Concept of a Star Wars RPG should die in a fire
Although the article is about the Star Wars setting, it can definitely apply to any setting with uber-fans.
Anyhow, the guy's right on-target, with any setting. I've never played with one of those 'Star Wars types', but know of them. Being a ST fan myself, I'm familiar with the 'Uber-Fan' phenomena (did you know Klingon is a real language spoken by tens of thousands?!)
'Uber-fandom' ruins most settings for me. I've been lucky enough to avoid them in FR, but I did meet a rabid-fanboi Dragonlance DM who turned me off to DL so much that I still vomit a little every time I think of the setting
The trick is to not like your 'enthusiasm' ruin it for everyone else. The setting you play in is NOT the official one, and if folks could just learn that, we would never have gotten the ill-conceived 4eFR.
Good thread - Thanks for posting that link.
did you know Klingon was real language spoken by tens of thousands?!
As if it were in the past tense... ;)
I don't know which has the higher population, people that can speak Klingon or people that claim The Force as their official religious faith.
As a side note, I'm not knocking those that fall into either category, I'm simply amazed at the number of them!
The irony is that at the same time, I like how Drizzt is used in the setting. He doesn't screw things up. He could drop dead and the world would go on, never to take notice. You couldn't really say the same about some other popular novel characters. It is almost as if Drizzt doesn't even exist in the world, and at best he is nothing more than colorful backdrop, easily lost in the throngs and crowds.
I wish more novel characters were like that, but I won't hold my breath.
The changes made to the Realms for 4E had -nothing- to do with those who hated the uberfans or their beloved iconic characters. It had everything to do with the novels. They said so themselves. Authors felt that the setting was too crowded from years of telling stories, and wanted a "clean slate." They got it.
I will say this, though... I find it uglier for someone to derive joy from someone's "fanboy pain" than I do the earnest (though slightly irritating) expression of fanboy love. Just something to think about.
Why? Because everyone dislikes something about everything. Humanity is superb at saying that nothing is without some flaw. As such it is usually far more difficult, in my own experience (and I am only talking here for myself), to whale on geography or even a socio-political structure in a constructed or fictional world than to pick up a character or set of characters and say that they suck for x, y, z reasons.
And that isn't likely to be the view of a single person. Look at the generalisations we encounter on a daily basis " are all " or "All students are lazy" or "All game fiction is rubbish". To break the world up into managable bits we label and generalise. It would seem (to me again) far easier to say, for example "The Chosen are the justice league and overshadow all players" than to take the time and energy to look into the material available on each of them, the material available on all of the other functional elements in the system and then make up your own mind without letting the statements or actions of one or two people affect your decision. I picked out the Chosen here but it could apply to pretty much anything and anybody, fictional or not. Does anyone these days have that amount of time? I know I don't.
Hence we get the perception, and the inherited perception, that these elements are obstacles. Not, as you may notice, dealing with whether they are not, you logically reach a situation where because no single element may ever be evaluated on its merits or the facts alone, perception is pretty much the only thing you can use to make the decision, especially if enough people hold the same one.
It is for that reason that I have begun to understand why WotC made the decisions they did. Personally I disagree with them in the strongest terms and find their effects little short of abhorrent... because they impact on my own enjoyment of the setting in a significant fashion.... but I am not arrogant enough to think that should matter to anyone but me. Sadly.
Even having said that, the decisions were made, were applied and are done and dusted. The characters are dead. So what, real benefit does such a discussion bring us, apart from a quiet nostalgia for when we could look forward to "Next Week's Episode" featuring the characters of whom we had grown fond?
Sorry. Longer than I had thought, first in a while.
When someone feels the need to crush the joy of another gamer who loves something (i.e. the "uberfan"), it's just possible that they are also an "uberfan." It's just one uberfan against another uberfan, because one person loves something in a very different way than "the right way." If you hate the way that an "uberfan" plays in your sandbox, based on their interpretation and expression of fun, then you may also be an uberfan.
I will say this, though... I find it uglier for someone to derive joy from someone's "fanboy pain" than I do the earnest (though slightly irritating) expression of fanboy love. Just something to think about.
No, it really has nothing to do with enjoying it in a different way. There is a certain amount of psychosis involved with uberfandom.
If someone wants to slit their wrists because I piked Drizzt's head outside of Mithril Hall then they obviously have deeper issues. It either means I did them a favor for ridding them of some unhealthy obsession, or did the world a favor by disallowing the genes of such a person to spread. Either way, it's a favor to somebody.
Ugly or not, at least I'm honest. ;)
I'm drawn back to when RAS killed off Chewbacca in some Star Wars novel. He received a constant stream of death threats for what he had done (and probably still receives death threats to this day!) The same would happen if he killed Drizzt, and it's more likely some crazed uberfan might actually try something.
I don't feel sorry for such people at all. They are obviously a minority of a minority, and there is one thing to like a character, and quite another to become obsessed with it. In my mind, you are only a uberfan when it becomes an obsession.
Actually, problems with the Chosen or Drizzt are something I've heard about only as happening somewhere. I have not had any such problems in games I've been in, and I haven't met someone who, in person, told me it happened in their games. I think it wasn't nearly as widespread as it was alleged to be - it's just that the people who were unhappy were a lot more vocal than the people who were ok with it.
I agree.
The title of the article mentioned in the OP is unfortunate--it seems to imply that playing a SW RPG is itself a bad idea.
No, it really has nothing to do with enjoying it in a different way. There is a certain amount of psychosis involved with uberfandom.
If someone wants to slit their wrists because I piked Drizzt's head outside of Mithril Hall then they obviously have deeper issues. It either means I did them a favor for ridding them of some unhealthy obsession, or did the world a favor by disallowing the genes of such a person to spread. Either way, it's a favor to somebody.
Ugly or not, at least I'm honest. ;)
I'm drawn back to when RAS killed off Chewbacca in some Star Wars novel. He received a constant stream of death threats for what he had done (and probably still receives death threats to this day!) The same would happen if he killed Drizzt, and it's more likely some crazed uberfan might actually try something.
I don't feel sorry for such people at all. They are obviously a minority of a minority, and there is one thing to like a character, and quite another to become obsessed with it. In my mind, you are only a uberfan when it becomes an obsession.
What's especially disturbing is that you seem to think you're doing anyone a favor with this type of behavior. If someone is that obsessed, they need understanding and perhaps counseling or medication, not someone who will intentionally push their buttons, take pleasure in it, and openly gloat about it later.
Though, frankly, medication cannot end an obsession, and counseling only works if you want it too.
Taking away the object of their obsession is simply cutting to the heart of the matter and saving them money. (And from possibly being locked in a mental institution.) ;)
As for your advice on how to deal with mental illness, Meldread: Stop. You obviously know nothing about true mental illness and have based all your 'ideas' on the subject information that is both wrong and dangerous to believe. Let's drop the subject before this thread gets derailed any further and is closed.
And it doesn't matter if RAS chose to kill Chewbacca or not, anyone who threatened (or threatens) to kill him over it is obviously sick in the head. And since we're talking about uber fans it seems very appropriate to make the distinction between casual fans, hardcore fans and uber fans. A uber fan is always someone who goes over the line.
And since we're talking about uber fans it seems very appropriate to make the distinction between casual fans, hardcore fans and uber fans.
Those aren't exactly standard terms with standard definitions...
I never claimed to be a doctor, Therise is the one writing prescriptions and suggesting counseling. I'm simply the one calling up familiar examples (the RAS and Chewbacca situation) and calling a spade a spade.
And it doesn't matter if RAS chose to kill Chewbacca or not, anyone who threatened (or threatens) to kill him over it is obviously sick in the head. And since we're talking about uber fans it seems very appropriate to make the distinction between casual fans, hardcore fans and uber fans. A uber fan is always someone who goes over the line.
An uberfan might more appropriately be called a stalker. Just because they do it over the internet, does not change the criminal behavior, nor does it lessen it. So if you really want to call a spade a spade...
As to the OP's topic: An article like that definitely applies to certain Realms fans as well as non-Realms D&D players (read: Rules Lawyers).
I think it's important to distinguish between the people who didn't care for the Chosen and those that did. If anything, uber-fans certainly aren't the people who would've complained about the Chosen. Uber-fans seem to me like the people who would defend the Chosen at all costs and proclaim they were and always have been a non-issue.
On the surface a uber fan might be somewhat like a hardcore fan. They are similar. Yet, the uber fan can take it a step further, to the point of complete obsession. They become appalled when they encounter someone who doesn't share the interest, or another fan who does not know as much as them. They denounce such fans who don't share their obsessive enthusiasm, not viewing them as true fans at all.
That's the difference between the three. It is not so much different for gaming or anything else. Someone compared a uber fan to something like a stalker - it is very much like a stalker. They're obsessed with it. If something happened to it, they'd lash out.
Or those who have all the crap, are obsessive about their object of worship, and generally completely wrong about most of the factoids and trivia because they're idiots, who think they know what they're talking about when they're actually clueless...
Or maybe those types who find something their friends like, buy all the crap because they can, and then get off on rubbing it in their so-called friends faces that they don't have all this stuff, when really, they could care less about whatever their focus might be beyond having something to be a prick about to fuel those feelings of inadequacy that are salved at the expense of others...
Or any other number of annoying personality types and reasons for being creepy about something... some people are just pricks, and I don't see much reason to be upset about their fixations when its the people who are the problem, not the subject matter.
What it comes down to is trying to assign blame for the "Fall of " on the fans ultimately, and saying in so many words that if they weren't such creepy little nerds, then nothing bad or uncomfortable would have happened and we could all just enjoy things in peace. Bollocks to that I say.
What it comes down to is trying to assign blame for the "Fall of " on the fans ultimately, and saying in so many words that if they weren't such creepy little nerds, then nothing bad or uncomfortable would have happened and we could all just enjoy things in peace. Bollocks to that I say.
On that, I think everyone is in agreement. To once again be blunt, we're all creepy little nerds. Let's not forget where we are: we're on the Forgotten Realm's message boards, where we discuss and debate about a fictional fantasy world. :P
Although, there are certainly people who can leave a bad taste in people's mouth over certain characters, settings, TV Shows, whatever. I tried to use the example of Drizzt earlier in the thread: Drizzt is perhaps one of the least offensive characters in all of the setting. However, he has the hugest following by far with Elminster probably a distant second. Yet, how many people's perception of Drizzt has been colored by his most dedicated fans? How many times have we heard here and in other places, the lament over Drizzt clones?
Certainly, those individuals are harmless. Yet, at the end of the day when they are numerous and stories pop up about them from time to time... how can the perceptions people have of Drizzt not be colored by it?
The same is true for the setting as a whole as well as other characters.
Then you have individuals who take things to an extreme.
When it comes down to it, no hobby does well when the uber fans get the attention. This is how D&D became a nerds game and how stereotypes form around hobbies, settings and the like.
Amazing how belligerent a thread can turn in such a short space...
Apparently I should've never suggested a little tolerance and compassion. My bad.
...On that, I think everyone is in agreement. To once again be blunt, we're all creepy little nerds....
Uhm, no. Please speak only for yourself on that one. I wouldn't even say "most" or "many" are "creepy little nerds" around here. Most, in fact, are absolutely great people.
It's often a good idea to walk away for a few minutes before replying to something.
This is to everyone, not anyone in particular.
Uhm, no. Please speak only for yourself on that one. I wouldn't even say "most" or "many" are "creepy little nerds" around here. Most, in fact, are absolutely great people.
You say it as if being a creepy little nerd is something bad. ;)
I've known many a great person who was a nerd, and creepy is a matter of perspective. I'm sure more than a handful of people would view you as creepy for wanting to play D&D, or discuss a fantasy world on a message board. They might even think you a bit loony.
Though geek is probably a more apt word than nerd. In either case, it's all a matter of perspective.
I wouldn't call everyone around here absolutely great people, I don't know everyone well enough on a personal level to make that judgment. Though from their posts here on the forum I suppose they are decent enough.
It's nice to know that you think I'm absolutely great though, Therise. ;)
As to this being the Realms boards... yes it is, very astute observation. So you're saying we're all at least geeky nerds just because we have an interest in D&D and the Forgotten Realms setting in particular? Is there something wrong with being a geeky nerd? Or does that require a judgement call from people I could give a toss about? ;)
Oh, I'm definitely not a creepy little nerd. At 6', you can hardly call me little. :P
As to this being the Realms boards... yes it is, very astute observation. So you're saying we're all at least geeky nerds just because we have an interest in D&D and the Forgotten Realms setting in particular? Is there something wrong with being a geeky nerd? Or does that require a judgement call from people I could give a toss about? ;)
If I had to make a guess, I'd say that the majority of society would view us at the very least geeky, if not a little weird. :P
It's the majority of folk who determine what "normal" is, after all, but who wants to hang out with them? ;)
It's nice to know that you think I'm absolutely great though, Therise. ;)
You shouldn't jump to that conclusion.
You shouldn't jump to that conclusion.
If only you could see me gasping and clutching my chest. You wound me, Therise! Why must you put daggers in my heart!
Actually, problems with the Chosen or Drizzt are something I've heard about only as happening somewhere. I have not had any such problems in games I've been in, and I haven't met someone who, in person, told me it happened in their games. I think it wasn't nearly as widespread as it was alleged to be - it's just that the people who were unhappy were a lot more vocal than the people who were ok with it.
Completely agree. I've never met anyone who, in person, has told me that either the Chosen or Drizzt were problems in their games. In my experience, these are rare outliers, and never as bad as people complain about on the internet. Much ado about nothing, and drama generally tends to follow those who rail against it.
Actually, the feeling I got from the article isn't that the uber-fan is the one complaining about the setting, but it's the fact that they make it difficult for others to play in the setting with them. Their knowledge of the setting's canon (and non-canon) facts means they tend to always 'call-out' when someone does something different that expected. Thus dragging the game down. Ultimately the other player's develop a distaste for the setting, which leads to things we've seen around here, where they complain about the things in the setting that actually set it apart from other settings.
Or any other number of annoying personality types and reasons for being creepy about something... some people are just pricks, and I don't see much reason to be upset about their fixations when its the people who are the problem, not the subject matter.
Yeah, that's pretty much my own opinion on the matter. If someone's a jerk, blame the person, not the hobby, because there are probably jerks of all types in every hobby (not just "fandoms" either--any hobby you can think of).
On that, I think everyone is in agreement. To once again be blunt, we're all creepy little nerds.
I agree with Therise--please speak only for yourself here. I don't consider myself a "creepy little nerd", and I do have other interests besides the FR. In your own words...
...I don't know everyone well enough on a personal level to make that judgment.
If I had to make a guess, I'd say that the majority of society would view us at the very least geeky, if not a little weird. :P
It's the majority of folk who determine what "normal" is, after all, but who wants to hang out with them? ;)
Actually, as far as I know, we all form our own individual basis of what normal constitutes, at least in a psychological sense. Of course there's also those crisis of confidence and not-fitting-in that come with pubescence and early adolescence, but I blame that more on hormonal fluctuations than an actual psychological problem, as its the period when self-definition begins taking place.
As to the majority's opinions... well, I don't have a high opinion of what supposedly constitutes normal in this country. Personally, I tend to think its a little freakish though... what's the point of sapience after all if you're just going to turn around and act like a herd critter?
Interesting how everything can really turn on a dime...
Actually, the feeling I got from the article isn't that the uber-fan is the one complaining about the setting, but it's the fact that they make it difficult for others to play in the setting with them. Their knowledge of the setting's canon (and non-canon) facts means they tend to always 'call-out' when someone does something different that expected. Thus dragging the game down. Ultimately the other player's develop a distaste for the setting, which leads to things we've seen around here, where they complain about the things in the setting that actually set it apart from other settings.
And the points thus far would be to avoid people like that in any hobby or area of interest... its not unique to Star Wars, or the Realms for that matter, and they're going to ruin opinions of things no matter where they are. Were we to take the author's advice, we would effectively shut down all entertainment, for fear that someone might get weird on us about it... screw that. Its an opinion ultimately based in fear and hate, and obviously of the dark side... and we all should know that the Sith aren't to be trusted. ;)
Though in a lot of respects, it is based in fear, despite the tongue being firmly in cheek there. Fear that these little weirdos are going to ruin something if you come into contact with them, etcetera and so forth... not the best attitudes to espouse when it comes down to it.
Actually, the feeling I got from the article isn't that the uber-fan is the one complaining about the setting, but it's the fact that they make it difficult for others to play in the setting with them. Their knowledge of the setting's canon (and non-canon) facts means they tend to always 'call-out' when someone does something different that expected. Thus dragging the game down.
I think this description is a close parallel to your atypical rules lawyer.
In my two decades of gaming with various groups I've always run into at least one person per group who was a rules lawyer. Rules lawyers are IMO just a natural outgrowth of the game.
The most recent (and longest lasting) group of people I game with have one among their number who fit the RL bill to a tee. Fortunately my (then new) friends knew how -as a group- to keep this guy in check. If he got on too heavy at the gaming table they'd all shut him down.
That's something I've never seen before. Usually it's whoever is the DM vs. the one player in a battle of wills.
Switching from rules to Realms canon: I tend to use a pejorative term for someone who lords canon over other people the same way rules lawyers behave (I call them canon-nazis or lore-nazis).
In my experience rules lawyers are almost always the type of people who become, umm...(searching for a better turn of phrase)....lore-jerks. The one tends to become the other, whether it's a Realms fan, Dragonlance Fan or what have you.
I don't believe it fits to say lore-jerks are uber-fans. I think there's a larger population of players who like to know things for the sake of being able to lord their knowledge (and impose their will) over others than there are people who are so slavishly devoted to the game that they can't stand the thought of someone not running a Star Wars or Realms game the "right" way.
The distinction might seem slight (or even nonexistent) to some, but I think it's sufficient to note two sub-categories of problem player.
I'm drawn back to when RAS killed off Chewbacca in some Star Wars novel. He received a constant stream of death threats for what he had done (and probably still receives death threats to this day!) The same would happen if he killed Drizzt, and it's more likely some crazed uberfan might actually try something.
You know... this struck a cord with me - I was just thinking the other day how RAS probably hates Drizzt far more then most of us do.
He's like a friggin' albatross hangin' from the guy's neck!
In some sort of weird way, I think he's not even trying with Drizzt any more, because he hopes he'll lose popularity, and RAS can then go onto writing other stories.
In my experience rules lawyers are almost always the type of people who become, umm...(searching for a better turn of phrase)....lore-jerks. The one tends to become the other, whether it's a Realms fan, Dragonlance Fan or what have you.
I don't believe it fits to say lore-jerks are uber-fans. I think there's a larger population of players who like to know things for the sake of being able to lord their knowledge (and impose their will) over others than there are people who are so slavishly devoted to the game that they can't stand the thought of someone not running a Star Wars or Realms game the "right" way.
The distinction might seem slight (or even nonexistent) to some, but I think it's sufficient to note two sub-categories of problem player.
Good Point.
Just about all of us here are 'Realms fans' - maybe even 'Uber-Fans'... but only a few people here agonize over non-canon material.
But I do see a lot of that "posting something that has already been said, just because you want to make sure everyone knows that you know it", which is the same personality as the know-it-all you describe.
I hate that....
Probably guilty of it a little too... :embarrass
That being said, I can also say that not all rules-lawyers WILL turn into Canonites. Some of us have that filter that we listen too. Of course, no one's is 100%. You can ask my friends how sometimes I'd bring up a 'point of law' during the game that truly does not benefit myself or the group and, at times, has actually hurt or hindered us. For me, it's more about getting everyone to understand how the rules works than how to find loopholes.
Which can be taken by any Controller-type. :P
You can ask my friends how sometimes I'd bring up a 'point of law' during the game that truly does not benefit myself or the group and, at times, has actually hurt or hindered us. For me, it's more about getting everyone to understand how the rules works than how to find loopholes.
You bring up a good point.
I've got two guys in my Monday game who will without any prodding or attitude point out the relevant rules to the other players or me, even if it hinders their characters or the other party members.
I look at that as "using the power for good instead of evil." These are two guys that -if they had poorer personal character or were otherwise more selfish- would have turned into rules lawyers/canonistas (my new word for it).
It's interesting in a way because I'm totally willing to let a rule slide if it keeps play fun and flowing, but these two guys (and the rest of the party, to be honest) are willing to let the bad come with the good, just so the rules are followed/applied evenly.
That's kind of a hidden bonus, IMO.
:D
You know... this struck a cord with me - I was just thinking the other day how RAS probably hates Drizzt far more then most of us do.
He's like a friggin' albatross hangin' from the guy's neck!
In some sort of weird way, I think he's not even trying with Drizzt any more, because he hopes he'll lose popularity, and RAS can then go onto writing other stories.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. He didn't want to write anything past The Icewind Dale Trilogy initially, but it's gone on a lot longer than that. And I think the writing quality has dropped off in the last few books.
I haven't read the two sequels yet, but I really liked Echoes of the Fourth Magic, and I hope he will go back to writing stories like that.
You know... this struck a cord with me - I was just thinking the other day how RAS probably hates Drizzt far more then most of us do.
He's like a friggin' albatross hangin' from the guy's neck!
In some sort of weird way, I think he's not even trying with Drizzt any more, because he hopes he'll lose popularity, and RAS can then go onto writing other stories.
I largely agree. I also get the feeling that RAS probably hates Drizzt far more than anyone else. However, I think he's determined to milk that emo drow for every penny he can before he wrings his neck. :P
I kinda view it like someone who hates their job, but continues to do it for years and years until retirement.
He also knows if he were to kill Drizzt he is facing the Chewbacca situation x10.
He wants to kill Drizzt, but the fans won't let him (which means WotC won't let him - THEY own Drizzt, NOT Salvatore).
He probably loves the fact that he gets to write about Artemis for a change, but the only problem is, Jarlaxle is now becoming MORE popular then Artemis, which means he's back to writing about a Drow all over a again (who's a fop instead of a winey little b*&%$!)
Maybe WotC should have someone new write Drizzt stories - RAS is getting stale - he needs to write other things before he goes completely downhill.
He wants to kill Drizzt, but the fans won't let him (which means WotC won't let him - THEY own Drizzt, NOT Salvatore).
How do we know?
I thought he was on record saying he likes Drizzt and will write about him as long as he does like him. Now, I'll be the first to agree that the Drizzt story arc has grown stale, but that doesn't mean the author himself thinks so, or wants to kill Drizzt, etc. In short, we shouldn't pretend to be mind readers.
I don't know that he doesn't like Drizzt, but I'm pretty sure if he was able to make as much money writing for his own setting, he wouldn't have come crawling back to WotC.
Nobody works for someone else unless they have to; ergo, I feel Drizzt has become 'just a job' for him... and it shows in his writing.
However, you are right and thats only my opinion.