Athamault, the Iron Bastion. This half submerged fortress built by demon worshipping illythiiri lies beneath the roots of the Duskwood in the Shaar, east of the Border Kingdoms.
It's a dark elven fortress where the Illythiiri experimented on vile weapon enchanting, magic and golemcraft under Lolth's blessing. I imagine it having deep chasms with steel bridges covering the walls like a spidersweb. And spidersilk coccoons harboring terrible nimblewraith constructs, demonic drow servitors and slimy pools of sentient spellcasters.
I believe there is one other - if I remember I'll post again (or someone else can provide it).
And, folks, it is ILYTHIIR* and ILYTHIIRI. I know that spelling illithids looks like it, but try to be precise. Much like ONE DROW and FORTY DROW, not drows. ;)
*That capitalization was only an eyeraiser, it is of course Ilythiir and the Ilythiiri.
There's also the Citadel of Slime located somewhere in the Shar. According to LEoF there are several sites just like that hidden away (strange, early temples to the Drow Pantheon).
Kraanfhaor's door is Miyeritari, which makes it dark-Elven, although it still up to debate weather the Miyeritar were their own group or just a sub-group of the Ilythiir.
I think that last one was used in some novel....
Well, considering how many 11,000+ year-old cities we have lying around in the RW, I would say you are probably right. Even magic breaks down over time....
-In the real world, we don't have magic, though. I was wondering what the oldest city in the world was...Apparently, Damascus is, with Human settlements in the city's boundaries going back as far as 10,000 to 8,000 BC. Most of the other oldest cities are in the Middle East as well. That surprised me...I figured the oldest cities would have been in Southeast Asia and/or India.
There's also the Citadel of Slime located somewhere in the Shar. According to LEoF there are several sites just like that hidden away (strange, early temples to the Drow Pantheon).
-It is the policy of Vhaeraun and his church to hide their temples as well. Most have "decoy" temples/shrines that hide the real ones.
I think that last one was used in some novel....
-Yes, it was in Storm of the Dead. Very poorly, I might add.
When Steven Schend was writing Blackstaff Tower, Kraanfhaor's Door was being discussed over at CK, and he made mention of the fact that it would be 'making an appearance' in his story. Something to the effect that we would finally find-out "what was behind the door", or some-such.
I pointed out to him that it was used recently in another novel, but I don't recall if he responded or not.
I do note that after reading the novel, there was NO MENTION of it, which leads me to believe that he changed his mind (possibly becaue of my post), or that it was lost in editting.
When Steven Schend was writing Blackstaff Tower, Kraanfhaor's Door was being discussed over at CK, and he made mention of the fact that it would be 'making an appearance' in his story. Something to the effect that we would finally find-out "what was behind the door", or some-such.
-Storm of the Dead reveals the insides to contain, at the very least, a massive storehouse of Kiira and possibly Selu'Kiira. I got the Area 51 vibe from indiana Jones.
). What I am not sure about is, if there was something said about where this place was. But it must have been near the central domain of the former Sethomiir-clan, because the place where Geirildin summoned Wendonai was nearby.-Storm of the Dead reveals the insides to contain, at the very least, a massive storehouse of Kiira and possibly Selu'Kiira. I got the Area 51 vibe from indiana Jones.
Which is probably why he was forced to re-think whatever idea he had for the place. There's no 'continuity guru' for FR anymore - can you imagine the major gaf that would have been, to have two completely diffrent things behind the same door in two differnt novels?
That would be like having two diffeent outcomes for the Tree of Life.
Its sad though: Think about it - its in the middle of returned-Miyeritar now... he should have mentioned it.
Which is probably why he was forced to re-think whatever idea he had for the place. There's no 'continuity guru' for FR anymore - can you imagine the major gaf that would have been, to have two completely diffrent things behind the same door in two differnt novels?
-It'd be somewhat easily explainable: The "door" opens to different areas, depending on who opens it, and why. That said, however, I agree.
Was the sundering which created Evermeet, the isle, related to the great magic that created the drow?
My memory makes me think that they were created at the same time but that the Evermeet creation worked backward through time and also destroyed Ilythiir...
I don't have it right now here, so I can't look for it. But there was a temple and some swampy area in this LP Story too, where the LP came back from her journey to the negative "side of live" and started her carrier as "goddess" (
The swamp temple was referred to in LP III (at the beginning) and it could also be the place where it all ends. The place where Geirildin summoned Wendonai must have been in Ilythiir though, since he was calling for help from Lolth as his kin (!) was under severe pressure by the Aryvandaans. So that bit of the novel actually revealed that the suns were about to conquer large stretches (if not all) of the then known Faerûn and the summoning of evil powers by the Ilythiiri were a desperate attempt not to suffer the same fate as Miyeritar - i.e. extinction.
Was the sundering which created Evermeet, the isle, related to the great magic that created the drow?
My memory makes me think that they were created at the same time but that the Evermeet creation worked backward through time and also destroyed Ilythiir...
-No. The Sundering, -24,000 DR*. The Descent of the Drow, -10,000 DR.
Not like the Drow... they're honorable... they do their killin' one innocent victim at a time.
-Atorrnash was the capital of "old" Ilythiir, not "new" Ilythiir. Keep in mind, the nation had two "eras"- pre-Sundering Ilythiir, which was -27,000 DR +/- to -24,000 DR*, and post-Sundering Ilythiir, which was from -23,999 DR* to -10,000 DR. "New" Ilythiir, we don't know what their capital was.
... and I'd like to add that the first city was (AFAIK) indeed destroyed during the Sundering, which created Evermeet. Not exactly how the suns envisaged it, but they didn't handle Elven High Magic that well a few times in FR history. During these destructive events, Lolth's part-time consort Kar'nalist (sp?) also passed away. As is described in Evermeet - Island of Elves (p. 173f).
(My memory is picturing a description of the ruins of the northern citadel where it occurred being surrounded by avariel remains.
)Were the Avariel somehow connected (at least defending...) to the ritual which began the dragon rage associated with the comet?
(My memory is picturing a description of the ruins of the northern citadel where it occurred being surrounded by avariel remains.
-Yes. The Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy revealed that, when the Dracorage Mythal was being weaved, the Dragons learned of what the Elves were doing, and were planning on stopping it, but various Avariel stood up to their enemies, and fended off the Dragons long enough for the Elves who were casting the ritual to successfully weave the Mythal. No Avariel were involved in the actual casting of the ritual that we know of, however.
"Rage of Dragons" - another Edwardian concept that was supposed to be 'something in the past', or some 'mysterious, possible, future event'.
Nothing like rubbing your face in FR's history over and over again.
Excuse me... I need to wipe some lore off my nose....
-Atorrnash was the capital of "old" Ilythiir, not "new" Ilythiir. Keep in mind, the nation had two "eras"- pre-Sundering Ilythiir, which was -27,000 DR +/- to -24,000 DR*, and post-Sundering Ilythiir, which was from -23,999 DR* to -10,000 DR. "New" Ilythiir, we don't know what their capital was.
After the destruction of Atorrnash, who's to say they even had a capital ...?
-- George Krashos
So, the fact that Dragons are older and wiser then humans goes out the window when they 'Rage'?
"Rage of Dragons" - another Edwardian concept that was supposed to be 'something in the past', or some 'mysterious, possible, future event'.
Nothing like rubbing your face in FR's history over and over again.
Excuse me... I need to wipe some lore off my nose....
Wait a moment. Dragon rages were part of the realms for a long time. They just explained them in the trilogy.
The 3e/4e designers like to take all the past events and bring them into the 'now', destroying the mystique they engendered completely.
I realize the "Rage of Dragons" was a cyclic part of the Realms, but we already had one not too long ago, so they fudged the lore and had one happen sooner, because it was so kewl to do so (and they couldn't possibly come-up with their own ideas, that would be... creative).
Its a good thing WotC still has all those boxes and boxes of 'Ed lore' in storage, so the current guys can keep faking their way through their carreers.
So, the fact that Dragons are older and wiser then humans goes out the window when they 'Rage'?
-Yes, the Year of the Rogue Dragons trilogy as well as the Year of the Rogue Dragon anthologies demonstrate that, when the Rage comes on, age, intelligence, wisdom, etc. are all thrown out the window.
After the destruction of Atorrnash, who's to say they even had a capital ...?
-- George Krashos
-All organized states have capitals. Ilythiir was an organized state, thus is had a capital. As evidenced by Leuthilspar, we know that Elves designate capital cities. We have no large Drow nations, and instead only city-states. As such, we have nothing that states that Drow (who would have "inherited" their behavior from the Dark Elves they formerly were) do not designate capital city status' to cities.
I realize the "Rage of Dragons" was a cyclic part of the Realms, but we already had one not too long ago, so they fudged the lore and had one happen sooner, because it was so kewl to do so (and they couldn't possibly come-up with their own ideas, that would be... creative).
-1,373 DR was the Year of Rogue Dragons. Honestly, it'd be hard NOT to have a Rage of the Dragons. I'm sure, if they didn't, many people would be disappointed.
-All organized states have capitals. Ilythiir was an organized state, thus is had a capital.
No, thus you assume it had a capital. This kind of imprecise conjecture makes your project "Elves of Faerûn" (unless I am mistaken) too vague and unofficial for my liking.
As evidenced by Leuthilspar, we know that Elves designate capital cities. We have no large Drow nations, and instead only city-states. As such, we have nothing that states that Drow (who would have "inherited" their behavior from the Dark Elves they formerly were) do not designate capital city status' to cities.
Nor do we have the opposite. In a way, this is like the "big bang" universe question. If there was a big bang, what went before it? For there "must" have been something beforehand! But that's just human thinking about beginnings and ends, a conjecture taken from our own lifes. But the point is that looking at it from a different angle could also yield a simple: there need not to be a beginning or an end, nor, in our case, a capital.
No, thus you assume it had a capital. This kind of imprecise conjecture makes your project "Elves of Faerûn" (unless I am mistaken) too vague and unofficial for my liking.
-That's nice, but states on the international level all have designated capitals, however, though, yes. Ilythiir was a state, and thus, had a city that, in the very least, diplomats went to specifically to conduct international relations.
Nor do we have the opposite. In a way, this is like the "big bang" universe question. If there was a big bang, what went before it? For there "must" have been something beforehand! But that's just human thinking about beginnings and ends, a conjecture taken from our own lifes. But the point is that looking at it from a different angle could also yield a simple: there need not to be a beginning or an end, nor, in our case, a capital.
-Being that we don't have something that says that Dark Elves/Drow don't designate capital cities, and the fact that we have precidence that demonstrates that Elves have/do, we have evidence to suggest that they did indeed have a capital city. What it might have been, who knows, but evidence suggests there was one. There is no evidence- other than a lack of metagame information- to suggest that they didn't have a capital city.
I can think of 3-4 easy alternatives to this viewpoint for Ilythiir which in my view would make the realm more interesting, diverse and not a 'cookie cutter' fantasy realm with an obligatory capital city located ... right there (points to the map). That's why I made the comment in the first place.
But if you think they should have a capital, that's just as valid a viewpoint as anyone else's. Just don't assert that other people haven't quite got things right when their creative process doesn't gel with yours.
-- George Krashos
Its kinda humanocentric to think that every type of government possible has been had by humans. If anything, the Elven culture lends itself very well to a de-centralized form of government.
Plus, you have to add in the fact that the entire civilization was on the move once they started heading north, making them more like the Tuigan (who just so happened to have a mobile capital!). In fact, considering their 'guerilla (terrorist) tactics', being decentralized is very beneficial (no stationary targets - High Magic is the fantasy equivalent of Nukes).
Anyway, One Dragon is plenty enough - having the skies full of them from time to time makes me think that humans, demi-humans, and humanoids should have all been wiped off the face of Toril long-ago. Its one of the rare few pieces of lore I never cared for. A single Dragon almost wiped-out Cormyr... how is it thousands don't cause mass-genocides?
Then again, I'm re-reading the Twilight Giants trilogy right now and it makes me wonder why the hell Giants are also so easy to kill - there's anther species that should have never lost control.
With all respect Lord Karsus, you are thinking of Ilythiir in 'real world' terms when you say "states on an international level all have a capital".
I can think of 3-4 easy alternatives to this viewpoint for Ilythiir which in my view would make the realm more interesting, diverse and not a 'cookie cutter' fantasy realm with an obligatory capital city located ... right there (points to the map). That's why I made the comment in the first place.
But if you think they should have a capital, that's just as valid a viewpoint as anyone else's. Just don't assert that other people haven't quite got things right when their creative process doesn't gel with yours.
-- George Krashos
-Fantasy or factual, can you share a nation-state that operated/es on the international level, as we know Ilythiir did, that does/did not have an implied or designated capital? Fantasy aside, that's how international governance and IR work. You can't host ambassadors, and so on if you, or they, don't know where they're going.
-Fantasy or factual, can you share a nation-state that operated/es on the international level, as we know Ilythiir did, that does/did not have an implied or designated capital? Fantasy aside, that's how international governance and IR work. You can't host ambassadors, and so on if you, or they, don't know where they're going.
Methinks the Realms provide such a sample place / "realm" up ther in Nar land. Somewhat akin to the Dakota of the American plains. The Nar dominate vast stretches of land, their "realm", yet only gather once or twice in one place to hold a "meeting of tribes". On every other day, this meeting place is just a minor settlement, if there's anything at all.
Sample II, the ancient Greeks (say 500 B.C.E.) were a bunch of city states, all vying for power. Yet, when the Persian happened by, they got together and dispatched troops to stop the threat. Afterwards, these states quickly went back warring with one another. And at that time, Athens was not yet the all accepted "capital" of Greece, though the Athenians might have argued differently.
Probably these samples don't hold to your scrutiny, but I think you get the idea (at least of my hesitance ;) )
In those ancient times I could see a gathering of several ilythiiri tribes who hold moots to settle annual tribal matters.
The internal strife might have kept the warlike darkelven tribes from cooperating under a single banner during the period just after the dark elven settlement from Faerie. Ka'arnalist seemed to be an noble from a fringe coastal settlement, who didn't much care for the politics of other darkelven tribes more inland of the Shaar continent.
Most N'Tel'Quess visisting Ilythiiri forests would be welcomed by hails of arrows, with no friendly embassy in sight. Diplomacy might not have been the main way to govern (if I put it lightly). These were times when dragon tyrants might have had destructive notions about underlings such as elves forming institutions for diplomacy.
. Then many of the others allied themselves with other demons and tried in the same way to get power or conquer realms in the neighborhood and claim them as theirs.It seems not to be a united nation. Its more a bunch of smaller county states and the like, some of them are strong enough to get influence on the smaller ones, others are slightly independent.If they consisted of more or less independent counties but no kind of ruler atop of all of them, they would not need a city as a capital. Every county would have its own seat of power for the ruling clan and that's it. Maybe they used one of the biggest cities or castle of the most respected (or feared) of the clans as a kind of gathering place, when some of them had to come together. But in most cases only the direct neighbors would get into contact with each other and if they needed to make war in a greater scale where the other clans must participate it would also not be essential to have a capital for all. They could meet at the court of the most respected count/clan.
On a sidenote ... I do not view the Ilythiiri (i.e. those during the age when they waged war on Aryvandaar) as "tribes", i.e. semi-nomadic people (akin to the wild elves) a la the Dakota or the Iroquois. I would rather have them as smaller "realms" of one "nation", probably much like those city states in ancient Greece. Or something inbetween that. Yet, honestly, I haven't spent that much thought on this ... as there is so much drow lore to spend energy on :D
I don't see Ilythiir as either that or that. The Greece is shown in Chessenta. I'd view the dark elven realm as a one realm where noble families fight for power on daily basis, with private armies, and many houses in each city. Therefore the cities wouldn't be too big, due to all the infighting.
I wonder, perhaps the dark elven tribes were so succesful dispite advercity from the dragons because they managed to make use of the plain type areas in between the ancient Shaaran forest instead of the usual elven way of ignoring such landscapes. The strategy of building timberless holmes out in the plains proved effective against the fire and lightning attacks of Shaaran dragons. Enhancing those earthen settlements with magic would lead to the large urbane areas that form those rarely found current day ilythiiri ruins.
Was the draconic threat really such a great danger for the Ilythiiri? I remember something in the Grand History wich said that the first Green Elves were divided into those who were still in the north and those who were known as Ilythiir. The latter carved out their own realms in the south not by fighting the dragons as it was planned by the Fey when they opened the gates to bring Green elves to Faerûn, but by making treaties with the dragons of the south. That would mean the Ilythiir had made peace with the dragons, maybe were even a kind of allies of them. It would also explain why Mahartnatorian came to the south and was save there, and how Ka'Narlist came to know so much about him and when he was bound back to the north.
The underlined bit was something retconned into the timeline by the author. No other source had this info, rather on the contrary, green and dark elves have always been split into distinct subraces (e.g. Cormanthyr). Why this had to be done is everyone's guess. Unless I am mistken, hardly any information is being given about the dragons and the Ilythiiri, if the latter actually suffered from the former. (I haven't read Realms of Dragons et al though.)
The underlined bit was something retconned into the timeline by the author. No other source had this info, rather on the contrary, green and dark elves have always been split into distinct subraces (e.g. Cormanthyr). Why this had to be done is everyone's guess.
I know but it is one of the last printed sources concerning that time and the races. That said it got some verification through the LP Series, when Drow were turned back to Green elves, because they should have been such. But in the end who invented this retcon and is to blame for that? -> Iakhovas
In fact, a lot of my early musing while working on he Elven Netbook project pointed to the dark Elves being an 'offshoot' of the Sylvan (Green) Elves.
At the time I did not have the GHotR to work with either - I was going by what little canon we had in Evermeet: Isle of Eleves by Elaine Cunningham.
The 'High Elves' (Gold and Silver) arrived together from Faerie (which is now called the Feywild). The Green Elves were already on Toril when they arrived, as were the Dark Elves, which indicates to me that the proto-group of Elves were of a more 'primitive' (read: nature/spirit-worshipping) culture, and were once all part of the same group.
Ergo, long before 4e or even GhotR, I surmised that the Wood, Gruagach (Wild), and Dark Elves were all offshots of the original Sylvan (Green) Elves. This is further supported by the existance of Miyeritar, where Green and Dark Elves lived and worked alongside each other before the 'High Elves' (now Eladrin) interfered. That tells me that this was actually one group that was split along clan lines, not entirely seperate 'sub-races' (a term I am glad they finally got rid of). Even my theoretical 'Brown (Nomadic) Elves' would fall into this group.
Don't ask me about the Star Elves... they are supposedly Eladrin as well, but they didn't arive with them. The Avariels and LeShay are equally confusing (I believe the former are Eladrin now, and the later are Elves).
Anyhow, do NOT blame Brian James for the work of many - I had come to many of the same conclusions that the designers did long before 4e came to light. If you go back to the beginnins of D&D, the Elves were always divided into two seperate stereotypes - the grand, magic-wielding majestic power-houses a'la Celeborn, and the secretive, tree-dwelling wood Elves like we had in the Mirkwood. Tolkien gave us many of our D&D tropes, and they were incorporated into the original game.
4e is merely an attempt to re-capture that 'early feel' of D&D, back when people "just played the damn game", and didn't spend more time collecting sourcebooks and discussing game-theory.
This is why I do not hate 4e's objectives... I only greatly dislike the poor implimentation (IMHO).
I don't think it is a retcon at all.
In fact, a lot of my early musing while working on he Elven Netbook project pointed to the dark Elves being an 'offshoot' of the Sylvan (Green) Elves.
First, I'm not blaming Brian for this, though he was the frist to stand up and defend the idea when TGHoF was out. So I assume he had a hand in it.
Second, no insult intended, but whether you thought of it in your collection or not does not matter at all here.
Third, it is a retcon, as the prime work on Elven history of Faerûn - 90% of it being neatly C&**** into TGHotR, BTW (and that is no critique at all) - gives a distinct listing for the greens and the darks. I'd have had no problem at all if the greens had split into the wilds and the woods later on, but suddenly including the dark elves amongst them was new lore that went indirectly against what was there.
Furthermore, it is actually said in Demihuman Deities as well as Evermeet - Island of Elves that dark elves were living in the world(s) in which Kiaransalee ruled supreme, where they were actually called "drow" long before they became somesuch on Faerûn. Thus, we actually have a source saying that there was a world inhabited by dark elves.
Anyway, such prehistoric stuff is nothing I'd loose much sleep about.
Either we were all 'psychic', or it was a pretty obvious set of conclusions to draw.
If anyhting, FR lore is a retcon of original D&D lore, and all we have here is re-retcon, which means we have gone back to the way things used to be.
I find it interesting how selective people can be when judging what is and what is not a retcon (myself included).
4th edition's 'philosphy' is far closer to OD&D then any of the previous 'Advanced' versions. Now, I'm not saying thats a good thing... not at all. However, I have to admit the 'attitude' reminds me of 'the old days' (but not the mechanics, obviously).
Heck, I remember playing back when Lolth WAS the only Drow god. Nothing new there.
3e lore was a culmination of OD&D lore with 25 years or so of 'gravy' added on top of it. The 'truth' was still under there all along, but it had gotten 'reflavored' by all the sauce covering it.
All 4e did was strip it down to the meat.
Technically, thats more of retcon - losing the added layers - then say, addig those layers in the first place.
But thats just splitting hairs, which was my point. There are people who will vehemently argue that real FR ended with 2e... and from their perspective they would be right.
We all just choose a different spot to draw our line in the sand.
When OD&D started, Drow were Dark Elves and Dark Elves were Drow - there was never a 'before time' when they were like "other Elves". FR's history created the Crown wars and the descent curse (before that it was just part of the mythology, and not hard fact).
At that point, we had an 'orphaned' branch of the Elves that were never discussed before - the pre-descent Drow. They had to come from somewhere.
Personally, I would have seen them more as a branch of the High Elves that 'went bad' (and thats how I have it in the homebrew world I am currently working on). I do not like that Dark Elves were once Sylvan Elves - that makes little sense to me, considering their penchant for high magic.
However, since we had the Green Elves in play on Toril before the arrival of the High Elves, it makes more sense that the Dark Elves were indeed a more magically proficient branch of the Sylvan Elves.
I don't particularly care for that, but I have to play the hand I was dealt, and thats how the canon lore reads.
In my homebrew lore about the pre-Tiorillian Elves
I actually had all the Elves being of one race in the beginning, with the Green Elves leaving Faerie first over 'political differences' (something akin to the Crown wars happened in Faerie - history repeats itself a lot with the Elves). Since I also have it wear Elves lose their 'feyness' as they spend time away from Faerie (and in the 'mortal world'), that explains why the Elves of Toril had already begun to be less like the later arrivals. The difference wasn't really racial - it was a matter of evolution (magical, not genetic).
The High Elves were smart enough to build places of power that 'thinned' the veil seperating Toril from Faerie, so that their refuges allowed them to retain their 'feyness' longer then their woodborn kin.
Thats how I spin it - NOT that the High (Eladrin) Elves were created in imitation of Elves. I just find that too... messy. But like I said, I can't change canon, unfortunately...
In the beginning, many of the High Elves would have employed them so as to allow them to still use much of their Faerie Magic (which taps into the Feywild as a power-surce). After a time, the Elves developed Mythal technology (the word 'myth' is actual an even older Fey word meaning 'designated region'), which allowed them to forego the towers by replacing them with a massive mantle-like effect.
Note that the sidebar in the GHOTR states that the weave (magic) was concentrated over Evermeet, thus weakening it everywhere else. Now we can extrapolate out from that, and say that Mythals were designed to re-concentrate this energy in those areas that the Mythal enclosed (reproducing the effect on Evermeet on a much smaller scale).
The Dark Elves may have been the last of the High-Magic (read: Fey Magic) weilding Elves to use the Towers, because they never developed Mythals. Then again, at the time of the descent, I don't think any of the Elves were using Mythals yet, so they all had the Towers still.
After the Crown Wars, they realized how vulnerable they were (take-out a tower, and you destroy the enemy's magic before he can even cast it), and so Mythal (area) magic was born.
Also, to keep this somewhat more on Topic, I would further theorize that the Dark Elves (with the help of their Fiendish and Deific allies) managed to create a smaller, mobile version of the Towers, and they brought these with them when they went to war. Picture something akin to the Jawa's Sandcrawler from SW. These things would rumble along (probably under slave power - possibly trolls or Ogres even) and when they reached the area of the battle, the tops would 'unfold' and a massive rod would come out project into the sky.
How cool is that? :D
Like 4e, we have no 'messy canon' to get in our way.
