I always had the impression that they were they same sub-race. However, if they were not the same sub-race, that would, in my opinion, explain a lot.
~CH
). But the Dark elves in Miyeritar and Ilythiir were the same, it is only that the Ilythiiri began to worship the Dark Seldarine and were corrupted through Wendonai and other demons.-That said, genetically, Miyeritaari Dark Elves and Ilythiiri Dark Elves are/were the same thing. According to Wendonai in Storm of the Dead, he somehow tainted/corrupted the souls of certain Drow in Ilythiir. This is certainly plausible, in him mating with Ilythiiri Drow and producing Half-Field Drow offspring, who, in turn, would breed with other Drow to pass the legacy on. According to the Lady Penitent Trilogy, the Drow from Miyeritar were free of this "taint", while the Drow of Ilythiir were not. Thus, when Qilue/Q'arlynd cast the ritual at the end of Ascendancy of the Last, only those Drow who are free of the "taint"- Drow of pure Miyeritaari blood- or those who were of the Eilistraeean faith, were able to have the Descent of the Drow High Magic ritual reversed. Thus, only members of these two groups were able to become Dark Elves (Green Elves/"Wild" Elves) once more.
Thus, when Qilue/Q'arlynd cast the ritual at the end of Ascendancy of the Last
You used the Q-word? Have you after all made peace with the little fellow?-For information about Miyeritar and Ilythiir, see Elves of Faerûn.
... or even better, to get into official sources first, download Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves hereabouts:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
Nothing against Elves of Faerûn, but the authors of that neat collections do not exactly distinguish (according to themselves) between official lore and fanfiction.
As for the initial question, they were never distinguished subraces, all dark elves and green elves and gold (sun) elves and moon elves. Only the recent TGHotR entries and LP III novel created a bit of new Realmslore, for what sake we will nevber know.
Then again, elves are eladrin but also fey now, aasimar are devas ... nurse!
... or even better, to get into official sources first, download Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves hereabouts:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
-Or not, because EoF incorporates more information than the outdated aforementioned source.
Anyway, ignoring my lack of reading skills, let me see if I have this right now:
Dark Elves = Wild Elves
Dark Elves = Green Elves
Wild Elves = Green Elves
Wood Elves =/= Green Elves as of 3rd.
All Dark Elves, but not Wild Elves were turned to Drow.
All Eilistraee following Drow (whether descended from the Ilythiiri or Miyeritari) and all non-tainted descended only from Miyeritari Drow, are now Dark Elves.
All Illthiiri Drow were tainted.
Ilythiiri is not a sub-race but a kingdom/empire/regional denotation.
Yes? No?
-CH
Gah! Alright, I looked through The Grand History of the Realms , the Elves of Faerûn, and even Ascendancy of the Last , and I just can't seem to find where Dark Elves = Green Elves. I must just be missing it. Help please?
-Middle of the page, page 8, -27,000 DR.
Dark Elves = Wild Elves
Dark Elves = Green Elves
Wild Elves = Green Elves
Wood Elves =/= Green Elves as of 3rd.
-Right. As per Races of Faerûn, Wood Elves are 'Copper Elves'. Being as that this is inherently impossible, the existence of what RoF says is Wood Elves, that is, it is best to ignore such logic, and consider "Wild Elves" and Wood Elves one and the same.
All Dark Elves, but not Wild Elves were turned to Drow.
-Right.
All Eilistraee following Drow (whether descended from the Ilythiiri or Miyeritari) and all non-tainted descended only from Miyeritari Drow, are now Dark Elves.
-Yes.
All Illthiiri Drow were tainted.
-Yes.
Ilythiiri is not a sub-race but a kingdom/empire/regional denotation.
-Yes.
~CH
-Yes.
Ilythiiri? Even the good ones? How do you know? By some assumption of a novel character? For that's the issue with these novels, some info given there is clearly canon, as it is told by the author itself or stated as fact, while other info is just thinking, ideas, opinions or boasts of novel characters which cannot be deemed as canon by default. But we've gone through this often enough in previous weeks.
It is a contentious topic, this elven subraces mix-up for 4E.
As for the Elves of Faerûn ... sure it updates stuff of Cormanthyr, but how will a reader note the difference between official updates and some fanfic unless it is marked? Thus, I rather name the official sources than lead someone on a trail in which s/he might end up with fanfic lore - no matter how good it might be.
The term Ssri-tel-quessir or “dark elf” was a derogatory term applied to any elf that rejected the teachings of the Seldarine. Many green elves, with their veneration of primal fey powers or primordial evils, were seen as savages and an affront to more enlightened sun and moon elves. Over time many green elves abandoned the old ways to embrace Sehaine or Rillifane and were welcomed by their eladrin brothers. Later, when the elven high priests beseeched the Seldarine to curse the heretic “dark elves” and transform them into dhaerow, it was strictly a matter of faith and not alignment. Thus explaining how good-hearted elves of Miyeritar and Ilythiir were cursed alongside their dark-hearted brethren.
Comments?
I’m going to throw something out there for consideration:
The term Ssri-tel-quessir or “dark elf” was a derogatory term applied to any elf that rejected the teachings of the Seldarine. Many green elves, with their veneration of primal fey powers or primordial evils, were seen as savages and an affront to more enlightened sun and moon elves. Over time many green elves abandoned the old ways to embrace Sehaine or Rillifane and were welcomed by their eladrin brothers. Later, when the elven high priests beseeched the Seldarine to curse the heretic “dark elves” and transform them into dhaerow, it was strictly a matter of faith and not alignment. Thus explaining how good-hearted elves of Miyeritar and Ilythiir were cursed alongside their dark-hearted brethren.
Comments?
It makes the Seldarine seem all the more tyrannical.
The term Ssri-tel-quessir or “dark elf” was a derogatory term applied to any elf that rejected the teachings of the Seldarine. Many green elves, with their veneration of primal fey powers or primordial evils, were seen as savages and an affront to more enlightened sun and moon elves. Over time many green elves abandoned the old ways to embrace Sehaine or Rillifane and were welcomed by their eladrin brothers. Later, when the elven high priests beseeched the Seldarine to curse the heretic “dark elves” and transform them into dhaerow, it was strictly a matter of faith and not alignment. Thus explaining how good-hearted elves of Miyeritar and Ilythiir were cursed alongside their dark-hearted brethren.
Comments?
-Ssri'Tel'Quessir doesn't necessarily mean 'Dark Elves'. We don't have a direct translation of the word. It is used to describe the Dark Elves, but doesn't necessarily mean 'Dark Elf'. I postulate that it means 'People of the South', being as that the Ilythiiri were, well, very south, in relation to the other early Elven realms that were contemporaries of Ilythiir.
-That aside...It doesn't necessarily work, because the term 'Dark Elves' has usage in a non-derogatory manner, simply in describing the appearance of those particular Elves, and Araushnee, who was not yet openly evil.
-Green Elves worshiping entities like the Seelie Court, and other non-Seldarine entities, fine. That works. I wouldn't say that the Moon/Sun Elves regarded their worship as an affront to the nature of Elves, but they certainly looked down upon it. Very akin to the way the Spanish looked down on the Indians in North America, when they first began settling it. Their worship of deities other than what the Catholic Church prescribed wasn't an affront so much as it was simply the ignorance of the native peoples. Likewise, the Moon Elves and Sun Elves would feel "sorry" for the primitive Green Elves, and try to help them by introducing them to the Seldarine, "proper" Elven deities.
-In the end, there might be trouble, as Green Elves who were not Dark Elves (separating the two for a moment) worshiped the Anti-Seldarine and were not transformed upon the Descent of the Drow. In Elves of Faerûn, when I introduce the possibility of Rockseer Elves being present in Realmspace, I use these Elves as a hypothesis as to the Rockseer' origins, cursed by the Seldarine for their misdeeds.
Considering the position of Aryvandaar, and that kingdom/empire's demeanor, the whole Ssri-tel-quessir being "of the south" thing makes a lot of sense in my opinion. However, I do see Ssri-tel-quessier being used a lot in conjunction with dark elves even by dark elves (i.e. TGHotR pg 14).
Unfortunately, none of that would work if anyone has any specific, canon references of Green Elves at the time of the decent worshiping the Anti-Seldarine and not becoming Drow, or, inversely, of Dark Elves that were worshipers of the Seladrine becoming Drow.
Anyone? (I'm looking at you Lord Karsus!)
If that's the case (Green Elves following the Anti-Seldarine at the time of the decent and not becoming Drow), then perhaps go back to the fey powers thing and have the "dark elves" having been a tribe or whatever of Green Elves that had once been a part of the Unseelie court? They could have been "tainted/touched" magically by this in a way that passes through the bloodlines (sort of like some of the Warlock 3rd ed explanations) and that other fae can detect, thus making them "dark". Not a Wendonai type of tainting, but one that is purely fey and magical in nature. This could also explain, in my opinion, how some other fae creatures ending up in the underdark as well, but not all of them.
~CH
Considering the position of Aryvandaar, and that kingdom/empire's demeanor, the whole Ssri-tel-quessir being "of the south" thing makes a lot of sense in my opinion. However, I do see Ssri-tel-quessier being used a lot in conjunction with dark elves even by dark elves (i.e. TGHotR pg 14).
-Southerners (ie, those in the American South) call themselves 'Southerners'.
Unfortunately, none of that would work if anyone has any specific, canon references of Green Elves at the time of the decent worshiping the Anti-Seldarine and not becoming Drow, or, inversely, of Dark Elves that were worshipers of the Seladrine becoming Drow.
-Some of the Sharn of the recently returned City of Hope worshiped "the Pentad", of which Corellon Larethian and Sehanine Moonbow (I believe Sehanine Moonbow was involved) were members. Before they became Sharn, they were Green Elves (Dark Elves), being as they did not want to become Drow upon reverting to their previous forms.
Anyone? (I'm looking at you Lord Karsus!)
-Uh oh...Stage fright...
It's a good explanation Ikhavos, but I don't feel that it would have to be primordial evils or fey powers. By the time of the decent, if I'm following TGHotR correctly, Eilistraee had already left the Seldarine, Lolth was gaining a following, Wendonai was already doing his thing, and Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun, and Kiaransalee had had followers for years. The dark elves, as you stated, would be those Green Elves that followed any non-Seldarine, or even more particularly, the Anti/Dark-Seldarine (which, if I remember correctly, Eilistraee was considered a part of). The good dark elves would be those that followed Eilistraee.
I agree with this btw. Worship of any non-Seldarine would qualify, including as you stated above Eilistraee, Lolth, Ghaunadaur, etc...
It's still not clear to me if the dark elf sharn were later released or if they remained trapped--because it would take *another* High Magic ritual such as the one described in Blackstaff to release them.
-It's a possibility. The "ritual of unbinding" that undid the original spell could have completely wiped from the residual magic the charms that altered the Drow of Miyeritari blood. Thus, in theory, the Sharn who were Green Elves (Dark Elves) from Miyeritar with "untainted" blood could have freely reverted to their original form anytime after 1378 DR. Of course, on the other hand, it could have been a "one time only" thing, spurred on by the power that was Eilistraee's death. If this was the case, it would be impossible to revert back into Green Elf (Dark Elf) form, from Sharn form, as Eilistraee's sacrifice would be past.
unless its become an Eladrin....... :-(By my way of thinking, the elven sharn that reveared Corellon and Sehanine (both part of the Pentad) were restored as green elves. The others remained as dark elves (at least until the events of the LPIII).
Sounds good to me, and without any conflicting stuff (I haven't found anything, but I'll be the first to admit my resources aren't all that great), the religion angle (the spell targeting only and all non-Seldarine green elves) just plain ol' makes sense. Yeah, it makes the Seldarine seem harsh, but the elves were destroying everything and each other with no end in sight and not much of an option except to keep them separated. I don't think the Seladrine would have done this if they knew that this was all part of and/or fell right in line with Lolth's scheming, but she seemed to be hiding her influence well at this point. Also, I may not like it, but Eilistraee's followers and other "good" dark elves being caught in the mix seems to go along with Eilistraee religion's tenants of making that same self-sacrifice that Eilistraee did, to try to save ALL the drow from evil ways.
Southerners (ie, those in the American South) call themselves 'Southerners'.
Good point and I still agree, personally, that the term Ssri-tel-quessir seems to make the most sense as meaning "people of the south".
It's still not clear to me if the dark elf sharn were later released or if they remained trapped--because it would take *another* High Magic ritual such as the one described in Blackstaff to release them.
Thus, in theory, the Sharn who were Green Elves (Dark Elves) from Miyeritar with "untainted" blood could have freely reverted to their original form anytime after 1378 DR.
Hmm, reading over the description of both rituals I'm personally of the opinion that they'd be stuck as sharn unless another Blackstaff type ritual took place, but that if another such ritual did take place that they would be dark elves/green elves and not drow afterwards. Both seemed to be a one time thing. But where as being a part of the Blackstaff ritual seemed to be voluntary, the Ascendancy of the Last ritual didn't seem to be voluntary. The ritual in Ascendancy of the Last seemed to be more of a complete and permanent severing, if that makes sense.
However, that all might be moot anyway. The sharn didn't want to change because they FELT that they would turn into drow. I don't think they really KNEW one way or another. That might mean that ALL the sharn green elves decided to stay as sharn. They might even not be willing to risk the change now, after the Ascendancy of the Last ritual.
The reason I have that opinion is that I don't feel that at the time of the decent, especially using religion as a main part of the "targeting system", that it would have been necessarily apparent that it only hit "dark elves" (especially since some green elves may have been closet dark elves, so to speak). This might help to further explain why wild elves don't seem to get along with any of the other elves and why they are the way they are. It would also help to explain the apparent shame that so many Illefarn elves felt after the decent, especially since they harbored so many green/dark elves. Heck, I'm guessing that agents of Lolth might have even helped to shape the ritual. Overall, like with the sundering, the eladrin probably didn't fully understand what it was they were doing.
Anywho, that's my take.
~CH
BTW ... I noted that the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, who gives the drow as a player race, does not exactly distinguish between drow and dark elves. I would not be surprised if - due to novel continuety (Drizzt novel reprints) - the LP III episode will be swept under the carpet and we won't have any "special" dark elves running about on the surface.
Possibly, but I suspect they'll roll something out for DDI.
The whole 30,000 years of elven history was just a trick. An elaborate prank played on other races by Erevan Ilesere himself.
Sheesh! I thought you all knew this. ;)
There is no logical way for all this mess to make sense, so DM's will have quite a bit of work to do.
I propose that Ssri-tel-quessir does mean "dark elf" but not due to the color of their skin (we already know green elves had dark skin). It would translate more directly to "people who have abandoned the light", or those who have turned away from the 'enlightened' teachings of the Seldarine.
A problem with having Ssri-tel-quessir translate to "people of the south" would be Miyeritar, which is much further north than Keltormir, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, Syorpiir, and Orishaar.
I propose that Ssri-tel-quessir does mean "dark elf" but not due to the color of their skin (we already know green elves had dark skin). It would translate more directly to "people who have abandoned the light", or those who have turned away from the 'enlightened' teachings of the Seldarine.
Great. Here he comes to confuse things.
Copper elves (wood elves) have copper skin with green tints and highlights.
Dark elves (drow) have obsidian skin.
Ilythiiri elves (dark elves before the descent) have a dusky hued skin tone.
A problem with having Ssri-tel-quessir translate to "people of the south" would be Miyeritar, which is much further north than Keltormir, Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, Syorpiir, and Orishaar.
I propose that Ssri-tel-quessir does mean "dark elf" but not due to the color of their skin (we already know green elves had dark skin). It would translate more directly to "people who have abandoned the light", or those who have turned away from the 'enlightened' teachings of the Seldarine.
-The term was coined before Miyeritar came into existence. Miyeritar was founded all the way in -18,800 DR. The survivors of Tintageer arrived on the planet almost seven thousand years before. And, again, people who are from the South that leave the South are still referred to as 'Southerners'. So, a family in Maine originally from Kentucky are still Southerners.
-Also, something to keep in mind, that may or may not be of any importance: Ssri'Tel'Quessir never was given an actual, canon meaning. As such, it appears to me that the term was really of little "academic" importance, akin to something like, say, how an anthropologist doesn't use the term 'black', but rather 'African-[Nationality]'.
Sounds good to me, and without any conflicting stuff (I haven't found anything, but I'll be the first to admit my resources aren't all that great), the religion angle (the spell targeting only and all non-Seldarine green elves) just plain ol' makes sense. Yeah, it makes the Seldarine seem harsh, but the elves were destroying everything and each other with no end in sight and not much of an option except to keep them separated.
It still doesn't sit well with me, sorry. If the Seldarine don't like it when elves worship beings other than them, then why haven't they punished people in such a way in recent times (ie. turn them into drow)? If they have no problem with elves worshipping other beings, then why would they punish such people simply at the behest of their priests? I didn't think priests get to tell their gods what to do--I thought it was the other way around.
I think I'll stick with my unseeliee taint thing till something gets "canonized". Then I'll stick with that, till something else gets "canonized". And so on and so forth.
Go forth ye Realms canon type people and "canonize" new things! :evillaugh
~CH
It still doesn't sit well with me, sorry. If the Seldarine don't like it when elves worship beings other than them, then why haven't they punished people in such a way in recent times (ie. turn them into drow)? If they have no problem with elves worshipping other beings, then why would they punish such people simply at the behest of their priests? I didn't think priests get to tell their gods what to do--I thought it was the other way around.
Yeah, it's always bugged me that the Seladarine went to such an extreme and arbitrary length to punish the dark elves, many of whom were not deserving of such punishment. But weren't there intimations (in GHotR? a novel?) that the ritual that made the dark elves dhaerow went awry? That it did more than the High Mages who cast it intended, in a manner they didn't expect? Maybe it didn't happen the way the Seladarine intended (perhaps some interference by Lolth or something) but they couldn't redo it once it was done? Gods in the Realms are far from omnipotent. And there's always the "gods move in mysterious ways" POV, so maybe they did it for some sort of "greater good." Or maybe they were just too busy having an orgy to pay attention. You know those crazy elf gods! :P :rolleye2:
-But, while we're condemning the Seldarine here, let's not forget that the G-d of many religions has supposedly created the world and all of her peoples and such, and yet terribly punished numerous groups for offenses and such, so it's not that 'out there'.
It still doesn't sit well with me, sorry. If the Seldarine don't like it when elves worship beings other than them, then why haven't they punished people in such a way in recent times (ie. turn them into drow)? If they have no problem with elves worshipping other beings, then why would they punish such people simply at the behest of their priests? I didn't think priests get to tell their gods what to do--I thought it was the other way around.
Perhaps it is because at the time of the Descent, the power of the elven race had not yet begun to wane; whereas in recent history, with humans being the ascendant race, the Seldarine has to tread lightly to avoid stepping on the toes of the various human pantheons.
Perhaps it is because at the time of the Descent, the power of the elven race had not yet begun to wane; whereas in recent history, with humans being the ascendant race, the Seldarine has to tread lightly to avoid stepping on the toes of the various human pantheons.
At least this problem was solved, since they never existed and most of them are the same for humans and changed only the name. :embarrass Does'nt mean that this don't bring a new question in.
If some of them were human deities in disquise as elven deities, they were allways strong and especially those with worshippers from humans and elves were stronger than the ones with only elves (like the oh so mighty Corellon), so the question of Rinonalyrna Fathomlin stays the same and had nothing to do with the powers of the involved gods.