausts, maelstroms of negative energy, and hordes of demons through his many linked portals - if he so wished.
I was going to trim your post down some, but I want to ask you a question. Somewhere in this thread someone stated Mystra had worshippers that were evil.
Can you name one?
The High Priest of her temple in Waterdeep is Lawful Evil. I don't have the book that gives his name at the moment - I believe its City of Splendors - but I'm sure someone can provide that for you. Edit: Bleh, Dan beat me to it.
Note that Mystra still accepts priests of the same alignments as her predecessor, which means Lawful Evil clerics can join her priesthood any time.
Zevox
I was going to trim your post down some, but I want to ask you a question. Somewhere in this thread someone stated Mystra had worshippers that were evil.
Can you name one?
See above. Others (Zevox, GothicDan) have said it better than I.
No, no, no. For once one of you guys needs to back up what he says.
Explain how. And remember the chosen have silverfire that eats liches like lighter fluid eats charcoal.
...
So explain it.
Uhm, not to be rude, but pay attention this time--'cause I already did.
If you want to go by sheer gaming stats, Zsass Tam, a level 29 caster, is a match for any of the Chosen--Silver Fire or not.
Silver Fire, incidentally, can be released as a blast only once per 70 minutes or so. It does an average of 28 points of damage (which Szass Tamm can reduce to 14 about 50% of the time by making his Reflex save). In short, it's an overstated weapon in the gaming portion of the Realms.
So, to sum up, you're exaggerating. Badly.
There have been a couple threads on this board concerning how any of the chosen could own Larloch. Why is it different now? And even if you do it as a straight level matchup, how could he threaten any of the big chosen? I'm sure he could deal with Storm or Dove.
I don't really know what threads you're talking about and whom they were written by. There's a guy who posted on my Zaknafein thread trying to tell me that Drizzt was a Moon Elf, too, but I assure you I'm not taking him seriously.
As written up, Larloch is a 32nd level Epic Lich Wizard. He has ridiculous power, and asserting that a single of the Chosen could "own" him can only be done in defiance of gaming probability (given that, where dice are concerned, many things are possible).
Anyways, have fun storming the castle!
Spellfire the new diplomatic immunity. ;)
P.S: ShadowDale 'The Tearing of the Weave'. I predict a train wreck.
Meleghost Starseer -- the "Magister of Mystra" -- is the head priest of the House of Wonder in Waterdeep. See Steven's City of Splendors and Eric's more recent CoS:W tome.
Meleghost is the head priest in Waterdeep (he's not even a priest, he's necromancer/arcane devotee), aye. There is a plot going on to unseat him though (detailed in the CoS:W) - one which I think has been going for sometime, and hasn't borne fruit though. (And, I might add, this is one fight the Chosen who live(d) in Waterdeep don't appear to have got involved with!)
However, I think something needs to be restated here. Abeir-Toril is not a monothesic world that just happens to have a lot of little religions... It is a truely polythesic world. The whole idea of having a single patron deity who looks after your soul in the afterlife does not automatically mean you don't pray to other gods at all.
Mystra has a huge number of people who look to her - from the grudging to the completely faithful. Most priests fall into the latter category - but there are quite a few non-priests who do too. Anyone who wields magic gives Mystra strength, and more than a few evil wizards and/or sorcerers worship her sincerely. Just because they don't all get write ups in the source material, doesn't mean they don't exist at all.
Meleghost is an example of an old worshiper of Mystra LN, who has continued in the faith. It's only been 16 years since Midnight took over, and there are plenty of the old guard left. The old Mystra was LN, the new is NG, and Faiths and Pantheons states that Mystra is treated as both those alignments with regard to the one step rule. Older priests can be LG, LN, LE, TN. Newer priests can be LG, NG, CG, TN. Unless there's been a huge amount of attrition among her priests in the last 16 years, there will still be a good number of evil priests... And her lay faithful, being unrestricted in alignment, probably run the full gamut.
Tiamat2 - that earlier comment was not intended to belittle your ability to read, it was an honest question. I can't fathom how you can come to the conclusions you are if you've seriously read up on the Chosen and how to use them, or not use them in a campaign. Maybe you have a radically different point of view of the material, which thinking on it seems to be the case, but it is seriously eluding me since you seem to have a handle on the material mechanically, but thematically you're just miles away from what was intended for the setting, at least as far as I understand it.
So yeah, Mystra's Chosen are still a problem.
They're a problem because of the 'nature' of evil? That doesn't even make sense...
Of course it does. The nature of evil demands a propagation of those to oppose it, ensuring that no matter how much evil there is, good will always have the power to neutralize it (or evil will neutralize itself), thus balancing out the cosmic scale, which favors good more than evil, thus in actuality, good always wins!
Ok, so I made that blither and blather up as I went.....
Made that up as I went too... for balances sake.
But if evil is effectively self-regulating, given its tendency to oppose itself after a fashion, why does that need to result in a proliferation of goodness, other than to oppose and balance whatever evil is remaining? Besides, what sort of person would actually want to live in an evil society by choice, unless they were on the upper ends of the food chain?
Made that up as I went too... for balances sake.
Because evil is simultaneously self propagating (evil is always being replenished...greed! fruit of mortality) as well in order to overcome good, which in turn propagates to overcome evil (good also neutralizes itself as well, via morality, beauracies, laws, blah). However, in the end the result is the status qoue, which ultimately favors good over evil (there isn't a profit or room for selfishness when nothing changes either for or against you).
As to the kind of person, do you really need to ask:P The poor bugger that doesn't have a choice of course.
Of course, I'm really just tossing out BS:P
Actually, just noticed, my first reply works even better by changing the words around.
The nature of good demands a propagation of those to oppose it, ensuring that no matter how much good there is, evil will always have the power to neutralize it (or good will neutralize itself), thus balancing out the cosmic scale, which still favors good more than evil, thus in actuality, good always wins!
No, but I was just making it up as I went... though I'm thoroughly confused as to what you were trying to say there about good and evil now... think it's time to go sleep or something, brain just stopped working.
I'm pretty sure I wasn't actually saying anything:P I was simply mirroring creyzi, providing an alternative choice of words for what I presume he/she was trying to say.
However this is a very shallow way of looking at things.
Good does not always support good.
Two people, both of LG alignment, may just be blood enemies due to societal, familial or other reasons.
They may even both be palidins of the same LG diety.
Most of the NPCs presented in the source books are not part of adventuring parties. They do not regularly get together to "kick some tail". In fact, many times they disagree about what to do with situations. The people the Chosen influence are also their own individuals and they have their own opinions and motivations that may or may not line up with the Chosen's.
It's not a black and white world, there are MANY shades of grey.
Further, the world is NOT safe. From orcs and goblins to beholders and illidiths the "good races" face severe threats from all around and that colors things even more. If the Chosen took out the Zhents then the monsterous races would more than likely level Zhentil Keep, which would in turn destabalize the entirety of the Moonsea region, making the distribution of goods difficult (and when the distribution of goods is difficult people end up starving)
I guess, in the end, it comes down to me being able to handle the Chosen in whatever way I feel like handling them and I have no problem with this. Others do and that's fine.
Tiamat2,
First, do you even like the Realms as presented in the FRCS 3.X (I believe it's 3.0)? Is it the Chosen that bother you? Is it all the high level characters overall?
The Simbul's post is stating that you can still adventure in the Realms, using many different tactics for dealing with the native NPCs.
I don't like the Realms as presented in 3.0/3.5, but my main problems are the Chosen, their actions, and their new Goddess. TSR, using the Chosen and Midnight/Mystra, introduced numerous new elements to the setting that, in my mind, damaged the balance of power beyond usability. Wizards' solution to this, instead of undoing the damage (with the exception of Bane's return), has been to introduce even more new elements in the form of large numbers of new epic level evil characters, most of which are about as useful as the avatar statistics in Faiths and Pantheons. But that's beside the point.
The Simbul's main point was that people shouldn't burden the boards or the Simbul's apparently delicate sensibilities where the Chosen are concerned by posting their myriad of ways of minimizing the Chosen's influence in their campaigns. The Original Poster said that there is no reason to minimize the Chosen because there is plenty of Faerun to adventure in that doesn't involve the Chosen at all (and no one knows this better than me, since my campaign settings are always deliberately selected to avoid the Chosen; though I'm getting sick of having to do that, even if I love Chessenta, players do not; all you have to do is not use 90% of the published gaming material). The Original Post then goes on to rail that the Chosen shouldn't be used to tackle 2nd level aristocrats and other minor plots. The post concludes by saying that demographics alone suggest that the Chosen can be left out of any adventure.
Even if you think that the Chosen don't rule the Silver Marches, Aglarond, the Dalelands, Tethyr, or wherever, you have to at least agree the Chosen influence most longer campaign arcs in those regions if those arcs involve anything more than low level dungeon crawling and petty villainy. If you create a villain in Tethyr that deposes the Chosen's puppets there, you are being negligent as a DM if you don't explain why the Chosen don't intervene. If you are setting a campaign in the Silver Marches where several members elect to pull out of Alustriel's union, then how can you not explain what Alustriel is doing to combat that. If you have a force of evil elves invade the Dalelands to drive the humans out, you simply must involve the Chosen that live there or explain why they aren't there fighting for lands they repeatedly have defended in the past. Waterdeep apparently has changed as a result of the novel's intervention, but if you want the Unseen to be successful in subverting a majority of the Lords, how can you not explain why the Chosen aren't investigating or operating against this menace?
I've conceded repeatedly that you can run low level dungeon crawls or low level plots without ever even caring what the Chosen are doing. But if you want do do something else, if you want to try to reverse some of the TSR's damage to the setting's political balance of power, you have to think about the Chosen and what they would do OR you have to do what the Simbul says is irrational, and explain the Chosen out of the hook/campaign.
There are tons of problems with Mystra's Chosen that I could go into. Almost no one still posting in this thread would agree with me. However, what I find hard to believe is that fans of the Chosen in this thread are so eager to back up the Original Poster's rant that they are willing to argue that the Chosen have almost no influence over anything that happens in the central and northern parts of Faerun where they dwell and, I'm sorry to say this but its true, sometimes rule. The one "problem" with the Chosen that people should be able to agree on (and most people seemed to not more than 24 hours ago) is that the Chosen's presence in the Forgotten Realms and their specific geographic scope close off a large number of campaign hooks unless you want to:
a. Delete the Chosen
b. Make them unrealistically inactive
c. Involve them at some level
That should be a fairly easy point to get across and it is the opposite point that Simbul was making, but it seems I'm wrong.
That would be like if I said I liked any organization that had Elves in it... And I'm not a big fan of the EV at all. Bleah.
I don't like the Realms as presented in 3.0/3.5, but my main problems are the Chosen, their actions, and their new Goddess. (...)
I see your point. I don't like the Chosen (at least as they are portrayed), the heavy emphasis on them and the plethora of material dedicated to them either. But I think you're letting your dislike for the Chosen muddle your view on the matter. You could have complained just as well, "If I want to set a campaign in Cormyr that revolves around some nobles ganging up on the Crown, I simply have to involve Alusair, Caladnei and their ilk, and that's bad." Or what if Aglarond had, say, a wizard-king who's not a Chosen? Whatever you do, you have to take the rulers and shakers into account, whoever they are. Some happen to be Chosen - but if you deleted them, you'd have to put someone else in their place in most cases. So the head of the Silver Marches is one of the Seven Sisters. Delete her, and you need another head of the Silver Marches whose inactivity you'd have to explain if you wanted a campaign like the one you suggested.
Or could it be that you generally dislike powerful NPCs, that you want the players to be the mightiest and most influential figures of the campaign? (I'm just asking, I really don't know.) In this case I'd have to say that the Realms are geographically vast and in form and content extremely detailed, requiring powerful figures on both sides - such a place wouldn't make even a modicum of sense if you left out any powerful NPCs and ruled that the heads of states are pushovers the player characters can overcome without too much of an effort.
If this is the case, I'd like to recommend Midnight - insurmountably powerful evilness wherever you look, and not a single goody two-shoes author's darling to be found - and if one should dare to pop up, she'll get eaten by orcs.
DB
You could have complained just as well, "If I want to set a campaign in Cormyr that revolves around some nobles ganging up on the Crown, I simply have to involve Alusair, Caladnei and their ilk, and that's bad." Or what if Aglarond had, say, a wizard-king who's not a Chosen? Whatever you do, you have to take the rulers and shakers into account, whoever they are. Some happen to be Chosen - but if you deleted them, you'd have to put someone else in their place in most cases. So the head of the Silver Marches is one of the Seven Sisters. Delete her, and you need another head of the Silver Marches whose inactivity you'd have to explain if you wanted a campaign like the one you suggested.
DB
I am sure you can see, though, the difference between an independent King of Aglarond, an independent head of the Silver Marches, a Waterdeep with no Chosen lords but powerful wizards in their ranks, a Dalelands with powerful, but non-Chosen NPC's dwelling there, and a Tethyr where the rulers are the same power level, but were not put there with the assistance of Chosen, and what we have now. If I want a campaign in the Silver Marches, I have to deal with a Chosen head of the Confederation. If I want a campaign in Tethyr, I have to deal with a King put in place by Chosen. If I want a campaign in Aglarond, I have to deal with a Chosen Queen. If I want a campaign in the Dalelands, I have to deal with the 2-3 Chosen in residence there. If I say the Chosen are everywhere, people will rise up and point out all the locations they aren't, but my goodness . . . the Chosen are in a lot of places and as a percentage of campaign material its even greater.
Edit: Although I don't think I'm making my points very well anyway (mostly because my posts are too long and people don't seem to want to read everything I say, and I don't blame them), I should cut my posting down in this thread. Two of my better posts were nearly completely ignored because I responded too fast to other people's points.
Edit 2: Kerym makes a wonderful point below in his last paragraph. I would post below it, but that would seem a waste. Still, a very good point.
The one "problem" with the Chosen that people should be able to agree on (and most people seemed to not more than 24 hours ago) is that the Chosen's presence in the Forgotten Realms and their specific geographic scope close off a large number of campaign hooks unless you want to:
a. Delete the Chosen
b. Make them unrealistically inactive
c. Involve them at some level
That should be a fairly easy point to get across and it is the opposite point that Simbul was making, but it seems I'm wrong.
On point b;
Why is it unrealistic to have them doing something else or hemed in by outside forces? Is it that your players are going "Well, where are the Chosen? They should be handling this!!!"? Or is it just personal opinon (ie. you have not had the problem come up but it's still something that bothers you)?
If it's the players clamoring about the Chosen stepping in then you simply have to police your players better, inform them that they have no clue what the Chosen are doing. If they continue to complain, well, tell them that they may find out what's happening with them in the future but they are distracting from the game.
If it's just an opinion, well, then feel free to knock levels off them/limit their influence in, IYO, a more feesible way/remove them or whatever.
My own opinion on why there is so much focus on these characters and high level characters in general is the "I want something bigger!" mentality. El used to be FAR less powerful than he is now, this is, IMO, because the fan base of Dungeons and Dragons wants things to be more uber. I find such attitudes to be imbalancing and when I feel that things go to far I take steps to correct them.
I am sure you can see, though, the difference between an independent King of Aglarond, an independent head of the Silver Marches, a Waterdeep with no Chosen lords but powerful wizards in their ranks, a Dalelands with powerful, but non-Chosen NPC's dwelling there, and a Tethyr where the rulers are the same power level, but were not put there with the assistance of Chosen, and what we have now. If I want a campaign in the Silver Marches, I have to deal with a Chosen head of the Confederation. If I want a campaign in Tethyr, I have to deal with a King put in place by Chosen. If I want a campaign in Aglarond, I have to deal with a Chosen Queen. If I want a campaign in the Dalelands, I have to deal with the 2-3 Chosen in residence there. If I say the Chosen are everywhere, people will rise up and point out all the locations they aren't, but my goodness . . . the Chosen are in a lot of places and as a percentage of campaign material its even greater.
I don't understand your reasoning here. Yes, the Chosen cover a good deal of the map, at least theoretically, and they feature prominently in the most prominent and detailed places of the setting. The humans cover an awful lot of the map, too. Sail to Evermeet, and you're bound to meet elves. Visit Mithral Hall, and you'll come across dwarves. That in itself isn't saying anything, unless you happen to not like dwarves - which wouldn't be the setting's fault.
So you don't seem to have a problem with powerful good NPCs, but beyond that I really don't see your point, I'm sorry.
DB
Honestly, I see your idea of 'powerful wizards' as a worse idea than the Chosen. The Chosen at least have a set of guidelines and restraints upon them that a lot of others just don't have to go by. Vangerdahast was a lot more prone to react to things overtly than El ever was, with El often telling him to reign it in, at least from what I recall of their interactions. Again, they have the perspective of being able to outlive short term setbacks, and being able to correct the situation over the long term, after your PCs are dead. Because you aren't worth their notice is a perfectly valid reason for them not to get involved. In case you haven't noticed, they have a rather live and let live attitude most of the time, and don't get directly involved in much of anything that they don't want to. Individual Harpers are more of a 'problem' than they are, quite honestly.
Seriously, would Lashan of Scardale have been as successful as he was if the Chosen were as vigilant as you think they are? Wouldn't they have put him down rather than waiting for an Army to do it for them? Why do we have Zhents, Cormyreans, and Sembians still in occupation in Scardale? Shouldn't the Chosen have stepped in by now and put an end to that foreign influence? Why haven't they chased off the Drow infesting Cormanthyr? Why did it take Randal Morn so long to reclaim Daggerdale? If the Chosen are as active against evil as you want them to be, those situations would never have arisen in the first place, or been very short term at best if it somehow slipped past them for a bit. The only conclusion I see to draw there is that you're just wrong on your take on the Chosen if an area that has three of them is so far outside of their control.
To say that the Chosen don't affect the planning of a campaign or the execution of such however is a complete fallacy. They are a published concern, and thusly need to be accounted for, one way or another. To say that they have other things to do, etc. is simply one of many methods of handling them.
Tempus doesn't have a Chosen.
In fact, if you read Tempus's entry in F&A, it would seem to set-up the Lord of Battles as a deity who is unlikely to have anything resembling a Chosen. This is because Tempus appears to show his favor for both sides in a conflict, or even the most valorous for example. As I see it, a Chosen on one side or another, during a conflict, would actually contradict established Tempuran dogma.
I've heard it said that the best model we've seen of a favoured servant of the Lord of Battles is Baergil's valiant sacrifice in All Shadows Fled. And I agree with that.
Actually he does
i forgot who it is atm but when i remeber im gonna comeback here and slap you in the face with charon's claw lol
Actually he does
i forgot who it is atm but when i remeber im gonna comeback here and slap you in the face with charon's claw lol
I believe this about as much as I believe Artemis is the best assasin in the Realms.
Of anyone I have ever seen, Sage has the largest command of Realmsian knowledge. The guy can quote dragon articles (I assume this is because of a database but it could just be straight up knowledge) for Tyr's sake.
Has a comprehensive list of known chosen (I believe), and Tempus isn't on it. Old Sage, you saving time by copy and pasting replies from both forums?:P
The Original Poster said that there is no reason to minimize the Chosen because there is plenty of Faerun to adventure in that doesn't involve the Chosen at all (and no one knows this better than me, since my campaign settings are always deliberately selected to avoid the Chosen; though I'm getting sick of having to do that, even if I love Chessenta, players do not; all you have to do is not use 90% of the published gaming material).
You keep mentioning this, but you have yet to plausibly argue how the Chosen somehow hold as much influence over the territories you list as you claim they do.
The Original Post then goes on to rail that the Chosen shouldn't be used to tackle 2nd level aristocrats and other minor plots.
Why would they be to begin with?
Using them as such would be akin to the Avengers from Marvel Comics chasing down every small-time drug dealer they could find. There's no doubt that they would be incredibly effective in such pursuits, but the Avengers don't do this because they realize that this would allow gentlemen like Doctor Doom or the time-travelling Kang the Conqueror to wreak havoc on a global scale.
Correspondingly, there's a plethora of activity to undertake as an adventurer, privateer, mercenary, bodyguard, etc., that in no way involves the Chosen. A DM doesn't have to worry about involving the Chosen in his players' quest to break the hold of a burgeoning Assassins' Guild in the Heartlands region because the Chosen should be too busy forcing a balance of power with the City of Shade (for example).
The post concludes by saying that demographics alone suggest that the Chosen can be left out of any adventure.
That goes without saying. There are simply too many things to do, and the Chosen can't address even a fraction of it.
Even if you think that the Chosen don't rule the Silver Marches, Aglarond, the Dalelands, Tethyr, or wherever, you have to at least agree the Chosen influence most longer campaign arcs in those regions if those arcs involve anything more than low level dungeon crawling and petty villainy.
First, the Chosen don't have to influence anything. That is up to you as the DM.
Second, the Chosen *don't* influence those regions as much as you pretend they do. Alustriel *doesn't* have the power to tell each state in her confederacy where to march and how. Her character, in fact, is such that her respect for individual freedom prevents the Silver Marches from being a strong, centralized state. The Dalelands, similarly, in no way follow a Chosen "agenda." As stated repeatedly, neither Sylune, Elminster, or Storm maintain any measurable level of control over the social, cultural, religious, or political institutions of the Dalelands. Do I really have to go on? Any of this should have been painfully, blatantly obvious for anyone reading through the FRCS.
If you create a villain in Tethyr that deposes the Chosen's puppets there, ...
They're not the Chosen's puppets. That, in and of itself, wrecks your whole argument. No Chosen works behind the scenes to ensure Lhaeo and his queen-regent's rule.
If you are setting a campaign in the Silver Marches where several members elect to pull out of Alustriel's union, then how can you not explain what Alustriel is doing to combat that.
Again, you're completely misrepresenting the Silver Marches as described. Alustriel forces no one to be in her confederation to begin with.
If you have a force of evil elves invade the Dalelands to drive the humans out, you simply must involve the Chosen that live there or explain why they aren't there fighting for lands they repeatedly have defended in the past.
Why then do the Zhentarim invade the Dalelands repeatedly without Elminster doing something to stop them? Why then did Myth-Drannor remain a haven for Drow and Devils until a Chosen-less army of Elves arrive to drive them out?
I've conceded repeatedly that you can run low level dungeon crawls or low level plots without ever even caring what the Chosen are doing. But if you want do do something else, if you want to try to reverse some of the TSR's damage to the setting's political balance of power, you have to think about the Chosen and what they would do OR you have to do what the Simbul says is irrational, and explain the Chosen out of the hook/campaign.
Who's using irrational methodology here? If you want to have a changing of the guard, there's nothing that prevents the DM from doing so. The whole introduction of the FRCS specifically uses the theme of a changing of the guard. If you wish to play the villain instead, then the Chosen serve a role no different than that which the Red Wizards would (for example) against heroes. If you simply want to change political realities, then DO SO. Make FR more dystopian; create your own version of the Realms.
Almost no one still posting in this thread would agree with me.
This is because you have continuously misrepresented several things from the get go. I don't begrudge you the right to dislike cherry pie, but be honest about why you don't like it: don't tell me it's because it tastes like honey.
However, what I find hard to believe is that fans of the Chosen in this thread are so eager to back up the Original Poster's rant that they are willing to argue that the Chosen have almost no influence over anything that happens in the central and northern parts of Faerun where they dwell and, I'm sorry to say this but its true, sometimes rule.
Um, no, you're just putting words in peoples' mouths now.
The Chosen close off nothing that doesn't involve global-scale detente between epic good and epic evil. When the PCs reach that level, there is absolutely nothing stopping the DM from handing off the reins to them. Chosen die, disappear, or get old and decide to retire. There's ample evidence of all three.
Anyway, perhaps I'll respond to some of the other posts later. Or perhaps not. It really bugs me that we can't even get past basic terms like "ruler" and "of" and "the" and "Silver" and "Marches", but I'm not sure how else to phrase it.
"Alustriel Female human (Chosen of Mystra) Wiz20/Sor2/Acm2: CR 28; Medium-size humanoid (5 ft. 11 in. tall); . . .The longtime high lady of Silverymoon and new ruler of the Silver Marches. . ."
From: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010117c&pf=true
Edit: I feel so sad for ruining what I thought was such a short and elegant post, but the eminent poster above has claimed he was not quoting my post out of context. How strange, for he takes several sections from my summary of the Simbul's post and claims they are my own arguments, then takes a section where I said most people would not agree with my reasons for disliking the Chosen and acts as though it applies to my point on the Chosen's influence within certain areas of the Realms. Other examples exist, but why bother. The poster above is like Faraer and I'll say nothing more.
Actually he does
No, he doesn't. My earlier post about Tempuran dogma should make it clear why he doesn't.
i forgot who it is atm but when i remeber im gonna comeback here and slap you in the face with charon's claw lol
I'll be waiting. And waiting. And waiting... ;)
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=9194𫥙
Has a comprehensive list of known chosen (I believe), and Tempus isn't on it.
That particular listing was proven to be slightly inaccurate.
Here is the more up-to-date listing of 'Chosen' officially referenced in the Realmslore.
Old Sage, you saving time by copy and pasting replies from both forums?:P
My 'No Chosen of Tempus" post actually comes from the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ that I'm presently compiling. Since it is a question that comes up every so often, I felt it would be worthwhile having a particular reply written specifically for this particular frequently asked question.
The most frustrating thing about this thread is the fact that, time and time again several posters have used information taken directly out of the products under discussion, only for you to either ignore said citations completely or to try to counter it with what measures up to *opinion.*
You can repeat the same, tired comments about Chosen-controlled areas, but to what end? I challenge you to cite an instance within the FRCS that, for example, even implies a level of control the Chosen have over the monarchs of Tethyr. There is none. The only reference to the Chosen is the qualification that Haedrack III is, actually, Lhaeo. You can assume that Lhaeo, who by the way isn't even the predominant monarch, answers to Elminster, but you do so with no evidence whatsoever and out of context of the relationship Lhaeo and Elminster are described as having shared.
Even better, cite the level of control you imply is over the Dalelands. The closest the FRCS approaches what you describe is the decades-old instance of Khelben suggesting a candidate for lordship in Shadowdale--a state that traditionally appoints leaders via popular acclaim. You couldn't; for you to do so, you'd have to ignore the fact that the Zhentarim, Sembia, Cormyr, the Drow, and now the Elves of Evermeet have at one time or another invaded, influenced, manipulated, or reclaimed territories here--without the Chosen raising even a FINGER.
Or, let's go with your Alustriel example. Since you state she controls the Silver Marches, why not actually look at the FRCS and see what it has to say. Hmmm, let's see: she "reached out to the rulers" of other states; "after much debate" the various states decided (of their own accord!) to join a "mutual defense pact." Nonetheless, the very next paragraph describes how this "confederation" is not perfect, and how a plethora of enemies keep it in more or less constant, serious danger.
As for quoting people out of context? Please.
And, no, you don't have to "open new windows" and such. You merely have to hit "Post Reply" and scroll down to view any other posts while typing up your own.
I wish I could learn that trick to cut up people's posts and portray most sentences out of context, while at the same time looking like I'm responding to everything point by point. I assume it has to do with using the /quote command, but the only way I can figure out how to do it is open a new window with the person's post repeatedly and copy and paste. That's too much work for so little return.
You open quotes by putting the word quote in these brakets [] You can also do a quote=username in order to attribute the quote to someone, ie
I can learn how to quote!
Anyway, perhaps I'll respond to some of the other posts later. Or perhaps not. It really bugs me that we can't even get past basic terms like "ruler" and "of" and "the" and "Silver" and "Marches", but I'm not sure how else to phrase it.
Ok, why is it a problem that Alustriel managed to set up the Silver Marches confederation? She did set the confederation up. She will try and keep the confederation together. Give me an example where she would become a major obsticle in getting Lord X, Y or Z to get out of the Silver Marches alliance. Please. I'm so sick of trying to understand where your problem with the situation really lies that I'm just about done with this conversation (and I think you're a-ok, I'm sure that if this thread doesn't sour your experience on these boards that we will have some wonderful conversations about the Realms)
So please, give me some concrete examples of the Chosen's "heartland's adventure ruining" ways.
You can repeat the same, tired comments about Chosen-controlled areas, but to what end? I challenge you to cite an instance within the FRCS that, for example, even implies a level of control the Chosen have over the monarchs of Tethyr. There is none. The only reference to the Chosen is the qualification that Haedrack III is, actually, Lhaeo. You can assume that Lhaeo, who by the way isn't even the predominant monarch, answers to Elminster, but you do so with no evidence whatsoever and out of context of the relationship Lhaeo and Elminster are described as having shared.
I believe the sentence in question would be from the "Regional History" section of Tethyr, the begining of the second paragraph;
"Two long-forgotten scions of the noble line have been placed on the throne and, with the secret backing of powerful foreign wizards, have established order again."
So, yes, the FRCS does seem to imply that "powerful foreign wizards" would get involved.
I feel that this is a pretty blatent missrepresentation of the events in Tethyr and COMPLETELY discredits Zaranda and all the work she did but it's right in the FRCS.
I really think that this gives a very incorrect feel to how Tethyr really is, I'm of the opinion that Zaranda and Haedrak can't afford to be "influenced by powerful foreign wizards" because sooner or later their nobility will get rid of them if they feel they are puppets for anyone (other than themselves).
So yes, there is a sentence.
The problem is that bad guys backstab each other. Thus making their powerful champions weaker because Mystra's chosen outnumber them a dozen to one.
So yeah, Mystra's Chosen are still a problem.
To those stupid enough to backstab their own allies? Yes, quite a problem. :whatsthis
They're a problem because of the 'nature' of evil? That doesn't even make sense...
Replace 'nature' with 'what I understand of the nature'.
Shadez, are you ready for a break?
That Elminster placed Lhaeo on the throne is a given. Tiamat, however, claims that she cannot have her group adventure in Tethyr due to the control the Chosen allegedly have there. How does the above sentence in the state's write-up reinforces this notion?
The puppets of the Chosen (...)
By the way, Tiamat2, the Chosen had little to do with the decision if Haedrak should reclaim Tethyr's throne. King Alemander himself sent his pregnant wife, Queen Rhinda, away so she could give birth to the prince someplace safe (in this case Silverymoon). The king's reasons for hiding his second son from his people were many, but the major reason was his constant warring with his elder son Alemander (who wanted to become Alemander V, of course), and the boy was easily swayed to positions that countered his father's but favored lesser nobles whom the prince believed were his allies. The king, not the Chosen, wanted Haedrak to rule after him, rather than the officious and greedy Alemander. He gave Rhinda the freedom to see to Haedrak's education and safety, stipulating only that he was to learn of magic to combat the spies of Calimshan when he reached the throne. (And who better to teach the Art than old El?)
DB
Ok, why is it a problem that Alustriel managed to set up the Silver Marches confederation? She did set the confederation up. She will try and keep the confederation together. Give me an example where she would become a major obsticle in getting Lord X, Y or Z to get out of the Silver Marches alliance. Please. I'm so sick of trying to understand where your problem with the situation really lies that I'm just about done with this conversation (and I think you're a-ok, I'm sure that if this thread doesn't sour your experience on these boards that we will have some wonderful conversations about the Realms)
So please, give me some concrete examples of the Chosen's "heartland's adventure ruining" ways.
I think you're wonderful, too. In fact, though I've disagreed with most of what you've said, I think you, unlike several others, have been at least somewhat fair and always civil (my literacy has never been put into question by you and I'm so grateful for that).
My somewhat unpleasant reference to Alustriel is because certain other posters have denied that she rules the Silver Marches. I haven't quite understood why they deny that she's the ruler of the Silver Marches, but the thrust of their argument has been that since she doesn't wield absolute power in the region, she doesn't have to be taken into account when you're setting political campaigns in the Silver Marches area. It would never occur me if I were setting a campaign in the Silver Marches that involved several members seceding that Alustriel wouldn't try to combat the breakup of her confederation through some means (yes, almost assuredly non-violent negotiation, but Alustriel would be involved in this story arc).
Is this a bad thing that you must involve Chosen in that kind of campaign? That's up to you to decide. My point is that you must involve them or engage in the irrational behavior that the Simbul refers to: deleting Chosen or making them unrealistically inactive. If Alustriel does not attempt to hold together the Silver Marches in that campaign hook, you have made her unrealistically inactive. Even if you just write in your DM notes, in case the players want to know, that Alustriel has visited the leaders of your secessionists and has not convinced them to remain in the Silver Marches, she's involved!
If you set a campaign in Waterdeep (prior to certain novels, which I don't have access to), that involves high level political intrigue or even mid-level political intrigue, it would be incredibly negligent for you, as DM, to not have notes somewhere explaining what Lord Khelben Blackstaff's reaction to this plot is or would be if its brought to his attention. If you don't plan a little for this contingency, you are not being very faithful to the source material. Certainly I don't need to list the occasions where Khelben has intervened in some way to save Waterdeep. Again, you can engage in the Original Poster's "irrational" behavior by deleting Khelben or making him unrealistically inactive. Failing that, he has to be involved in some way at some point in time because if Khelben Blackstaff leaves Waterdeep for some reason and returns to it later to find it ruled by the High King of Shadowy Darkness, he's going to react (unless he never comes back, and then you've deleted him).
I would list something similar for Aglarond, but people seem to have dropped the line of argument that Queen Simbul doesn't wield influence in Aglarond, and I would prefer to discuss the more controversial scenario that so upset some involving politics in Tethyr.
Lands of Intrigue goes into great detail about how Haedrak III came to raise support for his cause in Waterdeep and was aided by Chosen. The Chosen had an interest in securing a stable monarchy in Tethyr and they were, unfortunately some of us might think, successful in TSR's universe. If you script a campaign where the Thione's or another Pretender (Hhune, who is married to a Thione for example) launch another civil war or a coup and replace Haedrak III and Zaranda, I think you would be remiss, again as a DM, if you don't have in your notes why the Chosen aren't getting involved in this situation. Here, perhaps, is our first shades of grey situation where a case could be made that problems closer to home are keeping the Chosen busy and they don't time for Tethyr this time around. But, you have to explain that somewhere, if the players happen to create a situation where they want to know that information and they are entitled to it. You need, as a DM, to involve the Chosen in that way, at least. If you don't, you are faced with the Original Post's irrational behavior of deleting them or making them unrealistically inactive. At some point, if they don't die, the Chosen will turn back to Tethyr down the road and you should plan for that eventuality if you want to be faithful to the material presented.
I got lost in rhetoric in this thread a long time ago and I don't think my change in goal has been broadly accepted. My initial rant on the Chosen was too ambitious for this thread, so I narrowed my goal to responding directly to the Simbul's original post. I've tried to summarize that position several times, but I'll try to be more clear. My goal has been to refute the Original Post by showing that in many cases, you have no choice where the Chosen are concerned except to:
1. Involve them
2. Make them unrealistically inactive to the point that you don't even have notes on what they are doing
3. Delete them
The original post makes the opposite point. It states, clearly, that you should not need to do one of these three things for a campaign or hook. The mistake in rhetoric that the original post makes is that it does not limit the geographic scope of its point. It attempts to make its argument applicable to all of Faerun. My point for most of my posts in this thread has been to refute that, by showing there are many, many campaign hooks in the regions I've listed that you simply must choose #1, #2 or #3 where the Chosen are concerned to be faithful to the gaming products.
And that's my point: the original post makes a false point and its harsh method of delivery of a false point makes it worthy of rebuttal.
PS. This was very long and I'm sure will be cut to pieces, but I hope I've been a little clearer.
I did not state my personal problems with involving the Chosen in the campaign hooks I've listed. I could, but would anyone care?
No, he doesn't. My earlier post about Tempuran dogma should make it clear why he doesn't.
I'll be waiting. And waiting. And waiting... ;)
Arrg omg you were right i cant remeber where i saw chosen of tempus.. but anyway i bow to your supior nerd i mean.. well yeah i ment nerd
I did not state my personal problems with involving the Chosen in the campaign hooks I've listed. I could, but would anyone care?
I would!
In all honesty, I think this debate would be served much more by empirical evidence on how this affects someone's campaign. Otherwise, we're mired in a circular argument that deals with how one interprets material (that I obviously believe does not serve your argument).
Arrg omg you were right i cant remeber where i saw chosen of tempus.. but anyway i bow to your supior nerd i mean.. well yeah i ment nerd
You're posting on the same site as him. There's not much room to talk. ;)
PS: enjoy your Uthegentel write-up.
Arrg omg you were right i cant remeber where i saw chosen of tempus.. but anyway i bow to your supior nerd i mean.. well yeah i ment nerd
While I won't completely deny the reality that you may have seen a 'Chosen of Tempus', I'll offer the possibility that it may have been a fan-based interpretation you were thinking about and had seen elsewhere.
Perhaps even on these boards.
(...) This was very long and I'm sure will be cut to pieces, but I hope I've been a little clearer.
As far as I'm concerned, you've been clear all the way, except for one IMHO quite important question you haven't answered yet. Why would taking archmage X into account be acceptable, and why do you feel taking an archmage that happens to be a Chosen into account is unacceptable? You replied, "The difference is, these are the Chosen", which didn't answer the question. Your 'political campaign in Waterdeep' example would be just the same with influential figures not named Blackstaff. (In a city this size it's inevitable to have powerful mages dealing with its safety, whatever their names and affiliations are.) By complaining that you would have to take the Blackstaff into account (for simplicity's sake let's say that's true), you're actually complaining that there are people in this city who are more powerful than the player characters and better suited to dealing with political intrigue. (This goes for your Silver Marches and Aglarond examples as well.) Why, of course there are. The Realms would be a strange place indeed if the player characters were the only ones who are able to solve problems of a certain magnitude. There are always bigger fish in the pond.
DB
you're actually complaining that there are people in this city who are more powerful than the player characters and better suited to dealing with political intrigue.
DB
Actually most of my personal problems involve them getting in the way of my villains, not my players.
If we start to discuss why involving the Chosen in X and Y is a problem, we are moving away from the original post and rebutting the original poster's point. The reason I've declined to engage in that kind of discussion is that people before seemed to want to stay on point, so I went back on point exclusively (well, almost, sorry). My point was to rebut the original post, which now I think I've done as well as I'm going to be able to and really regret making even one more comment on that rebuttal.
But shall we move on? I don't want to hijack the thread (which some might think I've already done, and if so, I'm sorry, I tried to stay on point).
DB
Shadez, are you ready for a break?
Such perfect timing, such grace!
I was ready for a break (and still am actually) ;)
A major problem with Mystra's Chosen is that they're portrayed and intended to be the Force that is More Powerful than your Players, when a core value to D&D is that your PCs are going to become Powerful by the end of the campaign. The Chosen trivialize the accomplishments of the PCs. The fact that they're also noxious DMPCs when that DM isn't you is also a problem.
I'm not suggesting that PCs are hardwired to never surpass the Chosen; that would be silly. I'm saying that the material seems to be tacitly presented in a way that suggests that the Chosen should always be the prime movers! "Point out the passage in the books" you say, but I'm totally aware that it's never explicitly stated. Instead, it's a pervasive impression that multiple readers over the years have noted...and complained about...ad nauseum, I know.
I think the problem a lot of people have with Mystra's Chosen is that you aren't supposed to become more powerful than the Chosen are no matter what you do. Since a lot of players want to play powerful alter egos, that causes some friction. I believe I read advice somewhere that Khelben Arunson, for one, should always be set to be some number of levels higher than your PCs.
Compound that with the fact that some distant game designer who isn't part of your gaming group basically built them into the campaign world from the ground up, and it breeds resentment.
It boils into an inescapable rage when players who want to read about the setting just can't avoid getting at least a little dose of Mystra's Chosen in just about every other book; they're just about everywhere in the novels.
I can't blame people who get the -impression- that the Forgotten Realms isn't intended to be a story about the players, but about Ed Greenwood's funky bunch. Wrong in intention that may be, but the taste and impression lingers regardless.
I totally understand, let it be known, that Ed Greenwood isn't standing there with a gun to my head while I DM his Forgotten Realms. I deal with the problem by simply IGNORING the Chosen, and I think that's the solution people should use.
But I do see where people have a problem with them. And I personally think they're as corny and stinky as ancient cheese.
I play D&D, and a part of D&D for the players, besides saving the day, and getting the gold and loot, is that part about becoming more powerful.
A major problem with Mystra's Chosen is that they're portrayed and intended to be the Force that is More Powerful than your Players, when a core value to D&D is that your PCs are going to become Powerful by the end of the campaign.
Sure, powerful. Not almighty. The Seven Sisters are roughly 650 years old IIRC - isn't it only fair that they wield a little more power than a twentyfive, thirty years old player character? And what about evil characters that are too powerful? Do they trivialize the characters, too, like, say, Sauron in the Coda LotR or MERP?
The fact that they're also noxious DMPCs when that DM isn't you is also a problem.
That means that every DM uses them this way? News to me.
Since a lot of players want to play powerful alter egos, that causes some friction.
I don't see the problem. If you want to play the most powerful beings on the entire continent, of course you're in trouble - but how many RPGs cater to players like these? How many settings assume that one day the characters will be the mightiest fighters / wizards / whatever alive?
It boils into an inescapable rage when players who want to read about the setting just can't avoid getting at least a little dose of Mystra's Chosen in just about every other book; they're just about everywhere in the novels.
Overuse, this I can agree with.
I can't blame people who get the -impression- that the Forgotten Realms isn't intended to be a story about the players, but about Ed Greenwood's funky bunch. Wrong in intention that may be, but the taste and impression lingers regardless.
I agree.
DB
With that said, I still don't see any reason for giving the Chosen any consideration beyond that of other, non-Chosen NPC with similar influence or experience, since they are not unique in those two qualities. If anything, large organizations like the Harpers or the various do-gooder churches of the Realms (such as the Triad, Lathander or Selune) have far more counter-antagonist potential than the Chosen. "Why didn't the Harpers meddle there?" "Why didn't the paladins of Tyr storm the dark one's fortress?" Why didn't Lathander send an avatar to smite this undead menace?
I think something else has been overlooked by Tiamat2 and a few others...
The vast majority of the Chosen of Mystra are CG in alignment. With the exception of Sylune (NG) and the Simbul (CN), the rest of the Sisters are CG. Elminster is CG. Khelben was LN. I don't know the alignments for the Silent Chosen and the Srinshee - the former I don't know anything at all about (though she made a cameo in Blackstaff), the latter I vaguely recall seeing her alignment somewhere, but can't remember - I think it is either CG or LN
Blackstaff spoiler:
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IMHO, Khelben is no longer an issue - the new Blackstaff (Tsarra) seems like she's probably CG, and is no where near as powerful, nor is she even Chosen. Laeral has taken up residence in the City of Hope.
Tiamat, I thought you explained yourself very well there. Came across loud and clear. Honestly, I did not mean to insult your literacy there, and I'm sorry it came across that way. I still don't agree with you, but I think the bits above apply pretty well to my feelings why that is.
I don't know the alignments for the Silent Chosen and the Srinshee - the former I don't know anything at all about (though she made a cameo in Blackstaff)...
Alvaerele Tasundrym held the position of Magister from 576 DR to 592 DR. She is referred to as "the Silent Chosen." Most do not even know that this particular Magister exists, but her position has become so very important as she acts as a guardian for those things that Mystra I wished to remain unknown (this includes knowledge like where the Srinshee is sleeping, as well as making certain that human, half-elven, and elven family trees are kept recorded and up-to-date). See Secrets of the Magister.
And here's a little from Ed -
"May 6, 2005: Hello again, all. Ed replies to Weiser_Cain’s query about the Chosen who “makes sure to keep human, half-elven, and elven family trees up to date so they don’t become lost. . . . Why would they become 'lost' and what does it mean to be lost?”
Hi. Here I simply meant a Magister who tries to record genealogies (not just of armigerous families, whom the Heralds are concerned with, but anyone, of high or low birth or station, who has within their family ranks someone with an aptitude for the Art [ = a wizard or sorcerer], which turns out to be most people). She works and works to record who married who and what offspring they had. This isn’t necessarily knowledge that the individuals she’s recording know, or will learn, and it may never make the slightest difference to their lives - - but it does mean that Mystra’s servants can follow genetic lines, if they want to, of persons with, say, spellfire, or an aptitude for water magic, or particular magic-related prestige classes, and so on.
(Note I said “if they want to;” thus far, few of the Chosen have bothered consulting this ever-accumulating genealogical work, for whatever reasons.)
Lineages become ‘lost’ for all sorts of reasons, of course, including warfare, disease, winterkill, slavery, monster attacks, fires that destroy local temple and family records, illiteracy and bad memory or lack of teaching (older family members to younger kin), and so on. Most ‘common folk’ in the Realms can accurately and fully trace their family tree back three generations at most, and ‘back beyond that’ is little more than a string of colourful tales and claims to be related to this or that king or local hero or villain.
So saith Ed.
Drifting close to real-world reality here, I’d say.
If that isn’t too trite or redundant a construction. Ah, I’m too weary to mind much just now. More Realmslore on the morrow!
love to all,
THO"
I can see your point there Friendlyfish. I don't agree with the assessment, but I can see where someone would be left with that impression if they don't have the breadth and depth of lore that some around here have been exposed to. . .
Some posters here use a frustrating tactic when arguing against someone. Rather than refuting their points, they continually point out that the other person either simply hasn't read the sources correctly or hasn't read them at all. I've read a ton of Forgotten Realms sources, almost none of which are novels, and I still think the Chosen are over-presented and featured prominently in many places(especially the AD&D sources, which contain far more Realmslore than the 3.0/3.5e sources). If we include the novels as part of our view of "canon" (which we are supposed to), then the Chosen become even more integral to the setting. Perhaps Ed Greenwood has made some replies to inquiries somewhere that give plausible scenarios for not involving the Chosen in political/intrigue/mid level campaigns set in the regions we've been discussing, but when people infer that information from gaming sources, that interpretation is not the only valid one and it certainly isn't the result of being able to read the products at a higher level than everyone else. The players can still be the stars of their own campaign and that campaign still suffer from the problem of necessary Chosen involvement on some level. That's a point, I think that eluded the original post and perhaps some others. Friendlyfish made some good points about many players' perception of the FR and that perception is not automatically wrong.
Also, one point I'd like to make is that even if the gaming materials and Realms sources open up new areas of the Realms where the Chosen aren't involved and probably never will be involved, these additional sources do not really reduce the role or power of the Chosen in the areas where they have long, established histories. Yes, posters who say you can set a campaign somewhere in Faerun and not involve the Chosen are correct. I've done it and I'm sure many people have. But you're on your own in these regions in a lot of areas. If you want to use a majority of the published materials, and especially if you're a fan of the novels and want to adventure in the same places as the most famous FR books (I'm not and for the most part don't, Tethyr excepted), you're right smack in the middle of the Chosen. They are there. They are the most talked about part of the FR, novels and gaming materials alike, and for people to think they are hard to get around is not an erroneous impression that comes from a lack of Realmslore.
Let me first say that I have no problem incorporating an NPC (or in the Chosens' case(s), DMPCs) into my ongoing plotlines. If I'm plotting an adventure in Shadowdale, I want to know where Elminster and Storm are, just as I want to know where Mourngrym and Farmer Joe might be. Regardless of the respective level and degree of impact of the character, I try to be thorough.
I mentioned earlier that my issue was with Epic characters, but after thinking about it during this thought provoking discussion, I realized that wasn't quite narrow enough. Characters who are defined by the general rules, whether they be 2nd level Rogues or 20th Wizard/5th Archmage, don't bother me. Its the "special" characters, for whom new and exclusive rules must be developed, that bother me. Unfortunately, the Chosen fall into this category. Why? Because the "special" rules seem to be the designers'/writers' way of putting that character 'above' everyone else in the game.
Here's an example. Let's say I'm a player, running a 12th level Fighter. If I run into, say, Driz'zt Do'Urden, I can determine what I'm dealing with: a melee focused character a few levels above me, with some nifty magic items and a big cat. I know what chance I have if I decide to tick him off (decent chance of surviving a few rounds of combat, at least ... unless RAS is writing the story, then I have no chance at all). I'm not at his level, yet, but with perseverance, I will be.
Now let's say I'm a 20th level Sorcerer, and I run into The Simbul. Sure, I've got to tack on another 15 or so levels, but that doesn't begin to cover it. In order to bring about a parity, I would have to gain the favor of some Power or other (to balance out the +4 ECL, +10 Constitution, various spell immunities, etc., not to mention the permanent Spell Effects like Shapechange (how exactly does one make Shapechange permanent? Wishes?))
The point is not that I want my hypothetical character to be stronger than the DMPC. To borrow a silly Jedi quote, "There's always a bigger fish.", and that's perfectly fine. However, if that particular fish can do something that other fish can't expect to be able to do in their careers (within the existing rules), then the game is no longer balanced, because it hinges on divine (really DM) favor.
Is this a pet peeve? Sure, and its not limited to the Chosen, or even to D&D. In fact, the extent of this in regard to the Chosen is incredibly mild compared to some games I've played. (There was one particularly egregious example from [a gaming publisher who shall remain nameless] wherein the entire 3rd act of the primary published module involved the PC's watching a cataclysmic duel between two GMPCs, and being told specifically that they were too insignificant to interfere. That's not roleplaying, that's being a spectator, and I can watch a movie for that experience.)
OK, you got 30 mins. Paid!:D
You're actually absolutely correct, I did my taxes and got paid (back :/)!
;)
I've read a ton of Forgotten Realms sources, almost none of which are novels, and I still think the Chosen are over-presented and featured prominently in many places(especially the AD&D sources, which contain far more Realmslore than the 3.0/3.5e sources). If we include the novels as part of our view of "canon" (which we are supposed to), then the Chosen become even more integral to the setting.
Certian characters are over-presented. You can't go into a bookstore these days and look through the game-related fantasy fiction without being drowned in Drizzt books, for example. (The hard cover new novels, the paperback new novels, the hard cover reprinting of old novels, new paperback reprinting of old novels, and boxed sets, and paperbacks with older covers and in some cases older hardcovers too... and it goes on - yes, that was pretty much the selection available in both my Friendly not-so-Local Game Store and my local Borders the last time I checked... (And I'm in Australia!))
There is a fairly simple reason why characters end up being over-presented. It's because there's an audience for them. If there were no audience, they wouldn't be all over everything. This explains quite a few things, the over presentation of some characters is not the only one.
Some of us (myself included) lap up representations of the Chosen, and because we do that, and because the novels and source books that contain those characters sell (reasonably) well, they cater to us. For me, the reason why I lap them up is fairly simple - powerful female characters*. So I'm sorry, I contribute to the problem.
Perhaps Ed Greenwood has made some replies to inquiries somewhere that give plausible scenarios for not involving the Chosen in political/intrigue/mid level campaigns set in the regions we've been discussing, but when people infer that information from gaming sources, that interpretation is not the only valid one and it certainly isn't the result of being able to read the products at a higher level than everyone else.
Yes, he has. In fact, he's obviously run a successful campaign set in the Realms himself (can you believe it? :D :P)... and the Chosen weren't the heart of the game (from what little he and The Hooded One have shared of the campaign - his players play members of the Knights of Myth Drannor (and the Crazed Venturers? I've only caught "glimpses" to so speak - I'm sure there are others who are more regular at Candlekeep who would know), and the campaign seems to have been all over the place throughout the Realms).
*I'll spare people my usual feminist diatribe, as I'm sure just about everyone's heard it before.
Now let's say I'm a 20th level Sorcerer, and I run into The Simbul. Sure, I've got to tack on another 15 or so levels, but that doesn't begin to cover it. In order to bring about a parity, I would have to gain the favor of some Power or other (to balance out the +4 ECL, +10 Constitution, various spell immunities, etc., not to mention the permanent Spell Effects like Shapechange (how exactly does one make Shapechange permanent? Wishes?))
Umm... No, the effect of those extra 4 non-levels are taken into account.
I'm just going to give you a rough example of what I mean because I can't be bothered moving to find my books right now...
So... we take a character - lets say a wizard 20/acm 5... we make them Chosen of OmnipotentDeityOne, a template that is applied to our wizard that is the equivelant of 4 levels... that makes her the equivelant of level 29. This represents a Chosen.
So... we take another character - lets say, for argument's sake, this one is a sorcerer 20/acm 5/arcane devotee 4... This represents our PC.
Our PC and the Chosen of OmnipotentDeityOne are both Character Level 29. Therefore, they're evenly matched.
This works the same way, whether the template is a Vampire, a Chosen, or a Half-Dragon. You apply the template to the character, and it increases the character's effective level.
Of course we run into problems when the LA of a template is not quite right (ie: too powerful or not powerful enough) but that's a different issue entirely.
Now, as for Wish* and Shapechange - well an 18th level sorcerer and above (or 17th level wizard and above) is quite capable of casting Wish - your PC as well as the Chosen. Making Shapechange permanent is probably possible: "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous." - though it does cost XP to cast, the next part: "(The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)" will allow a DM to have mega-evil-fun with it. I'm not sure of the relevance of this, though, because as far as I know none of the Chosen have used a wish for that purpose. They have altered their stats, and given themselves other benefits, though. But your character can do that to themselves too.
* Wish is up on the SRD, so I looked there for my information. Still didn't go for my books! ;) :D
Disclaimer: I'm a rules lawyer to a certian point, but I've been a player only for quite some years now. I don't claim to have a perfect understanding of the rules, and if I'm wrong, I hope someone corrects me. :P
Some posters here use a frustrating tactic when arguing against someone. Rather than refuting their points, they continually point out that the other person either simply hasn't read the sources correctly or hasn't read them at all.
My sentiment exactly, exactly. That was also the underlying implication that I got reading from reading the O.P's first post. Y'know if it wasn't for that I'd of probably passed it all off as fan boy worship and moved on. Well just so I thought I might mention I've been playing DnD for the better part of 18 years starting with the early years 2nd Ed but am familiar with a lot of 1st Ed material also the majority of that time as a player has been with the Forgotten Realms (As you might of guessed it isn't my choice of campaign world with which to D.M). I've read the novels, and know the various boxed sets and modules pretty well. To use the expression: Been there, done that. I think that makes me pseudo qualified as much as any one else to make my opinions know in this thread. And I still say the Chosen are problematic to incorporate in the over arching scheme of D.M plots without the D.M resorting to using less detailed areas of Faerun. At this juncture (I'll be brief) I'd just like to address one thing that was mentioned. Someone suggested if not the Chosen then will you have a problem with any other high level caster? When applied to realms shaking events...well no. Ignore for a moment the uber-out-uber ridiculously over powered stats ascribed to them in game, ignore the overall impression one gets of their activities in novels (penned by none other than Ed Greenwood himself), ignore many of them seem to be in positions of power and influence across the realms (and some of them really are big time). Just consider one thing; they are the chosen of the GODDESS OF MAGIC, Mystra. Who according to official cannon is able to BLOCK the development of new magic IF IT WORKS AGAINST HER INTEREST. I therefore conclude that according to official cannon you as the D.M no longer have carte blanche to devise surprising interesting elements to your plots if the main villains in your own campaign work against the best interests of the Chosen of Mystra. Now before any posts along the lines 'Ah yes but that only applies to new magic being brought into play' consider this how many Dungeons and Dragons and Dungeon Magazine adventures come out each month including new magic items and new spells or even where the main antagonist of the scenario has developed (or is trying to develop) some kind of new ritual / incantation / spell research that is threatening the stability of the area the adventurers are currently passing through. My answer would be the majority, no need to go back to previous editions for evidence it is apparent from the advent of 3rd edition and its first super module Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. In summary, your own efforts (while not impossible) to provide momentous events for your players to participate in at higher levels have to be planned in excruciating plausibility to account for the Chosen of Mystra. The Forgotten Realms is the only campaign world I am aware of that suffers due to this fundamental problem of game balance design when attributed to the campaign world itself. Remember Incursion the super module from Dungeon magazine, suggested use for Forgotten Realms? It even had to consider their impact there!! In Dungeon Magazine for God's sake! And this is truly a 'laughs out loud' moment, you know what one of the suggested alternatives was? IIRC, have the Githyanki assassinate Elminster!!!! I rest my case.
Here's an example. Let's say I'm a player, running a 12th level Fighter. If I run into, say, Driz'zt Do'Urden, I can determine what I'm dealing with: a melee focused character a few levels above me, with some nifty magic items and a big cat. I know what chance I have if I decide to tick him off (decent chance of surviving a few rounds of combat, at least ... unless RAS is writing the story, then I have no chance at all). I'm not at his level, yet, but with perseverance, I will be.
Now let's say I'm a 20th level Sorcerer, and I run into The Simbul. Sure, I've got to tack on another 15 or so levels, but that doesn't begin to cover it. In order to bring about a parity, I would have to gain the favor of some Power or other (to balance out the +4 ECL, +10 Constitution, various spell immunities, etc., not to mention the permanent Spell Effects like Shapechange (how exactly does one make Shapechange permanent? Wishes?))
The first example only works in 3E, in 2E Drizzt had a "special ability" to kill someone on a strike that hit by 5 or more (they may have gotten a save but whatever). But I do understand what you are getting at.
The thing about the Chosen (ie. Chosen templates and what not) is that they effectively limit your character. If a PC became a "Chosen" then they won't be adventuring for themselves anymore, they'll be working for their god. The amount of power gained doesn't balance out against the restrictions you need to operate under (ie. the Simbul can't take the fight to Thavians anymore). This isn't something that's presented too clearly if you read a few of the sources lightly but it is there and it should be taken into consideration Spoiler from Trial of Cyric the Mad (or whatever the name is)
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(Especially since Mystra II has been taught her lesson and forcibly expelled her mortal emotions from her divine being).
The thing about the Chosen (ie. Chosen templates and what not) is that they effectively limit your character. If a PC became a "Chosen" then they won't be adventuring for themselves anymore, they'll be working for their god.
The Chosen do quite a bit of adventuring and meddling in the Novels (and thus in the gaming materials that summarize events in the novels) that seems to have more to do with promoting the cause of "Good-ness" or their own view of what is right than the cause of Magic. But that's just my interpretation, I guess. Even I'm willing to concede that you can ignore the "crusading" aspect of the Chosen in your campaigns for the most part. The novels may make them crusaders for Good, but a DM doesn't have to. I still believe, though, that if you want to alter the status quo (flip Tethyr's rulers from LG to LN/LE for example), the Chosen block that route off, unless you take them into account.
My sentiment exactly, exactly. That was also the underlying implication that I got reading from reading the O.P's first post.
How bout you ask the poster rather than putting words in her mouth. The amount of people who have attributed positions to the Simbul in this thread is staggering (myself included). How bout we let the Simbul speak for the Simbul.
And I still say the Chosen are problematic to incorporate in the over arching scheme of D.M plots without the D.M resorting to using less detailed areas of Faerun.
PLEASE give a concrete example. Character X is trying to do Y using method Z. Please, this back and forth about perceptions of the gaming material is getting us no where.
At this juncture (I'll be brief) I'd just like to address one thing that was mentioned. Someone suggested if not the Chosen then will you have a problem with any other high level caster? When applied to realms shaking events...well no. Ignore for a moment the uber-out-uber ridiculously over powered stats ascribed to them in game, ignore the overall impression one gets of their activities in novels (penned by none other than Ed Greenwood himself), ignore many of them seem to be in positions of power and influence across the realms (and some of them really are big time). Just consider one thing; they are the chosen of the GODDESS OF MAGIC, Mystra. Who according to official cannon is able to BLOCK the development of new magic IF IT WORKS AGAINST HER INTEREST.
And her interests are the Weave and magic. She is in the process of learning how to be a Goddess of Magic. Doesn't happen overnight, she's messed up big time, almost got stripped of divinity, expelled her mortal emotions from her divine being (or at least just her love of Kelemvor) and, basically, has grown as a God. Give her a bit of time, it's not like going from mortality to divinity is easy.
I therefore conclude that according to official cannon you as the D.M no longer have carte blanche to devise surprising interesting elements to your plots if the main villains in your own campaign work against the best interests of the Chosen of Mystra.
The Chosen of Mystra do not equal Mystra. They are different. Alustriel's confederation doesn't truely interest Mystra beyond the fact that a stable community is more likely to engage in other types of magical research besides offensive and defensive magic.
Now before any posts along the lines ... are currently passing through.
Nope, I wouldn't answer that at all. I would answer that "Mystra, in no way, shape or form, wants to limit the abilities of magic on toril. She started off wanting things to be rosey and happy, she's learned that trying to make things rosey and happy leads to anything but (rosey and happy)."
In summary, your own efforts (while not impossible) to provide momentous events for your players to participate in at higher levels have to be planned in excruciating plausibility to account for the Chosen of Mystra. The Forgotten Realms is the only campaign world I am aware of that suffers due to this fundamental problem of game balance design when attributed to the campaign world itself.
If I wanted to overthrow the City of Greyhawk I would have had to deal with the Circle of Eight. Tell me why that is fundamentally different than having to deal with the Chosen.
Remember Incursion the super module from Dungeon magazine, suggested use for Forgotten Realms? It even had to consider their impact there!! In Dungeon Magazine for God's sake! And this is truly a 'laughs out loud' moment, you know what one of the suggested alternatives was? IIRC, have the Githyanki assassinate Elminster!!!! I rest my case.
Dunno about the module, never read it. However, if you wanted to place the module near the City of Greyhawk you'd have to deal with the Circle of Eight, the thieves guild, the assassins guild, merchants, politicians, adventurers, etc
In any setting you must deal with parts of the setting.
Last, but not least, the Forgotten Realms isn't a "OMG! The world is going to be destroyed if the PCs don't stop the plot!!!!!" Even the RSEs aren't "world threatening" plots (unless you extrapolate from the plot a few centuries down the road). There are Heartland threatening plots . . . but I don't even really see that as such, I'd have to read the more recent RSEs to be completely confident in my opinion that even should Shade have melted the Great Glacier they wouldn't have taken control of the world (or even greater Heartlands)
Unfortunately (or fortunately) I'd rather stab out my eyes than read those books.
Heya,
Umm... No, the effect of those extra 4 non-levels are taken into account.
I'm just going to give you a rough example of what I mean because I can't be bothered moving to find my books right now...
So... we take a character - lets say a wizard 20/acm 5... we make them Chosen of OmnipotentDeityOne, a template that is applied to our wizard that is the equivelant of 4 levels... that makes her the equivelant of level 29. This represents a Chosen.
So... we take another character - lets say, for argument's sake, this one is a sorcerer 20/acm 5/arcane devotee 4... This represents our PC.
Our PC and the Chosen of OmnipotentDeityOne are both Character Level 29. Therefore, they're evenly matched.
This works the same way, whether the template is a Vampire, a Chosen, or a Half-Dragon. You apply the template to the character, and it increases the character's effective level.
Of course we run into problems when the LA of a template is not quite right (ie: too powerful or not powerful enough) but that's a different issue entirely.
Now, as for Wish* and Shapechange - well an 18th level sorcerer and above (or 17th level wizard and above) is quite capable of casting Wish - your PC as well as the Chosen. Making Shapechange permanent is probably possible: "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous." - though it does cost XP to cast, the next part: "(The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)" will allow a DM to have mega-evil-fun with it. I'm not sure of the relevance of this, though, because as far as I know none of the Chosen have used a wish for that purpose. They have altered their stats, and given themselves other benefits, though. But your character can do that to themselves too.
* Wish is up on the SRD, so I looked there for my information. Still didn't go for my books! ;) :D
Disclaimer: I'm a rules lawyer to a certian point, but I've been a player only for quite some years now. I don't claim to have a perfect understanding of the rules, and if I'm wrong, I hope someone corrects me. :P
I am aware of how templates work, and yes, I feel the level adjustment for the Chosen template (+4) is a tad low. The template adds, off the top of my head: +10 constitution, immunity to 1 spell per spell level (and related effects*, unless I misremember, which is entirely possible), Silver Fire**, other effects that I can't remember off hand - part of my problem being that the various Epic benefits of various characters are run together with their Chosen benefits in the descriptions, and I don't have the books open in front of me (nor in the same building, I'm afraid). As far as the Shapechange example, I used the Simbul as an example because that was one of the powers she possesses according to the FRCS.
IMO, templates are problematic whatever the origin, because they add a sometimes large - and often poorly defined - boost to the character. Templates of any type come at the whim (or design, I don't mean to belittle DMs who have used templates. i have used them myself in the past, so I'm criticizing myself here) of the DM, rather than thru any path or progression of the character. One can work towards gaining 4 character levels through several adventures, but being handed them as a bonus (whether for being bitten by a vampire, a werewolf, or a capricious diety of magic) is unbalancing.
* The term related effects is open to interpretation.
** Silver Fire has such varied uses as to make it a very powerful effect, if used intelligently.
The first example only works in 3E, in 2E Drizzt had a "special ability" to kill someone on a strike that hit by 5 or more (they may have gotten a save but whatever). But I do understand what you are getting at.
The thing about the Chosen (ie. Chosen templates and what not) is that they effectively limit your character. If a PC became a "Chosen" then they won't be adventuring for themselves anymore, they'll be working for their god. The amount of power gained doesn't balance out against the restrictions you need to operate under (ie. the Simbul can't take the fight to Thavians anymore). This isn't something that's presented too clearly if you read a few of the sources lightly but it is there and it should be taken into consideration Spoiler from Trial of Cyric the Mad (or whatever the name is)Show(Especially since Mystra II has been taught her lesson and forcibly expelled her mortal emotions from her divine being).
The Chosen do quite a bit of adventuring and meddling in the Novels (and thus in the gaming materials that summarize events in the novels) that seems to have more to do with promoting the cause of "Good-ness" or their own view of what is right than the cause of Magic. But that's just my interpretation, I guess. Even I'm willing to concede that you can ignore the "crusading" aspect of the Chosen in your campaigns for the most part. The novels may make them crusaders for Good, but a DM doesn't have to. I still believe, though, that if you want to alter the status quo (flip Tethyr from LG to LN/LE for example), the Chosen block that route off, unless you take them into account.
How do you flip a country from LG to LN/LE?
It's certainly not the rulers who give a region an alignment, it's (AFAIK) the "general alignment of people found in the region".
But if I were to give such a plot a try I'd start by trying to aid the common folk in the name of an evil diety (perhaps Bane, going along a line of though such as "a strong ruler would establish strong order in which trade would flourish"). So long as you don't harm people, use subversive magic or overtly try and control people then governmental forces have no true way to arrest or otherwise stop your actions (they can try and they can try more subtle methods but if they overtly try and stop you then you can cry 'foul' and the monarch's rule of Tethyr isn't substancial enough, IMO, to survive a blatently tyranical act, which is rather ironic since you'd be espoucing the virtues of tyranny)
It's a relatively poor example but it's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head to effect a regional alignment.
Anyhow, a misconseption that I feel has been a sticking point in these arguments is a feeling of "good alignment + good alignment = allies" which is simply not true. Look at Cormyr and the Dalelands for an easy example (they're tentative allies but the Dales are VERY warry of Cormyrian influence in the Dales)
Fiendish Codex II has a whole, poorly written, section on how devils try to change the alignment of kingdoms to LE, just for anyone's information who cares. Its one of the more useless parts of the book (in my opinion), but its in there. Also, I believe Tethyr has some sort of law on religious freedom that prohibits Gods like Bane from openly being worshipped because he advocates tyranny and forcible conversions, but someone else might know the specifics better.
Edit: Also, if I thought all good lands were allied with the Chosen just because of alignment, I would be including Impiltur, Damara, Rashemen, etc. in these discussions. I've tried to include just areas where the Chosen are rulers, residents, or past interlopers.
I remember the 2ed effect for Driz'zt, but I'm trying not to live in the past. I used him as an example specifically because his game stats are significantly downplayed from his Super-Drow depictions in RAS's novels.
More than fair enough
As to your other point, I don't think the "Servant of a God" limitation for the Chosen is any more limiting than being a Cleric. In fact, other than Elminster, why is it that none of the Chosen have levels in any Cleric-type class? If the Chosen template simply added 4 levels of Cleric (as an example), I don't think I'd find them at all imbalancing.
While I do agree that the limitations of the Chosen, as I see it, don't jive with novels or some of the quick write ups in the FRCS. The limits, as I think of them, are;
Thier lives are worth FAR MORE than any particular RSE. Meaning, if they get captured then whoever has captured them has access to some of Mystra's divine essense. IMO the Chosens MOST IMPORTANT task is to keep that essense safe. This is not portrayed particularly well in any source I know of, barring Elminster in Hell.
Thier actions are psuedo-divine actions, which have various implications depending upon the situation.
Oh, I lost my train of thought but those two limitations, as I see them, both make sense and are perfectly reasonable.
I meant change the rulers. I corrected the post above and am sorry for the misconception.
Ok, that's fine, though I feel that it's easier to change rulers than "general regional alignment" ;)
Anyhow, I'd start by trying to erode noble support for their rule, finding the most vulnerable nobles and starting to support them in some ways and gain influence. From there it's basically rinse and repeat, trying to get nobles who are unhappy with the monarchs rules to gain more power and to try and sabotage the nobles who do support their rule. I'd do this by trying to cut into the noble's businesses in whatever ways seemed the;
-most likely to be viewed as bad luck or something unrelated to my character.
-most likely to forment descent in their peasent populous.
-most likely to impact the safety of the region.
-most likely to be viewed as the noble being incompetent, rather than the noble being victim of attacks
It certainly would not be easy but it's certainly a lot better than forming an army and trying to take Tethyr out using brawn.
Further, it wouldn't be particularly difficult to assassinate the rulers. While they are in their castle, surrounded by their might and protected by wards it would be very difficult. But if you catch them while they are travelling from castle X to castle Y to visit the nobility for whatever reason then it's not nearly so hard and a well placed ambush would probably do the trick (you'd likely have to employ some sort of teleportation block but you'll need to do that with any ruler of a nation that has any large amount of resources)
Basically, El isn't on call
Fiendish Codex II has a whole, poorly written, section on how devils try to change the alignment of kingdoms to LE, just for anyone's information who cares. Its one of the more useless parts of the book (in my opinion), but its in there. Also, I believe Tethyr has some sort of law on religious freedom that prohibits Gods like Bane from openly being worshipped because he advocates tyranny and forcible conversions, but someone else might know the specifics better.
Been a LONG time since I've read the Lands of Intrigue box so I'm not super familiar with Tethyr's laws. However I don't think Tethyr has a really strong government yet (typically speaking, it's not easy to gain control over a nation that's been at civil war for at least a decade *g*)
Edit: Also, if I thought all good lands were allied with the Chosen just because of alignment, I would be including Impiltur, Damara, Rashemen, etc. in these discussions. I've tried to include just areas where the Chosen are rulers, residents, or past interlopers.
No doubt, but that still applies in a microcosm (ie. two good shop keepers will compete and be unlikely to help the other with his business)
I can see the point of a diety granting a portion of their divine power to a mortal and declaring that mortal to be their Champion (or Chosen, if you prefer). It makes sense as far as church politics go, especially in a fantasy world.
Faerun being Polytheistic, however, I've got to wonder what all the other Faerunian powers think about Mystra's multiple chosen. Take Cyric, for example. He's a petty, whiny-type fellow granted godhood at the same time as Midnight/Mystra. He doesn't get along with her (or anybody else), and see's her stacking the deck with 11+ super-mortals ... and does nothing? (OK, admittedly, Mystra created all her Chosen long before Cyric was a gleam in his daddy's eye, but Cyric's a short-sighted guy, right?) I doubt he would, any more than Russia would fail to stock a few ballistic missles on Cuban shores. Cyric would create a few Chosen of his own, as would all the other evil dieties.
What about the good and neutral dieties? Would they sit around the heavenly poker table and tell each other how cool it was that Mystra has all those Chosen keeping an eye on things? Doubtful, especially because they don't all get along with the Lady of Magic. So they get their own Chosen ready, and lots of them.
But we haven't seen that, have we? Aside from a few scattered Chosen here and there, Mystra's got the bumper crop. Why? Is it that, being a focus of EG, those are the only ones fully developed, or some other reason? This is genuine curiosity, now, not sarcasm or a challenge. Any ideas?
Anyhow, I'd start by trying to erode noble support for their rule . . .
Basically, El isn't on call
I actually wrote out a very detailed campaign hook involving the Thione family, native born nobles who had suffered as a result of the importation of new nobility (from the FRCS), and even an imprisoned Demon Lord, but I abandoned it completely when I realized that the inevitable result of a successful plot against the King and Queen would be Chosen intervention at some point and I had no intention of making my villains a high enough level to defeat a Chosen. I elected to shift most elements of the campaign to a new campaign on the Moonshaes. Its too bad, because Tethyr is an excellent candidate for a nation to revert to its more traditional, aggressive posture in the Realms and it has a good location.
Edit: ShadezofDis' take on the Chosen's vulnerability is a superior way to handle the Chosen than the novels and gaming materials put out, but I don't necessarily know that I agree that's the interpretation the material most lends itself too. We do not often see the Chosen portrayed as being vulnerabilities to either version of Mystra and this vulnerability has not prevented the Chosen from remaking the map of Faerun in the past. If you do prescribe these limitations to the Chosen in the future, it would make them more palpable in the setting, but I don't think the novels and materials are likely to do that in the near future.
Just as a musing aside, but still on topic ...
...
But we haven't seen that, have we? Aside from a few scattered Chosen here and there, Mystra's got the bumper crop. Why? Is it that, being a focus of EG, those are the only ones fully developed, or some other reason? This is genuine curiosity, now, not sarcasm or a challenge. Any ideas?
Alright, first off, Chosen is a term that applies to two different types of Chosen. One, being Mystra's Chosen, who contain within them a part of Mystra's divine essense, the other, being everyone elses Chosen (AFAIK) whom are their "mortal champions on toril" and do not contain divine essense (though they do get bonuses from their gods that amount to divine blessings AFAIK)
I could be off on the details but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Now,
The Chosen of Mystra are VERY MUCH a vulnerability rather than an asset. Part of her divine essense is in these mortals, for reasons unknown to us, and that divine essense can be used against her (presumably).
I can't see Cyric wanting to "even the odds" by creating Chosen with his divine essense as it creates a vulnerability and Cyric is the most paranoid being around (baring outsiders).
I feel like most authors have downplayed the vulnerability the Chosen create for Mystra, but I also believe that this is more for sales than because of anything else (though I could be 100% wrong *g*)
I actually wrote out a very detailed campaign hook involving the Thione family, native born nobles who had suffered as a result of the importation of new nobility (from the FRCS), and even an imprisoned Demon Lord, but I abandoned it completely when I realized that the inevitable result of a successful plot against the King and Queen would be Chosen intervention at some point and I had no intention of making my villains a high enough level to defeat a Chosen. I elected to shift most elements of the campaign to a new campaign on the Moonshaes. Its too bad, because Tethyr is an excellent candidate for a nation to revert to its more traditional, aggressive posture in the Realms and it has a good location.
Well, Z (can't spell her name) came from "the ground up" so to speak, not "being placed there". I'll have to double check my 2E source at some point to verify but that's always been my impression. So while the Thione family might be longer standing (ie. we trace our nobility back 1,000 years!) I do believe that Z came from an established noble family and H is the actual heir. I think the FRCS dropped the ball on this one but I'll have to double check (I also think that the FRCS shouldn't have made it seem like the monarchy was just plopped down by "foreign wizards" because that isn't how it happened).
Regardless, I don't see why the Chosen would inevitablely step in. If it's a "stompy loud" type plot then I can see an argument for including the Chosen, I can also see an argument that they wouldn't step in. The Demon Lord is another matter though, that's an extraplannar threat rather than just a noble uprising. I wouldn't see the Chosen stepping in unless the Demon Lord pretty much advertised his presence though, Demon Lords should be a bit more subtle than that.
Anyhow, you can always take the tactic of cutting 10 levels off the Chosen, or you could have the Demon Lord be more powerful than the Chosen but the Chosen get in a tussle with him before the PCs get there and the PCs see the Demon Lord chasing the Chosen away, then the PCs need to decide if they think the Chosen knocked the Demon Lord down far enough for them to take him (which would definitely be a colorful argument around the table *g*). Or the Demon Lord could take pre-emptive steps, contact some outsider help and send the Chosen off on a red herring.
Edit: ShadezofDis' take on the Chosen's vulnerability is a superior way to handle the Chosen than the novels and gaming materials put out, but I don't necessarily know that I agree that's the interpretation the material most lends itself too. We do not often see the Chosen portrayed as being vulnerabilities to either version of Mystra and this vulnerability has not prevented the Chosen from remaking the map of Faerun in the past. If you do prescribe these limitations to the Chosen in the future, it would make them more palpable in the setting, but I don't think the novels and materials are likely to do that in the near future.
Which, I feel, is a directly influenced by the "cool factor". Vulnerable characters just aren't "in" anymore, it seems that people, in general, want to watch, read or play "Mr Bad ***, who kicks tail while making fat jokes about your mom"
I'm not saying I'm correct, it just seems that RPGs, Movies, Books, Music, etc has been heading that way for a good long time now. It makes me
Oh, and I'm not saying that I'm some paragon of virtue in this regard, I certainly have run characters who took out flights of dragons. I have no interest in such things anymore (at least on the RPG table, I love me some video games), I'm much more interested in developing a character who seems as real as possible to me. (or, since I'm DMing most of the time, creating a living, breathing world that doesn't hinge on the PCs every action)
The Demon Lords presented in Fiendish Codex I wouldn't have a chance against a Chosen. You could modify the Demon Lord up, but then you are facing the problem that I wanted to avoid: villains too powerful to be useful in a campaign. The Demon Lord's role in this particular campaign was actually a desparate desire to return to the Abyss and not so much a desire to rule Tethyr or remain on the Material Plane, so it was going to be possible and probable to avoid a direct combat confrontation.
Haedrak III is the rightful heir to the throne and his legitimacy is without question (that's the only advantage to the Moonshaes plot; the Kendricks seem to be usurpers), except that he abdicated his right to rule to his wife and her own basis for legitimacy (popular support) means very little in a medieval fantasy setting (if I'm not mistaken, Zaranda's countess title is actually a purchased title, not an inherited one and she isn't a member of "previous" dynasty). Combine that with the fact that the FRCS says they were put there by Chosen (Lands of Intrigue is more subtle, but Haedrak's army of reclamation is mostly from Waterdeep and the Chosen had something to do with putting it together), and you have all the makings for noble discontent. The Thiones in my plot would have been more subtle than the Jhannivvar Pretender (who also traced his claim back to the Thione family), but if the Chosen don't exist, you don't really need to be as subtle in a place like Tethyr as you would in a place like Waterdeep or Cormyr. That's why it seems a good candidate for a "switch."
Sorry to turn this thead into what seems like a dialogue . . .
No problem, this is the sort of issue that takes a good amount of time to work out.
The Demon Lords presented in Fiendish Codex I wouldn't have a chance against a Chosen.
First, I don't feel that Demon Lords, ArchDevils and the like are accurately portrayed (though I am developing a theory that would make these potrayals more palatable in my mind, but it's a rather involved theory that is based off of the planes themselves being "avatars" of the true plane, it's more involved than that but it might give you a glimer of what I'm thinking)
Anyhow, ignoring my theory, I look at the Demon Lords and what not as needing to be adjusted based upon the campaign (if you're going to use them). Basically, depending upon the levels of your pcs involved, you need to adjust the Demon Lords to be an appropriate "Plannar power". Otherwise, IMO, you lose the entire flavor of Demons, Devils and their ilk.
You could modify the Demon Lord up, but then you are facing the problem that I wanted to avoid: villains too powerful to be useful in a campaign. The Demon Lord's role in this particular campaign was actually a desparate desire to return to the Abyss and not so much a desire to rule Tethyr or remain on the Material Plane, so it was going to be possible and probable to avoid a direct combat confrontation.
Well, if there's no direct combat then it's sort of an aside as to how powerful the Demon Lord is, unless you mean in relation to those the Demon Lord would curry in order for them to create a gate or him or whatever. However, I don't really like the idea that a Demon Lord would be indebted to mortals, but that's just MO
Haedrak III is the rightful heir to the throne and his legitimacy is without question (that's the only advantage to the Moonshaes plot; the Kendricks seem to be usurpers), except that he abdicated his right to rule to his wife
Thus she has complete legitimacy, no matter how many nobles it enrages
and her own basis for legitimacy (popular support) means very little in a medieval fantasy setting
Except that a ruler NEEDS either popular support, or popular support among those who can control a populous. If Farmer Bob has the support of the Tethyr populous then he is much more likely to become King Bob than a high ranking noble who is hated by the populous.
(if I'm not mistaken, Zaranda's countess title is actually a purchased title, not an inherited one and she isn't a member of "previous" dynasty).
I'm not sure about this, like I said, I haven't brushed up on Tethyr in QUITE a while.
Combine that with the fact that the FRCS says they were put there by Chosen
Incorrect, "place there by powerful foriegn wizards", which may or may not have had anything to do with the Chosen. What I know for sure is that El protected Haedrak throughout his youth and then sent him on to Tethyr when there was an oportunity for him to gain his rightful rule (and hopefully avoid a few more decades worth of blood)
(Lands of Intrigue is more subtle, but Haedrak's army of reclamation is mostly from Waterdeep and the Chosen had something to do with putting it together)
I don't remember him having his own "reclamation army", I'd been under the impression that most of the groundwork was done by Zaranda.
and you have all the makings for noble discontent. The Thiones in my plot would have been more subtle than the Jhannivvar Pretender (who also traced his claim back to the Thione family), but if the Chosen don't exist, you don't really need to be as subtle in a place like Tethyr as you would in a place like Waterdeep or Cormyr.
I would agree, but only in so far as the Monarcy of Tethyr isn't nearly as stable as the Rulers of Waterdeep (and due to more recent developements Waterdeep might not be so stable, but again, I'm a bit weak on Waterdeep) . . . Cormyr is arguable due to the events of the past couple of years.
However, I would argue that in any area where there are "powers that be" you need to be subtle in taking on those powers because they have access to far more resources than the PCs.
That's why it seems a good candidate for a "switch."
And still is, IMO.
Really, the only Chosen with interests in Tethyr is El and El doesn't want the job of running around propping up this or that government, nor does he feel such a tactic is successful in the long run (and he's correct)
So, I can see El stepping in to save Haedrak and Zaranda's lives, I can't see him stepping in to save their thrones.
I feel like most authors have downplayed the vulnerability the Chosen create for Mystra, but I also believe that this is more for sales than because of anything else (though I could be 100% wrong *g*)
I'm not saying you're wrong ... in fact, the events in Blackstaff tend to support that (the downplaying, I mean).
But what, if any, difference is there between, say, "That which makes Elminster 'Chosen'", and "That which makes Fzoul Chembryl 'Chosen'"? How about the difference between Storm Silverhand and Jhaeren Faulkon (or however you spell her name), Champion of Meilikki? Do they all weaken their respective dieties? Is there a tradeoff between that weak link and the benefits to the diety's concerns on Toril?
My impression was that Mystra's Chosen somehow shared the "overflow" from the weave, as in power that Mystra couldn't contain (though that is probably a poor or incorrect way to put it.) I've never heard anything about them being a weak link for the diety, though. Again, curious, not sarcastic.
How bout you ask the poster rather than putting words in her mouth. The amount of people who have attributed positions to the Simbul in this thread is staggering (myself included). How bout we let the Simbul speak for the Simbul.
Er yeah…I was going for the touchy, feely, feely, softly, softly understatement, now I will not. How about I don't need to, the comment incidentally addressed to another poster (Tiamat2), in regards to claims made by the O.P, was in good cause. Which I shall now prove by distinguishing fact from hearsay. Then it will become apparent who in fact is attributing positions in order to add weight to their own arguments.
...then I would suggest you need to find a Dungeon Master who has read the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, or simply become a more well-read Dungeon Master yourself, or exercise an ounce of common sense in selecting which Forgotten Realms novels you choose to read. Because a dozen NPCs, no matter how powerful, are not the axis upon which the campaign world turns, nor are they an impediment to keep it from doing so.
Being that Ed Greenwood (the creator of the Forgotten Realms) wrote most of the Sisters material I find this comment highly dubious.
I have grown rather irritated by the tedious, repetitive, and illogical claims that Mystra's Chosen, or equally narrowly focused but powerful NPC groups, are somehow an impediment for every DM to deal with
And I am growing increasingly irritated by the accusation that those who persist this view
are under read and / in adequate / or ill equipped to run a Forgotten Realms campaign.
then you need to find a DM who has read the books necessary for running a campaign in the Forgotten Realms, namely the Dungeon Master's Guide and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Guess I'm blasted out from behind the D.M screen by one of The Simbul's lightning bolts.
PLEASE give a concrete example. Character X is trying to do Y using method Z. Please, this back and forth about perceptions of the gaming material is getting us no where.
Tell me are you familiar with the collected works of Ed Greenwood's fantasy porn? A controversial writer indeed, you should give him a try.
And her interests are the Weave and magic. She is in the process of learning how to be a Goddess of Magic. Doesn't happen overnight, she's messed up big time, almost got stripped of divinity, expelled her mortal emotions from her divine being (or at least just her love of Kelemvor) and, basically, has grown as a God. Give her a bit of time, it's not like going from mortality to divinity is easy.
Agreed, nothing to dispute here.
The Chosen of Mystra do not equal Mystra. They are different. Alustriel's confederation doesn't truely interest Mystra beyond the fact that a stable community is more likely to engage in other types of magical research besides offensive and defensive magic.
Not once have I mentioned to the Chosen individually or referred to their individual goals, but since you brought it up it leads nicely to my next point. Power, let's consider the various types of power for a second. The most obvious form is the King that can order his army to besiege a fortress, this is power in it's element but also the one most fraught with danger if the war doesn't go as well as planned the King risks mutiny or civil uprising. The simple fact is the Chosen do not wield this kind of power, they wield power which is much more effective, dangerous and subtle. They wield the power of influence, the ability to council and have their words given grave consideration. The common Dales folk may think of Elminster as an eccentric sage possessing considerable magical aptitude, others in the know, know better. Storm? High ranking member of the Harpers (You don't want to hear me rant on the Harpers), which would be the modern day equivalent of the F.S.B or the C.I.A, not to mention two rulers governing their own kingdoms. The right word in the right ear at the right time is worth more than a thousand heavily armoured cavalier. There's no way that could be claimed these people don't involve themselves in the politics of the Realms. Their goals align with Mystra's. Mystra IS a firm friend to the Harpers you need go no further the CRPG Baldur's Gate II to know this. Further they do not need to because those lands they do govern / reside are more or less pretty much liberalized do gooder farms as it stands, here's an example imagine a new Lord of Shadowdale quickly gaining support from the militia, to expedite matters let's assume under magical compulsion. His first decree that anyone hunting deer on his lands for food will be forced to watch his\her family tortured and slaughtered in front of his eyes before being tortured executed him \ herself, any Realms experts out there give an impression how Ms Silverhand would feel about this???....And yet it was common practice as punishment in medieval times in my country, see where I'm going with this?
Nope, I wouldn't answer that at all. I would answer that "Mystra, in no way, shape or form, wants to limit the abilities of magic on toril. She started off wanting things to be rosey and happy, she's learned that trying to make things rosey and happy leads to anything but (rosey and happy)."
The fact remains if Mystra's interests and by way of Mystra also know this to be her Chosen's best interests are threatened then she intervenes. Elminster in Hell is a perfect example.
If I wanted to overthrow the City of Greyhawk I would have had to deal with the Circle of Eight. Tell me why that is fundamentally different than having to deal with the Chosen.
Possibly, possibly not. The Circle of Eight are 'shades of gray' and more factitious than how the Sisters are depicted. It depends what would be in their best interest, you really can't compare The Circle of Eight against The Chosen, true they level the political clout but they're not even in the same league as divinely infused immortals that have the full backing from a god. If you know anything about Oerth's history you'd know the campaign world is much more orientated toward neutralities rather than absolutes apart from notables such as Iuz and The Horned Society who are clear and present dangers. Of course The Scarlet Brotherhood being the original Red Wizards.
Dunno about the module, never read it. However, if you wanted to place the module near the City of Greyhawk you'd have to deal with the Circle of Eight, the thieves guild, the assassins guild, merchants, politicians, adventurers, etc
In any setting you must deal with parts of the setting.
It's based near Verbobonc, if the villains of the piece succeed there are consequences, it wouldn't matter where it was placed. The gods of Greyhawk may only interact in prescribed ways on Oerth.
Last, but not least, the Forgotten Realms isn't a "OMG! The world is going to be destroyed if the PCs don't stop the plot!!!!!"
100% agreed. 999 times out of 1000 they shouldn't be, all that is necessary is to plausibly justify the inactivity of the Chosen.
Well, if there's no direct combat then it's sort of an aside as to how powerful the Demon Lord is, unless you mean in relation to those the Demon Lord would curry in order for them to create a gate or him or whatever. However, I don't really like the idea that a Demon Lord would be indebted to mortals, but that's just MO
With the Chosen to be taken into account, the CR of the Demon Lord matters more than it should, especially since the Demon Lord was originally inserted into the plot line (and if this was a different thread, I might give the whole "story") to possibly explain why the Chosen wouldn't risk confrontation with my Thione villain, but that ended up not making as much sense as I wanted, hence the Chosen leading to a scrapping of the idea and the CR of the Demon Lord being much less important.
Thus she has complete legitimacy, no matter how many nobles it enrages
Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If Tsar Nicolas II had abdicated his right to rule to his wife, Tsarina Alexandra, Russia's monarchy would not have survived even as long as it did. In the real world, few monarchs historically would have been able to get away with this maneuver. Its more acceptable in a fantasy environment, but in my mind it still weakens their over all legitimacy (as in right to rule based on legal and dynastic privilege, not so much how the bulk of their subjects view the situation).
Except that a ruler NEEDS either popular support, or popular support among those who can control a populous. If Farmer Bob has the support of the Tethyr populous then he is much more likely to become King Bob than a high ranking noble who is hated by the populous.
Very few medieval monarchs depended on popular support. Perhaps a debate for another time, but really its up to the DM how much of Ed Greenwood's modern politics you want to use in your setting.
Incorrect, "place there by powerful foriegn wizards", which may or may not have had anything to do with the Chosen.
Don't be facetious.
Everyone knows who the powerful foreign wizards are in this sentence. They happen to reside in Shadowdale and Waterdeep.I don't remember him having his own "reclamation army", I'd been under the impression that most of the groundwork was done by Zaranda.
He did have an army of reclamation recruited from Waterdeep and Waterdeep nobility. These Waterdeep nobles are the foreign nobles referred to in the FRCS. They stayed on to replace noble families that supported the Pretender.
However, I would argue that in any area where there are "powers that be" you need to be subtle in taking on those powers because they have access to far more resources than the PCs.
Well, again, the problem here isn't how the Chosen limit PC's, its how the Chosen limit villains and thus, indirectly, limit the role of the PC's. In this case, the Chosen would deter the Thiones from making their bid to begin with (if you assume that people know the foreign backing the current rulers received, which the FRCS suggests is possible when it refers to tensions between new and old nobles) or would deter the DM from starting a "dead-end" campaign to begin with (if you assume the Thiones don't know about the foreign powers behind Zaranda and Haedrak, but that their bid is doomed because the Chosen will crush it or depose them once they are successful since the Chosen have an interest in a friendly Tethyr).
The Chosen have an interest in a friendly X place.
Bold is mine.
Do you know WHY do they preffer friendly/stable/goodly kingom/city/confederation?
Because it alows an easier spread of magic, if you have many places with big magical academies (like the one in Silverymoon) where everybody can study magic (evil tyrants never allow people to become powerfull) then Mystra is empowered. A good aligned stable city/confederation/kingdom benefits Mystra, while a Tyrant ruled city/confederation/kingdom hurts her, you can see that in Elminster: the Making of a Mage, where the Magelords of Athalanthar controled everything that happened and they only allowed training to those who they could control.
The Harpers where founded to help in the protection and spread of knowledge (Oghma is one of the patron gods of the Harpers along with Mystra) and to balance the civilized world with the natural world (that is why they have Mielikki as one of the founding gods of the Harpers). It's only logical that they "meddle" with tyrants, because they destroy the balance of civilization and nature and hoard knowledge for themselves.
In the end their motivation doesn't matter, only their presence, alignment and the results are important when constructing a campaign and trying to avoid using them. If the Chosen warp in and burn my villain to the ground because they like magic, that hardly matters as much as the fact my villain is gone.
Alustriel only knows that the curch of Shar is involved, the players also have the help of the Harpers and the Guardians of the Weave (one of my players is an Aasimar Knight of the Weave) but they haven't being able to pierce the shadows casted by the Sharrans, only the players have a remote clue, because an old rival, a cousin of Kymil Nimesin, who was classmate of Alediran (mi DMPC) just appeared in the city. The players "learned" (more like being baited into a trap) that he was working with the church of Shar, he almost managed to kill the party in the trap (including Alediran, I never have indestructible NPCs) and now they are following him into the outskirts of the city (he isn't aware of this and it will be the possible doom of the efforts of destroying the Mythal, because the players will stumble with the BBEG for the first time)
Shar is a good oposing force if you are DMing in an area where the Chosen are active.
With the Chosen to be taken into account, the CR of the Demon Lord matters more than it should, especially since the Demon Lord was originally inserted into the plot line (and if this was a different thread, I might give the whole "story") to possibly explain why the Chosen wouldn't risk confrontation with my Thione villain, but that ended up not making as much sense as I wanted, hence the Chosen leading to a scrapping of the idea and the CR of the Demon Lord being much less important.
I can't see any high powered NPC running in to confront a Demon Lord, Chosen or otherwise, until they are assured that either;
They will definitely be victorious
or
The Demon Lord is going to overtly effect the whole world (then they might charge in regardless of their confidence in their ability to take down said Demon Lord)
Just because the "stats" reflect the Chosen (or NPC X, Y or Z) as being able to kick the crap out of a Demon Lord without breaking a sweat doesn't mean the characters know this.
As a side note, are the Fiendish books generic D&D or FR books. If they are generic D&D then they aren't "balanced" for Toril because Toril has been going through an "arms race" since 2E which seems to outpace the "arms race" of D&D in general.
Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If Tsar Nicolas II had abdicated his right to rule to his wife, Tsarina Alexandra, Russia's monarchy would not have survived even as long as it did. In the real world, few monarchs historically would have been able to get away with this maneuver. Its more acceptable in a fantasy environment, but in my mind it still weakens their over all legitimacy (as in right to rule based on legal and dynastic privilege, not so much how the bulk of their subjects view the situation).
Indeed. FR is VASTLY different from our medieval past. Just the inclusion of magic changes nigh unto everything. Also, the dangerous monsters make a huge difference as well.
Very few medieval monarchs depended on popular support. Perhaps a debate for another time, but really its up to the DM how much of Ed Greenwood's modern politics you want to use in your setting.
Those politics are part and parcel of FR. Gender equality, less ethnic based racism, a generally more prosperous peasentry, etc etc
Don't be facetious.
One of whom was definitely El, though it could very well have been Haedrak who lobbied for the support. Further, we have no real knowledge that it was a Chosen driven plot (ie. El put the word over the Kel who then made sure Haedrak had backing), it could have been Haedrak doing the leg work.
Now, I do think it's much more likely that El and Kel had a larger hand in those events but I have no real proof
Well, again, the problem here isn't how the Chosen limit PC's, its how the Chosen limit villains and thus, indirectly, limit the role of the PC's. In this case, the Chosen would deter the Thiones from making their bid to begin with (if you assume that people know the foreign backing the current rulers received, which the FRCS suggests is possible when it refers to tensions between new and old nobles) or would deter the DM from starting a "dead-end" campaign to begin with (if you assume the Thiones don't know about the foreign powers behind Zaranda and Haedrak, but that their bid is doomed because the Chosen will crush it or depose them once they are successful since the Chosen have an interest in a friendly Tethyr).
Well, the Thiones might be wary of the "powerful foriegn wizards" but that would hardly stop them from schemeing. I'd just see them taking that into account and building up enough force to get around them (the powerful foriegn wizards).
Gotta stop now, I'll try to finish up later
The Chosen are immortal in their template. I won't give my feelings on this, but that's definetely in the template.
Ok, the word is ageless, not immortal. Big gigantor difference. Fzoul is also ageless. Horrible horrible thing when the Gods gift Their favs. How dare they.
Just consider one thing; they are the chosen of the GODDESS OF MAGIC, Mystra.
Which would make me think they were probably rather powerful. Go on...
Who according to official cannon is able to BLOCK the development of new magic IF IT WORKS AGAINST HER INTEREST.
True, the Goddess of a thing may defend that thing. Since every spell that doesn't directly harm magic adds to Her, the only things that She would stand against is something that threatens the free use of magic. Any arguement with that?
I therefore conclude that according to official cannon you as the D.M no longer have carte blanche
If you pick up the DMG you will see that the last 10 words in that quote have never been, aren't now, and will never be valid in the game of AD&D.
to devise surprising interesting elements to your plots if the main villains in your own campaign work against the best interests of the Chosen of Mystra
No, it mean's that plot will run afoul of Her Church. Once again something Mystra is more than justified in doing. She doesn't thump apprentice smudges just for funsies. If She did Shar would likely reply in kind, and a whole new trial would begin, or a war. Blaming way to much on novel writers here. Have your plot. Work it in later, if you want to.
I'm not sure that injecting real world examples into the FR setting does anything to advance this discussion. Certainly there are instances where this works, but there are numerous states within this gaming world that, though similar in some ways to what we are familiar with, simply don't really correlate to an "Earth" example.
Zarranda Starr and Haedrick/Lhaeo might make for both an odd couple and a strange pair of rulers given our real-world precedent and cultural influences, but at some point we have to understand that they operate under different constraints/rules in the FR.
Ultimately, Zarranda--mercenary captain, adventuress, sell-sword, and self-made noble--is the Queen-Regent. Haedrick, the lawful heir, has chosen to cede most authority of rule to her. Perhaps this wouldn't work in Russia, as you correctly state, but Realmsian Tethyr is not that place.
Beyond that, I don't see how your assumption that any Chosen would come to Lhaeo's rescue (insofar as his continuing rulership is concerned) is any more than just that. There have been comparable events (to the fall of a realm, or throne) that have received no assistance from the Chosen. A quick example off the top of my head was the siege of Mithril Hall by Obould. Alustriel, though a friend, associate, and bound ally to both Bruenor Battlehammer and his friend Drizzt Do'Urden, refrained from aiding the Dwarven realm out of strategic necessity. If the sort of behavior you argue is representative of the Chosen was, in fact, the norm, Alustriel--a 22nd-level Epic arcane caster/Chosen of Mystra--should have spirited herself over the battle and used her magic to do an amazing amount of harm on the Orcs.
That's my last direct response to you. I'm rather weary of you taking small parts of my posts out of context and acting as though that was my whole point. You spent three paragraphs berating me about one historical example I used to show why I thought Haedrak had weakened his absolute legitimacy and why a noble rebellion was more plausible because he ceded authority to his less legitimate wife. That's simply not fair as it wasn't the point of my post.
Ok, the word is ageless, not immortal. Big gigantor difference. Fzoul is also ageless. Horrible horrible thing when the Gods gift Their favs. How dare they.
Fzoul still dies when his time is up tho';)
Anyway, I'm not sure how being ageless is something special. Then again, having lived as long as I have, being ageless loses it's appeal.
Fzoul still dies when his time is up tho';)
Anyway, I'm not sure how being ageless is something special. Then again, having lived as long as I have, being ageless loses it's appeal.
I just checked the FRCS and you're right, it does say immune to aging. That's a bit odd, because the Chosen live forever and are immune to death by natural causes, but Fzoul has the same benefit and will die at his natural time.
What the Chosen really have is immortality, but not invulnerability.
I just checked the FRCS and you're right, it does say immune to aging. That's a bit odd, because the Chosen live forever and are immune to death by natural causes, but Fzoul has the same benefit and will die at his natural time.
What the Chosen really have is immortality, but not invulnerability.
The Chosen of Mystra template grants immunity to aging (they don't age, never die of old age, that sort of thing), while the Chosen of Bane template (in Faiths and Pantheons) grants immunity to the effects of aging, but doesn't prevent the person from dying when their time is up, pretty much exactly like a monk's timeless body. Weird, I know.
So yes, technically speaking, the Chosen of Mystra are effectively immortal in terms of naturally caused death.
Fine, Phil. You craft a campaign where the Tethyrian monarchy is overthrown and a LE noble comes to power and you see if your players don't ask whether the Chosen should have been involved at the end.
That's my last direct response to you. I'm rather weary of you taking small parts of my posts out of context and acting as though that was my whole point.
Are you kidding me? I addressed that part of your post because it's the only one wherein you volunteer any thoughts on HOW or WHY the Chosen would interfere with things. Before that, your argument largely boiled down to "This happens" or "This person would do this" without offering any reason as to how you came to these conclusions.
What do you want me to do? I can't judge someone's opinion until they qualify it. If you tell me you hate lemonade, I certainly can't question that. If you tell me you hate lemonade because you detest oranges, then, forgive me if I question the validity of your comment!
Beyond that, I HAVE had plots such as the ones you describe occur in my Realms. My players don't question my calls. We talk during and after gaming sessions, and we share input and questions about how things work. If someone has a misconception regarding the workings of the realms, I explain my POV and offer my reinforcing evidence.
Ultimately, if you're having problems with players who question YOUR ability as the DM to do X, Y, or Z in YOUR Realms... Well, you have a problem greater than the illusion that certain NPCs are too much of an influence on the Realms. That problem centers with your players, who are either unwilling or unable to suspend disbelief--a prerequisite for a game that centers on stories crafted by an "omnipotent" referee.
Don't want to respond to this? It's your prerogative.
With the Chosen to be taken into account, the CR of the Demon Lord matters more than it should, especially since the Demon Lord was originally inserted into the plot line (and if this was a different thread, I might give the whole "story") to possibly explain why the Chosen wouldn't risk confrontation with my Thione villain, but that ended up not making as much sense as I wanted, hence the Chosen leading to a scrapping of the idea and the CR of the Demon Lord being much less important.
Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. If Tsar Nicolas II had abdicated his right to rule to his wife, Tsarina Alexandra, Russia's monarchy would not have survived even as long as it did. In the real world, few monarchs historically would have been able to get away with this maneuver. Its more acceptable in a fantasy environment, but in my mind it still weakens their over all legitimacy (as in right to rule based on legal and dynastic privilege, not so much how the bulk of their subjects view the situation).
Very few medieval monarchs depended on popular support. Perhaps a debate for another time, but really its up to the DM how much of Ed Greenwood's modern politics you want to use in your setting.
Don't be facetious.
He did have an army of reclamation recruited from Waterdeep and Waterdeep nobility. These Waterdeep nobles are the foreign nobles referred to in the FRCS. They stayed on to replace noble families that supported the Pretender.
Well, again, the problem here isn't how the Chosen limit PC's, its how the Chosen limit villains and thus, indirectly, limit the role of the PC's. In this case, the Chosen would deter the Thiones from making their bid to begin with (if you assume that people know the foreign backing the current rulers received, which the FRCS suggests is possible when it refers to tensions between new and old nobles) or would deter the DM from starting a "dead-end" campaign to begin with (if you assume the Thiones don't know about the foreign powers behind Zaranda and Haedrak, but that their bid is doomed because the Chosen will crush it or depose them once they are successful since the Chosen have an interest in a friendly Tethyr).
For the record, this is the entirety of the post I was addressing.
I didn't bother to argue the ability of Demon Lords with you because I don't own the book you quoted.
As for the last paragraph (and some of the first paragraph), I did disagree with the basic premise of the argument, though, in that I didn't see how you felt the Chosen would be OBLIGED to interfere to begin with. As evidence, I provided Alustriel's actions, above.
As to powerful foreign wizards... as I recall Khelben was holding the Royal Regalia for whatever reason, and El was holding onto the Crown Prince. Kinda hard for them not to get involved. But don't forget about Gamalon Idogyr, Perendra Rasslemtar, or that Calishite who ended up marrying that Duke in Velen (name escapes me at the moment, but I'm pretty sure she was a decent wizardess if memory serves)... they aren't exactly slouches, and I think Perendra is the only native Tethyrian there (and the poster-girl of archmagedom in the FRCS as I recall). El and Khelben provided material support, but I don't recall either of them getting involved in the actual fighting.
The Chosen of Mystra template grants immunity to aging (they don't age, never die of old age, that sort of thing), while the Chosen of Bane template (in Faiths and Pantheons) grants immunity to the effects of aging, but doesn't prevent the person from dying when their time is up, pretty much exactly like a monk's timeless body. Weird, I know.
So yes, technically speaking, the Chosen of Mystra are effectively immortal in terms of naturally caused death.
Ah. Not that weird. Mystra's Chosen are ageless. Fzoul is age resistant. +1 for Tia2.
Ah. Not that weird. Mystra's Chosen are ageless. Fzoul is age resistant. +1 for Tia2.
I meant weird in the "why isn't Fzoul ageless like the Chosen of Mystra?". It seems like it'd save Bane a lot of trouble to have an 'eternal tyrant' rather than having to choose another one every human generation (which is rather short for...gods) and have them be rather green. The bonus side of Mystra's Chosen is all the experience gained over the course of centuries. simply seems like a wasted short term investment from Bane.
One big problem with comparing to Faerun to the 'real-world' is that you don't have the concept of Divine Right in rulership. . .popular acclaim or armed might would form the most logical basis for legitimacy. Possession is 9/10ths of the law sort of thing makes the most sense to me in the context of Faerun, personally.
Apparently I shouldn't have used a historical example when explaining why I thought Haedrak might be riper for discontent than his status as the rightful heir might suggest, but honestly, it was a small part of my post, I immediately qualified the example, and what else are we supposed to use as examples when conjuring up hypotheticals, other fantasy worlds? I won't make that mistake again and next time I want a comparison, I'll use Tolkien's views on politics.
I still think Haedrak III would be more likely to enjoy universal support if he ruled directly than if he rules through his parvenu Queen. The fact that Zaranda is Queen-Monarch is more likely to breed resentment among native-born nobles whose titles are more ancient and who enjoyed more power or privilege during the Interregnum or under King Alemander, in my opinion.
I meant weird in the "why isn't Fzoul ageless like the Chosen of Mystra?". It seems like it'd save Bane a lot of trouble to have an 'eternal tyrant' rather than having to choose another one every human generation (which is rather short for...gods) and have them be rather green. The bonus side of Mystra's Chosen is all the experience gained over the course of centuries. simply seems like a wasted short term investment from Bane.
Well, I can't think of El ever wanting to slit Mystra stem to stern and subsume her power. Give Fzoul 400 yrs. Just saying.
Replies to multiple posts here...
I am aware of how templates work, and yes, I feel the level adjustment for the Chosen template (+4) is a tad low. The template adds, off the top of my head: +10 constitution, immunity to 1 spell per spell level (and related effects*, unless I misremember, which is entirely possible), Silver Fire**, other effects that I can't remember off hand - part of my problem being that the various Epic benefits of various characters are run together with their Chosen benefits in the descriptions, and I don't have the books open in front of me (nor in the same building, I'm afraid). As far as the Shapechange example, I used the Simbul as an example because that was one of the powers she possesses according to the FRCS.
Since I've not actually played a Chosen of Mystra, nor seen the template in play for someone else, I don't think I'm really in a position to comment on its power. From first blush, it certianly looks more powerful than LA +4... But the proof is in the eating, so to speak. ;) (Some powers wouldn't work nearly as well as they look like they would on paper.)
As for Shapechange being a permanent ability for the Simbul, she used a Wish or other magical experimentation - such things are available to the PCs as well. If the DM doesn't want your character to use Wish in that manner, she should strip all the Wish related specials from the Simbul as well. The PCs should be able to do whatever the NPCs can.
IMO, templates are problematic whatever the origin, because they add a sometimes large - and often poorly defined - boost to the character. Templates of any type come at the whim (or design, I don't mean to belittle DMs who have used templates. i have used them myself in the past, so I'm criticizing myself here) of the DM, rather than thru any path or progression of the character. One can work towards gaining 4 character levels through several adventures, but being handed them as a bonus (whether for being bitten by a vampire, a werewolf, or a capricious diety of magic) is unbalancing.
It can be. But that's part of the job of the DM. And it's the responsibility of the players to let the DM know when something isn't working. This is supposed to be an interactive game, you know. ;)
As to your other point, I don't think the "Servant of a God" limitation for the Chosen is any more limiting than being a Cleric. In fact, other than Elminster, why is it that none of the Chosen have levels in any Cleric-type class? If the Chosen template simply added 4 levels of Cleric (as an example), I don't think I'd find them at all imbalancing.
Qilue has a significant number of cleric levels, in fact I think that's pretty much all she has. (16th level Cleric of Eilistraee, if I'm not mistaken, and I probably am, but not on the fact that she's nearly all cleric.)
@Stigger
Actually, the Divine Right does exist in Faerun. Her name is Siamorphe, and she's the goddess of nobles, the rightful rule of nobles, and human royalty. Zaranda converted to her worship at some point between the events in the novel War in Tethyr and the release of Lands of Intrigue. The church of Siamorphe is mostly confined to the nobility of Waterdeep and Tethyr, but I'm sure that's not for lack of trying to get involved in other places (such as Cormyr).
Zevox
Apparently I shouldn't have used a historical example when explaining why I thought Haedrak might be riper for discontent than his status as the rightful heir might suggest, but honestly, it was a small part of my post, I immediately qualified the example, and what else are we supposed to use as examples when conjuring up hypotheticals, other fantasy worlds? I won't make that mistake again and next time I want a comparison, I'll use Tolkien's views on politics.
But unfortunately Tolkien's politics are not Realmsian politics. Realmsian politics is most closely mirrored by other settings of Dungeons and Dragons or other high magic worlds. High level magic and fighters who can take on 10, 20 or even more people make the world a completely different place. Perhaps we can start another thread about the nature of Realmsian politcs, I think it'd be a worthwhile subject.
I still think Haedrak III would be more likely to enjoy universal support if he ruled directly than if he rules through his parvenu Queen. The fact that Zaranda is Queen-Monarch is more likely to breed resentment among native-born nobles whose titles are more ancient and who enjoyed more power or privilege during the Interregnum or under King Alemander, in my opinion.
Nah, no one get's universal support (though I know that's not what you really mean as I think you do know that such a thing doesn't exist
). I think, before I get into Tethyrian politics, that I'd have to read War in Tethyr (what's the publishing date on that). It may or may not be a good book but I could likely read it and . . . nudge things to make it work in my mind. ;)I meant weird in the "why isn't Fzoul ageless like the Chosen of Mystra?".
Could be that the agelessness of the Chosen of Mystra is directly caused by the spark of divine essense they carry (Though it may be more than a spark, but from what I've read it really is a fraction. It could be that a certain amount of Mystra must be present in the Realms in order for the Weave to be, maybe that's why she has Chosen, probably not though) and that Bane don't give out a real spark.
Fine, Phil. You craft a campaign where the Tethyrian monarchy is overthrown and a LE noble comes to power and you see if your players don't ask whether the Chosen should have been involved at the end.
And that's where I say "You've got no clue." and if they persist then I tell them that if they want to find out then they have to do it in game. If they continue to pester me I warn them of metagaming penalties.
Trying to find out why the Chosen didn't "swoop in and save the day" is SUCH a rich storyline. Further, in a situation like Tethyr it's even justified, however, if they don't have knowledge (Tethyr, Waterdeep or something applicable) I'll smack them down so fast their heads spin.
They could run afoul of a Zhent assasin team who're out for El's blood (whom El would whipe the floor with, but they haven't gotten to Shadowdale yet) and after the PCs kick some Zhent tail (perhaps you could even make it a mocking fight, portray the Zhent assasin team with the utmost contempt you may feel at some of the things you've read, give you're players a real good laugh) El can come out and thank them for taking them out. Then the PCs can ask him why he didn't interfere with the events in Tethyr he can give them a disapointed look and say "There is only one of me you know. In order for good to flourish there must be more than one old man standing up to tyrany in this great big world. Besides, do you know how imperriled I've made Haedraks rule as is? If I were to come and 'save him' everytime he stumbled the folk of his land would never accept him for a leader. Besides, Zaranda would scour my hide!"
He could bid them fairwell and soon after the PCs may be approached by Storm and she could ask them if they saw a certain item when they were in a Thionian (I just made that up!) stronghold or if they saw a certain man of X description? Then she can explain how a Demon Lord took a certain Siamorphian religions item when he escaped into the Abyss...
So. . . yeah, I see no problem with the Chosen
Neither are the Chosen saints themselves. A few of them might be basis for Exalted material, but the whole Valorous designation for Champions of Valor tried to step away from that with their own definitions. Champions of Ruin had a similar take, these books aren't just BoVD and BoED for the Realms. CoR had a feat called Touch of Benevolence which allowed an evil character to perform the occasional good act without losing their Vile bonuses. Khelben brokered a deal with one of his enemies which lead to a split in the Harpers. He made good more disjointed. The Srinshee practically confessed to doing some villainous things in the name of a greater good. Things aren't as clear cut in the Realms as previous material presented it as, never was, some steps have been made to show this variation.
Mystra's Chosen had lots of exposure in previous material, but now we're stating to see some material on Chosen of other deities, mostly with Mask who has several now. Ubtao always had a handful. The gods of nature have share three for a long time. I believe the lore even hinted that Cyric has more Seraphs (his version of the chosen) than just Malik el Sami yn Nasser.
It seems a lot of this stems not from the actual affect the Chosen might have on the Realms, but on personal dislike of the characters, their attitudes, personalities, history. I will not say the Chosen present absolutely no problem at all, but I do believe they don't provide much of a problem, not beyond any group or individual with any sort of power. They might get involved eventually, but typically there is more than enough room to have your take at the setting without them showing up.
As for comparisons with the Circle of Eight. The Chosen don't seem all that different over the long term. While it isn't the case, for this example, let's say the Chosen will, without a doubt, react against evil and promote good. The Circle of Eight, as I understand them, try to maintain a balance between all alignments, even law and chaos. So there is an equal chance for them to work against good as they will against evil, depending on the situation. This seems to allow more DM freedom, but this really only works in a similarly limited number of ways. They could want a good group in control, so there would be little real reason for them not to get involved. If they wanted an evil group in control, they would work against the good PCs, still getting involved, but they're villains in this case, so it's a little better. Do remember that this applies to the law vs. chaos alignment axis also. So in the long run, the times the Circle of Eight could get involved in politics, intrigue and epic plots are about the same as the Chosen and other groups. The Circle also has more characters of variable alignment, ensuring that some members of the Circle would oppose the PCs no matter their alignment.
Of course if this happened and the other Circle members got involved, it would lead to a wizard war. Given their power and influences, no matter how covert, this conflict would force some drastic events to take place, most likely involving the PCs. If the Circle took each other out, then that caveat is no better than the ones given for the Chosen. I think the Circle would definitely watch a PC group like hawks if they became powerful enough to potentially change the rulership of a city, that certainly affects the Circle's interests since the PCs are power out of their control. Ultimately, you are left with the same choices, involve the Circle, make then "unrealistically inactive," or ignore them. Such intricacy happens with any decently thought out setting, and Greyhawk does have a fair amount of material and thought put into it, at least some versions of it.
The real situation to all these different sides is probably something in the middle. There probably will never be one blanket statement to cover all the possibilities, but broad statements rarely adequately cover detailed settings, whether the Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, or one's own setting.
Zandilar, sure Siamorphe espouses a very loose form of Divine Right, but its hardly the form that is implied in the European Catholic interpretation of the concept. Siamorphes is tied to the concept of duty to subjects and priveledge of station, not the idea that a person and family are ordained by divine writ to literally be better than others. Only place I could see that coming up is in the Church of Bane, and perhaps Cyric, and even then it seems more tied to the idea of a rather brutal meritocracy rather than an enforced hereditary supremacy.
I meant weird in the "why isn't Fzoul ageless like the Chosen of Mystra?". It seems like it'd save Bane a lot of trouble to have an 'eternal tyrant' rather than having to choose another one every human generation (which is rather short for...gods) and have them be rather green. The bonus side of Mystra's Chosen is all the experience gained over the course of centuries. simply seems like a wasted short term investment from Bane.
The whole Mystras' Chosen are ageless/immortal as shown in the source books doesn't seem to be completely true. Ed has shown that El is starting to feel his age and slow down, and Kelben was beginning to worry about signs of aging like loosing some of his memory. Given that both of these are around 1000 years (give or take a century), perhaps this should really be an extended life span rather than no aging/imortality.
I've never quite understood why the other gods haven't made their chosen long lived rather than the whole "youth" until death thing.
But unfortunately Tolkien's politics are not Realmsian politics. Realmsian politics is most closely mirrored by other settings of Dungeons and Dragons or other high magic worlds. High level magic and fighters who can take on 10, 20 or even more people make the world a completely different place. Perhaps we can start another thread about the nature of Realmsian politcs, I think it'd be a worthwhile subject.
If anything, Realmsian politics, due to the nature of the Realms (high level of magic, individuals that can ruin nations, and thousands of years of steady cultural flux) would more closely be compared to modern Western politics than anything in the past.
I'll have to search through the reply files for the replies I'm thinking about - - I'll re-post them here when I've found them.
If anything, Realmsian politics, due to the nature of the Realms (high level of magic, individuals that can ruin nations, and thousands of years of steady cultural flux) would more closely be compared to modern Western politics than anything in the past.
And even then it's not an accurate comparison because of a whole bevy of reasons.
Unless you're talking more European than American specifically, in which case I'd say it's getting closer but still not really similar.
Zandilar, sure Siamorphe espouses a very loose form of Divine Right, but its hardly the form that is implied in the European Catholic interpretation of the concept. Siamorphes is tied to the concept of duty to subjects and priveledge of station, not the idea that a person and family are ordained by divine writ to literally be better than others. Only place I could see that coming up is in the Church of Bane, and perhaps Cyric, and even then it seems more tied to the idea of a rather brutal meritocracy rather than an enforced hereditary supremacy.
I know. I only mentioned her because she's relevant to Tethyr, and she's known as the Divine Right. I've always thought that Siamorphe fits rather uneasily into the setting, given that Divine Right is kind of a Monarch Deity*/Monothesic Deity kind of thing, and doesn't fit all that well into a true polythesic setting.
I'm rather surprised that Bane hasn't made any moves to destroy her/absorb her by now.
* By Monarch Deity, I means "Ruler of the Pantheon", which Siamorphe is quite obviously not!
And sure she fits into the setting. She's not just about the rights and priveledges of nobility, but their responsibilities and duties as well. Seems like a good fit to me, considering how unscrewed up the Realms nobles are, at least in comparison to their earthly counterparts.
I kinda suspect that since her worship is largely confined to one or two small regions most of the time, implied to be so at least, that Bane hasn't really bothered with her because she just isn't worth his time. Not like Ao is gonna let him have her/his portfolio as it is, unless he wants to fundamentally alter the way nobility and rulership works in the Realms.
You're probably right there, she's really too small to worry about. Though I'm sure she'd make a tasty snack for Bane if she ended up becoming bothersome - and there's nothing saying a god can't twist a portfolio to his own ends... You know, he's the Tyrant of the gods, he'd probably love to change the way nobility and rulership work - there'd probably be nothing more satisfying for Bane than to see Azoun V grow up to be a ruthless tyrant - or wozisname in Tethyr, Inselm Hhune, overthrow Zaranda and rule Tethyr with an cruel iron fist?
And sure she fits into the setting. She's not just about the rights and priveledges of nobility, but their responsibilities and duties as well. Seems like a good fit to me, considering how unscrewed up the Realms nobles are, at least in comparison to their earthly counterparts.
What I think doesn't fit is the idea that a god nominates/elevates one person above all others to the throne (which is, in essence, what Divine Right is), then has them rule by a divine mandate (another aspect of the concept of Divine Right). If Siamorphe was the sole goddess giving rulers a divine mandate, she'd be squished like a bug or simply laughed out of the pantheon. While the gods might be meddlesome, the good ones as a general rule don't meddle that much - having said that, there are always exceptions.
However, her aspects as goddess of the duties and responsibilities of nobles fits nicely - especially taking into concideration how small her worship base is, and how much luck she's had getting into other places with nobles. (ie: there are enough nobles who think they're entitled to their title by sheer geneology, and don't take their duties and responsibilities seriously enough to concider worshiping a goddess like Siamorphe.)
As to Inselm Hhune, not likely that Bane want him on the throne of Tethyr, he's pretty firmly in the grasps of Gargauth, who seems like a very good foil for Bane on the evil end of things. I'd say he'd want to turn one of the Crown Heirs into his puppet more than allowing one of Gargauth's lackeys to sit on the throne, or better yet, having Teldorn Darkhope conquer Tethyr and seizing its throne...
Kinda depends on how Divine Right is defined in the context of the Realms, not the context it has on Earth. Divine Right in terms of Earth is entirely wrapped up in Catholic dogma, so really has no easy translation to the Realms, at least as far as a semi-medieval european style setting is concerned. Not sure how Siamorphe defines Divine Right though, its been a while since I looked at her description in detail, and I'm feeling too crap at the moment to really analyze it.
Well when you put it that way... It is true that we can't compare Realmsian concepts to Earth ones, but by the same token, "Divine Right" has Earth significance, and thus we, as humans on Earth, are coloured by our own associations of the concept.
Anyway, I just grabbed F&P off the shelf, and looking at her dogma, she appears to be the goddess of the rules of succession and the duties and responsibilities of the nobility. In other words, if we were going only by the Earth concept of what the Divine Right is, calling Siamorphe that would be a complete misnomer. But we're not, and since this is the case, I can only conclude that the Realms concept is quite a bit different to the Earth concept - the difference being in the latter God (or a god, depending on when and where we are in history), touched a person and made them noble, where as in the Realms they're noble by dint of their bloodline, with no god involved to the same extent anywhere in the process.
And now I'm confused.
I hope that was clearer to you. ;)As to Inselm Hhune, not likely that Bane want him on the throne of Tethyr, he's pretty firmly in the grasps of Gargauth, who seems like a very good foil for Bane on the evil end of things. I'd say he'd want to turn one of the Crown Heirs into his puppet more than allowing one of Gargauth's lackeys to sit on the throne, or better yet, having Teldorn Darkhope conquer Tethyr and seizing its throne...
Yeah, I kind of knew I was reaching, and Hhune was the evil noble from Tethyr that I actually remembered at the time of my post - unfortunately, I forgot about his association with Gargauth. Ah well...
I'd wish Bane or anyone else luck swaying one of Zaranda's children...
With Earth, if you're born into nobility, you're a noble, period. There was no mobility per se for social strata the majority of the time, though obviously there were exceptions for extraordinary individuals. If you were born a farmer, you were ordained by God to be a farmer and trying to go against that role was tantamount to rebellion against heaven's order. Divine Right is usually applied to nobility, but it also has implications for the rest of the social order, at least in the context of Earth.
I don't see any evidence of that sort of definition for Siamorphe, and a peasant could be a natural leader and meant to be a noble, and could even rise to that rank through their actions, with the Church not really blinking so long as the person was capable and competent... at least as far as I'm understanding the dogma. You're born with a noble's heart, but not necessarily a noble's background sort of thing. Of course those born into nobility have a natural advantage in the matter, but it's not necessarily an absolute prerequisite sort of thing.
Admittedly, her backing of Zaranda also clashes with the 3.0 Faiths and Pantheons, so there is at least some tension in her portrayal.
The love for the monarchy of Tethyr has driven me from this thread. Zaranda is among my least favorite Realms characters, and I think I've said all I can on the topic of the Chosen in campaigns and Tethyr's situation as it relates to the Chosen.
Enjoy all.Your view of Siamorphe is very progressive, Stigger, but it seems to clash with Faiths and Pantheons and even more so with the 2e presentation of her. Siamorphe is presented as one of the few "conservative" dogmas that isn't "evil" or negatively portrayed in the Realms.
I do have to agree with that, to a point. Most notably the portrayal of Sun Elves in recent sources.
Well, I would say that nobility by heredity is a more slippery concept in the Realms, considering the Church of Siamorphe was backing of Zaranda as queen, though she didn't technically have a rightful claim on it, as far as I understood. I always got the impression they backed her far more than they did Haedrak anyway it went, though I could be wrong on that matter.
Well noble lines have to begin somewhere! In Zaranda's case, I think she bought the title of Count, and that well... counts. The other thing, of course, is that nobility works differently depending on where you are in the Realms. In Waterdeep, for example, a successful merchant family/dynasty might well win the approval of the other nobles of Waterdeep (at great expense and with plenty of favours owed), and thereby gain nobility. In Cormyr, it is clearly by bloodline, with the King/Regent being able to promote people. In Tethyr, at the time, the nobility was definitely in flux.
It also probably counts that Zaranda converted to Siamorphe. I don't think we know about Haedrak's peity, but Zaranda definitely embraced Siamorphe - whether this was before or after Siamorphe actually manifested her approval, I'm not sure (and away from my books again, so I can't check).
With Earth, if you're born into nobility, you're a noble, period. There was no mobility per se for social strata the majority of the time, though obviously there were exceptions for extraordinary individuals. If you were born a farmer, you were ordained by God to be a farmer and trying to go against that role was tantamount to rebellion against heaven's order. Divine Right is usually applied to nobility, but it also has implications for the rest of the social order, at least in the context of Earth.
Well as I mentioned above, noble lines had to start somewhere! Most of the time, they're elevated by the ruler of the land to that position, and the ruler of the land is only ruler by dint of him (usually, but in a very few cases, her) leading an army of people who are kind of loyal to him (or her) and taking over by conquest. Though in the case of places with Divine Right, the ruler said he (or she) was appointed by God (or a god).
In Zaranda's case (and you'll see the reason for all my parenthetical comments in this paragraph), she lead an army who was kind of loyal to her (they were fed up with what was happening in their country) and conquorered the capital city of Tethyr (at the time this was Zassespur (spel?)). Once done, the people proclaimed her their Queen. Later Siamorphe came down and I think literally placed a crown on her head, so by giving her divine legitimacy (which other gods I would presume are free to disagree with, so therefore this legitimacy is only relevant to the other nobles of the land who worship or at least acknowledge Siamorphe, since she is hardly relevant to anyone else)... So there, now I've blasted my own argument out of the water, it does seem to work like Divine Right, except with less legitimacy! :D
I don't see any evidence of that sort of definition for Siamorphe, and a peasant could be a natural leader and meant to be a noble, and could even rise to that rank through their actions, with the Church not really blinking so long as the person was capable and competent... at least as far as I'm understanding the dogma. You're born with a noble's heart, but not necessarily a noble's background sort of thing. Of course those born into nobility have a natural advantage in the matter, but it's not necessarily an absolute prerequisite sort of thing.
I think largely Siamorphe is still all about who was born into a noble line. As Tiamat2 mentions, it does seem a little off that Siamorphe would support someone who bought their nobility, and then won the monarchy due to her popularity with the people. Siamorphe is quite a conservative deity, when it comes down to it... I suppose, in the end, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some noble blood lurking in Zaranda that hasn't been explicitly mentioned in sources... and really, it wouldn't be completely unrealistic either given the prevaling attitudes towards sex in the Realms.
Another reason I can't quite reconcille a truly conservative view of her is the kind and compassionate image she receives in Powers and Pantheons. She seems to favor an approach of honesty, and more importantly, self-honesty, and as such I can't see her forgetting the merchant-prince or warrior-raised-to-noble pasts that most of Waterdeep's noble families had, and almost certainly her own family had. It's a fine old tradition of how nobles are made in the first place afterall.
Sure, she looks semi-conservative in F&P, I wouldn't argue that. However... you just knew that was coming... if you read the subtext of the entry, it repeatedly stresses the idea that the nobles be fit for the task and responsible in their duties. Obviously, Tethyr's nobility strayed far from that, abdicated their duty and responsibility, and plunged the nation into a long state of chaos and virtual anarchy. Zaranda stepped up to meet the challenge and was rewarded accordingly. The dogma though does leave a lot of room for interpretation other than as a strict conservative view though. I can see where it can be interpreted that way, but I tend to see it as less conservative and more as pragmatic to prevent things like the Interregnum from happening with any frequency.
I guess the thing that's "a little off" or surprising about Siamorphe and her relationship to the Tethyrian royalty is that she had a choice of two people - Zaranda and Haedrak. The latter was from a legitimate bloodline that had every right to the throne, the former was bought nobility. She supported Zaranda. (Of course, it was Zaranda who converted to Siamorphe's faith, but that's beside the point... Siamorphe clearly had a choice, and she chose the "lesser"* noble.)
Another reason I can't quite reconcille a truly conservative view of her is the kind and compassionate image she receives in Powers and Pantheons. She seems to favor an approach of honesty, and more importantly, self-honesty, and as such I can't see her forgetting the merchant-prince or warrior-raised-to-noble pasts that most of Waterdeep's noble families had, and almost certainly her own family had. It's a fine old tradition of how nobles are made in the first place afterall.
I think, no offense to the designers of the game, that WotC and TSR have always had difficulties with the LN alignment. Several major NPCs and several deities** have their alignments listed as being LN, but they've usually acted LG, LE, or NG, sometimes TN, and sometimes, suprisingly, CG. Of course a person's alignment probably fluctuates over their lifespan (particularly those who live a long time), but there's really no excuse for a deity to act outside of their general alignment. Having said that, I will say that this is completely subjective on my part.
* I used "lesser" for lack of a better term.
** My short list, which isn't complete, includes: The Red Knight, Hoar, Khelben Arunsen, Siamorphe, Helm, and the previous Mystra***. (So yeah, that is mostly gods there, but I am going straight off the top of my head!)
*** I'll preface this by saying that I might have owned the old 1st Ed AD&D FR box, but I didn't play in it. I was introduced to the Realms later in 2nd Ed... Anyway, from that perspective, I believe the previous Mystra was probably a lot closer to CG than LN (the current Mystra is closer to NG than prior Mystra was to LN, but still tends towards Chaotic). A truely Lawful Mystra would have avoided Chaotic Chosen like the plague, IMHO, and yet the vast majority are CG.
As to problems with the LN alignment... yeah, they do seem to exist from my point of view as well. To be honest, the only portrayal of Khelben I've ever liked was in Blackstaff, and a few of "his" writings, like the one in Cloak and Dagger. The deities... well, kinda hard for me to comment much on them given that I don't read too many of the novels, but Mystra in most of the Greenwood novels that I've read doesn't seem all that LN to me either. Could possibly explain it as personality holdovers from her CN incarnation though I guess, but its kinda reaching. Helm's actions seem to be sliding towards LE if one takes the whole distasteful Maztica thing into account, but at least they acknowledged that one in Power of Faerun with the Helm made Bright entry. On the whole though, I tend to disagree in principle on deities making fictional appearances in most cases, regardless of how well written it may be... it just diminishes them to me for some reason.
The major problem with Haedrak however was that he was a reluctant Crown Prince at best, at least as far as I understand his behaviour, and was semi-forced into it by El and Khelben, as an issue of living up to his responsibilities and not hiding behind El any longer, rather than as acting as their puppets. Makes complete sense to me that Siamorphe supported Zaranda over the reluctant heir. From my read of it, Zaranda gave him the strength he needed, and he gave her the legitimacy to press her claim from a purely legal standpoint, though probably not necessary, it helped. Forgive the expression, but he didn't have the balls to step up without serious prodding, and Zaranda did. And when it was over, he seemed to head straight for the library rather than the Throne Room... again, makes sense who got the divine love and who didn't. But Siamorphe still blessed them both when it came down to it.
True enough. I should note at this point that while I like Zaranda and mostly enjoyed the novel War in Tethyr, I kind of felt the whole thing with Lhaeo/Haedrak was kind of tacked on, and the feminist in me is rather suspicious of the whole thing. (I do try to hold her back, but she's getting more cranky as I get older.)
As to problems with the LN alignment... yeah, they do seem to exist from my point of view as well. To be honest, the only portrayal of Khelben I've ever liked was in Blackstaff, and a few of "his" writings, like the one in Cloak and Dagger. The deities... well, kinda hard for me to comment much on them given that I don't read too many of the novels, but Mystra in most of the Greenwood novels that I've read doesn't seem all that LN to me either. Could possibly explain it as personality holdovers from her CN incarnation though I guess, but its kinda reaching. Helm's actions seem to be sliding towards LE if one takes the whole distasteful Maztica thing into account, but at least they acknowledged that one in Power of Faerun with the Helm made Bright entry. On the whole though, I tend to disagree in principle on deities making fictional appearances in most cases, regardless of how well written it may be... it just diminishes them to me for some reason.
In Blackstaff, Khelben still appeared Good to me because he was working towards the ultimate good for the most number of people he could manage it for. That's the very definition of Lawful Good. He might have Neutral tendancies simply because he's willing to do whatever it takes, but in the end his concern for the good of others outweighs this.
Since we're talking without using spoiler blocks, I won't either - so if anyone who just casually wants to read our conversation in this thread - there are spoilers for the novel Blackstaff below.
Interesting take on Blackstaff... I can see your point there. But I have to admit he always struck me as slanted more towards good more because of Laeral's influences rather than his own innate ones. I'm not sure about his motivations for doing so... the state of Laeral at the end of that book balanced out a lot of the good he did, at least for me. Kinda hard to find the words to describe my feelings towards that ending really, without sounding like I'm referring to him as a rat bastard for that.
Strangely enough the first thing that came to mind was that it wasn't Khelben's fault. I'm sure he had no intention of dying right then and there, but circumstances forced his hand... But then I remembered that he had been planning for this eventuallity for a long time - including manipulating the lich. In any event, I'm sure he didn't really want to hurt Laeral, and I'm also sure his grief was quite immense at having to leave her and his children behind.
I wasn't terribly impressed with the ending of the novel either. But that's all I'll say on the matter, otherwise I'll go off on yet another tangent. ;)
LN seems to fit for Khelben in Blackstaff. True, he works toward the greater good, but he does it in a regimented manner, and pretty much drags everyone else along without alot of compassion (check specifically his interactions with his apprentice - he pretty much uses her as a tool throughout the story).
The rapid way things advanced in the novel lead me to believe he wasn't letting himself feel anything, because if he did, he might not have the strength to do what he did.
It is unfortunate that we only got to see Khelben through Tsarra's eyes. I would have loved to see more interaction with Laeral (of all the Chosen, he and Laeral are the "odd couple" - and if Khelben is truely LN, then their alignments are almost diametrically opposite... I just don't see how that could have worked, but it did)... I think that would have given us a far better perspective on Khelben than what we got with Tsarra.
@Stigger - oh well, why the heck not? *hangs on as the tangent takes off*
The ending disappointed me because there was too much boy toy* and not enough Laeral. The romance between boy toy and Tsarra was tacked on, they barely exchanged more than 10 lines in the whole novel, and yet at the end Tsarra was jumping into bed with him. Of course, if there hadn't been all this foreshadowing and hints at "love", I would have just written that off as Tsarra herself described it - wanting to feel alive... But I bet we're going to be forced to swallow the idea that she and boy toy do end up hooking up when their stats are released in whatever next product comes out updating Waterdeep (the next edition?).
I would have been far more interested in seeing what happened with Laeral and exactly what effect hosting Khelben's mind had on Tsarra herself. (And if we get past the grief and the pregnancy bits, the slash potential is huge! :angelhide)
* I really did like Raegar as a character, despite how it might sound.
Which I think was a foreshadowing of Tsarra and Raegar. There was a lot of subtext going on between the two of them really, despite the lack of chattiness. Things kept going south the entire novel, yet they both kept each other in mind over the course of it... that and the Tressym liked him, and had already decided he was a good mate for her. How could the Tressym be wrong? She was right about most other stuff afterall, when she graced them with her opinion, at least as I recall it...
I liked Raegar quite a bit myself though, as an afterthought. The divine seeker of Oghma angle was very enticing I thought, at least I presume he was a divine seeker since that seemed to be what he did for the Church. Kinda nice to see some of the more esoteric PrC's being used in unconventional ways.
Though I suspect you're right about him not letting himself feel much of anything, lest he falter. He's a pretty complex character in that novel, and seems to be swinging a lot of different ways on the alignment spectrum, which really worked well there, I thought. I still don't like the way it ended, but it was appropriate with all of his other actions. Still have no idea why he went to Arvandor rather than Dweomerheart mind you, but considering how much he worked on behalf of the elves, it shouldn't be that surprising. Though that does bring up the point that he seemed to live his life with a ends justifying the means approach to things, which is a fairly neutral moral aspect, so maybe that does make sense afterall.
In regards to Khelben and Laeral... opposites attract I suppose. I always got the impression that the two of them balanced each other out and made the other whole. Sort of a yin and yang thing, to borrow a tired cliche. Besides, he knew he was destined to love her... she was his soul mate. I seem to recall him having a vision of that mentioned somewhere in Blackstaff. Though it still would have been nice to have more interaction with Laeral... she did seem very much ignored during that whole story, for the most part anyway. But on the bright side, at least she's single again. :D
I've never bought into the "opposites attract" cliche. There needs to be a certian amount of common ground between people if they're going to make a long term relationshp work... LN and CG are about as different as you can get (only LE/CG would be more different).
As for her being single... I have a sinking feeling that we won't see Laeral around for quite a while.
And when she does return... I don't see them pairing her up with anyone else ever.Which I think was a foreshadowing of Tsarra and Raegar. There was a lot of subtext going on between the two of them really, despite the lack of chattiness. Things kept going south the entire novel, yet they both kept each other in mind over the course of it... that and the Tressym liked him, and had already decided he was a good mate for her. How could the Tressym be wrong? She was right about most other stuff afterall, when she graced them with her opinion, at least as I recall it...
Subtext? No, it wasn't sub at all. It was clumsily main text. It would have been far more realistic if Raegar and Tsarra had actually had some, you know, meaningful interaction. But given the circumstances, that just wasn't possible (Khel in her head, Danthra in her head, no space for herself to think properly, basically). If I were Tsarra I would have been too caught up in everything else to go much beyond "oh he's cute".
Now I know what Nameless said about it - but would you believe a male tressym who would bonk any female feline that he could get at? Seriously, he's got no basis for making such comments beyond noting that Tsarra was attracted to him, and that he liked Raegar. Potential mate to a tressym wouldn't mean "potential soulmate whom you will spend the rest of your life with", it would mean "potential sex partner who will have your babies".
I liked Raegar quite a bit myself though, as an afterthought. The divine seeker of Oghma angle was very enticing I thought, at least I presume he was a divine seeker since that seemed to be what he did for the Church. Kinda nice to see some of the more esoteric PrC's being used in unconventional ways.
Strange as this might sound coming from me, but I would have liked to have seen more of him. He had real potential as a character. It isn't often we get to see religious people in the Realms, and though Raegar wasn't a cleric - his faith wasn't pushed to the side and competely forgotten as it usually is for any other Realms character (aside from a Chosen, but their faith usually goes unstated/assumed).
Though I suspect you're right about him not letting himself feel much of anything, lest he falter. He's a pretty complex character in that novel, and seems to be swinging a lot of different ways on the alignment spectrum, which really worked well there, I thought. I still don't like the way it ended, but it was appropriate with all of his other actions. Still have no idea why he went to Arvandor rather than Dweomerheart mind you, but considering how much he worked on behalf of the elves, it shouldn't be that surprising. Though that does bring up the point that he seemed to live his life with a ends justifying the means approach to things, which is a fairly neutral moral aspect, so maybe that does make sense afterall.
He went to Arvandor because in life it was his secret wish to actually be an elf. I suppose his elven blood allows him to go to Arvandor, and I don't think Mystra would stop him... Though it completely breaks with what happens for everyone else! By all rights, he should have had no choice in the matter - since he was faithful to Mystra, he should have gone to Dweomerheart.
I've never bought into the "opposites attract" cliche. There needs to be a certian amount of common ground between people if they're going to make a long term relationshp work... LN and CG are about as different as you can get (only LE/CG would be more different).
Opposites DO attract, at times. I should know... My first relationship was with someone who was probably CN on the alignment scale. ;) But they just don't last very long unless they have a lot in common besides alignment. And being a Chosen is really an experience that is unlike any other in existence: that alone would give Laeral and Khelben an incredibly tight bond already.
As for her being single... I have a sinking feeling that we won't see Laeral around for quite a while. And when she does return... I don't see them pairing her up with anyone else ever.
I agree with the latter at least. I'd be pretty upset if they did.
Khelben and Laeral were one of the great, lasting romances of the Realms (I always felt); it'd be almost like Arwen getting a new Aragorn if he had died.Being single... well, just because WotC doesn't do anything with her doesn't mean those of us at home can't. :D
As to the whole subtext thing, I read a lot of it into the novel personally, they seemed to be very comfortable with each other when they were around each other, and I suspect a lot of Khelben's love for Laeral was coloring her view of Raegar... though it might have been more interesting if that had manifested in other ways really. But I've found that in times of stress, at least on a personal level, that I usually do try to find a point of stability that I can rely on and cling to for my own mental well being, and I'm probably presuming that Tsarra was doing much the same with Raegar. He was a semi-sane constant who didn't seem that bothered by the events and pretty much kept his cool. That's reassuring in its own way, at least I would find it so. It certanly would have been nice had he had a more central role in it all, in terms of 'screentime' but there's only so much space in those books and I guess his backstory and such just wasn't pivotal enough to make the final edit, as interesting as it might have been to read it. Would have preferred another couple of hundred pages really, but I suppose I'll have to deal with that.
And I was just being obnoxious with the Tressym commentary by the way... I do that if you'll recall. ;)
To be honest though, his supposed wish to be an elf never made any sense to me... from what I recall of his childhood, the elves weren't exactly all that kind to him when he was growing up. Maybe he's just a better person that I am, or I missed something in the few things I've read about his youth, but helping out the elves would have been the farthest thing from my mind had I his childhood, at least what I understand of it.
Re-reading this it seems semi-coherent... wonder if it will seem that way tomorrow. :D
Opposites DO attract, at times. I should know... My first relationship was with someone who was probably CN on the alignment scale. ;) But they just don't last very long unless they have a lot in common besides alignment. And being a Chosen is really an experience that is unlike any other in existence: that alone would give Laeral and Khelben an incredibly tight bond already.
I know, opposites attract became a cliche because there's a seed of truth in it. However, as you said, it rarely lasts. As for Khelben and Laeral - well I don't think I'm ever going to get it. I can make guesses - like they're both Chosen, and Khelben rescued Laeral from the Crown of Horns and nursed her back to sanity - but "grateful for being saved" is also a cliche, and like "opposites attract" usually isn't enough to sustain things long term.
Mystra obviously had plans for them. Once Khelben had fulfilled them, he died. Poor Laeral, left with raising the kids all on her own (though I'm sure Alustriel will probably help, given her extensive experience... Actually, now I think about it - Alustriel has 12 sons and some unnamed number of daughters - how has she managed that? She couldn't possibly have raised them all from birth, could she? Hmmm).
I agree with the latter at least. I'd be pretty upset if they did.
People move on. Laeral has a long lonely time ahead of her, raising twins on her own... Though I suppose she'll have her family, but it's unrealistic to expect she'll remain unpaired forever (and I'm sure Khelben doesn't expect her to, and probably hopes she doesn't) - and certianly unrealistic to expect her bed will stay empty for too long, even if she never "marries" or forms a long term partnership (she was never actually married to Khelben, as far as I know).... Unless, ack, they decide that she dies during childbirth... ugh. Horrible horrible thought.
I really wish I hadn't thought of that now.Can't say I really buy into opposites attracting either, I was more being faceitous there than anything else. As to those two... it does make sense to me in a lot of ways, the opposing alignments aside.
I suppose it really depends on where you think alignment fits in and how it defines a person. If you take a step back and forget their alignments, then they do seem comfortable together, and I'm sure they're fairly open in the way the communicate - though I don't think Khelben did much communicating with her in his last days.
The age thing is definitely a factor - but that hasn't stopped Storm (with Maxer, the guy from Stormlight who aparently hangs around her farm invisibly - he was human as far as I knew), or Dove (with Florin, who isn't immortal last time I checked), or Alustriel (who is quite free with her love, aparently, and has more than one lover - not all of them could possibly be immortal, and so I'm sure she knows how to cope with the death of loved ones... And to a certian extent the free love bit applies to Storm as well, and probably Qilue too).
Being single... well, just because WotC doesn't do anything with her doesn't mean those of us at home can't. :D
:evillaugh Yes, that is true. :P
But these days, I try to stay away from writing fanfic. My last fanfic was a couple of stories about the Steel Regent, Alusair, and her Mage Royal, Caladnei. ;) I never did finish my NWN story, not sure if you remember it Stigger... It's a wonder I can finish anything at all the way I tend to drift around things.
As to the whole subtext thing, I read a lot of it into the novel personally, they seemed to be very comfortable with each other when they were around each other, and I suspect a lot of Khelben's love for Laeral was coloring her view of Raegar... though it might have been more interesting if that had manifested in other ways really.
That does make sense about Tsarra and Raegar. It is a source of frustration sometimes, that certian authors try to do too much with their story (bite off more than they can chew) and then get their stories chopped to bits by editors wanting to keep the book within the page count (and they naturally choke).
And I was just being obnoxious with the Tressym commentary by the way... I do that if you'll recall. ;)
I haven't forgotten. ;) :P
To be honest though, his supposed wish to be an elf never made any sense to me... from what I recall of his childhood, the elves weren't exactly all that kind to him when he was growing up. Maybe he's just a better person that I am, or I missed something in the few things I've read about his youth, but helping out the elves would have been the farthest thing from my mind had I his childhood, at least what I understand of it.
Yes, that is odd. Maybe he suffered from a variation of Stockholm Syndrome? :P Still, I can understand it. I'd love to be an elf myself (or a dragon... or a magical feline person).
Re-reading this it seems semi-coherent... wonder if it will seem that way tomorrow. :D
Was pretty well coherant to me.
I'd disagree with the free love principle on some level. Sure they are into physical and emotional pleasure, no question whatsoever, but how much of an emotional attachment is reallly formed beyond a deep fondness, at best? Big difference between someone who's company you enjoy and someone you decide to spend your life with. That's the reason I really feel bad for Laeral... even if she knew about his impending death, how do you reconcille losing someone you had to be thinking (at least on an emotional level) was going to be around forever? It's gotta be devastating.
Can't quite fathom the whole Stockholm Syndrome thing applying to Khelben... maybe some pervese joy of becoming what the other little reindeer said he could never be. Just doesn't make sense to me though, I'm pretty happy being me, and don't really quite understand wanting to be something else. Unless Mystra popped in one day and offered me a bit of magical training on the side, I could probably really get into that... but I'd still want to be me when it came down to it. Though I doubt the multiverse would react well to me being around that long. :D
And which NWN story would that be, I can recall quite a few you had written... ;)
People move on. Laeral has a long lonely time ahead of her, raising twins on her own... Though I suppose she'll have her family, but it's unrealistic to expect she'll remain unpaired forever (and I'm sure Khelben doesn't expect her to, and probably hopes she doesn't) - and certianly unrealistic to expect her bed will stay empty for too long, even if she never "marries" or forms a long term partnership (she was never actually married to Khelben, as far as I know)....
I guess I'm just a bit of a romantic. I think after being with someone which you have shared so much with, being Chosen, the trials, Laeral isn't likely to fall for anyone not of a similar caliber in terms of experience, responsibility, and the burden of power... And those are few and far between.
But, again, I speak from personal experience. It took me about 4 years to get over my first relationship, and 2 to get over the second major one, and I still have yet to find someone who shines quite like my last ex (who I'm still on good terms with). So maybe I'm projecting a little.. ;)
I guess I'm just a bit of a romantic. I think after being with someone which you have shared so much with, being Chosen, the trials, Laeral isn't likely to fall for anyone not of a similar caliber in terms of experience, responsibility, and the burden of power... And those are few and far between.
Now see, I don't find that idea to be particularly romantic at all, and infact, I find it to be rather horrifying... Especially given how the Afterlife of the Realms works (most people forget everything, so there's no "we'll meet again in Brightwater, my love!" because once there, you wouldn't recognize your loved one from a bar of soap). Now of course this probably doesn't apply to a Chosen, since the gods can choose to let certian people remember their lives or even just aspects of their lives.
As for who she'd fall for. Well you're right, there is a limited pool of people in the same kind of position with regard to power, experience, and responsibility. The vast majority are her sisters. Three are not related to her. If Mystra decided to Choose someone to replace Khelben, they wouldn't be as old, so they'd lack the experience... But I don't think that would really harm their chances. Also, why would she have to have a mate who is her equal that way? Maxer and Florin aren't Storm's and Dove's equal that way, though Maxer has some wierd experiences that might mitigate some of it - though I honestly treat Stormlight as if it were non-canon, since Maxer really hasn't been mentioned anywhere else, and the idea of him being creepy stalker invisible around Storm's farm doesn't do him any favours in my mind. Florin, on the other hand, was hand selected by Meilikki for something, but isn't her Chosen, and obviously Mystra also aproves, since Dove has had one child from the union (that I know of).
So whoever Laeral falls for (if she does) doesn't need to be another Chosen of Mystra. All it requires is the romantic spark to be there, and Mystra's approval. ;)
But, again, I speak from personal experience. It took me about 4 years to get over my first relationship, and 2 to get over the second major one, and I still have yet to find someone who shines quite like my last ex (who I'm still on good terms with). So maybe I'm projecting a little.. ;)
Maybe. But that experience would surely show you that romantic relationships are delicate and a large number of factors can make or break them. Death is a big breaker, as far as I'm concerned. The person who is dead doesn't need to worry about anything any more, but the person who is alive needs to live. Keeping oneself shut away from emotions is not living, in my opinion. I know about taking a long time to get over relationships - in some ways I am still scarred by all of the relationships I've had that have ended (mostly badly, and damn it I wish I had come to terms with my sexuality years earlier, because I might have saved myself some heartache, and not be in the position I am in now).
I would far rather see Laeral move on than wallow in grief for the rest of her potentially infinite life.
Now see, I don't find that idea to be particularly romantic at all, and infact, I find it to be rather horrifying...
It depends on how you define romantic. Romantic, to me, means being completely and utterly in love with someone - experiencing a pure, idealistic love, one that remains after a loved one's death for a long time. That's the Lawful part of me, I suppose.
Especially given how the Afterlife of the Realms works (most people forget everything, so there's no "we'll meet again in Brightwater, my love!" because once there, you wouldn't recognize your loved one from a bar of soap).
But when you merge with your deity, most likely you'd be part of the communal whole again; so you'd be experiencing perfect bliss, which may or may not include the feelings of love and affection you experienced in life.
If Mystra decided to Choose someone to replace Khelben, they wouldn't be as old, so they'd lack the experience... But I don't think that would really harm their chances. Also, why would she have to have a mate who is her equal that way? Maxer and Florin aren't Storm's and Dove's equal that way, though Maxer has some wierd experiences that might mitigate some of it - though I honestly treat Stormlight as if it were non-canon, since Maxer really hasn't been mentioned anywhere else, and the idea of him being creepy stalker invisible around Storm's farm doesn't do him any favours in my mind. Florin, on the other hand, was hand selected by Meilikki for something, but isn't her Chosen, and obviously Mystra also aproves, since Dove has had one child from the union (that I know of).
So whoever Laeral falls for (if she does) doesn't need to be another Chosen of Mystra. All it requires is the romantic spark to be there, and Mystra's approval.
To initiate a relationship, sure. But, as you said, one needs more in common to have a long-lasting relationship.
Maybe. But that experience would surely show you that romantic relationships are delicate and a large number of factors can make or break them. Death is a big breaker, as far as I'm concerned.
True that. ;)
Keeping oneself shut away from emotions is not living, in my opinion.
It's not. What's that have to do with the topic at hand, though, exactly? I'm talking about emotions ENDURING, not turning them off altogether.
I would far rather see Laeral move on than wallow in grief for the rest of her potentially infinite life.
Eventually. It's really hard to really analyze how the mind of the Chosen work... No one in real life has come anywhere close to experiencing the same age as they do. In any event, I couldn't see Laeral moving on right away, any time soon (especially with how slowly the Realms progresses in game - not saying that's a bad thing). I'd say to give her a few years, at the very least, especially since she's carrying his child.
I'm aware of the 'mortal' status of fellows like Maxer and Florin... but how long can that really last? Sure you love them, but you also know that they aren't going to be around all that long when it comes down to it. What's 60 years really to one of the Chosen, if that long? Considerable from our perspective I suppose, but still less than 1/10th of their lives thus far, if you see my point there.
It obviously can't last. But I kind of seem to have lost the point I was making... Ah... hmm... Yes, well I can't refute that Khelben and Laeral in all likelihood had enough in common to get past their alignment differences - I suppose I was placing too much import on those two little letters. ;)
I'd disagree with the free love principle on some level. Sure they are into physical and emotional pleasure, no question whatsoever, but how much of an emotional attachment is reallly formed beyond a deep fondness, at best? Big difference between someone who's company you enjoy and someone you decide to spend your life with. That's the reason I really feel bad for Laeral... even if she knew about his impending death, how do you reconcille losing someone you had to be thinking (at least on an emotional level) was going to be around forever? It's gotta be devastating.
As devastating as the young spouse who looses his/her partner early to Cancer. But I think my point with Alustriel (and to a lesser extent with Storm and Qilue), is that they loose people they care about all the time... and they cope. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Laeral will too.
Can't quite fathom the whole Stockholm Syndrome thing applying to Khelben... maybe some pervese joy of becoming what the other little reindeer said he could never be. Just doesn't make sense to me though, I'm pretty happy being me, and don't really quite understand wanting to be something else. Unless Mystra popped in one day and offered me a bit of magical training on the side, I could probably really get into that... but I'd still want to be me when it came down to it. Though I doubt the multiverse would react well to me being around that long. :D
I don't know too much of Khelben's early life, so I'm not really in a position to comment extensively. :P However, I am an expert on myself - and learning magic would be good too, even if I couldn't change my race (magic can achieve a lot of the things I admire in the races I'd want to be). :D
And which NWN story would that be, I can recall quite a few you had written... ;)
The one told from Aribeth's point of view about the ranger Mara Aseph.
That was my main fanfic for NWN. I think it's still floating around somewhere on the 'net.Wow... 4 years... eek. I was in a three year relationship, ended it, met my future spouse and was married a few short months later, so 15-16 years ago. Never needed much time to get over anything though... its either right or it isn't, and I'm gone if it isn't. Could be why there are people out there who find me incredibly callous emotionally... having said that, given the time they were together, I'd be floored if there wasn't a long mourning period out of Laeral.
People just react differently. I still carry scars from pretty much all my past romantic entanglements... But that doesn't mean I don't get on with my life. ;)
As far as mourning goes, yes I would expect a long period of mourning... but remember, Khelben had a magical item put aside just for that purpose (a Nykkaran Mourninglobe). I believe he intended the second one mentioned in the novel for Laeral, and thus she will probably not mourn as long as would seem appropriate. (The idea of the mourninglobe is so that a person can get over their grief faster, and as a side effect leaves a record of the person from the point of view of the mourner - so for Laeral this is a two fold effect, lets her mourn faster, and leaves her children with some idea who their father was when they're old enough to use the item.)
Wow... 4 years... eek. I was in a three year relationship, ended it, met my future spouse and was married a few short months later, some 15-16 years ago. Never needed much time to get over anything though... its either right or it isn't, and I'm gone if it isn't. Could be why there are people out there who find me incredibly callous emotionally... having said that, given the time they were together, I'd be floored if there wasn't a long mourning period out of Laeral.
Granted, my first relationship was when I was 14-15, and my self-esteem problem was even more massive then, than it is now. But the second one (two years to get over it - mostly..) is far more realistic. Two years in the relationship, and about two years (maybe a year and a half.. hard to tell) to get over it.. Something like that, yeah.
It may be different because I'm homosexual, too. Just FINDING suitable partners is much more difficult, much less trying to be picky about them! So it's REALLY a big thing when you lose one that you still actually loved. It's like losing a very-hard-to-get novel that isn't in print any more, and can only be found in a few obscure stores. Of course, that also might make my situation MORE applicable to the Laerel/Khelben experience, since Laeral could possibly experience similar difficulties as a powerful archmage of supernatural age, experience, and patience.
As far as mourning goes, yes I would expect a long period of mourning... but remember, Khelben had a magical item put aside just for that purpose (a Nykkaran Mourninglobe). I believe he intended the second one mentioned in the novel for Laeral, and thus she will probably not mourn as long as would seem appropriate. (The idea of the mourninglobe is so that a person can get over their grief faster, and as a side effect leaves a record of the person from the point of view of the mourner - so for Laeral this is a two fold effect, lets her mourn faster, and leaves her children with some idea who their father was when they're old enough to use the item.)
Holy crap. That's so... Khelben.
It depends on how you define romantic. Romantic, to me, means being completely and utterly in love with someone - experiencing a pure, idealistic love, one that remains after a loved one's death for a long time. That's the Lawful part of me, I suppose.
I won't disagree on the idea that a person can continue to love a person who has died... but that love doesn't immediately exclude loving someone else. Love is far bigger and more powerful than that, IMHO.
But when you merge with your deity, most likely you'd be part of the communal whole again; so you'd be experiencing perfect bliss, which may or may not include the feelings of love and affection you experienced in life.
True. But it's hardly romantic, is it?
To initiate a relationship, sure. But, as you said, one needs more in common to have a long-lasting relationship.
Yes, that is true. What I'm saying is that it isn't impossible for Laeral to find someone else.
It's not. What's that have to do with the topic at hand, though, exactly? I'm talking about emotions ENDURING, not turning them off altogether.
See my first comment in this post.
Eventually. It's really hard to really analyze how the mind of the Chosen work... No one in real life has come anywhere close to experiencing the same age as they do. In any event, I couldn't see Laeral moving on right away, any time soon (especially with how slowly the Realms progresses in game - not saying that's a bad thing). I'd say to give her a few years, at the very least, especially since she's carrying his child.
There's that Nykkaran Mourninglobe that I believe Khelben intended for her. It would help her mourn faster, and work her grief out all the quicker.
Still, I get the bad feeling we'll never see it happen.
Okay, I do agree: it's certainly not impossible for her to love again! I'd want her to, eventually... Just not sure if I want to see it. The wound still still be a little too sore in MY eyes, as a reader, I think. So, let's say she mourned for.. 10 years (long, but possibly appropriate given she's a Chosen and how long they were together). Let's say that the Globe reduced that by 5. That would still be two years in the Realms before she'd be "over" him... And who knows if we'd see that transpire in novels, and if we did, when?
Also... How come we're being so much more civil to each other than the last time we talked on these boards?
Zandy.. ;)
Okay, I do agree: it's certainly not impossible for her to love again! I'd want her to, eventually... Just not sure if I want to see it. The wound still still be a little too sore in MY eyes, as a reader, I think. So, let's say she mourned for.. 10 years (long, but possibly appropriate given she's a Chosen and how long they were together). Let's say that the Globe reduced that by 5. That would still be two years in the Realms before she'd be "over" him... And who knows if we'd see that transpire in novels, and if we did, when?
Two years? Are you talking real life time or game time? 'cause if you're saying game time, wouldn't that be like 5 years? (10-5=5?)
Also... How come we're being so much more civil to each other than the last time we talked on these boards?
I've spent about ten minutes trying to think of the best way to answer that... In the end, I guess the only thing I can say is "I don't remember what happened exactly last time, except that I was ashamed of myself afterwards, and spent a long time kicking myself."
Two years? Are you talking real life time or game time? 'cause if you're saying game time, wouldn't that be like 5 years? (10-5=5?)
Er, I meant 'by five times,' game time. Sorry!
I've spent about ten minutes trying to think of the best way to answer that... In the end, I guess the only thing I can say is "I don't remember what happened exactly last time, except that I was ashamed of myself afterwards, and spent a long time kicking myself."
Well, I'm glad we're off to a better restart now!
It's always good to have another intelligent gay poster around to talk to, on threads or otherwise.Er, I meant 'by five times,' game time. Sorry!
That makes more sense.
I can't remember exactly what the ratio of game time to real time is, but lemme think... it was 1372 DR in FRCS... and 1374 DR in Blackstaff, which is also the current game year according to Cormyr: The tearing of the Weave - the former was published in 2001 and the latter (Blackstaff) in 2006 (The Cormyr module is 2007)... So... looks like half a Realms year per Earth year. If the ratio is indeed 1:2, then 2 years Realms would be 4 Earth years before we could realistically see anything sort of resolution for Laeral, given a 2 year mourning period.
Well, I'm glad we're off to a better restart now!
Indeed!
That makes more sense.
I can't remember exactly what the ratio of game time to real time is, but lemme think... it was 1372 DR in FRCS... and 1374 DR in Blackstaff, which is also the current game year according to Cormyr: The tearing of the Weave - the former was published in 2001 and the latter (Blackstaff) in 2006 (The Cormyr module is 2007)... So... looks like half a Realms year per Earth year. If the ratio is indeed 1:2, then 2 years Realms would be 4 Earth years before we could realistically see anything sort of resolution for Laeral, given a 2 year mourning period.
And the question is... Is there any sourcebook or novel in the next 4 years which could possibly touch on Laeral's personal life in any believable way? Most likely not, I think. I'd want to see Mikayla's novel about the handsome Sun Elven hero saving his adventurous-but-unlucky lover from the evil clutches of the bisexual (or was it lesbian?) Drow priestess of Lolth, myself. ;)
And the question is... Is there any sourcebook or novel in the next 4 years which could possibly touch on Laeral's personal life in any believable way? Most likely not, I think. I'd want to see Mikayla's novel about the handsome Sun Elven hero saving his adventurous-but-unlucky lover from the evil clutches of the bisexual (or was it lesbian?) Drow priestess of Lolth, myself. ;)
Well I don't even know what the future for Dungeons and Dragons is in 4 years, let alone the Realms. It's possible we might see 4th Edition by then... So maybe FRCS 4th Ed? :P
As for Mikayla's novel idea, I think it was bisexual priestess. My fingers keep wanting to type a tirade about stereotyping of queer females, but my brain is trying to tell me that it's all in fun and really doesn't mean anything.
:D So... Maybe I'll write a novel where Myrmeen's bisexuality is proven in a positive manner, without resorting to any stereotypes of any sexuality at all... Where she does end up with a woman... so there! ;) (It has about as much of a chance as being published as Mikayla's idea.)Well I don't even know what the future for Dungeons and Dragons is in 4 years, let alone the Realms. It's possible we might see 4th Edition by then... So maybe FRCS 4th Ed?
Well, we DO know there's a lot of super adventures in the future for the Realms...
As for Mikayla's novel idea, I think it was bisexual priestess. My fingers keep wanting to type a tirade about stereotyping of queer females, but my brain is trying to tell me that it's all in fun and really doesn't mean anything.
What stereotyping are you talking about? I think Mikayla is bisexual or lesbian herself...
So... Maybe I'll write a novel where Myrmeen's bisexuality is proven in a positive manner, without resorting to any stereotypes of any sexuality at all... Where she does end up with a woman... so there! (It has about as much of a chance as being published as Mikayla's idea.)
Moreso, because there's no male homosexuality referenced.
Well, we DO know there's a lot of super adventures in the future for the Realms...
Yesss... and I'm intending to buy them, and not read them with the hope of roping someone into running them for me. *sigh*
What stereotyping are you talking about? I think Mikayla is bisexual or lesbian herself...
I know that.
However, we are perfectly capable of stereotyping ourselves. The particular stereotype I'm talking about is the psychotic bisexual, which is quite a mainstay staple of film, television, and literature... And it's not just the straight writers/directors/producers who are guilty of including it. Moreso, because there's no male homosexuality referenced.
Do you really think so? From my point of view, gays are more commonly represented in popular media than lesbians. But the different is probably only marginal, all things concidered.
I have finished a novel that's ready to be seen by publishers, it has four lesbian characters pretty much front and center, as well as one bisexual female. It will be interesting to see what happens.
I'll let you know if I get anything other than rejections. ;) (Got one rejection from an agent already.)Yesss... and I'm intending to buy them, and not read them with the hope of roping someone into running them for me. *sigh*
Good luck. I think?
I know that. However, we are perfectly capable of stereotyping ourselves. The particular stereotype I'm talking about is the psychotic bisexual, which is quite a mainstay staple of film, television, and literature... And it's not just the straight writers/directors/producers who are guilty of including it.
I don't think you're capable of stereotyping yourself, because it's YOURSELF that you're talking about. Stereotyping implies extending an opinion to an entire group of people. Remember, we all have a right to be who we are; isn't that what's most important? If someone chooses to be a house wife, we shouldn't look down on her for it, for example. And I openly admit to being a completely vain gay male... No one trying to say that I'm propagating stereotypes is going to stop me from being that, because that's who -I- want to be!
That being said, I've never seen popular media portray bisexuals as psychotic, but I'm not a big fan of most television.
And also remember Mikayla was talking about a priestess of Lolth, who is almost by definition at least somewhat psychotic. ;)
Do you really think so? From my point of view, gays are more commonly represented in popular media than lesbians. But the different is probably only marginal, all things concidered.
I super think so. The only fantasy novels in which I have read of homosexuality portrayed in a non-negative manner is the Kushiel Legacy series (one of my favorites) and the works of Anne Bishop.
I have finished a novel that's ready to be seen by publishers, it has four lesbian characters pretty much front and center, as well as one bisexual female. It will be interesting to see what happens. I'll let you know if I get anything other than rejections.
Well, you most likely will get rejections, merely for the fact that you're disproportionately representing the logistics of sexualities... I mean, 4 homosexuals in a novel is a lot, for main characters, unless you have ~36 more females who are NOT homosexual. (And I think the 10% rule is almost certainly exaggerated.... Just on my campus alone [approximately 1,400 students]) there's maybe half a dozen openly gay males, at best... And several dozen gay and bisexual females, I might add. And it's a very tolerant liberal arts school.
I don't think you're capable of stereotyping yourself, because it's YOURSELF that you're talking about. Stereotyping implies extending an opinion to an entire group of people. Remember, we all have a right to be who we are; isn't that what's most important? If someone chooses to be a house wife, we shouldn't look down on her for it, for example. And I openly admit to being a completely vain gay male... No one trying to say that I'm propagating stereotypes is going to stop me from being that, because that's who -I- want to be!
I think you might have missed my point there. Either that or we're not quite defining stereotype in the same way.
What I'm trying to say is that it is possible for a queer person to write a queer character who conforms to certian stereotypes.
And also remember Mikayla was talking about a priestess of Lolth, who is almost by definition at least somewhat psychotic. ;)
True. But why does she need to be bisexual?
I super think so. The only fantasy novels in which I have read of homosexuality portrayed in a non-negative manner is the Kushiel Legacy series (one of my favorites) and the works of Anne Bishop.
Mercedes Lackey? The Last Herald Mage series has a gay male protagonist. Also, I don't know how big or well known she is over there, but Trudi Canavan (she lives not far from me, aparently) has a gay male character in her Black Magician series.
There's four...
Lemme see... who can I mention who has gay females in her writing? Well the only one I can think of is Mercedes Lackey again, and her three are minor characters. It could be that I'm forgetting authors, but can you name me more than four authors who write lesbian characters? (If you can, please do! I've been searching for them for ages and I'd hate to think I missed someone. :D)
This is somewhat difficult to talk about because there really is such a lack of positive representation of homosexuals of all stripes in literature.
(The Kushiel's Legacy series seems interesting, I might have to see if I can get my hands on them at some point.)
Well, you most likely will get rejections, merely for the fact that you're disproportionately representing the logistics of sexualities... I mean, 4 homosexuals in a novel is a lot, for main characters, unless you have ~36 more females who are NOT homosexual. (And I think the 10% rule is almost certainly exaggerated.... Just on my campus alone [approximately 1,400 students]) there's maybe half a dozen openly gay males, at best... And several dozen gay and bisexual females, I might add. And it's a very tolerant liberal arts school.
Well of course it's disproportionate! If you have five characters in a book, and one is queer - that's disproportionate. If you have three couples in a book and one is a gay couple, that's disproportionate. You can't write about the lives and loves of gay people without being disporportionate - unless you're going to have a ton of characters, or your gay character is going to be lonely.
Most of the figures regarding the number of homosexuals in the world ignore bisexuals/bicurious for a start, and also fails to take into account the fact that there is a significant amount of stigma attached to being homosexual, which means there are quite a few people who are homosexual who don't make an impact on the figures because they're closeted (and you can't tell by looking at someone if they're gay or not, which makes this even more difficult). I think you'd find the actual percentage of people who don't conform to strict heterosexuality is quite a bit bigger than people think.
At any rate, when you're not writing about Earth, those figures don't apply. ;)
And a word of advice Dan... come to the San Francisco Bay Area, kinda hard to avoid homosexual anything around here. Parts of SoCal have considerably higher homosexual population densities than up here as well... though I thought you were in New York for some reason... should be tripping over other fellows if you are. Is kinda weird though, at times it seems homosexuality is considerably less of a taboo in some respects, at least compared to my youth, and yet with the conservative/evangelical hysteria going on, its getting more and more polarized than it used to be. Feh, not being all that clear right now, so I'm gonna go drink some tea and scribble a bit.
I have difficulty understanding at times the attachment to sexuality most americans have. I may be straight, but I grew up in NY and went to school in the Village, lived overseas for many years. Half of my good post High School friends are gay (though that might be just because my wife is so cool) and well I don't know where I am going with this, but consider me a sympathetic ear if you need it, because there are way too many ignorant bastards in the world with way too many hang ups when it comes to this.
Anyway since this has been completely off topic I apologize.
:DIMVO (In My Valued Opinion), these realms changing events happen with reoccurring frequency, gods walking faerun, archwizards return, demon elves in the high forest, phaerimm bust out. So it's understandable why Mystra keeps her little pets active, makes the P.C's (the underdogs) feel really small in comparison.
'Back away from this one, it's a Realms shaking event that's off the Richter scale, which means it's a job for the professionals. You go lay some smack down on evil shopkeepers or something'.
Of the realm-shaking events you listed above, nearly the entirety of their plots took place in novels. Novels by definition will logically involve characters other than those created by your players, specifically since the authors do not have free access to your personal repository of player characters, and because NPCs are the only consistent characters they can draw upon and expect people to recognize.
The Return of the Archwizards and the Time of Troubles involved the Chosen of Mystra because they involved the overwhelming majority of Faerûn as a whole. The term “Realms-shaking event” implies that it affects much if not all of the entire realms, and therefore the vast swaths of NPCs, regions, and powers are drawn into the fray, and logic will insist that they react, and that reaction be accounted for. The presence of so many powerful characters in a realms-shaking event does not represent daily life in Faerûn, nor does it represent the scope of a typical adventure or campaign. The reason why the Chosen of Mystra are seen as some of the most predominate players in the Time of Troubles and the Return of the Archwizards, aside from the overall scope of those events, is largely to do with the direct threat both events posed to their patron goddess; either the preservation of Mystra's power and the Weave (Time of Troubles), or an attack on one of the remaining mythals in Faerûn, in addition to the geographic scope of the events and the full-on emergence of rival Weave for the world to see (Return of the Archwizards).
Moreover, if the Return of the Archwizards had been played out as an adventure, then in all likelihood the Archwizards would not have returned at all. When an adventure is incorporated into the realms timeline, it is overwhelmingly assumed that in the end the bad guys were defeated or held at bay, given that the majority of game sessions using those adventures are likely to end that way, given the preference of heroism over villainy and given that DMs do not like concluding an adventure with a TPK or the abject failure of the PCs. Playing it out in a novel allowed the Shades to return, to not be outright thwarted in doing so, and in turn have a powerful group in a stalemate against the forces of good conveniently in the heart of western Faerun.
By contrast role of Mystra’s Chosen in the Last Mythal saga was entirely peripheral, with the all the critical actions that ultimately saved Faerûn being performed by the Araevin Teshurr and his adventuring company (i.e. the novelistic representation of the PCs), and it incidentally operated precisely how any campaign that takes place in the region of influence of ANY powerful NPC should be handled, regardless of who the NPC is or what campaign setting you are playing in. Alustriel sent troops to bolster the elves in the High Forest and the Elven Crusade, but was otherwise unaware of the base of operations of the Daemonfey or the source of their extraplanar allies, most assuredly due to the cover provided by the mythal (Forsaken House). Storm Silverhand patrolled the Dalelands with local militia and guards, occasionally encountering a small group of the Fey’ri or their minions (Farthest Reach), but was ultimately a backdrop. Meanwhile Elminster, Dove, the Simbul, and the Knights of Myth Drannor went off to prevent a host of liches from seizing control of the Baelnorns who guard the remaining elven mythals in Faerûn, an opportunity afforded to those liches in the midst of all the chaos unfolding in the elven realms (Farthest Reach + Realms of the Elves Anothology). The crusade led by Severil and Fflar in turn also represented powerful NPCs not part of the adventuring party, whose actions in the war itself were backdrops, and whose success was pinned on the successes of Araevin and the adventuring party, who explored an alternative and risky theory on how to defeat the enemy. Meanwhile Malkizid, Sarya, the Daemonfey all shielded their true agendas from prying eyes, and ultimately were only overcome by members of a previously un-heard of band of adventurers.
Any of the pre-existing NPCs listed above could arguably have performed the actions taken by Araevin, and likely saved the day. However, fate arranges itself so that the powers-that-be are occupied by equally demanding and more immediate tasks and events, and the opportunity to pursue these potential leads/quests that *might* ultimately save the day are taken up by adventurers.
It's obviously an issue otherwise why in earlier 1st/2nd Ed published modules would it include text about some contrived excuses why Elminster isn't around.
If an adventure takes place somewhere other than a deserted island, sealed demiplane, or a thorp that has never made it onto a map, then it in turn is going to involve local NPCs, power groups, the town guard, local adventurers, and other important background characters who are equally affected by the exposition and the dénouement of the plot and events just as much as the PCs are, if not moreso.
As such, if the local population, notable NPCs, or other characters who might conceivably be aware of the situation happen to already be capable of handling it in terms of their game statistics or personal motivations, then reasons are always given to explain why the Player Characters are the only characters who can resolve the issue.
This is not a concept exclusive to the Forgotten Realms, nor even exclusive to D&D. In almost any form of fiction you will encounter a scenario where the people who normally do protect the weak are unable to do so, or are occupied, or are unaware, and as a result it falls upon the shoulders of the protagonist to do what is needed to save the day.
More precisely, the demographics of the game world, the “Concerns of the Mighty” sidebar, and the common sense guidelines in the DMG already remove the need for DM’s to create reasons why non-player hero X doesn’t swoop in and save the day.
Ah, Elminster in Hell wasn't that the horrific sight? The big A (one of the three primeval beings of the multiverse) gets pwned by some uppity young teenybopper god fresh out of divine school!!!! There's creative liberty and there's CREATIVE LIBERTY. What that was was bang out of order.
Yes I am aware of that unfortunately, still doesn't make sense though. Asmodeus IS and WILL ALWAYS be an Overgod regardless of a flavour of the month plot device.
...This is THE OVERLORD of HELL we're talking about.
Mystra's a deity of ONE crystal sphere, Asmodeus is the embodiment of the lawful evil alignment across the DnD multiverse.
As much as I would hate to rain on your tirade, it is nonetheless necessary to inform you that “the primeval embodiment of all evil across the universe” Asmodeus is fully detailed in the Book of Vile Darkness and Mystra is fully detailed in Faiths and Pantheons. Please go take a look, I will more than happy to wait.
Asmodeus could not stand up to a Demigod let alone a Greater Deity. He cannot hit Mystra’s AC of 78, nor can he bypass her SR of 70, nor can he hope to cast a spell to enhance in his attempts at either without her handily stifling it with a free-action counterspell. If the need arose Mystra could have effortlessly destroyed him in a single round, by imposing herself directly into his presence with a quickened miracle and then annihilate him with both a 336 damage divine blast on her action, followed by a celerity spell and second 336 damage divine blast during his own round if he so much as attempted a flinch in reply, all before he would be afforded the opportunity to complete his free-action flinch to begin with.
The only “creative liberty” taken with regard to Mystra’s actions in Elminster in Hell is the fact that she was driven from Avernus in the first place, and that she was driven back without getting what she came there for. Moreover, that creative liberty that portrayed Mystra as a being weaker than she in the rules can almost entirely be attributed to the fact that her full range of defined powers and statistics were not laid down into the rules at the time it was written, and the fact that for better or worse, many novel authors rarely bother overmuch with the rules to begin with.
No honestly I'm really not, trolling would imply a measure of concern over the path FR has been heading over the years.
Most fans of the Realms never have a need to compose a message board post to begin with, thus for someone whose attitude is as indifferent as you claim your offhand replies give a very different appearance.
Oh I read it, some shaky demographic analysis using the weird science of D.M.G rules to reinforce the premise the sisters in da hood can't be in all places at all times, followed by a tirade of painful fawning by other posters.
I’ve established my arguments on facts, figures, rules, and guidelines. By contrast your enhancements to the discussion up to this point seem to be limited half-hearted gripes about the quality of novels, or flame-worthy assaults on characters hoping to incite a response.
Sound enough in principle still doesn't change the fact most of the things P.C's could achieve will inevitably be overshadowed by high level N.P.C's.
As opposed to a standard D&D world, which in turn will by default include NPCs who are equal to and greater than the players in experience, and therefore “overshadow” the PCs until they outlevel them.
The minimum number of four 13th+ level nameless NPCs of every standard class that you will find in any standard metropolis are just as much of a potential spotlight thief for the party of 9th level heroes as any handful unique named epic NPCs residing in Faerûn--of which the Chosen of Mystra are a small handful, and whose presence is counteracted by an commensurate number of unique named epic NPC villains.
Great posts, but they are assuming that the dislike of the chosen can be easily articulated. The game material supports their existence. The novels support their existence. This is all true, but just because they do does not create an automatic great flavor. Like I said earlier, I depict them differently from the novels.
I am not trying to flame away, or troll, but the novels really make them one dimensional characters with incredibly bad dialog. With that as a mental image it can be at times difficult to erase the very average prose, and proceed to using them based on their descriptions. As written they come across as, well for lack of a better term cheesy, or rather, as cliche as can be. Mostly I am making reference to the Simbul, who in every novel I have read comes across as a woman having multiple "monthly visitors" at once, from a purely juvenile male perspective. Alustriel could not be more perfect, and this makes her in my mind a cardboard cut out. Sylune well she seems like she was one of the interesting ones, unfortunately she offed herself to take out a dragon. Laeral was insane for the longest time, and then became Khelben's appendage. Dove dropped off the face of published material (too bad she had potential because she had real weaknesses). Storm, well my favorite has the most varied approach, is unpredicable, genuinely cares, and comes across as someone you might actually want to meet in real life. Qilue well, lets not go there. That's it for the seven sisters, and they all ,even the good ones still come across as a man writing a woman, and not very well. I am sure the avalanche of fanboys is about to fall upon me.
Khelben an enigma in what I have read (mystery what a novel idea). Elminster clearly a deus ex machina, Gandalf wannabe. This as written in the novels. As described in the gaming material they all had great potential, but add in the ever present existence of dialog worthy of the Star Wars Prequels, and well I have often wished I could erase it from my memory. Of course I have been trying to erase the Highlander sequels from my brain for a good 15 years or so with minimal success.
I understand the purpose of the characters, what archetypes they represent, and their general utility for the realms. I leave it at that. I have to ignore the way they are presented in the novels because if I used them as a guideline, and roleplayed them as depicted my players would honestly die laughing.
I personally don’t use the novels as a basis for characterization either, be it for a lack of agreement on the action of a character, or when as a shared world setting the flavor of a character differs greatly depending on which author is at the helm.
Nonetheless, if we had novels that went into in-depth characterizations of the Seven Sisters, on par with say Blackstaff, then in turn we would have an equally greater number of droning complaints as to why such characters are being focused upon, and in turn gripes from DMs who may apparently think that because Elminster is “omnipresent” in almost every scene in novel bearing the name “Elminster” in the title, then such a novel in turn must mean he is “omnipresent” in the affairs of everyone else in the universe as well
I actually have a great deal of discomfort for contrived trilogies, the seemingly endless drama regarding Lolth, or the fact that so many adventure hooks left in game accessories are used as fodder for novel plots, when they often could be developed into adventures, official or otherwise. I also cringe a great deal at many of the occurrences I read about, the way a character is portrayed, and so on.
However on the other hand, any problems I may have with a particular author or novel in this genre are easily counterbalanced by the principle of you get what you pay for. Science Fiction/Fantasy in general, in and of itself, is already rife with clichés, flat characters, or any of a dozen other failings that get slapped onto a dozen or so Forgotten Realms novels as if we aught not expect them. In light of the existing deficiencies of the genre as a whole, I often wonder as to what people are expecting when they have an air of inexplicable shock at FR novels lacking of equivalent quality with Tolkien, Dickens, Shakespeare, or Homer, when the sole noble purpose of said novels is to promote a campaign setting for Dungeons and Dragons. If a rational person wouldn’t put their Player’s Guide to Faerûn into a time capsule then I can scarcely imagine why a novel promoting its use or sales should be expected to hold to the same standard. If people are expecting consistently erudite literature, then the fantasy/sci-fi section of Barnes and Noble as a whole isn’t the most apposite place to look, because the overwhelming majority of it will not irk much higher or receive more notoriety than the aforementioned dialog of the Star Wars prequels. If I find a gem of a novel in the Forgotten Realms series then I treasure it, but by and large I know what I am in for and what I aught to be expecting when I buy a novel based on D&D.
But the fact of the matter is the criticisms of novels, regardless of whether they are justifiable, have no bearing on the core issues of the Chosen in a campaign. Disdain for a character in a novel does not intrinsically mean that said character will by default automatically ruin your campaign or even have to be more than a background piece in it. The demographics ensure that unplanned or unprovoked encounters with a given individual will not occur unless the DM places them, and the Concerns of the Mighty and Make the PC’s the Stars guidelines ensure that glory stealing cameos or outright intervention by Drizzt, or Elminster, or etc will not be an issue.
It reeks of trolls in here. Reeks. Some repeat offenders, too. Haven't you people learned?
In the five years I've been posting here, I've noticed that The Simbul tends to close the book on most arguments, especially concerning Ed Greenwood's characters. I have not seen one rebuttal on this thread that even comes close to shattering the iron-clad posts The Simbul has provided. Whether it's the events of El in Hell, the behavior of the Chosen, the availabilty of Elminster to right wrongs and such, The Simbul has provided information that is worth paying attention to rather than stubbornly resist. People, do yourselves a favor and USE her knowledge to better your games and your understanding of FR.
But I must say, I sooooo enjoy seeing people desperately cling to ignorance. It makes my tummy warm. :P
I suppose if nothing else, an optimistic point of view would be that it gives some entertainment to return to these threads on a rainy day..
Here's what it boils down to of that 33,999998 in actuality (and note: IMVO) lenient conservatism grounded in verisimilitude would suggest only 1%-3% capable of presenting (or caring to present for that matter) a significant threat for the P.C's / Forces of Good / James Bond aficionados to hero pie on. Which tops gives us a figure exceeding one million. The other 97%? Random encounters with monsters / primitive but organized savage tribes (Orcs, etc) harbouring no ultimate consequence to the safety of the Realms OR civilized inhabitants with selfish desires looking out for their own interests and getting by day to day with no interest in aggravating 'itchy palmed adventurers'. Any red flags being raised yet? It stands to reason with concentrated effort the Chosen of Mystra are entirely competent in toppling all organized threats originating on Faerun in terms of years!!!
By trying to lose yourself in the demographics you in turn lose the point entirely. Even if one accepts the premise of your counterpoint (which I don’t), that only 1,000,000 is the magic number of Faerûnian threats originating from humanoids, it would still take 9 Chosen of Mystra 304 years to eradicate all of them if they each operate on unmasking, preparing for, eliminating, and recovering from 1 specific threat per day....in which time the entire population of humanoid villains will have replaced itself, as more evil beings and born, and in turn adventure out into the world, and in turn come to dominate a corner of it.
If we're unlucky someone picky about it could point out something along the lines of "because a large part of the argument (demographics, etc) aren't Realms specific, they aren't valid within the Realms".
That'd be typical of our luck. There's plenty of people on these boards that do that....
Edit: I prolly shouldn't have mentioned that....
In which case they would still be wrong :D As per the FRCS, most (un-detailed) communities in Faerun will follow the demographics guidelines in the DMG. The exceptions where Faerûnian demographics differ from the DMG guidelines are
*Wizards and sorcerers are more common (thus you use a 1d8 and 1d6 + community modifier to find the highest level randomly generated [i.e. un-named] member(s) of those classes in a community)
*Information that exists in city info-blocks or descriptive paragraphs will supercede the typical results you would get for rolling up the class/levels of community inhabitants in the DMG tables. More often than not, this results in more adventurer-classed characters than less, with some of the most outstanding examples being the heavy populations of wizards in Mulmaster (the Moonsea) and Halarahh (Halruaa) as described in the FRCS, and Shade as described in Lords of Darkness. In terms of the communities that do have their populations partially or fully spelled out for you, those cities also tend to give you a more fluid range of levels in a class in a community, rather than the DMG giving you four 13th level fighters, eight 6th level fighters, sixteen 3rd level fighters, thirty-two 1st level fighters, and apparently none of any levels in between.
*As a campaign setting that uses the Epic Rules, the demographics of Faerûn would likely also follow the (higher) community modifiers for the highest level (un-named) NPCs of a given class in a community if the Epic Level Handbook is used.
All of the above result in more potential threats to Faerûn, not less.
Thats only because The Simbul says what people want to hear and so every reasonable rebuttal gets ignored.
I actually did address your rebuttal several pages ago, specifically the issue that NPCs who are higher level than the PCs, and therefore can usurp the player’s role in the campaign from them, are not a trait exclusive to the FR, but are an assumed for any world built using the guidelines in the DMG. It is assumed that that the NPCs living in the world do not sit around in stasis waiting for the BBEG to rear his head so they can all simultaneously attack him, but rather that they—just like the PCs’—have a great deal of other things that occupy their time as well, including dealing with their own foils, foes, and rivals, and that not every call for heroes can be answered by them.
It is incumbent on the DM to create conditions in the adventure where the PCs are the only characters free, willing, able, or aware of the specific problem and therefore are the only ones who can solve it.
Took out the insults.
What he is saying is that some people do not believe that the rules in the DMG are Realms specific and should not apply to the Realms.
AFAIK WotC hasn't said that the Realms has a distinct demographics, thus we only have the DMG to go by for a population breakdown.
Simbul is stating a case, using the rules that are sactioned by the maker of the game we play. Thus, it is an iron clad argument until WotC tells us different.
Everything else is just opinion.
As to the whole demographics issue, Shadez is right, they're the only basis we have to go on, and despite not being 'Realms specific', they are the best template we have on the matter at the moment, and by the rules, the most correct. If you don't like them, use a different template for your games, but as far as official stats go, it's the most correct system to use for calculations.
See the reply to Karsus the Mad above.
I scan the boards every now and again for interesting things to read. This topic is particularly important to many Realms fans such as myself. Since I saw the Simbul started the thread, I had to investigate. I've read almost every single post, as to make a legit response.
First of all, I say thank you to the Simbul. I've never seen you make a post that was not well thought out and informative. This is not to say I've never disagreed with you, but it hasn't happened often.
I've been playing the Realms since around '98, or a little before if you count reading books and playing the old computer games. I've been a big Realms fan the whole way through, and Ill never forget when I picked up one of the first copies of that beautiful white FRCS rulebook for third edition. I will state here that 90% of the time I'm the DM around here, unfortunatley (I want to play!).
Somewhere along the road however, I lost my way. Somewhere in the endless novels and supplements, something snapped, and I began to resent the Realms. I started toying with other settings, but nothing ever satisfied me like the Realms once did. There was even a time I began to resent the Chosen, though I never said it openly. What got to me was pretty much a couple of bad players and the endless flamers on these boards. Hitler once said "tell a lie long enough and loud enough, and people will believe it", many flamers and trolls prove this true. As for the bad players, I had one guy utterly obsessed with how "cool" the Chosen were and did everything his little mind could think of to impress them and meet them, forcing alot of Chosen encounters I otherwise would have avoided. The other guy was completley obsessed with killing the Chosen, just because he was a dick.
I see now that its all due to a few coincidental things happening to this setting combined with a form of ignorance. Forgotten Realms is old. Its been around a long time now. Its stories are many, its heroes many. Thus, you've got alot of lore about the Chosen. In 20 years time, I'm sure Eberron will be no different. Another thing that I believe intimidates some folks is that its not one super-character, but a team of them. In truth, the Chosen rarely act well as a team, Khelben and El rarely get along from what I've seen. And there isn't any reason if some of them decide to gang up on the Zhents, for example, that the bad guys would not form a "dream team" of their own (see "Concerns of the Mighty" in the FRCS). Its sort of a Fantasy version of Mutually Assured Descrution. Sure you can kill me, but you will die doing so.
There are probably other reasons, but my allergies are making my head hurt. The fact is that a few misconceptions plus some bad DMs with a dash of some recently controversial novels has convinced some people, mostly newcomers to the Realms, that the Realms is somehow tainted by the actions of a few old adventurers.
The Simbul has helped me get past this distorted view and I thank her. The fact is, if you think a handful of powerful good characters makes a world unplayable, then you'd have to change settings every time you finished a campaign.
I never hear my players say "well, my last character was a 22nd level cleric, he'd probably clean up the planet and all the world's problems by now, so there is no need to make more characters here." That's about as foolish as saying you can "win" D&D. So if your super-heroic character can't clean up Toril, what makes you think the Chosen can?
As far as the Chosen "cleaning up toril" in a matter of years, this is complete nonsense. One of the things that makes Forgotten Realms so intriguing are the spiderwebs of alligences and deals between various organizations and churches. Khelben and Manshoon have even brokered a deal between Waterdeep and the Zhentarium. *gasp* It may very well be that one evil organization might help control another's influence, and the Chosen cannot afford to topple one without empowering another. Its not as simple as "lets go kill the bad guys", there are countries in the real world learning that lesson right now.
Sure every once and awhile you get a Adolf Hitler that the world focuses all of its good against, and you have your Elminsters in that fight (General Eisenhower) but you also need the soldiers and the pilots and the engineers and the scientists and the countless other heroes to get the job done.
You can also look at this from the standpoint that while we have 5 aircraft in the air force that can wipe out entire cities with their weapons, they are not the only things in the military that we fight with, and if they were, we'd be screwed. Hence, even 5 archwizards cannot defend an entire world from evil, even if they can level cities with their power as well.
There are things that don't add up realistically when looking at the Chosen, true, but its a Fantasy setting people, things never quite add up in a fantasy setting.
Again, look at Star Wars novels, in many of them Luke Skywalker takes center stage as the "super-duper" jedi, flying starships with his mind, etc. But there are things that challenge even him, and he cannot take on the entire empire on his own, not by a long-shot.
In my own games, I put a hard limit on character levels at 20. I consider the highest of characters, even the Chosen, to be no greater than 20th level. This puts alot more "realism" in my games.
In the end, its really up to you. And what I really don't get, is why you are attacking the Chosen in the Realms like Apple Pie in America. If you had a complaint about the Chosen, it should have been voiced decades ago when they were thought up. It's a little late in the game to expect any change now. So you've got two choices, deal with the Chosen, or go play something else.
In the campaign I'm currently DMing Alustriel asked a group of elves (the players) to investigate some strange dissapearings in a woodcuting camp on the outskirts of the High Forest (it's the only one approved by the elves, and one of the players is a Wood Elf Druid from Reithelaethor). At this moment an old rival (a cousin of Kymil Nimesin) of my main npc (Alediran of House Tir'ent) during magical academy training in the Towers of Moon & Sun was discovered of having ties with the church of Shar, responsible for the dissapearances (sp?) and other things that happened during the campaign. Their objective is to discover a way to disable/destroy the Mythal (the sharrans don't know it's a Mythal, they assume it's some kind of permanent Magic Circle Against Evil) that protects Silverymoon.
A noteworthy quote, in light of the distressing fact that others here seem to insist that Alustriel is some omniscient ruler who somehow knows everything of consequence that occurs in her realm, and therefore has no need of the PCs to counter threats to it...which seems odd when in large part most of the information that influential NPCs would acquire is through agents and adventurers, whose most predominant and successful members would be the player characters.
This is a perfect example of the intent of the rulebooks for powerful, insightful, and knowledgeable NPCs to attain their critical information from adventurers, and to then dispatch those adventurers to deal with them when they can. As per the DMG, powerful NPC villains are supposed to operate first through minions until there is no other choice but to confront their enemies directly. The exact same premise should apply to NPC Heros as well and their relationship with the PCs. Elminster’s biography explicitly states that he prefers to work through younger adventurers, rather than striking at his foes directly, and the same concept is echoed in “Concerns of the Mighty” and in the lore notes of many other powerful NPCs, from all sides of the alignment spectrum.
Sadly, I guess others might condemn you for having the (gasp) audacity to assume Alustriel has more important tasks or more pressing things to attend to than scry on every agent of evil operating in the Silver Marches...or perhaps she simply sits in stasis waiting for a BBEG to walk under the “Limit: only-1-villain-at-a-time” sign that apparently hangs over the border of the Silver Marches, so she can go smite him and laugh terribly at the PCs she stole XP from.
*******
More replies to come
.....:pile:
Yeah! I'm around to watch the carnage!
Well I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed, I've really not that much to say having already made my objections known.
There's really no point in arguing the why's and wherefore's of the novel's interpretations of the Realms any further, writers depict in any way they choose, what is important is the overall impression given to the reader.
Just a couple of points though: 1) The Book of Vile Darkness and Faiths and Pantheons are both 3.0 and therefore no longer current, I think if the BoVD was updated to 3.5 we'd see a reworking of the Lords of the Nine, considering the ho-haw that was raised over FC1, explicitly stated as aspects in FC2. I'll restate: This is THE OVERLORD of HELL we're talking about. Mystra's a deity of ONE crystal sphere; Asmodeus is the embodiment of the lawful evil alignment across the DnD multiverse. It doesn't make sense, make mine Necromancer Games ToH!!!
2) High level N.P.C doesn't necessarily equate to high level interferer (at least not implicitly inherent to the material contained in the published campaign setting I choose to D.M) contrary to the overall impression conveyed through Forgotten Realms novels. You can't deny it, there's no other campaign setting that includes those 'get away with plausibility free' clauses, that each time have included what Elminster might be doing at this time, I'll say it again it's all down to overall impression of how the campaign world is represented.
Yep I think that's another half hearted attempt at rebuttal under the belt.
Just a couple of points though: 1) The Book of Vile Darkness and Faiths and Pantheons are both 3.0 and therefore no longer current, I think if the BoVD was updated to 3.5 we'd see a reworking of the Lords of the Nine, considering the ho-haw that was raised over FC1, explicitly stated as aspects in FC2. I'll restate: This is THE OVERLORD of HELL we're talking about. Mystra's a deity of ONE crystal sphere; Asmodeus is the embodiment of the lawful evil alignment across the DnD multiverse. It doesn't make sense, make mine Necromancer Games ToH!!!
It all depends on your focus, KiY.
See from my point of view, and in my very valued opinion (:rolleyes
, the difference is - Mystra is a goddess, while Asmodeus is just a powerful devil. When Asmodeus becomes a god then we'll talk about him possibly being a match for Mystra.That is what makes sense to me. A god is a god, and a devil is a devil, and a god is more powerful than a devil.
This is one of the reasons why I am not a big fan of the Great Wheel. It makes Alignment far too prominent and important, while almost completely devaluing the gods as a whole.
2) High level N.P.C doesn't necessarily equate to high level interferer (at least not implicitly inherent to the material contained in the published campaign setting I choose to D.M) contrary to the overall impression conveyed through Forgotten Realms novels. You can't deny it, there's no other campaign setting that includes those 'get away with plausibility free' clauses, that each time have included what Elminster might be doing at this time, I'll say it again it's all down to overall impression of how the campaign world is represented.
The question you have to ask yourself then is: what in the world is this high level NPC doing? Yes, they have their own plans, but the thing is: when they're that powerful, their plans will, by their very nature, influence the world around them.
Lastly, it's unfair to judge the Realms solely by the novels, because novels represent extraordinary situations. Extraordinary means "beyond what is usual, ordinary, regular, or established." Also, the novels aren't all centred around the Chosen of Mystra, as you seem to want us to believe - there are plenty of Realms novels that don't involve them at all.
This is one of the reasons why I am not a big fan of the Great Wheel. It makes Alignment far too prominent and important, while almost completely devaluing the gods as a whole.
It's a cosmology that certainly supports views more like the novel American Gods or the like. Also note that Asmodeus was a Greater God (at the very least) in previous editions.
And, if you ask me, alignment (how you act) is more important than what deity you think you worship. ;)
It's a cosmology that certainly supports views more like the novel American Gods or the like. Also note that Asmodeus was a Greater God (at the very least) in previous editions.
Well he's not a Greater God now, and if he was - well, then he wouldn't necessarily be a multi-speheric one, IMHO, and may not even have a presence in the Realms (remember, Ao decides who's a god in the Realms and who isn't).
And, if you ask me, alignment (how you act) is more important than what deity you think you worship. ;)
In my opinion, if this were truely so, the Realms would have only nine gods, one for each alignment.
I don't think we're going to agree on this one.
Come on Zandilar! You're smarter than that! Think outside the box!
It truly makes me sad that so many players seem to have had experiences that made alignment become such a terrible taste in their mouths.
Thus, IMO and the way I run it, the reason Mystra was able to deal with Asmodeus so "easily" is because that was an aspect of Hell as it exists in The Great Tree, in other words, it's similar to an Aspect of Asmodeus in a Great Wheel Prime (making an Aspect of Asmodeus on FR more of an Aspect of an Aspect, if you're following, and that's where the "stats" form FC1 and FC2 are true, when it's an Aspect of an Aspect)
The reason why Mystra didn't just wup Asmodeus' sorry butt all around the Great Tree is really quite simple, the other Gods. If Mystra decided to destroy Asmodeus in Hell (the FR version) then it would have wide ranging concequences throughout the Great Tree, it would give the Demons a HUGE advantage since the Hells would be thrown into complete turmoil (to say nothing of the Yugo's, the Celestials, etc) and while Asmodeus is certainly not Mystra's friend, or any of the Gods for that matter, he's still a stabalizing force in the Great Tree. Further, it would cost Mystra both power and attention to destroy Asmodeus in FR (which, in the way I run it, wouldn't kill him, but would banish him for a long, long time) and in expending that power and attention she'd be more susceptible to another God's plots.
Now, the reason I run things like this is that I REALLY like the idea of Outsiders being able to hold their own against Gods and being able to take them down if a God invaded their plane (their physical home plane, which, in my model, resides in The Great Wheel).
Last, but not least, is the issue of FR books that are 3.0. Until such a time as we have an update then the 3.0 books are canon, they just need a little work. I don't really know why the stats blocks presented in the FRCS (or others) are considered "carved in stone" when we are discussing campaign matters (when we discuss 'is X more powerful than Y' then we need to go by presented stats blocks, otherwise it's an excersize in futility {not that it isn't completely futile in the first place ;)}). Personally, I feel free to re-write stats blocks as I need or want. Heck, as a DM I will break the rules into a dozen pieces if it will aid my story (though, as a rule, I work these things out beforehand, not during game play), I'll add spell-like abilities, feats, magical effects and the like and if my players complain about it then I'll inform them that they have the choice to play my game or not. (note: I haven't had anything but a minor complaint about "super tough kobolds" but then the players found out that the kobolds had been at war with goblins and gnolls and all that was left was the "cream of the crop" and those who managed to avoid fights)
Anyhow, I'm done babbling
Sadly, I guess others might condemn you for having the (gasp) audacity to assume Alustriel has more important tasks or more pressing things to attend to than scry on every agent of evil operating in the Silver Marches...or perhaps she simply sits in stasis waiting for a BBEG to walk under the “Limit: only-1-villain-at-a-time” sign that apparently hangs over the border of the Silver Marches, so she can go smite him and laugh terribly at the PCs she stole XP from.
Let them come, I've dealt with far worse threats :D
I'll add the latest happenings in my campaign(to make a bigger fire). The city of Silverymoon will be paying the adventurers the sum of 500 PP to each adventurer at the end of the adventure.
So far they have recived 200 PP, after they reported Alustriel that the church of Shar was involved. And a useful contact, a wizard friend of Alustriel that give discounts if the buyer is sent by Alustriel herself, he also takes lesser version (a Headband of Intellect +2) at full price if you buy a more powerfull one.
Last session my players, after surviving a trap laid by Daramil Nimesin (yes, unbelievable as it sounds, I made my own PCNPC become fooled by another NPC when Alediran was scrying him) they followed him to a cavern nearby (outside the mythal), where they fought a couple of minotaurs who killed one of my players followers (he said ooc that was a good touch taking into account his character's history), after that, they found a cavern where a huge statue of Shar (actually a partialy open gate to the Shadow Plane), where they fought with Daramil Nimesin and Ha'khalara Hiddentalon (a Half-Shadow Dragon priestes of Shar, it had to be something not human because of Nimesin's prejudice against them). My players labeled Ha'khalara a giant tower of metal and scales.
And that's just the first half of this chapter.
Heya,
Well he's not a Greater God now, and if he was - well, then he wouldn't necessarily be a multi-speheric one, IMHO, and may not even have a presence in the Realms (remember, Ao decides who's a god in the Realms and who isn't).
Well Asmodeus is more "multi-spheric" than just about any FR diety (you could argue a few, like Corellon, Lloth, Tiamat). It's just the status of his deific powers in FR that's the issue.
IMO, through the ToT, AO blocked the native deific abilities of Powerful Outsiders in the Realms. IMO AO did this to keep the Realms from sliding into any particular plane and to keep the Realms from becoming a battle ground in Outer Plannar conflicts. As I see it, the only roll I can really see for AO at this time is a "custodian of the Prime" so to speak, an agent of the continuation of the multiverse working, specifically in the Realms (and perhaps more).
Anyhow, that's how I justify the feat requirement for gaining spells from Outsiders (AO's block isn't perfect because without positive and negative energy the Realms will die) and the Cosmological changes.
So what exactly would be the point of making a disctinction between Archdevil/Archdemon and Deity unless there was some marked difference between them? And what about those Arch upper planar entities? I'm with Zandilar there, if the Archdevils and Archdemons are as powerful as some would seem to be implying, then it does utterly devalue the point of deities... though to be honest I've yet to understand the fascination and awe that these lower planar critters seem to inspire in some.
Well, in my theory, the point of Gods is to make sure the Prime doesn't get nabbed by an Outside realm. The Gods are the big fishes in the little pond with the game warden (AO) making sure the pond doesn't get poached terribly.
There IS, IMO, a very marked difference between the Powerful Outter Planar Beings and Prime Gods. That being, Gods are Gods in the Prime they are a part of, outside of that Prime they shouldn't really be deific (IMO).
Basically, it's me trying to create a functioning model of the multiverse, because I'm like that ;D
And since I like what I've been thinking of so far I'm trying to plant seeds in everyones heads so when I eventually get a written out version of my theories it'll be able to take root that much easier. :D
I know about the idea of planar races being physical manifestations of alignment-based planes, but I see deities as cosmological manifestations of the same principles, only more refined in scope and focus. Certainly those planars have a spiritual aspect, but its on a lesser scale as a deities to my way of thinking.
Well, to be honest, I hate that theory...
Well I hate you! ;)
heh, I keed, I keed :D
I have a hard time getting past the whole idea that Deities are often served by those planar races, which I find hard to swallow if the 'masters' of those races are so much more powerful than said Deities... just makes absolutely no sense to me.
The way I see it is that the "masters" of those races are much like Alustriel in the Silver Marches, they hold a lot of power, they have a lot of sway but only in-so-far as they are supported by their "subjects".
So, basically, a Pit Fiend, while beholden to Hell, is his own being. He can serve whomever he wants (so long as whom he serves will protect him from those who don't want him serving someone else, basically a lot like independent Red Wizards) and sometimes, in serving an evil deity of a prime they are also serving the interests of Hell (which is eternal and doesn't need to develope overt plots, they can spend centuries "seeding" their plots about, point in fact, I don't really jive with the idea that immortal beings plot on a daily timeframe, I really feel they should be ploting on a centuries type timeframe)
So, first and foremost, the "masters" of Hell aren't controlling all of their subjects. Second, having your agents serving others doesn't mean they aren't your agents, it just means you're playing a DEEP game, the more trust the agent gains the better off you are. Third, when on the Prime (or in Toril's case when in The Great Tree) these beings aren't nearly as powerful as they are on their home plane, they can't take out a God unless they can lure the God away from their plane/prime or unless they gain enough allies to overcome the deity overtly.
Sure you could approach it from the whole 'mutually beneficial relationship' perspective, but that undercuts the point of Deities to my mind, and cleaves to closely to the conception they have under a monothiestic mindset. Were the demons/devil/whatever that powerful and independent, it would negate the need for evil Deities from the start, at least as far as I see the matter.
This really began for me in an effort to;
1) Figure out the functioning of a cosmology so that it makes sense to me
2) Make Outsiders more than a common occurance and more than the laughing stock of the cosmos. (probably a reaction to the "Demogorgon is the suxorz!" type threads)
3) Find a reason for the Gods and find a reason why the Gods act like stupid children half the time
4) Trying to explain, in my own head, just what The Great Tree could be useful for (and insulating FR from the planes seems like a pretty good reason, since FR is already riddled with portals, has abyssal sinks, etc etc, which, in my theory, weakens the Primes "walls" and means the FR would be easier to subsume by an Outer plane)
So I guess in my world, you either need uber powerful archfiends, or evil Deities, but both just don't work in my head, since they both effectively serve the same purpose.
For a campaign yes, for a multiverse no. Evil Deities are Prime specific and their concerns are about the Prime (usually taking it over, destroying it, whatever) where the main concern of Outsiders is their eternal struggles, the Prime is just one pawn in a cosmic game of chess. I see it as just a macrocosm of the web work of powers that exists in FR, it's an extension of that theme applied to the planes where things are balanced and the contension of that balance is what dives the multiverse.
I know about the idea of planar races being physical manifestations of alignment-based planes, but I see deities as cosmological manifestations of the same principles, only more refined in scope and focus. Certainly those planars have a spiritual aspect, but its on a lesser scale as a deities to my way of thinking.
See, it's the refinement of scope and focus that makes them different. The Outsiders are primarily concerned with the multiverse, not any specific plane (including any specific primes) though they do try and keep an eye on what others are doing. If a particular "ruling" outsider takes an interest in a specific prime then others will likely find out about this interest and investigate, or, if they get along with deities from that prime then they might just inform them that they've got a visitor they might want to keep an eye on.
To use a crude analogy, Iran was long a hot bed of intrigue between the US and Russia. The Iranians controlled the country but were influenced by the US and by Russia. The Iranians drew this interest based on their location (strategic importance ftw!. . . or ftl depending on your viewpoint *g*). Without the strategic importance Iran would have been relatively free from US or Soviet influence.
Bah, I'm losing myself in that analogy but it's really the complexity of that situation that I envision for the multiverse and it's NEVER a one on one fight, there's always someone looking to see if they can sweep in and get an easy victory.
As to gods acting like children... well, I put that down to bad writing/plot devices more than the actual behaviour of deities. Or if we want to be really paranoid about it, a subtle advocacy of monotheistic belief creeping into the settings...
But I do understand what you're getting at, I even understood that it's a homebrew thing from your original post on it. I'm simply elaborating on why I don't agree with the premise of archplanars being able to truly compete with actual deities.
Afterthought, I followed the analogy there, but from my perspective, it's not terribly applicable to the situation. Great for yours, not so good for mine. ;)
I still have a lot of work to do on my theory but when I have it done (you know, in a few years ;)) I'll be postin it
Oh, glad you got the analogy, I wasn't sure where to go from there and had to run
Years? Good lords... slow little bunny you are.
Busy, I prefer busy. ;)
Busy, I prefer busy. ;)
I always preferred 'motivationally handicapped' myself...
That's always been my self-reasoning...
I think we did have a similar discussion. Namely, Planescape posits that alignments are merely common expressions of personality, and thus, there are truly an infinite number of alignments (infinite Outer Planes), but just like we mark hours and minutes on a clock despite there being infinite time, it's easier to start to comprehend things if we use delineated sections of information.
Come on Zandilar! You're smarter than that! Think outside the box!
I can think outside the box. ;) I could go into a whole theory that proves that the planes are neither wheel nor tree, and yet they are both wheel and tree... But that's not really the point here.
I'm having trouble here trying to say what I want to say, so just bear with me. (This is all my opinion, so you can also ignore me if you like.
)I understand why there are nine alignments. If we went with a infinite number of personality types, how would you police it? (Question: How many alignments could a paladin be? Answer: infinite :D). So they obviously had to put in some limitation for the game mechanics. The trouble with the representation of the planes they released (the Great Wheel) is that they based them on a game mechanic that was only in the game to simplify things.
The alignments are a limiting factor, and they applied this limiting factor to something that should be infinite. They placed outsiders front and centre and pushed deities to the background. In effect, they completely changed the emphasis. Devils, Demons, and Angels (etc) (hereafter DDAe) are not supposed to be comparable to Deities. DDAe are supposed to be servitors of the gods, not gods themselves. Yet the presentation of the planes, the Great Wheel, completely ignores that convention. Thus we have gods who are not comparable to the greatest of the DDAe, and DDAe who are paragons/manifestations of a game mechanic.
Having said that, though, there's no reason why someone couldn't use the planes the way they are (the Great Wheel) and make a really fine and fun campaign out of them. There isn't any reason why they can't add flavour to a campaign setting. But by the same token, it shouldn't be so limited that someone can't come along and change whatever the heck they like. As stated at the moment, Asmodeus is not a god, and therefore, IMVOR (In My Version Of the Realms), would have his butt handed to him by Mystra.
It truly makes me sad that so many players seem to have had experiences that made alignment become such a terrible taste in their mouths.
I haven't really had bad experiences with alignment (beyond finding them too limited at times). I just think the presence of fiendish and celestial Archlords who are as powerful as deities, devalue deities as a whole. The fact that these Archlords are supposedly archetypical manifestations of alignments doesn't really sit well with me.
IMVOR (In My Version Of the Realms), would have his butt handed to him by Mystra.
I just think the presence of fiendish and celestial Archlords who are as powerful as deities, devalue deities as a whole.
I'll have to strongly disagree with that. We're talking about a being that rules the dominant species of not just a layer or two but a whole plane of existence, there aren't any gods that can make this claim (Primus coming the closest) and there are very few other primeval over powers that hold similar status. Likely assumptions that can be made for further evidence of this look to the conflict between the god Set and the armies of Prince Levistus on Stygia. The stats attributed to Asmodeus in The Book of Vile Darkness just do not make sense to me.
I'll have to strongly disagree with that. We're talking about a being that rules the dominant species of not just a layer or two but a whole plane of existence, there aren't any gods that can make this claim (Primus coming the closest) and there are very few other primeval over powers that hold similar status. Likely assumptions that can be made for further evidence of this look to the conflict between the god Set and the armies of Prince Levistus on Stygia. The stats attributed to Asmodeus in The Book of Vile Darkness just do not make sense to me.
You can disagree, I won't stop you.
I won't even try to change your mind because my post was largely to try and explain how I see things. I have a far more Prime Material Centric view point, and am far more sympathetic to the gods. The thing with the Planar Centric view is that it makes the prime and the gods completely unimportant in the overall scheme of things - and I don't like that feel as a player or a DM.
(As I think I've mentioned before, in my honest opinion, making the Planes and the denizens that are native to them archetypes of a game mechanic that was designed to simplify an aspect of the game (alignment), is just a bad idea.)
So, first of all, I favor strong planar barriers for deific type entities*, I think it makes for a "cleaner" setting overall while still allowing for "cross setting" plots and it also means that more plot is driven by minions rather than the beings themselves (which I FAR prefer
)Second, my view of the major archtypes of the multiverse is that they are beings whose main concerns focus in the outer planes and that is where their power resides. I see them as "The first gods" so to speak, perhaps they came from a single Prime that was the start of all or perhaps the Outer Planes formed from the original Primes or the Outer Planes formed first. Whatever really ;D But the point is that they are movin and shakin the Outer Planes and if they can find an easy way to subsume a Prime (which is what I view as a "power up" for a particular Plane, but much like hunting cats they need to be VERY careful in how much energy they expend to subsume a Prime because if they don't succeed they've spent a ton of energy for no return, and much like the hunting cats, if you do that you're gonna starve, which in this case is to fall to other Outsider forces
) they will, but in almost every instance a Prime is well defended by the Gods, Overgod and other "Prime agents" or Agents of Balance.As to the power of the ArchOutsiders vs the power of native Deities;
I see them as the masters of their own homes. IE. If an ArchOutsider tries to take on a Deity in the Prime or the planes directly associated with that Prime (ie. The Great Tree) then that ArchOutsider is gonna get the beatdown, real bad because the ArchOutsider is far from their base of power.
(Note: The reason this works in El in Hell is that The Great Tree is an FR reflection of The Great Wheel, which means, IMO, that FR's hell is a reflection of the true hell, and as a reflection of that true hell the power of FR's hell is lesser than true hell, meaning that Greater Gods>ArchOutsiders within The Great Tree, I'd include Lesser Gods as well and probably make it a stand up fight with DemiGods, but this is free thinking right here, haven't worked on exact levels of power and what not *g*)
Probably my favorite things about my theory are;
It gives a hard, valid reason for Archbeings to work through minions, rather than driving the plot themselves. I just don't see an Archbeing focusing on any Prime in particular because that would cloud their perception somewhere else and that's bad
It's quite adaptable and keeps the Realms the Realms and Outside the Realms Outside (ie. The Wand of Orcus was destroyed in the Realms Abyss, or wherever, I don't know that story particularly well, but that doesn't effect the Orcus who's in the Great Wheel, other than the partial drain of power on the Wand of Orcus due to an aspect of it being destroyed. . . if you follow
)I don't feel it takes the focus away from the Deities, I think it gives AO a real job and gives the Gods something to do other than be a parody of Greek style god plots (that's rather harsh, I don't mean it quite that bad ;))
I made it up, automatically making it one of my favorite things :angelhide
*Deific type entities, in this post, refer to any being capable of granting spells
Heya,
You can disagree, I won't stop you.
I won't even try to change your mind because my post was largely to try and explain how I see things.
I run Prime Centric games but I like to develope my Planar Centric views :D
The thing with the Planar Centric view is that it makes the prime and the gods completely unimportant in the overall scheme of things - and I don't like that feel as a player or a DM.
Not on the Gods Prime :D Not even when the Outsiders are uber in comparison, because much like Mystra's Chosen, if Asmodeus took out Mystra he'd be quickly disposed of by Mephistopheles. (Much like if El took out a 15th-20th level caster he'd have to watch out for villian X getting the drop on him)
(As I think I've mentioned before, in my honest opinion, making the Planes and the denizens that are native to them archetypes of a game mechanic that was designed to simplify an aspect of the game (alignment), is just a bad idea.)
Eh, I don't see it as a terrible idea, I see it as terrible if you allow the game mechanic to limit how the Planes work. I don't look at anything in the D&D multiverse as cut and dry, there's all sorts of LG beings who don't agree and who occationally war over the disagreement (less likely than two LE beings waring but it happens) I think, much like any tool, alignment can be an aid, or you can cut your hand off, it's just in how you use it :D
I always preferred 'motivationally handicapped' myself...
That's always been my self-reasoning...
No wonder I work for you then! At least we plot on a scale fitting to beings such as you, we take the century/millenium view rather than the yearly/decade view. Yeah. . . that's the ticket :evillaugh
By the way, at what point do I qualify for the "immortality" healthcare package?
Still don't agree with the basic premise, but at least it would lend a certain consistency to things with that approach, rather than the rather slapshot approach we've gotten from the official... I don't know what to call the cosmology beyond blender on high speed.
By the way, at what point do I qualify for the "immortality" healthcare package?
Oh, you haven't aged for a few months now.;)
Oh, you haven't aged for a few months now.;)
See, that's what happens when you don't read the fine print, you don't know all the keen benifits!
I guess I should go find that contract and see what else I'm missing out on. ... all I need to do is sort the paperwork
Interesting stuff Shadez... and perfectly coherent, to me anyway, but that's not necessarily saying much.
Still don't agree with the basic premise, but at least it would lend a certain consistency to things with that approach, rather than the rather slapshot approach we've gotten from the official... I don't know what to call the cosmology beyond blender on high speed.
Heh, good deal. I suppose I just really want a reason why Outsiders are different from battling any other magically active monster. I also like that with so many players who can subtly influence each other it becomes easier to explain the gods mistakes (ie. The big one for me is the bumbling 3 tricking Mask in the Avatar series, I put that one up to another god interfering with Mask's abilities, that and being an Avatar rather than his all Godlike self *g*)
I also dig the Multi-spheric deity route but then it feels to me like the Outer Planes are "lesser" and the Prime to Outsider progression of adventuring then seems to . . . not work really
But that's all theory, it can easily still work if Gods>Archbeings and it makes the Yugo's even more bad a** for takin out a god :D
And personally, I almost completely ignore the details of the avatar trilogy, canon or no canon. It happened, in a general sense, but a lot of the specific consequences that don't make sense just didn't happen. Another example of why I don't read the novels or use them much as far as my own campaign is concerned, a lot of its just tripe IMNSHO.
How do you feel about non-god, but divine beings in actual mythology? There are quite a number of them, many of which existed before the gods in various pantheons, and have, and can, easily challenge one of them, and often ALL of them? Examples like Jormungdandr, Apep, and Kingu come to mind...
That having been said, I always assumed that even if the Faiths and Avatars Mystra wanted to confront the BoVD Asmodeus in his home plane, it would be unwise. He holds things in check to a degree, in the same manner that Halaster keeps things in check in Waterdeep. Maybe that's a bit simplistic, but it allows me to sleep at night. ;)
And where did you get the idea that Mystra would be able to pwn Asmodeus on his own plane? In Elminster in Hell, it said that Mystra destroyed 1 million devils(about the equivelent of only 1 blood war army) before she was too wounded and retreated. That army was probably about 90 percent weak devils such as lemures, abashai, and barbazu. For a greater deity, that isn't really all that impressive. And since Asmodeus has near absolute control over Baator, he could have booted Mystra out of his plane any time he wanted but didn't probably because he really didn't regard her as much of a threat.
I have to say that outside of their home planes, archfiends would probably be beaten by gods, but in their home planes, they would have a huge advantage.
How do you feel about non-god, but divine beings in actual mythology? There are quite a number of them, many of which existed before the gods in various pantheons, and have, and can, easily challenge one of them, and often ALL of them? Examples like Jormungdandr, Apep, and Kingu come to mind...
The bolded word should put things into perspective.
You forgot the Titans too.
They were usually in the role of deity precursors, and while not all of them were worshipped, they were specific to the pantheon, and specific to the mythological (religious) narative.
DDAe are the Home Name Brand of "non-divine challengers to the gods", and aren't specific to the pantheons of each Prime. On the other hand, they are part of the Planescape narrative, but there the gods don't really fit, other than just being powerful beings who happen to live in the Planes but really have no influence there at all beyond being immensely powerful.
The bolded word should put things into perspective.
You forgot the Titans too.
They were usually in the role of deity precursors, and while not all of them were worshipped, they were specific to the pantheon, and specific to the mythological (religious) narative.
Well, so far that fits pretty well with Planescape. Many of the Lords of the Nine, the Abyssal Lords, and the Hemdobad of Mount Celestia are all based on religious/mythological archetypes of such figures.
DDAe are the Home Name Brand of "non-divine challengers to the gods", and aren't specific to the pantheons of each Prime. On the other hand, they are part of the Planescape narrative, but there the gods don't really fit, other than just being powerful beings who happen to live in the Planes but really have no influence there at all beyond being immensely powerful.
Okay, let's try to go through this bit by bit.
A) They aren't specific to the pantheons of each Prime. No deities were, since 1E, when the Great Wheel was started. The deities of the common Earth religions, and those of Greyhawk, are multispheric. So, there's no difference, here.
B) Ultimately, Planescape posits that power through belief is the only true influence one can have wherever you are. It's just that deities tend to focus on changing the beliefs on the Prime plane more often than on the Outer Planes, so their power is greater there. Fiendish and Celestial Lords do not do so as often, for the most part, so they have greater influence on the Outer Planes.
Well, so far that fits pretty well with Planescape. Many of the Lords of the Nine, the Abyssal Lords, and the Hemdobad of Mount Celestia are all based on religious/mythological archetypes of such figures.
It falls down when you take into concideration the fact that many of these "pantheon precursors" were over thrown, imprisioned, or otherwise defeated by the gods who came after them. Maybe not 100% defeated, some came back to bite the gods on their behinds at times, but in general the gods were triumphant.
Okay, let's try to go through this bit by bit.
A) They aren't specific to the pantheons of each Prime. No deities were, since 1E, when the Great Wheel was started. The deities of the common Earth religions, and those of Greyhawk, are multispheric. So, there's no difference, here.
But they're not multispheric. Thor is not worshipped in Faerun, nor is he worshipped in Oerth, Mystra is not worshipped in Oerth, and Pelor is not worshipped in Faerun - just for a few examples. If they were really multspheric, we'd see odd faiths popping up everywhere (yes, there are a few exceptions to this, but they're hardly the rule).
B) Ultimately, Planescape posits that power through belief is the only true influence one can have wherever you are. It's just that deities tend to focus on changing the beliefs on the Prime plane more often than on the Outer Planes, so their power is greater there. Fiendish and Celestial Lords do not do so as often, for the most part, so they have greater influence on the Outer Planes.
This is completely ridiculous (not your argument, my futile attempts to explain myself). I've been here typing for about five to ten minutes again and continually deleting what I'm writing. I don't think I can adequately explain my position.
What, exactly, is the point of the planes aside from being the homes of the gods? Maybe I'll have a better idea of what I'm trying to say if you can clarify for me what you think the purpose of the Great Wheel is in the first place.
As to the purpose of the Great Wheel, personally I'd say the planes were more the domain of the gods rather than the planar races that inhabit them, since it fits more with my conception of them. Others may say something else. Cases could be made, reasonably, for either point of view, or something entirely different. For example, one could say the Primes were more important since their collective beliefs shape the planes more than anything else. One could also say that the planar races have the same effect, since their conceptions could be said to shape the Wheel. One could also say that the deities shape the way others view the Wheel, since their notions of how it should be are transmitted to their worshippers, and their collective beliefs shape things to their deities will, or perhaps you could come up with a model I haven't thought of... again, its largely the purview of the DM to adjudicate the exact relationships and mechanics of how things work. Which really is how it should be, rather than us being given a concrete model of how things 'truly' are.
We don't know if they're multispheric or not really. We have only half dozen worlds to go off of at best, which is hardly the sum total of the omniverse. Given the small scope of things we really have, I don't think a rational conclusion can really be reached on the matter. Which leaves it largely up to the DM as to whether they are or aren't multispheric.
You're probably right there. And Faerun has a few deities that "interloped" (actually more than a few if you're taking into account the Mulhorandi pantheon). But there doesn't seem to be a rhyme or a reason for it (non-Egyptian/Mulhorandi deities who interloped are single members of their pantheons as a general rule - other primes seem to have a lack of interlopers), and the only limiting factor for Faerun seems to be Ao (wasn't there some kind of gate the Egyptian pantheon used to get to Faerun, and then they were trapped in powerful avatar forms on the prime?).
As to the purpose of the Great Wheel, personally I'd say the planes were more the domain of the gods rather than the planar races that inhabit them, since it fits more with my conception of them. Others may say something else. Cases could be made, reasonably, for either point of view, or something entirely different. For example, one could say the Primes were more important since their collective beliefs shape the planes more than anything else. One could also say that the planar races have the same effect, since their conceptions could be said to shape the Wheel. One could also say that the deities shape the way others view the Wheel, since their notions of how it should be are transmitted to their worshippers, and their collective beliefs shape things to their deities will, or perhaps you could come up with a model I haven't thought of... again, its largely the purview of the DM to adjudicate the exact relationships and mechanics of how things work. Which really is how it should be, rather than us being given a concrete model of how things 'truly' are.
In which case, I think I'm finally going to admit defeat and just... stop with this. I don't think it's serving any purpose other than to confuse me further.
But I'm easily confused.
;)MaskedOne... why DvR 20? Seems insanely high to me... maybe in Nessus only, with a reduction of 1 DvR per layer removed from that, but DvR 20 period seems really excessive to me. Wouldn't put him at more than DvR 5 on the primes for all intents and purposes... and even then it'd be a stretch for me. But I guess its more a matter of opinion than anything else... never heard the trillion devil army thing though. Thought it was considerably more limited than that... millions, possibly even billions, but trillions sounds more like Tanar'ri numbers to me.
MaskedOne... why DvR 20? Seems insanely high to me... maybe in Nessus only, with a reduction of 1 DvR per layer removed from that, but DvR 20 period seems really excessive to me. Wouldn't put him at more than DvR 5 on the primes for all intents and purposes... and even then it'd be a stretch for me. But I guess its more a matter of opinion than anything else... never heard the trillion devil army thing though. Thought it was considerably more limited than that... millions, possibly even billions, but trillions sounds more like Tanar'ri numbers to me.
I've heard enough of the nuisances exploits, raw power and absolute dominion over Baator to make me nauseous. I wanted to give him more than enough power that challenging him within Baator is so insane it isn't funny (at least for most of the multiverse) without actually making him an untouchable overpower or some odd entity beyond the rank of overpower. DvR 20 is the guideline rank in Deities and Demigods for running a monotheistic campaign and still bothering to stat the divinity if memory serves so I thought it fit the bill. I'm not averse to stripping him down if he leaves Baator but since he can pretty much smash the combined efforts of the rest of the Nine and I intended to grant them DvR as well, I'm inclined to say that as Supreme Overlord nitwit of the Nine Hells, Asmodeus stays at full strength anywhere within them.
Because it bears reading.
-Bravo.
-It's only the small minority of bad eggs that has that sentiment, anyway, so I think there is still hope. Education is the key to solving the "problem".
LK if only we knew then, what we know now!!!
If we go by what FC II says, Asmodeus is not nearly as impressive as a god stats wise... I'm not talking about the "aspect of asmodeus", but the overlord himself...
In the Chapter five of the Fiendish Codex II it's said that the TRUE FORM of the archdevils are those of the Book of Vile Darkness...
In the same chapter its written that archdevils are as close to a god as a creature can be without being one, but the stats doesnt really match :P
Then in Faiths and Pantheons they say that (p.11) "Uthgar is really only slightly more powerful than a 20th level character"
And theres also the Kezef and Mask thing... Why would Mask run from something like that?
Maybe its the gods that have their stats messed up
Maybe its the gods that have their stats messed up
More or less that is true. F&P came out in 3e. By 3.5e, the designers made the conscious choice to limit their mechanics material to no more than 20th level, since from their research most game groups stay within level 1-20 for the overwhelming majority of play. With that decision, all books of the 3.5e period fit under that framework. This caused problems because now much of epic FR 3e looks ridiculous in comparison to D&D and FR 3.5e including the Archfiends and FR's Elder Evils, all of whom they present now as CR 19-28 or so; perfectly within the range of high level level (~15-20) play as opposed to epic level 21+ play. Now when comparing Malkazid, Kezef or even Dendar (CRs in the 20s from Champion of Ruin) to Elminster (CR 39 in the FRCS) there seems to be a huge discrepancy, especially considering these beings are supposedly very power, enough that Elminster and the Chosen should have an extremely tough if not impossible time defeating them.
This certainly didn't help the perception of "ungodly good NPCs" who remove heroic adventure opportunities for PCs. This was not the fault of the setting but rather bad game design on the part of the designers.
Originally Posted by Lord Karsus
-Bravo.
-It's only the small minority of bad eggs that has that sentiment, anyway, so I think there is still hope. Education is the key to solving the "problem"
The critics are not just all bad eggs as frequently stated in a disdainous way. It is insulting.
Many critics are actually peoples who loved the settings (or still do), or who at least wanted to give it at least a fair chance. And such criticism can be founded and constructive.
I am tired to see a section of the fandom handwaving haughtily EVERY critics in a 'they don't get it!' way.
The critics are not just all bad eggs as frequently stated in a disdainous way. It is insulting.
Many critics are actually peoples who loved the settings (or still do), or who at least wanted to give it at least a fair chance. And such criticism can be founded and constructive.
-Critics? What critics? The Simbul here basically shot down any sort of argument they can form in one fell swoop- very Simbulesque.
I am tired to see a section of the fandom handwaving haughtily EVERY critics in a 'they don't get it!' way.
-When the metaphorical they has a sound, logical and solid argument (such as the Great Tree vs. the Great Wheel argument), points are taken and noted. When the metaphorical they does not have a solid, logical, and sound argument, such as in this case, the metaphorical handwaving begins, accompanied with dismissals.
The designer posts have already shown, that they fall into the category of what I chalk up to as being "Lazy DMing". They figure that it is too much trouble to bone up on the history and lore that they are being paid to continue, and would much rather "Nuke" the high level PC's. And undo, or undermine most of the current history as it is "Unworkable".
All I can say, is that I must have been working miracles, as I have never run out of plot potential, and have never resorted to iconic NPCs as a Dm.
I always bring back the analogy, if you have a computer problem, why doesn't Bill Gates swoop in and solve it for you? He certainly has the power and knowledge to fix what ever your problem is, so you should just sit back and wait for him right?
Everyone knows that the reality of the world is much different than that, and so why should it be any different for the chosen? Especially since their primary directive is the stability, and proliferation of magic. Magic is neither good nor evil, so a cabal of wizards subtly taking over a country may not be something they can do anything about, as it may be helpful to their goals.
And if the almighty chosen can't be bothered to fix every little problem with the PC's, then why should the other NPC's get involved? Heck, do the PC's even have the knowledge checks to even know about them?
I've resigned myself to accepting the fact that the realms are most likley changing into something that I most likely won't like. As such, I see no reason not to switch entirely to a home brew campaign. That way I am assured that no more lazy developers can pull the rug out from under me again.
The others are not so well known but they exist. Nearly every country has some high powered,sometimes even superpowered, NPCs working for it.
No matter where the PCs go there will always be good aligned higher level NPCs which could do the job of the PCs a lot better and have ever reason to do it. Always saying "This NPCs are busy to stop random other BBEG X" is imo silly and hurts the suspension of disbelieve by a huge amount.
I want that the FR feels like a real world (with its own set of laws) and not like a comic book world where a evil world destroying supervillian pops up every week.
With all that high powered NPCs around its impossible to DM the FR correctly. Either you let the high powered NPCs steal the show and violate "Concerns of the Mighty" or you ignore quite a bit of established lore from the realms, the existance of those NPCs.
So WotC is only doing what most DMs already do in their FR games. Remove those high level NPCs so that the PCs can have an adventure.
The problem with The Simbuls argument is that she assumes that the Chosen are the only super high powered good aligned NPCs in the realms. But this is not the case.
The others are not so well known but they exist. Nearly every country has some high powered,sometimes even superpowered, NPCs working for it.
There aren't as much good aligned 10+ lvl characters as there are neutral or evil ones. I think it was Kuje who made a poll of NPCs and determined that good high lvl npcs were minority
No matter where the PCs go there will always be good aligned higher level NPCs which could do the job of the PCs a lot better and have ever reason to do it. Always saying "This NPCs are busy to stop random other BBEG X" is imo silly and hurts the suspension of disbelieve by a huge amount.
I want that the FR feels like a real world (with its own set of laws) and not like a comic book world where a evil world destroying supervillian pops up every week.
Stop thinking only in terms of stats, that is why you are making so many asumptions about why Good Aligned High level NPCs are a problem. They don't need to be stoping random BBEG X, there are many other things that can do. One of them could be resting after returning from another country, or was hurt during the attack and there is no cleric that can tend his hurts, or so many damn other reason appart from "stoping randomg BBEG X". They are NOT only numbers, they have a personality and you are not considering it. You need to think WHY Good NPC Y should try to solve the problem instead of the PCs (and don't justify it just because they have a Good Alignment, the 9 alignments are just guidelines on how the character acts not rules on what they have to do to keep that alignment)
With all that high powered NPCs around its impossible to DM the FR correctly. Either you let the high powered NPCs steal the show and violate "Concerns of the Mighty" or you ignore quite a bit of established lore from the realms, the existance of those NPCs.
It's NOT impossible to DM the FR correctly, A couple month ago I ended the first chapter of my campaign that was set in the Silver Marches during Flamerule 1372 DR (particulary High Forest, SILVERYMOON, MITHRAL HALL, and Silverymoon's surrounding areas). Let's just list some of the Good Aligned NPCs:
Alustriel Silverhand (Chosen of Mystra)
The companions of the Hall (Drizzt and co.)
Lady Morgawis of the forest
Many high level members of the Knights of Silver and the Spellguard
Members of the Guardians of the Weave (one of my players is a member)
Many Harpers
And even with all those Good NPCs in the area the players were the heroes of the story. They were the ones who stopped a group of Sharists from destroying Silverymoon's Mythal. Do you know how the story started? It started when a couple of loggers in the High Forest dissapeared and Alustriel asked a group of adventurers (the players) to investigate the mistery. The players were the ones who began the investigations and discovered what happened. Alustriel did learn, thanks to the players, what was happening. You know what she did? She readied the Silver Knights and Spellguard to guard the city if the Sharran's plot suceeded and continued with her efforts to found the confederation of the Silver Marches.
My players fought with Drizzt and co. to protect Mithral Hall from an orc army. Not even once Drizzt had to save the players from danger because the characters did well. THEY knew how the attack would proceede and THEY formed the strategy. Drizzt asked the players how he could be usefull in the strategy, and he followed the player's instructions.
The guardians of the Weave were represented by one of the players. The Harpers were searching for the other groups that supported the BBEG.
As you can see, I sucesfully ran a story in one of the areas with the greatest concentration of good NPCs and they never outshined the players.
I am tired to see a section of the fandom handwaving haughtily EVERY critics in a 'they don't get it!' way.
Good for you, I'm tired of seeing all your grouchy posts (when was the last time you made a non-disdainful post, buddy?).
No matter where the PCs go there will always be good aligned higher level NPCs which could do the job of the PCs a lot better and have ever reason to do it. Always saying "This NPCs are busy to stop random other BBEG X" is imo silly and hurts the suspension of disbelieve by a huge amount.
I want that the FR feels like a real world (with its own set of laws) and not like a comic book world where a evil world destroying supervillian pops up every week.
Ok two things. First, if there is absolutly no reason why an NPC wouldn't get involved, then it is up to you as the DM to take things a step further. For example, lets say that whatever calamity is about to befall Silverymoon would logically involve Alustriel. You as the DM have options. You can go the easy route, and say that she is out doing the chosen thing, away on an ambassadorial mission, experiencing feminine issues, or whatever.. Or you can involve her indirectly. Perhaps there is a political issue involved, and she dare not act lest she play into her enemies plans. Or perhaps she contacts the PC's and has them act as their agents. After all, if she were to get involved, it woould draw all sorts of attention. The PC's are lesser known, and can go un noticed where she cannot. Or give the bad guys some credit. If the PC's know about Alustriel, then the Bad guys most certainly do. They would have prepared for her, and would have taken some measures to take her out of the picture. Perhaps they stage a series of events that leads her on a wild goose chase. Perhaps they even managed to capture her...
Get the point? And anything that works for her, would work for anyone else. All it takes is for the DM to put a little thought into it, not be lazy, and put some effort into it.
Second, if you want it to feel like the real world, look to my analogy. In real life, there is not a collection of powerful do gooders out to solve all your problems for you. People have their own agendas, and desires. Why should the realms be any different? The Harpers are people, thus imperfect and flawed. It's up to you as the DM to bring those flaws out, until they are paralyzed with them, and unable to act. Thereby leaving it up to the PC's to save the day.
-Critics? What critics? The Simbul here basically shot down any sort of argument they can form in one fell swoop- very Simbulesque.
-When the metaphorical they has a sound, logical and solid argument (such as the Great Tree vs. the Great Wheel argument), points are taken and noted. When the metaphorical they does not have a solid, logical, and sound argument, such as in this case, the metaphorical handwaving begins, accompanied with dismissals.
they are not quite 'shot down' so perfectly. There was solid, hard point that she yelded directly or not, and that are dismissed then.
they are not quite 'shot down' so perfectly. There was solid, hard point that she yelded directly or not, and that are dismissed then.
-How so? Where? I'm not feeling like reading back 10 pages of a conversation we all had months ago.
-How so?
With the 5th level dismissal spell of course.
With the 5th level dismissal spell of course.
-Point taken.
A well presented argument, with most of which I fully agree. But at the same time, you miss the point completely.
You see, I personally (and I'm not alone, rest assured) find the designers' decision to fill the setting to the brim with insanely powerful NPCs (Elminster, Blackstaff, Szass Tam, Larloch, the Simbul, the list goes on and on) quite shortsighted, and frankly, just plain annoying.
Admittedly some, like Halaster, do have their place in the setting. And novels are fine, having legendary NPCs is fine, it all makes the world a richer place. But putting stats behind those names (not a small number of names, again), and making them better than the PCs can ever hope to become, just doesn't make any sense at all. Especially is some of them happen to have highly meddling and adventurous personalities, and ties with even more meddling and powerful organizations and/or entities.
Even if you never meet them, or use them in any way, shape or form in your campaign (which defeats their purpose, making this reply much too stupid to be used as often as it is), there's still that meta-knowledge in the back of your mind, that you will never be the best no matter how hard you try.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is the point. In Eberron, I do not have to shoot for godhood to be able to say that I'm the best at what I do. I do not have to play 6 hour sessions 5 days a week for 10 years of real time to make a significant impact on the setting. Now don't get me wrong, I love FR to death. But it does have its share of issues, and denying their existence completely only shows how unreasonable some people can get in defending their point of view.
In Eberron, I do not have to shoot for godhood to be able to say that I'm the best at what I do.
-Why do you have to be "the best at what [you] do"?
Especially is some of them happen to have highly meddling and adventurous personalities, and ties with even more meddling and powerful organizations and/or entities.
That's what high-level folks in the Realms do. When you get to high levels, you can do that, too.
I don't agree with the assertion that the setting is "filled to the brim" with NPCs that are "way better than the PCs ever could be", either. And besides, "better" is subjective.
I don't agree with the assertion that the setting is "filled to the brim" with NPCs that are "way better than the PCs ever could be", either. And besides, "better" is subjective.
Especially when you can even have the exact same power than Elminster. Just be a good asset to Mystra and if she thinks you are more valuable with her Silver Fire then ping, you are a new Chosen.
And by 'better,' I meant exclusively 'more powerful in mechanical terms.' That should have been obvious. Whether or not we will be the best, and whether or not we'll even strive to be the best, has nothing to do with whether or not we are given the possibility. And when you create (and stat) so many NPCs who are only a step away from divine status, that possibility is nearly completely removed.
Drizzt, Entreri and Jarlaxle for instance, while powerful, are in a completely different league. I never complained about those. (Though they are statted rather clumsily, so I stand by my original claim that iconic characters shouldn't be presented with fixed numbers to begin with.) Anything wrong with them not being omnipotent, near-godlike beings of iwin? Of course not.
And by 'better,' I meant exclusively 'more powerful in mechanical terms.' That should have been obvious.
I disagree, I prefer articulation.
Whether or not we will be the best, and whether or not we'll even strive to be the best, has nothing to do with whether or not we are given the possibility. And when you create (and stat) so many NPCs who are only a step away from divine status, that possibility is nearly completely removed.
I disagree. Who says you can't achieve near godhood in a game?
Plus those that do not like the Chosen or other thigns about the Realms but like the Realms are smart enough not to voice their opinion here unless they wish to get into a 46 page arguement that goes nowhere fast.
They can still read what's here, though. *shrug*
What's your point, here? That this thread is pointless? I don't think so. It's a thread, there for those who are interested, whether they post in it or not.
They can still read what's here, though. *shrug*
What's your point, here? That this thread is pointless? I don't think so. It's a thread, there for those who are interested, whether they post in it or not.
The people she is trying to reach out to arn't even going to see this most likley so it is mildly pointless when it comes to trying to get the point across to those people. The small amounts of people that feel that way and hang here may not reply though since they don't wish to get their heads bitten off.
It is a well thought out post though. I never was bothered by the NPCs in my game but I could see how other people were.
Even if you never meet them, or use them in any way, shape or form in your campaign (which defeats their purpose, making this reply much too stupid to be used as often as it is), there's still that meta-knowledge in the back of your mind, that you will never be the best no matter how hard you try.
For me, it's less being 'the best' and more 'being relevant.'
In other settings, the powerhouses tend to be neutral, or otherwise unconcerned with local affairs, even such affairs as wars. But in the Realms, a lot of the big guns are very, very evil, or divinely-empowered agents of good, which suggests a level of activity and involvement in the affairs of the Realms.
A dozen people can derisively tell me 'then don't use them!' but that doesn't explain why they even exist at all, if the big defense is that you're not supposed to use them! (And one is left to wonder that if the *defenders* of the uberNPCs recommend not using them, what's the point?)
Plus, I'm not *always* the DM. I may not have a choice is whether or not they show up and save the day, or just take the fire out of a victory by reminding the players that they could have dealt with it all with a snap of their fingers, had they not been busy doing something 'important' and reminding the players that anything they fought and struggled to do was basically small potatoes, not worth their time.
This isn't a Realms-specific problem. If I'm playing DC Super-Heroes and Superman shows up and saves the day, or the Green Lantern Corps swoops in and fixes everything after our amazingly epic battle, making it clear that they *could* have swept in five minutes earlier and done everything we had just accomplished much, much easier, it's equally cheapening for the players. It's definitely not Realms-specific, but the setting does *encourage* this style of play, with it's surfeit of amazingly powerful characters who kinda sit around and don't do a heck of a lot, and are supposed to be 'off in Hell or something' if the storyline dictates that they not be available.
And while it's easy to heap contempt on fellow gamers for seeing this as a problem, if the heads of the company see it as enough of a problem that they have to call up Ed Greenwood and tell him to write a novel that sends Elminster to Hell so that he won't be 'in the way' for the big event they want to write, then it's not just a few easily-derided gamers thinking that this is an issue, there's some harder-to-snippily-dismiss honchos at WotC who think that Elminster is occasionally 'in the way' of dramatic storytelling.
I don't care if the player characters are 'the best' at anything. It is only important that their struggles and adventures *mean something,* and aren't invalidated by the knowledge that anything they did means nothing and could have been dealt with by any of a dozen bored good-aligned uberpowers, had any of them roleplayed their alignment and bothered lifting a finger doing good, instead of just scribbling a 'G' on their character sheet.
The 'mudflation' of these epic NPCs also leads to the biggest issue, for me anyway, with the Realms in general. Realms-Shaking-Events. Oh no, there can't be a war between Cormyr and Sembia, that's not nearly RSE enough. Instead gods have to die, countries collapse into the sea, dragons swarm by the hundreds, dimensional invaders swarm across the world, etc, etc. Too much Epic, IMO.
These Epic NPCs are the number one cause of RSEs, IMO. 'Cause everything's gotta be insanely big and uber, with gods rubbing each other out in the Realms own irregularly-scheduled recreation of St Valentines Day Massacre and cities burning to the ground and countries changing hands.
There's a point where a novel like Moonshadow is worth ten Times of Troubles. A character like Arilyn or Danillo can make a difference, a character of PC-like abilities, who can serve as an inspiration.
The small amounts of people that feel that way and hang here may not reply though since they don't wish to get their heads bitten off.
I did, and my head seems to be no less attached to the rest of my body than it was before. We can agree to disagree on certain matters.
There's hypocrisy and nitpicking on both sides (and I mean FR tradition vs reformation in general, not necessarily restricted to this topic), and the thread is pointless, of course, as neither side will ever yield. This is more about the enjoyment people find in explaining their opinions and bashing those of others. Hell, let's face it... that's the reason most people frequent forums to begin with.
If people constantly are bombarded with these uber characters, where does that leave the average hero or villain? Where do they fit in? If the perception that the Forgotten Realm's is a setting where Epic Character's rule, there is a strong inclination on behalf of some who play in the setting to get to epic levels ASAP. They want to battle side by side with Elminster and the other Chosen or plot against them. Overall, it cheapens the setting because it over looks 99.9999999% of the other individuals in the world to focus on those very select powerful few.
Why can't most of the novels be focused around lower level protagonists - around 3rd to 6th level? Such individuals are already more powerful than 98% of the rest of their race. (Keeping in mind that the vast majority of NPC's in the world are level 1.) You do not get that impression by reading a novel or reading a source book.
A dozen people can derisively tell me 'then don't use them!' but that doesn't explain why they even exist at all, if the big defense is that you're not supposed to use them! (And one is left to wonder that if the *defenders* of the uberNPCs recommend not using them, what's the point?)
I'm not going to be "derisive".
But I think when people suggest that DMs not use characters they happen to dislike or see as a problem, it's really more about telling them to take control of their own games than a way of quietly agreeing that the Chosen of Mystra and other powerful characters are a "problem for the setting". There are so many other characters to use (perhaps even ones you create yourself), why wonder about ones you don't like? And remember, what some find burdensome, others enjoy. For example, I would love to be in a game where my PC got to work with a Chosen of Mystra. I don't think it's a given that my PC would be overshadowed by said Chosen of Mystra. Others obviously don't see it that way--they might cringe at such a thought.And that's fine.
Plus, I'm not *always* the DM. I may not have a choice is whether or not they show up and save the day, or just take the fire out of a victory by reminding the players that they could have dealt with it all with a snap of their fingers, had they not been busy doing something 'important' and reminding the players that anything they fought and struggled to do was basically small potatoes, not worth their time.
Does that happen in a lot of games? People often mention such an example as if it happens all the time, with many, many players as victims. I would say that a DM who uses a high level NPC as a way of browbeating the players isn't being very thoughtful...but I also don't "buy it" that these nightmare scenerios are as common in real life as they are in the world of the hypothetical. Simply put, there's no way to prove such examples are commonplace with statistics--and I'm not willing to accept all such anecdotes as the norm (not to mention that most of the time, such anecdotes aren't even presented as having really happened in someone's personal experience).
It's definitely not Realms-specific, but the setting does *encourage* this style of play, with it's surfeit of amazingly powerful characters who kinda sit around and don't do a heck of a lot
I think your mistake is to assume that high level characters just sit around and don't do a heck of a lot. Where did that assumption come from?
And while it's easy to heap contempt on fellow gamers for seeing this as a problem, if the heads of the company see it as enough of a problem that they have to call up Ed Greenwood and tell him to write a novel that sends Elminster to Hell so that he won't be 'in the way' for the big event they want to write, then it's not just a few easily-derided gamers thinking that this is an issue, there's some harder-to-snippily-dismiss honchos at WotC who think that Elminster is occasionally 'in the way' of dramatic storytelling.
Well, WotC thinks Elminster and the Chosen of Mystra are popular enough to keep putting out novels and/or featuring those characters, sometimes even in starring role. Elminster shows up an awful lot! And he'll be around for 4E too. I guess old El actually sells pretty well, and isn't as unpopular as some people like to make him out to be.
So while I'd agree with you that WotC does (IMO mistakely) think Elminster can get in the way of a story (see the Shadowdale adventure module), that doesn't mean they think he's a problem for the setting overall. Therefore I think this particular point of yours is on the weak side.
I don't care if the player characters are 'the best' at anything. It is only important that their struggles and adventures *mean something,* and aren't invalidated by the knowledge that anything they did means nothing and could have been dealt with by any of a dozen bored good-aligned uberpowers, had any of them roleplayed their alignment and bothered lifting a finger doing good, instead of just scribbling a 'G' on their character sheet.
Once again, the "uberpowers", as you call them, don't sit on their hands all day doing nothing. And of course, not all of them are good or act in the interest of good.
I'm totally with you when you say you want the player's adventures to "mean something". However, you seem to be suggesting that it's a given that the adventures of the PCs won't mean anything if very powerful NPCs happen to exist in that same setting. I disagree. And you know...your point actually seems a bit contradictory. Earlier, I thought you said you didn't like it if high-level NPCs "swooped down" and stole the thunder of the PCs. Here, you seem to be suggesting that that's exactly what they SHOULD be doing (not sitting on their hands!), and they aren't truly that great if they don't?
The 'mudflation' of these epic NPCs also leads to the biggest issue, for me anyway, with the Realms in general. Realms-Shaking-Events. Oh no, there can't be a war between Cormyr and Sembia, that's not nearly RSE enough. Instead gods have to die, countries collapse into the sea, dragons swarm by the hundreds, dimensional invaders swarm across the world, etc, etc. Too much Epic, IMO.
*laughs* I agree with you there. But I don't think I agree that NPCs are the cause of these RSEs. The real cause is, of course, the direction the owners of the setting want to take the FR in. And of course, they probably sell well, too, otherwise why put out so many RSE novels?
These Epic NPCs are the number one cause of RSEs, IMO. 'Cause everything's gotta be insanely big and uber, with gods rubbing each other out in the Realms own irregularly-scheduled recreation of St Valentines Day Massacre and cities burning to the ground and countries changing hands.
No, that doesn't follow. See above.
I did, and my head seems to be no less attached to the rest of my body than it was before. We can agree to disagree on certain matters.
Right.
There's hypocrisy and nitpicking on both sides (and I mean FR tradition vs reformation in general, not necessarily restricted to this topic), and the thread is pointless, of course, as neither side will ever yield.
I wouldn't say that. I'm not the type to do 180 degree turns when it comes to my opinions (most people aren't like that, and I wouldn't want them to be), I have, in fact, been influenced by debates with people I disagreed with. And sometimes I really do change my opinion. Debate isn't pointless.
If people constantly are bombarded with these uber characters, where does that leave the average hero or villain? Where do they fit in? If the perception that the Forgotten Realm's is a setting where Epic Character's rule, there is a strong inclination on behalf of some who play in the setting to get to epic levels ASAP. They want to battle side by side with Elminster and the other Chosen or plot against them. Overall, it cheapens the setting because it over looks 99.9999999% of the other individuals in the world to focus on those very select powerful few.
Emphasis mine. What is "it?"
Why can't most of the novels be focused around lower level protagonists - around 3rd to 6th level? Such individuals are already more powerful than 98% of the rest of their race. (Keeping in mind that the vast majority of NPC's in the world are level 1.) You do not get that impression by reading a novel or reading a source book.
Ehhh...I disagree with you on that last part. I can add my cry to yours that WotC seems less interested in novels about smaller conflicts nowadays. However, there are still novels that deal with characters that aren't super-powerful (I just read a great one--Crypt of the Moaning Diamond). And, flipping through the sourcebooks one sees that most NPCs mentioned are most definitely not of epic level. Many rulers aren't of high level, but rather mid-level.
.words.
Here's what really makes me roll my eyes. WOTC agree's with the players that are complaining. So they say, "Ok, we've heard your complaints, and we are going to fix them! All those areas that have been really developed, we are going to wipe clean... we'll almost all. Some are important settings in the novels, and they make us money. So, all the settings that don't make us money, we are going to get rid of. And all those annoying uber level NPC's? They are gone! Well... except for Elminister.. Oh, and Drizzt! We make too much money on Drizzt. Oh and Cale, can't forget Cale too.. So, all those NPC's that don't make us money are gone! Oh, and by the way.... we make money on the novels, so we will continue to put those out. Introducing new cool high level npc's, and fleshing out these new blank settings that we have created for you!"
So how are they really addressing the "problem"? All they are doing is setting themselves up for facing the same thing again in a few years. Then again, I never saw there being a "problem" to begin with.
Emphasis mine. What is "it?" Ehhh...I disagree with you on that last part. I can add my cry to yours that WotC seems less interested in novels about smaller conflicts nowadays. However, there are still novels that deal with characters that aren't super-powerful (I just read a great one--Crypt of the Moaning Diamond). And, flipping through the sourcebooks one sees that most NPCs mentioned are most definitely not of epic level. Many rulers aren't of high level, but rather mid-level.
I was referring to the situation that Soltares described as 'mudflation'.
My point was basically this: There is a very real perception out there that the Realm's is the home of Uber-Epic NPC's. Seriously, when you think of the Realm's who or what is the first thing that pops into your mind? Elminster? Larloch? The Simbul? Even Drizzt (as written in the novels) is a power house of "iwin".
It does not matter what is true. You are battling the perception. I do not have the WotC polling data, but based on what we know of 4E FR there seems to be a large segment of potential Realm's fans out there who share some type of negative feeling toward the 'epicness' of the NPC's. Otherwise, why would they be going out of their way to downplay and kill them? Elminster, for example, is practically crippled in 4th Edition.
Also, we have to keep in mind that WotC is trying to balance book sales vs the D&D game. The two have a competing interest.
You summed up what is going to happen rather well. However, you've also overlooked the fact that they've already stated that there will be a 5th Edition. So, by the time that rolls around they'll be ready to wipe the setting clean again (assuming it's still around and making money).
My point was basically this: There is a very real perception out there that the Realm's is the home of Uber-Epic NPC's.
I guess so. We really can only go by what we hear on the internet (which isn't reliable), or what the designers tell us. I'm sure Rich has stats that back up the rationale for changing around the Realms, but I haven't seen them for myself (I'm not demanding to, but the point is I can't see the proof, if it really does exist).
Seriously, when you think of the Realm's who or what is the first thing that pops into your mind? Elminster? Larloch? The Simbul? Even Drizzt (as written in the novels) is a power house of "iwin".
None of the above, actually.;)
I think most often of my own characters. I think that says something right there.
It does not matter what is true. You are battling the perception.
"Battling"? LOL, I'm not going to war over this. But I see absolutely nothing wrong with telling people their perceptions are false, if I think they are (and explaining why I think that way).
I do not have the WotC polling data, but based on what we know of 4E FR there seems to be a large segment of potential Realm's fans out there who share some type of negative feeling toward the 'epicness' of the NPC's.
Right, you don't have data.
Large Segments? What does that mean? Half? More than half? One third? Without having data, all you can do is make suppositions.
Otherwise, why would they be going out of their way to downplay and kill them? Elminster, for example, is practically crippled in 4th Edition.
There aren't enough details about Elminster, yet, to describe him as being "practically crippled". Let's see how his story plays out, first. And the fact that Elminster is still going to be around at all suggests that El probably isn't hated by most Realms fans. He and Drizzt are probably the worst possible examples to use when speaking of powerful NPCs that some unknown-but-probably-large number of people hate and want to get rid of.
Also, we have to keep in mind that WotC is trying to balance book sales vs the D&D game. The two have a competing interest.
Not sure what you're saying here.
And, what is "mudflation?"
And I have to ask myself, what is this 'mudflation'... can't quite puzzle it through either.
Bonzai-
You summed up what is going to happen rather well. However, you've also overlooked the fact that they've already stated that there will be a 5th Edition. So, by the time that rolls around they'll be ready to wipe the setting clean again (assuming it's still around and making money).
Emphasis mine. Funny thing is, on the other hand they're saying that 4E is the best system they've ever come up with.
Sort of reminiscent of the 3/3.5 situation. If they know the system to be flawed in advance, why don't they implement the improvements now, instead of announcing yet another edition before this one even hit the shelves? That's just illogical and contrary to their interests... Do they really expect people to be happy knowing that they'll be spending hundreds of dollars and re-learning the system every other year? I think many will just go down the eyepatch & funny accent road. Or switch to a different publisher/game altogether. There are some very interesting alternatives available.
My, that was completely off-topic.
...Carry on.P.S.
I'm with the others on the 'mudflation' business. Do explain.
- WotC is a company and has employees. They must pay those employees. As such they must create products that generate money. In order to ensure that their products make money they conduct market research. Thus, taken in context, it should be safe to assume that WotC believes that the Realm's will sell better through the changes being made to it.
That doesn't necessarily mean we'll like the changes. I don't like them, well most of them - there are a few I like - and I know you don't like them either. That's beside the point. If they lose us both as Realm's fans and gain two to replace each of us (a net gain of four) then our parting, while disheartening, is overall irrelevant to the bottom line. They'd rather keep us AND attract new customers, but at the end of the day they're out to make money.
- The books and the D&D Setting: The Forgotten Realm's have competing interests. The books often overrule what happens in the source material. For example, you can put out a source book dealing with the Moonsea and Sembia, then a few months later you can have Hillsfar fall and giant fragments from a Tear of Selune all but wipe Sembia off the map. Because that would happen in a novel, and novels are cannon, it invalidates the lore contained within the source book.
Additionally, we have to keep in mind that the books sell better than the setting, and there are a lot of people who read the books but don't play the game. Thus, while there may be a number of gamers who dislike Elminster and the Chosen, those who read the novels may love him to pieces. Thus one side may have to yield to the other or a compromise must be struck.
For example, I don't buy the novels. I learn what happens in them second hand by those who read them. I don't buy the novels because I don't want what happens in them to cloud or ruin my perception of the Realm's. I don't like what I hear, and the novels that I have read weren't that great (to put it mildly). Additionally, the way I envision the Realm's may go counter to the way a Realm's writer may envision the same thing and I don't want their vision to taint my own. (To put it bluntly, I don't like to share the setting with them. :P)
- On a purely personal note I dislike a lot of the uber NPC's because I feel that they taint the setting by their presence. Some of them, (and I won't say names to avoid their defenders) have too much influence that is disproportionate to their actual role and place. I don't like them, I don't like how they're written, and I don't like how they're portrayed, and I dislike (to the point of resentment) that they are injected into the lore. There are some NPC's that I like and others that I dispise, but I imagine everyone has similar feelings.
What I dislike the most, however, is that novels are written that mostly focus around a select group of individuals. Those novels are more about those character's than the world itself. I am not intersted in the characters, but the world - I have my own characters. There are some NPC's that I like and others that I despise, but I imagine everyone has similar feelings.
What I dislike the most, however, is that novels are written that mostly focus around a select group of individuals. Those novels are more about those character's than the world itself. I am not interested in the characters, but the world - I have my own characters. I just want a world for them to exist in - that is why I use the Realm's.
I'd rather WotC just release source books giving me the geography, the weather patterns, some town layouts, key location guides, a handful of locally important NPC's that I can easily remove or modify should I desire, and a permission slip to run wild and do whatever I want with it. I want WotC to cover the boring and tedious work of world building - that's all I want from them.
I don't want the other cr*p that they produce. Give me what I need to run a game in the world, give me local customs and flavor, do all the things that are too tedious and time consuming for me to perform, and I'd be happy. That's all I want. They get bonus points if the world is independent from a rules system.
Or switch to a different publisher/game altogether.
That is what I am doing. I am leaning toward going GURP's 4E, but I have heard very good things about Warhammer - I don't know much about it - but I want to give it a look.
I'm with the others on the 'mudflation' business. Do explain.
I was repeating what Soltares said - it was his word.
The 'mudflation' of these epic NPCs also leads to the biggest issue, for me anyway, with the Realms in general. Realms-Shaking-Events. Oh no, there can't be a war between Cormyr and Sembia, that's not nearly RSE enough. Instead gods have to die, countries collapse into the sea, dragons swarm by the hundreds, dimensional invaders swarm across the world, etc, etc. Too much Epic, IMO.
I am aware of that, yes. I even had the fortune to play one arcanist into high epics (only with Shar as patron instead of Mystra). It's just that the bar is raised really, really, really high.
Mystra's Burden isn't given based on what level you are.
In fact, I see nothing about Elminster's role in the setting that demands for him to be given stats at all.
There isn't. He was given stats because lots of people wrote in to Dragon in the early to mid-1980s.
. . . if the heads of the company see it as enough of a problem that they have to call up Ed Greenwood and tell him to write a novel that sends Elminster to Hell so that he won't be 'in the way' for the big event they want to write, then it's not just a few easily-derided gamers thinking that this is an issue, there's some harder-to-snippily-dismiss honchos at WotC who think that Elminster is occasionally 'in the way' of dramatic storytelling.
They must have neglected, then, to read the sourcebooks that state that Elminster is a sage who spends most of his time researching and much of that in other planes, for months at a time.
These Epic NPCs are the number one cause of RSEs, IMO.
. . . the problem with uber NPC's is not their mechanical power, but the perception that they create on the setting. This is mostly due to the novels, which introduce RSE after RSE involving uber-epic NPC's . . .
The way high-level intrigue works in Ed's work and most Realmslore is flatly contradictory to how the books department has done the RSEs and accompanying arms race. The two factors pull in opposite directions.
Why can't most of the novels be focused around lower level protagonists - around 3rd to 6th level?
I've asked this for years. The answer is that the high sales of the Avatar trilogy and the first Elminster books, neither of which should have been published, led the books department into a harmful, unsustainable trap.
It's non-trivial to understand this publishing history, and not anyone's fault if they aren't aware of it. But so many of the lies told about the Realms melt away entirely once you are. And till then the next question of what Wizards 'should' do about it can't be realistically discussed.
I don't want the other cr*p that they produce. Give me what I need to run a game in the world, give me local customs and flavor, do all the things that are too tedious and time consuming for me to perform, and I'd be happy. That's all I want
Er... did it ever occur to you to just ignore the novels entirely? As in, to just not treat them as canon? That way, you only need to use the sourcebooks you tout the virtues of so much without worrying about what changes as time passes. In the meantime, others who do want to play in a constantly changing Realms can read the novels and adjust their own campaigns to match.
but I have heard very good things about Warhammer - I don't know much about it - but I want to give it a look.
As somebody who's spent a lot of time digging through WHFRP... it's very much a dark fantasy setting. If you're looking for a "shiny" sort of place, you won't like it very much at all.
Er... did it ever occur to you to just ignore the novels entirely? As in, to just not treat them as canon? That way, you only need to use the sourcebooks you tout the virtues of so much without worrying about what changes as time passes. In the meantime, others who do want to play in a constantly changing Realms can read the novels and adjust their own campaigns to match.
LOL. I think everyone's Realmsian campaign is constantly changing, depending on what the PCs are doing.
The main beef I have with this argument is why you can't change. Why do the people who don't like constant revisions to the world they use have to suck it up and love it? Why don't the people who like constant change make up their own
change and leave the other people be? Because that's the way it's alwasy been. A lot of people are riding the waves of inertia. Well guess what? The tide is changing.
As somebody who's spent a lot of time digging through WHFRP... it's very much a dark fantasy setting. If you're looking for a "shiny" sort of place, you won't like it very much at all.
I've heard as much and it's one of the reasons I am considering giving it a very good look over.
I am debating on what I should do to proceed with gaming in the Realm's. I am thinking about going forward with the Spellplague, but using a different rule system and really making it a dark setting. Things would change, drastically, and not for the better.
What did you think of WHFRP? Was it any good?
Why do the people who don't like constant revisions to the world they use have to suck it up and love it?
They don't. They can just ignore those revisions. Nobody's forcing them to go along with changes made by novels. I would say that everybody has their own "personal" form of canon as defined by the adventures undertaken by PCs, and they don't have to include the events of a novel in that canon unless they want to.
What did you think of WHFRP? Was it any good?
I quite like it, and am currently participating in two different adventures for it. The rules system takes a little bit of getting used to, but I found that once I'd managed to acclimate myself to it, combat and everything seemed to flow much more smoothly than in D&D. That being said, it's only my perception of how it works - others might find it more "clunky" than I did.
It should be noted, too, that WHFRP doesn't have "levels" per se. Rather, it uses careers, and advancements within a career. So you might start out as an Apprentice Mage (which is one of the starting careers). Once you've used your experience points to purchase the necessary advancements (extra WS, magic, wounds, boosted agility, and so on), you could move out into a different career, such as "Journeyman Mage". Nothing stops you, of course, from going from the Apprentice Mage career into a Scholar career as an alternative option, which would lead to the character developing along those lines instead. This is only a very broad overview, mind you.
The setting itself (as in, the background) is something I'm a bit of a "buff" on, so to speak - I could spend hours tracking down every last scrap of detail I can find for it, and often have in the past. Note, however, that WHFRP is to an extent beholden to the parent company (Games Workshop) for occasional background changes to the setting it makes use of (one example would be the Storm of Chaos event that took place a few years ago now), which alters the tone of subsequent books. For that purpose, paying attention to the Army Books released for the Warhammer Fantasy tabletop game is sometimes worthwhile (the policy is that Army Books are canon to the setting - they aren't seperate), especially since WHFRP tends to focus on a specific area of the WH world (the "Old World", to be more precise), and Army Books often shed light on other places. However, the occasional changes are far less common than the ones wrought by novels in FR, so you can get by without needing to worry about a massive upheaval every six to twelve months.
I am not interested in gaming in Warhammer per-say, although I have heard good things about the setting. I am mostly looking for a new rule set that I can adapt to a darker version of FR post Spellplague, using my own custom changes and ignoring cannon completely.
I am toying with some ideas, such as retconning everything that happened just before the Time of Troubles out of the game. I'd then just combine the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague into one massive RSE that took place over the course of several years, and deviating from cannon completely after that point.
I changed the paradox in the new Mage to "Wild Magic", if they botch the roll for casting the spell then they suffer some effect because they failed to properly cast the spell, and it's the Mage society that doesn't wants to reveal their powers because they fear to be discovered, not because a lame paradox can screw them, it's other Mages who stop the possibility of blowing half the earth, not a damocles sword called paradox. If they trully need to use flashy spell they can, just be careful to not be seen.
2nd Edition Realms books had a ton of this sort of thing, and it seemed like every third or fourth product had a new and higher level uberNPC in it, starting with mere 20th level people, and then transitioning up to (gasp) 24th level people (OMG! There were no rules for characters going past 20!), and then 27th level people, and then charts for spellcasters that increased all the way to 30th level, and then *40th* level, and then the darned Phaerimm, an entire *species* of beings that were all 25th-35th level Wizards who automatically enslave anyone who enters their domain anyway!
I mean *dayum,* what's the game use of that? And worse, a *race* of that?
"Yeah, it's a floating cone of flesh with a mouth at the top and six arms and you love it and will serve it forever. No save. Write up characters for our next game."
As the good guys got more and more insane, Elminster starting out surprisingly spry for an octogenarian, and as real-world time moved forward, his birthdate flew backwards at amazing speeds, until he was centuries old and drank potions of longevity, and then almost a millenium old and kept alive through his Chosen status (since potions of longevity kinda went bye-bye). He kept adding levels, and eventually levels in other classes, and then unique abilities like psionics, spellfire and / or Chosen abilities, and it seemed that each time he got an upgrade, the baddies of the Realms also crept up in power (although Szass Tam and Manshoon never quite got there, but new dudes*, like Halastar and Larloch or whatever were added).
[*New to *me* anyway, since I got into the Realms back when the only 'realms' products were little articles in Dragon named 'The Merry Month of Mirtul' or whatever. I get that to fans who showed up later, Larloch is some big deal or something.]
So, basically, mudflation. Things kept getting bigger and stronger, which led to everything else becoming bigger and stronger to remain relevant. Dove's 8th level. No, she's 12th level. No, she's 18th level, and Chosen. Drizzt is a butt-kicking dual-wielding Dark-Elven clutch-stomping son-of-a-gun. Drizzt has levels in Fighter *and* Ranger, even 'though non-humans couldn't dual-class, back then, and Dark Elves can't be Rangers, and OMG who cares about the darn rules, he's just that much more awesome than any of your characters with their pathetic 'rules' could ever be! Drizzt now also has all of the Thief abilities, despite not being a Thief. Drizzt now also can make an Assassination attack, despite his good alignment, and not being an Assassin. Drizzt now wears Bracers of the Blinding Strike on his danged *feet,* because he was so freaking awesome that if he put them on his wrists like a normal bloke, he'd break the space-time continuum or some dang fool thing.
In 3rd edition, thankfully, some of this craziness was toned down, and the random 'exceptions' where replaced with special feats and templates, but it still got totally silly for awhile there.
As for Mystra's Chosen, specifically, the 'mudflation' is when some writer says, 'Hey, I've made this totally kewl new character, and he's the 'Chosen' of Deneir!' and somewhere a tiny voice says, 'No, Mystra has Chosen because of the scope of her portfolio, so integral to the setting that no one entity, not even a Greater Goddess, could entirely contain it. Deneir, as god of, um, writing or some such, is *completely* unsuited to having a Chosen.' and the writer says, 'LALALALA, I can't hear you! Chosen of Deneir! HAHA!'
And then there's Chosen of Bane. And Chosen of Shar. And the mud, she's keeps 'flatin.'
Why can't most of the novels be focused around lower level protagonists - around 3rd to 6th level?
-While I am sure that a lot of us would buy such a book, due to our fascination with the setting, what are the odds that such a book is a 'widespread hit'? In the end, the point of the novel line is to make money, not to depict the Realms in a loving manner, and all of that.
The main beef I have with this argument is why you can't change. Why do the people who don't like constant revisions to the world they use have to suck it up and love it? Why don't the people who like constant change make up their own
-This, I agree with, in the sense that everything shouldn't be changed for everybody just because one particular faction wants things one way or the other.
Do you know if it would be possible to adapt WHFRP to an FR Game with a darker and more survivalist tone? Do the rules lend themselves to the 'dark fantasy' feel, or is that more tied to the setting itself, independent from the rules?
You could probably adapt it without too much trouble. Magic is very different, though.
Yeah, I played WHFRP once as a mage and I hated that I couldn't do anything useful, while the fighters were solving everything.
That happens at the lower levels - once the mage gets access to his Arcane Lore (For those unaware: eight colour winds to choose from - you pick one, or you can go the Dark Magic/Necromancy road) and a magic stat of 2 (1 in the case of the Arcane Lore being the Lore of Light, because of the damage spell that becomes available), he tends to start pulling his weight far more. WHFRP is based in a low-magic setting, after all. Or rather, low-magic at the level the games take place (things like High Magic and Black Magic are ridiculously high-end, and are deemed "out of range" of a WHFRP campaign). Magic items are few and far between, magic is (in the WH world) mistrusted, often outright feared, by the general populace, and so on and so forth.
Well, I also don't like settings where magic is feared by the general populace, not only makes the life of mages harder, it also makes them the villains in the eyes of people even when they are the heroes.
In the case of the WH world, the general populace have good reason to fear magic, since it is not only birthed from Chaos (the "big bad" as far as the common person is concerned), but it brings madness, mutation and death where it goes. To them, nothing good can come of an association with such powers (of course, they don't know where priestly magic comes from... but I digress).
Though if you're talking about the idea of mages being mistrusted rather than the reasons for it, then I guess we'd just have to agree to disagree. A fear of magic works in the WH setting, I think. It obviously wouldn't work in some other settings.
Emphasis mine. Funny thing is, on the other hand they're saying that 4E is the best system they've ever come up with.
Happens all the time in many other industries, my friend. A company's new product is always better than the one it's replacing, whether it truly is better or not.
I'm not surprising at all to hear WotC playing the same tune.
Rinonalyrna I think you are missing the point.
I don't think so.
What I dislike the most, however, is that novels are written that mostly focus around a select group of individuals. Those novels are more about those character's than the world itself. I am not interested in the characters, but the world - I have my own characters. I just want a world for them to exist in - that is why I use the Realm's.
I understand, but again, if WotC is always ordering those types of books, perhaps they actually sell well. If books about Elminster were just sitting on the store shelves collecting dust, I don't think they'd be so prominent (ie. they come out in Hardcover, a collector's edition just came out, Ed keeps writing stories about Elminster).
Also, I'd like to point out that most books tend to be about, well, a "group of characters" that drives the story. And yes, not all protagonists are super-powerful and well known. I give credit where credit is due.
-While I am sure that a lot of us would buy such a book, due to our fascination with the setting, what are the odds that such a book is a 'widespread hit'? In the end, the point of the novel line is to make money, not to depict the Realms in a loving manner, and all of that.
A lot of the older FR novels, especially in the Harper series has to deal with low level heroes and villans.
Parch Sea and Soldier of Ice comes to mind. It is only later on that Wotc up the power level of the novel characters.
The old Harper series was a good example of how to write FR novels without a RSE.
LOL. I think everyone's Realmsian campaign is constantly changing, depending on what the PCs are doing.
The main beef I have with this argument is why you can't change. Why do the people who don't like constant revisions to the world they use have to suck it up and love it? Why don't the people who like constant change make up their own
Because that's the way it's alwasy been. A lot of people are riding the waves of inertia. Well guess what? The tide is changing.
Err, what are you arguing about here? And with whom?
Because I can say, from deeply personal experience, that I love all the high-level NPCs and the classic Realms, and I am NOT a fan of the constant bombardment of RSEs on the setting.
The 4E Realms is being brought about with an RSE, remember? The worst one we've ever seen, in fact.
As for Mystra's Chosen, specifically, the 'mudflation' is when some writer says, 'Hey, I've made this totally kewl new character, and he's the 'Chosen' of Deneir!' and somewhere a tiny voice says, 'No, Mystra has Chosen because of the scope of her portfolio, so integral to the setting that no one entity, not even a Greater Goddess, could entirely contain it. Deneir, as god of, um, writing or some such, is *completely* unsuited to having a Chosen.' and the writer says, 'LALALALA, I can't hear you! Chosen of Deneir! HAHA!'
And then there's Chosen of Bane. And Chosen of Shar. And the mud, she's keeps 'flatin.'
Hey, I get what you're saying. For the record, I don't believe in Chosen unless they are Chosen of Mystra.
As for mudflation--I see your point, but I think that has to do with mechanics more than with the characters themselves. Rules and mechanics change over time, and no character truly "needs" stats, so to argue that characters are detrimental based on their everchanging stats can be a bit silly.
Remember that with MMOs, the company that owns the game is in control (or at least, they usually are? I'm not a player of MMOs). In your own home campaign, you are in control. You can set stats to be whatever you want.
The old Harper series was a good example of how to write FR novels with a RSE.
You mean "without" an RSE...?
The old Harper series was a good example of how to write FR novels without a RSE.
Like the serie Lost Empires.
Or if we go to the books with RSE then Starlight & Shadow is the best of them for a VERY LONG shot. Elaine can't get better and I love Liriel.
Mudflation is a slang term used by online gamers to describe the gradual increase in power levels that occurs every time a new spell, item, class or race option is added that is just a little bit better than all the previous stuff
This happened far more in the 3E rules supplements than pre-3E or in the Realms.
2nd Edition Realms books had a ton of this sort of thing, and it seemed like every third or fourth product had a new and higher level uberNPC in it
This is the level inflation that's happened throughout D&D, in all settings. It isn't the least bit specific to the Realms, and it doesn't reflect the setting itself and its spirit at all, just its published rules implementation. Remember, Ed didn't want to publish any character stats, encouraged the DM to change or ignore them, many of those that saw print were supplied by editors and developers, and these rules writeups are not and have never been intended as Realmslore.
, starting with mere 20th level people, and then transitioning up to (gasp) 24th level people (OMG! There were no rules for characters going past 20!)
You're confusing the chronology: characters higher than 20th appeared in 1E sources, with a ruleset without any level cap for humans, then 2E rules for those levels appeared in Forgotten Realms Adventures, which was in part a 2E conversion book.
I mean *dayum,* what's the game use of that? And worse, a *race* of that?
Mostly offscreen, as the revelation (anagnorisis) of a new layer of string-pullers. Realms creatures aren't just monsters to fight one on one, though yes, secondarily, a challenge to high-level characters -- 'what's the use of a tarrasque?' except the Phaerimm are tightly integrated into Realmslore and are the basis of much good historical work and adventure hooks in Ruins of Myth Drannor, DDGttU and Lost Empires.
As the good guys got more and more insane, Elminster starting out surprisingly spry for an octogenarian, and as real-world time moved forward, his birthdate flew backwards at amazing speeds, until he was centuries old and drank potions of longevity, and then almost a millenium old and kept alive through his Chosen status (since potions of longevity kinda went bye-bye).
Again, that's not what happened. The oldest source that discusses Elminster says 'he is at least six hundred winters of age' and likewise keeps the nature of his longevity ambiguous. This is clarified by Elminster: The Making of a Mage in the early 1990s, revealing a detailed backstory that would have stayed mysterious had TSR not caved to fan pressure to unwisely make him a novel protagonist. 3E comes out several years later and does not remove potions of longevity from the setting, just the rules.
He kept adding levels, and eventually levels in other classes, and then unique abilities like psionics, spellfire and / or Chosen abilities, and it seemed that each time he got an upgrade, the baddies of the Realms also crept up in power (although Szass Tam and Manshoon never quite got there, but new dudes*, like Halastar and Larloch or whatever were added).
All characters in the Realms, PCs or NPCs, are likely to have minor additional powers that no single rules write-up reflects. Unless Ed gets to publish his 1000-page encyclopedias, there will always be many more characters, including 'powerful' ones if that's your interest, not yet mentioned. That's the nature of the Realms, and it has nothing to do with inflation, but with making the world seem real, full of secrets, and with new things round each corner -- as far from stagnation as could be.
and the writer says, 'LALALALA, I can't hear you! Chosen of Deneir! HAHA!'
Yes, this arms race happened with egotistical authors who didn't understand what Mystra's Chosen were, just as ill-considered RSEs strove to trump each other, as Jim Butler admitted.
Again, to discuss the Realms with any clarity at all, we have to talk about the actual publishing history, not your impressionistic daubs, understand why things were done, and distinguish the setting itself and its consistent underlying nature from what was momentarily done to the setting and how it was presented.
A lot of the older FR novels, especially in the Harper series has to deal with low level heroes and villans.
Parch Sea and Soldier of Ice comes to mind. It is only later on that Wotc up the power level of the novel characters.
The old Harper series was a good example of how to write FR novels without a RSE.
-Yes, very good books, most of them.
-But, notice how novels "like that" aren't written anymore...
The Knights of Myth Drannor series, most of the 'class' and 'city' and 'dungeon' books...
-Plenty of novels in the latter categories contain plots and plot elements that are quite far-reaching in nature.
The Knights of Myth Drannor series, most of the 'class' and 'city' and 'dungeon' books...
One of the dungeon books had sharn and a devil worshipper. I wouldn't call those low level.
One of the dungeon books had sharn and a devil worshipper. I wouldn't call those low level.
Number one, those are villains/antagonists, and they tend to be more powerful than the heroes, right? Otherwise they wouldn't be a threat.
Number two, I thought we were talking about RSEs, not simply "novels with any powerful characters in them".
Number three, what is the power cut-off level, here? What's acceptable?
Most--not all, but most--of the "one-off" novels feature unknown and often low to mid-level characters as protagonists and plots that couldn't be considered RSEs.
PS: I've read every single one of the Class books and Dungeon books, too (and all but one of the Cities series). I can discuss them and know what I'm talking about.
PPS: Those who want more of a classic, personal story featuring not-too-powerful protagonists in a story that doesn't involve an RSE should check out Crypt of the Moaning Diamond.
-Plenty of novels in the latter categories contain plots and plot elements that are quite far-reaching in nature.
In the sense that everything has consequences (and threads from old stories can be picked up and woven into new stories), sure. However, does that make them RSEs? Depends on how you define RSE. I wouldn't even call what happens in the Blackstaff novel to be an RSE, because I don't think the nature of the event is truly "setting-shaking" (
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And as much as I love the Blackstaff, I don't think he's so important to Faerun that his death is "world shattering" to the inhabitants within the setting
One of the dungeon books had sharn and a devil worshipper. I wouldn't call those low level.
Forgot to mention. A lot of the older novels that you said you revere involved "powerful" characters! So, it's not true that only recently have novels featured powerful characters.
I wouldn't even call what happens in the Blackstaff novel to be an RSE, because I don't think the nature of the event is truly "setting-shaking" (ShowAnd as much as I love the Blackstaff, I don't think he's so important to Faerun that his death is "world shattering" to the inhabitants within the setting
Because my response was to lower the Canon Level of the NPCs rather than kill them horribly.
One of the dungeon books had sharn and a devil worshipper. I wouldn't call those low level.
-That was Depths of Madness.
-Eh, I think that the return of a long-forgotten Elven city, as well as the death of the Blackstaff, and all of the political rammifications of both qualifies as a RSE. Perhaps a 'Regional Shaking Event', if not Realms-wide.
-I don't like arguing with you.
*laughs* We aren't really arguing, just disagreeing.
I agree that it could be considered a "region shaking event." Remember though--the elven city is meant to be a secret to all but a select few, and as far as most people know Khelben isn't dead (as Tsarra is masquerading as him).Why can't a novel be written dealing with the intrigues between Cormyrian Noble Houses, or events that take place between various political groups within Sembia? Why can't an entire novel - or series of novels - be written from the prospective of level 1 common people, nobles and merchant folks? These people make up 99.99% of the world, surely there must be an interesting story in there somewhere!
I am not opposed to magic or fantastical things but I do have limits. The setting as a whole, in part because of the novels and uber epic characters, has created a setting where even the fantastical and magical seems mundane. People complain about floating islands and land in 4E, but let's be truthful - they are not out of place in the Realm's. We already have floating cities.
Because authors want their stories to be 'unique' and 'interesting' and they want their characters to impact the world in big ways, it requires them to constantly grow them ever more powerful, resulting in ever greater effects. This ultimately culminates in the Spellplague. This whole problem is related to the concept that everything in the Realm's MUST be magical and fantastical in nature.
In fact, the 4E setting is STRIVING for exactly that goal: everything must seem magical and fantastical. There is nothing mundane any longer. When the 4E changes were first announced I was excited because I had hoped (naively) that they were using the Spellplague to make the world less fantastical, less magical and more mundane. I had hoped that they would bring it back into the scope of everyday common people. That wasn't the case and as a result my interest in the 4E Realms is virtually non-existent.
I come from an entirely different school of belief. I want magic and such things to be out of the ordinary, perhaps not completely unheard of, but it may be something that a commoner experiences once in a lifetime. It is something reserved for the PC's and a select few individuals and power groups throughout the setting. The concept of things such as Thaymart should be killed - crushed, burned, and its ashes scattered to the winds.
It should be possible to game in the Realm's as a low level noble and not have to worry about an epic level Wizard showing up, altering your mind to change your outlook on the world, if not out right enslave you permanently - forever. You should never have to gain a single level to enjoy the Realm's or enter into a single combat. I should be able to count the number of Epic Level NPC's on both hands and still have fingers left to count additional ones that I add myself. All of that - and the whole adventurer route - should be optional.
Of course, that is not just the fault of the novels but also the D&D system that encourages combat over diplomacy, and assumes that most games are little more than glorified dungeon crawls.
I'm the type of person who enjoys reading things like the Commoner Campaign - I tune in each week to learn what happens in the life of Joe Wood. You can read the Commoner Campaign here. I highly recommend it for an interesting story, though not really professional quality, it is still better than many novels based in the Realms.
Don't think its a question of 'level' per se, so much as one of scope. I'd agree that Blackstaff didn't qualify as an RSE, since the return of that city wasn't going to affect much beyond the immediate region all that heavily, and even that was going to likely be a fairly minimal impact... perhaps long term it might have affected things, but from what I understood, its return was hardly common knowledge, or likely to be in the near future.
Right, the events of the book were designed to be closely kept secrets.
I think the point is still being missed. There can be interesting stories written in the Realm's that do not even require the main character's to have class levels!
Of course. I don't think anyone was disputing that, actually.
But the point I was trying to make, in my earlier posts, was that novels with very high level characters and RSEs might well be more prevalent in recent years (I know RSEs are, at least), but that doesn't mean the FR novels from the "olden days" were all small-scale personal stories with very low level (if not classless) characters. The Avatar Trilogy is pretty old (dates back to 1990, I think?), and that's probably the ultimate RSE trilogy. Arilyn Moonblade was hardly a slouch at fighting--level 12 or so. That's not exactly a novice. And of course, there's good old Drizzt Do'Urden, 16th level ranger but written in a way that suggests he's even better than that--and he's been with us since 1987.
The thing is this all comes down to personal preference. Some people will LOVE the 4E Realms. It will be the setting that they've always dreamed of and they will be happy and play it. I'm happy for those people. There are those here who look at the setting and say, "Woah! They've taken things too far - it's too magical and fantastical!"
However, from my prospective the Realm's has been sliding in that direction almost since its inception and has gotten worse with each passing year. Hence my agreements with Soltares over his use of the term "mudflation" (which he detailed wonderfully in a previous post).
I am not anti-magical or anti-fantastical. I just believe that in order for them to exist there must be an even greater amount of 'mundane'. Therefore, when something magical or fantastical happens - it means something. If the players or readers are constantly bombarded with magical-ness and fantastical-ness then in order to achieve the same level of "awe" you need to create an even GREATER amount of magical-ness and fantastical-ness to accomplish the same goal.
Thus, over time there has been a build up (mudflation) - and this has ultimately culminated into the abomination known as 4th Edition Forgotten Realm's. Rather than just seeing it as something WotC pulled out of their butt's after a night of heavy drinking, I see it as a natural evolution of the product driven by the desires of the majority of the fans who purchase the novels and game materials.
I am happy for those people who enjoy it. I am just not one of them.
Forgot to mention. A lot of the older novels that you said you revere involved "powerful" characters! So, it's not true that only recently have novels featured powerful characters.
i haven't read those in a while but like the example i gave "Soldier of Ice," the heroes were relatively low level and main villan was a low level ice demon. Which qualify as canon fodder in most of the newer high level novels.
Number one, those are villains/antagonists, and they tend to be more powerful than the heroes, right? Otherwise they wouldn't be a threat.
Number two, I thought we were talking about RSEs, not simply "novels with any powerful characters in them".
Number three, what is the power cut-off level, here? What's acceptable?
Most--not all, but most--of the "one-off" novels feature unknown and often low to mid-level characters as protagonists and plots that couldn't be considered RSEs.
PS: I've read every single one of the Class books and Dungeon books, too (and all but one of the Cities series). I can discuss them and know what I'm talking about.
PPS: Those who want more of a classic, personal story featuring not-too-powerful protagonists in a story that doesn't involve an RSE should check out Crypt of the Moaning Diamond.
I was basically responding to Faraer who was using the dungeon and city books as examples of recent novels that are low level. I was pointing out while the scope is not a RSE the characters involve are hardly a low level bunch. The villans were pretty high level (not epic but pretty high) and heroes themselves aren't that powerless either.
I'm not knocking WotC alone, Rinonalyrna. The problem goes all the way back to TSR, and in some ways directly to Ed and our differing preferences over what we'd like to see in the setting. Ed and I agree with some things and disagree on others, but I'd like to think that we agree more than we disagree. :P
Well i am knocking WoTc on this. Ever since 3rd ed it was one RSE after another. The novel lines rain RSE every few months. While some of the older TSR novels did involve mid to high lvl characters TSR didn't have that many RSE. Basically Wotc swamp themselves with RSE and thier solution is to reset the setting so they can start all over again.
i haven't read those in a while but like the example i gave "Soldier of Ice," the heroes were relatively low level and main villan was a low level ice demon. Which qualify as canon fodder in most of the newer high level novels.
I haven't read that book, but I believe what you're saying about it.
However, I still think it's important to remember that not all older books were like that. I could have read you wrongly, but it seemed to me like you were saying that powerful characters and RSEs are a "new thing". They are more frequent, but definitely not new.
I was basically responding to Faraer who was using the dungeon and city books as examples of recent novels that are low level. I was pointing out while the scope is not a RSE the characters involve are hardly a low level bunch. The villans were pretty high level (not epic but pretty high) and heroes themselves aren't that powerless either.
Well, first off I'd hope that any novel "hero" worth his salt wasn't actually powerless.
Like I said, I've read most of the one-off books (dungeons, cities, classes, etc.), and I can say with certainty that most of the heroes were either low level or mid level.
Well i am knocking WoTc on this. Ever since 3rd ed it was one RSE after another. The novel lines rain RSE every few months. While some of the older TSR novels did involve mid to high lvl characters TSR didn't have that many RSE. Basically Wotc swamp themselves with RSE and thier solution is to reset the setting so they can start all over again.
I don't dispute that fact. It's absolutely true. However, I think what is important to keep in mind that it is nothing new. The only thing that has changed is the frequency of the RSE's, and as far as I understand it, TSR had already started walking on that path when WotC purchased the Realm's setting. They have not tried to alter course, but I guess... why would they? People continue to buy the products and I assume that there is a market for them. Otherwise, they would change their marketing tactics.
I can only assume that I am in the minority. However, that's fine with me. I know what I like and what I don't like.
Here is what I said over in my retcon thread. I am using the thread to theorize on ways to "fix" the Realms more to my liking. It's just me brainstorming and throwing out ideas. One of the ways *I* would fix the Realms is by limiting the powerful and magically capable NPCs in it.
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Scope of Power: The "power level" of the Realm's should change drastically. I am unsure of the gaming system I will use, but to use D&D terms this is how I would like to see it.
Epic NPC's: They are virtually non-existent. Epic NPC wise throughout the entire setting - the entire planet of Toril - there should be no more than a handful of Epic level NPC's. Period. In terms of "power" Epic is considered anyone over 20th level. They should equal roughly 0.000001% of the population. Therefore, in all of Faerun and its island nations (including Evermeet) there would be 8 epic level NPC's.
High Level NPC's: They are very rare - they are the exarch type individuals - they are the powerful movers and shakers. For terms of power they are the levels 10th through 20th. There would be no more than 8,133 of these folks throughout all of Faerun with other regions (such as Kara-Tur) given their own numbers. These people make up approximately 0.001% of Faerun.
The total population of Faerun and the island nations (including Evermeet) is approximately 81,335,966 individuals. This does not include the Underdark.
Magical Inclination: Of those living on Faerun and its island nations approximately 5% have the potential to wield either arcane or divine magic. Of these individuals 40% actually have learned - either through accident or training - how to wield magic.
There are 4,066,798 potential magic users on Faerun and its island nations, with 1,626,719 actually wielding either arcane or divine magic. Of these individuals 20% (325,343) are divine magic users and the remaining 70% (1,301,376) are arcane magic users. There are 32 level 10-20 divine magic users, and 130 level 10-20 arcane magic users in all of Faerun and its island nations.
Putting this in prospective: Cormyr has a population of 1,360,800 and 5% of that population has the potential to wield either arcane or divine magic which comes to roughly 68,040 individuals. Of those individuals 40% actually wield some form of magic which equals 27,216 individuals. Of those people, 20% (5,443 individuals) are divine magic users, and the remaining 70% (19,051 individuals) are Arcane Magic users. Of those individuals who can wield magic there are no level 10-20 divine magic users, but there is one level 10-20 arcane magic user.
There are no epic NPC's in Cormyr but there would be 136 level 10 - 20 NPC's in Cormyr, including the arcanist mentioned above.
Epic NPC's: They are virtually non-existent. Epic NPC wise throughout the entire setting - the entire planet of Toril - there should be no more than a handful of Epic level NPC's. Period. In terms of "power" Epic is considered anyone over 20th level. They should equal roughly 0.000001% of the population. Therefore, in all of Faerun and its island nations (including Evermeet) there would be 8 epic level NPC's.
High Level NPC's: They are very rare - they are the exarch type individuals - they are the powerful movers and shakers. For terms of power they are the levels 10th through 20th. There would be no more than 8,133 of these folks throughout all of Faerun with other regions (such as Kara-Tur) given their own numbers. These people make up approximately 0.001% of Faerun.
The total population of Faerun and the island nations (including Evermeet) is approximately 81,335,966 individuals. This does not include the Underdark.
Magical Inclination: Of those living on Faerun and its island nations approximately 5% have the potential to wield either arcane or divine magic. Of these individuals 40% actually have learned - either through accident or training - how to wield magic.
There are 4,066,798 potential magic users on Faerun and its island nations, with 1,626,719 actually wielding either arcane or divine magic. Of these individuals 20% (325,343) are divine magic users and the remaining 70% (1,301,376) are arcane magic users. There are 32 level 10-20 divine magic users, and 130 level 10-20 arcane magic users in all of Faerun and its island nations.
Putting this in prospective: Cormyr has a population of 1,360,800 and 5% of that population has the potential to wield either arcane or divine magic which comes to roughly 68,040 individuals. Of those individuals 40% actually wield some form of magic which equals 27,216 individuals. Of those people, 20% (5,443 individuals) are divine magic users, and the remaining 70% (19,051 individuals) are Arcane Magic users. Of those individuals who can wield magic there are no level 10-20 divine magic users, but there is one level 10-20 arcane magic user.
There are no epic NPC's in Cormyr but there would be 136 level 10 - 20 NPC's in Cormyr, including the arcanist mentioned above.
I enjoy much more my character Alediran knowing that he isn't that alone in the world, I love the big quantity of spellcasters from all kinds, I love magic being common, it's something that anybody with enough intelligence can do, and most elves are spellcasters. I love playing during Mage Fairs and Mageduel tournaments in big cities. I don't care being "special" because Alediran is a Wizard, what makes him unique, and that counts for any character (a figher, a druid, a bard, a paladin a wizard or anything else), is his story, that's what makes him one of a kind.
Err, what are you arguing about here? And with whom?
Because I can say, from deeply personal experience, that I love all the high-level NPCs and the classic Realms, and I am NOT a fan of the constant bombardment of RSEs on the setting.
Then I guess I'm not railing against you. If the next RSE happens during the release of 5E, then I'll be happy.
Halruaa has as much Spellcasters as your number of Spellcasters for the whole world...
That isn't the number of spellcasters for the entire world - just Faerun and the Island Nations (including Evermeet). It didn't include the population of the Underdark.
However, I'm not sure that's possible. Halruaa only has a population of 1,676,160 individuals. That means everyone but 49,441 individuals would be arcane magic wielders. Heh, but to each their own. :P
*laughs* We aren't really arguing, just disagreeing.
-I don't like disagreeing with you.
I think the point is still being missed. There can be interesting stories written in the Realm's that do not even require the main character's to have class levels! They could all be level 1 Aristocrats, Experts and Commoners! How many stories and tales over the centuries have been told where no one possessed magical abilities and everyone was, more or less, just a normal person finding themselves in either interesting or unusual situations?
Why can't a novel be written dealing with the intrigues between Cormyrian Noble Houses, or events that take place between various political groups within Sembia? Why can't an entire novel - or series of novels - be written from the prospective of level 1 common people, nobles and merchant folks? These people make up 99.99% of the world, surely there must be an interesting story in there somewhere!
-While I agree, like I said before, the ultimate goal of the novel line is to make money. Is the casual reader (the broad consumer base) really interested in such situations? Or, do they want to read about CG Drow, Shades, and other assorted explosions? I really can't see something like what was described above ever happening, unless it was interweaved in another story, in which of the 'more common elements' are included. The Dream Spheres is a good example. Intrigue, on a fairly low-key level, and all of that, with some well known Forgotten Realms NPCs involved.
Basically Wotc swamp themselves with RSE and thier solution is to reset the setting so they can start all over again.
-What's that term? Muckification?
Which explains a lot of FR novels.
I agree. As I said - I know I am in the minority. I don't begrudge WotC for making what sells; they are a corporation after all. Of course, at the same time, I hope that I am not the only person who finds himself more interested in Cormyrian Political Intrigues than uber-epic-high-level-ultra-powerful-sorcererses-who-can-destroy-entire-an-nation-of-wizards-because-she-doesn't-like-them. :P
Charles Phipps,
That should be plainly obvious without even conducting market research. Heh. It's probably one of the reasons why 4E won't fall flat. The same is true with the whole D&D brand I think. It is sad because it goes counter to how the whole system should work.
Studies have shown that FR readers buy the brand, not the quality sadly.
Which explains a lot of FR novels.
-I used to do that. Then, I took a step back after reading a particularly bad novel (The Howling Delve), which I really had to labor to finish, and said to myself, "Why do I buy even the ones that don't seem interesting to me in the least?". I've stopped, since.
Of course, at the same time, I hope that I am not the only person who finds himself more interested in Cormyrian Political Intrigues than uber-epic-high-level-ultra-powerful-sorcererses-who-can-destroy-entire-an-nation-of-wizards-because-she-doesn't-like-them. :P
-Cormyrian intrigue, I've had enough of. Calimshite intrigue, though, that's always fun.
So many interesting places in the Realm's get no attention at all.
So many interesting places in the Realm's get no attention at all.
-Don't forget, though: ALL of the Realms are overdeveloped and cluttered, leaving DMs no ability to do anything. ;)
In other places, though, they create major epic pending events. *Cough*Thay*Cough*
Their solution to fix the problem? Blow up even more places, introduce new places, and create an even bigger epic event that encompasses everything!
It is kind of like saying, "Oh no! My house is on fire!" Then turning around and looking for a can of gas to put it out.
Hey, I get what you're saying. For the record, I don't believe in Chosen unless they are Chosen of Mystra.
As for mudflation--I see your point, but I think that has to do with mechanics more than with the characters themselves. Rules and mechanics change over time, and no character truly "needs" stats, so to argue that characters are detrimental based on their everchanging stats can be a bit silly.
Remember that with MMOs, the company that owns the game is in control (or at least, they usually are? I'm not a player of MMOs). In your own home campaign, you are in control. You can set stats to be whatever you want.
Which is true, but if I make the mistake of telling anyone that I have reduced Elminister to an 8th level Diviner, I get told that he was never a problem, and I suck for missing the whole point of the Realms and that I should have kept him off-screen doing stuff way more important than anything my PCs would get involved in.
It was the Time of Troubles that prompted me to leave, after converting all of my friends (rather naggingly, I fear) over to the Realms setting. They graciously took me back into Greyhawk games with nary an 'I told you so' after my Realms proselytizing. But whenever I think of coming back, it's the overwrought reactions from the fans to my changing *anything* that drives me back away, most recently to the Scarred Lands, then Eberron and, this year, Freeport. The fans of those settings have been much more willing to discuss tweaking stuff and even sweeping changes (such as using only the 'big eight' dieties in Scarred Lands and skipping the racial dieties altogether, or setting Freeport in the Olman Isles region of Greyhawk, which led to some neat discussion, but not a single, 'Well, you're doing it wrong, and since you don't get it, maybe this setting isn't for you,' comment, which has happened more than once with the extremely passionate* FR fanbase.).
*And yeah, I get that this passion for the setting is why it's done so well, and the lack of such passion is why Scarred Lands is dead, Greyhawk is in it's tenth year of coughing up blood and Freeport is a niche setting. The passion is a huge silver lining with a teensy bit of cloud that might serve to drive some people away.
Soltares might point to what I'm about to say as a classic example of the overwrought reaction of a Realms fangrrl (though he never used the term fangrrl or boi or whatever, I'm using it here), but that's not what this is...
Meldread, it seriously sounds like you're in the wrong setting. The Realms is not and has never been low magic (which is what you described). Ed has certainly never described it in terms of the mundane being more common than the magical... I mean, for a start, he has said that the Gods really truly talk to people (indirectly, as always, through dream visions, and omens, and other manifestations) - mundane regular people and not just Chosen or uberpowerful adventuring types.
Have you tried pitching an idea for a novel featuring a 1st level expert, commoner, or aristocrat to WotC? If you have, I think it would be enlightening to know what their reaction was. If not, why haven't you? If you really think there's a large enough audience for it, go for it... I might even read it myself.
There are quite a few fantasy novels that incorporate political intrigue and fresh off the farm protagonists, some of which don't also involve uberpowerful ancient evils bent on the destruction of the world. But if you're really serious about reading stories about "ordinary" people, I would suggest you look at literature rather than speculative fiction. Ordinary people don't tend to shine that much against extraordinary backgrounds, not unless they're driven to extraordinary deeds - which then means they're no longer ordinary.
Having said all that, you're free to do whatever the heck you want to your Realms (yes, Soltares, even free to make Elminster an 8th level Diviner if you so choose), but you have to be aware that at its basis, the Realms is a High Magic, High Fantasy world - it was so even as far back as 1st Edition. (By the way, in 1st Edition there was a chance any character at all could have a (or even multiple) wild psionic talent(s) - that's where Elminster probably gets his psionic talents from, which have since been disappeared somehow or folded into his Chosen powers... I think it may have been one of the appendixes at the back of the DMG, therefore optional rules, but I don't have a 1st Ed DMG any more to check (I'm keeping an eye out for one on Ebay in mint or near mint condition for my collection), and I'm kind of trying to get to bed at the moment so I'm not going to go check my 1st Ed PHB which is on a shelf in another room... And you can tell I'm tired by the way I'm rambling... but I digress...)
And lost the plot.
I think that's really all I have to say right now. I'm not trying to chase either of you away from the setting or the boards, I just think you're blowing things completely out of proportion. Campaigns/Role Playing/Story Telling > Rules. Right? That's what Rule 0 is for. And the boards are for discussion and offering our opinions... and this was mine. -I don't like disagreeing with you.
Awww.
It's OK, it's just a part of life.
Lord Karsus,
I agree. As I said - I know I am in the minority. I don't begrudge WotC for making what sells; they are a corporation after all. Of course, at the same time, I hope that I am not the only person who finds himself more interested in Cormyrian Political Intrigues than uber-epic-high-level-ultra-powerful-sorcererses-who-can-destroy-entire-an-nation-of-wizards-because-she-doesn't-like-them. :P
If you love Cormyrian political intrigue, I don't see why you wouldn't enjoy Ed Greenwood's Knights of Myth Drannor series.
Which is true, but if I make the mistake of telling anyone that I have reduced Elminister to an 8th level Diviner, I get told that he was never a problem, and I suck for missing the whole point of the Realms and that I should have kept him off-screen doing stuff way more important than anything my PCs would get involved in.
Who is saying that? People on the internet? Why do you give a damn what they would say in the first place, if they aren't involved in your game? Do you feel forced to design your Realms around the preferences of total strangers?
But whenever I think of coming back, it's the overwrought reactions from the fans to my changing *anything* that drives me back away, most recently to the Scarred Lands, then Eberron and, this year, Freeport.
See my response above. Not that I'm condoning those who "jump on" people.
Also, is everyone who offers criticism rude and obnoxious? If people politely disagree with you, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Posting anything on a messageboard invites comment (although, you can always say, "Please comment only on the premise I've delineated here, not about my changes to the setting and whether or not you approve of them.")
There are quite a few fantasy novels that incorporate political intrigue and fresh off the farm protagonists, some of which don't also involve uberpowerful ancient evils bent on the destruction of the world.
Like the aforementioned Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy.
Although, will people hate it just because it happens to feature cameos from powerful characters?
Who is saying that? People on the internet? Why do you give a damn what they would say in the first place, if they aren't involved in your game? Do you feel forced to design your Realms around the preferences of total strangers?
A typical example of a response, actually.
If I post a question about something that doesn't fit the preferences of the majority, I get responses that suggest that something is wrong with me, instead of any sort of helpful suggestions.
Instead of, 'Well, you could try making the realms a little grittier by doing X instead of Y, or having the Zhentarim be a more credible organization by having them have bartered their way into heavy behind-the-scenes influence in Sembia,' I get the standard, 'WTH is wrong with you? I hate people like you complaining about Chosen, when you don't have to use them.'
I feel that I have to hide in shame and avoid Realms-centric communities, because they are prone to flipping out and say, 'Well, you don't get it, go away now.' as if this incredible setting is somehow not strong enough and will completely fall apart if someone plays using *some* of it, and not *all* of it. Every third post from some of these people is underhanded snark towards people who don't get their setting. "Well *some* people think the Realms are overly detailed and you can't do anything." It's just snotty, like a bunch of eight year old girls not letting the new kid play with them because she's not wearing the right clothes.
I think the setting is strong enough to survive without the Chosen as presented in the novels, and yet, if I try to use them less than in the most over-the-top of the novels, I get less encouragement from Realms fans and more abuse.
In just about every other setting I've played, fans are welcoming and encouraging and willing to chat about tweaking the setting to suit. In this setting, the response is less, 'Welcome! That's a radical idea!' and more, 'Go away. You don't get it.'
Instead of, 'Well, you could try making the realms a little grittier by doing X instead of Y, or having the Zhentarim be a more credible organization by having them have bartered their way into heavy behind-the-scenes influence in Sembia,' I get the standard, 'WTH is wrong with you? I hate people like you complaining about Chosen, when you don't have to use them.'
Ok... what do the chosen have to do with Sembia? Your taking two seperate arguements, and merging them together. First off, if you are willing to go into specifics of a campaign, and present a problem to the people of these boards, I have seen them be nothing but helpful (well, minus one or two well known trolls). They are a wealth of information and have always been a tremendous help to me as a DM when it comes to lore.
Now if you are spouting off in general about things, (I.E. the chosen are over powered, Mystra sucks, the Realms are too developed, I want to kill Drizzt, etc...), then obviously the people here are going to be less than helpful as your coments could be seen as borderline trolling it's self. If you express your self in an intelligent, articulate manner, then the forumites are inclined to respond in the same way (minus one or two well known trolls).
In regards to this thread, the Simbul has intelligently and thoroughly explained why a common complaint isn't really that big of a problem. No name calling, no insults. Just a very methodical answer to what seems to be a popular complaint. I tend to agree with her. Never once do these people complaining bring a specific scenario to the table. I am sure that if they did, instead of with just a blanket statement, the people would be more helpful.
A typical example of a response, actually.
If I post a question about something that doesn't fit the preferences of the majority, I get responses that suggest that something is wrong with me, instead of any sort of helpful suggestions.
This is typical of almost every forum on the internet. Stop by the World of Warcraft forums sometime, and you'll see the same deal only worse.
I do try to be helpful most times, even when I disagree (usually giving at least an explanation of why I disagree) and I find that many of the people on this board do too. In fact, compared to the WoW forums, the WotC forums are remarkably civil.
(In my experience, it's the "I don't like the Realms at all" crowd who tend to be the ones slinging mud around here... But as with everything on the internet, your mileage may vary.)
Heya,
In fact, compared to the WoW forums, the WotC forums are remarkably civil.
Rofl, what are you smoking? Do you know how many topics I make: AO stats, Shar being pointless, Character interaction, a chosen vs another chosen and so on, that gets thrown down because it is usually a unique question that most people can't answer on the top of their head. So in society, when we don't understand something, we usually toss it out and stop caring. (With the exception of a few topics that I make for fun)
Rofl, what are you smoking? Do you know how many topics I make: AO stats, Shar being pointless, Character interaction, a chosen vs another chosen and so on, that gets thrown down because it is usually a unique question that most people can't answer on the top of their head. So in society, when we don't understand something, we usually toss it out and stop caring. (With the exception of a few topics that I make for fun)
Statting Ao's pointless (stat God... Same thing, it's not possible), Shar's definitely not pointless; she's one of the major godesses and is the original evil godess, Chosen vs. Chosen's also quite pointless, as it's purely hypothetical (and we get a lot of vs threads around here, as you'll know). Your questions aren't unique, mate.
Statting Ao's pointless (stat God... Same thing, it's not possible), Shar's definitely not pointless; she's one of the major godesses and is the original evil godess, Chosen vs. Chosen's also quite pointless, as it's purely hypothetical (and we get a lot of vs threads around here, as you'll know). Your questions aren't unique, mate.
Who the hell are you? Shar is pointless because the fact that she wants everyone dead and AO would not be one to allow this, makes her goals thus pointless. Logic+1
Vs battles are not pointless seeing that the chances of it happening do not take place, so we have concept battles through topics to fill the members curiosity.
AO stats are in fact with a point, he is a being in FR, and all beings have an entity life force. It is also rumored that Mystra made AO look behind him in question of her power, creating a scenario of a threat between to powerful forces. I for one enjoy more powerful beings, rather than some stupid drow swordsman killing a bunch of no name orcs.
Who the hell are you? Shar is pointless because the fact that she wants everyone dead and AO would not be one to allow this, makes her goals thus pointless. Logic+1
Vs battles are not pointless seeing that the chances of it happening do not take place, so we have concept battles through topics to fill the members curiosity.
AO stats are in fact with a point, he is a being in FR, and all beings have an entity life force. It is also rumored that Mystra made AO look behind him in question of her power, creating a scenario of a threat between to powerful forces. I for one enjoy more powerful beings, rather than some stupid drow swordsman killing a bunch of no name orcs.
i'm Khaelieth.
Shar's nihilistic and perhaps insane, but you need someone wanting to destroy the world. She wants to return it to what it was; that's all. Ao still existed back then, why would he be annoyed that things reverted?
Vs. battles are amusing, yes, but pointless. Pointless doesn't mean bad/stupid. i actually enjoy them to a certain extent.
Ao's an entity, he's quite irrelevant; apart from the Godswars, he hasn't intervened. He's just something to explain the ToT. You cannot fight Ao.
And vs battles are only pointless to your perspective because it hasn't yet to happen.
All entities have stats, no matter how strong or weak. AO does have stats, just not yet posted.
The stats could well read.
'Can do whatever the DM feels is appropriate because he's
omnipotent.'All entities have stats, no matter how strong or weak. AO does have stats, just not yet posted.
The stats could well read.
'Can do whatever the DM feels is appropriate because he's
None to less: has stats. Thanks for emphasizing my point, weather you believe it matters or not. The difference in reality is, when you stop believing it, it doesn't go away.
However, the fact I'm illustrating is that not everything needs to be statted out.
Especially not plot devices.
Studies have shown that FR readers buy the brand, not the quality sadly.
Which studies are these?
Of course, that's a situation controllers of properties like the Realms try to obtain, because they own the brands and not the authors. TSR at times left sourcebook authors' names off the front cover; Wizards doesn't do that, but it does like to convert authors' popularity into (more controllable) brands, with RA Salvatore Presents and now Ed Greenwood Presents.
It is sad because it goes counter to how the whole system should work.
Programming readers to think in terms of brand and publisher over author -- look at how ENnie nominees are credited -- is one of the ways the RPG field stunts its own artistic development.
The passion is a huge silver lining with a teensy bit of cloud that might serve to drive some people away.
Anyone criticizing you for adapting the Realms to your own purposes is doing so again the Realms' own spirit.
A typical example of a response, actually.
Rinonalyrna's post wasn't anything like the attitude you went on to describe.
Ed has certainly never described it in terms of the mundane being more common than the magical...
You think? Isn't it bound to be more common? The stuff that gets cut from his work is usually 'mundane': the 'day in a farmer's life' piece from the FRCS, trade information, 'minor' characters in novels, the general whys of things. The Realms was created for sword-and-sorcery fiction (more than high fantasy) and play, not kitchen-sink narratives, but it goes to great lengths to anchor that magic in a real-seeming world. Constant flash is like eating pudding all day; the published Realms exaggerates the flash, no question.
. . . and I'm kind of trying to get to bed at the moment so I'm not going to go check my 1st Ed PHB which is on a shelf in another room...
You're right about 1E psionics (and Elminster's certainly can't be classed as a power thing, being minor abilities, less potent than his spells, which he rarely uses).
Programming readers to think in terms of brand and publisher over author -- look at how ENnie nominees are credited -- is one of the ways the RPG field stunts its own artistic development.
There is no doubt about that!
You think? Isn't it bound to be more common? The stuff that gets cut from his work is usually 'mundane': the 'day in a farmer's life' piece from the FRCS, trade information, 'minor' characters in novels, the general whys of things. The Realms was created for sword-and-sorcery fiction (more than high fantasy) and play, not kitchen-sink narratives, but it goes to great lengths to anchor that magic in a real-seeming world. Constant flash is like eating pudding all day; the published Realms exaggerates the flash, no question.
Also true. The mundane stuff is still there. It just isn't presented and we get a lopsided view of the world. Ed really has put a lot of work into making the world seem real and vibrant, and he deserves a lot of credit for that. Ed and I may disagree on some aspects (for example he has a tendency to create overly powerful NPC's in ways that are completely unnecessary), but on others we are of the same mind. Ed cares just as much for the simple farmer as he does Elminster, and I think if given the opportunity he'd probably much rather talk more about the mundane things than the extraordinary.
The problem that I see is that because the majority of what we see is the fantastical and extraordinary we lack a proper perspective in which to judge the Realm's. On the one hand it's understandable - PC's are made to stand out - they are the exceptions to the rule. Then on the other hand, when they are placed against a backdrop of uber epic NPC's all over the place, mid-to-high level NPC's dotting every street corner, and the like they end up blending in more than standing out. They no longer become the exceptions but the rule.
I think most people who have problems with epic level characters is because of their abundance. The Chosen are picked on because they are the most visible, but in truth they are only the tip of the iceberg.
After all, does Elminster REALLY need to be an epic level character? What purpose does that serve? Why can't he accomplish the same goals as a level 18 - level 16 - level 12 - Chosen of Mystra? How would that diminish his accomplishments or his character? Why does the Simbul (according to Ed) need the power to destroy all of Thay? What purpose does that serve to the setting?
In a world where the vast majority of NPC's are level 1, does every Chosen of Mystra REALLY need to be epic in order to carry out their duties?
Additionally, epic characters are supposed to be unique and rare. They are supposed to be special. The Chosen of Mystra are not seen as special because their numbers constantly grow. It reminds me of something my mother used to tell me (tongue in cheek): "Of course you're special. You're special just like everyone else."
Why does every major novel need to have an Epic or near-Epic protagonist? How exactly does that enhance the setting? What purpose does that serve? None, as far as I can tell, and in the long run it is my opinion that it is this line of thought that has ultimately brought us to 4th Edition.
Now, no longer will anything be mundane. Everything is magical and special. There is fantastical-ness around every corner. Even the landscape itself needs to be fantastical and magical. It is no longer good enough for a castle to be built on a hill - no! It must be built on a hill that floats!
All of this in turn has caused me to question what exactly a level 1 PC will look like in FR. At the rate things are going, even the common people of Faerun will be hurling around Epic and High Magic just to keep themselves safe from the next Tear of Selune that happens to fall on their heads.
A typical example of a response, actually.
Excuse me? I did offer you a suggestion. Did you see it? Of course, you only quoted part of what I said (and by the way, I stand by that part--I was being blunt, but I meant no harm). And perhaps part of the problem is your own attitude, if you are prone to making snarky comments at people like that!
If you're going to be flippant towards me, then I'm done talking to you. I will NOT accept your implying that I'm one of "those people" who don't try to help others. That is utter nonsense, and I'm not going to waste my time with it. I was cautiously enjoying this discussion, but maybe I'll consider moving on.
Rinonalyrna's post wasn't anything like the attitude you went on to describe.
Thank you.
Ed cares just as much for the simple farmer as he does Elminster, and I think if given the opportunity he'd probably much rather talk more about the mundane things than the extraordinary.
I think so too.
Additionally, epic characters are supposed to be unique and rare. They are supposed to be special. The Chosen of Mystra are not seen as special because their numbers constantly grow.
Err, they do?
I've been a fan for a good 7-8 years now, and I haven't seen any new Chosen of Mystra introduced in the published setting in all that time.
Why does every major novel need to have an Epic or near-Epic protagonist? How exactly does that enhance the setting? What purpose does that serve? None, as far as I can tell, and in the long run it is my opinion that it is this line of thought that has ultimately brought us to 4th Edition.
Well, what is a "major novel"? If you are talking about the RSE trilogies, a lot of the protagonists are pretty powerful and experienced, but not necessarily epic. The Year of Rogue Dragons trilogy took a lot of flack for featuring many "bizarre" heroes, but in spite of their exotic nature, they weren't really that powerful. I remember in the first book, the party cleric hadn't yet learned the "flame strike" spell, which put him at level 8 at the most. And I don't recall that the characters grew in power exponentially in that series, either.
PC #1: Ok, now we've learned about the orc horde about to attack this unsuspecting village. Now we have to figure out a way to stop them!
PC #2: No need.
PC #1: Um... Excuse me?
PC #2: I said that there is no need for us to do anything.
PC #1: But the people! If we don't do something, the village will be destroyed. Innocent lives will be lost!
PC #2: No they won't.
PC #1: But we know that the Orcs are going to attack!
PC #2: Yes we do.
PC #1: I don't understand....
PC #2: Well it's quite simple. This is the Realms. You can't go anywhere without running into some insanely high level do gooder type. Heck, you can't even go into a major city without tripping over one chosen or another. So you see, we are immaterial at this point. Some uberly powerful good samaritan is bound to come along and put a stop to it. There is absolutley nothing more for us to do, but go up on that hill over there and watch the show. We'd just be in the way if we tried to help.
PC #1: I don't know... what if...
PC #2: None sense! Come on, it will be fun to see some real pro's in action.
:: they go up the hill and wait::
PC #1: The Orcs! I see them!
PC #2: Great! Any minute now, Elminister or the Simbul will show up, and blast the entire horde to smithereens with a single spell!
PC #1: The people have spotted them! The towns in panic! We got to help them!
PC #2: They are simply building up the suspence.
PC #1: Some of the villagers are putting up some resistance, but they are going to be cut down!
PC #2: Any second now!
:: they watch as the entire population is slaughtered, and the village raised to the ground::
PC #2: Ok... new plan. We high tail it out of here, and speak of this to no one.
PC #1: I'm no longer lawful good, am I?
Here's the Final Word thread.
Err, they do?
I've been a fan for a good 7-8 years now, and I haven't seen any new Chosen of Mystra introduced in the published setting in all that time.
Alvaerele Tasundrym the "Silent Chosen" doesn't count? She was introduced in the Blackstaff Novel.
Although, to be truthful I wasn't really referring to her in particular. I was talking about the sheer number of Mystra's Chosen. Then I compare that to the fact that every other deity likely has Chosen as well, and the fact that it's been stated that Mystra has an "unknown" number of other Chosen that we just haven't heard about. (Which could mean she has anywhere between five to hundreds more.) Then it could be considered that the same applies to other deities... see where I'm going with this?
Being Chosen ceases to be special when I can count over 40 KNOWN Chosen (and I think I am missing some) in the Realm's so far, and those are just a handful of deities. All of these folks are epic or near epic, and many only play minor roles - some of them are virtually unheard of - but they still exist.
I really don't even think it's a debatable fact that there is some type of epic fetish when it comes to the Realms. Over the top uber characters seem to be a rather standard thing with novel authors, and if those uber characters can be turned into Chosen of a deity all the better it seems.
What I am asking is this -
A) Is it necessary to have so many Chosen be they of Mystra or any other deity (indeed, is it even necessary to have Chosen at all, what ever happened to good old normal clerics and normal faithful and such)?
B) Is it necessary for every single Chosen to be Epic or Near Epic in level? Would it diminish Elminster - either in character or status - would it interfere with his duties - to turn him into a level 18 Wizard? I don't think so. So why is it important for him to be Epic? What purpose does it serve? If there isn't a good reason to make an NPC epic then why make them epic in the first place?
Alvaerele Tasundrym the "Silent Chosen" doesn't count? She was introduced in the Blackstaff Novel.
-No she wasn't. The Silent Chosen existed before the novel was written. She was mentioned in the Secrets of the Magister 2e sourcebook, I believe.
A) Is it necessary to have so many Chosen be they of Mystra or any other deity (indeed, is it even necessary to have Chosen at all, what ever happened to good old normal clerics and normal faithful and such)?
-Why wouldn't a deity want a specifically chosen servitor to be his/her/it's "mouth", handling specific tasks, guiding worshippers, and so on?
B) Is it necessary for every single Chosen to be Epic or Near Epic in level?
-Well, would you invest so much time and energy into a servitor that doesn't stand a chance against a Bugbear? That's a little extreme, but I'm sure you get the point I'm making.
Then I compare that to the fact that every other deity likely has Chosen as well
That I would super disagree with.
I'd wager that the Lessers have Lesser Proxies at best, and the Demipowers MIGHT have a Proxy, Lesser or Temporary.
I for one, have grown to dislike you just for reading the few lines you wrote in this thread. Lose the attitude and I'm sure you'll get better responses.
Bonzai, I laughed out loud. Priceless.
No she wasn't. The Silent Chosen existed before the novel was written. She was mentioned in the Secrets of the Magister 2e sourcebook, I believe.
Ah, I wasn't aware of that. I've only heard her referenced in regard to the Blackstaff Novel. In any event, the point I made about there being an unknown and unlimited number of Chosen of Mystra out there that we just don't know about still stands.
Why wouldn't a deity want a specifically chosen servitor to be his/her/it's "mouth", handling specific tasks, guiding worshippers, and so on?
Last time I checked that's why deities had priests and clerics. Sure, some deities might have a "pope" like figure - such as Bane - but that is only because the deity would be lawful in nature. Furthermore, the individual would still most likely be a priest even if they multi-classed in other levels.
Well, would you invest so much time and energy into a servitor that doesn't stand a chance against a Bugbear? That's a little extreme, but I'm sure you get the point I'm making.
Why do deities have clerics that aren't all epic in level? Why do they give divine power to individuals who can die to common thugs on the street?
Again, the concept of clerics and priests make the concept of Chosen irrelevant. A deity doesn't -need- epic-super powered individuals doing their own thing in the name of their deity. Last time I checked, a Chosen (at least Mystra's Chosen) wasn't bound to their deity in the same way as a priest and therefore are given a lot more freedom in what they do.
That I would super disagree with.
I'd wager that the Lessers have Lesser Proxies at best, and the Demipowers MIGHT have a Proxy, Lesser or Temporary.
I would super disagree with it as well if it wasn't true. The fact is because the lesser deities and demipowers get less play we just don't know if they have Chosen or not. However, do you want to place a bet that if a demipower got attention from a novel author that they'd also get a Chosen (if not immediately then eventually)?
Just some examples: Eldath is a lesser power who has two or three Chosen, Deneir is likewise a lesser power with one chosen, though she had two but the other died. Labelas Enoreth and Mielikki are lesser deities and have anywhere between four or five Chosen between them. Ubtao though a greater God is a rival to Mystra herself when it comes to Chosen - with six or seven Chosen. Mask has something like three or four Chosen.
So on and so forth, and it is important to keep in mind that the whole concept of Chosen to begin with started with Mystra and the point was for them to house her divine power within them incase something should happen.
Chosen are similarly transparent to play: you have to think hard to find situations in which secret statuses, motivations and powers would even be known to PCs. (No, only Mystra has true Chosen, and every deity doesn't have the 2E-proxies mistakenly given the title; and Mystra's Chosen are certainly gravely constrained in their actions.) And indeed in all these discussions I've almost never read a case in which these things had any play effect at all, and I think that's really the bottom line.
I think most people who have problems with epic level characters is because of their abundance.
Most haven't even considered how (un)abundant they are, relative to land and population.
I really don't even think it's a debatable fact that there is some type of epic fetish when it comes to the Realms. Over the top uber characters seem to be a rather standard thing with novel authors, and if those uber characters can be turned into Chosen of a deity all the better it seems.
You're conflating different phenomena: powerful characters of Ed's, TSR's unfortunate foregrounding of some of them, certain authors' tendency to fall into an arms race, certain book editors' preferences and requests, and not least the tendency of certain fans to (like in-world villains) fixate on 'power' above all the other far more important and interesting concerns, and then project that fixation back onto Ed (of all people) and the other designers.
(indeed, is it even necessary to have Chosen at all, what ever happened to good old normal clerics and normal faithful and such)?
Necessary, no. Cosmologically and dramatically interesting as a literary device, yes. Nothing happened to the priesthoods: in the setting, they're far more important than Chosen and such. In the publishing line, TSR and Wizards consistently underrepresented one and overrepresented the other. This is not a hard distinction to understand.
Is it necessary for every single Chosen to be Epic or Near Epic in level?
It's neither necessary or, in my view, the least bit important.
Meldread, that wasn't what your original statement said: you said that all deities had Chosen, not that all deities could have Chosen if authors wanted them to.
(The bold emphases is mine.)
That's not what I said. :P
Then I compare that to the fact that every other deity likely has Chosen as well...
I didn't say that they did, but rather that they likely had Chosen, which is to say that we don't know if they do or do not yet. This is because, as I also said above, Realms authors have yet to really embrace the lesser and demipowers. If they did, I am rather certain (and I am pretty sure you'll agree with this fact) that if those deities started getting major attention they'd get Chosen of their own as well.
Which as I pointed out previously, causes the role of Chosen to be diminished. If a Chosen is supposed to be special it's hard to be special when you're just one of many, possibly even an unlimited number.
I then went on to point out that the whole concept of Chosen is redundant when they are filling the role that any priest or cleric of a deity should be filling. Why does Mystra need Chosen to spread magic around? What are her Cleric's doing? What is the point of Mask having Chosen?
As I said above, it reminds me of something my mother used to tell me. Whenever I wanted something, and she'd refuse me, I'd plead with her and in a joking manor I'd say something like: "Awww, come on. Aren't I special?" And she'd reply: "Of course you're special. You're special just like everyone else."
Realms Authors want their characters to be special so they make them Chosen, but in the process they make them special... just like everyone else.
To make matters worse they end up diminishing the role of a deities clergy, by essentially saying: Sure, you guys are important, but you see... umm... this other guy I just happen to think he is even more important and special than you. So he gets cool uber powers that you do not get. Sorry. All those years of loyal service and converts don't make you worthy enough for the gifts I've given this (seemingly in some cases) random shmuck.
The listed levels are largely transparent both to Realmslore and play, except as a rough guide to who overmatches who.
Sure, they're transparent. Until you try and figure out what type of impact a certain Epic level NPC happens to have on a given region. The more powerful you are the larger the impact you (normally) have. The way you acquire power is through actions, and those actions lend you a reputation, and that reputation lends to you certain benefits, abilities and disadvantage, so on and so forth. There is interconnectedness involved.
Unless said powerful NPC is a hermit who has taken steps to conceal their identity, and move to a location where their reputation is mostly unknown... well... they SHOULD have an impact. That isn't even taking into consideration extra planar or dimensional beings that an epic level NPC has ticked off or the deeds of a epic level villain finally catching up with him as a group of revenge seekers rolls into town.
As a DM you COULD ignore all of that, and if that is the case and they are meant to be ignored, then why add them at all? In that case they become redundant and take up space that could otherwise be used for more useful and beneficial things.
NPCs need stats as and when they clash directly with PCs, and should stay mysterious till and after they do.
That isn't necessarily the case. Elminster doesn't need stats at all. If players clash with him, all the DM needs to know is that Elminster should be at least X amount of a CR above what the party could normally handle. There is no need for stats and it ensures that Elminster is always a challenge no matter the encounter, and unless prepared for it the party will likely get their butts handed to them.
Chosen are similarly transparent to play: you have to think hard to find situations in which secret statuses, motivations and powers would even be known to PCs. ...
And indeed in all these discussions I've almost never read a case in which these things had any play effect at all. They're literary devices which are fun to read about.
Well, being 'fun to read about' is subjective. To each their own. However, to say that they don't have an impact is to ignore the result they've had on the setting.
Go around to a non-Realm's forum and talk to people who are familiar with the Realm's but don't want to play a game in the Realm's. Ask them why and listen to what they have to say. Almost invariably they'll say something like: The Realms has too many epic level characters.
As I said several pages back, what is being battled here is perception. It does not matter, as you said:
Most haven't even considered how (un)abundant they are, relative to land and population.
Those are the NPC's that get focused upon. That is what people become familiar with and that is what they associate with the Realm's. Now ask yourself what happens as a result.
Those who read the novels and learn about the game decide that they want to play a game of D&D set in the Realm's. What type of characters do they want to play? Do they want to play level 1 Adventurers? No way! They want to play Drizzt. They want to play Elminster. If not clones of those characters then at least imitations in terms of power. They want to be the heroes like they read about in the books.
Now, look at how this effects you and all of us. Look at 4th Edition Realm's. Understand that we here are in the minority and that WotC is looking at their overall fan base. If those people who read the novels come to the Realm's wanting to play uber characters, then hey - it makes sense to make the Realm's accommodating to their play style right?
So they make PC's more powerful. They make the world more fantastical. They create an edition of D&D where it's fully expected that EVERY character will become an Epic character and furthermore will be able to challenge the gods themselves. In effect, every PC will eventually have the ability to become a Chosen type character with power to rival that of Elminster.
Now, as a result, a setting that was for the most part designed to be a standard sword and sorcery setting with heroes and villains and the like is now a uber high fantasy setting. They'd had to modify the setting in order to fit the perception created by those reading the novels and wanting to play.
All of these problems are not independent but are interconnected. One problem is the direct cause of another.
If novel authors began writing about non-character class characters that would for all intents and purposes be level 1 or similarly low level, perceptions about the Realm's would again shift as the uber epic characters faded into the background.
It's neither necessary or, in my view, the least bit important.
It is obvious that you and I both have different concepts of what Epic means. Epic is reserved for those who are well... Epic. An Epic Character is practically a demi-god for all intents and purposes, who is restrained only by higher powers outside of the Realms or a bunch of lesser powers within the setting.
When a player becomes Epic, IMO, they aren't meant to remain in the Realm's. Their adventures take on a much broader scope. They end up on the planes. Thus, FR might have produced thousands of epic NPC's but none of them would be chilling out (or even have a house in) Shadowdale. They'd be chilling out in their own demiplane concerned with threats that most common folk cannot even comprehend, fending off demonic invasions and the like. They aren't focused on the little things that happen on Toril simply because they rarely ever visit Toril. It's hard to be concerned about something that you aren't even aware is taking place and there are more pressing matters to tend to - like say, a Demon Lord suddenly awakening that could threaten multiple worlds that you need to find a way to put back to sleep.
And on an even more important note, no one can blame those players who come to D&D wanting to imitate the characters they read about. D&D is designed with the intention of making the PC's extraordinary and important figures in the world. They are supposed to be "special", and as I said in my previous post, it's hard to be "special" when you're "special just like everyone else". Which therefore goes back to my whole point of perceptions and how it is (has?) ruined the Realms.
'Epic' is a buzzword the 3E designers gave to levels above 20. The Epic Level Handbook's characterization of those levels, as you describe it (I haven't read it recently or thoroughly) doesn't with any consistency fit characters in any of TSR's worlds who were put above 20th level in late 2E, so I never took that characterization seriously outside the 3E Greyhawk Light default setting and may well have underestimated the factor of those that did. (On the other hand, many high-level Realms characters are indeed involved in doings that reach far beyond Toril, a fact often ignored in this kind of thread.)
I don't quarrel with your general account, except that I don't know what the minorities or majorities are. Almost all of us failed to anticipate that Wizards would reconsider and refabricate the 4E Realms so unprecedentedly freely. It makes the long-term mishandling of the setting, which I've criticized consistently for several years, all the sadder.
Alvaerele Tasundrym the "Silent Chosen" doesn't count? She was introduced in the Blackstaff Novel.
As has been said already, she is not new. You are talking about the first time she made an appearance in a novel--she certainly did not originate in said novel.
A) Is it necessary to have so many Chosen be they of Mystra or any other deity (indeed, is it even necessary to have Chosen at all, what ever happened to good old normal clerics and normal faithful and such)?
Well, there is a reason for Mystra to have Chosen. As for Chosen of other gods, I gave my opinion about that already.
But I'm not the one in charge of WotC's design decisions for the Realms. Neither is anyone else here.
B) Is it necessary for every single Chosen to be Epic or Near Epic in level?
No...and they are not all of super-high level. There could be a level 1 Chosen of Mystra if that is what the goddess wanted.
Last time I checked, a Chosen (at least Mystra's Chosen) wasn't bound to their deity in the same way as a priest and therefore are given a lot more freedom in what they do.
Their portrayal in Greenwood's fiction suggests the opposite.
Why does Mystra need Chosen to spread magic around?
Mystra needs Chosen because they act as a "friendly" check on her power. She has to make Chosen by the decree of AO (IIRC); she doesn't make Chosen just because she takes a shining to some people and decides to give them extra powers.
They don't answer to a Church hierarchy, they get bullied around by their God himself/herself.
Elminster is basically Mystra's Moses. He sits around until she appears and tells him to go free the Thayan slaves.
Go around to a non-Realm's forum and talk to people who are familiar with the Realm's but don't want to play a game in the Realm's. Ask them why and listen to what they have to say. Almost invariably they'll say something like: The Realms has too many epic level characters.
As I said several pages back, what is being battled here is perception.
*laughs* Yeah, sure, those are comments I'd have to search around long and hard for, as I've NEVER EVER seen any such opinions expressed here!
Seriously. Everyone has an opinion. I think everyone here is aware that not everyone likes the Realms, and we all know some of the reasons why. I know I do.
And the thing is, I couldn't care less. I love the setting, and the epic level characters, and that is enough for me.
Why do deities have clerics that aren't all epic in level? Why do they give divine power to individuals who can die to common thugs on the street?
Again, the concept of clerics and priests make the concept of Chosen irrelevant. A deity doesn't -need- epic-super powered individuals doing their own thing in the name of their deity. Last time I checked, a Chosen (at least Mystra's Chosen) wasn't bound to their deity in the same way as a priest and therefore are given a lot more freedom in what they do.
-That's precisely why: they are not beholden to "the establishment". Being a high ranking church official comes is a political position, as well as a rank within the church. Politics being what it is, oftentimes a political leader has his/her arms tied, because of politics, that prevents them from doing things they would like. Thus, Chosen can operate without all of the red-tape.
Mask has something like three or four Chosen.
-At least five, possibly six, or even Seven. Cale and Riven are the First and Second of Five. This may or may not include Kesson Rel/Volumvox, or Avner of Heartsdale.
All of these problems are not independent but are interconnected. One problem is the direct cause of another.
I see the argument you are trying to make, but I'd need to see proof (not conjecture) before I would accept it as a fact.
I'm aware of the roles Mystra's Chosen were designed to play. They were designed to hold fragments of her power. That's not my point. :P
My point is that:
1) She has more Chosen than necessary.
2) Most of them are more powerful than necessary.
3) Other gods were given Chosen because of the popularity of Mystra's Chosen, and because novel authors wanted their creations to be equally powerful/fantastical/'kewl'/whatever.
4) The result of all this has a direct impact on us re: 4th Edition.
Just take a step back for a moment and try and think about things objectively. Forget everything you know about the Forgotten Realm's. All of the lore you know is irrelevant. In fact, you don't know anything about D&D aside from the fact that it's a role-playing game and that its something similar to 'acting'.
However, at the same time, you are a big fan of the Forgotten Realms. You buy all the novels. You could spend hours detailing all of Drizzt's Adventures. You can name all of Mystra's Chosen. Elminster and Drizzt to you are epic heroes that kick a lot of ass. In effect, they're 'kewl'.
Your friend, who is equally enthusiastic about the Realms, picks up the FRCS wanting to know more 'lore' about his favorite setting. He then learns about this game called 'D&D' so he goes to Google to learn more, and decides to buy the Dungeon Master's Guide and Players Handbook and everything required to play. He then invites you over along with some other friends who have an interest in the Realms. He goes over the rules with them and tries to familiarize everyone with the concepts. All of these people are between the ages of 12 and 16.
Finally, he gives everyone a copy of the character sheet and they begin building their characters. What type of characters do you think they want to build? Do they want to build a level 1 D&D Character, a character that struggles against goblins? Or do they want to create the next Drizzt or Elminster?
The answer should be obvious, and it should also be obvious that WotC is targeting these people with the new Realm's.
The Realms as we currently know it was NOT designed to be a High Fantasy Setting. However, over time, primarily due to the novels and various other influences, that's what the Realms has morphed into. Now WotC is taking it to the next level. They are remaking the Realms so that it becomes the setting that it advertises itself as - now you can battle gods and become the next Elminster. Why worry with more traditional adventures when you can stop demonic invasions, resurrect Mystra and become her next Chosen.
I'm not knocking the novels. As stand alone stories they could be a nice read. I'm not even knocking that style of play. In fact, right now, I'm about to begin playing in a PbP Game where I am level 5 with an ECL of at least 15 (I'm guessing I didn't bother to check). I even made up my own class and given my character about 15 supernatural abilities. However, that's fine - that's the type of game I'm about to play in - and it isn't set in the Realms.
The problem - and what I am attacking here - is the perception created by the novels that has (negatively in my opinion) impacted the Realms. It is not WotC's fault per-say, it is something that stretches all the way back to TSR, and it is a problem that has built up over time.
This is why I have lamented over the novels being made cannon. It's why I've suggested and tried to encourage novels that deal with "common" people. It's why I have constantly and continuously spoken out again and again every time a RSE takes place or a new epic character is introduced into the setting. It is all of those combined consequences that is ultimately responsible for delivering to us 4th Edition. It is virtually impossible not to be able to connect the dots.
So, to bring this discussion full circle. The problem is not any individual Chosen of Mystra, it is all of them combined, and then added to the other combined Chosen of other deities, then multiplied by all the RSE's that take place. The setting has been going down this path since right before the ToT and things have only continued to go further downhill ever since.
That's precisely why: they are not beholden to "the establishment". Being a high ranking church official comes is a political position, as well as a rank within the church. Politics being what it is, oftentimes a political leader has his/her arms tied, because of politics, that prevents them from doing things they would like. Thus, Chosen can operate without all of the red-tape.
That's not entirely the case. There are plenty of Clerics who are... shall we say... somewhat "free agents". That's pretty much what every PC Cleric created is - it's not like they spend a whole lot of time at the shrine / temple unless they happen to be in the area. They're on the move doing the work of their god as they go. An 'adventuring' Cleric of Mystra goes out, deals with those who give magic a bad reputation, teaches magic (and how to properly use it) to any who wants to learn, and all that good stuff. Mystra's Chosen exist to house part of her power. Fine. Why couldn't that extra power just be stored in a number of hidden artifacts? Why does a mortal even have to be trusted with that power at all? Why can't Mystra share her power with other deities - such as Selune? Poor Selune needed a little bit of juice, and what's more sharing the power with an ally god is a lot less risky than sharing it with a mortal who might get caught / captured / used against you. All of the other duties of the Chosen of Mystra are performed by her clergy.
Of course, let's just ignore Mystra's Chosen for sake of argument. What about all the other Chosen of the other deities? What is the point of them?
-At least five, possibly six, or even Seven. Cale and Riven are the First and Second of Five. This may or may not include Kesson Rel/Volumvox, or Avner of Heartsdale.
:raincloudThat is why I feel all the hype about how the new Realms fixes all the problems of the old to be ... well, mostly male bovine excrement.
Of course, let's just ignore Mystra's Chosen for sake of argument. What about all the other Chosen of the other deities? What is the point of them?
Uhhh, villains and plot hooks?
Why use a Chosen of Deneir? Because it sounds cool when he asks you to do
more than being ordered around by Joe Bob Wilcox the Priest of Deneir.Why use a Chosen of Deneir? Because it sounds cool when he asks you to do
Actually, I thought "Joe Bob Wilcox" sounded cooler.
OK, it's late. I'll be back to this thread when I can, though. Good night all!
That's not entirely the case. There are plenty of Clerics who are... shall we say... somewhat "free agents". That's pretty much what every PC Cleric created is - it's not like they spend a whole lot of time at the shrine / temple unless they happen to be in the area. They're on the move doing the work of their god as they go.
-This is not always the case. A campaign I was in- that, thankfully, didn't last long- had the DM make the party Cleric 'cloistered'. He was assigned a specific church, and wasn't allowed to leave it very much. Come to think of it, the campaign fell apart so quickly that the PC cleric never actually left his temple, I don't think. Heh.
All of the other duties of the Chosen of Mystra are performed by her clergy.
-Not all of them. A sizeable portion? Sure, perhaps. All of them? No, certainly not.
Of course, let's just ignore Mystra's Chosen for sake of argument. What about all the other Chosen of the other deities? What is the point of them?
-Same role, more or less. This is exactly what 2e Proxies were, and in 3e, Proxies and Chosen have all been melded together (which is a good thing, mind you). They exist to further the goals of the specific creator deity, plain and simple.
Why does a mortal even have to be trusted with that power at all?
Ao said so (I'd assume it was a mortal because giving it to other gods is a bit risky - Mystra can't take the power back herself, after all, so it's like handing over the "keys to the kingdom", to say nothing of the amount of control over magic that the god would suddenly possess).
And Chosen have numerous other tasks than just housing divine power. They run around setting up magical caches for adventurers to find, to choose one example. Spreading magic, in other words (which Mystra wants them to do). A god would be much, much more limited in their ability to do that.
Poor Selune needed a little bit of juice, and what's more sharing the power with an ally god is a lot less risky than sharing it with a mortal who might get caught / captured / used against you.
Ed Greenwood on mortals being "used against" Mystra by other gods:
"It'd against Bane's essential nature to relinquish anything, and the sacrifice is not a choice available to him: he CAN'T 'seize' the portions of Mystra's essence within each Chosen, or strip them of their Chosen status.
He can destroy them, in direct combat, if he manages to catch them in the right situation. However, note that 'right situation' phrase. All of the present Chosen are well-versed in the Weave, and can 'flee through it'. If Bane tries to hunt them down and destroy them through the Weave, he'll do so much damage to it and to his own control over magic that it will rapidly become apparent to him just how much 'not worth it' destroying any of the Chosen is."
"Shadovar, Bane cannot succeed in becoming Tyrant of the Weave. The Chosen won't accept him, and he can't remove their powers. He can destroy them, if he attempts their destructions in the right manner. Azuth will resist him utterly (he's god of spellcasters who achieve mastery over magic through their experimentations and research, and can't accept a tyrant who would end or attempt to control the process) but 'rebel' is the wrong word, because Bane won't be 'the new god of magic'."
Ao said so (I'd assume it was a mortal because giving it to other gods is a bit risky - Mystra can't take the power back herself, after all, so it's like handing over the "keys to the kingdom", to say nothing of the amount of control over magic that the god would suddenly possess).
...and it worked out rather well, didn't it? :P
They run around setting up magical caches for adventurers to find, to choose one example.
Her priests can't do that?
Spreading magic, in other words (which Mystra wants them to do).
Again, her priests can't do that?
Ed Greenwood on mortals being "used against" Mystra by other gods:
All of that is pretty irrelevant. It deals with Bane and Bane has never been a threat to Mystra. Her two biggest threats since her ascension, have been Shar and Cyric and to a lesser degree Talos (who wanted to get the portfolio of wild and destructive magic). Cyric and Talos certainly would be vulnerable to those risks, but Shar is immune to them due to the Shadow Weave. She could careless if the Weave unravels... and it did.
This is not always the case. A campaign I was in- that, thankfully, didn't last long- had the DM make the party Cleric 'cloistered'. He was assigned a specific church, and wasn't allowed to leave it very much. Come to think of it, the campaign fell apart so quickly that the PC cleric never actually left his temple, I don't think. Heh.
Well, I've never played such a restricted game before though I have had campaigns set in small localized areas - mostly one city and its surrounding region. However, there are a lot of wandering clerics in Faerun. Every village can't afford to have a church, temple or shrine. A deities power comes through worship thus its necessary to send out clergy to spread the faith. Plus there needs to be an arm of the church to deal with certain problems... certain problems that the Chosen happen to also like to deal with. -Not all of them. A sizeable portion? Sure, perhaps. All of them? No, certainly not.
I encourage you to make a list of five things Mask's Chosen perform that their Clergies could not either directly or indirectly through traditional allies of the Church.
All of that is pretty irrelevant. It deals with Bane and Bane has never been a I encourage you to make a list of five things Mask's Chosen perform that their Clergies could not either directly or indirectly through traditional allies of the Church.
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1. Currently they are assigned to kill Kesson Rell, and take back some of Masks power that he stole. Could an average cleric of Mask accomplish that? Nope. You need the best of the best. And even that might not be enough, so he gives them a little something extra to even the odds.
2. Cale was never brought up in the clergy. His clerical prowess was entirely self taught. Thus he is a free thinker, and not limited to the doctrine organized religion espouses. Many of his thoughts are considered blasphemous to a standard cleric (let alone sticking a knife into his gods ribs). This means that he thinks out side the box, which is valuable to Mask.
3. If your going to go toe to toe with thousand year old shade princes that are the favored of Shar, you might need something a little more durable than a purely mortal follower. So he boosts them with a little divine power.
4. Being a morally ambiguous and slightly chaotic God, you tend to have followers that are the same way. People you really can't trust. Therefore you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. You want them competing with each other, not you. You also want them to know that there are two or three of them to bring them down if one goes rogue.
5. The plot has not entirely unfurled yet. Mask has plans withing plans, and is a master manipulator. He has some definite purpose in mind for Cale and Riven, and it goes beyond the Kesson Rell thing. The stage is simply being set. Stealing the Temple from Cyric, thwarting some, but not all of Shar's plans... Something is afoot.
2. Cale was never brought up in the clergy. His clerical prowess was entirely self taught. Thus he is a free thinker, and not limited to the doctrine organized religion espouses. Many of his thoughts are considered blasphemous to a standard cleric (let alone sticking a knife into his gods ribs). This means that he thinks out side the box, which is valuable to Mask.
3. If your going to go toe to toe with thousand year old shade princes that are the favored of Shar, you might need something a little more durable than a purely mortal follower. So he boosts them with a little divine power.
4. Being a morally ambiguous and slightly chaotic God, you tend to have followers that are the same way. People you really can't trust. Therefore you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. You want them competing with each other, not you. You also want them to know that there are two or three of them to bring them down if one goes rogue.
5. The plot has not entirely unfurled yet. Mask has plans withing plans, and is a master manipulator. He has some definite purpose in mind for Cale and Riven, and it goes beyond the Kesson Rell thing. The stage is simply being set. Stealing the Temple from Cyric, thwarting some, but not all of Shar's plans... Something is afoot.
...and it worked out rather well, didn't it?
What, Mystra placing part of her power in the hands of mortals on Ao's orders? Yes, of course it worked. I don't see where it doesn't work.
Her priests can't do that?
Again, her priests can't do that?
Her priests (by all logic, if they're following the doctrine of Mystra's church) do do that, at least some of the time. But Chosen, as noted, aren't limited by the rules of the clergy. And they have another purpose that priests don't - to provide checks and balances to Mystra's power. They can also serve as anchors for the Weave in the event that something damages it or Mystra while Azuth drops everything to go to work on maintaining it (conveniently forgotten by WotC), they can restore dead magic zones and fix problems with the Weave that Mystra's clergy can't (as I'm sure you're aware, members of Mystra's clergy don't have access to silver fire), they research new magic and then disseminate it, and other things besides that I don't recall off the top of my head.
Mystra's Chosen do Mystra's bidding, much like Mask's Chosen do Mask's bidding, Deneir's does Deneir's bidding. They exist to do things that the ordinary clergy can't.
Can her priests do some things? Yes. Can they do everything that a Chosen is required to do? No, which is why Mystra has Chosen.
All of that is pretty irrelevant.
Were you reading the same quote? It deals with exactly one thing: a hostile force (Bane, in the example) attempting to use Mystra's Chosen against her, and why it would fail. You can quite easily substitute in Cyric or Talos in place of Bane, and I don't see what the issue with Shar is. Just because she can use the Shadow Weave doesn't mean she will be any more able to forcibly remove the silver fire from a Chosen.
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Okay, first of all I am going to point out: I have not read the Cale books. As I have pointed out previously, I avoid reading Realm's novels for a number of reasons. First, I refuse to give money to support novels being turned into cannon, which subsequently ruin the setting. Second, most of what is written just isn't my type of thing, though I realize others might enjoy it (more power to them). Third, I really don't want what I read to turn me off to the Realms or 'taint' my view of the setting and force me to walk away in disgust. That being said, I am mostly familiar with the trilogy and what happens in them, because I keep up to date through second hand informants.
With that out of the way, let me say - none of those things qualifies someone for Chosen status. Fzoul could possibly qualify because he follows a Lawful Deity who has a strict Hierarchy in his Church so he's sort of like a 'Pope' type figure. I'd even let Cadderly slide for the reasons you mentioned, though neither of them need to be particularly high level or epic characters. Plus, they're both mostly Clerics which is always a bonus when receiving divine power.
However, to focus on the above...
- Basically the whole thrust of the argument that you put forward is that Mask has elevated some folks to a very high status among his faithful, ignored his priests, all because he wanted someone whacked. So he invested some folks (in this case Cale and some others) with bits of his divine power, into people he freely admits he can't trust, in people he has no control over unlike his clergy who depend on him for their divine spells, and that over all he's decided to toss the dice and hope for the best. Did I sum it up? :P
- In the process of doing that he's told his Epic Clerics this: "You know, you guys... well... I think you are pretty worthless. So I'm going to elevate these other schmucks to positions of power you'd sacrifice your own mothers to... well... I guess you'd sacrifice them to me... but you'd kill them just for a taste of what I've given them. Yeah, yeah... I know stop your complaining. So, you've been sucking my... errm... toes... for the past - oh - your whole mortal life? Well that sucks, doesn't it? Ha! Did you get the pun? Yeah, well... anyway what I'm trying to say is, I want you to keep spreading the faith. Don't forget to keep the spirits up and all that, I want everyone to have high morale. Cya, suckers!" :P
- To add insult to injury Mask essentially did the above, and elevated a heretic to boot, and while embracing heretics in and of itself is not a bad thing, it really causes all those other clerics you have to begin second-guessing their support and devotion to you. Especially, if they begin to think they got it all wrong.
- To handle the Shades all Mask would have to do is grant his Clerics the temporary ability to turn Outsiders and make that turning ability unresistible by any mortal method. That should handle the Shade problem fairly easily. In addition to that, because its temporary he does not have to invest much of his divine power to do it, and because if a Cleric going up against Shades is going to want to keep their divine power, he does not have to worry about them turning on him.
- Which brings me to my next point. You really know you have gone over the line when a mortal has been allowed to strike a god. There is absolutely no way that should have ever happened unless Mask said to him, “I want you to stab me right here.” And only then, it would happen because his mere presence would terrify Cale so badly that he would be afraid to do otherwise. A god is not an epic NPC. A god is so far beyond that… it would boggle the mind too even comprehend it. Ignore the published stats.
I do not care how uber you are, how ultra powerful you become, canonically speaking there is no way any mortal should even come close to striking a deity. Let alone a CLERIC of said deity, no matter HOW heretical they are – that just is not something that a Cleric contemplates, and furthermore, that is something no deity with half a brain would tolerate if it could actually happen.
Assuming Cale is not on the ground, cowering before Masks presence, wetting himself from fear, and at the same time – you know what? Just forget that. Let’s just say a mortal has the testicular fortitude to strike a god, and that Mask would not know his Cleric anticipated that strike weeks in advance. Let us just ignore that fact and pretend it happens. Mask instantly turns to shadow as the blow goes right through him, and as Cale stumbles forward, he lets out a horrific scream. Suddenly, every Cleric of Mask throughout Toril hears that scream, and then in their minds eye they see Cale, his flesh falling from his bones and internal organs spilling out. They watch this and then they hear booming through their heads (feeling as if it is splitting their skulls open), "THIS IS THE PRICE FOR MORTAL INSOLENCE AGAINST A GOD. DO NOT REPEAT THIS FOOLS ACTIONS OR YOU SHALL JOIN HIM!"
After that, every Cleric of Mask pees their pants until they can find the nearest and safest place to give prayers to their deity. That is what would happen if a mortal tried to strike a god, particularly an evil and arrogant god, in a cannon realms before this… incident.
Well, that is pretty much why I do not read the novels, you see? It tends to make me go off on a tangent. :P
However, as far as I am concerned, that is how Ed has described the gods, and what would happen if it was actually cannon. It certainly would never happen in my Realms. It undermines what it means to be a god.
If Shar appears before you, I do not care how holy you are, you are literally filled with feelings of loss that will drive you to suicide merely by being in her presence. You will beg her to kill you. You will weep and cry and plead, and Shar will deny you, and tell you that it is not yet your time, but she has a mission for you, and you will do whatever she wants. You will convert on that very spot, because the experience would warp you in ways that cannot even be put into words.
If Bane appears before you, I do not care about your Paladin immunity to fear, it is overruled by a presence of a god, you will fall to the ground cowering. He is the god of fear, and damn it, you will feel it. You will lose control of your bodily functions and you will do whatever he says, because like Shar above, you have been warped by the very experience that is beyond words.
If Mystra appears you will fall to the ground in reverence of her, I do not care if you are a Chosen of Shar, she is a god, you will feel compelled to do so out of awe, unless Shar herself is literally and physically there with you blocking that influence. You will know that Mystra is Magic and if Mystra asks you to convert you will do so, without question, without thought, because like Bane and Shar above, the experience has warped you in ways that is beyond words.
Deities rarely interact with mortals on a physical level, and it is mostly through vague dreams and visions. If you are lucky, and are a very special priest who has done a lot of good things, you might experience a visit from your deity or be temporarily taken to your deities divine realm. However, like the above, you would be no different, your experience would be the same, and your faith would become unshakeable merely by being in the presence of such a powerful being.
There is no check you can make to avoid it. There is no save. It just happens. Period. You are in the presence of a being that is the very MANIFESTATION of whatever they represent - loss, fear, tyranny, hatred, magic, forgetfulness, all of that and much, much MUCH more.
Erm… I have gotten off topic, but yeah… this is why I do not read novels. People are free to do whatever they want in their home games. I do not mind and even encourage people to do battle with the gods if that's their thing. The important thing is to have fun. What I cannot stand is when stuff like that is turned into cannon.
:raincloud :thumbsdow 
Yeah, I guess that's enough ranting. Those emoticons only partially describe what I feel. That'd be the third strike against the Cale books for me. Nothing against Paul personally, I'm sure it's a good stand alone story, but as far as I am concerned first the Tear of Selune crashing into Faerun and now mortal clerics striking their own gods... yeah... and it being made cannon... yeah... that's three strikes.
1. Currently they are assigned to kill Kesson Rell, and take back some of Masks power that he stole. Could an average cleric of Mask accomplish that? Nope. You need the best of the best. And even that might not be enough, so he gives them a little something extra to even the odds.
2. Cale was never brought up in the clergy. His clerical prowess was entirely self taught. Thus he is a free thinker, and not limited to the doctrine organized religion espouses. Many of his thoughts are considered blasphemous to a standard cleric (let alone sticking a knife into his gods ribs). This means that he thinks out side the box, which is valuable to Mask.
3. If your going to go toe to toe with thousand year old shade princes that are the favored of Shar, you might need something a little more durable than a purely mortal follower. So he boosts them with a little divine power.
4. Being a morally ambiguous and slightly chaotic God, you tend to have followers that are the same way. People you really can't trust. Therefore you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. You want them competing with each other, not you. You also want them to know that there are two or three of them to bring them down if one goes rogue.
5. The plot has not entirely unfurled yet. Mask has plans withing plans, and is a master manipulator. He has some definite purpose in mind for Cale and Riven, and it goes beyond the Kesson Rell thing. The stage is simply being set. Stealing the Temple from Cyric, thwarting some, but not all of Shar's plans... Something is afoot.
Okay, first of all I am going to point out: I have not read the Cale books. As I have pointed out previously, I avoid reading Realm's novels for a number of reasons. First, I refuse to give money to support novels being turned into cannon, which subsequently ruin the setting. Second, most of what is written just isn't my type of thing, though I realize others might enjoy it (more power to them). Third, I really don't want what I read to turn me off to the Realms or 'taint' my view of the setting and force me to walk away in disgust. That being said, I am mostly familiar with the trilogy and what happens in them, because I keep up to date through second hand informants.
With that out of the way, let me say - none of those things qualifies someone for Chosen status. Fzoul could possibly qualify because he follows a Lawful Deity who has a strict Hierarchy in his Church so he's sort of like a 'Pope' type figure. I'd even let Cadderly slide for the reasons you mentioned, though neither of them need to be particularly high level or epic characters. Plus, they're both mostly Clerics which is always a bonus when receiving divine power.
However, to focus on the above...
- Basically the whole thrust of the argument that you put forward is that Mask has elevated some folks to a very high status among his faithful, ignored his priests, all because he wanted someone whacked. So he invested some folks (in this case Cale and some others) with bits of his divine power, into people he freely admits he can't trust, in people he has no control over unlike his clergy who depend on him for their divine spells, and that over all he's decided to toss the dice and hope for the best. Did I sum it up? :P
- In the process of doing that he's told his Epic Clerics this: "You know, you guys... well... I think you are pretty worthless. So I'm going to elevate these other schmucks to positions of power you'd sacrifice your own mothers to... well... I guess you'd sacrifice them to me... but you'd kill them just for a taste of what I've given them. Yeah, yeah... I know stop your complaining. So, you've been sucking my... errm... toes... for the past - oh - your whole mortal life? Well that sucks, doesn't it? Ha! Did you get the pun? Yeah, well... anyway what I'm trying to say is, I want you to keep spreading the faith. Don't forget to keep the spirits up and all that, I want everyone to have high morale. Cya, suckers!" :P
- To add insult to injury Mask essentially did the above, and elevated a heretic to boot, and while embracing heretics in and of itself is not a bad thing, it really causes all those other clerics you have to begin second-guessing their support and devotion to you. Especially, if they begin to think they got it all wrong.
- To handle the Shades all Mask would have to do is grant his Clerics the temporary ability to turn Outsiders and make that turning ability unresistible by any mortal method. That should handle the Shade problem fairly easily. In addition to that, because its temporary he does not have to invest much of his divine power to do it, and because if a Cleric going up against Shades is going to want to keep their divine power, he does not have to worry about them turning on him.
- Which brings me to my next point. You really know you have gone over the line when a mortal has been allowed to strike a god. There is absolutely no way that should have ever happened unless Mask said to him, “I want you to stab me right here.” And only then, it would happen because his mere presence would terrify Cale so badly that he would be afraid to do otherwise. A god is not an epic NPC. A god is so far beyond that… it would boggle the mind too even comprehend it. Ignore the published stats.
I do not care how uber you are, how ultra powerful you become, canonically speaking there is no way any mortal should even come close to striking a deity. Let alone a CLERIC of said deity, no matter HOW heretical they are – that just is not something that a Cleric contemplates, and furthermore, that is something no deity with half a brain would tolerate if it could actually happen.
Assuming Cale is not on the ground, cowering before Masks presence, wetting himself from fear, and at the same time – you know what? Just forget that. Let’s just say a mortal has the testicular fortitude to strike a god, and that Mask would not know his Cleric anticipated that strike weeks in advance. Let us just ignore that fact and pretend it happens. Mask instantly turns to shadow as the blow goes right through him, and as Cale stumbles forward, he lets out a horrific scream. Suddenly, every Cleric of Mask throughout Toril hears that scream, and then in their minds eye they see Cale, his flesh falling from his bones and internal organs spilling out. They watch this and then they hear booming through their heads (feeling as if it is splitting their skulls open), "THIS IS THE PRICE FOR MORTAL INSOLENCE AGAINST A GOD. DO NOT REPEAT THIS FOOLS ACTIONS OR YOU SHALL JOIN HIM!"
After that, every Cleric of Mask pees their pants until they can find the nearest and safest place to give prayers to their deity. That is what would happen if a mortal tried to strike a god, particularly an evil and arrogant god, in a cannon realms before this… incident.
Well, that is pretty much why I do not read the novels, you see? It tends to make me go off on a tangent. :P
However, as far as I am concerned, that is how Ed has described the gods, and what would happen if it was actually cannon. It certainly would never happen in my Realms. It undermines what it means to be a god.
If Shar appears before you, I do not care how holy you are, you are literally filled with feelings of loss that will drive you to suicide merely by being in her presence. You will beg her to kill you. You will weep and cry and plead, and Shar will deny you, and tell you that it is not yet your time, but she has a mission for you, and you will do whatever she wants. You will convert on that very spot, because the experience would warp you in ways that cannot even be put into words.
If Bane appears before you, I do not care about your Paladin immunity to fear, it is overruled by a presence of a god, you will fall to the ground cowering. He is the god of fear, and damn it, you will feel it. You will lose control of your bodily functions and you will do whatever he says, because like Shar above, you have been warped by the very experience that is beyond words.
If Mystra appears you will fall to the ground in reverence of her, I do not care if you are a Chosen of Shar, she is a god, you will feel compelled to do so out of awe, unless Shar herself is literally and physically there with you blocking that influence. You will know that Mystra is Magic and if Mystra asks you to convert you will do so, without question, without thought, because like Bane and Shar above, the experience has warped you in ways that is beyond words.
Deities rarely interact with mortals on a physical level, and it is mostly through vague dreams and visions. If you are lucky, and are a very special priest who has done a lot of good things, you might experience a visit from your deity or be temporarily taken to your deities divine realm. However, like the above, you would be no different, your experience would be the same, and your faith would become unshakeable merely by being in the presence of such a powerful being.
There is no check you can make to avoid it. There is no save. It just happens. Period. You are in the presence of a being that is the very MANIFESTATION of whatever they represent - loss, fear, tyranny, hatred, magic, forgetfulness, all of that and much, much MUCH more.
Erm… I have gotten off topic, but yeah… this is why I do not read novels. People are free to do whatever they want in their home games. I do not mind and even encourage people to do battle with the gods if that's their thing. The important thing is to have fun. What I cannot stand is when stuff like that is turned into cannon.
:raincloud :thumbsdow Yeah, I guess that's enough ranting. Those emoticons only partially describe what I feel. That'd be the third strike against the Cale books for me. Nothing against Paul personally, I'm sure it's a good stand alone story, but as far as I am concerned first the Tear of Selune crashing into Faerun and now mortal clerics striking their own gods... yeah... and it being made cannon... yeah... that's three strikes.
Here's an example of the Chosen at work. Clash of the Titans. Perseus is given the sandals, the sword, the mechanical owl, and sent to go kill the twisted and deformed villain of our piece before going on to marry the Princess. He's been sent on a divine mission.
Perseus is a Paladin for all intents and purposes.
There have been Clerics that have been Chosen as well. Moses, Elijah, and other figures that have been Chosen whom also exist for "bringing the word to the people" in addition to going forth and slaying the bad guys.
They have a VERY SPECIFIC mission that's different from the regular "Go forth and slay Ravana."
Honestly, the argument that deities should turn to their Clerics for accomplishing their various missions would make more sense if mythology remotely worked that way. Not just in the Bible but in pretty much every myth since the Dawn of Time, the Gods tend to NOT choose priests to go forth and do their holy mission.
They choose warriors, Kings, wizards, and pretty much every other type of individual out there to do their holy work because that's what they do. Why do gods need paladins anyway? I mean, they have Clerics. Is the d8 hit dice THAT bad?
Yes, yes it really is.
Mask is the God of Thieves. Mystra is the Goddess of Magic. Seriously, what kind of weird religion are they running that their Chosen are going to be Priests? It's like saying "Being the God of Thieves means less to me than being a God, period." It would ruin their entire idiom that their purpose is to patronize the nature of Thievery and Magic only to give it to their scripture preachers.
Chosen exist to replicate the fun of being "being on a mission from God" like the Blues Brothers, whom I think under no circumstances anyone would ever confuse for being Clerics.
And all those Epic Clerics, Mask has (wouldn't we have HEARD of an Epic Cleric of Mask by this point?), well when they're passed over for being Chosen then they should acknowledge maybe their deity had a point, what with them being mortal and all.
Of course, Erevis Cale is a very poor choice for this argument because in addition to being a Fighter and a Thief.
Erevis *IS* a Cleric :P
And then there's the Iliad, in which deities bestow Eristea on various heroes (Diomedes, for example) - literally filling them with DIVINE FIRE for specific purposes in the battle. And none of those figures are Clerics.
Yes, I think that the Forgotten Realms is a very "Myth-Heavy" setting and part of this myth is that the gods tend to favor a lot of people very specifically and give them great gifts or chosen tasks.
This may seem like it kicks the Priests in the butt to some extent but there's no reason that the Priests should have a monopoly on divine favor anyway or can't be Chosen themselves.
Why is Elminster Chosen of Mystra? Because he's the Big Wizard.
Why is Cadderly the Chosen of Deneir? Because he's the Big Scribe (Cleric)
I had actually begun to write a response, but at this point I'm just arguing in circles. People think it's about the Chosen and it's not. So at the risk of being taken off point again, I am just going to repost a previous post that seems to have been looked over. It summarizes my thoughts and the reasons I feel the way that I do.
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I'm aware of the roles Mystra's Chosen were designed to play. They were designed to hold fragments of her power. That's not my point.
My point is that:
1) She has more Chosen than necessary.
2) Most of them are more powerful than necessary.
3) Other gods were given Chosen because of the popularity of Mystra's Chosen, and because novel authors wanted their creations to be equally powerful/fantastical/'kewl'/whatever.
4) The result of all this has a direct impact on us re: 4th Edition.
Just take a step back for a moment and try and think about things objectively. Forget everything you know about the Forgotten Realm's. All of the lore you know is irrelevant. In fact, you don't know anything about D&D aside from the fact that it's a role-playing game and that it's something similar to 'acting'.
However, at the same time, you are a big fan of the Forgotten Realms. You buy all the novels. You could spend hours detailing all of Drizzt's Adventures. You can name all of Mystra's Chosen. Elminster and Drizzt to you are epic heroes that kick a lot of ass. In effect, they're 'kewl'.
Your friend, who is equally enthusiastic about the Realms, picks up the FRCS wanting to know more 'lore' about his favorite setting. He then learns about this game called 'D&D' so he goes to Google to learn more, and decides to buy the Dungeon Master's Guide and Players Handbook and everything required to play. He then invites you over along with some other friends who have an interest in the Realms. He goes over the rules with them and tries to familiarize everyone with the concepts. All of these people are between the ages of 12 and 16.
Finally, he gives everyone a copy of the character sheet and they begin building their characters. What type of characters do you think they want to build? Do they want to build a level 1 D&D Character, a character that struggles against goblins? Or do they want to create the next Drizzt or Elminster?
The answer should be obvious, and it should also be obvious that WotC is targeting these people with the new Realm's.
The Realms as we currently know it was NOT designed to be a High Fantasy Setting. However, over time, primarily due to the novels and various other influences, that's what the Realms has morphed into. Now WotC is taking it to the next level. They are remaking the Realms so that it becomes the setting that it advertises itself as - now you can battle gods and become the next Elminster. Why worry with more traditional adventures when you can stop demonic invasions, resurrect Mystra and become her next Chosen.
I'm not knocking the novels. As stand alone stories they could be a nice read. I'm not even knocking that style of play. In fact, right now, I'm about to begin playing in a PbP Game where I am level 5 with an ECL of at least 15 (I'm guessing I didn't bother to check). I even made up my own class and given my character about 15 supernatural abilities. However, that's fine - that's the type of game I'm about to play in - and it isn't set in the Realms.
The problem - and what I am attacking here - is the perception created by the novels that has (negatively in my opinion) impacted the Realms. It is not WotC's fault per-say, it is something that stretches all the way back to TSR, and it is a problem that has built up over time.
This is why I have lamented over the novels being made cannon. It's why I've suggested and tried to encourage novels that deal with "common" people. It's why I have constantly and continuously spoken out again and again every time a RSE takes place or a new epic character is introduced into the setting. It is all of those combined consequences that is ultimately responsible for delivering to us 4th Edition. It is virtually impossible not to be able to connect the dots.
So, to bring this discussion full circle. The problem is not any individual Chosen of Mystra, it is all of them combined, and then added to the other combined Chosen of other deities, then multiplied by all the RSE's that take place. The setting has been going down this path since right before the ToT and things have only continued to go further downhill ever since.
You both are correct. Yet at the same time you both are overlooking the obvious: They were myths for a reason.
Bonzai-Show
- Basically the whole thrust of the argument that you put forward is that Mask has elevated some folks to a very high status among his faithful, ignored his priests, all because he wanted someone whacked. So he invested some folks (in this case Cale and some others) with bits of his divine power, into people he freely admits he can't trust, in people he has no control over unlike his clergy who depend on him for their divine spells, and that over all he's decided to toss the dice and hope for the best...
Show
You haven't been paying attention! Where did you think all the Chosen came from? :P
No, but seriously, as far as I am concerned Cale's story might be the greatest thing since the Iliad. That's irrelevant to me. I don't really care about Cale, what Mask's plans are for Cale, or anything of that nature. What matters to me is how it effects the cannon Realms.
Nothing I said is meant to be an attack against Paul personally. I've seen him posting around here, and frankly, I think he appears to be a swell guy. I like him. However, our 'vision' of the Realm's appears to be completely different from one another, to the point of being night and day, but he isn't the only author that I have that problem with.
As stand alone stories I might even enjoy them, but they aren't stand alone - they impact the game world and they are contributing to the problems that I believe have led to the creation of 4th Edition.
It's the people that read those stories that the 4E Realm's has been designed for, and I'm not one of those people.
Such an action would inevitably create an arms race among the clergy of the gods. Each bestowing more and more power on their mortal followers, in an attempt to out do the others. I don't recall ever seeing something like that done, and it may not be allowed in the realms.
You haven't been paying attention! Where did you think all the Chosen came from? :P
No, but seriously, as far as I am concerned Cale's story might be the greatest thing since the Iliad. That's irrelevant to me. I don't really care about Cale, what Mask's plans are for Cale, or anything of that nature. What matters to me is how it effects the cannon Realms.
Nothing I said is meant to be an attack against Paul personally. I've seen him posting around here, and frankly, I think he appears to be a swell guy. I like him. However, our 'vision' of the Realm's appears to be completely different from one another, to the point of being night and day, but he isn't the only author that I have that problem with.
As stand alone stories I might even enjoy them, but they aren't stand alone - they impact the game world and they are contributing to the problems that I believe have led to the creation of 4th Edition.
It's the people that read those stories that the 4E Realm's has been designed for, and I'm not one of those people.
Charles, GothicDan-
You both are correct. Yet at the same time you both are overlooking the obvious: They were myths for a reason.
I think part of the problem is that I have Bhaalspawn in my group and two Chosen.
My players are explicitly the most important people in the Realms and even Elminster as well as the Seven Sisters treats these characters as beings of incredible importance to the setting.
For me, being a Chosen is easilly one of the easiest ways to establish "Your Characters are Awesome and Kickass" in a setting where they would otherwise be overwhelmed.
How exactly do you have your player characters be extremely important without them being the God's own personal "Go to" guys?
For me, it's all about the PCs, and bluntly you seem to want to make the PCs a bunch of random Mercenaries from Sembia. What exactly is the purpose of the PCs but to be Luke Skywalker rather than Rebel No. 2#? The PCs are guys who should be automatically the No. 1 most important people in god's lives.
Frankly, they're the guys who leaves Bane's plans crumbled up and the god hiding. Being Chosen is just recognition that you are the God Spankers.
Chosen are sort of the Forgotten Realms Exalted and no one plays mortals in Exalted.
Seriously, you have illustrated what I am trying to say perfectly.
What type of characters do you think they want to build? Do they want to build a level 1 D&D Character, a character that struggles against goblins? Or do they want to create the next Drizzt or Elminster?
The answer should be obvious, and it should also be obvious that WotC is targeting these people with the new Realm's.
The Realms as we currently know it was NOT designed to be a High Fantasy Setting. However, over time, primarily due to the novels and various other influences, that's what the Realms has morphed into. Now WotC is taking it to the next level. They are remaking the Realms so that it becomes the setting that it advertises itself as - now you can battle gods and become the next Elminster. Why worry with more traditional adventures when you can stop demonic invasions, resurrect Mystra and become her next Chosen.
And earlier in this thread, the bold answers your question:
The mundane stuff is still there. It just isn't presented and we get a lopsided view of the world. Ed really has put a lot of work into making the world seem real and vibrant, and he deserves a lot of credit for that. Ed and I may disagree on some aspects (for example he has a tendency to create overly powerful NPC's in ways that are completely unnecessary), but on others we are of the same mind. Ed cares just as much for the simple farmer as he does Elminster, and I think if given the opportunity he'd probably much rather talk more about the mundane things than the extraordinary.
The problem that I see is that because the majority of what we see is the fantastical and extraordinary we lack a proper perspective in which to judge the Realm's. On the one hand it's understandable - PC's are made to stand out - they are the exceptions to the rule. Then on the other hand, when they are placed against a backdrop of uber epic NPC's all over the place, mid-to-high level NPC's dotting every street corner, and the like they end up blending in more than standing out. They no longer become the exceptions but the rule.
Why does every major novel need to have an Epic or near-Epic protagonist? How exactly does that enhance the setting? What purpose does that serve? None, as far as I can tell, and in the long run it is my opinion that it is this line of thought that has ultimately brought us to 4th Edition.
Now, no longer will anything be mundane. Everything is magical and special. There is fantastical-ness around every corner. Even the landscape itself needs to be fantastical and magical. It is no longer good enough for a castle to be built on a hill - no! It must be built on a hill that floats!
All of this in turn has caused me to question what exactly a level 1 PC will look like in FR. At the rate things are going, even the common people of Faerun will be hurling around Epic and High Magic just to keep themselves safe from the next Tear of Selune that happens to fall on their heads.
And then later:
As I said above, it reminds me of something my mother used to tell me. Whenever I wanted something, and she'd refuse me, I'd plead with her and in a joking manor I'd say something like: "Awww, come on. Aren't I special?" And she'd reply: "Of course you're special. You're special just like everyone else."
Realms Authors want their characters to be special so they make them Chosen, but in the process they make them special... just like everyone else.
And that ultimately leads us exactly to where you currently are at Charles. You should be able to run a game in the Realms where being a Sembian Mercenary is important. There should not be a perception that NOT being ultra-powerful and epic means that somehow, you are unimportant, that you cannot make an impact and that your character is somehow less valuable.
What you are saying is exactly my point. The perception of the Realms has been, frankly, ruined to a point where most people who want to play in the setting want to play those types of characters. Otherwise, they feel like you and your group.
Those of us, like myself, who reject that type of faux-cannon, and tried to keep things "more traditional" begrudgingly accepted the sweet poison that was the novels. However, now we are kicked to the curb with 4E. The setting as a whole has been altered to fit the perception created, thus in effect ruining it for us.
The irony on my part is that I look around, see those who hate 4E, and yet in the same breath embrace the novels and their continued contribution to the problem. The poison that has continuously been ingested may be sweet and taste delicious, but ultimately it was fatal – and death for the Realms comes in the form of 4th Edition. Everything that the Realms was before is dead, in favor of ultra high epic fantasy.
And that ultimately leads us exactly to where you currently are at Charles. You should be able to run a game in the Realms where being a Sembian Mercenary is important. There should not be a perception that NOT being ultra-powerful and epic means that somehow, you are unimportant, that you cannot make an impact and that your character is somehow less valuable.
I understand that, I also think that you are personally insulting my campaign style. By shouting down about the Chosen Ones, the Demigods, and all the other stuff, you are basically saying that people who want to play non-realistic but overthetop Final Fantasy-esque gaming is something not welcome at your table.
The great irony is that I've cut Elminster's levels in Half in my own campaign (Check out the 616 Campaign setting description) but kept the Chosen bits.
What you are saying is exactly my point. The perception of the Realms has been, frankly, ruined to a point where most people who want to play in the setting want to play those types of characters. Otherwise, they feel like you and your group.
I guess the point is that I honestly couldn't care less about the issues of levels and am much more concerned about making sure my players are aware of their place as being the most important heroes in their particular focus of the game.
Assuming they want to be.
Cause, when I play Star Wars. Not all of my player characters want to play the Luke, Leia, and Han of the world. They, instead, often as not want to play Firefly style smugglers and rogues that don't care anything about the Galactic Civil War.
Does that mean that Luke shouldn't exist?
Those of us, like myself, who reject that type of faux-cannon, and tried to keep things "more traditional" begrudgingly accepted the sweet poison that was the novels. However, now we are kicked to the curb with 4E. The setting as a whole has been altered to fit the perception created, thus in effect ruining it for us.
I think it's important to remember that people, as often as not, come to the Forgotten Realms because of the novels. I was brought to Forgotten Realms by the Avatar Crisis and the Drizzt Do'Urden novels. I don't think that the game setting would be nearly as enjoyable without the benefit of the novels to enhance it.
The irony on my part is that I look around, see those who hate 4E, and yet in the same breath embrace the novels and their continued contribution to the problem. The poison that has continuously been ingested may be sweet and taste delicious, but ultimately it was fatal – and death for the Realms comes in the form of 4th Edition. Everything that the Realms was before is dead, in favor of ultra high epic fantasy.
Ultimately, that's what FF *IS* though. It's what seperates FF from Eberron, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance. FF is the game setting of Ultra-High Fantasy and ridiculously overthetop battles between gods and Kings.
I play Eberron, Conan the Barbarian, and FR. I wouldn't try to make one into the other.
I understand that, I also think that you are personally insulting my campaign style. By shouting down about the Chosen Ones, the Demigods, and all the other stuff, you are basically saying that people who want to play non-realistic but overthetop Final Fantasy-esque gaming is something not welcome at your table.
That is not my intention. As I said:
I'm not knocking the novels. As stand alone stories they could be a nice read. I'm not even knocking that style of play. In fact, right now, I'm about to begin playing in a PbP Game where I am level 5 with an ECL of at least 15 (I'm guessing I didn't bother to check). I even made up my own class and given my character about 15 supernatural abilities. However, that's fine - that's the type of game I'm about to play in - and it isn't set in the Realms.
As of this very moment, I'm about to become a player in a very similar game to yours. Though it isn't set in the Realms. I have nothing against those types of games, and enjoy them from time to time, but from my perspective it goes against what the Realms was designed to be.
Through my eyes, I see the Realms as a setting with two layers. On the very top layer, there is the perception that has been created by the novels and the like. Under that there is... well... everything else - the "meat and potatoes" Realms, if you will.
It's true my words might sound insulting, but that is not the intention - what you are seeing is frustration. I am angry that they've cut away everything that made the Realms what it is.
The thing is when people say the novels and the Chosen have no impact on peoples games because you can ignore them, I see that as false. It's true you can ignore them, but they have an impact. They impact perception.
At one point in time the perceptions of the Realms used to be somewhat different. Things have changed, and in my opinion not for the better. I don't have any suggestions to fix it - I had suggestions - but at this point I think its too late. The Realms that I used to love is dead and buried. At this point, it's hard for me to even look at the setting and really feel the way I used to about it, because my perceptions of it have likewise been altered. Which is very sad, because at this point I want to change the Realms back into what it used to be while fixing the problems and I am quickly realizing that it is a futile task.
It's like taking a razorblade to the setting and then realizing, after each cut, you have to cut even deeper still, until you finally discover that you've cut away so much that it is barely recognizable as what it once was.
1) She has more Chosen than necessary.
Her current Chosen are the Seven Sisters, Khelben, Elminster, and the Srinshee, purely off the top of my head (she may have one or two others kicking around as well that I forget right now). That isn't exactly a lot -
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and while both Khelben and Sylune are now "truly" dead, the Srinshee hasn't shown up in mainstream events for a long, long while, bringing that ten down to just seven
Those two points were only points that led to the conclusion:
A) Mystra has more Chosen than is needed.
B) Her Chosen are needlessly uberfied for maximum "awe".
C) As other people added to the setting, they looked to Mystra's Chosen, wanted their characters to be equally important/powerful/fantastical/'kewl'/whatever, and thus created their own equally powerful 'Chosen'.
D) Therefore, overtime this has resulted in the perception that Charles outlined in his post, and because of this it has had a "problem" and a direct impact upon us all: re 4th Edition Forgotten Realms.
Discussing one point over the others is to ignore the overall picture and the real problem. Mystra's Chosen, individually and alone, are irrelevant. It's the combined impact they'd had (along with other similar characters) on those who've read about them, those who have imitated them, and the perceptions they've cast over the setting that matter.
Just one last thing on the chosen before I am done. You come out and clearly state that you have a problem with the chosen's power levels, and at the same time have never read the novels. The problem with that, is that if you would have read the novels you would have seen that the chosen all started out as low level npc's. Their power levels grow a little bit with each novel (just as a PC with each adventure). What you end up seeing, is the stats after all the events of the novels took place, with a nice +4 level adjustment template stuck on top. Without spoiling to much, Elminister started as a 1st level fighter. By the end of the first book, he was probably something like Fighter 1/Rogue 2/Cleric 3/Wizard 14 after about 20 years of straight adventuring. It was at that point that he was made a chosen, though Mystra had been grooming him since he was a boy. Cadderly and Cale had similar growth. While the seven sister's novels were out of print before I got in to the realms, I understand that they had a similar growth period.
And you know what? I have absolutely no problem with that. If a PC and DM focus on the characters, and take them up to the epic levels, then they really do approach the chosen in power. Even better, it may only take the character a decade or two of game time, where it often took the chosen centuries to reach that level. If the PC and DM don't make that kind of investment, then why should they expect the character to be better than the NPC's that have had centuries to establish themselves?
Rinonalyrna & Faraer-
I'm aware of the roles Mystra's Chosen were designed to play. They were designed to hold fragments of her power. That's not my point. :P
My point is that:
1) She has more Chosen than necessary.
That's not a fact though, it's an opinion. Since the Chosen are as Faraer pointed out just a literary device, there's no way to objectively know how many is too many, unless one day it is decided by the powers that be that Mystra can only have X number of Chosen at any one time.
It's just as likely, based on what we know about the Chosen, that Mystra doesn't have enough of them (after all, she's lost a few lately...).
2) Most of them are more powerful than necessary.
Again, that statement is just not within the realm of objectivity. Considering how old the Chosen are, and the amount of enemies they have, their levels of power make sense.
3) Other gods were given Chosen because of the popularity of Mystra's Chosen, and because novel authors wanted their creations to be equally powerful/fantastical/'kewl'/whatever.
That, I agree with.
4) The result of all this has a direct impact on us re: 4th Edition.
I'm sure there's some kind of impact, but we don't have any way of quantifying what it is.
Just take a step back for a moment and try and think about things objectively. Forget everything you know about the Forgotten Realm's. All of the lore you know is irrelevant. In fact, you don't know anything about D&D aside from the fact that it's a role-playing game and that its something similar to 'acting'.
However, at the same time, you are a big fan of the Forgotten Realms. You buy all the novels. You could spend hours detailing all of Drizzt's Adventures. You can name all of Mystra's Chosen. Elminster and Drizzt to you are epic heroes that kick a lot of ass. In effect, they're 'kewl'.
Your friend, who is equally enthusiastic about the Realms, picks up the FRCS wanting to know more 'lore' about his favorite setting. He then learns about this game called 'D&D' so he goes to Google to learn more, and decides to buy the Dungeon Master's Guide and Players Handbook and everything required to play. He then invites you over along with some other friends who have an interest in the Realms. He goes over the rules with them and tries to familiarize everyone with the concepts. All of these people are between the ages of 12 and 16.
Finally, he gives everyone a copy of the character sheet and they begin building their characters. What type of characters do you think they want to build? Do they want to build a level 1 D&D Character, a character that struggles against goblins? Or do they want to create the next Drizzt or Elminster?
The answer should be obvious, and it should also be obvious that WotC is targeting these people with the new Realm's.
The answer isn't obvious, because everyone is different.
Also, in any case I don't see why this must be a case of "either, or". D&D adventures usually involve "building" the next heroes up with smaller tasks, then moving on to bigger ones. I think most players like the idea of their PCs growing into revered heroes. I know I do.
And based on what I know of 4E play, players are supposed to start off at level 1 and tackle minor foes at first. However, if people really do want to start off powerful (no matter what edition they are using) and everyone in the group is fine with that, there's nothing wrong with that. It's legit as long as everyone is having a good time.
My point is, though, that while 4E seems to be stressing the concept of level 1 characters being capable, that doesn't mean level 1 players in 4E are going to be god-like beings.
Why worry with more traditional adventures when you can stop demonic invasions, resurrect Mystra and become her next Chosen.
See my above post. I see no reason why one would have to choose between the two.
This is why I have lamented over the novels being made cannon. It's why I've suggested and tried to encourage novels that deal with "common" people. It's why I have constantly and continuously spoken out again and again every time a RSE takes place or a new epic character is introduced into the setting.
You and me both (and plenty of other people!).
It is all of those combined consequences that is ultimately responsible for delivering to us 4th Edition. It is virtually impossible not to be able to connect the dots.
Again, there's more to it than that. For one thing, the nature of the industry requires it to renew itself with new editions every several years. Only one edition over the long term is apparently not sustainable, as far as sales are concerned.
You are probably talking about the nature of 4E. I'm not saying you are entirely wrong with what you are saying, but the design principles for 4E probably aren't only based on what's happened over the years with the FR novel line. And as I said before, nothing in the 4E preview books suggests that "traditional", low-level adventures aren't going to be around anymore.
You come out and clearly state that you have a problem with the chosen's power levels, and at the same time have never read the novels.
Just because I choose not to read the novels does not mean that I do not see the results, nor does it mean that I do not have a firm grasp of what takes place within them. I may not be able to go into the gritty details about Elminster's personal life, but I know enough about Elminster to suit my needs and desires. All I needed from Elminster was a name, a location, and a brief description, and I ran with that. My Elminster differs in many respects to the cannon Elminster, and frankly, I happen to like mine better. :P
And you know what? I have absolutely no problem with that. If a PC and DM focus on the characters, and take them up to the epic levels, then they really do approach the chosen in power. Even better, it may only take the character a decade or two of game time, where it often took the chosen centuries to reach that level. If the PC and DM don't make that kind of investment, then why should they expect the character to be better than the NPC's that have had centuries to establish themselves?
Well you see that is where we differ. It comes down to style. Unless there is a good reason for it NPC's do not level up. Could you imagine the level of an Elf Commoner once they've reached old age? Only key NPC's that are involved with the PC's gain power as the campaign moves forward. Outside of that, it doesn't matter how many Red Wizards the Simbul slaughters, she isn't getting even 1 XP for it unless she is directly involved in the campaign and her level is already close to the PCs.
As a general rule I increase and decrease NPCs power in relative proportions to the PCs and to how I feel they are portrayed. It is unlikely that the PCs will meet an Epic anything at relative low levels, but as they grow in power they will suddenly realize that there is a lot of epic stuff hanging around – just not on Toril – but in the planes.
That is my personal preference when setting games in the Realms. That is the way that I like it, and I set things up like that to avoid the types of feelings that Charles outlines. I do not want my players to feel overshadowed by epic figures. If they are playing Sembian Mercenaries, then they are important and are the center of the story, and the backdrop of the world reflects this – the perceptions that Charles describes should not even enter into their heads.
However, due to the novels the perceptions that Charles describes are very real. The Realms has wrongfully been stamped and converted into a setting of ultra high epic fantasy. If you dig deeper, past the novels, and you look at what is there, past the places that most novels are set – you find a very different place.
That is my problem with the Chosen. Not their characters, their accomplishments, their actions or anything like that, but the influence they have had on the perception of the setting. If you read another thread here on these forums asking questions about Eberron vs FR by someone who wants to game in the setting, you'll see what I mean. Read what was written about FR by someone who knew very little about the setting in the first post. Then realize that this is a common impression held of the Realms.
-This is not always the case. A campaign I was in- that, thankfully, didn't last long- had the DM make the party Cleric 'cloistered'. He was assigned a specific church, and wasn't allowed to leave it very much. Come to think of it, the campaign fell apart so quickly that the PC cleric never actually left his temple, I don't think. Heh.
That's just plain hilarious.
What a stupid idea!
Denier has one chosen.ShowHe was created, because the clergy had begun to turn away from the ideals and principles that Denier held dear. Cadderly was the typified the ideals that were lacking. So when the time came when the order was in danger of being destroyed, Cadderly was chosen to be the one to rebuild it. I'd also like to point out that he started at a very low level. Zombies were a tough challenge for him to begin with. Then he progressed, and moved on to orcs. Then assassins. Then a dragon, and a powerful wizard. Finally, he went up against some high level undead. I actually thought his progression in power was fairly well done. Cale's wasn't bad either.
I don't even think we are disagreeing at this point, just coming to the same conclusion from different angles.
My thing is this... the 3E Realms (and previous editions as well) supported many different themes and play styles. Look at Eberron. Eberron is a nice product, and while it isn't my thing, the world has a definite tone and feel that is universal throughout. The Realms never had that, what it had was more localized feel and tone. If you were in the Heartlands there was a definite different tone and feel than if you were in the Old Empires. Looking at the 4E Realms it seems the changes have been used to create a feel and tone that is universal throughout the Realms, much like Eberron has its feel and tone universal throughout its setting. That tone in my opinion has been heavily influenced by the novels, and the novels go against the feel and tone I generally like for my games.
I think if people enjoy reading about Drizzt and Elminster, and want to play similar characters, then they will like the 4E Realms because its designed with them in mind. For people like me, though, we're shafted. I don't particularly care about what happens in the novels or the uber characters they create, though I often resent the impact that they have on the setting and cannon. (It is much harder for a level 5 Wizard to bring a Tear of Selune down upon the heads of folks in Faerun.)
So yeah, I don't think we're really disagreeing at this point. ;)
-This is not always the case. A campaign I was in- that, thankfully, didn't last long- had the DM make the party Cleric 'cloistered'. He was assigned a specific church, and wasn't allowed to leave it very much. Come to think of it, the campaign fell apart so quickly that the PC cleric never actually left his temple, I don't think. Heh.
That's just plain hilarious.
What a stupid idea!
Yes, I laughed too. I can see what the DM was trying to do but was going about it in the wrong way. I suspect he wanted to create a more realistic game where a priest, you know, actually focused mostly on his priestly duties.
I think that is a common mistake when trying to inject realism into a game. Fun trumps realism, and the two do not necessarily have to be in conflict. Some religions, for example, have wandering priests - Ilmater and Tempus are the first to jump to mind. Priests of Tempus are certainly the adventuring type.
Realism is more a world design philosophy than a play philosophy. It reminds me of a discussion that I had awhile back on a different forum. It was over how to inject things like going to the bathroom into a game. My response was pretty much along the lines of:
Warning: Information about RP Pooping follows!
"Player Characters certainly have to go to the bathroom, but I would imagine most of that happens off screen. What is important, though, is that you reflect this by including such things as designated places to go to the bathroom in building designs and the like. (Has anyone ever wondered where all the monsters go to the bathroom in a Dungeon? Some people haven't read "Everybody Poops"!) There are times when it crops up, though, such as when the players are confined to a room (jail cell or dungeon) for an extended period of time. Taking such things into consideration is useful in describing what it is like in terms of smell and sanitation.
Also, you need to keep in mind that Toilet Paper does not likely exist. Common replacements used depends not only on class and status but on location. The wealthy might use wool or another type of cloth. The common folk may go in rivers and use their hands and clean themselves that way, or may use rags, leaves, grass, hay, stone, sand, corn husks, fruit skins, seashells, corn cobs, moss, sticks, stones or if they are lucky sponges. That of course depends on location. A jail cell, for example, may have a communal chamber pot or simply a hole in the ground, and cleaning restricted to using your hands and if your lucky a bowl of water (and hopefully it isn't the same one you are expected to drink from).
In the end, it probably wouldn't be very fun to actually force your players to go to the bathroom, even though there may realistically be times when they have 'an emergency' and just... can't go at the moment. It would be more funny and actually hurt realism than encourage it. However, having it happen off screen as they travel, and requiring them to carry along the necessary tools could provide the same sense of realism that you want.
Also, your Wizard will suddenly be more thankful of Prestidigitation than he ever thought possible!"
Also, you need to keep in mind that Toilet Paper does not likely exist. Common replacements used depends not only on class and status but on location. The wealthy might use wool or another type of cloth. The common folk may go in rivers and use their hands and clean themselves that way, or may use rags, leaves, grass, hay, stone, sand, corn husks, fruit skins, seashells, corn cobs, moss, sticks, stones or if they are lucky sponges. That of course depends on location. A jail cell, for example, may have a communal chamber pot or simply a hole in the ground, and cleaning restricted to using your hands and if your lucky a bowl of water (and hopefully it isn't the same one you are expected to drink from).
In the end, it probably wouldn't be very fun to actually force your players to go to the bathroom, even though there may realistically be times when they have 'an emergency' and just... can't go at the moment. It would be more funny and actually hurt realism than encourage it. However, having it happen off screen as they travel, and requiring them to carry along the necessary tools could provide the same sense of realism that you want.
Also, your Wizard will suddenly be more thankful of Prestidigitation than he ever thought possible!"
Those two points were only points that led to the conclusion
And I am calling those points into question. If they are false, then naturally your conclusion would also be called into question. If the premises are that 2+3=5 and 2+2=6, therefore 2+1=7 (3 goes down to 2 and the answer goes up 1 - a progression, albeit a ridiculously incorrect one), calling the premises into question naturally reflects on the conclusion - unless said conclusion has other evidence that you can use to prove your case anyway, without the need for those two premises.
So I'd really prefer it if you answered my points.
That was rather convoluted. :P
If you don't like the way I presented it fine, here is an alternative way without opinion injected into it.
1) The popularity of Mystra's Chosen influenced other authors and setting designers.
2) Authors and setting designers wanted their characters to be equally powerful/influential/'kewl'/whatever, so they created Chosen of other Deities and other characters of similar power and scope.
3) Over time as the number of powerful characters grew in the setting and the novels, it began to influence the public perception of the Realms as being a game for high level epic characters. (See Charles post to prove my point.)
4) All of the above was taken into consideration, and the new 4E Realms has been designed from the ground up to fit the false perception that has been created.
Now, do you agree or disagree with the above assertions and if so why? If not, then we are in agreement. If you take one point and not the others, you miss the point entirely and the argument is irrelevant, because the opinion of Mystra's Chosen is ultimately irrelevant, because it isn't about them as characters. It's about the influence they've had on the setting.
If you don't like the way I presented it fine, here is an alternative way without opinion injected into it.
1) The popularity of Mystra's Chosen influenced other authors and setting designers.
2) Authors and setting designers wanted their characters to be equally powerful/influential/'kewl'/whatever, so they created Chosen of other Deities and other characters of similar power and scope.
3) Over time as the number of powerful characters grew in the setting and the novels, it began to influence the public perception of the Realms as being a game for high level epic characters. (See Charles post to prove my point.)
4) All of the above was taken into consideration, and the new 4E Realms has been designed from the ground up to fit the false perception that has been created.
Now, do you agree or disagree with the above assertions and if so why? If not, then we are in agreement. If you take one point and not the others, you miss the point entirely and the argument is irrelevant, because the opinion of Mystra's Chosen is ultimately irrelevant, because it isn't about them as characters. It's about the influence they've had on the setting.
I don't disagree with your assertions, Meldread. I think part of the problem is that I dont' think that 1 and 2 are a problem. The Chosen of Mystra are important character defining elements of the setting. They're the equivalent of the Circle of Eight or the Jedi Council or Knights of the Round Table.
And while the Realms is a place for extremely high adventuring, it's mostly I think the issue of HOW high they were placed as opposed to their status as Chosen. There's no reason that Elminster couldn't be an 18th level Chosen.
and perception or not, 4E is actually addressing an issue that I felt WAS a problem. I just felt that it took a sledgehammer instead of tweaking.
Now, do you agree or disagree with the above assertions and if so why? If not, then we are in agreement. If you take one point and not the others, you miss the point entirely and the argument is irrelevant, because the opinion of Mystra's Chosen is ultimately irrelevant, because it isn't about them as characters. It's about the influence they've had on the setting.
I don't disagree in the sense that things like 1 and 2 happened. I disagree in the sense that I do not believe it to be a problem, thus rendering the perceived (by some) "reduction in power and removal of high-level characters" problem to be irrelevant and unnecessary.
And I'd still prefer it if you could provide an answer to the issues I raised over the two premises I questioned earlier. Specifically, how/why you think Mystra has too many Chosen when she only has ten "regularly mentioned" ones
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(of which, I noted that two are now dead and one is barely ever seen in the mainstream Realms)
The Chosen of Mystra are important character defining elements of the setting. They're the equivalent of the Circle of Eight or the Jedi Council or Knights of the Round Table.
I agree with that. My problem with the Chosen is not what they stand for or them as individuals. If it were just Elminster and one or two others I really wouldn't have a problem with it.
My problem with Mystra's Chosen specifically is that they feel... un-special. Let me try to explain. Mystra has seven or eight Chosen as Alleran points out. Why is that necessary? If it were just Elminster that would have been enough for me. If you add in the Simbul that would have been enough for me. If it had just been Elminster, the Simbul, and one of the others, to me that would be enough - but more than that it feels like there are too many. Thus, when you're talking about "the Chosen" you're talking about a 'group who is special' as opposed to 'individuals who are special'.
Think of it in terms of Conan. Conan is special because he is one of a kind. He is feared because he is powerful. Now imagine if there had been seven or eight other Conan's. Suddenly, Conan's special-ness becomes diluted. He is no longer unique. He is one of many.
Elminster would have been more special had he been the only Chosen of Mystra. However, because he is not, his special-ness is now devalued, and that devalued special-ness trickles down to the players. They begin to see the Forgotten Realms exactly as you and your group sees it, even though, if you look past everything that has been tacked on it really is not like that at all.
There was a point in time where you did not need to have the ear of a deity or be a Chosen to be special in the Realms. Now, it feels like you do. To me that is wrong, it has killed the soul and core of the Realms.
Ultimately this comes down to personal preference. Some people don't mind. Some people do. I'm a person who does and for me it is a matter of flavor. It is kind of like seasoning food. Everyone has different tastes. What is too much seasoning for me might be too much for you and vise versa.
and perception or not, 4E is actually addressing an issue that I felt WAS a problem. I just felt that it took a sledgehammer instead of tweaking.
I'm not sure what you thought was the problem? That the Realm's didn't accurately reflect high fantasy play? If that's the case it is because most of it was not designed with tons of epic wizards and the like in mind. It had more of a sword and sorcery feel rather than what has been inflicted upon it.
Alleran -
And I'd still prefer it if you could provide an answer to the issues I raised over the two premises I questioned earlier. Specifically, how/why you think Mystra has too many Chosen when she only has ten "regularly mentioned" ones (of which, I noted that two are now dead and one is barely ever seen in the mainstream Realms)...
Read what I said to Charles above as to why I think Mystra has too many Chosen.
...and examples of centuries-old-wizards who aren't archmages in some way, shape or form.
That statement is based on the premise that there are a lot of centuries old wizards running around. If you are a centuries old wizard then you are probably a decent level - at least 11th, I'd imagine. Level 11 is the level you need to be to become a Lich if I remember correctly.
However, even before you get to that point you need to overcome some obstacles, most of which you have no control over. First, you need to actually have the intelligence to learn magic. Then you need someone to teach you. Then you need enough intelligence, inclination and ability to advance to higher levels of study (read: cast higher level spells). The type of intelligence required in order to do that is exceptionally rare. Ten or eleven intelligence is considered normal range for Humans. Having higher intelligence is exceptionally rare. Most Wizards would have intelligence that hovered around 13 or 14 and most of them would not even reach their full potential.
However, let us pretend that you overcome the odds. You are now a level 11 Wizard. You are pretty much, at this point in time, one of the finest Wizards around. You have gone pretty much as far as most humans can go. You are probably reaching the end of your life, but if you are exceptionally gifted you might be middle aged. In either event if you want to extend your life there are a number of options. A popular form is Lichdom, of course that is an evil route and you are Neutral Good. Hmmm… There is that life-stealing spell that you can cast on others, draining away their vitality and youth and gaining it for yourself. Of course, that is not particularly good either. There are various other forms of Undead you could embrace…
The best option you have are Potions of Longevity. Of course, they too have their drawbacks. (As a side note I think the conception of potions that help you extend your life is utterly ridiculous.)
So pretty much, you are going to die normally, which means you will never get to age a few centuries let alone an Archmage. That leaves folks like Elminster who managed to get past that little hurtle by becoming a Chosen. That means most of the powerful Archmages who live forever are at best inclined toward goals that are more nefarious. Of course, you still have to take into account that even with all of this these individuals still make up something like 0.0000001% of the world.
In order to even become a Wizard in the first place you need to have exceptional luck not only in genetics and personal drive but also in life. That just is not in the cards for most people.
I agree with that. My problem with the Chosen is not what they stand for or them as individuals. If it were just Elminster and one or two others I really wouldn't have a problem with it.
Actually, I had no problem with the Seven Sisters because it was a cool name and they were interesting characters. You had Dove and Storm whose Chosen Status doesn't mitigate the fact they're extremely weak and really can't do anything. You could just have them be the Daughters of Mystra and it works just as well.
Likewise, Khelben the Blackstaff doesn't actually need to be Chosen of Anything to be the character that he is. His role is the Archmage of Waterdeep and to be the Severus Snape of the Good Guys, constantly doing what needs to be done despite being a dislikable
Elminster is the only one that I think needs the status because a large part of his role as the setting's narrator is being the Merlin archetype (Ed Greenwood tends to claim that Elminster isn't Merlin but he's actually fairly closer to the original legends than Gandalf types).
I actually like them as characters first and foremost while their Chosen status is really immaterial.
My problem with Mystra's Chosen specifically is that they feel... un-special. Let me try to explain. Mystra has seven or eight Chosen as Alleran points out. Why is that necessary? If it were just Elminster that would have been enough for me. If you add in the Simbul that would have been enough for me. If it had just been Elminster, the Simbul, and one of the others, to me that would be enough - but more than that it feels like there are too many. Thus, when you're talking about "the Chosen" you're talking about a 'group who is special' as opposed to 'individuals who are special'.
I understand what you're saying Meldread but I think part of the issue is that you seem to be assigning specialness to something that became special because it's popular. The Chosen of Mystra was never meant to be a multi-god thing. It was meant to be something specifically only that Mystra did.
The expansion of this opened a lot of interesting storylines. Cadderly of The Cleric's Quintet could just be a awesome cleric and the books would change not a bit but they tacked it onto him and it works. Also, seriously, there's no indication that Cyric's making Malik his Proxy of Lies is Chosen Status but there it is. Now clearly, you could say this has diluted the initial impact of Elminster. What I'm going to say is it's impossible NOT to dilute the impact.
Let me name some other elements.
* Good Dark Elves: The Realms has been indulated with Drizzt clones in almost every FR gamer's early works until it became a giant joke. However, Ed Greenwood ran with it and created an entire religion based around good Dark Elves.
* Moonblades: Elaine Cunningham herself has complained that the Realms ran wild with the Moonblades. They were lowered repeatedly from their original requirements for maximum playability factor and became something entirely different from what she intended.
* Shades: This is more the Developer's fetish but Artemis Entreri is a Shade. There's Erevis Cale. There's Shades is every
book that they seem to put out nowadays. All because some guy said "I think Shades are really cool."I think it's important to remember that the Realms exist as a business property and what works will be more or less milked into the ground if it strikes a chord with gamers. Seriously, have you ever stopped to think how many books they've done on Dark Elves despite them existing in Greyhawk and other settings?
In Dragonlance, we've got Raistlin Majere. Then the Raistlin Majere sequel trilogy. Fine and dandy. Then there's Palin Majere, whose a Raistlin Majere clone but good. Then there's HIS son whose a clone of HIM and thankfully they decided to nip that in the bud before it spread (Saga helped kill Dragonlance as a whole after all). But let's not forget the Soulforge and Brothers in Arms.
Hell, one could argue TSR milked the entire Heroes of the Lance with like 40 books of their adventures because they had a popular series.
Think of it in terms of Conan. Conan is special because he is one of a kind. He is feared because he is powerful. Now imagine if there had been seven or eight other Conan's. Suddenly, Conan's special-ness becomes diluted. He is no longer unique. He is one of many.
Yes, which boils down to the fact that I don't actually consider the Chosen being what makes the Seven Sisters interesting. It's really just something tacked onto the characters that makes sense only in the context of their backstory.
The real question is "Does it make them better characters?" I'd say that it adds up the "kewl" factor, which is really something that you can't avoid in Fantasy novel.
Fanboys love their Fanboy quality work.
*Warning* Harsh Language in these two comics
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/05/19
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Elminster would have been more special had he been the only Chosen of Mystra. However, because he is not, his special-ness is now devalued, and that devalued special-ness trickles down to the players. They begin to see the Forgotten Realms exactly as you and your group sees it, even though, if you look past everything that has been tacked on it really is not like that at all.
Elminster would have probably been LESS special had he not been the Chosen of Mystra at all but just the random sage that gave the PCs advice and possibly was on the cover of a lot of novels. I love Volotamp to death but honestly, my player characters have repeatedly asked "Why should I care? He's just a guy. At least Elminster, we sort of HAVE to put up with him."
And Meldread, I've actually run campaigns where the PCs are just common bandits not demigods as well as games that never actually left the Wharfs of Baldur's Gate. The issue becomes that, ironically, because they're Chosen. They become IRRELEVANT to the PC's lives.
There was a point in time where you did not need to have the ear of a deity or be a Chosen to be special in the Realms. Now, it feels like you do. To me that is wrong, it has killed the soul and core of the Realms.
The issue seems to be that you honestly don't have a sufficient idea on how to make them special. The place of the Forgotten Realms game supplements is to provide player characters with the tools necessary to make them feel special.
It's a very over the top setting and for me, the solution isn't to say "Your character can special just being an average joe."
If your players come to you and say "I want to be Superman" in DCU, then why not let him be Superman?
Why are you trying to make him the Question. The Realms is what it is and the original Realms, while certainly awesome, also didn't exactly draw me the way that the Post-TOT world did.
Ultimately this comes down to personal preference. Some people don't mind. Some people do. I'm a person who does and for me it is a matter of flavor. It is kind of like seasoning food. Everyone has different tastes. What is too much seasoning for me might be too much for you and vise versa.
Very true.
I'm not sure what you thought was the problem? That the Realm's didn't accurately reflect high fantasy play? If that's the case it is because most of it was not designed with tons of epic wizards and the like in mind. It had more of a sword and sorcery feel rather than what has been inflicted upon it.
20th level is the highest I allow any NPC to reach in my Forgotten Realms, so you may want to pause on those comments. If any NPC is allowed to rise above 20th level, it's only so they become plot devices. Elminster is a 20th CL character in my games with no real benefits from being Chosen, it's just his title and ditto the others.
So, overall, my problem was that I appreciate them trying to drastically tone down the magic. I don't appreciate them destroying entire regions.
Read what I said to Charles above as to why I think Mystra has too many Chosen.
Yes, and I don't think it is sufficient to support your argument.
That statement is based on the premise that there are a lot of centuries old wizards running around
No, it is not. What it is, is a response to the complaint that Chosen of Mystra are powerful. They have been around for centuries, and Elminster has been kicking around for what, a millennia or so now? They have survived that long, building on their knowledge and serving Mystra, and thus, it is only common sense that they will have picked up a number of "levels" in that time.
As such, in order to prove the complaint of centuries-old wizards being too powerful, you must provide examples of centuries-old wizards not being archmages in some way, shape or form.
That's just plain hilarious.
What a stupid idea!
-And, I am happy to say, I was not the DM.
Well, actually...ShowThere was a Chosen of Deneir before Cadderly--Pertelope. So, the reason for the existence of such a Chosen couldn't only be because what was happening in one particular church that Cadderly happened to be a novice in.
As far as power progression goes, I thought Cadderly gained power way too fast, and he always seemed to be able to do exactly what was needed with his magic (that is, there wasn't that much heavy-duty problem solving).
I some what agree with you. In my realms, your average soldier would be around lvl 1 or 2. Seasoned veterans might make it to lvl 4 or 5. Hardcore adventurers get around levels 7-10. Powerful rulers, or leaders of organizations might make it to 15th level. After that, you become a real power in the realms.
Take the current campaign that I am running. The players started out at level 1, and now they are all lvl 9. At this point, they are reknowned heros throughout the nation of Impiltur. Random people will walk up and offer to buy them drinks, young maidens swoon in thier presence. Do they feel less special because the chosen are better known and higher level? Not at all. It's their story, and they are the stars of the show. It's my job as the DM to make it that way. Never once have iconic characters been a hinderance. Infact, since the characters are iconic, the fact that those characters begin to treat them with deference should make them even more special.
Ohh... and as a side tangent, regarding your wizard example... I don't think it should take centuries to make it to 11th level. If said wizard was part of a steady adventuring group, he would more than likley be able to reach that point in a few decades. So perhaps in his 40's. He defied the odds, survived the dangerous life of an adventuring group, and perhaps gained some notariety taking down some nasty beast or two. Intelligence wise, if he started at 13 int, he would have two ability raises, and at least one age bonus to int, giving him 16 int and allowing him to cast the highest possible level spell at his level. Manshoon and Gromph are several centuries old wizards, and they are around ecl 22 or so.
4) All of the above was taken into consideration, and the new 4E Realms has been designed from the ground up to fit the false perception that has been created.
Remember that 4E isn't only about the Realms. IIRC, you were speaking of 4E in general and how it was designed.
The 4E rules are surely the product of other influences besides just what happened with the Realms setting (for example, the constantly mentioned MMOs--and I'm not saying that they are a bad influence, necessarily, but they are almost certainly an influence).
Now, do you agree or disagree with the above assertions and if so why? If not, then we are in agreement. If you take one point and not the others, you miss the point entirely and the argument is irrelevant, because the opinion of Mystra's Chosen is ultimately irrelevant, because it isn't about them as characters.
So if someone disagrees with you, it's because they've "missed the point entirely."
You drive a hard bargain.
You had Dove and Storm whose Chosen Status doesn't mitigate the fact they're extremely weak and really can't do anything.
Uh, not in the published Realms.
Check out the novel Stormlight, as well as the Knights of Myth Drannor novels (assuming you're inclined to).I agree with you though--I like the Chosen of Mystra as characters, and I don't think of them as being "less special" because there is more than one or two who share Mystra's Burden.
Indeed, it all comes down to taste.
Uh, not in the published Realms.
I agree with you though--I like the Chosen of Mystra as characters, and I don't think of them as being "less special" because there is more than one or two who share Mystra's Burden.
Indeed, it all comes down to taste.
1. Yes, your point? They're adventurers. 4th Level Sembians could accomplish things but the simple fact is that they're not in Khelben or El's league (Or the Simbul or Alustriel etc).
2. Thanks.
My general point is that not all the Chosen are God-Like Wizards.
ShowYes, there was a chosen of Denier before him. However, Cadderly was seemingly made a chosen in order to rebuild the order after a major church was destroyed. It could be argued that the entire church had some what drifted from the tenents of the faith. Instead of pursuing learning, they had fallen into complacency. It seems that destroying the Chaos Curse, and creating the spirit soaring were the main reasons for Cadderly becoming chosen.
1. Yes, your point? They're adventurers.
Ouch! That was a bit rude. I'm not being rude to you, am I?
4th Level Sembians could accomplish things but the simple fact is that they're not in Khelben or El's league (Or the Simbul or Alustriel etc).
We are talking of Dove and Storm? My point is that they are not weak characters who can't do anything (that's how you described them).
2. Thanks.
Welcome.
My general point is that not all the Chosen are God-Like Wizards.
No, they aren't. But not being a god-like wizard doesn't make one "weak". That was what I wanted to point out.
Ouch! That was a bit rude. I'm not being rude to you, am I?
We seem to discuss things very differently. I don't consider making light of comments to reflect on posters nor would hold it against you if you did.
No, they aren't. But not being a god-like wizard doesn't make one "weak". That was what I wanted to point out.
By comparison, Alusair is very weak and so is Drizzt. It's all relative but you'd be wrong to say that they aren't.
It's rude to make light of comments? I don't agree that's a valid argument, so I thought I'd point out that it didn't give sufficient clarity.
You said (or implied) that Dove and Storm were weak. I disagreed, and even cited some sources that I believe support my opinion. That was my point. That's why I thought the "yes, your point?" comment was snippy. In fact, comments in that vein usually are.
And now, I'll let it go.
Just because I like to poke holes in argument in a funny manner, shouldn't always be attacked I think.
If you did, I wouldn't think you're rude.
Well, I'm glad to know you weren't intending to be rude. I figured you weren't, but I wanted to let you know what I thought.
By comparison, Alusair is very weak and so is Drizzt. It's all relative but you'd be wrong to say that they aren't.
Well, you'd have to specify who you are comparing them to. I also would rarely ever agree with describing a character as "not really able to do anything" (especially if they are mid to high level), whether you are comparing them to someone else or not.
ShowIf the book made it out as if the entire faith was becoming corrupt (it's been a long time since I read these novels, mind you), then, well, I'm certainly not "buying" what RAS was selling back then. Simply put, I think that's pretty dumb.
Nevertheless, I can concede that it would be canon (unfortunately).
Hmmm. I may not be the best person to discuss this, actually, as I am quite biased against those books.ShowIf the book made it out as if the entire faith was becoming corrupt (it's been a long time since I read these novels, mind you), then, well, I'm certainly not "buying" what RAS was selling back then. Simply put, I think that's pretty dumb.
Nevertheless, I can concede that it would be canon (unfortunately).
Nevertheless, I can concede that it would be canon
It depends on how exactly you see the Order of Deneir. The implications from the book were that there actually wasn't any faith beyond the Order of Deneir's walls of any significant note. It's pretty much the equivalent of Deneir's Vatican and it's a pretty poor looking Vatican to begin with.
I do think that Cadderly was meant to "refound" the Deneir order though. Bob Salvatore stole (and I mean stole in a very good way) large portions of New Testament imagery here, right down to the "I will destroy the Temple and rebuild it in three days" style rebirth.
I think Bob did a good job of showing that Cadderly's entire adventures up until that point where to harden him up (including killing his own father) for the ultimate act of becoming the Deneir Order's new Head and Chosen of the faith.
Deneir put all of his cards on Cadderly.
I some what agree with you. In my realms, your average soldier would be around lvl 1 or 2. Seasoned veterans might make it to lvl 4 or 5. Hardcore adventurers get around levels 7-10. Powerful rulers, or leaders of organizations might make it to 15th level. After that, you become a real power in the realms.
That is exactly how I see it, and how I felt the setting was designed and intended to be played. That is also how I portray the Realms.
Do they feel less special because the chosen are better known and higher level? Not at all. It's their story, and they are the stars of the show. It's my job as the DM to make it that way. Never once have iconic characters been a hinderance. Infact, since the characters are iconic, the fact that those characters begin to treat them with deference should make them even more special.
Yes, but you see that is a very narrow view of what I am trying to say. It is not about a particular Chosen or even Chosen at all. They are just the most well known and thus the most focused upon. It is all the ultra-high level NPC's throughout the Realms, of which the Chosen just happen to be the most visible.
My problem is with the perception that the novels have created in the minds of many (though certainly not all) who read them. I encourage you to go to a non-Realms related forum and ask people what they think about the Forgotten Realms, and why they choose not to play in the setting. You will find many people who point to the Chosen and other such NPC's as a problem and claim that it is a world filled with epic characters.
While we know this is not true, that is the perception created by the many novels that focus upon them. Thus when new players come to the game they expect to play those types of characters and when they don't they feel as if they are somehow less important. Thus, because of this, the setting is changing to accommodate those types of players.
Ohh... and as a side tangent, regarding your wizard example... I don't think it should take centuries to make it to 11th level. If said wizard was part of a steady adventuring group, he would more than likley be able to reach that point in a few decades. So perhaps in his 40's. He defied the odds, survived the dangerous life of an adventuring group, and perhaps gained some notariety taking down some nasty beast or two. Intelligence wise, if he started at 13 int, he would have two ability raises, and at least one age bonus to int, giving him 16 int and allowing him to cast the highest possible level spell at his level. Manshoon and Gromph are several centuries old wizards, and they are around ecl 22 or so.
That depends on how you play it. :P
What you say might be true for adventurers, but the vast majority of wizards are not Adventurers. Adventuring Wizards to more traditional lock-yourself-away-in-the-library-and-study-wizards are untrained and unprofessional. They might be able to hurl a magic missile, but do they REALLY understand the complexities behind what makes the magic missile work? It's mostly a fluff thing. A wizard who adventures generally has a very different attitude than the vast majority of Wizards throughout Toril.
Adventurers make up a minority within a minority.
I sincerely doubt that makes any difference though. Big still sells.
-Again? He seems to be making a hobby of that...
LOL!
I love what was said about Sune in those books--basically, it was mentioned that Sune was the goddess of mere physical passion and not true love.
It depends on how exactly you see the Order of Deneir. The implications from the book were that there actually wasn't any faith beyond the Order of Deneir's walls of any significant note. It's pretty much the equivalent of Deneir's Vatican and it's a pretty poor looking Vatican to begin with.
If that was indeed what the book was trying to imply, it was quite wrong (what about Candlekeep? Twilight Hall?).
I think Bob did a good job of showing that Cadderly's entire adventures up until that point where to harden him up (including killing his own father) for the ultimate act of becoming the Deneir Order's new Head and Chosen of the faith.
Ah yes, the "Luke I am your father" scene.
But if you liked the novels, hey--I'm not going to say that you shouldn't.
In conclusion, we'd all like to see the focus of novels shifted to less epic content for a while.
I sincerely doubt that makes any difference though. Big still sells.
Apparently that is the case.
Always nice to see extra support for smaller-scale stories, though.
Bonzai-
Adventurers make up a minority within a minority.
Lol, I will say that is one thing I did like about Ed's novels. He wasn't shy about bringing in adventuring groups, and having them all meet a grisly death.
Anyways... I guess I have a hard time with the perception that you are playing devil's advocate for. In all my realms games, this it has never been a problem. To me, the world is always how the DM portrays it. Novels are novels, and they may forward some of the Meta-plot, but the epic characters generally are absent during the first 10 levels or so, and rarely encountered past that. Usually I find a DM that can't work around epic signature characters, usually isn't trying hard enough.
It's not really about my games. It's about the 4E FR Setting and how the novels have influenced it and other people's games.
If I deal with well known NPC's they become whatever level I need them to be. If you are playing a game where your a group of Zhent assassins sent off to kill Elminster, and the entire group is level 5, Elminster will be beatable by the group. He might be a hard SOB to take down but he'll be killable.
Then later on when playing different characters, perhaps Harpers, they may discover that Elminster is still alive. When wondering how it is possible, they'll uncover something like the Zhent Agent who sent the (former PC characters) to kill Elminster was really a Harper Agent who had infiltrated the Zhents. Elminster essentially would have used the PC's to fake his own death, and had a stasis clone ready in a safe location for when he died. I'd then tie it into whatever plot I am currently weaving around the Harpers that happens to involve Elminster.
Etc. Etc.
Although, personally, I prefer to completely ignore such characters all together.
What I would have liked to see (and at this point I feel is ultimately irrelevant in light of 4E FR) is a more balanced look at the Realms. Sure, powerful individuals like the Chosen exist, but the vast, vast vast majority of individuals are lowly common folk. There needed to be more focus on the everyday NPC's and less focus on the epic characters so that people as a whole could have gotten a better picture of what the Realms was like.
Believe it or not, I actually do think there is a market for less uber-powered characters in novels. Look at other works of fantasy that don't include such characters and you'll quickly see that there are individuals who have such a preference. Although, admittedly, at this point I do not think that applies to the majority of the FR Novel readers.
Part of the problem I have personally is that my taste has changed with time, and is no longer really compatible with D&D in general. Because the Realms is so heavily entrenched in D&D it has begun to strain my love for the setting.
The Simbul has eloquently reminded the readers of the responsibility of the DM for his or her players' enjoyment in the fictional word of the Forgotten Realms, which should take predecence over any other concern, also including the canon material, if needed. However, there are some flaws in the arguments she (I respectfully refer to the user The Simbul with feminine pronoun; if I am mistaken with it, then please correct me) makes and which her supporters have made.
In the scheme of things, perception is important and unfortunately to many the perception holds that the Seven Sisters and the rest of the Chosen of Mystra (not forgetting other high-level characters to be found in Faerûn) are, indeed, involved in EVERYTHING and that (especially Mystra's Chosen) enjoy such divine support that they are all but unassailable. While this is the problem with any character with sufficient levels in any campaign setting, the Chosen (hereafter the Chosen of Mystra are referred to as the Chosen only) are even more troublesome than usual.
Consider the events of Elminster in Hell: divine Mystra personally engaged armies of devils to free Elminster, her Chosen, from entrapment and evisceration in fiendish hands. A greater goddess entered the kingdom of Asmodeus, slew countless devils (not including the number of devils already destroyed by the Simbul), caused a bout of insanity in Overlord of Hells and personally rescued Elminster. is there ANY other character who could even dimly hope for a similar rescue? Is there any other way to more seriously humiliate the power of the Nine Hells and therefore the threat they pose?
Oh, it is true that Elminster carries some of Mystra's divine essence in him, so his rescue was rather necessary. But doesn't that mean that even if a party of PCs come near to killing the Sage of Shadowdale, Mystra will intervene, no matter what? She cares little for divine politics, if she dared to invade the Nine Hells and risk imminent collision between the Prime Material and the Hells (the reason given why she retreated so quickly) just for one man. One, single mortal man. So why wouldn't she do the same on Faerûn, even if Elminster's opponents are favored by some other deity (and how many deities could muster even remotely similar power as the Lady of Mysteries)?
This is the troublesome perception. That the Chosen are so essential, so important, that they are simply unassailable by the virtue of having almost literal deus ex machina to back them up. And by the same token it is directly written in Storm Silverhand's writeup in FRCS that Mystra has a habit of occasionally saving her from certain death. Oh yes, she doesn't count on it, but it is known to happen. Is there any more infuriating way to whisk away a villain's success (be it an NPC or PC) than this?
Of course these things don't happen if the DM doesn't allow it (and surely even Mystra has her limits in how much she is willing to help out her Chosen), but the perception remains and the facts on which it is grounded.
Let us leave the involvement of Mystra for a while and let's take a look at the influence of the Chosen, shall we? Lady Alustriel influences the Silver Marches to a great extent and it could be argued rather succesfully that she would be more than willing to involve herself in matters directly involved with the nation she has helped to found. She was willing to help the defenders of the Mithral Hall when the drow forces of Menzoberranzan attacked it; surely she will respond in similar way if a foreign power threatens the Silver Marches. And any change within will surely pass before her eyes before it truly takes place. If the DM's plot involves somehow turning the Silver Marches into a more tyrannical and paranoid nation, he has to reason why Lady Alustriel hasn't prevented it. And elsewhere we are told that the Simbul is the single most important reason why the Red Wizards haven't subjugated Aglarond. The former apprentice of Elminster now rules as a King of Tethyr; for a long time, Khelben Arunsun was involved in the Lords' Alliance of the state of Waterdeep, thus enjoying immense influence in the North and the Sword Coast. This would be the same, naturally, if they were "merely" high-level or Epic-level characters, but the fact that they are all Chosen of Mystra and almost universally work together make it even harder to work around and strengthens the perception of the Realms as a place where PCs are merely side characters, not protagonists.
And let's talk about raw power, shall we? The Simbul is said to be so powerful that Red Wizards are known to faint at the very thought of facing her. It is only by the divine decree of Mystra herself that she didn't try to slaughter the Red Wizards entirely! How can you perceive them as a credible threat if ONE person could do so? On these very boards some people have expressed the opinion that the Simbul could destroy the zulkirs themselves, even if they banded together under the fearsome Zulkir of Necromancy! And that somehow she could outwit the notoriously intelligent Szass Tam and locate and destroy his phylactery without any real effort. We are talking about insanely intelligent and powerful lich, who has survived over two hundred years in an environment that could make the drow society look tame in comparison. And all that time he has remained the proverbial king of the hill. Mystra's decree is an almost artificial limitation, put to place just to keep the Red Wizards around.
So why wouldn't someone formulate the opinion that the Chosen are too powerful? Too eager to meddle? Too favored? The reason for their Chosen status is to keep the divine essence of Mystra somehow alive or contained, but they are not beholden to her will in the same manner as a cleric would be, but act rather independently, sometimes forcing the goddess to make personal decrees for their behavior. And yet the Goddess of Magic comes to the rescue when they are seriously threatened. To many, they appear to be the perfect DMPCs, always more powerful, always more important than the PCs.
Certainly one can enjoy a scenario, a campaign or a novel which doesn't include the influence of these Chosen, even though it might have some relevance. Such is the exemplarily well done book Haunted Lands II: Undead. But what started to bother me at some point was that what was the Simbul, a known hater of the Red Wizards, doing during the Thayan civil war? The Red Wizards were busily slaughtering each other and endangering many innocents in their war for power and no longer advancing the overall state of magic. Surely Mystra, given her good alignment, would have given her arguably most powerful Chosen right to act in some capacity to end the war sooner. Of course, FR deities are not constrained by the alignment so much (and Mystra doubtly so, considering her LE worshippers despite her NG nature) and perhaps the Simbul simply enjoyed seeing her hated foes destroying each other with such glee that she didn't interfere. Naturally, she might actually be... afraid, be it heresy or not to say so, afraid of the zulkirs and especially Szass Tam. That they might kill her. Now, that does support FRCS's "Concerns of the Mighty" sidebar, but unfortunately it doesn't fit well with the established canon (or the opinion of many who visit these boards), where the Simbul as reckless, almost insane, spiteful of any danger, and willing to assault the Hells themselves. To the author's credit, he focused on the Thayans and didn't blather about the various concerns of the Chosen. He ignored them.
The DM - and the storyteller - is responsible for the enjoyment of his players/audience. If something is unnecessary or could hamper the story and the enjoyment, he cuts it away, or in other words, ignores it. Unfortunately the Chosen are viewed (along with some other high-level NPCs, no doubt) as distraction at best, outright story killers at worst by many, so they face that ignoring. But there are those who'd like to stay close to the official Realms which happens to include the Chosen and their ilk. If they simply ignore them, the players might start asking uncomfortable questions; and if not, they have to come up with various different reasons for their absence. It is the same with many, many other campaign settings, bu in the Realms, it is pandemic. And the Chosen are the symbol of it.
These players and DMs come to these boards to seek advice and counsel. Some ARE trolls, basically kindergarten menaces calling people names and maliciously teasing their favorite toys and stories; but most are simply frusfrated, confused and maybe even desparate. It should be priority to HELP them, not to say that "you are wrong" or "you don't understand, silly boy" or anything similar. And although The Simbul gives good advice, it is coupled with somewhat condescending attitude and a manner of some smug and irritated all-knowing scholar. Many might even be discouraged by such words, despite their helpful advice. Nobody likes when someone acts "holier-than-thou"; and nobody likes when their concerns and opinions are ridiculed (although admittedly The Simbul didn't actually do so, but many expressed such opinions afterwards in the wake of her opening post). And, perish the thought, maybe the Chosen are written in a wrong manner when compared to the intended one, if so many find them irritable and questionable.
As I have oft said, perception carries much weight. We should all do well to remember that.
Oh, it is true that Elminster carries some of Mystra's divine essence in him, so his rescue was rather necessary.
This, yes. Check a few responses down.
But doesn't that mean that even if a party of PCs come near to killing the Sage of Shadowdale, Mystra will intervene, no matter what?
Elminster will probably just be whisked away to Safehold by his Elminster's Evasion contingency anyway. Elminster dying to the PCs, however, is a bit different than an archdevil potentially gaining the secrets of silver fire and so on.
She cares little for divine politics,
At the time of Elminster in Hell, you would be correct. However, in the last book of the Avatar series and Elminster's Daughter, she grew into her role and now does pay attention to the Balance and other divine politics.
if she dared to invade the Nine Hells and risk imminent collision between the Prime Material and the Hells (the reason given why she retreated so quickly) just for one man. One, single mortal man. So why wouldn't she do the same on Faerûn, even if Elminster's opponents are favored by some other deity (and how many deities could muster even remotely similar power as the Lady of Mysteries)?
Mystra had to, because of the divine essence that Elminster carries. It's a link to the Weave - one of the reasons the archdevil Nergal originally started stealing Elminster's memories and the like to begin with was because he wanted the secret of silver fire. Letting the devil keep Elminster puts the Weave (and subsequently the Balance) at risk, and thus, even if Mystra couldn't care less about Elminster, she would have been required to act anyway.
The Simbul is said to be so powerful that Red Wizards are known to faint at the very thought of facing her.
She's a 30th level caster (well, by 3/3.5, she's a 22nd Sorc and 10th Wiz, IIRC), but in any case, she has 32 spellcasting levels, plus the Chosen template. Of course a level 5-12 wizard is going to faint at the thought of confronting that (even 16-20th would be a bit careful) - indeed, them not being worried is more cause for alarm, I would think. And one of her spells (Simbul's Spell Matrix, I believe) specifically states that it is one of the main reasons that she has been able to survive as long as she has.
To many, they appear to be the perfect DMPCs, always more powerful, always more important than the PCs.
Personally, I like the idea that there's always a bigger fish. I've had high-level Epic characters before (as in, 30+ character levels), and been planehopping, but the characters always realised (and accepted - they agree with the view) that there are some things you just don't go near, whether that be the Chosen (though by that point, they'd more or less matched said Chosen in individual power), CR40+ Epic opponents, Abominations, avatars of deities, and so on and so forth.
To many, they appear to be the perfect DMPCs, always more powerful, always more important than the PCs.
They're freaking Plot Devices. Like Galadriel and Elrond. Their levels mean nothing because they can't take care of a cavern of Kobolds without sending the PCs to do it.
Their levels mean nothing because they can't take care of a cavern of Kobolds without sending the PCs to do it.
I remember one DM saying "okay" when the PCs (5th to 8th level) just wanted a high-level NPC (I think it was Dove) to take care of a goblinoid problem. Said NPC did so, and actually gained a level from it. The PCs received no experience. When they complained, it was pointed out to them that since their characters didn't do anything, they wouldn't receive any experience.
For the recond, I don't think the Simbul could easily destroy all the Red Wizards of Thay without any possible harm to herself. In my opinion, if they were so easy to defeat, they probably would never have become a threat in the first place.
I remember one DM saying "okay" when the PCs (5th to 8th level) just wanted a high-level NPC (I think it was Dove) to take care of a goblinoid problem. Said NPC did so, and actually gained a level from it. The PCs received no experience. When they complained, it was pointed out to them that since their characters didn't do anything, they wouldn't receive any experience.
*laughs* Sounds perfectly fair to me.
I remember one DM saying "okay" when the PCs (5th to 8th level) just wanted a high-level NPC (I think it was Dove) to take care of a goblinoid problem. Said NPC did so, and actually gained a level from it. The PCs received no experience. When they complained, it was pointed out to them that since their characters didn't do anything, they wouldn't receive any experience.
The players once hired Artemis Entreri to kill a villain of theirs. I gave them half-EXP because they RPGed hiring him and it was within his abilities.
But here's my answer....
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991908
The players once hired Artemis Entreri to kill a villain of theirs. I gave them half-EXP because they RPGed hiring him and it was within his abilities.
In my opinion, that's fine. The players were actually roleplaying their characters. I'm in favor of docking EXP for those who are just being complainers ("If X is around, why don't they just do it?").
Were you reading the same quote? It deals with exactly one thing: a hostile force (Bane, in the example) attempting to use Mystra's Chosen against her, and why it would fail. You can quite easily substitute in Cyric or Talos in place of Bane, and I don't see what the issue with Shar is. Just because she can use the Shadow Weave doesn't mean she will be any more able to forcibly remove the silver fire from a Chosen.
Mystra had to, because of the divine essence that Elminster carries. It's a link to the Weave - one of the reasons the archdevil Nergal originally started stealing Elminster's memories and the like to begin with was because he wanted the secret of silver fire. Letting the devil keep Elminster puts the Weave (and subsequently the Balance) at risk, and thus, even if Mystra couldn't care less about Elminster, she would have been required to act anyway.
Those two statements seem to contradict one another. If according to Ed Bane can't remove Silver Fire from a Chosen, what hope does the Ruler of the Nine Hells have? And if that quote from Ed you posted is correct (why Bane would utterly fail) then it seems to contradict the entire premise of Mystra entering into Hell in the first place. (And if I am not mistaken Ed wrote the book.)
So if Asmodeus had no real chance at getting his hands on Silver Fire, as Ed explained Bane would not, then why would Mystra do what you described above in post #786 when it would have been utterly irrelevant?
Either way it is irrelevant to me. I just ignored that whole story. If Mystra tried that in my campaign world she would have been taken care of before Cyric even got the chance to kill her. Entering into the Hells or Abyss as a deity is somewhat like entering Sigil as a deity, but with far worse consequences, though I am sure my version of Asmodeus would love to try and tempt her to show up.
Having it that way is the only logical method to explain why some deities (such as the Lawful Evil Bane) have not already attempted to invade the Nine Hells and overthrow Asmodeus and enslave the rest of the devils under his command. This is "fixed" in 4E by making Asmodeus a Greater Deity, though, but at the time he was not.
Plus, the whole story is ridiculous not only because of the above, but it failed to take into account the politics in hell and what this defeat would do to Asmodeus. Hell isn't really the type of place where you want to show weakness, especially when you have ambitious people under you just waiting for you to slip up so they can take your place. Something like this could cause problems in Hell which could potentially cause problems throughout the rest of the planes, and all of it would be on Mystra's shoulders.
...which brings me back to a point where I made earlier that it would have made more sense to have trusted fragments of Mystra's Essence and the Weave with other deities than mortals. Deities such as Selune, Azuth and Savras, who Mystra knew she could trust. Had she done that the Spellplague and the unraveling of the Weave might have been avoidable because another deity would have been able to immediately step in to take her place at the very moment of her death.
Anyway, like I said, it is completely irrelevant to my Realms, but it still irks me that something that dumb was made cannon.
Disciple of Darkness-
You made a good post. You should post more often. It was very well thought out and beautifully articulated.
For the recond, I don't think the Simbul could easily destroy all the Red Wizards of Thay without any possible harm to herself. In my opinion, if they were so easy to defeat, they probably would never have become a threat in the first place.
I believe Ed has stated that the Simbul was planning to at one point completely reduce Thay to a pile of ash or something. However, because Thay is now Thaymart and spreading magic, Mystra intervened and asked her not to do it. Ed was very clear that it was within the Simbul's power to carry it out and there was little to nothing the Red Wizards could do to stop her. The only thing that prevented her from carrying out her plan was her respect for Mystra or some such.
Frankly, I don't much like the idea of that, but I've toyed with running with it. My idea was something along the lines of this:
The Simbul decides to destroy Thay and in order to cast her crazy powerful epic spell she needs the captured essence of a dying god. This leads her to tracking down one of the Lost Seven Gods called Tyranthraxus the Flamed One. However, Tyranthraxus learns of her plot, leads her into a trap, and then possesses her. (The Simbul isn't exactly known for her cunning plans, and although she could have successfully taken on Tyranthraxus he simply outsmarted her. Brains over raw power FTW!)
Now instead of the Simbul, you have some type of twisted hybrid with mostly Tyranthraxus dominating - though you may occasionally see parts of the Simbul's personality coming through. This powerful hybrid being, which I shall now call Simbulraxus, manages to maintain the Simbul's hatred of Red Wizards.
As a result of this, Simbulraxus, appearing as the Simbul but surrounded by a nimbus of burning silver fire, shows up in the sky over Thaymount. Long story short, within the hour every living thing (plant, animal and humanoid) is dead within a fifty-mile radius. That would include Tam. Thaymount itself is mostly reduced to a pile of rubble, and the Drow City located under it is completely wiped out as earthquakes cause the caverns that their city existed in to completely collapse. This would put her roughly equal to how Ed considers her to be in terms of power – I figure at least now she would pretty much be a Demigoddess.
Within one years time Thay is completely under her control, the Red Wizards are no more, all of the Simbul's advisors within Aglarond are dead or in hiding. Additionally, any elves left in the Yuirwood will have fled out of fear of her terrible power. The Empire of Aglarond would be born, under the tyrannical rule of the Silver-Flamed Witch Queen, the Simbul.
There would also be one church (which would obviously cause the collapse of the Church of Kossuth in Thay): The Church of the Silver Flame, which is the worship of the Simbul. The Simbul would be roughly as powerful as a demigod, but would be trapped in her mortal form. Many priests of Kossuth will convert to the Silver Flame (out of fear and a feeble hope to maintain their power).
I am unsure what the final product of the Empire might look like but I am leaning toward a caste system simply because it is something different. Anyway, that is irrelevant – all will tremble at the very mention of the Silver Flamed Witch Queen and will avoid using her name out of fear that she might hear them.
A unified Thay and Aglarond, especially united behind a uber powerful being like the Simbul, then can turn her attention to finally crushing the long hated enemies of Thay, and spreading the Empire North and South.
There might be attempts made by the other Chosen to "save" the Simbul, but since she is so powerful, arguably the most powerful of all the Chosen, they would just as likely end up dead. Mystra herself may want to step in but if she sends an avatar, since the Simbul (according to Ed) is strong enough to take out the ENTIRE nation of Thay solo, I am pretty sure as a demigoddess she would be able to take an Avatar of Mystra. If I wanted to be mean, I could dues ex machina Mystra by saying Ao decided to block her direct involvement. (After all that is what Ao is there to be used for - dues ex machina against the gods.)
Anyway, the end result would be the end of Thaymart, and an Evil Wizard Empress that might actually strike fear into the hearts of all who hear her name. It would also go a long way toward redeeming the creditability of the epic level villains throughout the Realms, take away another of Mystra's Chosen, and make a creditable "evil empire" that poses a real threat. In effect, the Simbul would create and become everything that Thay wanted to be but failed to become.
It also gives Tyranthraxus a second chance at a come back in power. Additionally, there are a lot of ways such a plot could go. The PCs could side with Simbulraxus and help expand the Empire, or they could play the good guys and either try and kill the Simbul (an insanely epic battle) or find a way to "save" her by separating her from Tyranthraxus.
There could even be little rebel groups throughout the Empire, that involve sabotage, espionage and all sorts of other skullduggery to undermine the Simbul's rule. That could be something fun for all levels. This doesn't even go into mentioning defending lands against the Empire, or heading up the Simbul's legions as they advance north and south across Faerun. Alternatively, you could play agents and spies for the Simbul in enemy lands, sowing chaos and descent, and converting others to her worship. It opens up hundreds of different plot hooks.
The Simbul-As-Goddess Write Up
The Simbul (Tyranthraxus)
Queen of the Silver Flame, the Witch Queen, the Tyrant of Aglarond
Demigod
Symbol: A Silver Flame
Home Plane: Material Plane
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Portfolio: Silver fire, cunning, scheming, despotism, ambition
Worshipers: Plotters, schemers, ambitious and power hungry arcanists, sorcerers, those living in the Empire of Aglarond
Cleric Alignments: LN, LE, NE
Domains: Law, Evil, Planning, Magic, Knowledge, Destruction, Hatred, Tyranny
Favored Weapon: "The Simbul's Wrath" (Quarterstaff)
Note: Yeah, she stole the secret of Silver Fire from Mystra. :P
Dogma: All power emanates from the Silver Flame. Those who rebel against it stand opposed to the stability that is brought by the Empire. The law exists to bring peace and stability, and those that resist the rule of Imperial Law and the Church of the Silver Flame must be destroyed. There shall be neither law nor church above that of the Silver Flame, and all clergy of other faiths are to be put to death, their temples plundered, and the riches gained used for the benefit of Imperial expansion. Submit to the Silver Flame, or be forced into submission. There is no hope in resisting the Empire. All who kneel before the sign of the Empire and prove successful in their appointed tasks shall be rewarded. The reward for all successful ambition is power. Those who betray the Empire or the Church of the Silver Flame shall doom themselves and their families to a painful death.
Queen of the Silver Flame, the Witch Queen, the Tyrant of Aglarond
Demigod
Symbol: A Silver Flame
Home Plane: Material Plane
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Portfolio: Silver fire, cunning, scheming, despotism, ambition
Worshipers: Plotters, schemers, ambitious and power hungry arcanists, sorcerers, those living in the Empire of Aglarond
Cleric Alignments: LN, LE, NE
Domains: Law, Evil, Planning, Magic, Knowledge, Destruction, Hatred, Tyranny
Favored Weapon: "The Simbul's Wrath" (Quarterstaff)
Note: Yeah, she stole the secret of Silver Fire from Mystra. :P
Dogma: All power emanates from the Silver Flame. Those who rebel against it stand opposed to the stability that is brought by the Empire. The law exists to bring peace and stability, and those that resist the rule of Imperial Law and the Church of the Silver Flame must be destroyed. There shall be neither law nor church above that of the Silver Flame, and all clergy of other faiths are to be put to death, their temples plundered, and the riches gained used for the benefit of Imperial expansion. Submit to the Silver Flame, or be forced into submission. There is no hope in resisting the Empire. All who kneel before the sign of the Empire and prove successful in their appointed tasks shall be rewarded. The reward for all successful ambition is power. Those who betray the Empire or the Church of the Silver Flame shall doom themselves and their families to a painful death.
If according to Ed Bane can't remove Silver Fire from a Chosen, what hope does the Ruler of the Nine Hells have?
-Asmodeus far outclasses Bane, in terms of power. He is the equivalent of a multispheric Greater Deity, whereas Bane is a Greater Deity, but of a single sphere.
I believe Ed has stated that the Simbul was planning to at one point completely reduce Thay to a pile of ash or something.
-Yes, she was on the cusp of going into Thay and taking the offense to them, for once, but Mystra warned her against it. For what it's worth, I don't think she could have actually done it.
However, because Thay is now Thaymart and spreading magic...
-I guess I am the only one that likes that idea, I guess...
-Asmodeus far outclasses Bane, in terms of power. He is the equivalent of a multispheric Greater Deity, whereas Bane is a Greater Deity, but of a single sphere.
Actually, Asmodeus wasn't even a God at this time.
Actually, Asmodeus wasn't even a God at this time.
-Which is why I said "equivalent". Asmodeus isn't, and shouldn't be a deity.
-Which is why I said "equivalent". Asmodeus isn't, and shouldn't be a deity.
Something wicked this way comes.
If Asmodeus in Elminster in Hell was written as an equivalent to a greater deity, then it means that the lore concerning the Nine Hells in Forgotten Realms is false. Player's Guide to Faerûn states that some, as in not all, Lords of the Nine are equal to demigods. And Asmodeus is one of them. So by the established canon The Overlord of Hells is at best a demi-power (whereas 4th Edition is retconning him into a greater power proper).
If Asmodeus is NOT a greater power in his own right, then the two statements concerning Mystra's Silverfire become entirely mutually exclusive. If a greater deity of Bane's power couldn't wrest the secrets of the Silverfire from the Chosen of Mystra, what chance does a lowly demigod have?
Personally, I'm rather fond of the idea of the Red Wizards going mercantile on their enemies. An interesting and logical perspective. If outright conquest is denied, go for subtler methods. Greed is the foundation of all evil, as the Bible says.
It is rather sad to argue over whether the Simbul had a chance to destroy the Wizards and/or their homeland. If she had, that only makes her irritably powerful and reinforces the image that no matter what the PCs do, they will be outshined by the glorious few and that the Chosen are ridiculous deus ex machinas in their own right; if she didn't have a chance, then she is so mentally unbalanced and outright stupid that Mystra should give her Sammaster treatment and withdraw her divine favor, for surely such a madman would have fallen long ago if not for it. Unless, of course, there are circumanstances I'm not aware of (she had just lost someone close to her to a Thayan warlock etc.)
Hello, all. Thy Hooded Lady with a response to the Hells thing.
Ed (yes, that guy, the creator of the Realms and of the Nine Hells as D&D-ers know them, as well as the writer who inflicted Elminster In Hell on a bewildered world) speaks:
The Hooded One has sent me the entire text of the thread thus far, and I must say first off that I'm pleased and impressed that scribes feel so passionately about what is, after all, a series of imaginary creations. There's hope for us all yet! :}
Everyone has the perfect right to hold personal opinions, and I'd be astonished if everyone started to like the same things - - even alarmed: if all the readers in the world shared the same tastes, there'd likely only be one novelist getting published at a time (until burnout and replacement), and it probably wouldn't be me! ;}
There are no definitive answers about matters planar, so I can't give any, and in any case don't want to squash or inhibit debate. Have no fears that 'the displeasure of the Great God Greenwood' is going to descend on anyone. (Uh, that'd be my dad in any case, and I doubt he reads these forums.)
I've no interest in getting into heated debate with anyone over what is "right" or "wrong." After all, El in Hell is published (as amended by its editor), so it's all, in one sense, water under the bridge (or as we longtime Realms toilers inside and outside TSR are wont to say, "we burned that bridge when we were on it, as we always do") and not worth upsetting anyone over.
However, it's worth reminding EVERYONE that Realms publications are all 'work for hire.' In other words, WotC editors can change every word of text between turnover and publication. Not that they always do, by any means, but it's important to remember that authors of Realms novels DON'T have an entirely free hand in determining what you read on the page. El in Hell did get edited, both for length and content details, and the 'mechanics' of the Nine Hells, its archdevils, and Mystra (and what she could do and did) WERE discussed and agreed-upon. So in one sense, if you don't like what was portrayed, tough fudge: you can't change it now, and neither could I then, as I was writing. Don't like the power level of the Lords of the Nine, as portrayed? Don't like the absence of Bel? Too bad. I had to stick to what was official, in the same way that an engineer assigned to design a car will probably get fired if he instead designs a childrens' wading-pool and tries to present it as the finished car. I was given the title "Elminster In Hell," and the opening situation (Elminster having fallen through the rift, descending into Avernus), and was asked to write it (with the promise that if I didn't, someone else would be assigned to write the book). I chose to tackle the task. You've read or not read the result, and like or dislike it, and I can't do anything about that. (I must and do thank the scribes, such as Moonharp, who've noticed what I've been doing with my Realms books.)
What can be of value to everyone interested in running D&D play involving the Nine Hells or writing future Realms fiction ditto is running through some of the specific points of contention. Not to prove anyone right or wrong, but to give a glimpse of the reasoning behind the design decisions.
First, the Nine Hells as portrayed. Simply put, what you see in El in Hell matches not just PGtF, but the 3e Manual of the Planes (the official rules of the D&D game, which I'm bound by as a creator; you can do what you like in your home campaign, but *I* can't when writing WotC products). Aside from adding the Blood War and making minor urban renewal changes to the Bronze Citadel, everything you read in the Manual of the Planes about Avernus and Nessus is as I originally put them into the D&D game, from the very names of both, to the basic concept of Avernus, unchanged through all editions of the game and game lines, that Avernus was the uppermost and most chaotic (least tightly governed and ordered) layer of Hell, where Tiamat could be found, the outcast archdevils who weren't Lords of the Nine lurked and schemed, and all manner of non-native-to-the-Hells visiting creatures could be met with, in a tortured landscape of rivers of blood and a generally dry and rocky terrain, with few green growing plants and much dog-eat-dog hunting and battle. When I wrote El in Hell, PGtF hadn't yet been published, but the Manual of the Planes (which Jeff Grubb had shown me the text of before publication for my suggestions [I was then a paid WotC lore consultant], as he'd done for the first Manual of the Planes) had been, and I was editorially instructed to stick to it in any details of the Nine Hells. "This and only this is official, right now," were among the words used. I can assure all scribes that many of the details folk have wrangled over in the thread were specifically hashed out, between myself and several games designers (WotC has a revolving-membership triad called the Rules Council that determines what's official, and again, like it or not, that's what we creatives are stuck with) as well as fiction editors.
I do take issue with comments in the thread regarding the Nine Hells as being primarily fleshed out in Planescape products. Simply untrue, as any objective examination of my original DRAGON articles will show. In short, I was writing about a place I already "knew." (Over the years, several editors customarily 'ran' all mentions of the Nine Hells that were going to be published in Planescape materials 'by me' for my comments, because although I was a freelancer rather than a staffer, I was considered 'the' expert on the place, a post grandly titled: "The Crazy Hells Guy" or just "The Crazy as Hell Guy.") In my opinion, Planescape materials are often (because of the 'give us funky adventure stuff, and none of the boring stuff' design philosophy that reigned at the time, and the absence of outlets such as web enhancements for publishing the boring-but-necessary foundation stuff) inferior to some of the root materials they drew on, because when examining them I see precious few balanced ecologies in the Outer Planes. How do devils ever get enough to drink? Where do their droppings go? What causes changes in the weather in the Hells? (And so on.) I provided biological details of the effects of the Styx and the Lethe, but in Plaenescape products, such things were simply tossed aside to make room for the next cool battle encounter. I don't mind if someone substitutes THEIR preferences for the Styx and the 'what eats what' food chains, but as a designer I DO mind when such things are omitted entirely. We were publishing official products, and official products should clear up more rules gaps and controversies than they create. If the excuse for everything is 'because God X lives there and wants conditions to be that way,' fine, but then the product should tell me WHY God X prefers those conditions. If some hardy mortals establish dwellings in the Nine Hells, as we're told in the rules they do, what's it like to live there, day after day (rather than just invading with a band of adventurers on a military expedition)?
We discuss such things. Believe me, we discuss such things. (One of my pet amusements, when visiting the old TSR in Lake Geneva, was lunching at various restaurants in surrounding places like Elkorn, and watching the faces of nearby diners as they overheard some of the things we were saying.)
Here's some of the reasoning that went into ELMINSTER IN HELL. I decided to use the outcast archdevil Nergal (I borrowed the name from mythological sources of devils' names, as I did for many of the devils), which I'd created and portrayed as one of the most powerful outcast devils in my DRAGON articles, as my main villain. I've said elsewhere why the novel took the shape it did, with most of the battle going on inside Elminster's head, so I'll just recap it VERY briefly here: I didn't think I could do a good full-length novel of devils really being themselves without repeatedly offending against the WotC Code of Conduct. In short, if it was all physical confrontations, we'd very shortly be wallowing in bestiality, ****, devourings alive, grotesque tortures involving fistfuls of gnawing maggots thrust into eyeballs and brains, and so on and on. The editors would then be forced to censor, writing the book would take a lot of extra time that none of us had to spare then, and the result would be a deeply-flawed book unsatisfying to readers who wanted all the gore as well as to everyone else.
Which brings us to plot mechanics. Elmonster began this thread by asking, "Why Mystra had to send Simbul and Halaster to rescue Elm? Why she couldn't have done it herself? Or why couldn't she just give Elminster enough power, so he could slay Nergal himself?"
Let's dispose of the second question first. As a Chosen of Mystra, Elminster has a degree of independence from Mystra. He can WILLINGLY agree to accept augmentation of his power, IF she can reach him to give some, but he's darn near the limits of his mortal frame right now, something I spent an entire book exploring (the 1995 Realms novel SHADOWS OF DOOM). To give him 'enough' to hand their horns back to archdevils and legions of lesser devils would simply have destroyed him; to give Elminster much more than he has now, in the physical twilight of his years, would render him magically near-helpless, as it did in Shadows.
That brings us back to Elmonster's first question: why Mystra had to use proxies rather than doing the rescue herself. Which also brings on board The Simbul's (the scribe, not my character :} ) comments on plot, and Shemmy's dissatisfaction at not seeing Mystra "get her head handed to her." That comment of Shemmy's frankly puzzles me, because she DOES get her head handed to her, very swiftly: as she slaughters many, many lesser devils, the various warring devils all over the plane notica this and start to gather against her - - and she's promptly forced to flee.
One side note on this: no, even if Bel did exist in this conception of the Hells, he could never have been "moving the plane itself to smack" anyone around: by the very nature of Avernus, it's the most weakly-ruled of the layers, NOT under the absolute dominion of anyone. It has to be that way, or all of the outcast devils would have disappeared long ago (eliminated by any absolute planar ruler). Moreover, Bel would be the most powerful Lord of the Nine, not the least, because he would capture all visitors to Hell and be able to use them against his fellow Lords. Believe me, designers have discussed this over and over, down the years. No one wanted a static Hell, and the basic D&D game concept won't permit it. Remember the 1st Edition Players Handbook with its full-page illo of 'A Paladin In Hell'? Such forays would never occur if the entire resources of the plane can swfitly be mustered to flatten any intruder - - and the same rule governs all Planescape material; any plane, no matter how inhospitable, must permit adventurers to intrude and have survival time therein to do things.
Nor is there really an "infinite" number of devils, as was discussed in the thread; repeatedly designers have agreed that by that hyperbole they really mean 'effectively infinite from the viewpoint of a single mortal entity,' because no matter how powerful, a mortal entity can't kill or conquer 'em fast enough to keep pace with reinforcements arriving to defy that mortal. The Blood War is endless (in the aligned planes concept; check out BEYOND COUNTLESS DOORWAYS from Monte Cook and friends for a non-aligned planar view) because new fiends are constantly being generated from souls.
We all have our own mental concepts of what particular deities can and can't do. Shemmy thought I portrayed Mystra as far too powerful, whereas The Simbul holds the opinion that I 'played her stupid' to make the plot work (she had no need to enter the Nine Hells at all). Well, as the creator of Mystra, I have an opinion too. ;}
First of all, let's dispose of the idea that a hellbound Elminster can freely contact Mystra at will. One of the established limits on Mystra's power is that she's 'blind' to her Chosen if they desire it. Another is that Mystra's power extends only so far as the Weave does.
Within Realmspace, Mystra is the most powerful deity of all (excepting Ao), or would be if Ao hadn't limited her power by vesting some of it in her Chosen (to prevent utter chaos ensuing if Mystra went mad, or just on a whim decided to trash things, drifted into tyranny [absolute power corrupts absolutely], or somehow [as happened in the Avatar trilogy] became the captive of another entity). On Toril, Mystra and Chauntea are the most powerful deities: Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet), and Mystra embodies the Weave, which can (roughly) be defined as the natural forces, and energy flows and cycles, of planetary life (the Shadow Weave being the 'dark' or return flows of the cycle). To use a slightly clumsy real-world analogy, Mystra is the brain observing and in small ways controlling the heart, the Weave is the heart and the arteries, and the Shadow Weave is the veins.
Mystra can certainly sense the opening of a rift between Realmspace and elsewhere. In some cases, entities close to a rift can see through it and even fire missile weapons or cast spells through it, but this is seldom reliable activity; in almost all cases, mortal or divine, one is working "into" rather than "through" the rift. So Mystra in most cases can't "look through the rift" and determine anything at all about Elminster's whereabouts or situation when he's in the Nine Hells.
The rift Troy posited and that I inherited (like any planar rift) causes a violent collision between, and a roiling mixing of, the energy flows of Toril and Avernus. Wild magic will be everpresent, and so will a natural tendency for the fabrics of both planes to try to knit themselves together again, sealing the breech (usually after a lot of stuff has leaked through). This process was what Elminster was trying to aid by casting spells at the breech: he knew they would be twisted by the planar fabric and their raw energy used to aid the closure of the rift. Again, I'm speaking now of what designers have discussed and agreed upon, over the years. If you cleave to a different view, be aware that the implications of disagreeing with 'self-sealing' is that there will be no stable planes anywhere - - INCLUDING any Prime Material Plane setting. Everything will be like those old Doctor Strange comics where the landscape is a crazy-quilt of everchanging hues and forces, with no consistent rules of magic or physics or life cycles. Not a landscape most gamers would want to try to adventure in - - or, if it's run properly, would their characters be able to survive it for long.
To Mystra, trying to 'see through' the rift and determine anything at all about Elminster after he's been sucked through it, would be akin to (clumsy real-world analogy time again) staring into the high-beam headlights of an approaching vehicle of unfamiliar make on a rainy night and trying to identify just who is sitting in the back seat of that conveyance.
Elminster isn't calling on the Weave of Toril to power his spells once he's in the Nine Hells. Like every mortal spellcaster or wielder of a magic item, he's calling on tiny amounts of borrowed power of the Weave stored within himself (or within an item) to work their specified magical effects, until they 'run out.' As a Chosen, Elminster DOES carry a tiny 'cycle of the Weave' within himself, yes, and it's spending some of that to send it drifting back through the planes of existence to rejoin the parent Weave that carries his 'calling to Mystra that he needs help' message. He can't tell her where he is or what's happening to him, he can only alert her to his desperate need for aid. This process works far more speedily if the entity you're trying to reach 'thinks of you' and thus attunes their attention to your slow, very faint call (hence the scenes of various Chosen puzzling over sudden thoughts of Elminster). Aside: if a mortal wizard studies to regain spells, or a sorcerer regains magical energies, while in Avernus or any other Outer Planes, he or she is in effect calling on the 'Weave' of that plane rather than that of their home plane. The spells they gain may have subtle differences, both when cast on the Outer Plane and if carried back to their home plane and cast there.
When Mystra does become aware of Elminster's need, she tries to find him by homing in on that part of the Weave he holds (again, something well established in Realmslore that he or any other Chosen can hide from Mystra if they want to; of course, Elminster in this situation very much doesn't want to). Mystra is aware that he's in great danger and so is the power he holds, that could be 'tainted' by an archdevil and therefore permanently lost to her, or return to her bringing an insidious diabolical influence with it that she can't eradicate (which would be a fatal weakness when archdevils detect it, and become aware that they can influence her, and thus the Weave, and thus all life in Realmspace, in this manner). She's also aware that by entering the Hells she's putting herself in great danger, but she believes the danger to herself will be less if the rescue is accomplished very swiftly. She believes she is the only being with enough power to accomplish that, and servitors can't hope to do anything except fail. So she acts. (The 'why don't you send Azuth?' question is answered by the old American 'you don't risk the President and the Vice-President by putting them on the same airplane' thinking: if you consider the safety of magic in Realmspace first, you as Mystra CAN'T send Azuth.)
So Mystra, admittedly an inexperienced replacement in her portfolio (I'll get to The Simbul's arguments on that topic later), and influenced by her inherited-from-her-predecessor fierce fondness for El (that drives her to get to him FAST because he needs her) and by her own 'I feel lost without the guidance of the old goat' feelings, enters Hell. Mystra's presence in Avernus, by the very nature of WHAT she is, is an attempt to bring the Weave into the Nine Hells. She has the personal power to do so, but as the Weave of Realmspace clashes with the natural cycles of Baator, the roiling causes the opening of many rifts, through which some of Toril 'leaks' into the Hells, and some of the Hells (read: lots and lots of unwanted devils) 'leaks' into Toril (Realmspace, really, but the contact point is Toril itself). The longer Mystra stays, the more this will go on, and the more the Realms are endangered. At the same time, Nergal is in Elminster's mind and Elminster is in Nergal's (SPOILER note: El of course defeats Nergal in the end because Nergal has seized so many of El's memories that his force of will is weakened by the vulnerabilities and human qualities El's memories carry), and Mystra realizes she has to be very careful what she does - - and that she lacks the experience and time to do the task properly. DDH_101 picked up on this and commented on it.
So Mystra retreats, knowing she needs The Simbul (who loves Elminster and will, yes, go through Hell for him :} and who's one of the most clear-headed, ruthless, accomplished fighters-with-magic Mystra knows) to at least buy time for her to properly rescue Elminster. She needs to deflect the arousal and involvement of the one other Lord of the Nine who will care enough to get involved so long as Elminster and the attempt to rescue him is confined to Avernus: Asmodeus. (The other Lords of the Nine are charged to defend their own layers of Hell; watching Avernus get torn apart is little more than free entertainment for them, unless Mystra's invading forces go deeper.) Calling on her inherited memories of what befell Elminster in SHADOWS OF DOOM and many other titanic contests of magic, she seizes upon Halaster's insanity as the 'subtle blade' that might well affect Asmodeus just long enough to snatch Elminster out of the Nine Hells.
The Simbul put together a very amusing 'short version' of El in Hell, showing how Mystra needn't ever have left Dweomerheart to rescue Elminster, and none of the events in ELMINSTER IN HELL needed to happen. Well, to quote two old saws: "There's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip," and "No battle plan ever survived engagement with the enemy."
Mystra's 18-mile-range sensing/remote communications hold true WITHIN THE WEAVE, not in Avernus, where the Weave is more like an aura folded tightly around her. She knows El is somewhere in Hell and goes there hoping she can then 'see' him readily, yes. She can 'feel' that he's close, on Avernus, but can't immediately and infallibly use her remote sensing, because not only is she under attack by clouds of devils, the Weave isn't operating reliably except very close around her.
Certainly she can work magics to try to snatch Elminster elsewhere - - except she dare not expose herself to Nergal (who's apparently winning the El/Nergal mental battle) in doing so, and thanks to the Weave-link between herself and her Chosen, that's what she'll be doing no matter how careful she is with that Miracle spell. She can't depend on the reliability of the Weave (and therefore of her Alter Reality/Miracle), remember, and can feel this as she's fighting. If she sat in Dweomerheart and tried to just 'reach in' to the Nine Hells and work all of this from afar, she'd feel that unreliability instantly, too.
Again, this is something designers have discussed many times, down the years, and come to various agreements on that share this similarity: 'home ground' (being on your own plane) brings an advantage. It has to be this way, or we'd have no books full of glorious planes and sizzling gods to sell you: the fastest divine gunslinger would have wiped out everyone else long ago (reaching into random planes and using their "irresistable" divine abilities on other deities before said deities could do the same to them), leaving us planes of uninhabited, desolate death for us to describe, and one absolute god, a.k.a. Last God Standing (hence, no free will, and no opportunities for adventure: we'd all just be robots carrying out our little part in a script, unable to even contemplate breaking free to do anything else).
I'm not going to discuss the 'Halaster factor' affecting Asmodeus in any detail due to NDA prohibitions (no, SiriusB, please don't ask :} ), but let's wrap up the healing of Elminster and then turn to 'Mystra as naive dummy.'
Yes (ignoring Shar's little bid in the interests of not putting everyone to sleep whilst I drone on and on), of COURSE Mystra could magically heal Elminster and whisk him home. What she can't do is tinker with his mind (well-established-in-Realmslore separation between the Chosen and Mystra again, something I put there deliberately to keep the Chosen from becoming 'angels' or anything akin to angels), so she needs someone who loves him and will 'guide him in healing himself' by taking him to see the right places and people to let him self-heal. The old Mystra had that love, but the new one wants El as a friend, not a half-brain-dead hangdog wannabe lover, so she lets The Simbul do the work.
The Simbul (again, the scribe, not my character :}) disagrees with my interpretation of Mystra's abilities. While it's true that Mystra's inherited portfolio has an INT of this and a WIS of that, the D&D game posits deities who aren't all-knowing and mentally infallible (or there'd be no strife among deities at all, because all of them could foresee how everything would turn out, so again every being would be following a script or remaining static, with no free will and no room for adventure). Time and again we've seen D&D gods who are very like the Greek and Roman gods: supersized humans, who have exaggerated flaws as well as exaggerated powers. The Realms, as a D&D setting, must necessarily be no different. The Avatar trilogy, my Shadows of the Avatar trilogy, Prince of Lies, Crucible, and my Elminster In Hell and Elminster's Daughter have all shown us divine fallibility. (As have many other Realms novels, with Finder and Lolth and so on and on and on.) It's an integral part of D&D, like it or not.
The mortal Ariel Manx (Midnight) 'put on' that keen intelligence and that great wisdom like a cloak; stats aside and 'going by' just what we read in Realms fiction, it's clear that she lacked such stature as a mortal, beforehand. The Weave and exposure to Azuth and the Chosen swiftly elevated her intelligence and made her stagger under the weight of accumulated memories, but we've all known brilliant, long-lived individuals who forget things, get confused, go off on mental tangents at inappropriate times, and so on. The mortal Midnight is no different - - and along with all the overwhelming power and distractions (she's still exulting in just 'riding the flow of the Weave,' like a skier going down a mountain, something her predecessor got over literally ages ago), she got a huge dose (under constant reminder) of inferiority and lack of confidence. Her predecessor did all this, but she didn't. She knows how things are supposed to be done, but she hasn't actually done them herself. Give me three hours, and I can thoroughly explain to you how to disassemble my tractor - - but I doubt most of you, after those three brain-wearying hours, could then go ahead and take the thing apart without any confusion or breaking anything or head-scratching UNLESS you'd done such things yourself already. As Nergal found, 'borrowed' memories aren't the same as actually doing something yourself. Myself, I'd say Mystra could go on learning where her own mental furniture is (and falling over a lot of it in the process) for at least twenty years of Realms time.
If Shar manages to kill off some key Chosen or Azuth erupts or something else occurs to really upset Mystra, things could get wilder, and take longer. And I've a few ideas in mind, believe me, but [NDA NDA BEEG NDA]. :}
If readers don't like reading about a Mystra who's still learning on the job and is a little hesitant, too bad. That's the Mystra I see as allowing mortals the most freedom, so it's the best Mystra for the game and for Realms fiction (and, hey, I created Mystra AND the Realms, so I think my judgement's pretty good about such matters). Yes, I could write a 'The New Mystra Gets Cheesed Off, And Whups Everyone!' novel, and have a lot of slam-bang fun, but I don't WANT to wreck the Realms. If I was a film director, I'd far rather do The Lord of the Rings than Godzilla - - and I think I'd be better at trying to do The Princess Bride than either.
So saith Ed.
Whew, what a mind. Okay, now I'm going to have go right back and read El in Hell right through, all over again. Thanks, Elmonster and Shemmy and The Simbul. No, I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it: thanks!
love to all,
THO
Additionally, Elminster has been placed in charge to defend Thay should the Simbul not heed Mystra's warning.
----
My problem with Thaymart is... well... everything. :P
First, I don't like the concept of 'magic shops' - it tends to devalue magic in my eyes. Magic is something for a select few, and the lucky, not something to be passed around for mere trinkets and gold.
Second, I am not really sure how the Red Wizards sustain such a mass production. I've theorized in the past that instead of sacrificing XP from themselves they somehow use their slaves... and if that is the case what good aligned individual could ever buy from a Red Wizard?
Third, magic items cost so much that they are out of range for most people. Sure, adventurers could buy them but they are a hugely niche market. Goverments could purchase them, too, but at what risk? You'll be letting a foreign enemy set up shop in your lands, place spies throughout your nation or city... meanwhile, you could have hired your own wizards to do the production of similar or the same magic items at a reduced risk if not also at a reduced cost. In either case they sell things out of the reach of most common people unless they save up for years.
Fourth, the Realms has lots of mercantile empires already. Sembia was one before they blew it up, but there is still Amn, and the Zhents as well have a heavy focus on mercantilism.
From a personal standpoint, I just like the feeling of a huge evil empire that is just looming off in the distance. The Zhents failed at this. The Red Wizards failed at this. The Shades failed at this. I like the idea of something that really strikes fear into peoples hearts, because they know if they show up it is going to be an uphill battle right from the start. I like the idea of heroes scratching and clawing their way to victory against a superior and seemingly overwhelming power.
I would likely have Elminster and the other Chosen cast some epic spell that binds the Simbul to Thaymount so she cannot just go off and blow up other nations. It would be similar to how Sauron was stuck in Mordor.
Those two statements seem to contradict one another. If according to Ed Bane can't remove Silver Fire from a Chosen, what hope does the Ruler of the Nine Hells have? And if that quote from Ed you posted is correct (why Bane would utterly fail) then it seems to contradict the entire premise of Mystra entering into Hell in the first place. (And if I am not mistaken Ed wrote the book.)
So if Asmodeus had no real chance at getting his hands on Silver Fire, as Ed explained Bane would not, then why would Mystra do what you described above in post #786 when it would have been utterly irrelevant?
I believe the quoted response from Ed addresses all your complaints here.
The events being referred to happened in Elminster's Daughter, though, where from what I understand happened Mystra stopped the Simbul from casting a Spell that would have reduced the entire nation to a pile of rubble.
Skimming back through that book (which I haven't done for a while - might have to read it again), the Simbul was in Cormyr because Elminster asked her to be there. The Red Wizards were pushing rather strongly against the War Wizards, and since their attitude towards magic is less "sharing is caring" and more "mine mine mine!", Elminster and the Simbul were there to promote the first and stifle the second. The Simbul was all for charging off to Thay and ambushing some Red Wizards in retaliation, but Mystra then said this:
"As a smith tests and tempers a blade, the designs of the mages of Thay can and should be resisted at every turn, yet it is my will that Thay's increased mercantile spread of magic should continue, for now. You were right to slay these, Alassra, but to journey now to Thay and indulge in slaughter of other Red Wizards would be wrong. They'll offer you sport in Aglarond itself soon enough."
I.E. The Simbul can defend herself against Red Wizards who come after her (for whatever reason), but going to Thay and picking them off is a no-go. In the next chapter, when El, the Simbul and Mystra were "alone", Mystra added the following:
"Whenever possible, Alassra Silverhand, heed me true!, you are to subvert the Red Wizards rather than slaughter them. Lay deep-mind suggestion spells to gently nudge the Thayans into acting as I desire them to. Some will yet have to be slain, but too many have a capacity to craft new magics and expand mortal use of the Weave, to lose them all."
I.E. Rather than just kill them all if she decides to go and ambush them, she needs to subvert them into turning their "mine mine mine!" policy into "sharing is caring".
There's nothing that I can see about a "turn the nation into a pile of rubble" spell.
The 'endless clones' things was my frustrated response to the TSR 'good must win' Code of the day (yes, the Zhents were made into bumbling Keystone Kop pushovers), in which one editor said that Manshoon must be killed, or no victory has been won, and another editor saying 'But he has to survive to face them again and again---too good a villain to waste!'
As a game designer, I went for the solution that gives the most play possibilities: a Manshoon who can pop up again and again, to menace anew. I was frustrated beyond description when this started to get used in a farcical way (for movie buffs, consider the 'strangling admirals' throughout THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, meant to demonstrate Vader's ruthlessness, but which always cause audience amusement by the third death scene; that's how humans react to horrible things thrown at them too often).
I've never wanted to do novels that use El, the Seven Sisters, or rulers of realms as the main characters, but every time I try to focus on 'bit players,' those are the scenes that get cut. When I do an El novel, I'm asked to do an El novel; I don't go to TSR and say, "I've got this great idea for an Elminster book." Sometimes the obsession with "Elminster's too powerful, Elminster's Ed's favorite" gets to me; he's not, I've been asked to write about him rather than choosing freely to tell you endless tales of him, and those who think he's too this or that are missing the point: he's NPC material, pure and simple, far too powerful for mortals to mess with, and I'm showing what near-godhood, and the powers that go with it, can do to a human character and sanity with him (because I want to put more in those novels than just blowing castles and people up with spells!) As for these of you who think I sit down to write novels just to put sex scenes on paper, think again; I'm ASKED to include this or that, and do so, as a writer fulfilling my assignment. I don't control the Realms, either behind the scenes or from 'front-of-house.'
Obviously, I haven't read the book. However, I am quite certain that I have read Ed's response to the Simbul's power. I just can't bloody find it. :P
I'm going to keep looking, though, but ultimately it is irrelevant and a minor nitpick. It is a nitpick along the same lines as Ed's comments that Larloch could destroy the world, or at the very least pretty much screw it over to the point where it is as good as ruined.
I don't particularly favor NPC's with that much power. Sure, I don't mind some NPC's in my Realm's who have vast amounts of power (and Larloch would be one of those NPC's). However, at the most, he'd be able to bring an entire nation to their knees, not the entire planet - or even all of Faerun. Even though my Larloch is vastly weaker than Ed's, he's still one of the most powerful guys on the planet and anyone screwing with him would be out of their mind.
He might not be able to crack the world like an egg, but he can stand toe to toe with an avatar of a deity if necessary, or given the proper amount of time and preparation (and more importantly: incentive) he could deal with any army or nation threatening him.
I believe Ed has stated that the Simbul was planning to at one point completely reduce Thay to a pile of ash or something. However, because Thay is now Thaymart and spreading magic, Mystra intervened and asked her not to do it. Ed was very clear that it was within the Simbul's power to carry it out and there was little to nothing the Red Wizards could do to stop her. The only thing that prevented her from carrying out her plan was her respect for Mystra or some such.
But recall my exact words--she probably couldn't destroy the Red Wizards with no possible chance of harm to herself. I stand by that. I also stand by the idea that such a plan on the Simbul's part would likely have ugly, unintended consequences (in fact, that seems to be the idea you were running with, or something similar).
It is rather sad to argue over whether the Simbul had a chance to destroy the Wizards and/or their homeland. If she had, that only makes her irritably powerful and reinforces the image that no matter what the PCs do, they will be outshined by the glorious few and that the Chosen are ridiculous deus ex machinas in their own right; if she didn't have a chance, then she is so mentally unbalanced and outright stupid that Mystra should give her Sammaster treatment and withdraw her divine favor, for surely such a madman would have fallen long ago if not for it. Unless, of course, there are circumanstances I'm not aware of (she had just lost someone close to her to a Thayan warlock etc.)
I don't think the desire to destroy a group of evil individuals who are a constant threat to the Simbul's country (which is her DUTY to protect) is in itself a sign of madness.
-I guess I am the only one that likes that idea, I guess...
You are not alone
For that reason (Elminster losing his memories), among others, that book is not the best example of a case where the Chosen of Mystra are shown to be all-powerful.
-I guess I am the only one that likes that idea, I guess...
I'm neutral towards it. The idea itself isn't unsound, although it does make me think of "Wal-Mart" (though I'm not one of those "Wal-Mart is evil" people either).
If Asmodeus in Elminster in Hell was written as an equivalent to a greater deity, then it means that the lore concerning the Nine Hells in Forgotten Realms is false.
-It wouldn't be the first time, and certainly won't be the last, that a Forgotten Realms product is incorrect.
You are not alone
-Good.
I'm neutral towards it. The idea itself isn't unsound, although it does make me think of "Wal-Mart" (though I'm not one of those "Wal-Mart is evil" people either).
-In my mind, it seems a natural progression.
I agree with Meldread on Thaymart. Basically, the Thayans are AWFUL people in my games. It's sort of like reducing the looming Soviet menace into your local pawnshop guys.
i liked the enclaves!
Obviously, I haven't read the book.
Yes, that's why I provided the relevant quotations.
Even though my Larloch is vastly weaker than Ed's, he's still one of the most powerful guys on the planet and anyone screwing with him would be out of their mind.
Mine's more or less the same as Ed's - i.e. ridiculously powerful to the point where the PCs have absolutely no business messing with him unless for some reason they're in the high Epic levels (which is so rarely the case that there's not much point mentioning it). He exists solely to make the point that the PCs might become big fish in their pond, but as the size of the pond increases, they tend to no longer be the biggest around.
Now, on the other hand, there's also Epic-level stuff in the SRD that has around about the same levels/CR than Larloch does, if not more (and then there are things like the Creeping Doom, that CR49 or whatever Dracolich). So Larloch is a big fish in his pond, but there are still things tougher than he is.
Again, this is something designers have discussed many times, down the years, and come to various agreements on that share this similarity: 'home ground' (being on your own plane) brings an advantage. It has to be this way, or we'd have no books full of glorious planes and sizzling gods to sell you: the fastest divine gunslinger would have wiped out everyone else long ago (reaching into random planes and using their "irresistable" divine abilities on other deities before said deities could do the same to them), leaving us planes of uninhabited, desolate death for us to describe, and one absolute god, a.k.a. Last God Standing (hence, no free will, and no opportunities for adventure: we'd all just be robots carrying out our little part in a script, unable to even contemplate breaking free to do anything else).
I'm still wondering HOW IN THE HELLS did Shar and Cyric managed to kill Mystra in Dweomerheart...
And I like Thaymart, it's only ONE aspect of the Thayans desire to rule everything. They haven't stoped doing the things they always did.
I agree with Meldread on Thaymart. Basically, the Thayans are AWFUL people in my games. It's sort of like reducing the looming Soviet menace into your local pawnshop guys.
Point one: 'the looming Soviet menace' you mention is, for the most part, an illusionary concept, created by the US government and enforced through the media, to justify spending insane amounts of money on the arms race with its greatest competitor at the time. I could spend... days, giving you a thorough and unbiased explanation of just how wrong the comparison you just made is, and why, but I guess we all have better things to do. Therefore, I'll just kindly ask (not for the first time sadly) everyone to try and steer clear from analogies that lean on real world politics. It is just a very, very messy can of worms to be opening, and is entirely unnecessary and unwelcome here of all places.
Point two: 'local pawnshop guys' doesn't seem very fitting. What the Thayans are doing could easily be described as a medieval equivalent of a huge corporation pushing its products on the global market. Which, as LK suggested, is a perfectly natural course for them to take, all things considered. If you truly believe that 'AWFUL people' are above (or below) using trade as a means for increasing their wealth and power, then the two of us are probably living on different planes of existence. Because on mine, that's exactly what they do, and often exclusively.
Point one: 'the looming Soviet menace' you mention is, for the most part, an illusionary concept, created by the US government and enforced through the media, to justify spending insane amounts of money on the arms race with its greatest competitor at the time. I could spend... days, giving you a thorough and unbiased explanation of just how wrong the comparison you just made is, and why, but I guess we all have better things to do.
Yes, because you'd look rather foolish for missing the obvious allusion to the "Red Menace" being the joke as opposed to something that's meant to be taken literally.
Here's a couple of points.
* The Thayans wear Red.
* The Soviet Color is Red.
* The Thayans are terrifying.
* The *finger wag* Red Menace *finger wag* are terrifying.
* The Thayans are undercut by Thaymart.
* The Soviet quote Menace unquote is undercut by all manner of troubles.
* Comparisons to Nazi Germany are trite and overdone.
Suffice to say, there are numerous boards for discussing politics and I come to the Forgotten Realms boards because (to be frank) I have no interest in those boards. Nevertheless, my point isn't that a economically bankrupt nation trudging along with the power to destroy the total sum of the world if anyone was stupid enough to fire their missiles (on either side), it's that the Thayans are undercut by Thaymart.
Point two: 'local pawnshop guys' doesn't seem very fitting. What the Thayans are doing could easily be described as a medieval equivalent of a huge corporation pushing its products on the global market. Which, as LK suggested, is a perfectly natural course for them to take, all things considered. If you truly believe that 'AWFUL people' are above (or below) using trade as a means for increasing their wealth and power, then the two of us are probably living on different planes of existence. Because on mine, that's exactly what they do, and often exclusively.
Putting aside my distaste at your earlier remarks and attempts to interject real life politics into this work, bluntly I don't think that the Thayans benefit from Thaymart because they're not merchants. It ruins their mysteriousness to have them be dealers in antiquities and slavers. We already have Corporate Evil Doers, they're called the Zhents. In fact, the whole THING of the Zhents is they're the Illuminati/Evil Merchants (and if it needs to be spelled out----yes, I'm aware the Illuminati is a fiction in the same way that I'm aware 2+2=4, it's a metaphor)
Forgive me if this seems overreacting but Soviet Studies was one of my focuses in college.
I'm still wondering HOW IN THE HELLS did Shar and Cyric managed to kill Mystra in Dweomerheart...
Plotdevicium.
Basically, I tend to think its important for people to remember that Elminster and the gods should be beings who are never exactly treated with their stats 'as is.' They're subject to all manner of foibles and magic that can deal with them in the interests of a good story.
In the case of Cyric and Shar in my games, Mystra was defeated because Cyric used an ancient Ultimate Nullifier artifact he found on some nameless and forgotten dimension to temporarily remove all of Mystra's powers.
Likewise, I don't like the idea that Helm fighting Tyr was automatically some weak one-sided fight. Helm, by his nature as a god, would be able to tear up entire planes and being defeated by Tyr is an epic that shakes the pillars of Heaven.
In the case of Cyric and Shar in my games, Mystra was defeated because Cyric used an ancient Ultimate Nullifier artifact he found on some nameless and forgotten dimension to temporarily remove all of Mystra's powers.
*The giant finger of AO appears from nowhere and destroys the Ultimate Nullifier*
Seriously, that's a very munchking artifact, I would never allow something like that. Nobody messes with AO's plans.
Back on topic, I have to disagree. Thayans could greatly benefit from it, as they have more competent spellcasters than most other nations, and therefore can produce a superior amount of goods to sell, possibly with better prices and higher quality as well (considering their highly specialized mentality).
This would, over time, create something of a dependancy on their trade network (creating allies through common interest), increase their wealth substantially (fueling their economy and any projects they may wish to undertake), and (if they eventually succeeded at creating a monopoly) allow them to control just what is sold, where, and at what price.
Keep in mind that there is nothing compelling them to sell their most valuable 'technology', so they'd never be in actual danger of giving their opponents more than they would get in return. In fact, they could keep some of the more troublesome (for them) nations in check by empowering their local enemies.
I don't think they'd be any less mysterious for it either. They'd just fill the role of 'the convenient evil'. A sinister presence that is beneficial in the short term, but keeps you wondering just what they're up to.
The only real argument against this development would be maintaining the Zhentarim 'mercantile evil' flavour, but as Thayan trade would consist mostly of narrowly focused and expensive items (meaning their enclaves aren't quite so numerous, nor as directly involved as the Black Network), that's not really a big issue. It even creates some interesting plot hooks involving the rivalry between the two organizations, and makes red wizard PCs a little more believable.
*The giant finger of AO appears from nowhere and destroys the Ultimate Nullifier*
Seriously, that's a very munchking artifact, I would never allow something like that. Nobody messes with AO's plans.
Yeah, it's like Orcus and the "Last Word."
Basically, Ao gives the same Free Will to the Gods that the Gods give mortals.
Except even moreso.
Clearly, it didn't work out very well.
I wasn't trying to interject anything, I was merely pointing out something that sounded wrong to me at the time I read it. The clarification is appreciated. However, as your post didn't have an obviously humorous tone to it, missing the (very specific, internal) joke doesn't necessarily make me 'dense'.
Sorry, I edited some of my language there to be more appropriate before you responded. I have a tendenacy to overstep what I was suggesting there. But effectively, I was just attempting to point out the Thayans do represent for me the BIG BAD ENEMY *OVER THERE.* And the Soviet Union seemed as good as any for a description of how most people view the Thayans.
Everyone is scared
-less of it and part of that is because it's seemingly very insular and powerful even if the thayan world is a complete wasteland.But yes, my main argument against it is the fact that it sort of crosses lines with what the Zhents are supposed to be. Honestly, it's one of the reasons I dislike the Shades so much. They haven't brought anything new to the table. It's a nation of Evil, Ultra-Powerful, and Scary Wizards that everyone believes will sweep away the world.
In other words, Thay.
Re: The Simbul. While canon has always established Mystra has reigned in the Simbul, isn't it a major portion of her background that she attempted to destroy the Thayans not soon after her initial victories and then promptly got her butt handed to her? I always liked the idea the Simbul doesn't quite realize the Thayans deploy their useless and expendable Mid-Level managers to die attacking her.
Sort of like the Zhents and Elminster.
It's probably just a retcon on my part that I'll share my write-ups of but effectively, 90% of the Thayans plots suceed because she's too busy killing minor Red Wizards. Elminster, unlike the Simbul, is smart enough to see through the deception.
I'd disagree about the intelligence of the Simbul, but its an old arguement that I don't really feel like getting into, so I'll just leave it at that.
But yes, my main argument against it is the fact that it sort of crosses lines with what the Zhents are supposed to be. Honestly, it's one of the reasons I dislike the Shades so much. They haven't brought anything new to the table. It's a nation of Evil, Ultra-Powerful, and Scary Wizards that everyone believes will sweep away the world.
In other words, Thay.
True, to an extent. They are very similar, but not exactly the same. Each of these superpowers influences the global situation in a different way, based on its interests (both short- and long-term), location, assets and alliances. The Shades bring the whole Shar-Selune (or rather Shar-Mystra) issue, as well as the shadow weave itself, to the forefront. Arguably, they're more unique, mysterious and interesting than either Thay or old Netheril were. But that's a matter of opinion.
If you ask me, the Realms were starting to get a little too peaceful and orderly for a while there. The more looming antagonists appear, the better. The cold war situation just got a little colder for the good guys, and the PCs are there to even out the odds.
Re: The Simbul. While canon has always established Mystra has reigned in the Simbul, isn't it a major portion of her background that she attempted to destroy the Thayans not soon after her initial victories and then promptly got her butt handed to her? I always liked the idea the Simbul doesn't quite realize the Thayans deploy their useless and expendable Mid-Level managers to die attacking her.
Sort of like the Zhents and Elminster.
It's probably just a retcon on my part that I'll share my write-ups of but effectively, 90% of the Thayans plots suceed because she's too busy killing minor Red Wizards. Elminster, unlike the Simbul, is smart enough to see through the deception.
That's how I've dealt with it too. The whole 'she could wipe out all of Thay on a whim' idea never really clicked for me. It makes no sense.
Well I've already made my opinions known about them. However, I will reference Ed's comments about the Zhents.
The 'endless clones' things was my frustrated response to [u]the TSR 'good must win' Code of the day (yes, the Zhents were made into bumbling Keystone Kop pushovers)[/u], in which one editor said that Manshoon must be killed, or no victory has been won, and another editor saying 'But he has to survive to face them again and again---too good a villain to waste!'
The Zhents were obviously supposed to be the looming threat that lingers just over the hill. Everyone was supposed to be afraid of them - afraid that they could sweep down and begin conquering any moment. People don't really perceive them that way, largely because of the above.
Furthermore, as Charles said, the Zhents are also employing the 'We're not really evil we're just merchants' shtick. I don't like the overlap. That also overlooks the fact that there are other nations - Sembia and Amn being the most well known - who also employ similar tactics.
Halruaa could just as easily fill the Red Wizard's shoes minus the sinister tone, and be more welcome throughout the Realms. It would fit them better.
I am not saying what the Red Wizards are doing won't be more effective in the long run. However, the feeling and the flavor that I want in them is lacking as a result. I really don't care about the long term benefits for them, considering that I have absolute control over what benefits them and what does not. If I want a crazy military expansion to work - it works. :P
The Realms lacks an evil empire or kingdom that is just so vastly powerful that you can't take it head on. Most of the threats you can generally defeat with a bit of planning and a lot of butt kicking.
I would like to see an enemy in the Realms that is just... too powerful. Sure, you could go head on with their legions. You can defeat them, but they will just send another. And another. And another. And another. And they will not stop until you are worn down, ground into dust, and once that happens they will trample over you and continue rolling forward.
In this way, taking them head on is not an option. It requires guile, stealth and clever thinking. It is a bit like in Star Wars where the Rebels had to face off against the Empire. They were out numbered. Attacking the Empire head on was not an option. They had to pick their battles carefully and when they fought they had to deal decisive blows. If they failed at this the Empire would have crushed them.
It is the same in the Lord of the Rings. Everyone could have just gathered together and stormed Mordor, and they might have made a minor dent in their forces. However, they would have eventually been overwhelmed. Instead, they had to use guile and stealth, fight the battles that they had to fight, and hope Frodo could deal the decisive blow by destroying the Ring.
That is something the Realms lacks. They lack that sense of looming evil, that sense of a foe that will overwhelm you in sheer power and numbers. The Zhents failed at that and really if a DM tried to retcon the Zhents as the 'evil empire' it would be hard to take them seriously. It would require over the top acts just to prove a point.
Then, of course, there are the Shades... which I will not even touch. They trend on Red Wizard territory.
And it has a big problem, once the evil overwhelming force is destroyed the setting isn't viable anymore, it's essence is lost. That's what happened to Dragonlance.
I can see Thay as the Soviet Union... well, Russia in general really, considering the nickname it had back in the day (courts of the wolves, wasn't it?). That very much works in my mind.
I'd disagree about the intelligence of the Simbul, but its an old arguement that I don't really feel like getting into, so I'll just leave it at that.
It's just to my personal preference that the Simbul lacks guile. I see her as the kind of Chaotic that isn't Palpatine Chaotic Evil but just outright barking nuts. We're talking a royal case of ADHD.
SLAUGHTER....Sleep.....Eat...Slaughter...SEX...Slaughter...Eat...sleep.
I have never liked how the 'bad guys' have been treated in the Realms. They have been treated as nitwitted idiots who shouldn't be taken seriously. Why bother with the Zhents / Red Wizards, when as written, you know they'll end up screwing up all by themselves. After all, the reason given for the Red Wizards not yet having conquered everything is that they are too busy fighting among themselves. That is just silly.
I much prefer the line of thought: There should not be just one big evil that all fear, but one big evil among thousands of other lesser but equally evil-evils, so thus once the big evil is destroyed another rises to replace it.
The Realms already has overwhelming forces of evil sort-of. They call themselves the Zhents and the Shades. WotC has tried to make the Zhents seem more threatening by having them invade Shadowdale and the like and beat up Elminster. Like I said - to try and fix their image requires them to do over the top things. (And requires people to step back and say, "Woah! The Zhents can't do that!")
The Shades are supposed to be a more "cunning" form of evil, thus they've pretty much turned Sembia into a puppet state.
I'm not fond of either of them. I hate the concept of Netheril coming back - dead empires should stay dead - that's what makes them interesting. The Zhents have too much baggage and their perception is fixed. Thus, I'd prefer to see them both swept away and replaced by something more creditable.
Yes, there must actually be villainous organizations in the Realms that are creditable! I know some people do not like it. They like the happy idyllic Realms, where evil trips over its own feet, and there is virtually no doubt that the good guys will win… yeah, that just is not my thing. If I wanted that I would ask Walt Disney to design the Realms.
Yes, there must actually be villainous organizations in the Realms that are creditable! I know some people do not like it. They like the happy idyllic Realms, where evil trips over its own feet, and there is virtually no doubt that the good guys will win… yeah, that just is not my thing. If I wanted that I would ask Walt Disney to design the Realms.
To be fair, the Zhents and Thayans have been competent since 3E. I remember my first reaction to reading the 3E Campaign Setting was. "Wait, Fzoul has conquered Mulmaster and united the Zhents? Weird." Since then they've been portrayed as consistently competent.
Mostly, I just have a problem with the Shades because I consider them villains without any panache. The Zhents are cartoonish evil and so are the Thayans but the Shades lack their personality.
I have a fun fondness for the Zhents that I lack for the Shades. Like Cobra from G.I. Joe. No they always lost because it was the 80s and a kid's cartoon but they were fun.
I view the Simbul similarly. She isn't one for guile. When there is a problem, she is more prone to trying to crush it with overwhelming force. She does not tend to think very far ahead in her plans and tends to be more emotionally driven.
She isn't crazy, just impulsive. At least that is how my Simbul is portrayed. She is easily the most powerful of the Chosen, but her major character flaw is that she is the easiest to trick and mislead.
That is true, but that has been because WotC has consistently tried to redeem them. I just don't think it has worked. Just look at the response to the Shadowdale Module and how many complained about how such events could never happen.
The Zhents have a lot of baggage thanks to TSR's stupid code 'good must win and evil must be stupidly incompetent'. I think this might also be one of the reasons that WotC has decided to do such drastic changes to the 4E Realms. They need to try and wipe away some of that - I just think they went about it the wrong way. I also think they will continuously fall short when it comes to trying to portray a truly evil and vile organization. The audience intended for the Realms is mostly a younger audience, and thus most of the 'evil' bits get cut out and 'toned down'.
Charles-
That is true, but that has been because WotC has consistently tried to redeem them. I just don't think it has worked. Just look at the response to the Shadowdale Module and how many complained about how such events could never happen.
Huh, anyone have a link to this? I don't have my pulse to the FR wrist and thus missed any controversy. I liked the module, though overall thought it was predestined Shadowdale would be independent again.
The Zhents have a lot of baggage thanks to TSR's stupid code 'good must win and evil must be stupidly incompetent'. I think this might also be one of the reasons that WotC has decided to do such drastic changes to the 4E Realms. They need to try and wipe away some of that - I just think they went about it the wrong way. I also think they will continuously fall short when it comes to trying to portray a truly evil and vile organization. The audience intended for the Realms is mostly a younger audience, and thus most of the 'evil' bits get cut out and 'toned down'.
I don't necessarilly think we need the Yuuzhan Vong or something graphically evil like the Sword of Truth's Imperial Order. You don't need to go very far in showing Fzoul and company are bad, bad, people. I just think you need to show them doing plots worthy of them. Too often we just get treated to the Zhents fighting each other, Elminster or a Chosen, and otherwise screwing up.
One of my favorite uses of the Zhents was Dag Zoreth and destroying the Knights of Samular's HQ.
They have 'good' and 'evil' alignments, but utterly and completely fail to accurately portray either side. It is another reason, over time, I've grown to favor more gray characters and settings. If someone is going to throw their Lawful Good Paladin at me, or their Chaotic Evil Wizard at me, they better damn well represent those alignments.
I could go off on a whole huge rant right now, but I won't. :P
See, I have [i]some[/i] (though limited :P) self-restraint.
(Suffice it to say, though, as far as I am concerned the Zhents aren't really all that evil, and are more Lawful Neutral than anything else.)
In my games, Fzoul Chembyrl is a reasonably honorable and noble chap that would in any other world but D&D be treated as a Julius Caesar style conqueror and champion. Yes, his armies will sack your village and slaughter you to the man if you resist but darnit if that's not WHY you're not supposed to resist.
Really, the Zhents are only slightly worse than Ancient Rome and that's arguable. He's STILL the *BAD* guy whom you and your players must slaughter because hereditary rulership by birthright is something to be protected from Proto-Fascism!
I don't think I'd enjoy the Zhents nearly as much if I portrayed them as I portray the Thayans. The Thayans I outright stole the Scarlet Brotherhood's Ethos (nonhumans are treated like chattle-which is actually sort of canon), grizzly magical experiments, and horrible ambitions to slaughter massive portions of the world.
And then there's the Cult of Ghaundaur which I actually described as this....
You walk into one of their rituals. Bluntly, the best way to describe the sheer
up nature of what you encounter is to leave it to your imagination. Suffice to say, the nightmarish atrocities and abominations that are on display for this ritual are so disgustingly perverse and wrong that I'm going to ask for a Will roll to either run away or enter a blood frenzy for the horrible things on display.So there's definite degrees of evil.
Putting aside my distaste at your earlier remarks and attempts to interject real life politics into this work, bluntly I don't think that the Thayans benefit from Thaymart because they're not merchants.
-So, an increase in funds that funnel back into the coffers of Thay, and in increase of Thay's international influence doesn't benefit her?
It ruins their mysteriousness to have them be dealers in antiquities and slavers. We already have Corporate Evil Doers, they're called the Zhents. In fact, the whole THING of the Zhents is they're the Illuminati/Evil Merchants (and if it needs to be spelled out----yes, I'm aware the Illuminati is a fiction in the same way that I'm aware 2+2=4, it's a metaphor)
-"Mysteriousness" can be quantified, how? That fact that the Zhents exist, as an evil mercantile organization prevents the Thayvians from doing the same, how? Since when, in a viable, living world, is there only one organization in a particular niche? I don't see the reason why having Zhents around prevents Thayvians from opening Enclaves around the world. Will the be competition? In certain places, perhaps.
-So, an increase in funds that funnel back into the coffers of Thay, and in increase of Thay's international influence doesn't benefit her?
Now we're already getting into where it diverges from what I think Thay is. Of course, this doesn't reflect Canon because Canon has Thaymart.
:-)
+ Coffers? What coffers? Thay doesn't [u]TRADE[/u] with anyone. Their neighbors are the Tuigan Horde, Agarlarond, Rashemi, and Mulhorand! People that being a Red Wizard is punishable by death and they'll kill any Non-Red Wizard Thayans who leave.
They're a self-sufficient slave nation that produces everything they need. What they need they take or conjure the wealth for!
+ Thay's international influence comes from the PANTS WETTING FEAR they induce. What influence are they going to get from merchantalism in a feudal economy? When a Red Wizard into town, the immediate reaction is "Oh my Gods, Please Don't kill me!"
If they want to take over a nation, they'll probably do it by enslaving the nobility or replacing them with clones.
+ I also find it difficult believing any self-respecting Thayan can look at a non-Mulhorand as anything but walking Chimps. They're an incredibly racist nation that pretty much lumps the sum of the world into "Pure Blooded Wizards" and "slaves."
Also, I'm rather annoyed these enclaves seem to imply the Thayans will ever be as sucessful as the Zhents. I flat out gave the rules and descriptions for them to the Black Network because it makes more sense for them.
Thay is pretty much Forgotten Realm's Mordor. Can you imagine Sauron opening up a Trade Guild?
+ Coffers? What coffers?
-The monetary funds that the Zukirs use to finance the nation.
They're a self-sufficient slave nation that produces everything they need.
-In the bleak and blasted landscape that Thay is, it is laughable to say that the nation is able to be fully self-sufficient, and produce everything it needs for the people of the state.
+ Thay's international influence comes from the PANTS WETTING FEAR they induce.
-And, in a town/village/city/state that knows not the Red Wizards of Thay? One that has apt defense to defend itself from the magical attacks of said Thayvian. Now what?
+ What influence are they going to get from merchantalism in a feudal economy?
-When your supplier asks for a favor, after, say, doing you a favor, you comply.
+ I also find it difficult believing any self-respecting Thayan can look at a non-Mulhorand as anything but walking Chimps. They're an incredibly racist nation that pretty much lumps the sum of the world into "Pure Blooded Wizards" and "slaves."
-And, this somehow prevents them from entering into the magical item market?
-The mainstream United States was extremely prejudiced against all sorts of racial and ethnic groups, at varying times. Did that ever invalidate the money said racial and ethnic groups spent? In the era where the "Irish need not apply", did bar owners who were not of Irish descent refuse the dollars of their Irish customers. Southern baseball clubs had seperate entrances, seats, and vendors for black customers, but did they refuse to take the dollars of these black patrons?
That is pretty much exactly how I see the Zhents. Of course, let's face it there aren't that many real world cultures or nations (especially those in the ancient world) who would not be marked with the "evil" tag in D&D. :P
Which is pretty much my point. Slaughtering everyone to the man does not necessarily make you evil. To become evil, it requires a certain... sickness... a twisted perversion of humanity. It is something most people (THANKFULLY!) don't have a stomach for and could never actually fully embrace.
I see the D&D Alignments pretty much like this: There is Black, White and Gray. Black is Evil, White is Good, and Gray is everything else. The Alignment system is on a bell curve, with the vast majority (75%) of human mortals tending toward some form of neutrality and leaning one way or another, 10% who are truly good, 10% who are truly evil, and 5% who actually uphold the balance between the two. Those in the middle are the 'normal' people. They might see themselves as good but fall short due to their own hang ups, short comings or situation in life.
Being neutral is easy just act human and normal. Being good is hard because it's like getting your face stomped on repeatedly and endlessly, but it is the most rewarding in the end. Being evil is slightly more difficult than being neutral, but requires you to lack a conscience of any kind, and while it may be the most rewarding in the short term it often is the least rewarding in the end. That is how everything is kept balanced.
Good has it the hardest, but in the long run it pays off. Evil has it the easiest in the short term, but in the long run the pay off isn't worth it. The Neutral guys fall somewhere in the middle depending on which end of the spectrum they gravitate toward.
The only 'true evil' or 'true good' beings in existence live in the Outer Planes (such as Devils and Demons). The only reason they are 'true' evil or 'true' good is because they are physical manifestations and personifications of those concepts. Thus, a devil is evil not by choice but by creation, whereas a mortal is evil by choice and by action. Of course, that does not take into account any type of psychological disorder. Some races may tend to have more 'evil' than other races, and some races may tend to have more 'good' than other races, but this is because of their psychological make up and not due to choice. These statements I am making apply exclusively to humans.
-----
To use an extreme example let's take the Nazi's. The Nazi mindset is definately one of evil, but all of those who supported the Nazi regigeme or even were members of the Nazi Party were not evil simply by association or even personal view point. They certainly would not be good, because of their views, they would fall somewhere in the neutral spectrum, but most definately only a miniority would be evil.
To see an example of evil among the Nazi's one might take Josef Mengele.
Josef Mengele was a Nazi doctor at the Auschwitz extermination camp who selected prisoners for execution in the gas chambers and conducted medical experiments on inmates in pseudoscientific racial studies. Here are some interesting points:
"He sometimes stood for hours without flinching, a hint of a smile on his face, his elegantly gloved hand beckoning the prisoners to the right or the left… Only when an interesting specimen came along did Mengele really spring to life. He urgently motioned to a nearby guard to yank the new arrival out of the line. SS guards were ordered to watch for any unusual or striking genetic material – the dwarfs, the giants, the hunchbacks – and to bring them immediately to Mengele. But most important of all to him were the twins."
- Children of the Flames
"...women were required to undress and parade naked in front of him. This enabled him to judge whether they were fit to live just a little bit longer."
- Children of the Flames
"...most of the twins began their descent into Auschwitz by witnessing their entire families being led away from them to be killed."
- Children of the Flames
"The twins who passed through the gates of Auschwitz were of all ages, but often they were very young children who fought and cried at being separated from their loved ones. If Mengele was on the scene, he tried to soothe the terrified parents. He would smile as he comforted an anguished mother, insisting her twins would be in good hands. And if the twins were just infants, Mengele might sometimes pull their mother out of the line as well permitting her to accompany and look after them. Most often, however, the children were taken away alone."
- Children of the Flames
"Mengele also seemed to take a perverse pleasure in exterminating women who were pregnant. “This is not a maternity ward,” he replied when asked why these women were sometimes automatically sent to die. Mengele even boasted he was being ‘humanitarian’ in having these women killed. Auschwitz, he would point out, had no facilities to take care of newborn children."
- Children of the Flames
Josef Mengele was a man of twisted perversity, who enjoyed his work, enjoyed his experimentations, and enjoyed the suffering he inflicted upon others. He might be the type of man who works for the Zhent's, but would the grunt who is sent off to bring him 'experimentation' subjects be evil? Not necessarily, especially if he hated what he was doing, but was afraid to stand up for what is right - as is sometime the case.
However, even if the worst is assumed and that the grunt had (at best) indifference to it all that still would not qualify him as evil. At best, he may be neutral leaning toward evil, and there is no way said grunt could ever be good.
In order for such an individual to be good, he would have had to have rejected the Zhentarim long before that point. When the Zhents conscripted him into their ranks, he would have had to refuse. He would have had to object and refused to commit the actions he was ordered to commit. Then he would have had to endure the torture and ultimately - the death - brought on by the consequences of those actions. Like I said - being good is like having your face stomped on repeatedly. On the bright side, Ilmater gives him strength through his ordeals and torments, and takes him into his divine realm upon death as a martyr. His death may cause unrest among some of the other Zhents, ultimately giving others the courage to step forward as well.
It is important to understand that good is the complete opposite of evil, and in order to be good you cannot embrace the tactics used by evil. Forgiveness is much harder than hatred. Mercy is much more difficult than vengeance.
Evil in D&D is a living and tangible force. It is not something subjective. It exists and is real. You can touch it, see it and feel it. Thus, if you embrace emotions such as vengeance and you slay someone deserving of death, you have done nothing but feed the evil of the multiverse by falling into its trap. Evil is always tempting like that, and always seems to be the easiest route, and that is why good is the most difficult – because you must constantly struggle against your baser impulses.
In D&D terms for good-aligned mortals I see things like this: When the light shines, it always pushes back the darkness, but it would be folly to forget that even the brightest light casts a shadow.
What that means, essentially, is that when a true good-aligned person steps forward true evil cannot help but recoil at its presence. It is something that has the ability to wash away the corruption stained upon the souls of other mortals. Like evil, good is a living and tangible force. It is not something subjective. It exists and is real. You can touch it, see it and feel it. However, at the same time it is important to remember that as a mortal, no matter how good you are, no matter how bright of a light you are, you will always cast a shadow – there will always be a part of you that seeks to subvert and tempt you into darkness.
That is what a Paladin struggles against and the purpose of the Paladin Code. That is why a Paladin is the epitome of true goodness in its purist form.
If a Paladin is captured by a devil and is forced to watch as his entire family is slowly tortured, mutilated, raped, and ultimately killed he must forgive that devil. The devil wants to tempt the Paladin into falling. That devil wants to lure the Paladin into the darkness and he wants that paladin to seek vengeance. The Paladin has to reject that. He has to forgive the devil, no matter how vile its actions, he has to let go of vengeful thoughts and let go of any hatred that may be in his heart, because by allowing it to dwell there it will only lead him down a path of evil and self-destruction. When ultimately he does battle with that devil, and slays the devil, he cannot slay that devil in vengeance for his family – he may slay the devil in justice (which is different than vengeance and is the difference between Hoar and Tyr) – but primarily he slays the devil because he knows the devil cannot be redeemed and he is saving others the same pain and torment that he has experienced. He slays the devil for the sake of others, not for himself, which is the difference between justice and vengeance.
It is critical to remember that Devils and Demons are the physical manifestations of Evil itself. Such a scene as the above might unfold something like this:
The Devil and his servants have captured the Paladin, taken away his weapons, stripped him of his armor (in fact he is forced to be naked before his family in order to shame and humiliate him and remind him of his powerlessness), and likewise his family is tied up and stripped naked (in order to show the Paladin that he is powerless to prevent the violation of the bodies of those he loves). As his family is tortured, their bodies cut and mutilated, his children would scream horrifically, and the Devil would force them to cry out things such as, "Daddy! Please! Help us! Make it stop!"
The Paladin may weep, he may cry, he may scream in rage, he may feel himself torn and conflicted. He wants to HATE these people - he wants to KILL these people - he wants to SAVE his family, his children. Yet, he cannot because he is helpless, and to make matters worse, he cannot give into the temptation of those emotions. He must fight those emotions, because that is the most important thing - even more important than his family.
The Paladin may try and close his eyes, and not listen to the pleas of his children, but the Devil uses magic to make that impossible. No matter where he looks he sees them. He hears their voices. He might try and drown out the sounds by praying to his god, 'Oh merciful Ilmater, give me the strength to endure the torments of these monsters... be with my family... let me to endure their suffering in their place...'
The Devil laughs and tempts the Paladin further, by telling him that Ilmater can't hear him, that Ilmater has abandoned him. He tries to subvert and trick the Paladin, to transfer doubt into his mind about his faith. ("Why won't Ilmater give me the power to overcome my bonds so that I may save my family from this monster?")
Throughout all of this, the torture and suffering of his family is secondary to the Devil's goals. It is the psycological and metaphysical aspect that he is most intersted in - as the Paladin falters (as he will - he is human) and gives into emotions of hatred he becomes empowered. The Devil can sense and see those emotions. He is skilled in bringing out those emotions. The Paladin, likewise, can see the Devil and see him growing stronger. The Paladin can sense and feel the evil in the Devil.
The Paladin, to combat this, may yell things at the Devil such as: "Ilmater suffers for you just as he suffers for all! I know not the sins you committed in your mortal life to be condemned to the nine hells, but know that Ilmater suffers for all even you! Ilmater endures for all!"
The more the Paladin resists the temptations of the Devil the less useful he becomes, and thus this may lead to the Devil growing bored with the Paladin and killing him or killing his family and leaving the Paladin alive. (So that he may be alone, suffer and ultimately - with luck - be driven by hatred and a thirst for vengeance to find him.)
Good and Evil in D&D is very black and white. There is no middle ground. You are either good – or you are not. You are evil – or you are not. If you are not either you are neutral – which the majority of individuals are because they lack the strong moral fiber of a Paladin.
When it comes to fighting devils and demons, it is important to understand how they fight. The actions that they commit are only to facilitate the spread of evil, as evil is self-perpetuating. It is true that they enjoy all sorts of insidious torments, but that is only so they can further lure and tempt you into darkness. If they torture you it is to get you to hate them. They want you to inflict the same torment upon them as they have inflicted upon you. They grow more powerful, the more you hate them, the more you want to harm them, the more you want to cause them to suffer.
The famous quote by Nietzsche illustrates it rather well: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
This is something that every Paladin and every good aligned individual not only understands but embraces – by necessity. The world is filled with monsters and other evils, and they are called to fight them, but at the same time in order to remain good they must resist falling into their baser temptations and thus becoming monsters themselves.
In my Forgotten Realms, I have blatantly lifted the Tinkers and the Way of the Leaf from Robert Jordan’s the Wheel of Time. In the Forgotten Realms, they worship Eldath and I think the whole concept meshes and fits perfectly.
Below is part of one of the chapters, and it illustrates the struggles good aligned individuals must face. It illustrates the inner conflict and turmoil. Like in D&D Good and Evil are tangible forces in the Wheel of Time setting.
Aram gestured to the trees, his eyes fastened intently on hers. "The leaf lives its appointed time, and does not struggle against the wind that carries it away. The leaf does no harm, and finally falls to nourish new leaves. So it should be with all men. And Women."'
....
'"But you said you wouldn't hurt him," Perrin said.
"I would not, but violence harms the one who does it as much as the one who receives it." Perrin looked doubtful. "You could cut down a tree with your axe," Raen said. "The axe does violence to the tree, and escapes unharmed. Is that how you see it? Wood is soft compared to steel, but the sharp steel is dulled as it chops, and the sap of the tree will rust and pit it. The mighty axe does violence to the helpless tree, and is harmed by it. So it is with men, though the harm is in the spirit."'
....
'"You see, Perrin?" Raen said. "For us, safety lies in moving, not in villages. I assure you, we do not spend two nights in one place, and we will travel all day before stopping again."
"That may not be enough, Raen." The Mahdi shrugged. "Your concern warms me, but we will be safe, if the Light wills it."
"The Way of the Leaf is not only to do no violence, " Ila said gently, "but to accept what comes. The leaf falls in its proper time, uncomplaining. The Light will keep us safe for our time."'
....
'Then he [Aram] reached out and pulled a sword from the cluster, hefting it awkwardly. The leather-wrapped hilt was long enough for both of his hands. "Can I use this one?" he asked.
Perrin nearly choked.
Ila's eyes fell on her grandson, on what he held and she screamed as if that blade had gone into her flesh. "No, Aram! Nooooo!" She almost fell in her haste to get down the stairs and flung herself on Aram, trying to pull his hands from the sword. "No, Aram," she panted breathlessly. "You must not. Put it down. The Way of the Leaf. You must not! The Way of the Leaf! Please, Aram! Please!"
Aram danced with her, fending her off clumsily trying to hold the sword away from her. "Why not?" he shouted angrily. "They killed Mother! I saw them! I might have saved her, if I had had a sword. I could have saved her!"'
....
'Wiping his [Perrin's] mouth, he tossed the napkin on the table and got up. There was still time to tell Aram to put the sword back, to go ask Ila's pardon. Time to tell him...what? That maybe next time he would not be there to watch his loved ones die? That maybe he could just come back to find their graves?'
....
'"I suppose it is," Perrin said sadly, wondering why he should feel sad. The Way of the Leaf was a fine belief, like a dream of peace, but like the dream it could not last where there was violence. He did not know of a place without that. A dream for some other man, some other time. Some other Age perhaps. "Go on, Aram. You have a lot to learn, and there may not be much time." Still bubbling thanks, the Tinker did not wait to wash his tears away, but ran straight out of the inn, carrying the sword upright before him in both hands.'
....
'Faile watched him [Perrin] pick up his knife and fork. "You disapprove?" he said quietly. "A man has a right to defend himself, Faile. Even Aram. No one can make him follow the Way of the Leaf if he doesn't want to."
"I do not like to see you in pain," she said very softly.
His knife paused in cutting a piece of goose. Pain? That dream was not for him.
It is those types of internal struggles that separate those who strive to be (but sometimes fail) to be good. An evil individual has no such internal conflict, as such emotions and thoughts are irrelevant - if not foreign concepts.
...but yeah, I hate you Charles. I said I would not start this debate, and look what you made me do. ;)
Anyway, this is my major objection to D&D alignments. They fail to properly draw out these conflicts. However, don't get me wrong - I love them. That is why I love good, and why I ultimately dislike many of the so-called good aligned characters in D&D fiction. They always fall woefully short of my expectations.
Nevertheless, I'm inclined to think it'd be much more profitable and easier for the Thayans to probably work through legitimate merchant channels. I don't think any nation would open its doors up to the Thayans so openly and with such wide arms while nations like Sembia and other economic power houses are forced to live under the law of the land. I could see the Zhents arranging it but not the Thayans.
Frankly, you're right that a lot of trade would be going on under the Table and probably through Portals. I imagine it's handled by Regular Thayans or perhaps even the Black Network which would probably have a MUCH easier time hocking their wares than the Thayans.
I also figure the Black Network and Thayans would be willing to reasonably tolerate one another in the interests of profit. The BN able to go places the Thayans can't.
Thay is pretty much Forgotten Realm's Mordor. Can you imagine Sauron opening up a Trade Guild?
That to me is the real problem. Imagine if Sauron had said, "You know what guys. My evil ways - they're all in the past. I'm putting it all behind me. Instead, I feel I want to be a business man. You know, the whole evil I-will-conquer-and-destroy-you-all thing... well yeah, that was a midlife crisis. I really want to be a merchant. So yeah, do you mind if I open up a shop in your lands? Oh, and by the way - I want you to do so under these terms which are obviously favorable to me - or else - oh that isn't a threat. Heh. Heh. My evil is behind me, remember?"
How many people will take him seriously? In the Forgotten Realms, I can imagine some places quickly allowing this. Thesk for one. Local leaders will allow the enclaves, not for the wealth it brings, but out of fear of the Red Wizards, and they want the chance to kiss their red robes and prove their usefulness. ("When you inevitably come this way and conqure all, you will remember who was loyal and who was not, yes?")
Of course, you also have to remember how the locals will react. I am sure they would be pleased. (That's sarcasm.)
Going further out from nations directly bordering Thay, what reason do they have to accept Thay's offers? They have less reason to be afraid of Thay, due to distance, and none are so stupid to not see the Thayan's intentions. Do they really want Thay spreading their influence into THEIR nation or city? No way.
The best reception a Red Wizard could hope for is being laughed at in the face, given the finger, and tossed back into the ocean and told to SWIM back to Thay. That is just assuming he isn't executed and his head sent back to Tam as the answer.
We're pretty close in evil and how it effects the people of Neutral Alignments. Lets go to a slightly less controversial topic than the Holocaust (which I'm uncomfortable in bringing up in any gaming topic---even in Falknovia where Vlad Dracov is explictly a Medieval Nazi villain conducting genocide of Non-Humans). To Kill a Mockingbird because while it details real attitudes and beliefs, it's also fictious.
I doubt I could objectively quote my entertainment using quotes from the Nazi's most infamous scientist (I actually advise you to Sblock that to be honest since it has such a visceral reaction from so many).
The majority of the populous in To Kill a Mockingbird are perfectly willing to murder the defendent in a Lynch Mob during one portion of the story. Likewise, the populous condemns him despite the fact that our resident Lawful Good exemplar, Atticus Finch, proves that the subject is innocent beyond all doubt. This is, without a doubt, an evil act on the part of the jury and a result of their racist need to put down a Black Man on even a false accusation of ****.
Does this make everyone in the mob evil? Well, they're certainly acting in an evil manner. However, one might argue that the rest of their lives are defined by otherwise normal behaviors. This isn't an issue of God punishing you for crimes with eternal damnation but a general description of your behavior.
All in all, I determine that they are mostly Neutral. They're otherwise good people weighed down by a horrible prejudice in their souls. This applies to most people throughout history and thus you have the majority of humanity willing to give out of the goodness of their hearts to family members or friends but wouldn't pee on a member of a foreign people if he was on fire.
It's the good types who genuinely are able to move beyond their traditional viewpoints to see a greater sum of humanity. Thus, the weird reaction to Jesus and Buddah whom seem comfortable dealing with all manner of taboo breaking.
While you reinforce the sickness and depravity of evil. I tend to reinforce it's banality. The vast majority of evil people in the Forgotten Realms are perfectly able to function in society and not the least bit sick or disturbed by the standards of OUR society let alone those of the Forgotten Realms.
I'll go back to Fzoul Chembyrl. Fzoul Chembyrl is not sick or twisted. He's a military conqueror who believes that rulership should belong in the hands of the strong. He's Colonel Jessup from A Few Good Men, Julius Caesar whom believes that his legacy outweighs the need for Rome to be at peace with its neighbors, and an otherwise friendly fellow who spends 90% of his time plotting how to kill the Royal Family of Cormyr. Fzoul Chembryl's greatest scene in our game was where he explained to the PCs that he wanted them to kill his two wayward children because they were pedophiles and sick individuals that needed to be put down like animals because they were utterly unworthy of inheriting Zhentil Keep.
But Fzoul Chembryl isn't a typical Evil Person in FR. There's also the Mister Potters of every city. The greasy scumbags who spend all of their time drunk and verbally abusing their wives. The guys who hide behind their particular religion, nation, or race to do violence as a matter of course. They go the NEXT step to make their nastiness into a lifestyle. Monty Burns is just a greedy merchant but he's a pillar of the community and an important part of society.
Everyone knows where all the Vikings get their plunder but they've made their evil deeds a lifestyle even if they're not sick monsters.
Are the sick scumbags evil? Yes, but they don't make up the majority of it by far. Evil is amongst the people of the Forgotten Realms and they exist in vast numbers.
Re: Devils and Demons
It's a small but noteworthy difference in my games that Devils and Demons are made not born. Now, basically, you start with a Mane. You then torture that guy until he's utterly insane and nurture his horrific instincts for a few centuries. Then you do that to what he turns into. Then you continue until after 10,000 years or so, he's a balor. A balor whose natural instincts are murder, kill, and lust at all times.
Do you think in ANY environment like that, there could be someone capable of redemption or good? Probably not.
I think you raise a good point, King Kaius.
-The reference is lost on me. Who's that?
Nevertheless, I'm inclined to think it'd be much more profitable and easier for the Thayans to probably work through legitimate merchant channels.
-More profitable? Maybe, maybe not. Working through such channels means a third-party (who ever they are), which means less money funnels back to Thay. However, if said third-party makes more money than the Thayvians would have made on their own, this is invalidated.
-Easier? Again, it depends. Is a "Free City", such as Silverymoon, really going to turn away those Thayvian merchants, simply because they are Red Wizards? That doesn't set a very good precident, especially with individuals such as Drizzt in the neighborhood. So, it was okay to allow the Drow, and not the Red Wizards? And remember, money talks. The Thayan Enclave is going to be generating revenue, some of which will be returned to your own economy, helping it. They'll be paying taxes and tariffs, boosting your economy. And so on, and so on...
I don't think any nation would open its doors up to the Thayans so openly and with such wide arms while nations like Sembia and other economic power houses are forced to live under the law of the land.
-Again, conditions will dictate this. Take this situation, for instance. Nesme, as I recall, had recently been ravaged by Troll and Orc attacks. As the people are rebuilding, a pair of Thayan Red Wizards show up, willing to buy land, so that they can set up their business. Ding! Ding! Ding! Not only do they do the above mentioned things, to help your local economy, but when the Trolls come back, are the Red Wizards going to abandon their investment (this is up in the air, truthfully, however...)? Or, are they going to defend it, and by proxy, your town/village/city/state?
-Again, conditions will dictate this. Take this situation, for instance. Nesme, as I recall, had recently been ravaged by Troll and Orc attacks. As the people are rebuilding, a pair of Thayan Red Wizards show up, willing to buy land, so that they can set up their business. Ding! Ding! Ding! Not only do they do the above mentioned things, to help your local economy, but when the Trolls come back, are the Red Wizards going to abandon their investment (this is up in the air, truthfully, however...)? Or, are they going to defend it, and by proxy, your town/village/city/state?
This is where the issue becomes complicated by the fact we're dealing with Mordor here, Lord Karsus. If you picked up every silver, gold, and copper coin in Thay then you would not have nearly the same economic power as Sembia or Zhentil Keep. Your argument works just as well for the Knights of the Shield, the Rundeen, or the Black Network (though only the Zhents probably have the military and magical muscle to also back up its claims).
Why not set up Enclaves for them? Why not set up Enclaves for the Church of Waukeen, which is bound to be as Rich as Thay?
and again, the Trade is in Magical Items. Which, again, doesn't really work for me because FR isn't Eberron. Forgotten Realms can't pull off Dragonmarked Houses like Jorasco or House Cannith that can actually make a monopoly on mass produced magical items. Likewise, the economy in Faerun isn't developed enough that your occasional adventurer is going to be able to purchase them.
Frankly, the average person doesn't NEED magical items the way that adventurers do either. Let's use an example. The Thann family from Waterdeep, home of the Scarlet Danillo and heir to Khelben Blackstaff. The Thann Family fulfills the following criteria.
1. They are richer than at least some gods (not Waukeen).
2. The Thann family trades in slaves (which presumably are worth a lot more to Thayans than simple gold and one of the few things they trade in)
3. The Thann Family presumably has a reasonable need as any for magical items.
What exactly are they going to buy from Thaymart in bulk that is going to justify its existence? While ESP is certainly useful in encounters, one might argue it's cheaper to hire a full time Wizard or train their own. I could imagine the Thann family purchasing 80 or so Fireball spells but only if they intend to overthrow the Lords of Waterdeep.
Barring a military war or something equivalent, it seems like a poor investment.
The Zhents, on the other hand, probably have the number of wizards to produce Specialty Items like the ESP scrolls or Fireballs they need. Likewise, they would probably deal with the Thann family in silks, exotic items, and all the much larger bulk trade goods that probably are needed in much larger quantities.
Sorry, was typing an Eberron post and thus typed "Lord Karsus" in my Eberron post and King Kaius here.
-Oh. Gotcha.
If you picked up every silver, gold, and copper coin in Thay then you would not have nearly the same economic power as Sembia or Zhentil Keep.
-Of course not. I am not saying that the Thayans dominate the trade. I am arguing that entering into it is a natural progression of Thay's "war against humanity".
Your argument works just as well for the Knights of the Shield, the Rundeen, or the Black Network (though only the Zhents probably have the military and magical muscle to also back up its claims).
Why not set up Enclaves for them? Why not set up Enclaves for the Church of Waukeen, which is bound to be as Rich as Thay?
-If they haven't "gone into the business", that's their own fault. There can be, in canon, plenty of different reasons for them not doing so, from the fact that the aforementioned organizations don't have access to the raw magical creation power that Thay does, to the upper eschalons of said organizations simply don't want to go in that direction, along with the breaking the 4th Wall answer of the Designers never thought of any of those things.
and again, the Trade is in Magical Items. Which, again, doesn't really work for me because FR isn't Eberron. Forgotten Realms can't pull off Dragonmarked Houses like Jorasco or House Cannith that can actually make a monopoly on mass produced magical items.
-As we have established, Thay doesn't, and wouldn't have a monopoly on the magic item trade. Being who they are, however, they can offer incentives for individuals to shop at their shops, rather than Zhent shops, or the "Mom and Pop" shops- cheaper prices, a wider variety and selection of items, and so on.
Likewise, the economy in Faerun isn't developed enough that your occasional adventurer is going to be able to purchase them.
-Isn't this how things already work, and have worked since the inception of D&D? Random adventurers (ie, the PC party) come into town, and every so often, use their hard-earned loot to buy magical items from the local merchants.
Frankly, the average person doesn't NEED magical items the way that adventurers do either.
-Of course not. This doesn't change the fact that the average person occasionally saves up to buy a magic item (say, something utilitarian, like an Everburning Torch), or that certain places are predisposed to having large amounts of adventurers, which results in larger sales and larger profits.
Let's use an example. The Thann family from Waterdeep...
-Yes, all viable points. The solution? A shop does not need to be set up there, if econmically, it makes no sense. As the entire mercantile venture is a relativley large gamble for Thay, why set up where profits cannot be justified, or guaranteed? No matter, however, as the rest of the world exists. Places that are rebuilding from, or are engaged in war- Amn. Places that simply do not have a dominating competator- Calimshan. Places where opportunity is rife- The Border Kingdoms.
Easier? Again, it depends. Is a "Free City", such as Silverymoon, really going to turn away those Thayvian merchants, simply because they are Red Wizards?
In a word? Yes.
No one has explained how these Enclaves even make money anyway. They sell magical items. That stuff isn't cheap. It's out of the reach of the common folk.
Furthermore, it does not help the local economy because the Enclaves are considered sovereign territory and no tax may be levied against them or the items sold. Thus that coin goes directly to the Red Wizards, which in turn goes right back to Thay.
At best, the Red Wizards might purchase local goods such as food, water, wine, and other such products. However, that is assuming they can't make or craft it themselves. If they are crafting magic items of use in local economies they have the power to conjure up most of the luxuries they'd want.
Frankly, if anyone looks at the Red Wizards offer they would be stupid to accept. Any advantages gained from the offer are mitigated by the plethora of disadvantages (not including the hidden disadvantages that you cannot see).
Take this situation, for instance. Nesme, as I recall, had recently been ravaged by Troll and Orc attacks. As the people are rebuilding, a pair of Thayan Red Wizards show up, willing to buy land, so that they can set up their business.
Yes, and reasonably speaking, how many would not claim (rightfully or wrongfully) that the Red Wizards were NOT behind the Troll and Orc attacks, just so they could worm their way into a position of power?
Not only do they do the above mentioned things, to help your local economy, but when the Trolls come back, are the Red Wizards going to abandon their investment (this is up in the air, truthfully, however...)? Or, are they going to defend it, and by proxy, your town/village/city/state?
What will happen: The Trolls will return, the Red Wizards will battle and kill them, and since trolls can only be killed through fire or acid a Red Wizard will hurl a fireball at the trolls. This, of course, "accidentally" catches a local shop on fire - a shop in competition with the Red Wizards. Of course - the Red Wizards are very sorry about the accident. They are so sorry that they want to buy your land, purchase ownership in your business, and of course - allow you to go back to running it for a small cut of the profit.
In a word? Yes.
-Why?
No one has explained how these Enclaves even make money anyway. They sell magical items. That stuff isn't cheap. It's out of the reach of the common folk.
-See my response, above one post.
Furthermore, it does not help the local economy because the Enclaves are considered sovereign territory and no tax may be levied against them or the items sold. Thus that coin goes directly to the Red Wizards, which in turn goes right back to Thay.
-I was unaware of that. However, the land must be purchased to begin with, thus the town/village/city/state would be making a profit on the sale of that. On top of that are any and all expendatures spent in the city itself, which causes coin to circulate.
At best, the Red Wizards might purchase local goods such as food, water, wine, and other such products. However, that is assuming they can't make or craft it themselves. If they are crafting magic items of use in local economies they have the power to conjure up most of the luxuries they'd want.
-Red Wizards are fairly intelligent individuals. Do you think they would purposely alienate a people- potential customers- who already have a degree of distrust towards them? Looking down on said individuals or not, they are not stupid. They are businessmen, after all. ;)
-And, as a side note, I was under the assumption that the items such enclaves sell are shipped from Thay to the enclaves, as to allow lower level apprentices and whoever else to spend their own energies on the item creation process, and not the "elite" Red Wizards themselves.
Frankly, if anyone looks at the Red Wizards offer they would be stupid to accept. Any advantages gained from the offer are mitigated by the plethora of disadvantages (not including the hidden disadvantages that you cannot see).
-Are people omniscient? Hardly. Especially in a world where the average person has an INT of 10, and Red Wizards have naturally high INTs, being as that they are Wizards.
Yes, and reasonably speaking, how many would not claim (rightfully or wrongfully) that the Red Wizards were NOT behind the Troll and Orc attacks, just so they could worm their way into a position of power?
-Some, I'm sure. Actions speak louder than words, as I'll demonstrate with an example below.
What will happen: The Trolls will return, the Red Wizards will battle and kill them, and since trolls can only be killed through fire or acid a Red Wizard will hurl a fireball at the trolls. This, of course, "accidentally" catches a local shop on fire - a shop in competition with the Red Wizards. Of course - the Red Wizards are very sorry about the accident. They are so sorry that they want to buy your land, purchase ownership in your business, and of course - allow you to go back to running it for a small cut of the profit.
-As, say, the Mayor of Nesme, or whatever their executive representative is called, this would cause me to throw out the defenders of my city, the individuals who were a major factor in my city surviving yet another Troll attack, the individuals who are a large reason why I can go home at night, to my wife and children? I think not. This would simply prove that these individuals are truly interested in the continued survival and whatnot, of Nesme. And, they are kind and caring, too. They helped their fellow merchant, something that there was no need of them to do.
No matter, however, as the rest of the world exists. Places that are rebuilding from, or are engaged in war- Amn.
Amn has a large distrust of Wizards and it is likely that the Cowled Wizards would resist any attempt at this at every turn. Even the Shadowed Thieves would resist this for the simple fact that Thay could cause problems to their long term interests. A Red Wizard showing up here is likely to be lynched in the streets by commoners (literally).
Places that simply do not have a dominating competator- Calimshan. Places where opportunity is rife- The Border Kingdoms.
There is opportunity there - it could happen easily. However, the problem here is that the Red Wizards are interested in expanding their empire. The whole point in going the merchant route is to find a way to conquer from within instead of from without. They want to dominate local economies to turn nations and city-states into puppets that do what they want, and are extensions of their nations will. They are not interested in wealth - that is a side benefit. Both Calimshan and the Border Kingdoms are too far away to really be useful to them.
Amn has a large distrust of Wizards...
-That is true. I forgot about this fact.
They are not interested in wealth - that is a side benefit.
-Wealth is the road to domination. Look at Sembia. They are a very rich state, and as a result, have a lot of political clout. Political clout leads to political domination. Currently, we live in a unipolar world, with only single Superpower. The reason for this? The sheer amount of resources and currency availible to the United States.
Both Calimshan and the Border Kingdoms are too far away to really be useful to them.
-Resources! Resources! Resources!
The Black Network pays for the upkeep of the Enclaves, they handle their own security, and they pay a yearly fee to the Kingdom that is hosting them for the priviledge of running their enclaves in the region. The surrounding areas benefit from the large influx of foreign goods that the Black Network has ample supply of and they openly purchase the wares of said region as well as a matter of good will.
All they ask is their people are judged to their own laws and allowed a reasonable amount of autonomy.
Of course, the Zhentil Keep enclaves are centers of all manner of evil plots and nefarious deeds. Ironically, 90% of it is pretty much just black marketeering and graft of the locals. The Zhents get most of their money from the same misdeeds that the mafia and major corporations do. Most of them aren't working on anything major at any given time because thy want to keep their nose clean for the most part.
It's only that 10% that something REALLY evil is afoot and they always make sure that is handled with perfect plausible deniability.
I have difficulty thinking the Thayans can pull that off.
I have difficulty thinking the Thayans can pull that off.
-If the Zhentarim can- the Zhentarim, who are the more local threat, in great portion of what is considered 'traditional Faerûn- why not the Red Wizards of Thay- who are a "they are out there" evil? All it takes is some good PR.
Aside from the reasons I mentioned previously a blind bat (and all bats are blind) can clearly see through the Red Wizard's intentions. Everyone knows their reputation, and in almost all areas you listed - in particular places such as Silverymoon - slavery is illegal. In some of these places it is punishable by death. I would imagine this is so in Silverymoon.
Furthermore, Silverymoon itself is practically oozing with magic like Waterdeep, and while there might be a market there for a Red Wizard Enclave that market is no doubt already filled and dominated by someone else.
So, explain to me why Silverymoon or Waterdeep - two places where slavery is illegal - would allow well known slavers with obviously nefarious intentions enter into their cities and build an enclave?
Do you even realize what the Thayan's demand? Check out the FRCS:
Thayan enclaves are independent mercantile and political entities within an urban area in non-Thayan country. Here people interact with Thayans in a peaceful manner, buy magic items, and make deals with the Red Wizards who control the enclave.
An enclave is established after a Thayan diplomat negotiates with the local authorities. These negotiations usually entail lists of benefits for local rulers, such as increased amount of magic for their guards and protectors, as well as for the authorities themselves. Depending on the nature of the local authorities, the diplomat presents gifts or offers bribes in order to sweeten the deal. For peaceful or good nations, the gifts are benign or useful items such as potions of cure spells, wands of fly, magic shields, and so on. For more aggressive countries, the bribes are often items that can be used for illicit deeds, such as potions of invisibility, or combat items such as a wand of fireball or magic weapons. Once both parties agree that an enclave can be built, they discuss the exact terms.
The Thayans always require the local government to agree to three demands (known as the Three Laws of the Enclave and refuse to establish an enclave unless the other party agrees to all of them. The Three Laws prevent abuse at the hands of those who oppose the presence of the Red Wizards on moral, cultural, or religious grounds. If such abuse occurs, the Thayans can claim that the local authorities have failed to provide protection for diplomatic envoys acting within the confines of the law, which would make the local government accountable to Thay itself.
The Law of Sovereignty: The enclave is treated as Thayan soil. Thayan law applies within, the Red Wizards are responsible for patrolling the enclave themselves, and the law of the rest of the country does not apply. The enclave's inhabitants are not immune to prosecution; for example, local authorities can demand that a man who murders someone elsewhere in town and then retreats to the enclave be turned over to the local law, whereupon the Thayans must comply. Slavery is permissible within the enclave, although if the local laws forbid slavery, few Thayans force this point by keeping slaves in the enclaves.
The Law of Trade: The Thayans price their goods and services at 10% below the normal cost. Their merchandise is primarily magic items, and some enclaves also sell mundane equipment such aw tapestries and weapons. Technically the sale of slaves is permitted, but since local law applies outside the enclave, this is futile in lands where slavery is outlawed. An enclave normally sells scrolls of 0-level spells for the cost of creating them if the customer buys an equal number of other magic items (including potions and scrolls of 1st level or higher). The Law of Trade also states that the Thayans can accept slaves as payment for items, and these slaves can be legally transported within the borders of the sovereign nation on the way to Thay. Most antislavery countries require that a potential slave in this situation must either be willing (such as a man selling himself into slavery to provide for his family) or a criminal convicted of a serious offense (such as a murderer or a traitor). The local government sometimes even trades criminals in exchange for Thayan goods.
The Law of Crafting: This law dictates what the Thayans will and will not create for slave to the general public. Normally an enclave only produces potions, scrolls (of up to 4th level spells), wands, +1 armor, +1 weapons, and minor wondrous items. None of these may have abilities easily used for crime (such as potions of invisibility or a wand of charm person) or overtly destructive (such as a wand of fireball). They may also cast spells for hire. In general, the Thayans never create an item worth more than 2,000 GP, because such items dominate limited resources that could be used to produce cheaper and more desirable products. All items produced in an enclave are required to bear the mark of the Red Wizards and the insignia of the city where the enclave is located. They also refuse to create dangerous items (as described above) because should someone be harmed with an item created in an enclave, the Thayans could be held responsible. This policy also prevents such items from being used against them.
In exchange for these demands, the Thayans agree to donate 1% of the enclave's profit to the local government. The actual amount is rather soft, since an accurate count is not provided for the local government, and some enclaves allocate a portion of these funds to bribe local guardsmen and officials. Most enclave contracts include brief but regular periods of military service by the wizards in the enclave's employ, which allows the local government access to more spell casters.
Since the inception of the Thayan enclave, their numbers have increased quickly. Within the lands bordering on the Inner Sea, nearly ever (90%) metropolis-level locations has an enclave of some sort. Most (75%) large cities have one, and man (50%) small cities do, some (30%) large towns do, and a few (10%) small towns have an enclave, while smaller settlements might have a single Thayan representative or none at all. A typical enclave holds a number of Thayans equal to 1% of the settlement's population. Guards and other support staff for the wizards, including servants, assistants, and mundane artisans, make up at least half of the enclave population. The remainder are wizards of various levels (some with levels in the Red Wizard prestige class). The highest-level wizard is the leader of the enclave, and always has at least one level in the Red wizard prestige class.
-Wealth is the road to domination. Look at Sembia. They are a very rich state, and as a result, have a lot of political clout.
Sembia is a smoking crater that got hit by a falling Tear of Selune and subsquently found itself turned into a puppet state of the Shade Empire. Not the best example. :P
Resources! Resources! Resources!
If the Red Wizards were united instead of busy infighting they could take whatever resources they wanted. ;) (That was my point in having Simulraxus take them over. :P)
About the only reason I can imagine is that Alustriel, unlike the Simbul, is smart enough to know that the Thayans in a place where they can be watched is better than where they can't be.
Yes, but that is somewhat irrelevant considering public opinion of Thay.
To Faerunians, Thay is a dark and evil empire where cruel Red Wizard endlessly crack whips over screaming, groaning slaves who are spell-transformed into weird monsters as their "reward" for backbreaking service.
If most people in your city or nation hold this opinion, do they honestly want the Red Wizards setting up shop in their neighborhood? Imagine it for a moment! Mothers would be terrified to let their children wander in the streets, afraid that the Red Wizards will snatch them up, cart them off to Thay as slaves, and transform them into all manor of abominations. That is how a commoner would view the Red Wizards.
Sure, it might let them keep an eye on the Red Wizards... but who really believes that the Red Wizards don't know that? And even if you have them there for that purpose (utterly irrelevant to most common people), how do you plan to remove them once they've had a chance to establish themselves? The Red Wizards are smart, they are coming in to dominate your local economy and make you beholden to them. That is the entire point.
Once the Red Wizards show up and have a chance to establish themselves in your local economy:
You = Their Slave
So, explain to me why Silverymoon or Waterdeep - two places where slavery is illegal - would allow well known slavers with obviously nefarious intentions enter into their cities and build an enclave?
-Firstly, are they slaving? In all likelihood, no. As I stated before, they are not stupid, and aren't going to attempt to alienate the local government.
-That aside, are the Thayvian envoys breaking any laws by attempting to set up merchant shops? Presumably, they are legally purchasing the land they set up shop on. Presumably, they do not harrass, demean, attack their patrons and customers. Are they breaking any laws? No. Now, why shouldn't/wouldn't they be allowed to purchase land, as anyone else can, obtain a permit or whatever else, to sell their wares, like anyone else, and so on? Because of their reputation? Then why allow any other foreigner to buy land, since they obviously don't have Waterdeep/Silverymoon/whatever's best interests at heart. Why allow any non-Human to buy land? They obviously don't have mankind's best interests at heart.
Sembia is a smoking crater that got hit by a falling Tear of Selune and subsquently found itself turned into a puppet state of the Shade Empire. Not the best example. :P
-Pre-1374 DR Sembia, then.
If the Red Wizards were united instead of busy infighting they could take whatever resources they wanted. ;)
-This current tangent is about Thayan Enclaves. Thayan Enclaves allow opportunities to exploit the resources, and eventually control the resources, of a foreign entity without having to resort to conflict. With a war model, the Thayans lose, even if they ultimately win. With an economic domination model, they ultimately win, while losing nothing. This is why I say it is a natural progression.
If most people in your city or nation hold this opinion, do they honestly want the Red Wizards setting up shop in their neighborhood? Imagine it for a moment! Mothers would be terrified to let their children wander in the streets, afraid that the Red Wizards will snatch them up, cart them off to Thay as slaves, and transform them into all manor of abominations. That is how a commoner would view the Red Wizards.
-As I pointed out earlier, a few good deeds here or there, however distasteful (or not) for the Red Wizard in question, and said mothing scoffs as such perceptions, citing how Red Wizard X and Red Wizard Y are good guys, just like anyone else. Things like this happen in the real world all the time. Blazing Saddles is a comical, and appropriate, example.
Cyrde is from the Moonshaes Trilogy. He's a Red Wizard. He's a Red Wizard that rules the Moonshaes through his puppet. He's not trying to take over them, he's SUCCEEDED and ruled them for about twenty years at this point. Cyrde did so by enslaving the High King and basically lording over the populous through fear and superstition.
In the Cold War of Faerun. It's Thay as the Soviets, Agarlarond as West Germany, and everyone else as Europe.
The Zhents play both sides being the scheming money grubbers they are.
But good argument, Lord Karsus.
I think an odd thing we've proven is that the Thayans and Zhents are still scary despite what fans think!
-What mainstream/casual fans see- that is, what takes place in the novels- are isolated cases of failure/incompetence. For every novel where a Zhent looks like a Keystone Kop, or a Red Wizard does something stupid, there are five others where they don't.
Firstly, are they slaving? In all likelihood, no. As I stated before, they are not stupid, and aren't going to attempt to alienate the local government.
As pointed out they are free to slave if they wish, and are even allowed to accept slaves as payment in certain circumstances. The Enclaves themselves are treated as Thayan soil and they will not even build an enclave anywhere that does not adhere to their demands. Seriously, think about it, do you want to do business with someone like that?
Everyone, absolutely everyone, knows what the Red Wizards are up too. You are assuming that everyone has an intelligence of 8 or less. Even if an individual ruler cannot plainly see the truth, there are others, advisors and the like, who do see it and will warn the ruler / leader / whatever.
I'm not saying there are places that would not allow them to build enclaves. Absolutely. There are a lot of corrupt individuals that could be bought off. However, the common people are not so easily conned, and no matter how powerful or tyrannical the government, they are only as powerful as those under them allow them to be - and in most cases we are not talking about Banite cities. Those cities would disallow the Red Wizards in favor of doing business with the Zhents as the two are competing toward similar goals.
That aside, are the Thayvian envoys breaking any laws by attempting to set up merchant shops? Presumably, they are legally purchasing the land they set up shop on. Presumably, they do not harrass, demean, attack their patrons and customers. Are they breaking any laws? No. Now, why shouldn't/wouldn't they be allowed to purchase land, as anyone else can, obtain a permit or whatever else, to sell their wares, like anyone else, and so on? Because of their reputation? Then why allow any other foreigner to buy land, since they obviously don't have Waterdeep/Silverymoon/whatever's best interests at heart. Why allow any non-Human to buy land? They obviously don't have mankind's best interests at heart.
I'll ignore the last part of the statement because it is completely facetious.
However, the above is rather simple. Local rulers who allow the Thayans to step in and begin selling to the local population are idiots for the following reasons:
1. They give up their economic freedom and independence. The Thayan's get the nation / city state by the balls, economically, threatening to do various things ("Next time there is an attack on your city, we will not be so generous in sending our own men to help defend it, unless you acquiesce to our demand.", "If you like your guards having those protections, I suggest you think carefully over our demands.", etc.).
2. The Thayan's will strive to put out local businesses in order to completely dominate a local economy, putting your citizens out of work, or worse - in the employ of a foreign government.
3. The Thayan's will use their resources to undermine all who are not favorable to them, thus they may target you to replace you with a puppet (unless you become one) and may target others - potential allies of yours - to replace them as well. They may also cause all manor of unrest and other problems - none of it traceable back to them, of course, they are not stupid.
Dealing with the Thayan's is a bit like dealing with the mob. It is not a very good idea. It might provide short term benefits, but that is only until they show up looking to collect on the favors.
Pre-1374 DR Sembia, then.
They were in competition with Thay.
The Sembians do not think of the Zhents as a magical threat, but the foremost worry of Sembia is the magical mercantilism of the Red wizards of Thay. The Council of Sembia has little interest in seeing Thay force its way into formerly Sembian markets by providing magical goods that Sembians can't duplicate.
As I pointed out earlier, a few good deeds here or there, however distasteful (or not) for the Red Wizard in question, and said mothing scoffs as such perceptions, citing how Red Wizard X and Red Wizard Y are good guys, just like anyone else. Things like this happen in the real world all the time. Blazing Saddles is a comical, and appropriate, example.
Yes, they can solve all sorts of problems. The trouble they have is that most people will accuse them of starting those problems, just so they can solve them so they look like the good guys.
This current tangent is about Thayan Enclaves. Thayan Enclaves allow opportunities to exploit the resources, and eventually control the resources, of a foreign entity without having to resort to conflict. With a war model, the Thayans lose, even if they ultimately win. With an economic domination model, they ultimately win, while losing nothing. This is why I say it is a natural progression.
I don't disagree. It's just that we had the same in Sembia, the same in the Zhents, and the same in Amn - why continue to play it up? Any of those three or all three could easily be doing the same thing Thay is doing. It is a bit boring when everyone is trying to be peaceful merchants, and no one is interested in making war. :P
In one measure, we know the Zhents don't want to ethnically cleanse them but I doubt that's all of it.
The Zhents of the Moonsea also trade with other countries, but the Sembians don't consider them a true competitor, because a great deal of Zhent commerce flows through Sembian ports at one point or another, mostly through Ordulin.
As pointed out they are free to slave if they wish, and are even allowed to accept slaves as payment in certain circumstances. The Enclaves themselves are treated as Thayan soil and they will not even build an enclave anywhere that does not adhere to their demands. Seriously, think about it, do you want to do business with someone like that?
-Depends. If Bob the Wizard is trying to sell me a Wand of Lightning for 3,000 GP, and Red Wizard X is willing to sell it to me for 1,000 GP, I am buying my Wand of Lightning from Red Wizard X.
Everyone, absolutely everyone, knows what the Red Wizards are up too. You are assuming that everyone has an intelligence of 8 or less. Even if an individual ruler cannot plainly see the truth, there are others, advisors and the like, who do see it and will warn the ruler / leader / whatever.
-I stated specifically that the average person has an Intelligence score of 10. That's why 10 is the 'average score'.
-But, as I stated, why turn them away, when they haven't done anything? They come to you, follow all of the laws and regulations, and you turn them away, because of who they are? That does not establish a very good precident. Where does it end?
I'll ignore the last part of the statement because it is completely facetious.
-How so? A man from Rasheman cares for Rasheman first and foremost. A man from Thay cares for Thay first and foremost. An Elf from Evermeet cares for Evermeet first and foremost. Why is one barred, while the others aren't? Where is the line drawn?
1. They give up their economic freedom and independence. The Thayan's get the nation / city state by the balls, economically, threatening to do various things ("Next time there is an attack on your city, we will not be so generous in sending our own men to help defend it, unless you acquiesce to our demand.", "If you like your guards having those protections, I suggest you think carefully over our demands.", etc.).
2. The Thayan's will strive to put out local businesses in order to completely dominate a local economy, putting your citizens out of work, or worse - in the employ of a foreign government.
3. The Thayan's will use their resources to undermine all who are not favorable to them, thus they may target you to replace you with a puppet (unless you become one) and may target others - potential allies of yours - to replace them as well. They may also cause all manor of unrest and other problems - none of it traceable back to them, of course, they are not stupid.
-In larger states, these are all non-factors. Thayan Enclaves do not reach positions of power such that they rival the state itself in terms of political power. In smaller states, rulers might believe that they will be able to deal with such situations, surmising that the potential goods the Thayans bring with them outweigh whatever negatives they bring with them.
Dealing with the Thayan's is a bit like dealing with the mob. It is not a very good idea. It might provide short term benefits, but that is only until they show up looking to collect on the favors.
-An apt analogy. I never claimed that they are "nice people" either. But, do people make deals with the mafia? Sure. A wide cross section of people, too. Low-level thugs. Multi-mllionaire businessmen. The same goes with the Red Wizards of Thay.
They were in competition with Thay.
-Which has nothing to do with the point I was originally making: That economic power leads to political power, as evidenced with Sembia.
Yes, they can solve all sorts of problems. The trouble they have is that most people will accuse them of starting those problems, just so they can solve them so they look like the good guys.
-I don't think so. I am 100% against allowing Illegal Aliens to stay in the United States. Recently, there was a botched robbery near my mother's house. A shopped, who happened to be an illegal immigrant, it was later revealed, helped stop the robbery. Never once in my mind did I think that the illegal immigrant in question orchestrated the entire thing, to make people sympathetic to the "plight" of the illegal immigrants in the United States.
I don't disagree. It's just that we had the same in Sembia, the same in the Zhents, and the same in Amn - why continue to play it up? Any of those three or all three could easily be doing the same thing Thay is doing. It is a bit boring when everyone is trying to be peaceful merchants, and no one is interested in making war. :P
-Because, as I mentioned in a previous post to Charles, economic domination is a natural progression of the Thayan "warmachine". Via economic domination, the Thayans gain political power and resources, and do not lose anything, whereas in war, they lose resources, to gain just as much (or less) political power and resources. And, as I stated much earlier to Charles, why does the existence of one economic group bar anyone else from entering into the field?
It's interesting to wonder why the Zhents have a better reputation than the Red Wizards.
-This, I believe, mostly depends on where you are. As I stated before, one reason may be that in the Heartlands, the Moonsea, and other traditional regions of Faerûn, the Zhents are present. You know what you are dealing with. The Red Wizards, however, are "a threat from far away". Far more scary. Far more nefarious.
Additionally, I should point out that the Zhents do not exactly have a vast Empire or anything. They have taken more kicks in the teeth than any other organization I can think of in the Realms... How many times has Zhentil Keep been sacked in the last oh... let's be generous and say 50 years? I think I've lost count.
Twice.
1. Shandril blows the Tower to Pieces with the Crown of Fire in Crown of Fire
2. The Humanoids sack the city in Prince of Lies
After that, it starts turning around in Ruins of Zhentil Keep and then Cloak and Dagger. The Zhents haven't really had any set backs after these two TITANIC failures.
Honestly, though, I didn't consider the Zhents back up to Full Power and beyond until they took Hillsfar. Frankly, much of the Zhent's bad rep comes from the fact they served a second stringer like Xvim.
In all books but Prince of Lies and the Spellfire ones, the Zhents may have lost but in Veiled Dragon they were scary as hell.
The big list of Zhent disasters is as follows FYI.
* The Shadowsil is killed by Shandril.
* Shandril blows up Zhentil Keep.
* The army of the Zhents during the TOT is destroyed.
* Bane dies.
* The Zhent army is slain in Anauroch thanks to Ruha.
* Cyric runs the Zhents into the ground.
* The Keep of Zhentil Keep is sacked.
* Xvim takes over.
* Xvim starts a war with the Bane holdouts AND the Cyrcists.
* The Manshoon Wars.
* A Pit Fiend takes over Zhentil Keep.
Everything starts looking up.
* Shadowdale Invasion fails.
Put yourself in the shoes of a ruler of a city state. You are approached by a Red Wizard Envoy. He speaks to you wonderful platitudes, kisses the jeweled rings on your hand, and speaks of the wonders that Thay can bring to your nation. You know all about the Red Wizards - their reputation is well known - you are above average intelligence.
What do you do and why?
That is pretty much what I am talking about. The Red Wizards have had amazing success in comparison, and have only recently fallen into Civil War (and it is highly likely that Tam will win that war and rule Thay with an iron grip afterward).
It also has to do with what Lord Karsus said: "The Red Wizards, however, are "a threat from far away". Far more scary. Far more nefarious."
The only difference I would have with Karsus is that I think the Red Wizards would be more scary and nefarious if rumors kept sweeping across Faerun of another city, another nation, another town and village being conquered by Thay. :P
It kind of kills the "scary and nefarious" theme when they are saying: "Hello, Welcome to Thaymart. Now that we've given up our evil ways, we are happy to show you our wares - would you like a smile face sticker, it is our new symbol!" :P
-Either way, I'll answer in the morning. It's time for sleep now.
-Gentlemen.
Well since you brought it up earlier by saying:
Easier? Again, it depends. Is a "Free City", such as Silverymoon, really going to turn away those Thayvian merchants, simply because they are Red Wizards? That doesn't set a very good precident, especially with individuals such as Drizzt in the neighborhood. So, it was okay to allow the Drow, and not the Red Wizards? And remember, money talks. The Thayan Enclave is going to be generating revenue, some of which will be returned to your own economy, helping it. They'll be paying taxes and tariffs, boosting your economy. And so on, and so on...
Let's just say your city-state is Silverymoon. ;)
-As the regent of Silverymoon, I am concerned about one thing: the state's continued survival. As a nice person, I am concerned about one additional thing: the concerns of the people.
-Now, as the regent of Silverymoon, what kind of precident am I setting by turning away Red Wizard merchants. Sure, the land they purchase is considered Thayan soverign territory, but what they do, and do not do, still has a large effect on my city. What happens if, should I turn them away, or bar the Red Wizards from buying property in my city, that word gets out that Silverymoon is not friendly to merchants? Merchants, thusly, begin avoiding the Gem of the North, to a degree. My economic status suffers as a result. What happens if, should I turn them away, the next regent, who is a man with less scruples, bars Calmishite merchants from setting up shop in Silverymoon, for precisely the same reasons that I barred they Thayan merchants? And then Mulhorandi merchants? And then Elven merchants? He/she would have established precident to do so.
-Any degree of influence the Thayvians gain in Silverymoon will be smaller than the influence I, as regent, hold. I do not have to worry about the Thayans using what (relativley little, in a metropolitan center such as Silverymoon) economic influence they have to order me around.
-There is a possibility that the Thayans gain a foothold in the local economy, taking jobs from local merchants. As a firm believer of laissez-faire, it is not my place to attempt to influence against this. It is as it is. If the Thayans do supplant locals in the market, it is because the Thayans are able to sell better goods, cheaper goods, more goods, whatever, to those who are buying them. My duty is to rule Silverymoon, not make sure "jobs stay local". An extremely large-scale example of this would threaten the security of Silverymoon. As I said however, because Silverymoon is a vast metropolitan center, with varying mercantile factions, and influence and foothold the Thayans gain is minimal.
-What will the Thayans be bringing with them? Asides for their initial purchase of property, they pay tribute and taxes. They bring adventurerers to Silverymoon, looking to buy their wares. Their own expendatures will more likely than not return back into the local economy.
Lord Karsus-
Put yourself in the shoes of a ruler of a city state. You are approached by a Red Wizard Envoy. He speaks to you wonderful platitudes, kisses the jeweled rings on your hand, and speaks of the wonders that Thay can bring to your nation. You know all about the Red Wizards - their reputation is well known - you are above average intelligence.
What do you do and why?
As ruler you do what a good ruler should. You be diplomatic. So you ask for time to consider their generous offer. You plan to use this time to try and figure out a legitimate reason for declining, while giving them no opportunity to take offence. Soon your advisors start coming to you, advising you as to the merits of their proposal. They seem to be dressed a little finer these days, and their purses seem a little fatter than usual. However, these are men you trust, so you listen to their arguements. You promise to take it under consideration, but you are not convinced. Then your wife comes to you with some niffty magical baubble, and tells you that she got it from this positivley charming red wizard fellow. She then begins to go on an on about how they are nothing like their reputation, and how wonderfull it would be to have a place to obtain such wonderful things. Worst of all...the little gizmo is handy.
Still, you have your misgivings, and are firm in your resolve, despite what your advisors and wife have to say. Then it happens. That fool son of yours gets in a drunken brawl and kills some one. One of those Red Wizards just happened to be there, and managed to whisk him away, and cover things up before anyone was the wiser. You have strived to uphold the law your whole life, and there are very strict penaltys for murder, even accidental. But he's your Son, and you cannot bring yourself to submit him to punishment. So now you sit across from the Red Wizard. You owe him, and he knows it. As you reach for the quill to sign the treaty, you try to convince your self that it isn't such a bad thing. That the three laws of the Enclave protect both party's. That everyone will benefit from this. It still doesn't help the sinking feeling in your gut as you finish signing, but at least now your wife can stop her constant nagging... on this topic at least....
As for how the Enclaves make money... Magical item sales are the loss leader. They barely break even on them. What the enclaves really make money on are all the peripheral goods and services that goes on behind closed doors. Fencing stolen goods, drugs, illicite spellcasting, and information brokering.
What makes these things scary, is that Thay is establishing eyes and ears in cities all around Faerun. They are establishing spys and contacts, and looking for opportunities to turn things to their advantage. If they ever did happen to want to turn to out right conquest, they already have people that owe them all over, know the city intimatley, and have an established beach head inside the city walls. How many people could an enclave smuggle into the city unnoticed? How many troops could they march in through a portal or two in the enclave it's self? How qickly could they nullify the leadership with their magic? Especially when they already know their routines, where they will be, when, and who they hold dear. It is very easy to imagine that the enclaves are a stepping stone for some thing much, much, bigger.
-As the regent of Silverymoon, I am concerned about one thing: the state's continued survival. As a nice person, I am concerned about one additional thing: the concerns of the people.
Here is what the people are saying, now that you've allowed well known and unapologetic slavers set up in Silverymoon:
- They are claiming that you have endorsed slavery, and are even getting a cut from all the slaves the Red Wizards capture.
- They are claiming that you no longer (and that you never did) have the interests of Silverymoon at heart.
- The Harpers are moving in and are not only suspicious of you (and contemplating undermining your leadership), but are now most definitely undermining your ally (The Red Wizards).
- Some of the Lords in the Lord's Alliance have disagreed with your move and this is causing tension, the other Lord's are watching your actions carefully, though you've become somewhat of a black sheep.
- The leader of the Knights in Silver, a Paladin stands against this for obvious reasons.
- Likewise the Selunites in the city stands against this move.
- The Circle of Silver, an alliance of druidic groves in the Moonlands, objects not only for some of the previously mentioned reasons but because they are well aware of the Red Wizard's playing with the weather and little regard they have for the environment. They question your loyalty to them.
- The Spellguard is against this, not only do they fear the reputation that the Red Wizards will bring to the art if allowed to be in the city, they see them as a potential threat and feel that you do not value their service. (After all one of the few benefits given to Silverymoon by accepting this agreement is the fact that the Red Wizards will help defend the city.)
- The local merchants who once filled the role that the Red Wizards once filled, are now afraid their businesses will close down. They are actively plotting the destruction of the Red Wizards (likely also funding the Harpers), and some of them are even plotting your disposal.
Now, as the regent of Silverymoon, what kind of precident am I setting by turning away Red Wizard merchants. Sure, the land they purchase is considered Thayan soverign territory, but what they do, and do not do, still has a large effect on my city. What happens if, should I turn them away, or bar the Red Wizards from buying property in my city, that word gets out that Silverymoon is not friendly to merchants? Merchants, thusly, begin avoiding the Gem of the North, to a degree. My economic status suffers as a result. What happens if, should I turn them away, the next regent, who is a man with less scruples, bars Calmishite merchants from setting up shop in Silverymoon, for precisely the same reasons that I barred they Thayan merchants? And then Mulhorandi merchants? And then Elven merchants? He/she would have established precident to do so.
Throughout the city people are beginning to not only question your judgment, but your sanity, wondering aloud to their friends and neighbors, "Who is next?" Where will -you- draw the line? If Illithid come forth from the Underdark and approach you peacefully, stating that they wanted to open up an enclave within your city, would you allow them to do so? What about Beholders or Drow? Naturally, of course, it would be under the same terms the Thayan's got. King Obould Many-Arrows is likewise putting aside his warlike ways (or so he says), and is interested in setting up a mercantile operation in Silverymoon, though it should be pointed out that he refuses to disband his army.
What will the Thayans be bringing with them? Asides for their initial purchase of property, they pay tribute and taxes. They bring adventurerers to Silverymoon, looking to buy their wares. Their own expendatures will more likely than not return back into the local economy.
They do not pay taxes. They pay a dubious 1% of their profits to you. As I pointed out previously here is what you will be agreeing too:
Thayan enclaves are independent mercantile and political entities within an urban area in non-Thayan country. Here people interact with Thayans in a peaceful manner, buy magic items, and make deals with the Red Wizards who control the enclave.
An enclave is established after a Thayan diplomat negotiates with the local authorities. These negotiations usually entail lists of benefits for local rulers, such as increased amount of magic for their guards and protectors, as well as for the authorities themselves. Depending on the nature of the local authorities, the diplomat presents gifts or offers bribes in order to sweeten the deal. For peaceful or good nations, the gifts are benign or useful items such as potions of cure spells, wands of fly, magic shields, and so on. For more aggressive countries, the bribes are often items that can be used for illicit deeds, such as potions of invisibility, or combat items such as a wand of fireball or magic weapons. Once both parties agree that an enclave can be built, they discuss the exact terms.
The Thayans always require the local government to agree to three demands (known as the Three Laws of the Enclave and refuse to establish an enclave unless the other party agrees to all of them. The Three Laws prevent abuse at the hands of those who oppose the presence of the Red Wizards on moral, cultural, or religious grounds. If such abuse occurs, the Thayans can claim that the local authorities have failed to provide protection for diplomatic envoys acting within the confines of the law, which would make the local government accountable to Thay itself.
The Law of Sovereignty: The enclave is treated as Thayan soil. Thayan law applies within, the Red Wizards are responsible for patrolling the enclave themselves, and the law of the rest of the country does not apply. The enclave's inhabitants are not immune to prosecution; for example, local authorities can demand that a man who murders someone elsewhere in town and then retreats to the enclave be turned over to the local law, whereupon the Thayans must comply. Slavery is permissible within the enclave, although if the local laws forbid slavery, few Thayans force this point by keeping slaves in the enclaves.
The Law of Trade: The Thayans price their goods and services at 10% below the normal cost. Their merchandise is primarily magic items, and some enclaves also sell mundane equipment such aw tapestries and weapons. Technically the sale of slaves is permitted, but since local law applies outside the enclave, this is futile in lands where slavery is outlawed. An enclave normally sells scrolls of 0-level spells for the cost of creating them if the customer buys an equal number of other magic items (including potions and scrolls of 1st level or higher). The Law of Trade also states that the Thayans can accept slaves as payment for items, and these slaves can be legally transported within the borders of the sovereign nation on the way to Thay. Most antislavery countries require that a potential slave in this situation must either be willing (such as a man selling himself into slavery to provide for his family) or a criminal convicted of a serious offense (such as a murderer or a traitor). The local government sometimes even trades criminals in exchange for Thayan goods.
The Law of Crafting: This law dictates what the Thayans will and will not create for slave to the general public. Normally an enclave only produces potions, scrolls (of up to 4th level spells), wands, +1 armor, +1 weapons, and minor wondrous items. None of these may have abilities easily used for crime (such as potions of invisibility or a wand of charm person) or overtly destructive (such as a wand of fireball). They may also cast spells for hire. In general, the Thayans never create an item worth more than 2,000 GP, because such items dominate limited resources that could be used to produce cheaper and more desirable products. All items produced in an enclave are required to bear the mark of the Red Wizards and the insignia of the city where the enclave is located. They also refuse to create dangerous items (as described above) because should someone be harmed with an item created in an enclave, the Thayans could be held responsible. This policy also prevents such items from being used against them.
In exchange for these demands, the Thayans agree to donate 1% of the enclave's profit to the local government. The actual amount is rather soft, since an accurate count is not provided for the local government, and some enclaves allocate a portion of these funds to bribe local guardsmen and officials. Most enclave contracts include brief but regular periods of military service by the wizards in the enclave's employ, which allows the local government access to more spell casters.
Since the inception of the Thayan enclave, their numbers have increased quickly. Within the lands bordering on the Inner Sea, nearly ever (90%) metropolis-level locations has an enclave of some sort. Most (75%) large cities have one, and man (50%) small cities do, some (30%) large towns do, and a few (10%) small towns have an enclave, while smaller settlements might have a single Thayan representative or none at all. A typical enclave holds a number of Thayans equal to 1% of the settlement's population. Guards and other support staff for the wizards, including servants, assistants, and mundane artisans, make up at least half of the enclave population. The remainder are wizards of various levels (some with levels in the Red Wizard prestige class). The highest-level wizard is the leader of the enclave, and always has at least one level in the Red wizard prestige class.
Any degree of influence the Thayvians gain in Silverymoon will be smaller than the influence I, as regent, hold. I do not have to worry about the Thayans using what (relativley little, in a metropolitan center such as Silverymoon) economic influence they have to order me around.
There is a possibility that the Thayans gain a foothold in the local economy, taking jobs from local merchants. As a firm believer of laissez-faire, it is not my place to attempt to influence against this. It is as it is. If the Thayans do supplant locals in the market, it is because the Thayans are able to sell better goods, cheaper goods, more goods, whatever, to those who are buying them. My duty is to rule Silverymoon, not make sure "jobs stay local". An extremely large-scale example of this would threaten the security of Silverymoon. As I said however, because Silverymoon is a vast metropolitan center, with varying mercantile factions, and influence and foothold the Thayans gain is minimal.
Meanwhile, as the city is in an uproar over what has happened, the Thayans begin to show up. They smile and welcome those (though admittedly few) customers who wish to buy their wares. They hide their evil actions and speak to your people with snake-like silver tongues. Few buy into their honeyed words, but some do and begin to buy the wares of the Red Wizards, helping them make small profits.
Of course, behind their mercantile façade they plot for ways to exploit the wonderful opportunity you have given them to spread their influence like a cancer throughout the region. You obviously do not want to be a puppet for the Red Wizards and they are fully aware that in the long run you and they shall come to odds. They need more influence over you, and as such they decide to turn enemy against enemy.
Those that are in the town who oppose you for allowing the Red Wizards in present the perfect opportunity for this. The Red Wizards secretly pay a bard to speak ill about them – to play up all the vile things – and to paint you as conspiring with them. Songs are being sung by this bard in tavern after tavern throughout the city of your wickedness. "Lord Karsus," he speaks in a tale that circulates around the city, "is not truly the lord of our beloved Jewel of the North, but the Lord of the Whip and Lash. A friend of Thay and traitor to our city!"
The Harpers likewise, share similar thoughts, and are beginning to work against you. The Thayans, they reason, have not yet grown in power enough to be a real threat, but you and your actions put the entire city (if not the entire region) in danger.
The Red Wizards walk freely through the city. By the law you signed, the Knights of Silver and the Spellguard must protect them from the citizens who would do them harm. The Red Wizards play upon the Knights of Silver and Spellguard resentment of them by sending out minor Red Wizard agents from their enclave. They are sent to do minor task (shopping for example) in their Red Robes, almost as if they wanted to be targeted. They move through districts of the city that they know are the most prone to violence against them, and thus force the Knights of Silver and the Spellguard to repel the very people they have sworn to protect – arresting more than a handful and having to put to death several who attempted to take the life of a Red Wizard.
A riot breaks out in the Goodman’s District and the Spellguard and the Knights are forced to put it down, killing several citizens in the process, though the Red Wizard escapes unharmed. The Enclave sends its apologies to you and gives a very public and very open thanks to the Spellguard and the Knights for coming to their aid as well as your continued support for the ideals of mercantile freedom. (This, of course, only further angers those against you and them in the city.)
The Bard mentioned previously begins to up his anti and falls just short of calling for open rebellion and treasonous actions.
The Red Wizards laugh among themselves as they pull more strings. By now they have agents throughout the city, and one such agent is a trusted friend of a higher ranking member of the Spellguard. That agent is used to poison that Spellguard agents thoughts, who has bought into the tales of the aforementioned bard, as well as hating to protect the Red Wizards and harm the citizens of Silverymoon. That trusted friend speaks, hypothetically of course, of what it would be like to remove you from power and how your replacement could banish the Red Wizards from the city.
Overtime, this leads that Spellguard Agent to thoughts of treason and assassination.
Throughout all of this the Red Wizards have begun to purchase new land throughout the city and surrounding areas. They have started new businesses and former businesspersons have been undercut and forced out of the market. The Thayans then raise the prices of their wares once they have a monopoly. Additionally, they have purchased many outlaying farms that have been devastated due to orcish raids. They have also purchased the dominant trading company of the city. Because of this they control 65% of the food imported to Silverymoon, as they not only control many of the outlaying farms, but also control food imports from areas such as the Dalelands. To make matters worse Orcs seem to be harassing all caravans on the roads, but mostly leave the Red Wizards alone because of their superior security forces (it would be suicide to attack). (Of course, the Red Wizards through various third parties have paid several Orc tribes to attack the caravans including their own…)
All of the above has been used to isolate you from your allies and the people you rule. The Red Wizards defend you and pose as your ally. As you need favors they happily do all that they can to aid you, all the while making careful note of each and every favor so that they may collect in the future.
Meanwhile, the aforementioned Spellguard agent has joined the bard and his secret rebellion group. They are plotting treason against you and are plotting to have you assassinated. Some other members of the Knights of Silver and the Spellguard secretly join sharing similar thoughts and feelings.
To culminate a plan to finally isolate you from the rest of the city, the bard encourages an assassination attempt on your life. The rotation list of your personal bodyguard is secretly altered by an ally of the group to ensure that members of their group and sympathizers are all on a single bodyguard shift. Because such shifts are timed and the Red Wizards have agents within the group they not only know the plan but when it will take place.
The leader of the enclave stages a meeting with you at the same time. It appears as if it is just like any normal meeting. The Red Wizard speaks of various imports and exports, some minor problems in the outlaying farms, and then (in earshot of your assassins) speaks highly of the Knights of Silver and the Spellguard. He begins to speak of the virtues of both organizations and how it has been such a great honor to be protected by them. He does this in order to trigger a desired reaction: hatred and he gets it. They attempt to assassinate you both, then and there, in the throne room, catching those not part of the group by surprise.
The Red Wizard of course is quick to act. He shoves you out of the way of an attack by a Knight of Silver, and then proceeds to kill and subdue them all along with non-traitorous Spellguard Agents and Knights on duty.
As a result of this the Spellguard and the Knights of Silver suffer a humiliating public embarrassment, but to make matters worse those that were slain or captured are secretly called martyrs by some and "the true heroes of Silverymoon."
The enclave leader then stays with you the remainder of the day and even calls for other members (guards and Red Wizards) from the enclave to join him. There is great fear that they will try again. Throughout the rest of the day the enclave leader encourages you to accept the enclaves protection. He speaks of his disappointment in the Knights of Silver and the Spellguard for not locating and finding such traitors in their ranks, and furthermore he makes it clear that he would never allow such a thing to happen. After all, you allowed them in the city and without you they would be banished or killed. Thus, they have every reason and motive to protect you from harm and no motive to see you killed, which in turn makes them the perfect guards. If you are insistent the Red Wizard begins to lament over what would happen to Silverymoon should you perish. Of how the people would starve as their trading company is shut down and imports slow, of how they are motivated by a blind hatred of the Red Wizards. He speaks of the actions of his people, and then speaks against them – saying that if he had a choice he would change it all. Ultimately, whether you liked it or not, you received guards and Red Wizards from the enclave as (at worst) supplements to your current bodyguard.
This in turn allows the Red Wizards to keep a close eye upon you and further isolate you from the people forcing you into a bubble of their design. The Harpers, likewise throughout all of this, have worked against you, but now that you have so blatantly throw in your lot with the Red Wizards they will work to dispose of you.
Overtime, the Red Wizards use various excuses to bring more and more individuals loyal to them – from Thay – into the city. All for your protection and the protection of their mercantile interests. Eventually, it becomes evident that you are little more than a puppet and prisoner in your own city – willingly or unwillingly. You cannot force the Red Wizards to leave for now they out number even that of your own men, and to do so would not only be a violation of contract you have made with them, but would result in open conflict in the streets, and for certain your own death.
You, in effect, become a slave in everything but name, and because of your foolishness the Red Wizards now control Silverymoon and are spreading their influence throughout the North. Furthermore, the Lords Alliance is no more and Silverymoon is slowly but surely turned into a police state as the Red Wizards begin to round up all known traitors to you and them. (Considering that they had a hand in it all a long and know of all the secret groups involved this is rather easy.) The Spellguard and the Knights of Silver are dissolved and all pretense that once existed is now gone. All of Silverymoon is now an extension of Thay.
Can you prevent this? Not really. You sealed your fate the day you allowed the Red Wizards entrance. Why? Because you cannot expel them from the city. They own the land and that land belongs to Thay, and to do so would risk going against the very principles you espoused for allowing them entrance. Furthermore, it would have resulted in bloodshed in the street as the Red Wizards strove to protect their land.
Even if the plans did not go as perfectly as desired there is little you could do. If a agent of the enclave is caught in doing something illegal, he is executed for his crimes by the Red Wizards. You will never connect any wrong doing back to the leaders of the enclave because they are careful to shield themselves from any such activities. Thus, at best you will only nab minor individuals who they view as expendable and replaceable anyway.
In either event, it will only serve to further the peoples perceptions of them, which is utterly irrelevant because they still must purchase goods and services from the Red Wizards if they want to eat as they control the majority of food imports into the city.
Of course, gaining control of Silverymoon was their desired goal from the start. They cared little for being true merchants, as it was only a method of gaining control and influence within your economy and city.
But I think we've pretty much covered everything here worthwhile discussing.
Oh, A thread about the Red Wizards and Zhents vs. newer villains
I agree with Meldread on Thaymart. Basically, the Thayans are AWFUL people in my games. It's sort of like reducing the looming Soviet menace into your local pawnshop guys.
Hah! But why would a bunch of COMMIES be interested in setting up a capitalist Wal-Mart?:P
Re: The Simbul. While canon has always established Mystra has reigned in the Simbul, isn't it a major portion of her background that she attempted to destroy the Thayans not soon after her initial victories and then promptly got her butt handed to her? I always liked the idea the Simbul doesn't quite realize the Thayans deploy their useless and expendable Mid-Level managers to die attacking her.
Well, like I said before, if the Thayans were so easy to defeat, they probably would not be the threat they are (they might have never been able to become a threat in the first place).
So, I more or less agree with what you're saying.If you ask me, the Realms were starting to get a little too peaceful and orderly for a while there. The more looming antagonists appear, the better. The cold war situation just got a little colder for the good guys, and the PCs are there to even out the odds.
See, I never agreed that the Realms were getting too peaceful and orderly--there's always been darkness lurking beneath the surface. That's usually how evil works in the Realms...not as "looming antagonists" but ghosts working in the shadows (and no, I don't mean "ghosts" in the literal sense).
Furthermore, as Charles said, the Zhents are also employing the 'We're not really evil we're just merchants' shtick. I don't like the overlap. That also overlooks the fact that there are other nations - Sembia and Amn being the most well known - who also employ similar tactics.
But Amn and Sembia ultimately are just mercantile nations, not evil organizations pretending to be mercantile nations.
I would like to see an enemy in the Realms that is just... too powerful. Sure, you could go head on with their legions. You can defeat them, but they will just send another. And another. And another. And another. And they will not stop until you are worn down, ground into dust, and once that happens they will trample over you and continue rolling forward.
In this way, taking them head on is not an option. It requires guile, stealth and clever thinking. It is a bit like in Star Wars where the Rebels had to face off against the Empire. They were out numbered. Attacking the Empire head on was not an option. They had to pick their battles carefully and when they fought they had to deal decisive blows. If they failed at this the Empire would have crushed them.
It is the same in the Lord of the Rings. Everyone could have just gathered together and stormed Mordor, and they might have made a minor dent in their forces. However, they would have eventually been overwhelmed. Instead, they had to use guile and stealth, fight the battles that they had to fight, and hope Frodo could deal the decisive blow by destroying the Ring.
That is something the Realms lacks. They lack that sense of looming evil, that sense of a foe that will overwhelm you in sheer power and numbers. The Zhents failed at that and really if a DM tried to retcon the Zhents as the 'evil empire' it would be hard to take them seriously. It would require over the top acts just to prove a point.
Yes, that is something the Realms lacks, but not to it's detriment.
Not every setting needs to have a Mordor, or an Iuz, or a Galactic Empire.
Charles-
That is true, but that has been because WotC has consistently tried to redeem them. I just don't think it has worked. Just look at the response to the Shadowdale Module and how many complained about how such events could never happen.
I don't think that proves your point.
I don't think most people here have a problem with evil being competent. However, they doesn't mean it's OK to make the forces of good out to be "stupid" (how competent is evil if it can't win without good being stupid?).
Lord Karsus-
Aside from the reasons I mentioned previously a blind bat (and all bats are blind) can clearly see through the Red Wizard's intentions.
Bats aren't blind.
First off, your average commoner probably knows very little about these things. Most people never leave their village, let alone delve into matters like geography and politics. Newspapers aren't present yet, and even that would be under the assumption that they can all read and write. Therefore, the common folk are pretty much clueless when it comes to events that happen outside of their immediate surroundings. What little they've heard about Thay is mostly from old wives' tales and the odd rumor here and there (often obviously exaggerated), so not exactly set-in-stone truth material.
Some skepticism would be present, but the citizens of Silverymoon (which you picked as an example) aren't exactly xenophobic, and they have trust in their leaders' decisions. If you decided to let them in, and they showed themselves in good light (and as it's in their best interest to do so, you can rest assured that they would), the people would quickly change their minds (especially if they stand to profit on a personal level, no matter how little - and that's exactly what convenient prices and high quality utility items and potions represent). After all, the story you heard from the local drunk about a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy tends to pale when compared to your own first-hand experiences - getting that everburning torch you've always wanted at half price, chatting with cute promo-girls at the Enclave opening night, getting free rounds of drinks whenever Bob Thayan comes down to the tavern, and so on. That's just how things work in real life.
Keep in mind that Silverymoon is far removed from Thay, and never had any direct confrontations with the red wizards (as far as I can remember), so people wouldn't have deeper, personal reasons to hate them. The business plan would obviously fail in Rashemen, but then again, they're not trying to open a chain of Enclaves there, are they?
Meldread, you draw a lot of conclusions here based purely on assumptions and personal opinion. I didn't read the entire post, but from what I've seen, you are just playing out an imaginary scenario that unrolls the way you want it to. It hardly proves anything.
You know, I have to agree. That's the trouble with hypothetical examples, eh?
Keep in mind that Silverymoon is far removed from Thay, and never had any direct confrontations with the red wizards (as far as I can remember), so people wouldn't have deeper, personal reasons to hate them. The business plan would obviously fail in Rashemen, but then again, they're not trying to open a chain of Enclaves there, are they?
Actually, it's a lot simpler than Meldread describes it. Lady Alustriel rules the Silver Marches. Lady Alustriel is an ally with her sister the Simbul. The Rashemi worship Mystra, the Red Wizards worship Kossuth. The Silverymooners are a progress society that supplies the Harpers with massive aid, the Red Wizards are a Slave holding race that is a primary enemy of said group.
Oh yes, and the Red Wizards have tried at least once to overthrow Lady Alustriel and slay her (The Seven Sisters novel).
So, there's no way in Hell they'd let the Red Wizards stay.
And yet again we stumble into the Chosen subject. Take a different city then. Location wasn't the root of our discussion, reputation and PR were.
Not necessarilly. I'm pointing out the Wizards are not *UNKNOWN* to people. I doubt Meldread is right and the average commoner has an irrational hatred/paranoia about Red Wizards when I imagine local Orcs are more to his fears but they've got a pretty nasty rep spread about the world.
* Cyndre is one of the most hated men in the Moonshaes and his defeat along with his servants was legendary.
* The Red Wizards are going to be unwelcome in a place controlled by The Lords of Waterdeep that includes Khelben or Larael.
* The Rashemi and Agarlarond are of course not going to help.
* Mulhorand hates the Red Wizards for simply being defiant subjects.
* Cormyr's monarchy has also been nearly overthrown by Red Wizards acting as terrorists and it's known they've tried several times along with the Zhents.
* Lhao is the monarch of Tethyr and Elminster's former apprentice.
* The Shades would scoff and laugh at the Red Wizards.
* So would Halruaa.
So, it's questionable where they're going to set up shop. I mean, Zhentil Keep MIGHT allow them but is that really the kind of place they want to be?
I am sure they could set up some enclaves in places like Chessenta, Unther (pre-Mulhorandi Invasion), and other areas in the reach. People can be bribed, after all, and most people have a price - even if it is blackmail.
Outside of those areas we have to look to areas which are strongly influenced by the Zhents. If the Zhents trade heavily with a city state or nation then they are likely to work against the Red Wizards. Why do they want them showing up as competition? On top of that the Zhents, if they are operating in an area, have already had time to set up and either entrench their own puppets in government or have others under their thumb. Even if the Red Wizards manage to get past the Zhents in areas of Zhent influence they will still be undermined by them at every turn.
In places where they MIGHT be successful the cities are likely to fall into the control of the Red Wizards either directly or indirectly. (As THAT is their GOAL.) Who here wants the Red Wizards power to sweep all across the Reach and beyond? Not me. I'd rather them just be a threat from 'far, far away.'
In places where they MIGHT be successful the cities are likely to fall into the control of the Red Wizards either directly or indirectly. (As THAT is their GOAL.) Who here wants the Red Wizards power to sweep all across the Reach and beyond? Not me. I'd rather them just be a threat from 'far, far away.'
-What we want, and what we don't want is a non-factor. As demonstrated, that the Red Wizards turn to mercantalism to augment their plots to take over the world is a natural progression and evolution of the Thayan "wehrmacht"- which has been my point since post number 1 on the subject.
I'm just saying that selling magic and using wizards for it is a mistake.
I'm just saying that selling magic and using wizards for it is a mistake.
-Who else exists in Thay, asides for Wizards, who happen to cowl themselves in Red? Rhetorical question, rhetorical question...
However, from a design perspective we have the Zhents doing the same thing, we have Sembia and we have Amn, and that does not even include the fact that every single nation heavily relies on trade and therefore could do the same to a limited extent.
Provided the Council of Six has not changed hands since the Lands of Intrigue has come out here are the alignments of the Council of Six members:
Erlranther Alibakkar - Lawful Evil
Phaan Colwyvv - Chaotic Evil
Qar Jysstev - Neutral Evil
Rhinnom Dannihyr - Chaotic Evil
Tyrda Q`Helvor - Neutral
Pehllus Tanislove - Chaotic Neutral
Obviously, the Council of Six, the leaders of Amn - and by extension the nation as a whole - are not the happy-fun-love people type. Amn not only has the means to do the same thing the Red Wizards are doing, but also has a better reputation and would conduct themselves exactly the way the Red Wizards conduct themselves currently.
Sembia, likewise, was not much different from Amn; although now that they are a smoking crater with what is left turned into shade-puppets... they really are not contenders anymore.
The Zhents, also, can do the same as Amn though they face similar problems as the Red Wizards.
Anyway, my argument is from a design standpoint. Why turn one of the few militarily aggressive nations into a rather peaceful merchant nation when we already had two such nations that based themselves around the same exact concept? It seems redundant and to make matters worse Amn gets no attention. It could have been a way to bring Amn more in contact with the rest of the setting.
However, from a design perspective we have the Zhents doing the same thing, we have Sembia and we have Amn, and that does not even include the fact that every single nation heavily relies on trade and therefore could do the same to a limited extent.
Anyway, my argument is from a design standpoint. Why turn one of the few militarily aggressive nations into a rather peaceful merchant nation when we already had two such nations that based themselves around the same exact concept? It seems redundant and to make matters worse Amn gets no attention. It could have been a way to bring Amn more in contact with the rest of the setting.
-As I have pointed out on more than one occasion, that other entities exist that do (basically) the same thing, while redundant in your, my, and possibly everyone elses' eyes, that does not represent a bar into entry. The local mall near my mom's, for instance: Sears, J.C. Penny, and Macys, are all the "flagship" stores. Can you name a difference in the products Sears, J.C. Penny and Macys sells? ;)
-Sears has a little more focus on automotives, and sport, than the other two, but effectivley, the three are all the same stores, different owners.
-As I have pointed out on more than one occasion, that other entities exist that do (basically) the same thing, while redundant in your, my, and possibly everyone elses' eyes, that does not represent a bar into entry. The local mall near my mom's, for instance: Sears, J.C. Penny, and Macys, are all the "flagship" stores. Can you name a difference in the products Sears, J.C. Penny and Macys sells? ;)
-Sears has a little more focus on automotives, and sport, than the other two, but effectivley, the three are all the same stores, different owners.
Redundancy is way better, it allows me to surprise my players. When they meet the third evil-lookig merchang from Mulmaster they don't get surprised, when the same merchant is bald and wearing red they get on their edges because they don't know what evil-looking bald, wearing read robes, merchant can do.
That's why I also despise the culling of gods for 4th edition, I love redundancy when it has subtle aspects that diferentiates them, it gives me the power to constantly surprise my players.
Except, of course, Sears, J.C. Penny, and Macys don't have magical powers and aren't assassinating each other behind the scenes. ;)
You don't see a sales agent from Sears spying on the manager of Macy's and you don't see the manager from J.C. Penny plotting to get Sears thrown from the store - which could cause untold havoc within the mall (and perhaps erupt into violence). :P
Other than that... :P
But yeah that is one of the practical problems I have with the whole thing, it forces evil into fighting evil when those same evil organizations have already been beat into the ground. It gives other organizations such as the Harpers the perfect opportunity to turn one against another and basically have it easy.
I like it when the good guys (can we even call the Harper's good guys?) sweat a little. I like to watch them struggle and come up with interesting solutions to difficult problems. When a Red Wizard shows up to town EVERYONE knows what to expect. The same for a Zhent. When Amn shows up to town? Well, they are a nation of merchants, and while they may have a reputation of being cutthroat in that department, they may otherwise be swell folks! It raises less red flags and allows them to get more done without being ooga-booga-take-you-over-from-the-inside obvious. It also lets them easily get into places a Red Wizard never could - Silverymoon as an example.
(Seriously, if Alustriel lost her mind and allowed Red Wizards into Silverymoon, there are so many Harpers there they would just kill them before they set up shop. Then Thay would claim Silverymoon broke their agreement by not protecting them, blah blah blah.)
Except, of course, Sears, J.C. Penny, and Macys don't have magical powers and aren't assassinating each other behind the scenes. ;)
-That's what you think.
But yeah that is one of the practical problems I have with the whole thing, it forces evil into fighting evil when those same evil organizations have already been beat into the ground. It gives other organizations such as the Harpers the perfect opportunity to turn one against another and basically have it easy.
-There is not enough of an emphasis on the evil vs. evil conflicts, and the good vs. good conflicts (Moonstars vs. Harpers, for instance).
Do we really want seemingly unassailable evil monoliths dominating the entire Faerunian landscape? I, for one, certainly don't... Sure, it works in a regional microcosm, but that's as far as I'd want it to go.
My thoughts exactly.
We were talking about a few enclaves here and there, which would serve as hooks and excuses for bringing the red wizards into a campaign (as player characters, temporary allies, or ominous conspirators -- even in places where it would otherwise be difficult to justify their presence) more than anything else.
That's all there is to it... No need to go into paranoid predictions about the distant future. Even for Thay, world domination would be a very, very difficult task to accomplish (if possible at all). And being a nation of wizards, they are probably keenly aware of that.
Actually, it's a lot simpler than Meldread describes it. Lady Alustriel rules the Silver Marches. Lady Alustriel is an ally with her sister the Simbul. The Rashemi worship Mystra, the Red Wizards worship Kossuth. The Silverymooners are a progress society that supplies the Harpers with massive aid, the Red Wizards are a Slave holding race that is a primary enemy of said group.
Oh yes, and the Red Wizards have tried at least once to overthrow Lady Alustriel and slay her (The Seven Sisters novel).
So, there's no way in Hell they'd let the Red Wizards stay.
Remember, though--rulers of the Silver Marches, IIRC from the sourcebook, can only rule for 7 years. Alustriel won't be in charge forever.
Just figured I'd point that out.
-As I have pointed out on more than one occasion, that other entities exist that do (basically) the same thing, while redundant in your, my, and possibly everyone elses' eyes, that does not represent a bar into entry. The local mall near my mom's, for instance: Sears, J.C. Penny, and Macys, are all the "flagship" stores. Can you name a difference in the products Sears, J.C. Penny and Macys sells? ;)
-Sears has a little more focus on automotives, and sport, than the other two, but effectivley, the three are all the same stores, different owners.
But IIRC, only MACY'S has a cosmetics department!
Or at least, that's how it is at the stores close to me. As far as I'm concerned, it's a very important difference.;) I think Macy's has a reputation of being a bit higher-end too.
Not that this has anything to do with anything. :p
Do we really want seemingly unassailable evil monoliths dominating the entire Faerunian landscape? I, for one, certainly don't...
I don't, either.
As I said before, not every setting needs to have Mordor, Iuz, etc.
I don't, either.
As I said before, not every setting needs to have Mordor, Iuz, etc.
Counterpoint, just because FR has a Mordor doesn't mean that it will dominate the setting.
Thay IS Mordor, it's just one that's in its own neat little corner.
But IIRC, only MACY'S has a cosmetics department!
-That's true. Each one does have their own little niche. As I mentioned Sears has an automotive department. Macy's has cosmetics. JC Penny has...
-Supposedly, the Strauss family, the founders of Macy's, are distant relatives of mine. My Grandmother's cousins, or second cousins, or something to that effect.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a very important difference.;)
-Well, yeah, being a girl and all.
Thay IS Mordor, it's just one that's in its own neat little corner.
-I don't really think so. While the overlying concepts and the geography are similar, I don't see very much "concrete evidence" to link the two.
-I don't really think so. While the overlying concepts and the geography are similar, I don't see very much "concrete evidence" to link the two.
I see Thay becoming Mordor actually.
Before, the Bloodstone modules blatantly made Zhengyi's realm Mordor.
Now Ssass Tam is the Witch King.
I see Thay becoming Mordor actually.
-The future, who knows. If Szass Tam consolidates power, it will certainly be a step in that direction. The main piece of evidence I had to refute the parallels was that Szass Tam, the "Sauron" of Thay, doesn't rule his realm with an iron fist. Technically, his say isn't more or less important than any of the other Zukirs.
-The prevalence of the Church of Kossuth also throws a wrench into things. They provide an 'alternative' power source from the dominating Red Wizards (Szass Tam) that really isn't present in Mordor.
Counterpoint, just because FR has a Mordor doesn't mean that it will dominate the setting.
Thay IS Mordor, it's just one that's in its own neat little corner.
I guess I disagree, because if Thay doesn't dominate the setting (which is good), then to me it's not really a "Mordor".
-Supposedly, the Strauss family, the founders of Macy's, are distant relatives of mine. My Grandmother's cousins, or second cousins, or something to that effect.
That's pretty neat!
-Well, yeah, being a girl and all.
Yes.
Before, the Bloodstone modules blatantly made Zhengyi's realm Mordor.
I wouldn't doubt it, because RAS seems to be unabashedly a LoTR fan, to the point where he'll inject LotR stuff into the Realms.
Not that I'd consider that great world design (the FR is not LotR).
Thay IS Mordor, it's just one that's in its own neat little corner.
Doesn't look like a corner to me.
Doesn't look like a corner to me.
-Corner of Faerûn. More or less.
I wouldn't doubt it, because RAS seems to be unabashedly a LoTR fan, to the point where he'll inject LotR stuff into the Realms.
Not that I'd consider that great world design (the FR is not LotR).
To be fair, Ed has admitted his far younger self wasn't ENTIRELY unique in places. He's just expanded on what was originally meant as analogues in his Forgotten Realms to BE original.
Things from other sources that had analogues in the original Realms include.
* Earthsea (Moonshaes)
* Hyborea's Stygia (Mulhorand)
* Valinor (Evermeet)
And probably a few other bits and pieces.
Still, I basically just meant by my comment that Thay is a blasted Hell-Hole land that's controlled by EVILLLLLllll and is a constant ever present threat to the free peoples of Faerun. Not that it's a place with a single tower controlled by a Fallen Solar Deva.
To be fair, Ed has admitted his far younger self wasn't ENTIRELY unique in places. He's just expanded on what was originally meant as analogues in his Forgotten Realms to BE original.
-Nothing can be completely original. It's just impossible. All fantasy is based on our own cultures and histories, to a degree. I mean, the people in Faerûn wear shirts, pants and dresses, right? There you go.
-Most of the seperation between Faerûnian locales and the examples that stemmed them contain is satisfactory for me. There are very few elements that, in my mind, don't have enough seperation. This is, of course, not counting Maztica, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and Osse.
-Nothing can be completely original. It's just impossible. All fantasy is based on our own cultures and histories, to a degree. I mean, the people in Faerûn wear shirts, pants and dresses, right? There you go.
I want to see a part that doesn't wear clothes.
Time for us to create "Nakey Island". :D
As an aside, I had an idea for a locale the other day, and I don't 'think' anything like it has ever been done before. I'm keeping it under wraps for now, because its quite good, if I do say so myself. ;)
As an aside, I had an idea for a locale the other day, and I don't 'think' anything like it has ever been done before. I'm keeping it under wraps for now, because its quite good, if I do say so myself. ;)
-Keeping Nakey Island under wraps?
To be fair, Ed has admitted his far younger self wasn't ENTIRELY unique in places. He's just expanded on what was originally meant as analogues in his Forgotten Realms to BE original.
Things from other sources that had analogues in the original Realms include.
* Earthsea (Moonshaes)
* Hyborea's Stygia (Mulhorand)
* Valinor (Evermeet)
The Moonshaes weren't done by Ed, but still your point is well-taken.
This is about the original.
Doesn't look like a corner to me.
I SO want and need that map Markus. And is there a larger version available?
I won't point out that most are ultimately retooled and fantastical versions our imagined mythic past... so... not really all that original in the slightest. Nothing really is when it comes down to it, with very, very few real exceptions.
-Yeah, that's what I "just" said:
-Nothing can be completely original. It's just impossible. All fantasy is based on our own cultures and histories, to a degree. I mean, the people in Faerûn wear shirts, pants and dresses, right? There you go.
-Most of the seperation between Faerûnian locales and the examples that stemmed them contain is satisfactory for me. There are very few elements that, in my mind, don't have enough seperation. This is, of course, not counting Maztica, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, and Osse.
-Keeping Nakey Island under wraps?
Shhhhhhh... I have had almost a year of quiet niceness on Nakey Island, you folk are gonna make it a tourist-trap. :D
Indeed you did... missed it in the whole Nakey Island thing.
-You didn't miss much.
Shhhhhhh... I have had almost a year of quiet niceness on Nakey Island, you folk are gonna make it a tourist-trap. :D
-So, that's where you've been...
Who comes up with THIS stuff? ;)
I believe a nudist colony of Gnomes lives there, BTW.
As to Karyth's question, there is a HUGE version of it (140" x 81") in my computer, but the areas outside of Faerûn are FAR from finished - it's more or less a labor of love. When I add the bottom islands of Zakhara on, it goes all the way to 96" tall (exactly 8 feet!), which gave me the idea of painting it onto one wall of my house. :D
Maybe I'lll just find a really giagantic printer and just wallpaper the whole thing on.
Maybe I'lll just find a really giagantic printer and just wallpaper the whole thing on.
I have the greater version of Faerûn's map hanged in one of my walls.
Nakey Island?
Who comes up with THIS stuff? ;)
-Indeed.
As to Karyth's question, there is a HUGE version of it (140" x 81") in my computer, but the areas outside of Faerûn are FAR from finished - it's more or less a labor of love. When I add the bottom islands of Zakhara on, it goes all the way to 96" tall (exactly 8 feet!), which gave me the idea of painting it onto one wall of my house. :D
-Are you planning on adding in Maztica? And those 'Terra Incognita' areas, blank, of course? That'd make the map massive in size, but, man oh man, would it be sweet...
Back to the original point, abusing the storyline by interjecting inappropriate characters (the Chosen are but one possibility) is a long time problem (I played a level 9 mage that had met 7 of the 12 gods in the campaign and was on first name/poker night terms with 2! So much for divine awe!). My American Lit prof griped about Mark Twain bringing in Tom Sawyer at the end of Huckleberry Finn to steal the show. Ideally, the 'heroes' remain 'heroes', even when usurped by others in the storyline (Think Ghostbusters, when the Gov't guy has the power grid shut down.), they are the ones who save the day. Merely trotting 'ubertwinks' across the stage to impress the players is a sad defaulting of the GM's role, and as this was a feature pushed at conventions, it became one of the reasons I was never been impressed by FR, back in the day. (Then came a D&D hiatus before 3.0 and I 'discovered' all this neat work that had been done and kicked myself for not raiding it earlier!)
The central problem is the GM failing to remember that the focus must be on the characters and their actions, not on the background tinsel. Doubt me? Go watch Thornton Wilder's Our Town. Then Flame me all you want.
We care!
You have enough common sense to be one of the Hands of Karsus.
-Hey, I don't give out that title like it's candy. Being a Hand of Karsus is hard work. Common sense is just one of the many , many criteria.
-Hey, I don't give out that title like it's candy. Being a Hand of Karsus is hard work. Common sense is just one of the many , many criteria.
It's a competitive environment, I admit - the kind of thing you put straight on top when you write your D&D resume ;)
Anywho, I'm not opposed to cameos, but they should either be a) incognito ("Beg your pardon young sirs, which way to Scardale") or when the PCs want it to be and are ready (i.e. Zhents eventually gettin a mission from Scylla Darkhope, I hope I didn't butcher the name too bad). Otherwise, it can get a bit too common.
But hey, just because I don't think it's a good idea doesn't mean a certain party won't enjoy it. If everyone in the party likes crashing at Storm's place every second Wednesday, sure.
It's a competitive environment, I admit - the kind of thing you put straight on top when you write your D&D resume ;)
-It is. Look at Ivelen's title.
;)
BTW, what is the best picture of how Karsus looked in life? I wonder how the symbol of the Hands would look like. I'm thinking of something somewhat similar to the symbol of Azuth, hand and all. However, it's quite possible that skin color varies, or there is a signature ring or two that I'm missing.
I'd be more in favor of something that looked more like an inverted mountaintop pitching downward, with a motto like 'maybe we'll get it right next time...' :P :D
Heh, I guess it's only a matter of time before someone uses the Hands of Karsus in their FR campaign... I hope I remember them when I need a secretive, mystical organization.
-Sure, sure. They could be a cult that operates in a manner quite opposite of the Cult of the Shattered Peak, from LEoF.
BTW, what is the best picture of how Karsus looked in life?
-While it isn't my best side, I like the picture in Magic of Faerûn. And then, of course, there is Chibi Karsus.
I wonder how the symbol of the Hands would look like.
-Good question.
BTW, what is the best picture of how Karsus looked in life?
do you know who Marty Feldman is?
do you know who Marty Feldman is?
-Because you made me laugh there, I won't have your soul painfully rendered from your physical body and tortured for a thousand years.
-Because you made me laugh there, I won't have your soul painfully rendered from your physical body and tortured for a thousand years.
I appreciate that.
-Because you made me laugh there, I won't have your soul painfully rendered from your physical body and tortured for a thousand years.
Hmm, what, oh good to know. I'm borrowing your expertise to torture someone else and the matter is time sensitive.
Hmm, what, oh good to know. I'm borrowing your expertise to torture someone else and the matter is time sensitive.
-Good to know my work is appreciated.
just wondering if there is any update as to which of the Seven Sisters survive the Spellplague. Have I missed anything, or are we purple from holding our breath?
Hello everyone,
just wondering if there is any update as to which of the Seven Sisters survive the Spellplague. Have I missed anything, or are we purple from holding our breath?
-We're still holding our breath, and probably will continue so until the 4e FRCS is published. You do know about Sylûne?
-No problem. We're tight, you and me.
Lord Karsus and I are tight eh? You hear that everyone. I dare ya to mess with me now. :evillaugh
I'm not in violation of our truce unless I actually let it fall. Now then I need some information from Cyric and I'm cleared to offer the closest thing to a comprehensive study on Table Magic printed in the last 1200 years and some interesting toys from about 30,000 years ago.
You do know about Sylûne?
Show
That she was put to rest? Yes, I'm aware of that... Such an ignoble fate for one of the Seven, though going mad from the Spellplague certainly isn't going to be any better. *sigh*
ShowThat she was put to rest? Yes, I'm aware of that... Such an ignoble fate for one of the Seven, though going mad from the Spellplague certainly isn't going to be any better. *sigh*
Unlike in our world, where modern communications make that perspective available, yet where authors and RPG players happily set stories despite there being thousands or millions of people more globally significant or influential than their protagonists.
33 pages of replies to the original post.... WOW!
oh - bravo Simbul :P
and i do love what you do with the dress that lookes like curtain remnents from a fire sale...
LK
Well it doesn’t matter if the Chosen did shape Faerun's fate or not. That’s not the point. The point is, where the spotlight directed is, right? Well the issue really is if you have to be an outstanding person, a hero, it’s harder to be that among a herd of epic good aligned characters. Middle-Earth could not have sustained more than one Gandalf for instance. You just ask yourself as a player what part am I supposed to take in their neighborhood ? How can I live up to be the guy who turns the tide around these unfailable, super-human, geniuses? I mean it’s like sharing soup with a dozens guys with spoons 3 times as large as yours. You don’t get that much. End if you dare to be as gullible to suppose reading a FR-Novel isn’t going to ruin your feel of purpose within your FR-campaign and come across these countless mentioning of how all "this" is just the product of a scheme conceived by one of these guys which unfolds now in all these events. You feel tricked, to say the least. Thus one chosen had been cool; a dozen are just a repetitive overload.
Gee, with that attitude, no one should have bothered playing basketball while Jordan was playing. Or Baseball while Babe Ruth played. Or Football when Joe Montana was playing. Just because someone is good, does not mean you cannot be as good or better. Comes down to do you have to be the ONLY Star, or can you be part of the All Stars? After all, Charles BArkley, shaq, Magic, Byrd all played while Jordan did and were just as fmaous. Lou Gehrig and Ty Cobb were contemporaries of Babe Ruth and are just as famous/remembered. Dan Marino, Lawrence Taylor, and Emmet Smith all played while Joe Montana was playing and were just as famous.
The problem is not the Chosen or any other NPC's. It's this false belief that the PC's must be the center of the universe and nothing happens when they're not there. That leads to a stagnant world, not a living one.
Gee, with that attitude, no one should have bothered playing basketball while Jordan was playing. Or Baseball while Babe Ruth played. Or Football when Joe Montana was playing. Just because someone is good, does not mean you cannot be as good or better. Comes down to do you have to be the ONLY Star, or can you be part of the All Stars? After all, Charles BArkley, shaq, Magic, Byrd all played while Jordan did and were just as fmaous. Lou Gehrig and Ty Cobb were contemporaries of Babe Ruth and are just as famous/remembered. Dan Marino, Lawrence Taylor, and Emmet Smith all played while Joe Montana was playing and were just as famous.
-Those are good analogies. I like them.
Player knowledge does not equal character knowledge.
And people often make it sound as if the average person in the Realms has extensive knowledge about these high-level characters.
Player knowledge does not equal character knowledge.
Yea. This has always been one of my problems with the whole 'overpowered NPC' idea. How does some half-elven rogue living on the streets of Caer Corwell, know who Elmisnter of Shadowdale is? Or Drizzt Do'Urden? Or Alias the Swrodswoman? Or Arilyn Moonblade? Tristan and Robyn Kendrick - yea, our half-elf would know of them. Alicia and Keane too, but Storm Silverhand? Highly doubtful. And if they did, it would have been from a tavern tale or minstrel's song.
People forget that Toril is not 21st Century Earth. There is no Internet, Television, or Newspaper for Bob the Farmer in Battledale to learn of events happening in Silverymoon. The average person in Toril, is more concerned with their little part of the world and could care less about what is happening in Amn or Waterdeep (unless they live there of course). Even adventuring PC's should only be familiar with people and events form where they originated, until they've begun adventuring. And THEN, well, then they might know about Elminster or the Seven Sisters, but only through word of mouth, which means they probably see them as someone not to bother.
Since this is a US based site, please keep all responses to English, thanks!
That's a bit intolerant tbh. Are we allowed to write harbour?
That's a bit intolerant tbh. Are we allowed to write harbour?
-That'd be a dialect of English, I am guessing. "Harbour", as in sailor slang, correct?
-That'd be a dialect of English, I am guessing. "Harbour", as in sailor slang, correct?
Nope, it's English. Just that American English rules supreme here. i've not got anything against deleting the posts above, as they seemed pretty damn hostile, it's the "speak American English or shut up" i reacted to.
i've not got anything against deleting the posts above, as they seemed pretty damn hostile, it's the "speak American English or shut up" i reacted to.
But no one said that. This isn't about American English vs. British English, it's about a troll who keeps reregistering under different names.
Since this is a US based site, please keep all responses to English, thanks!
There you go. Didn't mean anything about English vs. American English, just tried proving a point, as both are recognised as two different languages, to a certain extent. The troll should be banned, yes, but hardly need to tell people to only speak English.
Jeg mener, blir jeg fjernet fra forumet fordi jeg skriver et språk bare jeg skjønner?
Nope, it's English. Just that American English rules supreme here. i've not got anything against deleting the posts above, as they seemed pretty damn hostile, it's the "speak American English or shut up" i reacted to.
-What is "harbour", then?
-That said, to save the WizO the breath, you can contact Customer Service with problems/complaints.
-What is "harbour", then?
It's a relic of the British Empire. You know, when the Brits were the most powerful nation on Earth, and they were comfortable just throwing in excess "u" 's into seemingly every word - "harbour", "colour", "flavour", etc.
It gave a certain Victorian flair to literature, as well.
Ironically, it was precisely this wastefulness which played such a crucial role in the fall of the Empire. During WWII, with the Germans putting a squeeze on shipment through the Suez Canal with their aptly named "U boats", prices of "U" imports from India skyrocketed. It was only through the emergency Lend/Lease program from the "U."S. that allowed the British to get through the war with their language intact.
Today, of course, thanks to the Internet, the supply of free, unused vowels seems to be at an all time high. Cf. "QFT," "pwned" et al.
That and its an ingenious plot by the British to cheat at Scrabble. We're on to you over here... :P :D
The British and the rest of the English speaking world, minus U.S. and perhaps Canada (not sure about them).
Me and my brother tried playing scrabble with several languages at once. French, Norwegian, English and German. The board looked... Bizarre.
There you go. Didn't mean anything about English vs. American English, just tried proving a point, as both are recognised as two different languages, to a certain extent. The troll should be banned, yes, but hardly need to tell people to only speak English.
American English IS English. To keep insisting it isn't is nasty, and makes you come off as trouble maker, yourself.
But yeah, Stigz, my brother once spelled "Donkeyrape" playing scrabble. That was quite impressive=D
Not quite the same, but that's because i'm referring to what you call British English as English. They're not exactly the same.
They are both "English", whether you like it or not. Implying that American's don't speak "real English" is just insulting.
They are both "English", whether you like it or not. Implying that American's don't speak "real English" is just insulting.
Didn't say it wasn't real. Was saying it wasn't the exact same language. When learning English in Norway, you chose between American and British English. Depending on which you choose, you're not allowed to spell harbour with a u, or doughnut without skipping half the letters.
They are both "English", whether you like it or not. Implying that American's don't speak "real English" is just insulting.
Argentina's Spanish is very different from Spain's Spanish and nobody here minds when somebody else tells us that our spanish is different.
-Now, about Mystra's Chosen...
And people often make it sound as if the average person in the Realms has extensive knowledge about these high-level characters.
Player knowledge does not equal character knowledge.
Yea. This has always been one of my problems with the whole 'overpowered NPC' idea. How does some half-elven rogue living on the streets of Caer Corwell, know who Elmisnter of Shadowdale is? Or Drizzt Do'Urden? Or Alias the Swrodswoman? Or Arilyn Moonblade? Tristan and Robyn Kendrick - yea, our half-elf would know of them. Alicia and Keane too, but Storm Silverhand? Highly doubtful. And if they did, it would have been from a tavern tale or minstrel's song.
People forget that Toril is not 21st Century Earth. There is no Internet, Television, or Newspaper for Bob the Farmer in Battledale to learn of events happening in Silverymoon. The average person in Toril, is more concerned with their little part of the world and could care less about what is happening in Amn or Waterdeep (unless they live there of course). Even adventuring PC's should only be familiar with people and events form where they originated, until they've begun adventuring. And THEN, well, then they might know about Elminster or the Seven Sisters, but only through word of mouth, which means they probably see them as someone not to bother.
Argentina's Spanish is very different from Spain's Spanish and nobody here minds when somebody else tells us that our spanish is different.
I think you missed the point, here.
Anyway, I cannot believe this topic even started, about a problem that doesn't exist.
In an attempt to get us back on topic, I reiterate.
I agree with everything you said.
Of course, sometimes people complain that if they know something as a player, there's no way they can pretend NOT to know it as a PC (not saying I agree with that rationale, though).
If any player can't even separate player knowledge from character knowledge then it's no wonder they complain so much. They are playing RPGs like computer games and expecting that every "cheat" they know can be used to "beat" the game.
I agree with everything you said.
Of course, sometimes people complain that if they know something as a player, there's no way they can pretend NOT to know it as a PC (not saying I agree with that rationale, though).
I certainly do not agree with that rationale. Character knowledge and player knowledge are two seperate things. If you can't differentiate between the two, you will learn to do so, least if you want to game at my table.
I certainly do not agree with that rationale. Character knowledge and player knowledge are two seperate things. If you can't differentiate between the two, you will learn to do so, least if you want to game at my table.
I like how you said that.
They are playing RPGs like computer games and expecting that every "cheat" they know can be used to "beat" the game.
-Never would have beaten Starcraft without 'em. ;)
-Never would have beaten Starcraft without 'em. ;)
Only the Zerg campaign was difficult enough for me to use cheats. Terrans where a piece of cake. And Protos were fun.
"Take a bow."
"but also a word of advice. a game is just that. and can be ran by any random person at any point from any aspect.. Even if its creating their own version or editing it to fit the expeirence. To take that away from a DM is to handcuff them and demote them to toddlers with DM guides." "However. Well said. And I look foreward to your next post. Brilliant. seperation of IC, OOC, NPC, and PC must be kept regardless of prior knowledge and circumstance. Go so far as to toss in a little inexperience of situations if the character is young to shake things up and keep it fresh. Ask yourself would he/she know this? Where, when and how did he/she find out. Think of it as playing in an incomplete book made a movie of personalities and circumastance with a dash of romanticism and adventure. Its what gets me by. I garauntee it will make your games more realistic and keep players knocking at your DM screen for years." Again, a lovely topic.
It also works for the whole 'Shar is blah, blah, blah in 4e FR'
Don't you think?
No, as the original refers to around about 9 NPC's in the setting, rather then an overarching theme within the setting, as Shar is.
ahhh, but see, that's just a perception issue... just like the 7 sisters and the GoM...
All in our heads.
Except when its explicitly stated as a new 'thing you need to know about the Realms'.
lol, if you say so... but saying that one case of misconception shouldn't have an effect, while allowing another one to be.... well, that just don't make much sense to me.
Maybe I don't see the difference between the two. Care to explain?
Both are misconceptions that anything produced by WotC would be a problem for any DM. But a lot of fans who liked the option of the Chosen of Mystra in the campaigns are now told to 'accept it' by people that have complained that there PCs could never escape the shadow of NPCs that should have had minimal effects on their campaigns.
Now, we have Shar as the big baddie to fight against. Some of us old-timers liked the old Shar that kept in the background and worked in secrecy. A lot of the newcomers now have an NPC/Deity that they enjoy putting in their campaign as the common foe. In three years, come back to the board and see if there's a lot of people honestly complaining about Shar and other NPCs (Drizzt will still be around, I have a hunch Raidon Kane will be an uber-NPC, along with Cale's son) and see if people will be complaining about them as much as the Chosen.
I think they will. ;)
In three years, come back to the board and see if there's a lot of people honestly complaining about Shar and other NPCs (Drizzt will still be around, I have a hunch Raidon Kane will be an uber-NPC, along with Cale's son) and see if people will be complaining about them as much as the Chosen.
I think they will. ;)
I too have the feeling history is going to repeat itself.
The group I am DMing is adventuring in Undermountain. They have met exactly two Chosen of Mystra. They went in to Laeral Silverhand Arunsun's shop in Skullport, and have no idea that she is a Chosen or of her identity for that matter and they fled to the Promenade where they met Qilue Valedorn who allowed them to resupply and get healed; which could happen at any temple that the PC's might flee to. Neither of the Chosen that they met accomponied them through Undermountain, they have other responsibilities.
While my good aligned party was in Undermountain the evil aligned Halaster Blackcloak did not just kill them for fun. He has way better things to do than worry about 4 good aligned adventures running around on the top three levels of his dungeon.
There are plenty of powerful evil NPC's running around the Realms and it would seem that if I were running an evil party and wanted to get rid of the Chosen I would enlist the help of some of there equally powerful or more powerful nemesis. The Seven SIsters are not all powerful gods, just as Manshoon (ironically also a Chosen of Mystara), Szass Tam, Fzoul (Chosen of Bane), Larloch, the Twisted Rune, the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhents, Shar (who I think was way more powerful in the shadows), most of the Drow, the church of Tiamat, the Red Wizards (which are not limited to Thay) ect... are not all powerful either.