The thread title says it all. This is just an interesting debate where we toss ideas back and forth and discuss them.
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Here is what I would change and why.
First, I would change how the Orcs were introduced into the setting. They seem to have appeared in two separate waves, the first wave they may have evolved naturally or been brought to Toril via magic. The second wave was through the Orcgate wars.
For me it just doesn't make Orc's all that interesting, lore wise. So here is how I would change them in their introduction. I'd have the Elves – most likely the Dark Elves (pre-Drow) – create them from human stock. The Orcs would have formally been humans who they altered to serve as front-line grunts and easy to control labor. This would explain many of the traits the Orcs exhibit: their war-like nature, their lower intelligence compared to humans, and their greater strength and endurance. All of those things would have made them ideal for the roles they were going to fill.
Down side? They were too chaotic to control and didn't really work well together. They were too prone to violence. And so over time they began to just sort-of trickle away, some fled, others were just abandoned due to lack of usefulness.
Now, here is the twist. Orc's are only male. They'd lack the ability to produce female orcs. This would mean in order to breed they'd have to raid human settlements to steal their females. Since they were once human, they'd be genetically compatible with humans. They'd of course **** and impregnate the females, enslaving or killing the males, and all sorts of other nasty things. Unfortunately, the ability for a human female to carry an Orcish child to full term would be difficult. Full-term for an Orcish child is six months instead of the usual nine. The children themselves are usually hearty and survive well once born, but the females typically die shortly after giving birth.
Culturally speaking, when it comes to breeding, an Orc tribe would determine breeding rights based upon a number of criteria. First, the Warlord (Chief of the Tribe) gets to pick whatever females he wants first. The Warlord is determined by who is the most combat-able, and must defeat all challengers to the title. Second, those who performed the best in the raid (based upon amount of loot gathered, slaves captured, etc.) get to pick a female next. Third, the strongest warriors of the tribe get the next picks until there are none left. They may fight over them if they desire in non-lethal combat (well usually non-lethal).
Slaves would be treated like animals, generally dying of miss treatment or starvation. Children would struggle into adulthood having to fight for everything they wanted. The weak would be weeded out through this process.
This would create a self-fulfilling culture and cycle. The Orcs require human females to breed, so they raid human settlements. An entire Orcs life is a struggle, forcing him to fight even for the smallest scrap of food, thus ensuring he never has a chance to learn of any other 'way' outside of his culture... and even if he did, he'd be unsuited to embrace it due to his cultural mindset.
This makes in my mind Orcs more interesting as monstrous villains. After all, again and again, it is brought up here that it is more effective to try and dominate through trade than through warfare... and even despite Orc's low intelligence you'd think that some of them would surely learn this and set aside their cultural ways.
As for deities, I'd really like to see the Orcs embrace a deity like Garagos, known as the Reaver, the god of war, skill-at-arms, destruction, and plunder.
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So if you were going to recon the Orcs, what would you change and why?
Hmmmm ? I dont thing i would change anything. I mean orcs are just orcs. hmmm well ok actually i would change that that. I mean theyre basically the arch ememies of the elves, and you got your high elves, and your wood elves, and your sea elves, etc., etc. so there should be some High orcs, wood orcs, mountain orcs,etc., etc., or what have you. Thatd be my only change.
I'd retcon their bloodlust, by making them more savage, by making their str go up +5 points instead of the normal rage, assuming it still does that in 4e.
and grant them the ability to drink blood as booze.
and grant them the ability to drink blood as booze.
Funny, this immediately springs to mind...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE1xsjZYoy0
The vocals aren't what the Orcs typically appreciate (i.e. cookie monster growls), but it works.
As for retcons, I haven't given it much thought. Let me think on it.
and grant them the ability to drink blood as booze.
Yes! they definalty need that ability! I want that ability!
Funny, this immediately springs to mind...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE1xsjZYoy0
The vocals aren't what the Orcs typically appreciate (i.e. cookie monster growls), but it works.
As for retcons, I haven't given it much thought. Let me think on it.
Yes!!!
Hmmmm ? I dont thing i would change anything. I mean orcs are just orcs. hmmm well ok actually i would change that that. I mean theyre basically the arch ememies of the elves, and you got your high elves, and your wood elves, and your sea elves, etc., etc. so there should be some High orcs, wood orcs, mountain orcs,etc., etc., or what have you. Thatd be my only change.
There are different types of Orcs. :P
First, you have the Mountain Orcs which are found in the North. These are the "spill out of the mountains to conquer and enslave" variety. They were on Faerûn first.
Second, you have the Gray Orcs which while just as savage and barbaric as the Mountain Orcs, lack the drive to conquer and enslave. They simply tend to act irrationally, following their emotions and instincts more readily than logic. They are typically found out in the East (Thesk, Rashemen, Vassa, Damara, Mulhorand, etc.) They have also begun to spread toward the Moonsea.
The Grey Orcs were the Orcs that were brought to Toril during the Orcgate Wars.
Third, you have the Deep Orcs, also known as Orogs. They are stronger, more intelligent, and better organized than the other types of orcs. And they have to be as they live in the Underdark.
There are also likely other types of Orcs, and I do not include half-orc's here.
All this being said... I think all the different Orc types are stupid. I also think it is stupid to have so many sub-races of Elves. All these sub-races seem to be a weak way of painting an entire race with a stereotype and calling it a culture. Thus, when you want to create a new "culture" you create a new sub-race.
I agree. Lets just have Orc's...and let the Elves be the preversions from them!
Yeah, thats ture there are different types of orcs, but as far as the rules go, they re just orcs. I could see havin some feats or something like the moon elf and sun elf thing, but only for mountain orcs, or gray orcs,etc.
I agree. Lets just have Orc's
Awwww but just orcs are boring. Whats wrong with shadow orcs? ehh?
...and let the Elves be the preversions from them!
...uhm, say what!?
About this:
Now, here is the twist. Orc's are only male. They'd lack the ability to produce female orcs. This would mean in order to breed they'd have to raid human settlements to steal their females.
Well, this iwould change a lot of things because they would not be a self sustaining population so you would have to retcon and remove all previous orc hordes, some of which play considerable importance.
It is also mentioned that this would give a reason for making them compatible with humans but why do they need a reason? Elves are compatible with humans and are a diffrerent type so why would orcs need humanblood to be that way?
Anyway, how about another retcon idea.
The elves and dwarves both developed separately in the ancient lands before the gods that we know walked upon them. (Note: This does not have to be Toril, it could be anywhere...) Being of a longer lifespan, the elves first develped civilization and became the first of the two to develop metallurgy. When the orcs noticed the beautiful elves in the woods that they shared sometimes they stood in awe. Sometimes, the haughty elf lords would attack them for sport. And other times, the orcs desires would succumb to the beauty of the elves and they would snaek and **** the women, often killing them to hide the crime. So, enmity developed and the elves drove the orcs from the forests and into the mountains. In other places the elves drove the orcs from the forests and into the plains.
And so, the elven civilizations grew although they had not yet learned magic. And the orcs grew numerous in the mountains and plains and told frightening stories of the elves who had driven them from the comforts of the forest home. These orcs needed a means to hold themselves together. And so war became the means. Uniting against enemies is a long successful method for gaining control of a populace.
But, sometimes these leaders would have greater ambitions than to rule a single tribe and they would aspire to rule them all. So, they would stir up the ancient tales of the evil elves who had driven them from the comfort of their homes in the woods and united tribes to go on wars against the elves with their flint spears and captured elven weapons.
Then one day a great power took note of the elves and went among them in the form of an elf and took the name of Corellon Larethian. He taught magic to these elves and they worshipped him for it. Thus began to grow the elven civilizations and Corellon Larethian was proud of himself as he was ever prone to be.
However, another power took note of the elves. Corellon had enemies and one enemy in particular he had warred with for millennia and through the planes of existence, He who never Sleeps. Many had their wars been and Corellon had grown weary of te fighting and eluded him for a period of time. But, now he found his enemy whose vanity led to staying in one place too long. He Who Never Sleeps took it upon himself to destroy those beings that his enemy had taken as his own. So, he went forth among the orcs and took the name Gruumsh One Eye. He taught them how to forge weapons with metal and those who would give their souls tohim he gave the secrets of divine magic. He embraced their ideals of using enemies to unite as a horde and he stoked their hatred of the elves. They had been tailor made by the elves before meeting Corellon to help him destroy that which Corellon had grown to love. They brought a garrish smile to the face of He Who Never Sleeps.
And so the great war began. Orcs against their ancient oppressors, the elves. He who never sleeps against his ancient enemy nowknown as Corellon Larethian. This war had already been repeated time and again but now with more followers than ever before this war occurred on an even greater cosmic scale. The elves and orcs fought epic battles with divine and arcane magic. This paled in comparison to the power being thorwn back and forth between Corellon And Gruumsh. Rifts and portals came into existence and flashed out as the fabric of creation shook. Whole villages and armies were swallowed and disappeared. Some were destroyed. Others were whisked throughout the multiverse.
Thus the populations of orcs and elves were scattered throughout the planes and whereveer they ended up together their war continues to this day.
there's also the scro...i believe they were mentioned in FR novels before....was it "Gondrunner?"
You could also link them to the orcs...maybe the orcs are experiments of the scro....
About this:
Now, here is the twist. Orc's are only male. They'd lack the ability to produce female orcs. This would mean in order to breed they'd have to raid human settlements to steal their females.
Well, this iwould change a lot of things because they would not be a self sustaining population so you would have to retcon and remove all previous orc hordes, some of which play considerable importance.
It is also mentioned that this would give a reason for making them compatible with humans but why do they need a reason? Elves are compatible with humans and are a diffrerent type so why would orcs need humanblood to be that way?
It would change a lot of things, yes. The reason I think the route I put forward holds a higher interest (to me at least) is because it creates a clear antagonistic situation. They are almost like parasites. You know the fate of the women they capture.
Of course, the horde issue is a stickler. You could handle that in one of two ways. First, you could change it to make it so that human females don't die so easily when giving birth to orc children. This allows a tribe to capture a lot of Orcs and engage in breeding with the women multiple times – perhaps many times – and that could get them to horde-like levels. Also, nothing prevents them from breeding humans with humans. That could be interesting.
Basically, in that situation they'd have one or two human males breed with the selected human females. Then discard the child if it is male (or enslave it as it grows of age) and keep it if it is female (to breed with her as soon as she becomes of age). That's pretty evil and horrific - suitable for an orc.
Second, you could have them enslave a weaker race, such as goblins. That would allow them to still develop hordes... lots of goblins, with a reasonable size of Orcs leading them. That would also go a long way to reinforce goblins as a cowardly race easily forced into subservience, and the Orcs could be used as a good contrast to them.
I'd retcon their bloodlust, by making them more savage, by making their str go up +5 points instead of the normal rage, assuming it still does that in 4e.
and grant them the ability to drink blood as booze.
I want to go back and touch on the last part of the post made here. I understand the intention behind the suggestion here, although I'd worry that we'd border on turning Orcs into a sort of parody. You know what I mean? "They're so evil they drink blood!" Doesn't really -frighten- me all that much.
My suggestion to improve this would be to do the following:
Give Orcs a shark like mentality. Have their rage build over time. Have it automatically trigger once they see blood, and have it build as more and more blood is spilled. When an Orc enters into a battle rage, it's the literal equivalent of seeing red. Their adrenaline increases. Their attacks grow more devastating, they seem to have the ability to push themselves far beyond mortal endurance in battle.
An orc who enters into a deep battle rage would never flee, and would fight to the death no matter what... even if you stabbed it again and again, it would shrug it off and keep fighting... with a look in its eye that shows a loss of control, with just an overwhelming urge to not only kill whatever they are attacking but to butcher it completely.
Then to add another layer to that, give Orcs blood and bone rituals, where they could use the bone and blood of those they slay in magical – almost divine – type rights. Which, of course, would further empower them.
I think that could add a good layer to the uniqueness of an Orc.
Anyway, how about another retcon idea.
-snip-
I once toyed with the idea of having Gruumsh be the first born son of Corellon, spawned as the blood of Malar and Corellon mixed after a battle. Gruumsh was then exiled and disowned by Corellon due to his twisted appearance, and would later return to battle him after being swayed to join Araushnee in her rebellion.
Of course, all of the Seldarine in that idea were in some way directly or indirectly related to Corellon. Deep Sashelas for example was spawned after Corellon fell in love with a dolphin and mated with it – producing the deity. The first Elves were also spawned by Corellon as he gazed at his complexion within a reflecting pool, mesmerized by his own beauty, and lifting his voice in song his reflection began to step out of the pool and multiply. :P
It was meant as a re-write of the Seldarine mythology... I didn't really go much further than that.
Meldread, you really ought to write your own campaign setting.
I think many would buy it.
there's also the scro...i believe they were mentioned in FR novels before....was it "Gondrunner?"
You could also link them to the orcs...maybe the orcs are experiments of the scro....
Im not familiar with scro, are they like snilbog?
scro
tum.
Hey, I just had to. Although now that I look over Meldread's thoughts, I'm tempted to steal a few.
This is what Markus would add a about the Scro: Scro-Tums!
scro
tum.
Took me awhile. I was sittin here thinking tum? what the hell is tum?
but i get it now!! LOL!
OK i just read up on Scros. Space orcs! ok so theyre nothing like the snilbog. Any one remember them? I think they was in the 1e Feind Folio. Goblins who were reversed in time, so if you hit one, you healed it. Some great stuff in that Feind Folio.
Now re-search the tums, IIRC the Scro's cusins.
Now re-search the tums, IIRC the Scro's cusins.
Dont you think i already did!? i already googled tum when i was still trying to figure it out! Shut Up!!!
the only thing i came up with was calcium carbonate or the Technical University of Munich. But no cousins of the Scro. Was they in the Fiend Folio as well?
Anyone seen Idiocracy? Wasnt that what everyone said instead of dude, or bro?
Whats up scro?
Tums are not their cusins, they are their Warchiefs!
Snilbog=Goblins:rollseyes:
-Good point. Four letters is much easier. Scro is also somewhat cool sounding, while Snlibog sounds funny.
You do know that they refer to their warchiefs as Tums? And there's nothing worse then having to answer to your Scro Tum. :P You know, you guys have been reading way to much biased human and demi-human history. Its ALL propaganda! Try reading the Drow, Duerger, or Orc history books... Okay... maybe the Orcs don't really have a whole book...more of a history pamphlet..
must of been someone's adult humor that got by the censors,
So thats what a tum is!!!!
now it all makes perfect sense!
No it doesnt
I know we're retconning, but where the hell does this retarded idea everyone seems to have that Corellon is some arrogant, self-absorbed ass come from?
It's the one thing the drives me crazy in Evermeet, for that matter, when that's mentioned, since it's pretty much the only place.
Most of what's been written about Corellon, particularly in the 2e books where they actually bothered giving gods decent writeups, emphasizes his *lack* of pride and arrogance and his humility and willingness to learn from mortals and from other cultures.
So, no, really, where the hell does this crap come from and why is everyone so obsessed with it.
the Corellon from Greyhawk, or the points of light one.
be interested in knowing that too..
maybe something on how those arrogant bastard sun elves act has something to do with it.
The original traditional one from 1e's Deities and Demigods. The 4e one is someone else entirely.
The one that Greyhawk, FR, Planescape et al share. (World Tree cosmology is stupid and can burn, so can the World Axis. Great Wheel or GTFO)
The Fruits don't fall far from the tree...
The concepts are interesting, Meldread, but I gotta say a race based solely on **** isn't something I'd want to see in any game I played.
I never involved orcs much in the campaigns, just a few changes. Their origins, portals to Orcspace, aren't that good/complete. I'm fine with the Tolkienesque origin, as an abominations of fey. They are all demon-blooded, in my cosmology Hawoek is a plane of conflict, opposition, and obliteration that brutally invades all other realities through planar rifts (imagine Abyss, Blood Rift, Acheron, and Golarion's Abaddon merged together), its invasions into Faerie (Elemental Wood, the World Tree) manifest as Metal, which is abhorrent to fey. Orc culture revolves around blood, bone and iron, sacrificial and demon-pact shamanism. They are unatalented for magic due to their anti-fey nature except for mentioned. Originally bred for war they are able to live for sustained periods on little more than grubs and insects.
In my homebrew the serpentine races are dominated by the qualities of nous (mind, reason), humans are more on the thymos side and fey of eros (basic urges), but orcs are twisted, they deeply hate their fey nature and are against it. They are extremely carnal, that explains their numbers, but only for their own race, humans and others aren't that attractive. Imo that would be more real than mass rapists. Except for the virginal blood, its mystical properties intensify their ferociousness. They do find sexual gratification in acts of violence, charging into battles with hard-ons and spears. There are no big physical differences between sexes, a great number of orcs in various stages of pregnancy were observed in battle. Upon the death of the mother, more developed of the unborn undergo a rapid bloody transformation into a ''special'' one. Less developed ones are grafted by fleshwarping or consumed in cannibalistic rituals.
Their base dwellings not caves, but daemoncysts, planar ripples of Hawoek, like cancer cells of the planet (Chauntea), particularly numerous in the Bloodstone lands.
I don't use nonhuman gods, most orcs (their shamans for the most part) serve archdaemons (particularly War/Szuriel, and Balachon, archdaemon dedicated to the elimination of pantheons, to weaken the access to the Prime reality, even absorbed the portfolios of destruction and slaughter).
Except for Targush the Reaver (like Garagos, but portfolios of anger, vengeance, aggression, wrath, violence, bloodletting, fight, brawling, strength, conflict) who's a human god (aka Slayer of Targus) and an unique proto-marilith, first soul that has undergone a fiendish transformation, but due to its spiteful nature kept the ties to the previous life.
And a cursed fey power, Carntul (dualistic entity, mixture of Herne, Erastil and Malar, portfolios of wilds, natural selection, speed, scent, predators, hunt, archery, traps, talking beasts, scent, instinct, depending on the phases of the cosmic moon it turns evil, adds portfolios of nightmares, rage, bloodlust, lycanthropy, savageness, and cannibalism) in its darker aspect.
Cython the Dark Prince, originally immortal human, returned as a twisted being from an alien, Lovecraftian imprisonment. His portfolios are pain, torment, agony, punishment, harm, mutilation, cruelty, deformity, defilement, sacrilege, taboos, perversion. Doesn't care for orcs at all.
Also there is a force of the earliest ages known as Khal, not particularly self-aware, contained within a titanic armor crackling with energies, that form is worshipped as Atalox the Charger (similar to Talos, but with portfolios of unbalance, mayhem, excess, fury, catastrophes, storms, surprise, noise, entropy).
Vogru, the god-khan, his incarnations are human immortal barbarians, occasionally tough following more violent patterns, he possesses an orc ''vessel''. Portfolios of nomads, plains, summoning, hordes, plunder. Tribes making pacts with him can run as fast as horses.
Maghara the Blood Mother, a spirit-collective, remnant of the earliest human cultures, adopted by some orcs (darker aspects of survival, necessity, needs, hunger, food, warmth, caves, ritual, sacrifice, oaths, sisterhood, birth, blood) after being disowned by the fey Earthmother.
I'd retcon their bloodlust, by making them more savage, by making their str go up +5 points instead of the normal rage, assuming it still does that in 4e
Abilities don't increase stat scores and similar in 4E, instead they simply add flat bonuses to whatever they modify. It makes life a lot less messy than in previous editions.