A bit early for Egypt and Babylonia, but pretty good for Sumeria (there are also Sumerian Gods in the Untheric Pantheon).
I figure they didn't actually take people form the Empire period, but rather scarfed up random goups from all around the Indo-European region. hence the mixed-up Pantheons.
Isn't time a portfolio of Mystra? Make she put a bottle cap on it like magic :P
-It was of Mystryl, but it "went away" when she was reborn as Mystra. It's currently unclaimed.
The absense of any Time portfolio among any pantheons [excluding that held by Labelas] indicates that there is currently no true emphasis of the Time portfolio on Toril at this point. I'm content to believe that the Time portfolio is currently unclaimed in the human pantheons... it's largely supported by the lore and we've seen nothing to suggest otherwise at this point. Eric may have other ideas for the portfolio itself... something that couldn't be explored properly in the material for F&P or LEoF and so held back on it until it could be treated completely:-
"I agree, it's pretty unclear at the moment, and I'm not sure I'd want to be definitive about it until some future project (I have nothing in mind) called for it. (In other words, leave room for further development.)
--Eric"
For myself, I'd say it should probably be given to Jergal.
I reckon that that Time portfolio (once held by Mystryl) was passed on to the obscure deity Chronos (AKA Kronus, Karonis), a human god of time (in the Vast Swamp realm of Orva), who was later absorbed by Labelas Enoreth, the elven god.
-That's possible, but As Kronus existed in a different pantheon as Mystryl, he and Mystryl could have held the portfolio simultaneously.
I reckon that that Time portfolio (once held by Mystryl) was passed on to the obscure deity Chronos (AKA Kronus, Karonis), a human god of time (in the Vast Swamp realm of Orva), who was later absorbed by Labelas Enoreth, the elven god.
Eric and I have tinkered with something like this previously.
Chronos is [was] an alias of Labelas.
Interestingly, I've also thought about the possibility that the Time portfolio may have ended up in the hands of Labelas...
To which, Eric added:- "...depending on whether you see the human kingdom of Orva being a Netherese survivor state."
Orva's status as a human kingdom is probable [see the 'Orva' details in the second paragraph of Labelas's entry], according to Eric, who said:- "I add the [probable] qualifier because I had to insert a little bit of Realmslore in Demihuman Deities in the write-up of Labelas Enoreth. (Look at the alias list.) This was to patch up the lack of a time portfolio among any human Realms god and because the only gods left to detail at the time were nonhuman gods.
--Eric"
Time domain is nice though given Imp.Init. don't know anything about Kronos, but it's safe to assume when they couldn't think of original gods, like this one (ancient Greece anyone?), they kinda' fudged it.
Silvanus (celt, right?), the entirety of the Mulhourandi/Untheric pantheons in some cannibalized "Star Gate" rip-off, Chauntea on the Moonshaes as the "Earthmother" (wtf, seems proto Wiccan to me), etc. i mean, the conceptual arrangements of the other dynamics that were original are fairly keen and fresh; Shar, Cyric, Tempus, the whole elven pantheon, etc. some good stuff there. why did they have to go and basically steal a huge chunk of Earth's mythology? not exactly a shrewd move in terms of game design...
why did they have to go and basically steal a huge chunk of Earth's mythology? not exactly a shrewd move in terms of game design...
-To demonstrate that said deities are multispheric.
-To demonstrate that said deities are multispheric.
um, ok...
reason is kinda' leading me to think otherwise though. it's not even an original conceit though. something tells me they were sittin' around brainstormin' and thought how much they liked one of Earth's most widely studied (and easilly known and accessible) pantheons and thought, "let's use this."
you guys remember Deities and Demigods from back in the day, right? most of it was Earthen mythoi. well developed and all, but Earthen. i'm guessing that played a big part in it, not some "groundbreaking idea" that gods can have influence on more than one world.
something tells me they were sittin' around brainstormin' and thought how much they liked one of Earth's most widely studied (and easilly known and accessible) pantheons and thought, "let's use this."
-Yes, which demonstrates that said deities are multispheric, and that connections between Earth and Abeir-Toril exist.
Each world winds up being a 'battleground' between the forces of 'light' (Good/law) and the forces of 'dark' (Evil/Chaos), and on most there is a balance, but on some the balance tips and one group or another are in control. Those worlds are doomed, because prime material planes NEED balance, and without it, they become closer and closer plane-wise to whatever alignment they exemplify. That fits in perfectly with how we know the Great Wheel Cosmology works (Border Towns). Eventually, the Prime World becomes so much like its outer-plane parent that it merges with it and ceases to exist in the prime. Thats why the Outer Planes are limitless - they are constantly growing as they absorb prime planes.
So, with that in mind, Cyric = Loki = Arioch = Knight of the Swords, etc...
Its not wierd that some gods have the same names; normally that only occurs when a group interlopes from another prime. In truth, all the gods have other names on other worlds, and we can see in canon that some gods have several names, depending on which group is doing the worship. Abeir-Toril is just about the worst-offender of this sort of 'divine drift' because it is the World of Portals, the very fulctum of the Prime Material Planes - a veritable 'crossroads', if you will, to all other prime worlds.
Now, I have my own theories of why that would be, but suffice it to say that "All (planar) roads lead to the Realms", and thats why it unfortunely starts to look like a cosmic dumping ground every few millenium.
Now, about the Imaskari - I LOVE the Stargate take on them, and thats EXACTLY how I portray them! They were known as the Imaskari on their homeworld of Abeir-Toril, but throughout the rest of the multiverse they became known as the Goa'uld, straight out of SG1 (minus all the Sci-Fi stuff, of course - their 'tech' was really magic). Ancient Egypt was just one of the few place they set up colonies, and you can see some of their culture on hundreds of worlds (anything with pyramids, like the Suloise Imperium of Greyhawk, and the Nithians of Mystara). In fact, the Nithinas may have been a very powerful Imaskari survivor-state, because their culture rose right around the same time that Imaskar fell (and they may have had Spelljamming tech).
So, its not so much that a RW culture 'polluted' FR, but rather an FR culture spread throughout the Universe, and we can find evidence of it in the RW (Egypt, Asia, Mesoamerica).
-Yes, which demonstrates that said deities are multispheric, and that connections between Earth and Abeir-Toril exist.
you're missing the big picture...
you're missing the big picture...
-The big picture is that deities are multispheric, and it's silly to say that, if given the chance/ability to, one would not branch out to other Crystal Spheres.
-The big picture is that deities are multispheric, and it's silly to say that, if given the chance/ability to, one would not branch out to other Crystal Spheres.
Agreed.
never implied they wouldn't want to branch out in the many worlds. i mean, it stands to reason; more worlds (possible faithful) means more power.
i'm talking about their inception and the creative process.
what i mean to say is what came first, the chicken or the egg? great, they're multi-spheric. not exactly something to stop the presses you know. that is, we've all know this since 1st ed. and no one is arguing that. why did you presume that anyway? i mean, one word, "Lolth". there we go. moving on...
my point earlier: the game design and artistic license is on the table before the gods in question get in print and shuffle off to these other worlds in tandem. the bigger picture as it were rests w/ the guys that make this product (a game) which is first before it gets playtested, marketed, distributed, etc. if they were more loyal to their respective creations, FR, Greyhawk, Krynn, etc,. less gods would make guest appearances and so on...
what i mean to say is what came first, the chicken or the egg?
-The egg. You did not specify if you were asking about chicken eggs, so I have to assume you were not. Thus, as dinosaurs laid eggs, and existed long before chickens, the egg came first.
-I hate when people act as if that particular phrase presents an unsolvable conundrum. It's very simple.
Anyhow, I see the point Ghost is making - We know, IG, why gods appear on multiple worlds, but really, when it comes right down to it, that was just laziness on the part of the designers. At the time they bought this product off of Ed, he was using gods from various places, which is all well and good in a homebrew. Once it went public, however, why weren't they all renamed?
Why did we get Silvanus and Loviatar? Don't get me wrong, I like those gods, but would it have been that hard to come up with a new name?
They did it for Kossuth....
But have you figured out why he crossed the road yet? Hmmm?
-Because of the concept of Chaos Theory, there is an infinite amount of causes for the chicken's exodus from "this" side of the street, to "the other side" of the street.
Anyhow, I see the point Ghost is making - We know, IG, why gods appear on multiple worlds, but really, when it comes right down to it, that was just laziness on the part of the designers. At the time they bought this product off of Ed, he was using gods from various places, which is all well and good in a homebrew. Once it went public, however, why weren't they all renamed?
Why did we get Silvanus and Loviatar? Don't get me wrong, I like those gods, but would it have been that hard to come up with a new name?
They did it for Kossuth....
-Yes, I understand. And, I answered it: to demonstrate that that connections between Earth and Abeir-Toril exist.
Gotta agree with LK there... eggs easily predate the evolution of chickens. Other stuff pretty much sounds right too. ;)
-LK would never lead you astray.
That's what I've always taken the question to mean...but I like how LK solved it, based on what was actually asked rather than what was implied. THAT'S the way to do it!
What about this, though: Which came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?
-The chicken. If you wrote, "What came first, the chicken egg, of the chicken", then I would have said, "the chicken egg". After all, you did write, "the chicken" before "the chicken egg". ;)
-But, seriously, the correct answer is the egg. Because of genetics, there is no reason why a chicken had to lay the egg that hatched the first chicken. Instead, a "proto-chicken" lays the egg, which hatches, and becomes the first chicken. Thus, the egg still comes first.
But have you figured out why he crossed the road yet? Hmmm?
Anyhow, I see the point Ghost is making - We know, IG, why gods appear on multiple worlds, but really, when it comes right down to it, that was just laziness on the part of the designers. At the time they bought this product off of Ed, he was using gods from various places, which is all well and good in a homebrew. Once it went public, however, why weren't they all renamed?
Why did we get Silvanus and Loviatar? Don't get me wrong, I like those gods, but would it have been that hard to come up with a new name?
They did it for Kossuth....
ah, thank you for validation w/out pretense, ego, or meandering tangent.
i mean, i don't wanna' rag on Ed cuz', truth be told, we owe him...well, maybe we're square from all the cash we funneled into FR products, but yeah Markus, "laziness" has been mentioned before in hushed tones even amongst the most ardent Faerunian zealots. but, that's just the pantheon(s), so no biggie i guess. just a piece of the pie. the geography, history, and overall new game concepts compensate i suppose as they are undisputedly more developed than the competitions' (Eberron, Krynn, etc).
i mean, it breaks my heart to see alot of fresh material like Thay, the Shadow Weave, not just another bland Underdark, Shadovar, etc. be somehow lessened by cannibalized pantheons. the whole gestalt that is. who knows. not sure who got Lolth first and the like. some of these are necessary evils in certain respects i suppose. it's just Ed was doing so damn well. i mean, there's a reason(s) FR outsells the others, you know? it isn't marketing so much as R&D. but the "creative" borrowing of other gods, laziness, or whatever you want to call it is pretty b/w in it's obviousness.
can you copy right a god? why did they borrow a select few and never extrapolate on their multi-spherism? how are Lolth and Silvanus different from the ones on other worlds? if multi-spherism is in play and the mechanics they invented support the deific status quo per rank/power/influence/etc., wouldn't they be drastically more powerful than gods that exist on 1 world alone? if they kill a god on 1 plane, must they on the others? who is tyler durden?
not sure, don't have the answers, but i do have a copy of Faiths and Pantheons and plenty of XP since '87 to reflect on.
why weren't they all renamed? good question. though, i can't help but notice alot of other non-FR supplements that employ "new gods" seem a Hell of alot like their FR predecessors, just the namesake it different.
oh, well, screw it. multi-spheric god complex cosmic weirdness is like saying, air is good. there's no right and wrong, points of success or concession in a maxim that everyone (save homebrews) has abided since, what, '76?
there is no connection between earth/toril so much as one man's creative endeavors to help facilitate game design. no pedastle, no pit. i think that was pretty well demonstrated on Oerth too. oh, and Krynn, and Ravenloft, and Mystara, Eberron, and so on...
can you copy right a god?
-No, no you cannot. A few years ago, when I first started college, a Christian sect tried to copyright the concept of the Christian G-d. They were not able to. WotC might have been able to, as they simply used names, which are public domain, and gave them their own in-setting histories.
if they kill a god on 1 plane, must they on the others?
-Depends on your outlook on the cosmos. Some believe that a deity exists as a "puppet master", pulling the strings of all of his/her/its aspects in different Crystal Spheres. Others don't subscribe to that theory, and that what you see is what you get, everywhere.
who is tyler durden?
-Tyler Do'Urden is a poster on these boards.
why weren't they all renamed? good question.
-Then we'd have more 'Tabot's. Do we really want that? I don't think so...
there is no connection between earth/toril so much as one man's creative endeavors to help facilitate game design. no pedastle, no pit. i think that was pretty well demonstrated on Oerth too. oh, and Krynn, and Ravenloft, and Mystara, Eberron, and so on...
-The 'backstory' behind the Forgotten Realms was that it was the place where all of the fantastical creatures that once lived and flourished on Earth went to. So, yes, the setting was designed with connections in mind from the get-go.
-No, no you cannot. A few years ago, when I first started college, a Christian sect tried to copyright the concept of the Christian G-d. They were not able to. WotC might have been able to, as they simply used names, which are public domain, and gave them their own in-setting histories.
that sucks and is a bit blasphemous to boot. sorry. i take it you weren't "okay w/ it", yes? i mean, it's not like God phoned his lawyer and got w/ these kids to kick start this bombast, you know?
i'm a PK myself and i wouldn't presume something that, uh, foolish or pretentious, but that's just me, product of my environment i guess.
all the god's names in printed text of WotC games are public domain? didn't know that. this is actually quite useful to me, thank you. details at 11...
-Depends on your outlook on the cosmos. Some believe that a deity exists as a "puppet master", pulling the strings of all of his/her/its aspects in different Crystal Spheres. Others don't subscribe to that theory, and that what you see is what you get, everywhere.
lot of theories to consider in that, but it's ALL CONTINGENT on the respective game designers playing ball w/ one another to compliment theoretical deicide in cross planar fashion. they had no qualms about killing off Mystra to suit a rather contrived and "convenient" explanation for 4th ed easilly enough, but she's a stand alone on Faerun, not a clone on Oerth, etc.
makes me wonder what Ed thought when they said, "yeah, we're gonna' need to totally revamp your world to suit another edition. get busy please." poor guy. IMO, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. such a radical paradigm shift... it's not like the overall feel and transition from 2nd to 3rd ed was so liberal. it was easy enough to envision and fold into the "new way" (OGL, d20). not this.
-Tyler Do'Urden is a poster on these boards.
um, that was a joke to lighten the mood. i know, i've seen the guy (poster) around and all. just a quip from fight club. sorry, big Palanhiuk fan.
-Then we'd have more 'Tabot's. Do we really want that? I don't think so...
Tabot? gonna' plead ignorance here.
educate plz cuz' i don't know enough of what you're implying to know what i want or let someone speak for me in that respect btw.-The 'backstory' behind the Forgotten Realms was that it was the place where all of the fantastical creatures that once lived and flourished on Earth went to. So, yes, the setting was designed with connections in mind from the get-go.
weren't they all though? it's not exactly cutting-edge thinking/design, though necessary to be brief. that's the beauty of iconic monsters like unicorns, trolls, vampires, etc. but, alot of the FR specific stuff is gold.
that sucks and is a bit blasphemous to boot. sorry. i take it you weren't "okay w/ it", yes? i mean, it's not like God phoned his lawyer and got w/ these kids to kick start this bombast, you know?
i'm a PK myself and i wouldn't presume something that, uh, foolish or pretentious, but that's just me, product of my environment i guess.
-I wasn't particularly bothered with it, as (A) it's not my religion, and (B) I knew from the get go that they'd never be able to do it.
-What's a PK, anyway? The only PK I know is "Pariah King", a fellow boards member here! ;)
all the god's names in printed text of WotC games are public domain? didn't know that. this is actually quite useful to me, thank you. details at 11...
-No, no, you misunderstood. Only the ones who are actually real deities at some point on Earth, like, say, Silvanus, who was worshipped by...the Celts? Whoever it was. The name, and the general principles are public domain, but the specific details that WotC came up with is their property.
they had no qualms about killing off Mystra to suit a rather contrived and "convenient" explanation for 4th ed easilly enough, but she's a stand alone on Faerun, not a clone on Oerth, etc.
-Well, the Weave was unique, as it existed only in Realmspace...
makes me wonder what Ed thought when they said, "yeah, we're gonna' need to totally revamp your world to suit another edition. get busy please." poor guy. IMO, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. such a radical paradigm shift... it's not like the overall feel and transition from 2nd to 3rd ed was so liberal. it was easy enough to envision and fold into the "new way" (OGL, d20). not this.
-There isn't anything he can really do. He doesn't own the Forgotten Realms. WotC does. He stopped owning them as soon as he sold the license to TSR.
-That aside, he does have personal feelings, of course, and based on how he hasn't endorsed the changes for 4e, when he could have. Instead, he simply has been telling people to "wait and see", when he could have been raving about how "cool" it is. That doesn't bode well for it, in my mind, you know?
um, that was a joke to lighten the mood. i know, i've seen the guy (poster) around and all. just a quip from fight club. sorry, big Palanhiuk fan.
-Oh. Never seen the movie. All I know is that they make soap out of sweat, or something to that effect.
Tabot? gonna' plead ignorance here.
-It is a region in Kara-Tur. It is mostly in the mountains, and most Humans in the region live in clustered temples, run by Lamas. In other words, Tibet. See it, now? Tibet? Tabot? Yeah...
weren't they all though
-Not as far as I know, no.
-I wasn't particularly bothered with it, as (A) it's not my religion, and (B) I knew from the get go that they'd never be able to do it.
-What's a PK, anyway? The only PK I know is "Pariah King", a fellow boards member here! ;)
i would've been (perturbed anyway), but would have known to politely distance myself from that movement. it's kinda' silly. should be studying, not pulling socio-religious stunts.
went to a religious college too (Capital Univ) from '95-'99, but being a PK gets you 50% off tuition in that respect.
what's your religion/lack thereof if you don't mind my asking?
oh, and PK, "pastor's kid". my mother is a lutheran (ELCA) pastor. this gets me alot of static sometimes. growing up especially, you're expected to be a goody goody or a hellion. no middle ground. and consider the Satanic Panic in the 80's and the pressure she got having 2 kids starting to game in '83. awkward...even now, it can be cumbersome but i do not begrudge her choice/Calling cuz' she raised 2 boys alone, worked F/T doing it, and was a student F/T (gotta' have a graduate degree in Divinity to be a "modern day cleric" as it were);) . very protean woman.
related: she did help us get a budget to game as a "youth group function" at our church back in the day. $ for books, junk food, dice, etc...so choice when you're 12-15 (read, poor). now, um, yeah...
No, no, you misunderstood. Only the ones who are actually real deities at some point on Earth, like, say, Silvanus, who was worshipped by...the Celts? Whoever it was. The name, and the general principles are public domain, but the specific details that WotC came up with is their property.
i stand corrected. thank you.
you're right, he's Celt i believe.
so Mystra's Weave, Bane's Thunder Room, or the Darkhouse are copyrighted?
-There isn't anything he can really do. He doesn't own the Forgotten Realms. WotC does. He stopped owning them as soon as he sold the license to TSR.
oh, that's right. bone head move, sorry, i forgot. should've known that.
why did he do that anyway? breaks my heart and i'd wager it's probably left him a little raw too.
-That aside, he does have personal feelings, of course, and based on how he hasn't endorsed the changes for 4e, when he could have. Instead, he simply has been telling people to "wait and see", when he could have been raving about how "cool" it is. That doesn't bode well for it, in my mind, you know?
personal feelings might be overridden by business acumen. he might be biting his tongue given legal constraints/common sense. that is, i'm sure they're watching old designers/artists/etc. like hawks under the pretense of slander or libel given their new flagship. Gygax's demise i'm sure has helped has alot to do with this as well. not a pleasant time to be in. i feel for him. sucks.
"wait and see" is often the wise man's mantra of, "you know it's going to be poor, let them prove this on their own so we don't look like ogres (or get sued)."
-Oh. Never seen the movie. All I know is that they make soap out of sweat, or something to that effect.
book...film came 2nd. the author is brilliant, very progressive, if not a bit nihilistic in his artistry. the soap is a tertiary element, not pivotal overall. i'd recommend this highly to read, or watch the film if short on time.
-It is a region in Kara-Tur. It is mostly in the mountains, and most Humans in the region live in clustered temples, run by Lamas. In other words, Tibet. See it, now? Tibet? Tabot? Yeah...
um, ok...gods and geography don't mix well. your lead was tricky to follow i confess. i see now what you're saying/implying among other things.
Not as far as I know, no.
this is dangerously similar to Shadowrun's premise. mayan 5th world goes to 6th in 2012 i think, magic returns. this is on a 5,000yr cycle too. think of a sine wave; low end, no magic. closer you get to the 0, less work you have to do to work it.
after "the awakening" (6th world, positive end of sine wave for magic), it gets progressively easier and alot of normal things resume their previous "magical" forms from eons past. some horses "awaken" to become unicorns, a kid's invisible friend suddenly isn't invisible, 10% of humans "goblinize" into orcs and trolls, etc.
their gyst was these critters and concepts always existed, they, like the rest of nature and it's elements, ebb and flow in cycles. we just forgot is all.
i would've been (perturbed anyway), but would have known to politely distance myself from that movement.
-Exactly. It's a stupid thing, so instead of getting worked up over it, people (at least, I know I felt this way) was more or less unimpressed. A "whatever" moment, is probably the best way to describe it.
what's your religion/lack thereof if you don't mind my asking?
-I am a Conservative Jew. I was born this way, but was "converted" to Christianity by my zealous, fanatic Stepfather, who forced us all to attend church every Sunday. When I was older, I eventually threw it all away, returning to the religion I was most comfortable with.
oh, and PK, "pastor's kid".
-Oh.
related: she did help us get a budget to game as a "youth group function" at our church back in the day. $ for books, junk food, dice, etc...so choice when you're 12-15 (read, poor). now, um, yeah...
-That = Awesome!
so Mystra's Weave, Bane's Thunder Room, or the Darkhouse are copyrighted?
-Yeah. Mystra, and Bane are both original WotC property, so they are off limits. Silvanus, the Celtic nature deity, is not off limits. Silvanus, the Faerûnian nature deity is off limits.
oh, that's right. bone head move, sorry, i forgot. should've known that.
why did he do that anyway? breaks my heart and i'd wager it's probably left him a little raw too.
-Sad? You should be happy! If it weren't for this, we wouldn't be "sitting" here talking right now. There would have been no Forgotten Realms campaign setting. We might be playing Greyhawk, or Eberron.
personal feelings might be overridden by business acumen. he might be biting his tongue given legal constraints/common sense. that is, i'm sure they're watching old designers/artists/etc. like hawks under the pretense of slander or libel given their new flagship. Gygax's demise i'm sure has helped has alot to do with this as well. not a pleasant time to be in. i feel for him. sucks.
"wait and see" is often the wise man's mantra of, "you know it's going to be poor, let them prove this on their own so we don't look like ogres (or get sued)."
-Here is the entire quote:
Show
Hello, all. I continue to receive e-mails, phone calls, snail mail letters, and in-person queries, beefs, and pleas for reassurance from longtime Realms fans - - and continue to be humbled by the depth of your feeling for the Realms. Thank you, everyone.
Though I am frantically busy trying to get things done before flying off to Australia (during which trip I will almost certainly fall e-silent, BTW) I will try to respond to scribes who have posted in this thread, as I come to your posts in the e-mails THO forwards me.
Red Walker, you’re welcome, thanks for the love, and you are very, very right to say: “Fear of change is natural, and greater fear of Big changes is too!”
The reactions of Realms fans were expected for this very reason. Of COURSE everyone will be upset, or at least anxious, in some way, whether eager for change or hating its possible/probable consequences. Wooly Rupert and others are correct to say we haven’t seen enough yet to really judge the so-called “new” Realms, and I agree.
None of which doesn’t make opinions on it, based on the little we have seen, perfectly valid. Zandilar isn’t the only one to decide that the changes she’s heard about thus far seem “so... well... dumb, to put it bluntly.”
Please, please, all of you: respect each other’s opinions. Disagree with them as heatedly as you want, but please bend over backwards not to disrespect each other for holding them. As it happens, the way the “peekaboo” revelations have thus far appeared (I’m guessing so as to foment maximum “buzz” and therefore unpaid publicity), I agree with Zandilar. Those don’t sound like MY gods. :}
However, Chosen of Moradin quite rightly points out that “a timeline is not an explanation of what happens. It's only a summary. And a summary cannot explain clearly anything. The summary of the Fall of Myth Drannor don't explain the Fall of Myth Drannor. So, to see exactly what happened, we will have to wait until the next FRCS.”
Correct. As I’ve always said, mortals in the Realms can never know the “truth” about divine deeds and intentions, only what’s reported to them. By deities, priests, soothsayers, “possessed” madwits, and in dream-visions - - and ALL of those sources can be mistaken or misinterpreted, or can lie and distort or slant to further their own agendas. Yes, even the gods themselves. So what appears in THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS is what “the loudest reports say” happened, not what every being in the Realms personally saw and therefore “knows” (and agrees) happened.
It should be obvious to everyone by now that there are major changes in magic and the deities underway, and that the Spellplague is part of that. We now know that it begins in the Year of Blue Fire, in a dramatic way, and that part of Bob’s newest novel takes place a hundred years in the future (at a time when almost all human characters alive in the Realms of “today,” if they haven’t found some magical means of prolonging their lifespans - - in a “magic unstable and unreliable” situation - - will have perished of old age).
Which brings us to eiglos, who posts: “My only current played character in the Realms is a Priestess of Lurue. Her future must be uncertain, unless Lurue returns to her original role in the Realms.”
Passing over the obvious points that everyone’s future is always uncertain, and that the particular priestess will almost certainly have died of old age by the time of THE ORC KING anyway, we know that gods can and have been subsumed by other gods, and that “dead” or fallen gods are still worshipped fervently, just as before, because other deities adopt their followers, still grant spells, and so on - - so mortals may or may not know the true fate of the deity they worship. This MIGHT be one future for this specific priestess. Lurue (or any other deity, for that matter) could of course survive “unchanged,” or change in divine power but keep the same looks, portfolios, aims, and credos. Deities tend to shift subtly all the time in these things, however. And IF we are talking a century of time, that’s a lot of roleplaying (in terms of real-world duration). So for now, eiglos, roleplaying “life” for your priestess can be very much “business as usual.”
I personally would welcome the separation of, say, The Living Realms and the “history” RPGA play therein develops, from my own home campaign. If characters played in an RPGA adventure slay a wizard and blow up his tower, and I’m using both wizard and tower extensively in my home campaign, the potential conflict vanishes; the destruction won’t occur until the future (if mage and/or structure “go down” in my campaign, there’s plenty of in-Realms time for the one to be brought back to life somehow and the other rebuilt, to “explain away” the conflict).
A gamer can play in their own current campaign just as before, peek at eventual 4e Realms releases in hobby shops, at conventions, and via online discussion, and either decide never to go to 4e, or (if the new material at some point seems really exciting) “jump” the characters from one Realmsdate to the other by some magical means (even if it’s “caught in a portal for a century,” and I set just such weirdness up with some comments in SWORDS OF DRAGONFIRE that also “start to” explain the 2e to 3e “map changes” in the Realms without being too explicit, for those who didn’t make the change). Or, if a DM and player group collectively decide to move to the “new” Realms, they can even try to arrange cached treasure and PC breeding so as to “set up” descendants of their favourite characters as adventurers in the future Realms.
So, eiglos, your priestess can have a long and rewarding life and career, regardless.
However, this leads to another important point Zandilar raised: “If I run my campaign prior to the Year of Blue Fire, then I don't need the 4e products. Since I don't need them, I don't buy them. Since I don't buy them, WotC doesn't get my money. WotC doesn't get my money, and it is starting to look like a lot of the "old guard" are going down this path... So WotC starts to loose money, and eventually the line will get cut.”
This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make (because I personally value the ongoing development of a shared and unbroken imaginary Grand History of a fictional fantasy setting as something magnificent in itself, an achievement we should all continue to contribute to).
Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.
Zandilar is perfectly correct to post: “I've never ever had problems with a business wanting to make a profit. That is, after all, the purpose of a business. But what they're doing here is taking a HUGE risk with a known quantity. They're risking the entire Realms product line with this move, and they seem to have gone to great lengths to rub us old guard up the wrong way with the changes they're making. (Just my perception, I'm sure they haven't deliberately set out to slight us.)”
I don’t think anyone at Wizards set out to deliberately upset or slight anyone. I do think it has been decided to make these changes swiftly, and that very “brutal rapidity” is increasing some of the upset along with the “buzz.”
However, there’s no reason at all to move your own campaign if you don’t want to. IF there’s a hundred-year jump, that’s a LOT of time to roleplay through; most FR campaigns I hear about don’t cover more than ten to twelve years in the Realms unless they incorporate “down time” jumps of their own, before they “run down” and the folks involved start anew.
Yes, the Spellplague is going to shift the flavour of the Realms (if wizards are dying or their magic is going wild or failing, and priests are all upset, too, it follows that the “tone” of daily life and therefore of roleplaying will change a bit), but the Realms is a big place, and there’s no reason yet to suspect that “all civilization will fall.” Waterdeep, Silverymoon, Cormyr - - I don’t think a century will sweep any of them away. CHANGE them, yes, but they’re all changing constantly, anyway; we just usually live with the changes as they’re happening rather than seeing a “big jump-cut.” Nor is there any reason, based on what we’ve seen thus far, to believe that the Spellplague is a single big event, over in a short time; the very name implies something of longer duration, with almost certainly (if real-world “plagues” are anything to go by) varying results from place to place and person to person (this city or region largely unaffected, that wizard untouched, this one over here driven mad; that allows DMs plenty of “elbow room” to preserve the “heart locations” of a beloved campaign, and favourite PCs and NPCs, too; it’s “the rest of the Realms” where the BIG changes occur . . . something that a lot of DMs have already been doing for two decades, as they steer their own campaigns around events in the published Realms).
None of which means my arguments should be seen as quelling, denying, or belittling the personal anger and upset longtime Realms fans are feeling over this. Believe me, I know how you feel. :}
Neriandal Freit, your queries don’t come off as offensive, at all (and I’m glad you loved that little scene in EL’S DAUGHTER; one of my favourite moments, out of everything I’ve written). I hear you and I sympathize, deeply. (And yes, I’ll check out “Redeemers of Dawn,” and let you know; somebody please give THO a heads up when the new Compendium is released, okay?)
My answer begins: Although I know the Realms is intended as “a place to play,” and therefore should be something of a haven from the unpleasantnesses of real life, so we can hold on to elements in it we love and hold most precious, even in the Realms everything changes. I hate changing anything in the published Realms before I finish the (admittedly endless) task of detailing every corner of it (we still aren’t really off the first continent, are we?), but the alternative is static boredom . . . dust settling on statues in silence.
Everything changes; eventually, everyone (even deities, as they are conceived of in the Realms, with power tied to worshippers) dies. So with that said, my "answer direct" to you becomes another question: In real life, and in the Realms, do you NOT fall in love with someone, or befriend them, or work with them on something that interests you both and that you can both be proud of, because someday both of you will die?
I don’t think so. Despite yourself, even if you know we’re all rushing to oblivion, you do it anyway. In the end, that’s what “living” is all about.
We know we’re all doomed (as the song goes: “We’re here for a good time/Not a long time”), but we go ahead and love, laugh, climb mountains, read books, and fall in love with the Realms anyway. At least I did. :}
If it helps you decide, I intend to go on exploring the Realms, bringing us all more detail. Some of it in the “now” Realms, and some of it in the “new” Realms.
I strongly suspect the published Realms will shortly become “new Realms only” in terms of the time-setting of products - - and that many fans may step back from that new Realms. That’s an individual choice I certainly don’t want to try to (further than by setting forth my views here) influence for everyone. It’s going to have to be your call.
I hope you’ll join with Xysma and others in “clinging to the merest sliver of hope that Ed, Eric, and the rest can salvage what at first glance is going to be a nightmare for those of us who love the Realms so dearly,” and therefore at least give the new Realms a look.
I’m going to go right on exploring the Realms, and if that means finding some way to paint in bits of the “Lost Years” in the time-jump, I’ll try to find some way to do that. We MIGHT end up with a Realms of the novels that’s far “ahead in time” of where you or other gamers might be roleplaying, and therefore not conflicting much with your unfolding play. Lovely smell over here, steak sizzling over there, so to speak.
I KNOW it hurts when you’ve come to love and cherish a fictional place and characters, that you can enjoy in your imagination, and someone goes and stomps on what you hold precious. Yet what lies your imagination can be only be hurt if you let it be.
In the Realms, this has all happened before; the Mystra you loved that scene about is Mystra Number 2 (Number 3 if you count Mystryl). The Realms you love grew out of previous planet-shaking debacles. and you may come to like the post-Spellplague Realms.
Or not. I understand and respect both your love for the Realms, and that you feel the way you do right now.
Kuje expressed his dismay early on in this, and many other scribes have cried out between him and you; I understand and sympathize with all of your misgivings and raw emotions. I went through the same thing at a secret summit meeting at GenCon some years ago; believe me, heavy-hitter novelists and game designers who love the Realms have argued about this “change” over and over heatedly.
There’s always a strong streak in gamers and game designers of what I said onstage at the Killer Breakfast this year, when Tracy asked me what my character was going to do, and I replied: “Being a game designer, I go for the bright shiny object.” We always feel the lure of what’s exciting and new.
Yet I deliberately left the ever-busier city where I grew up (“home”) to go and live in the country, to try to cling to some of the good things of the past that were slipping away in the big city. So I’m going through this struggle, too. Lose Syluné? Hell, lose ALL the human NPCs I spent forty years bringing to life? This had BETTER be good!Wizards of the Coast obviously believes it will be. I’m going to do my best to help them make it so. I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . . .
So saith Ed.
love to all,
THO
-Exactly. It's a stupid thing, so instead of getting worked up over it, people (at least, I know I felt this way) was more or less unimpressed. A "whatever" moment, is probably the best way to describe it.
this is the prefered attitude i wish the rest of my country would follow. everything seems to get sensationalized that is marginal at best while truly moving and important news often gets conveniently lost in the shuffle cuz' paris hilton is going to jail. over abundance of mass media, lack of seeing the longview, and failure to note/fall in line w/ the intelligencia...
-I am a Conservative Jew. I was born this way, but was "converted" to Christianity by my zealous, fanatic Stepfather, who forced us all to attend church every Sunday. When I was older, I eventually threw it all away, returning to the religion I was most comfortable with.
got a few jewish gamer friends myself. nice guys overall. you have a good Passover, etc? as for me, my Easter was atypical today. service, family thing (meal, chit chat, dessert), food coma, long drive home. we do the family thing at my bro's (the party magi btw) house w/ his wife in Ambery Village here in Cincy. this is largely humorous as it is predominately jewish and we go there every Christmas and Easter, but it's cool. he even lives next to Temple Shalom too. went to a few services and had to study the Torah there for catechism, and the kicker of course is mom, see previous.
your conversion: i hate that. wasn't willing though, so just give dad the finger and find what's right for you. sorry for that indignity and intolerance. can't force religion on ppl, never works. well, not w/out jihads, inquisitions, ethnic cleansing, etc. late night news kinda' sums it up these days.
every Sunday/worship day; i've found alot (not all) of the ppl that attend like clockwork are the poorest xians, jews, muslims, buddhists i know. often quite judgemental and have an uncanny habbit of driving away new parishoners that we want/need when they're supposed to be evangelizing like all faiths and espousing that whole "good will" thing we keep hearing.
they're counting on that scorecard mentality in some pseudo points system which is a human conceit, not deific. i pull this argument alot in-game, "you're assigning human characteristics to something that isn't. arrogant and presumptuous to even consider He/She/It thinks like you."
granted there's leeway in that most FR gods are personifications and human-esque, but in monotheistic cultures IRL, yeah, things get distorted badly. but, i encourage creative expression for divine PCs. easiest to RP IMO.
sorry, rambling.
-That = Awesome!
it was once upon a time when 2nd ed was alive and well. man, i miss that. i mean, i prefer 3.5 and all, but i'm sentimental and get very nostalgic.
you know you're in good hands when you, your bro, you mutual friend and his stepdad (choir director), plus a handful of others play alot of FR and Dragonlance w/ church backing and $. ironically, jay's dad (choir guy) loved his LE align types, Raistlin in particular (i found out the hard way once).
-Yeah. Mystra, and Bane are both original WotC property, so they are off limits. Silvanus, the Celtic nature deity, is not off limits. Silvanus, the Faerûnian nature deity is off limits.
ah, thanks for clarification.
-Sad? You should be happy! If it weren't for this, we wouldn't be "sitting" here talking right now. There would have been no Forgotten Realms campaign setting. We might be playing Greyhawk, or Eberron.
i assumed he had control "back when" beyond creative/artistic consultant rights when it was going. apologies for this ignorance, i'm not very savvy w/ the business end, just his creation at large. i guess, like most things, you have to sell it to get corporate backing for R&D, publishing, printing, advertising, and distribution.
-Here is the entire quote:
-I highlighted the "relevant" parts.
wow...oh, and thanks btw.
this must be like raising a child and watching it become a drug addict or something and being impotent to stop it beyond saying, "no, don't!" it's not like there was seriously revolutionary designs and a massive overhauls during last editions, right? but, legally, they hold the cards, it's just their "new vision", is, uh, suspect IMO, to be polite.
-Sounds interesting.
even if you have no intent on playing RPG 'x', i've always found it fun to read the conceptual premise, primer, overview, etc. Shadowrun (big fan) is frightening to read. Vampire, CoC, Cyberpunk, etc., they're fun for me, to skim for ideas, if i don't play them too.
anyway, when 1st ed came out in '90, and i read their "projected future" (game chronology is/was 2050 AD), it seemed brilliant. now, 18 yrs later, it's scary to see how much is taking shape accurately in prophetic-like fashion. very good or very lucky writers/designers for FASA back then i guess. like TSR, it (game) changed hands too, but was relatively left mechanically sound.
long story short, the Awakening (2012) is the big catch in game. funny, we had all this tech and superior thinking right, but the Mayans, for all their primitive ways, still had a better calendar/time system while we still have leap years, daylight saving, etc. this reflects that. curious to live to see it IRL too.
-The chicken. If you wrote, "What came first, the chicken egg, of the chicken", then I would have said, "the chicken egg". After all, you did write, "the chicken" before "the chicken egg". ;)
OK, that's really taking things literally. :p
-But, seriously, the correct answer is the egg. Because of genetics, there is no reason why a chicken had to lay the egg that hatched the first chicken. Instead, a "proto-chicken" lays the egg, which hatches, and becomes the first chicken. Thus, the egg still comes first.
That seems about right.
-No, no you cannot. A few years ago, when I first started college, a Christian sect tried to copyright the concept of the Christian G-d. They were not able to.
*laughs* OK, that's a bit weird! I didn't hear about that.
That seems about right.
-Yup.
*laughs* OK, that's a bit weird! I didn't hear about that.
-It was some kind of Baptist church in the midwest, I believe.
Besides, on what grounds could they possibly claim ownership? If I were the Judge in that decision, I would not only disallow it, but would highly recommend phsychiatric help for all those involved!
The Bible, according to our laws, entered the 'public domain' a couple of thousand years ago.
And these were College Students, you say?
Besides, on what grounds could they possibly claim ownership?
-They don't, which is why their copyright claim was not granted. But, their arguments were that they used the concept, and that it was not copyrighted.