What's irked me:
Ranger getting spells
Detect Evil
Spell-casting system (it did work though)
Easy to get good stats/too high stats (4d6 and pick the three best!?)
Getting rid of spheres (and speciality priests) - Domains just didn't cut it
The thief dissapearing
The rogue and sorcerer (mage and thief was fine! Don't try fixing something if it's not broken!)
Getting rid of stat requirements for classes
Not completely fixing psionics (They were getting there though!)
Revolving door afterlife
Probably other things as well, just not got them penned/typed yet. As for FR specific things:
The Elven Crusade
Dracorage - because they should've released an adventure, not a novel, and made the PC's the heroes. Obviously, DM's can just not adhere to canon lore, but it would've been simpler that way.
Novels still being canon
Obould's kingdom
How the Return of the Archwizards was handled
Killing Halaster
The drift away from other settings such as Ravenloft
Things that surprisingly didn't irk me:
Shadow Weave - a lot of people don't like it, but i thought it was pretty good!
Return of the Archwizards - they had to return some day
i've forgotten a lot...
And sorry for not writing with capital "i." Missing the key, so using ctrl-v
• By offering both the Wizard and the Sorcerer the game satisfied two different camps of thought in regards to spell casters. DMs were not required to have both in their worlds.
• How you choose to roll your stats is up to you.
• The afterlife is only a revolving door if the DM lets it be that way.
• Getting rid of stat requirements was a good idea. It allows for characters who are not naturally talented to be a class anyway. There are plenty of of stories about people who do not have the natual attibutes of their chosen field succeeding by sheer dint of effort (read: gaining levels).
I will agree with you about psionics and I can see where you are coming from on ranger spells and clerics.
The biggest thing that needs fixing is trip and grapple.
Soo...things I don't like about 3e:
-the spell-casting system (I've turned to Spell-points)
-wizards being the supreme class overall the others save the cleric.
-fighters being so lame that they're only good for the 1-4 level dip
-the absurd amount of skills (glad they're combining the lot of them in 4e)
-rangers getting spells
-paladins spells based on Wis (should've been based on Cha)
-sorcerers having absoutly NO value (and no flavor until some Heritage feats came out. The Warlock from CA should've been the sorcerer)
-feats that no good player in they're right mind would choose no matter what class like Alertness, Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic.... the list goes on and on
-the way Items are crafted (i understand the xp thing, but it sucks....ALOT) and the fact that you have to be a super math-wiz to figure out the base price
FR specific problems I had:
-the elven retreat (how much more Tolken can you POSSIBLY get?)
-books are automatically canon
-the absurd amount of deities
-drifting away from Ravenloft (as Khaelieth said)
-regional feats no longer free (they are though in my campaigns, but only 1)
-the taking of things FR specific and making them core like Expedition to Undermountain and Drow of the Underdark
-statting lowly merchants and barkeeps (seriously...why?)
Things that didn't irk me:
-the Return of the Archwizards and Shades in general (I think they're cool, what can I say?)
-The elven crusade
-The time of troubles (actually holding Gods accountable is a good thing)
-Obould's Kingdom (finally something interesting in The North)
-Chosen of Mystra and High NPCs in genaral (if you don't like them, don't use them, simple)
-Drizzt (he's the first reason I read DnD novels and FR specifically)
Theres probably more, but i'm tired and need sleep.
Thought i'd make a thread to bash 3rd ed a bit! This can include things that have run through from 1st ed, like the spellcasting system.
What's irked me:
Ranger getting spells
Detect Evil
Spell-casting system (it did work though)
Easy to get good stats/too high stats (4d6 and pick the three best!?)
Getting rid of spheres (and speciality priests) - Domains just didn't cut it
The thief dissapearing
The rogue and sorcerer (mage and thief was fine! Don't try fixing something if it's not broken!)
Getting rid of stat requirements for classes
Not completely fixing psionics (They were getting there though!)
Revolving door afterlife
Probably other things as well, just not got them penned/typed yet. As for FR specific things:
The Elven Crusade
Dracorage - because they should've released an adventure, not a novel, and made the PC's the heroes. Obviously, DM's can just not adhere to canon lore, but it would've been simpler that way.
Novels still being canon
Obould's kingdom
How the Return of the Archwizards was handled
Killing Halaster
The drift away from other settings such as Ravenloft
Things that surprisingly didn't irk me:
Shadow Weave - a lot of people don't like it, but i thought it was pretty good!
Return of the Archwizards - they had to return some day
i've forgotten a lot...
And sorry for not writing with capital "i." Missing the key, so using ctrl-v
To each his or her own....
But what you have listed about 3.5 in general never bothered me. I mean my group has always...and will continue rolling 4d6 and drop the lowest die even if we convert to 4th.
A rogue is a thief or so many other types of character depending on how you make it...I just see no reason why it should be so pigoenhold into a name. I also like the name wizard over the name mage. But like I said to each his or her own.
But I agree with you entirely on what they did with the Realms except the Return of the Archwizards I didn't think had to happen...and the Shadow Weave was badly handled...but could be used it just needed to be reworked.
The only flaws I really saw coming was in the last the last year when it became obvious that the designers put things out there and either just didn't care or did it on purpose to make 3.x look bad for when 4th edition came out...
As for 3E FR setting changes? I've spoken extensively about those elsewhere.
As to FR specific things... eh. Shade doesn't bother me that much now, because the PCs already knocked it out of the sky and sent it crashing to the ground.
The only flaws I really saw coming was in the last the last year when it became obvious that the designers put things out there and either just didn't care or did it on purpose to make 3.x look bad for when 4th edition came out...
-Do you really think that second point happened?
• If you want to play a thief then it's simple. Steal stuff. It's that simple. Doesn't matter how you do it, just so long as you are taking someone else's stuff you are being a thief. If you want your rogue to be an archtypical thief then you can make him so. The thief didn't disappear. He's there if you want him.
• By offering both the Wizard and the Sorcerer the game satisfied two different camps of thought in regards to spell casters. DMs were not required to have both in their worlds.
• How you choose to roll your stats is up to you.
• The afterlife is only a revolving door if the DM lets it be that way.
• Getting rid of stat requirements was a good idea. It allows for characters who are not naturally talented to be a class anyway. There are plenty of of stories about people who do not have the natual attibutes of their chosen field succeeding by sheer dint of effort (read: gaining levels).
I will agree with you about psionics and I can see where you are coming from on ranger spells and clerics.
The biggest thing that needs fixing is trip and grapple.
The thief was still able to deal insane amounts of damage. Said it before, saying it again: Bilbo didn't stab Gollum and take the ring, he outwitted him. The rogue's sneak attack's just... No. it's for assassins, not for cat-burglars or con-artists. Can still play your character as a thief, but you'll have the possibility to do massive amounts of damage when you need it.
The mage/sorcerer/wizard thing was just unecessary, didn't need both. Sorcerer wasn't as good anyway.
As for the stats; having 16 str was just not as good anymore. You just didn't feel as awesome in 3rd ed.
Revolving Door Afterlife - Well, the rules encouraged it. 2nd ed just wasn't as bad for it. Obviously, i houseruled it, but the rules were still there.
Stat requirements; Take paladins for example. They were supposed to be almost superhuman. They're the Church's elite warriors. Didn't make sense that they had lowish stats. Also, they could ensure that players didn't put a lot in constitution for wizards/sorcerers, which makes them a lot tougher.
-feats that no good player in they're right mind would choose no matter what class like Alertness, Acrobatic, Agile, Athletic.... the list goes on and on
-the way Items are crafted (i understand the xp thing, but it sucks....ALOT) and the fact that you have to be a super math-wiz to figure out the base price
-the elven retreat (how much more Tolken can you POSSIBLY get?)
-the taking of things FR specific and making them core like Expedition to Undermountain and Drow of the Underdark
The feats i agree with, but i sorta liked 'em. They were nice for RP. item crafting i really liked though, there were a few flaws, but the maths was pretty easy. i could do it when i was 13 (or 14).
The Elven Retreat i liked, but it got ended in 3rd ed. Thought that was cool!
Also, not publishing enough regional books - even just updates of 2nd ed. Should never have made those books core.
-Do you really think that second point happened?
The last few years has been a test of 4E stuff. TOB was the biggest test. When I saw everyone (new and old players) love the book I was pretty amazed. Up until a year and a half ago I was a core only guy. I saw that book then became a fun only guy.:D Anyway I think alot of interesting things came out the last 2 years which is why the news of 4e irked me in the beginning. Now I am over it.
The last few years has been a test of 4E stuff. TOB was the biggest test. When I saw everyone (new and old players) love the book I was pretty amazed. Up until a year and a half ago I was a core only guy. I saw that book then became a fun only guy.:D Anyway I think alot of interesting things came out the last 2 years which is why the news of 4e irked me in the beginning. Now I am over it.
-That isn't what I was asking, though. Producing "3.75e" books at the end of the 3e run isn't purposely making bad products, to make 4e more appealing.
-the taking of things FR specific and making them core like Expedition to Undermountain and Drow of the Underdark
Ah, the irony. An FR fan complaining about other settings using Drow.
LA system
spell-casting system
psionics=magic
tough there are thousands of rules, feats, su/ex abilities, a lot of them are very similar and unoriginal, and the way how to acquire them is not flexible at all
culture or race or organizations don't have much influence on rules
alignment is too important
some skills like Knowledge
ranger, paladin and spells
unoriginality of sorcerer
barbarian and bard as classes
other: hit points, armor, at least there's Unearthed Arcana
FR
gods cover everything, other ideologies are left out
Syphillis (sp?) empire (location)
return of Bane/...
Shades, nothing subtle, Shar also
too much useless stats overall
if there was fluff it was mostly copied from 2E, with less quality to make room for stats
number of drow novels
Anauroch adventure, lmao, don't know where to start, ruined years of good work
Zhentarim changes
Ah, the irony. An FR fan complaining about other settings using Drow.
I have no problem with other settings using drow. Drow should probably be in every setting (save DL), but I am under the impression that the Underdark was FR specific as was Undermountain. If the names had been say Lords of Deceit: A Book of the Drow I wouldn't have a problem one bit.
Designers
By way of explanation:
When I posted a comment over at CK about how you can't walk three feet in the Realms without tripping over some ruins, I got this response from the person who handles ALL of Ed's queries over at CK -
Bingo! That's exactly how it should be; that's the feel Ed has striven for, from the beginning of the Realms. Even in bustling Waterdeep, go down into some shop or house cellars, and you can see the roots of earlier buildings, and elder streets . . .
love,
THO
Not 'bringing back those civilizations'. Time marches on in the Realms, and the current team seems to be lacking in the ability to come up with anything original, so they just bring back stuff that others have mentioned as having happened in the past.
Netheril, Imaskar, Miyeritar, and now it looks like maybe Jaamdath... the guys who created those things things didn't plan on them returning - they are supposed to be ancient RUINED civilizations to provide a backdrop for the wonderful stories we tell in the Realms with our games.
The Designers/Authors constant competition to 'one-up' each other has left history in the Realms a complete mess, IMHO.
And THAT, is the only flaw I have ever seen in the Realms.
P.S. - well...... maybe Maztica too....
Thought i'd make a thread to bash 3rd ed a bit! This can include things that have run through from 1st ed, like the spellcasting system.
What's irked me:
Ranger getting spells
Detect Evil
Spell-casting system (it did work though)
Easy to get good stats/too high stats (4d6 and pick the three best!?)
Getting rid of spheres (and speciality priests) - Domains just didn't cut it
The thief dissapearing
The rogue and sorcerer (mage and thief was fine! Don't try fixing something if it's not broken!)
Getting rid of stat requirements for classes
Not completely fixing psionics (They were getting there though!)
Revolving door afterlife
Mind if I comment?
- Rangers and spells: they always had them. Well, since AD&D, which is the first edition I had books from. You're somewhat right in that in 3rd edition they got them quite early - I mean it's one thing if a grizzled ranger of over 10 years of experience can speak to animals, but another when a 17-year old youth can pick up a wand of CMW and start using it like he's born with it.
- Detect evil: likewise, not something that came with 3rd edition. A bit more on the mechanics, however, would be useful.
- spellcasting and stat generation: Likewise I don't think they changed that radically... unless you count spontaneous spellcasting. Well, it made more sense than the Vancian stuff.
- Thief and mage: rogue, thief... not much of a difference. As for sorcerers, I liked them, but I'd loved it if they got a somewhat different set of abilities. I mean, nothing except for spells for 20 levels is a bit boring.
- Stat requirements: kinda. I wasn't a very big fan of those, to be honest - though they could work for PrCs isntead of some of the more idiotic feat reqs.
- Fixing psionics: 3.5 has done a fairly good job imo. I like psionics.
- Afterlife thing: 1 level isn't that little... apart from that imo it's more of a DM thing.
As for the other things, I can agree with some, but I liked the dracorage end just as it was. I can live with something happening regardless of what my PCs did, though imo it shouldn't be too much work making an adventure out of it. The most important thing is that dragons are no longer nerfed and can play the important role they are supposed to - back on top of the literal and metaphorical food chain.
Was basically things i meant could've been handled better and/or didn't get fixed from AD&D to 3rd ed. =)
-Do you really think that second point happened?
Personaly I think it was more of they were basicaly more focused on 4th edition then what was going out currently, but probably there was some of the second involved to a point. I mean how else to you explain PrCs like Planar Shepard(from Eberron), or Abjurant Champion. I mean either we assume they did it on purpose or are just incompentent. If they are incompetent then this doesn't really bode well for 4th edition.
Also the Book of Nine cheeses( I mean swords) was probably going to fix fighters...instead we got a rushed job to playtest concepts for 4th edition. I would pay alot of money to see what the orginal content for that book was suppose to be.
It definitly seemed like 4th edition has taken priority over 3.5 in the last two years though...
Personaly I think it was more of they were basicaly more focused on 4th edition then what was going out currently, but probably there was some of the second involved to a point. I mean how else to you explain PrCs like Planar Shepard(from Eberron), or Abjurant Champion. I mean either we assume they did it on purpose or are just incompentent. If they are incompetent then this doesn't really bode well for 4th edition.
Also the Book of Nine cheeses( I mean swords) was probably going to fix fighters...instead we got a rushed job to playtest concepts for 4th edition. I would pay alot of money to see what the orginal content for that book was suppose to be.
It definitly seemed like 4th edition has taken priority over 3.5 in the last two years though...
1st- The Bo9S is a fun and good book that brought alive melee type characters and made them actually fun to play for once. Nothing cheese about it. Or rather, no more cheese than what any spellcaster might be able to do.
2nd- What's wrong with the Abjurant Champion? From what I see, it's actually a good PrC in a sea of REALLY crappy PrCs they've released since 3e came out.
I mean how else to you explain PrCs like Planar Shepard(from Eberron), or Abjurant Champion. I mean either we assume they did it on purpose or are just incompentent. If they are incompetent then this doesn't really bode well for 4th edition.
-Neither rings a bell. What's so bad about them?
Also the Book of Nine cheeses( I mean swords) was probably going to fix fighters...instead we got a rushed job to playtest concepts for 4th edition. I would pay alot of money to see what the orginal content for that book was suppose to be.
-This book gets so many mixed reviews. For every person that hated it, another person raves about it. It's a 3e book that I don't have, but probably will pick up, to integrate into my games. What, specifically, about it is so bad, in your estimation?
It definitly seemed like 4th edition has taken priority over 3.5 in the last two years though...
-That, I can agree with.
1st- The Bo9S is a fun and good book that brought alive melee type characters and made them actually fun to play for once. Nothing cheese about it. Or rather, no more cheese than what any spellcaster might be able to do.
I explain my problems with this book in the post in response to Lord Karsus.
2nd- What's wrong with the Abjurant Champion? From what I see, it's actually a good PrC in a sea of REALLY crappy PrCs they've released since 3e came out.
Abjurant Champion is a perfect example of power creep and a PrC that is very easy(at the cost of a feat for non-elves or for elves it is just a matter of getting the BaB) for non-fighter wizards to take to get alot of benfits(of just a higher HD and BaB not to mention alot of useful abilities). In other words it should probably have had stricter prerequistes for the intended purpose of giving fighter who dabble into magic a PrC. Instead we have a class the a wizard or a sorcerer can almost take as a no brainer. What you call a 'sea of REALLY crappy PrCs' I would probably call a sea of REALLY balanced or flavorful PrCs. Maybe I just build characters differently but I pick a PrC mostly just for concept and don't care too much about the power level.
-Neither rings a bell. What's so bad about them?
See above as to why I don't think Abjurant Champion(by the way find in Complete Mage) is a well designed PrC.
As for the Planar Shepard...3 wishes a day by 7th or 8th level...and it just gets worse from there I think is a very badly designed PrC.
-This book gets so many mixed reviews. For every person that hated it, another person raves about it. It's a 3e book that I don't have, but probably will pick up, to integrate into my games. What, specifically, about it is so bad, in your estimation?
1) Even the designers admit it wasn't very much playtested. And from about 90% of the people I hear from who do like it admitt it not designed as nearly well as others.
2) I probably wouldn't hasve as many issues with the idea of mystical swordsmen class if it didn't have three classes of them. In other words if they just had done one of them( the sword sage) I would be happier.
3) Personaly I find the maneuvers to be...dull. I have had alot more fun playing mellee characters without this anime style.
4) If your intended purpose in allowing it in your game is to give non-casters something to do...it will fail because this book merely turns them into casters.
I mnean I like some of the concepts in the book I just think it was very badly excuted. And it by no means fixed fighters
Comp-game comapanies do that all the time, or at least used to. Thats why I always waited for the 'Gold' or 'Platinum' addition - the one with all the patches to make the game playable (plus, you get it cheaper that way). :D
If I'm going to be someone's playtester, they'd better damn well pay me for it.
The company I used to work for (FGU) paid me in miniatures.
As for the Planar Shepard...3 wishes a day by 7th or 8th level...and it just gets worse from there I think is a very badly designed PrC.
-What!?
1) Even the designers admit it wasn't very much playtested. And from about 90% of the people I hear from who do like it admitt it not designed as nearly well as others.
You must have been talking to a whole other set of people. I'd say as much as 90% of the people I've talked to here are in favor of it. I'd rather the new classes were subsumed in the old ones, but I can certainly consider it servicable.
You must have been talking to a whole other set of people. I'd say as much as 90% of the people I've talked to here are in favor of it. I'd rather the new classes were subsumed in the old ones, but I can certainly consider it servicable.
*Shrug* We are probably talking about a whole different group of people it happens...but the system definitly had a whole lot more bugs in it then other things in 3.x...also just the fact that I like playing melleee characters and never got a inferiority complex about it to the point of just turning them into spellcasters just bever made sense to me.
Was that the "polymorph into an outsider from your native plane with all their Su and Sp abilities," or am I missing something else? I don't have FoE.
That is pretty much it...you can become a effreeti and though a feat I believe get the wishes. Also means you don't have to spend the exp for it.
The Bo9S doesn't break anything either, it was however, very poorly presented. It drew a bit too much from the anime/wuxia style than the standard D&D book and that automatically draws the fanatic ire of a portion of the fan base. It also didn't help that it provided three base classes to compete with regular martial classes. It does provide one thing I feel is a major improvement over regular martial classes, it offered some limited resources to manage. I think that keeps things interesting. I feel most of the feats offered to fighter types are a bit too static to make them very interesting on a long term basis, at least not in the same way casters are interesting. Bo9S was not the way I would have imagined WotC going about it. Maybe it's just me, but I like even warrior types in D&D to have a bit of a pseudo-magical edge, especially at higher levels. It's a magical world, adapt or die.
I think by the time a full caster can actually take Abjurant Champion, the PrC abilities and class basics are of dubious use to them. To the point that spells can duplicate most of those affects and the ones it can't, such as the final capstone ability, a wizard doesn't really need anyway.
11th level getting a jump in BAB and a 5d10 hit point is nice. Though you are right it probably is worth taking the 5th level...but the other abilities are nice for any wizard. All it needed to fit the roll it wanted was just a minor change to the prerequiste and that is all martial weapon prof. Not just one.
Isn't ground breaking powerful?...not really. Does it fulfill it roll it is written for?...not really. Hence it is badly designed. Heck the guy who wrote couldn't even be bother to look up a spell to see what school it was in.(and neither did the editors). Abjurant Champuion was just laziness in my opinion. Hopefuly for D&D sake they are paying more attention to 4th is all I am saying.
The Bo9S doesn't break anything either, it was however, very poorly presented. It drew a bit too much from the anime/wuxia style than the standard D&D book and that automatically draws the fanatic ire of a portion of the fan base. It also didn't help that it provided three base classes to compete with regular martial classes. It does provide one thing I feel is a major improvement over regular martial classes, it offered some limited resources to manage. I think that keeps things interesting. I feel most of the feats offered to fighter types are a bit too static to make them very interesting on a long term basis, at least not in the same way casters are interesting. Bo9S was not the way I would have imagined WotC going about it. Maybe it's just me, but I like even warrior types in D&D to have a bit of a pseudo-magical edge, especially at higher levels. It's a magical world, adapt or die.
I agree with the geneal idea behind the book...but instead of coming up with what they did I would rather have seen it done though feats and PrCs for fighters.
I mean take the Lasher for instance...it takes a poor weapon and makes it work...it has intweresting things a fighter can do...and at high levels you get the pseudo-magical edge that you are talking about. I would have liked to see more things like that then what we got...super fighters on crack. Heck like I said I like the Sword Sage and even the system with some tweaking is useable...but I really didn't need the Warblade or the Divine Crusader(?)...I needed more PrCs like the Lasher, more tactical feats, more fighter only feats, more style feats, etc. But I think if they did it one of their rallying cries around 4th edition of "we need to balance the classes" starts to sound pretty much empty.
To the author's credit, he didn't actually say the ability worked with all those spells he listed, just that Abjurant Champions uses them in conjunction along with their class ability so they don't have to wear armor for their defense.
I'm waiting for the never-to-arrive, never-to-be-published Complete Warrior II to offer those options you suggested in place of Bo9S.
I actually started an outline for a Fighters style novel based on the Lasher PrC. (Not that I'm some sort of author or anything, I just like pretending to be.)
Agreed it could have used a slightly more difficult entry requirement. All martial weapon proficiencies would have made the point clear that it was for fighter/mage types. These sorts of misses happen in D&D books all the time, I am under no impression that 4E will improve, in fact I feel it will probably get worse since they have the DDI to fix things, the actual published book might get lazier in editing.
To the author's credit, he didn't actually say the ability worked with all those spells he listed, just that Abjurant Champions uses them in conjunction along with their class ability so they don't have to wear armor for their defense.
Agreed though the one thing I hoping 4th edition will do is alot more proffesional attitude to editing...but that is a longshot ;)
I'm waiting for the never-to-arrive, never-to-be-published Complete Warrior II to offer those options you suggested in place of Bo9S.
You and me both...though I am already working on stuff for that.
I actually started an outline for a Fighters style novel based on the Lasher PrC. (Not that I'm some sort of author or anything, I just like pretending to be.)
One of my favorite character was a Rogue/Fighter/Lasher/Dervish. If you want a amature opinion on the story I'll be glad to give it...
One of my favorite character was a Rogue/Fighter/Lasher/Dervish. If you want a amature opinion on the story I'll be glad to give it...
Maybe if/when I ever finish it. I only do it for fun and there really are lots of real life things I should be doing. I'm actually working on a (non-parody) story I call "Shadowcrap" right now, inspired by the overabundance of shadow concepts in FR and D&D. I thank these boards for the story nickname.
Comp-game comapanies do that all the time, or at least used to. Thats why I always waited for the 'Gold' or 'Platinum' addition - the one with all the patches to make the game playable (plus, you get it cheaper that way). :D
Well, to be fair Bioware lets anyone update their game with the push of a button. It isn't always hard.
Maybe if/when I ever finish it. I only do it for fun and there really are lots of real life things I should be doing. I'm actually working on a (non-parody) story I call "Shadowcrap" right now, inspired by the overabundance of shadow concepts in FR and D&D. I thank these boards for the story nickname.
LOL!
Maybe I just build characters differently but I pick a PrC mostly just for concept and don't care too much about the power level.
Concepts can be taken from a WIDE variety of classes/PrC's. For example, take the crappy Bear Warrior from Compele Warrior source book. IMO, this class really doesn't offer anything worth of value mechanics wise. Could you instead do a barbarian/druid hybrid with emphasis on using your wild shape class features on bears? From my POV, its how you role play your character that give him a personality, not his choice in a specific or concept only prestige class.
Personaly I find the maneuvers to be...dull. I have had alot more fun playing mellee characters without this anime style.
Anime.....seriously? You use that word to define the classes and abilities in the Tome of Battle, yet I have to wonder what you call characters who fly, reverse gravity, stop time, and throw fireballs with the bat of an eye. I'm pretty sure I saw all of those things happen in a Dragon Ball Z episode.
Maybe if/when I ever finish it. I only do it for fun and there really are lots of real life things I should be doing. I'm actually working on a (non-parody) story I call "Shadowcrap" right now, inspired by the overabundance of shadow concepts in FR and D&D. I thank these boards for the story nickname.
Ah, but 'dragons' are also terribly overabundant. Name your book Dragonshadow. Get 'em both at once!
As much as I loved the Scarred Lands setting, it seemed like every other thing was either Blood or Shadow-related. It was like Clive Barker made a campaign setting...
Concepts can be taken from a WIDE variety of classes/PrC's. For example, take the crappy Bear Warrior from Compele Warrior source book. IMO, this class really doesn't offer anything worth of value mechanics wise. Could you instead do a barbarian/druid hybrid with emphasis on using your wild shape class features on bears? From my POV, its how you role play your character that give him a personality, not his choice in a specific or concept only prestige class.
Sure but when the mechanics support your concept so much the better. Bear warrior definitly has a strong viking feeling to it. Sure you can build a druid/ barbarian who can sorta to do the same thing...but never felt right to me.
Which is my one complaint about 4th is I don't like the flavor the mechanics are being set up to support..
Anime.....seriously? You use that word to define the classes and abilities in the Tome of Battle, yet I have to wonder what you call characters who fly, reverse gravity, stop time, and throw fireballs with the bat of an eye. I'm pretty sure I saw all of those things happen in a Dragon Ball Z episode.
I don't know how many people in fantasy that isn't anime run around with powers(also the idea of powers is very animish like) called things like Swooping Dragon Strike, Leaping Dragon Stance, or Step of the Dancing Moth. I am surprised Exalted didn't sue.
Also in anime a fireball would probably be called Fire of the 'Fire Dragon Soul Ball of Fire' or something like that. Instead of something simple and accurate like fireball.
One of things that 4th edition is doing is removing the animish style naming convention from these things.
Also I wouldn't know I don't watch Dragon ball Z
Ah, but 'dragons' are also terribly overabundant. Name your book Dragonshadow. Get 'em both at once!
-Dragonshadow the Shadow Dragon Shadow Adept.
@ Khaelieth: Why don't you let your players use Weapon Style feats like High Sword/Low Axe? Do you even let them use tactical feats?
No, i found them distasteful, and aside from the metagamers, everyone in my group agreed with me. But it's obviously a subjective thing=)
-Dragonshadow the Shadow Dragon Shadow Adept.
Dragonshadow, the Half-Shadow Dragon Shadow-template Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept / Shadow Adept / Shadowcraft Mage.
Chosen of Falazure, the Night Dragon
Dragonshadow, the Half-Shadow Dragon Shadow-template Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept / Shadow Adept / Shadowcraft Mage.
Chosen of Falazure, the Night Dragon
-Excellent.
Unless some DM allowed their characters to play a drow ninja pirate.
FTW!!!
I thank these boards for the story nickname.
Your welcome. :D
Of course, I named it Shadowcr@p, just to be more 'Internetty'. :P
Just put "Drow" in front of that, and it's perfect. ;)
-Heh, there are those Half-Drow, Half-Shadow Dragons, the Chassuein (Sp?). They'd be perfect.
Just put "Drow" in front of that, and it's perfect. ;)
FTW!!!
Your welcome. :D
Of course, I named it Shadowcr@p, just to be more 'Internetty'. :P
54d0\/\/cr@p
So, people didn't like the focus on shadow and dragon themed things either. i thought they made dragons less special tbh. But "The Realms might still fall under the Shadow..."
Poisons and diseases! Hated the system; why a barbarian has a better immune system than a wizard is beyond me!
Also, the money system annoys me to no end; me and a player eventually sat round the table to work something out. We ended up with 9 different coins and a system that works! i mean, if me (20 years old) and my brother, who's 16, could work it out, you'd imagine WotC could work it out!
Poisons, however - meh. I miss poisons that did a reliable, quick HP drain rather than constitution decrease.
I dunno, the disease system imo works okay. I've heard of people living in extreme conditions that do seem more resistant to diseases, and wizards aren't particularly well-known for their physical stamina.
Poisons, however - meh. I miss poisons that did a reliable, quick HP drain rather than constitution decrease.
Fair enough, but then again other classes tend to have higher constitution. Thought diseases should get a lower DC and you get resistance to diseases like you do in the RW. Say, +2, then +4, then +6 after a succesfull save. Unless it's something really contagious, like the Black Death or something. Also, certain diseases shouldn't allow a save (You can probably guess which).
As for poisons; i thought a higher stat drain in general would've been good, as it takes longer to recover, probably. Means you can't just cast Cure X Wounds to heal it, you need Cure Poison, which is slightly less inaccesible. Also, some poisons take longer to work (but i think i saw some slower working ones).
Constitution is KEY when trying to shrug off the effects of anything physical, and thats something Mages lack.
Talona worshippers (or clerics/druids/adepts) should get some divine blessing - being asymptomatic or something.
As for poisons; i thought a higher stat drain in general would've been good, as it takes longer to recover, probably. Means you can't just cast Cure X Wounds to heal it, you need Cure Poison, which is slightly less inaccesible. Also, some poisons take longer to work (but i think i saw some slower working ones).
Poisons coming and going in 60 seconds was always an awkward fit for me. I'd rather have them continue doing damage, at much smaller increments, for an extended duration. Up the DCs significantly as well.
Some sort of scaling duration progression, where the person has to make a save a round later, then a minute later, then 10 minutes later, then an hour later, etc. might fit better than a purely linear progression.
Forgot something important!
Poisons and diseases! Hated the system; why a barbarian has a better immune system than a wizard is beyond me!
I think the idea is that barbarians are supposed to be exceptionally hardy.
They are warriors of the wilderness and survivalists.Some sort of scaling duration progression, where the person has to make a save a round later, then a minute later, then 10 minutes later, then an hour later, etc. might fit better than a purely linear progression.
-Don't forget, though, the more realism you inject into the rules, the more bulky things become.
I think the idea is that barbarians are supposed to be exceptionally hardy.
I can understand barbarians being able to withstand more damage, run for longer periods of time, weather fatigue and exhaustion better etc etc... But your immune system's very little to do with that. A normal, healthy person, such as wizard (unless he's just unwell), shouldn't have any more trouble than a muscle-packed barbarian kicking a common cold, or withstand snake venom. But as your constitution reflects your health, i'd just say that Fortitude saves didn't apply to poisons, you got a constitution save instead. Also, like Soltares said, very few toxins drop you within a minute; "normal" animal toxins drop you from half an hour to a day or two later, not one minute later, and they get gradually worse, unless your body manages to break down the poison.
LK, having poisons work at 1 round, 1 minute, half hour and then every hour isn't overly complicated.
LK, having poisons work at 1 round, 1 minute, half hour and then every hour isn't overly complicated.
-But, when you start factoring in the idea that, over time, the poison weakens, making it's effects weaker, and it easier to overcome, tacked on with all of the other checks and DCs and what not, it becomes more burdensome than anything. Who wants to be rolling every five minutes, or whatever it is?
I can understand barbarians being able to withstand more damage, run for longer periods of time, weather fatigue and exhaustion better etc etc... But your immune system's very little to do with that. A normal, healthy person, such as wizard (unless he's just unwell), shouldn't have any more trouble than a muscle-packed barbarian kicking a common cold, or withstand snake venom.
Good point. Although, I always hear (IRL) that being physically healthy and active does help keep one's immune system strong.
That's not to say that it will protect someone from lethal poison, although then we're getting into whether or not the rules are "realistic" in the first. They aren't.
But i definitely see where you're coming from! One of the Georges of Britain was taking arsenic as medicine (he was insane, had some porphyric disorders) and developed a resistance to it.
George III?
Good point. Although, I always hear (IRL) that being physically healthy and active does help keep one's immune system strong.
That's not to say that it will protect someone from lethal poison, although then we're getting into whether or not the rules are "realistic" in the first. They aren't.
George III?
Yeah, being physically active helps a lot - there's a definite connection. Personally not been sick more than twice in 6 years; caught the flu and an antibiotic resistant whooping coughs strain.
But yeah, lethal poison's gonna kill you regardless, but that'd be horribly boring in D&D! Can't use ricin (1 gram's enough to kill 1 million humans. Was handling it this summer=P ).
Yeah, probably.
LK, how poisons work atm doesn't really work that well. Reckon Soltares' and my system's better personally.
LK, how poisons work atm doesn't really work that well. Reckon Soltares' and my system's better personally.
-Probably. I rarely use poisons in my campaigns, so I really wouldn't know. I'm just interjecting that, to make things as realistic and lifelike as possible, there are going to be a lot of variables, a lot of fluctuating DCs, and all of that. That kind of stuff can really hang up a game, especially, if rolls need to be made often.
-Probably. I rarely use poisons in my campaigns, so I really wouldn't know. I'm just interjecting that, to make things as realistic and lifelike as possible, there are going to be a lot of variables, a lot of fluctuating DCs, and all of that. That kind of stuff can really hang up a game, especially, if rolls need to be made often.
i can agree with that, but poisoning a barbarian's too damn hard - which it shouldn't be. But one would presume poison's not used too much, so you could use it sparingly and therefore less/same dice rolling, but more dangerous as it can very easily kill you.
Hmmm... Say you manage to keep some of the poison used, you should be able to identify it and find an antidote (if it's available).
Poisons and diseases! Hated the system; why a barbarian has a better immune system than a wizard is beyond me!
I realize you have came up with a system for poisons and diseases that works for and that is great, but a person more physicaly fit can fight off diseases and poisons better...that is just the way it works.
I mean do deal with it realisticaly they would have to publish a book each for all the poisonbs and siseases out there. Not to mention the made up ones. For what it was I think the poisons system worked fine. The disease system needed some work though.
Also, the money system annoys me to no end; me and a player eventually sat round the table to work something out. We ended up with 9 different coins and a system that works! i mean, if me (20 years old) and my brother, who's 16, could work it out, you'd imagine WotC could work it out!
Um...9 different coins? I don't know how that works better? But again I am happy to hear you adapted a system you and your players can work with, but again just want to point out no economical system truely works...I mean fuedalism doesn't work yet Europe had it for hundred's of years...I think L5R had it the best when they plainly stated the economics of Roukgan just don't work it isn't suppose to...
I realize you have came up with a system for poisons and diseases that works for and that is great, but a person more physicaly fit can fight off diseases and poisons better...that is just the way it works.
I mean do deal with it realisticaly they would have to publish a book each for all the poisonbs and siseases out there. Not to mention the made up ones. For what it was I think the poisons system worked fine. The disease system needed some work though.
Um...9 different coins? I don't know how that works better? But again I am happy to hear you adapted a system you and your players can work with, but again just want to point out no economical system truely works...I mean fuedalism doesn't work yet Europe had it for hundred's of years...I think L5R had it the best when they plainly stated the economics of Roukgan just don't work it isn't suppose to...
Just pointing out that unless you're immunodepressed (aids, drugs, depressed etc) and your healthy, which is the bulk of the human population, it doesn't make much difference. A large, strong fellow who's been a lumberjack (commoner) for all his life isn't any more likely to shrug off a disease than a normal, healthy wizard.
The reason for 9 different coins was buying a horse. Lugging around 200 coins isn't just impractical, it's silly. Basically, we made a system that goes up to 100gp coins and removed platinum coins.
But yeah, lethal poison's gonna kill you regardless, but that'd be horribly boring in D&D! Can't use ricin (1 gram's enough to kill 1 million humans. Was handling it this summer=P ).
Sounds like you have quite an interesting job!
Anyway, yeah, poison that's so lethal that it kills PCs instantly wouldn't be much fun unless it's used in, umm, "very light doses", gamewise--if at all.
Sounds like you have quite an interesting job!
Anyway, yeah, poison that's so lethal that it kills PCs instantly wouldn't be much fun unless it's used in, umm, "very light doses", gamewise--if at all.
Was working as a lab assistant in a cancer research institute. Handling radioactive stuffs was tedious as f_ck.
Agreed, poisons that killed regardless's boring.
Was working as a lab assistant in a cancer research institute. Handling radioactive stuffs was tedious as f_ck.
But the fact that you do it is impressive--and probably gives you some interesting tales to tell.
But the fact that you do it is impressive--and probably gives you some interesting tales to tell.
When i used 10 times as much ethydium bromide as i should've, it was a bit amusing, and very dangerous! The stuff's used to make DNA go fluorescent! Eventually, we put it inside 3 boxes, two bags and another box and then had it incinerated along with radioactive waste. Was a laugh working there, as it was only a summer job (which i'm applying for again now) and as long as i got the stuff i was supposed to do done, didn't matter when i came/went!
When i used 10 times as much ethydium bromide as i should've, it was a bit amusing, and very dangerous! The stuff's used to make DNA go fluorescent! Eventually, we put it inside 3 boxes, two bags and another box and then had it incinerated along with radioactive waste. Was a laugh working there, as it was only a summer job (which i'm applying for again now) and as long as i got the stuff i was supposed to do done, didn't matter when i came/went!
*laughs* Well, I hope you get the job again.
Also, the introduction of miniatures. Completely unnecessary! (sp?)
-3e didn't do that. Miniatures existed before 3e. If the 3e rules made miniatures mandatory, then I'd agree...But, they didn't.
Just pointing out that unless you're immunodepressed (aids, drugs, depressed etc) and your healthy, which is the bulk of the human population, it doesn't make much difference. A large, strong fellow who's been a lumberjack (commoner) for all his life isn't any more likely to shrug off a disease than a normal, healthy wizard.
Yet a lumberjack would probably be healthier then the wizard who does spend lots of time studying wouldn't he?
The reason for 9 different coins was buying a horse. Lugging around 200 coins isn't just impractical, it's silly. Basically, we made a system that goes up to 100gp coins and removed platinum coins.
Well yes that was a problem with all coin based money systems...but a more natural step would be the development of tradebars and/or bank notes (paper money). Do remember coins were worth what they were because of weight. So those 100 gp coin would almost have to weigh as much as 100 1gp coins.
Of coursew if there is a strong enough goverment then maybe you'll get what we have today where money is worth x because the goverment says it does...though a strong banking guild could do it too like in Eberron where banknotes have weight.
Yet a lumberjack would probably be healthier then the wizard who does spend lots of time studying wouldn't he?
Well yes that was a problem with all coin based money systems...but a more natural step would be the development of tradebars and/or bank notes (paper money). Do remember coins were worth what they were because of weight. So those 100 gp coin would almost have to weigh as much as 100 1gp coins.
Of coursew if there is a strong enough goverment then maybe you'll get what we have today where money is worth x because the goverment says it does...though a strong banking guild could do it too like in Eberron where banknotes have weight.
No. Explain why the lumberjack would have a better immune system. Doing biomedical science; nothing about that so far.
The coin system is based on gold and silver being worth a lot more than it is currently in Faerûn. Makes gold a lot more special. The players absolutely loved what me and my brother did.
That being said... Radioactive materials? That's MY department! Also, dangerous lasers. My lab partner saw blue for days...
As has been stated by authorities better than I, the immune system has little to do with how "athletic" you are. Now, how well you recover AFTER being affected may be a different story. But that's assuming you basically already failed your Fort save.
That being said... Radioactive materials? That's MY department! Also, dangerous lasers. My lab partner saw blue for days...
Radioactive stuff's boring, mate! We just used it for labelling nucleotides, i think. Didn't actually use it, just disposed of it. And radioactive stuff's great for tracking!
That being said... Radioactive materials? That's MY department! Also, dangerous lasers. My lab partner saw blue for days...
By the way, you seem to lead an interesting life, as well.
The coin system is based on gold and silver being worth a lot more than it is currently in Faerûn. Makes gold a lot more special. The players absolutely loved what me and my brother did.
Meh I wouldn't be but it is your game...I was just curious.
wow, I have to admit that 3e had some flaws but it outshined 2e in EVERY single way (IMO) except for maybe FR lore.
FR specific problems I had:
-the elven retreat (how much more Tolken can you POSSIBLY get?)
No flaw of the 3E. (Just wanted to point this out ;) )
-books are automatically canon
Another thing that is not system bound and yes, some designers should read the scripts of the novels before they go in print. Or even better, authors consult designers. Luckily enough, most of the current crop does so and a very good at it.
-the absurd amount of deities
Utterly disagree. The Romans had about 100 more, the Celts 250 more. No-one ever bemoaned the hundreds of new feats and spells with each book, so a set number of deities will not hurt, if you want to play a decent enough divine caster.
-the taking of things FR specific and making them core like Expedition to Undermountain and Drow of the Underdark
Very much so! That was IMHO just a shortcut to create a stunning adventure/campaign, but make it open for all. Like the "good old" campaign boxes who could be used in every setting, e.g. Night Below.
-statting lowly merchants and barkeeps (seriously...why?)
Statting was generally overdone. It started with the deities, then you get PrC with in-depth stuff and a fully statted NPC, finally they fill the MM IV - x with statted people eating up lots of space. The DMG, BTW, gave a decent enough example how to stat these mercahnts, cooks, and barmaids.
No, what irked me most? 3E & FRish? The deicide amongst the drow deities and the length of the War of the Spider Queen - series. Yes, they were a good read, but for DMs and people interested only in the facts, an utter nightmare. It stretched over nigh 4 years and until TGHotR and that Dragon 3xx article by Mr. Boyd was out, we did not even had a clue how long it lasted. That's nigh 2 years after the series finished. And on top of that, as we still waited for the status quo to be described, enter the Lady Penitent series, where the deicide starts in earnest. Lots of stuff going on therein beggars belief and if there is one wish I'd have for the future, I'd ask the designers to produce web-enhancements et al which accompany the novels and gives the gamers (i.e. DMs) a run-down of the results of some of the changes the novels speak about.
Of course, since the Spellplague is about to blow another hole into the drow history, there was no need for that up to now. Well well ...
No. Explain why the lumberjack would have a better immune system. Doing biomedical science; nothing about that so far.
It is a medical FACT that people who live in dirty hazardous environments have a stronger immune systemt then 'clean people' (I saw it on a medical show, and some University did a study). What that means is that people who live clean, decent , 'fastidious' lives are FAR MORE likely to get sick then those who spend their lives living in the streets eating garbage. A constant intake of germs builds a VERY strong immune system. Now, who is more likely to be around Germs? The outdoorsey, lumberjack/barbarian type who bathes perhaps once a year, or the neat little 'nerd-boy' wizard who cloisters himself inside towers with his sunlless, pastey skin? ;)
The coin system is based on gold and silver being worth a lot more than it is currently in Faerûn. Makes gold a lot more special. The players absolutely loved what me and my brother did.
Thats why every intelligent adventurer carries GEMS.
As JohnKretzer pointed out, a coin is based on its weight, so a hundred gold-piece coin would still weigh the same as a hundred Gold pieces!
That being said, I too have 'nerfed' the worlds ecenomy, and Gold is as rare as it should be, although not nearly as rare as it was during the Middle Ages. When I start a new campaign, the first couple adventurers the PCs are lucky to find Silver mixed in with the copper.
Thats why finally having enough for a mount is special... one of the many things WoW got right.
It is a medical FACT that people who live in dirty hazardous environments have a stronger immune systemt then 'clean people' (I saw it on a medical show, and some University did a study). What that means is that people who live clean, decent , 'fastidious' lives are FAR MORE likely to get sick then those who spend their lives living in the streets eating garbage. A constant intake of germs builds a VERY strong immune system. Now, who is more likely to be around Germs? The outdoorsey, lumberjack/barbarian type who bathes perhaps once a year, or the neat little 'nerd-boy' wizard who cloisters himself inside towers with his sunlless, pastey skin? ;)
-While all of that is 100%, that's assuming that, based on their professions, the Barbarian is outdoorsy to begin with, and that the Wizard cloisters himself in his tower. Would not, say, a slightly insane gladitorial competitor be a Barbarian? Can't a Wizard live in harmony with nature? Once you start looking past the basic stereotypes, this idea falls apart.
When talking about averages, it's not entirely implausible as an abstraction.
-That's assuming that, in a particular campaign, a Barbarian lives in the wilderness, or that a Wizard doesn't. A campaign setting can just as easily have a norm where "Wild Wizards" (Geomancers!) who live one with nature, and Barbarians who live in primitive kingdoms, like Settlestone, for instance. Now what? The archetypes that Barbarians are hardier don't exactly work.
A wizard could be described as a health nut who exercises everyday, but mechanically until he takes some bonuses (be it feats, skills, or multiclass) nothing he does is going to come close to someone who lives and dies by their physicality. To wizards, physical training is a hobby where as to the barbarian it is a way of life. Conversely, a wizard uses his mind everyday (theoretically), so they get a better will save (this one is more tenuous, but hey it's a game).
A person who is more physically fit does survive encounters with unexpected health risks more often (barring the strongest risks, in D&D terms something without saves or saves so high, even warrior types can't make it easily). This is also to say that even despite physical shape, sometimes things will get to them (failing a save).
This covers the greatest range of people.
What of the supposed polymaths and paragons of humanity, the multi-doctorate, award-winning thinkings in our society who are also great athletes and/or soldiers? I think some people in this world actually might be gestalt while the majority are NPC classes. If not as extreme as gestalt, then at least a hefty difference in starting stats (they're 32 point buy, while we're 22 point buy, etc). It's tough to know most are stuck in average while people are making history, but that's how things work.
Two things I can actually answer. :D
It is a medical FACT that people who live in dirty hazardous environments have a stronger immune systemt then 'clean people' (I saw it on a medical show, and some University did a study). What that means is that people who live clean, decent , 'fastidious' lives are FAR MORE likely to get sick then those who spend their lives living in the streets eating garbage. A constant intake of germs builds a VERY strong immune system. Now, who is more likely to be around Germs? The outdoorsey, lumberjack/barbarian type who bathes perhaps once a year, or the neat little 'nerd-boy' wizard who cloisters himself inside towers with his sunlless, pastey skin? ;)
The lumberjack would be a commoner (+0 Fortitude), but why would the adventuring wizard have a worse immune system than a barbarian?
And eating garbage will get you sick far quicker than living cleanly, but know what you mean=) That's why i suggested that you could get +2, +4, +6 etc after exposure to a disease.
The lumberjack would be a commoner (+0 Fortitude), but why would the adventuring wizard have a worse immune system than a barbarian?
Because they grew up in different enviroments and genetics? A barbarian surviving to adulthood would be exposed to those diseases and if he survived them chances are he is more resistant to them...as would every member of his family and ancestors.
*Agrees with the Hun*
Straight from THE ROMAN RECORD:
HUN (Habitat: Eurasian plains ) - Smallest of all barbarians. Feared foes of Goths and Vandals, ferocious warrior nomads and frighteningly efficient archers. Other barbarians running away from this bunch are spilling into OUR TERRITORY and causing no end of problems. Has prominent and sinister ritual scarring on face, and always fights from horseback. Voted all time winners of annual Gut-wrenchingly-terrifying-foe-we-least-like-to-fight-against competition in Roman Soldier Monthly. Dour in appearance. Lives on a diet of baked babies and tree bark gnawed straight from branch. Also reported to wear shrunken heads as small earrings, and smell worse than a beached whale. If encountered, remain very still and hope they don't spot you. If contact unavoidable, do not attempt to engage conversation regarding relative merits of Greek poetry or Roman poetry. Approach with extreme caution carrying long spear, and toss over some raw meat on end of stick."
Is this the kind of Hun you are adressing? Or did I miss something here?
I think of it this way (which is what I mean with my above statement). A barbarian (or fighter, or ranger, etc.) lives a very physical life. By default of their profession, a warrior's lifestyle, they are physically in better shape than a wizard, who's occupation does not require such physical training. Note that a barbarian society could have commoners, experts and the like. I'm talking about the berserker barbarian class, the warriors.
A wizard could be described as a health nut who exercises everyday, but mechanically until he takes some bonuses (be it feats, skills, or multiclass) nothing he does is going to come close to someone who lives and dies by their physicality. To wizards, physical training is a hobby where as to the barbarian it is a way of life. Conversely, a wizard uses his mind everyday (theoretically), so they get a better will save (this one is more tenuous, but hey it's a game).
-I understand that, and I agree, but like I was just saying, there is nothing that outright says, in either of the class descriptions, that a Barbarian lives a physically fit life, and that they are at home in the wilds, and all of that. Same thing with a Wizard. Nothing says that they have to be locked in their towers 24/7. In a setting where Barbarians are city-dwelling gladiators, and Wizards are much more akin to Druids? Now what? The roles are reversed. And yet, the Barbarians still have better saves, or whatever it is, than the Wizards, in the case of resisting disease.
-Personally, it is my opinion that this should be a (sub)racial thing. Just another reason why I say Humans should get subraces, or free racial/regional feats. An 'arctic' Human would certainly be more hardier than a 'Metropolitan' Human.
-I understand that, and I agree, but like I was just saying, there is nothing that outright says, in either of the class descriptions, that a Barbarian lives a physically fit life, and that they are at home in the wilds, and all of that. Same thing with a Wizard. Nothing says that they have to be locked in their towers 24/7. In a setting where Barbarians are city-dwelling gladiators, and Wizards are much more akin to Druids? Now what? The roles are reversed. And yet, the Barbarians still have better saves, or whatever it is, than the Wizards, in the case of resisting disease.
-Personally, it is my opinion that this should be a (sub)racial thing. Just another reason why I say Humans should get subraces, or free racial/regional feats. An 'arctic' Human would certainly be more hardier than a 'Metropolitan' Human.
Substitution levels are also a good option.
The population density is much higher and people travel a lot more which means diseases spread much better. Medieval cities are not clean, they most likely have a lot more human waste that contains more pathogens than some barbarian village.
City dwellers are more likely to have encountered dangerous diseases and either inherited or developed a resistance to them.
The kind that wears blue football strips, so worse than what you listed ;p
And for diseases:
Genetically, i don't see why there should be a difference between a barbarian and a wizard; granted that the wizard's gotta be smart, but i'd say education would play a huge role there.
Naturally, barbarians/wilderness dwellers will be stronger than the city dwelling wizard as they spend a lot of time just walking about; but as long as your normally healthy (as most adventurers would be), your immune system's hardly gonna be any worse off than the bushwhacking, trailblazing, root-eating, goblin-slaying ranger. But these are medieval cities, sinkholes of diseases.
Now, if the adventurers are exploring a goblin infested cavern, and the aforementioned goblin-slaying ranger's already had a case of the goblinoid flu, he's gonna be more resistant (say +2 to -6 on a Con save) than the rest. When they then arrive back in the city, and the local strain of nasty e. coli's giving everyone the runs, the wizard who lived there earlier might have been infected and might have the antibodies to deal with it, while the poor ranger's spending his loot on toilet paper.
And for diseases:
Genetically, i don't see why there should be a difference between a barbarian and a wizard; granted that the wizard's gotta be smart, but i'd say education would play a huge role there.
I am actualy going alot futher here then I would care to go into with game but technicaly in a fantasy city with high levels of magic diseases won't be as common as say in a barbarian tribe which might have a shamen...
So chances are the barbarian and most importantly his ancestor would have been more exposed to disease then the wizard or his ancestor. So by natural selection and the survival of the fittest a person(and his ancestor) who was raised in a more heavily diseased area would be more resistant to those diseases from that area because genticaly his body would be able to deal with them alot easier.(ala War of the Worlds). Because those are the only ones who would survive to breed.
Now of course expose to foreign diseases and he'll be just about as lucky as the wizard would be.( example of this would be what happened to the Native Americans when the Europeans came).
True I am at best a amature in the science but I do think the enviroment you grow up in can have a effect on this.
Personaly I just rather leave it simple...
-I understand that, and I agree, but like I was just saying, there is nothing that outright says, in either of the class descriptions, that a Barbarian lives a physically fit life, and that they are at home in the wilds, and all of that. Same thing with a Wizard. Nothing says that they have to be locked in their towers 24/7. In a setting where Barbarians are city-dwelling gladiators, and Wizards are much more akin to Druids? Now what? The roles are reversed. And yet, the Barbarians still have better saves, or whatever it is, than the Wizards, in the case of resisting disease.
That's why I never mentioned environment in my post. ;)
Also keep in mind, the game lumps poison and disease with all other sorts of physical affects, both magical and mundane.
That's why I never mentioned environment in my post. ;)
-No, but I'm just sayin'. I'm sure you understand the underlying spirit of my post.
@ Zanan:
The kind that wears blue football strips, so worse than what you listed ;p
Just for you then (and please WizO's, let me do this ;) ):
51 and counting :D
Just for you then (and please WizO's, let me do this ;) ):
51 and counting :D
Btw, heard a great joke; one of my Hun mates told it.
"Heard of the new Celtic bra? All support and no cups."
But we're still in the Scottish cup!
Tbh, Fields of Athenry's better than that "toon" (Funny how that also means town).
@ WizO's, this is all in good spirits!
@ Kretzer:
We both agree on things, but i'm just curious as to why the barbarian should nigh on impossible to fall sick. The simple fact that barbarians tend to have higher constitutions should be enough, therefore making it a constitution save instead would be better, with prior exposure warranting a bonus on the save.
@ Kretzer:
We both agree on things, but i'm just curious as to why the barbarian should nigh on impossible to fall sick. The simple fact that barbarians tend to have higher constitutions should be enough, therefore making it a constitution save instead would be better, with prior exposure warranting a bonus on the save.
That is true a con save would make more sense in certain ways. With bonus due to background and prior exposure. I could see that.
It would also makes sense though that some diseases if you beat once you are immune to futher exposure to it. Wouldn't it? Again I am not a expert here and just going on things I have heard.
Hence, innoculation.
Your immunity system is just like a muscle - if you never use it, it begins to atrophy, if you use all the time, every day, then it gets 'big and strong'.
That is true a con save would make more sense in certain ways. With bonus due to background and prior exposure. I could see that.
It would also makes sense though that some diseases if you beat once you are immune to futher exposure to it. Wouldn't it? Again I am not a expert here and just going on things I have heard.
You can get common colds again and again and again, and they're basically much the same bunch of viruses with slightly different protein coats, so our immune system can't recognise them. But for things like the plague, if you survive, you will never catch it again.
Tbh, Fields of Athenry's better than that "toon" (Funny how that also means town).
Hm ... but that's an Irish song, ain't it? Wonder why it is sung over there?
BTW, "108 and counting!" sounds even better! :D
Regarding the diseases, there is of course no way of stopping the clever DM and his players to go along the lines of real life science and all, i.e. getting immunities to some (as in: SOME) diseases after you survived them succesfully.
Hm ... but that's an Irish song, ain't it? Wonder why it is sung over there?
BTW, "108 and counting!" sounds even better! :D
'Cause Celtic supporters are mostly of irish (or italian, apparently!) descent? And because fans come from all over ireland to watch them play? ;p
But back on diseases; Faerûnians knowledge of medicine and diseases can't be that good, as they've been using magic to cure it. So how would they know of how, basically, vaccinate themselves? Disagree/agree?
But back on diseases; Faerûnians knowledge of medicine and diseases can't be that good, as they've been using magic to cure it. So how would they know of how, basically, vaccinate themselves? Disagree/agree?
While that is true that science would be lagging...and the only people I see actualy studying it are the Talonites who wouldn't be interesting in vaccinating people.
I would say it would be beyond them to do this is on purpose, though I can see people who don't live near a souce of divine magic would be more likely to be resistant to diseases.
But back on diseases; Faerûnians knowledge of medicine and diseases can't be that good, as they've been using magic to cure it. So how would they know of how, basically, vaccinate themselves? Disagree/agree?
One of the best 'fantasy' (alternate-history, really) books I ever read regarding disease and innoculation was Agent of Byzantium - if you are interested in the subject, it goes into some detail of just how a person in a medieval setting discovers the theory behind innoculation and the immune system. Also, it covers the invention of the first printing press and other things, and is just a very nice read from a neo-historic point of view.
The premise of the book, BTW, was that Byzantium (Constantinople) never fell, and the main character is an 'Agent of the Empire' (read: Spy).
A lot of the view though depends on how widespread availability to divine healing a DM decides to make the setting. Lots of clerics and healing magic being tossed around, then I'd say knowledge of medicine was minimal, as it was generally unneccessary. Classic Vancian spellcasting though I'd say suggested at least some level of medical knowledge by your average cleric for when the spells ran out, which they always do under that system. Personally, I tend to place the Ilmatari and Chaunteans as the tops in terms of medical knowledge, followed by Churches with more martial bents.
I'd say that Ilmatari probably had at least a functioning knowledge of contagion from all the healing they do on battlefields and impoverished areas... same with rangers and druids who probably rely on herbal remedy more than spells to deal with stuff like that. I'd guess that the knowledge was practical than academic, but I tend to think of rangers and druids as generally pragmatic people who go with what worked rather than what was reputed to work. Vaccination though would probably be out of the question though, as I don't recall hearing of them prior to the 20th century... could be wrong on that count though.
Vaccination was used for small pox in the East (Byzantine Empire, i think, was general Turkey area). Can't quite remember when, got brought back to the Empire in the 19th century, just not widespread. i might be wrong, mind.
Rangers and druids would be using things like salicylic acid (aspirin's basic form, used by Romans) and aloe vera extracts, basic, but things that work. And mushrooms... Mmmm... Mushrooms...
In fact, having the Complte Book of Necromancers, I can tell you that quite a few of them practice that brand of magic from a scientific/medical point of view.
After all, to become the ultimate expert on Death, one must fully understand what 'life' is, and how it works. ;)
* There is a scene in one of the original Thieves World novels where a Vivisectionist gets his hands on someone with regeneration. He was finally rescued after a few weeks, but the 'doc' had cut quite a few things off by then (which of course grew back eventually).
Think of how much fun it would be to do that to a troll. :D
Think of how much fun it would be to do that to a troll. :D
-That's the entire concept behind Trollgut Rope.
What it boiled down to was this - they had a couple of captured Trolls, and the would polymorph them into the creature they needed the part from - Griffon Feather, Owlbar Claw, Wyvern Scales, whatever... they cut the parts off, and then dispelled the Polymorph on the 'poor creature', and it would heal, allowing them to do it all over again the next day.
Did you ever feel sorry for a Troll?
What it boiled down to was this - they had a couple of captured Trolls, and the would polymorph them into the creature they needed the part from - Griffon Feather, Owlbar Claw, Wyvern Scales, whatever... they cut the parts off, and then dispelled the Polymorph on the 'poor creature', and it would heal, allowing them to do it all over again the next day.
-That kinda thing can ruin an economy...
Or a portal-network, for that matter.
We just have to suspend our disbelief a lot in this game.
You know, everytime I read the title of this thread, I have a hard time coming up with an answer, other then 'too much unnecessary stuff', like all those races that will never be used, or worthless Feats, or pure fluff PrCs, etc...
The rules themselves were as near-perfect as any set I've ever played.
You know the old saying, "Don't fix what ain't broken".
The roll to confirm critical thing bugged me a lot...
-I always saw that as a thing that reflects "luck". I mean, you can punch someone in the nose and not make them bleed, and you can punch someone in the nose with the same amount of force, and make the bleed. The former would be a Natural 20 without confirming the Critical, and the latter would be a Natural 20 with a confirmed Critical.
But back on diseases; Faerûnians knowledge of medicine and diseases can't be that good, as they've been using magic to cure it. So how would they know of how, basically, vaccinate themselves? Disagree/agree?
Undoubtedly, they wouldn't have the knowledge that we have.
However, Ed Greenwood has said that Faerunians have basic knowledge of the body and its functions. For example, they don't think the heart does all the thinking or other silly stuff like that, they know what blood does and probably don't think bloodletting is helpful, etc.
Magic, in many ways, is superior to tech when it comes to the 'mysteries of the universe', two of which are life & death itself.
In some sourcebook, somewhere... can't even remember if it was TSR or 3rd party... there was a group that made money by sellng rare 'monster parts' to mages for spell components and research.
What it boiled down to was this - they had a couple of captured Trolls, and the would polymorph them into the creature they needed the part from - Griffon Feather, Owlbar Claw, Wyvern Scales, whatever... they cut the parts off, and then dispelled the Polymorph on the 'poor creature', and it would heal, allowing them to do it all over again the next day.
Did you ever feel sorry for a Troll?
That doesn't work in 3.x...and I don't remember 2nd or 1st edition well enough. But it doesn't work in 3.x for sure...unles you use Shapechange and if you are casting shapechange they are better ways to make money.
You know, everytime I read the title of this thread, I have a hard time coming up with an answer, other then 'too much unnecessary stuff', like all those races that will never be used, or worthless Feats, or pure fluff PrCs, etc...
And all of those races that will never be used, 'worthless' feats, and pure fluff PrCs were used by people who loved them...so even those were good...you didn't need to use them if you didn't want too. So even those were also good...4th edition is simple but less options...and depth. I don't get people who think this is better...
There was a time that I bought EVERY SINGLE THING TSR put out, but if there's one thing WotC has taught me it's to be more discerning about how I spend my money. While there was some pretty bad stuff in some 2e books, you couldn't knock them for trying. In 3e, I felt that a good portion of the stuff presented was mere 'filler material' just to up the page counts. Add in larger fonts and humongous stat-blocks, and it's quite obvious the 3e was about quantity, NOT quality.
That being said, I would take 3e Realms over 4e any day.
That doesn't work in 3.x...and I don't remember 2nd or 1st edition well enough. But it doesn't work in 3.x for sure...unles you use Shapechange and if you are casting shapechange they are better ways to make money.
Then maybe it was Shapechange - its been awhile since I read that, and its probably at least 15 years old. I know it was the 'permanent' version of the spell, because it would have to be cast in reverse (or dispelled, forget which) in order to change the creature back (in other words, there was no 'time limit' on the change).
There are some 'mats' that you can get some pretty big bucks for, and also they sold 'trophies' to nobles who wanted to look like they were adventurers in their younger days. You know, things like an Owlbear's head mounted on a plaque, that sort of thing.
Not mentioned in that source, but something I thought of - Change a pair into Griffons and mate them, and then sell the eggs, or do the same with Pegasus foals, or whatever. There are tons of ways to make money like this.
Some feats were clearly not thought out. Monkey Grip was one.
For the Realms: How much more cosmopolitan it became; how most normal cities had at least 1% of elves and such.
John, there were some books that I would use 90% of or better (like LEoF), but those were rare. Most books had about 50% stuff I would use IMG. For me, that is the 'borderline' of acceptability. There are quite a few books out there that I wouldn't even use 10% of, so purchasing them would be stupid. Case in point - the very last book I bought without 'previewing' it was Races of Destiny, and I found it utterly useless. Since that purchase, I always make sure to borrow a copy from somewhere and read through it first, and if the info is at least 50% useful, I go out and buy the book.
There was a time that I bought EVERY SINGLE THING TSR put out, but if there's one thing WotC has taught me it's to be more discerning about how I spend my money. While there was some pretty bad stuff in some 2e books, you couldn't knock them for trying. In 3e, I felt that a good portion of the stuff presented was mere 'filler material' just to up the page counts. Add in larger fonts and humongous stat-blocks, and it's quite obvious the 3e was about quantity, NOT quality.
That being said, I would take 3e Realms over 4e any day.
It is...extremely unrealistic to think that a company can produce material that everybody can use all the time. Especialy with the wide variety of players and their taste in RPG customer base.
For instance I disagree with you on the book Races of Destiny. Except for Illmunines(sp?) I found the book very useful. Even the Illumines weren't bad...but they needed a world designed around them.
I am not saying you are wrong and defintly since they started working on 4th edition the quality has gone downhill, but I think it is a little close minded to assume because you thought something was a waste of money that it is true for everyone.
Then maybe it was Shapechange - its been awhile since I read that, and its probably at least 15 years old. I know it was the 'permanent' version of the spell, because it would have to be cast in reverse (or dispelled, forget which) in order to change the creature back (in other words, there was no 'time limit' on the change).
There are some 'mats' that you can get some pretty big bucks for, and also they sold 'trophies' to nobles who wanted to look like they were adventurers in their younger days. You know, things like an Owlbear's head mounted on a plaque, that sort of thing.
Not mentioned in that source, but something I thought of - Change a pair into Griffons and mate them, and then sell the eggs, or do the same with Pegasus foals, or whatever. There are tons of ways to make money like this.
Like I said it could be very possible in 1st or 2nd edition... in 3.x though I just don't see a 17th+ wizard Shapechanging into things so his friends can hach it off to make a quick buck...heck the cost of the regeneration spell would probably outweigh any possible profit.
For the Realms: How much more cosmopolitan it became; how most normal cities had at least 1% of elves and such.
I don't consider this so much as a flaw as a little pandering to people who don't like to be told, "No you can't play x race because they are none found around here."
It helps players deal with close minded DMs...or uncreative players who can't think of a backstory to explain why their characters are there.
I tend to ignore any percentage that is 1% or less.
Like I said it could be very possible in 1st or 2nd edition... in 3.x though I just don't see a 17th+ wizard Shapechanging into things so his friends can hach it off to make a quick buck...heck the cost of the regeneration spell would probably outweigh any possible profit.
-Give him a few more levels, and the a Wizard can do the entire Epic "Make your own demiplane out of platinium, and mine it" trick.
I tend to ignore any percentage that is 1% or less.
-In a city of 10,000, 1% is only 100 individuals. That's easily ignorable.
And John, I see what you are saying, but look at it this way - you and I both may have found 50% of a 2e book worthwhile, but perhaps we both liked different halves. The book was still worth the purchase though, because of the greater amount of usable material presented afforded a greater percentage of people to enjoy it.
Now, the books are rather 'light' on content, meaning that maybe I'll like 30%, and you like a different 30%, but that still leaves 40% that neither one of us liked. The quality has gotten so bad that there was very little produced in the core books that I could use without major tweaking. In 2e, I use to use stuff right out of the books as-is, even if it was from Greyhawk!
And compare Stat blocks - instead of having a page for an NPC, we used to get a single line. If you aren't going to use an NPC, that wastes an entire page now. The presentation of newer material does not lend itself well to greater exceptance, because there is less of it per page.
And the Cosmopolitaness of it all... yeah. When I look at the 1e FR maps, they are mostly empty; then as we go through second edition, all those areas start filling in; then 3e comes along and changes the maps, with the SOLE PURPOSE of losing all the empty areas!
Now the 4e team comes along (composed of some of those guys who made the 3e decision) and tells us that FR is broken, and they need to 'put back' all those empty spaces.. you know... the ones THEY TOOK AWAY!!!
Is the game industry the only one that pays people to fix the very things they are responsible for breaking?
Talk about your 'ultimate job security'.
No... its a 100.
And John, I see what you are saying, but look at it this way - you and I both may have found 50% of a 2e book worthwhile, but perhaps we both liked different halves. The book was still worth the purchase though, because of the greater amount of usable material presented afforded a greater percentage of people to enjoy it.
Now, the books are rather 'light' on content, meaning that maybe I'll like 30%, and you like a different 30%, but that still leaves 40% that neither one of us liked. The quality has gotten so bad that there was very little produced in the core books that I coiuld use without major tweaking. In 2e, I use to use stuff right out of the books as-is, even if it was from Greyhawk!
And compare Stat blocks - instead of have a page for an NPC, we used to get a single line. If you aren't going to use an NPC, that wastes an entire page now. The presentation of newer material does not lend itself well to greater exceptance, because there is less of it per page.
And the Cosmopolitaness of it all... yeah. When I look at the 1e FR maps, they are mostly empty; then as we go through second edition, all those areas start filling in; then 3e comes along and changes the maps, with the SOLE PURPOSE of losing all the empty areas!
Now the 4e team comes along (composed of some of those guys who made the 3e decision) and tells us that FR is broken, and they need to 'put back' all those empty spaces.. you know... the ones THEY TOOK AWAY!!!
Is the game industry the only one that pays people to fix the very things they are responsible for breaking?
Talk about your 'ultimate job security'.
I won't go into the design decisions of 4th edition or the NEW REALMS. I will leave it at I think they could have done what they wanted and reached their stated goals without the mess they are making.
However I disagree with you on certain issues of books useablity in 3.x...and leave it at that. I am just saying it is better to have those options then not to have them as you would reach a larger number of people. The problem is that they want everybody to buy all the books all the time and that is just not unrealistic I think you will end up hurting your sales in the long run as you become catering too much to a nich market.
-In a city of 10,000, 1% is only 10 individuals. That's easily ignorable.
But then add up all the other 1%'s and you end up with a lot more non-humans. But i just ignored that alltogether.
Thats the bottom line.
Whats printed in a sourcebook is only a 'guideline' and is only fact in the 'canon Realms', which no one plays in. Only the novels and sourcebooks take place there.
Whatever... the only thing I'm glad about the coming of 4e is no more redundant PrCs and useless Feats. 3e is finished, and to tell you the truth, I thought it was finished quite some time ago. I could have easily lived without most of the books that came out in the last couple years.
So why play in 4e, an incomplete system, when you can play in 3e, which is not only 'finished', but has years of playtesting behind it and support will continue through MANY 3rd party sources?
What would you rather ride to the Moon in? The old Apolla ships, or the new, shiney Space Shuttles?
As for me, I'll take the Apollo's -they have a better track record and I'd like to make it back in one piece. Shiney and new is all well and good, but I'd rather stick with something I know works and will get the job done...
Even if it is 'last year's model'. ;)
I usually just assumed that there were at least a few members of each of the major races in most large settlements... just as many as I needed as a DM to make a plot arc work. Seemed to me to be the only reasonable thing to do.
-In my own setting, after writing the population, and racial breakdown of said setting, I include a little parenthesis that includes a few races that exist with a 'neglible' population.
I can't say I've ever really paid much attention to those statistics... if it seems like the sort of place Mr. Gnome would live, then there's a population of some sort... or Mr. Avarial for that matter. ;)
-Mr. Gnome, probably. Mr. Avariel? Not really. They're virtually extinct, and isolationist.
Who knows what she is doing, or where she is hangin' when Mr. Avariel isn't around? :P
Well, maybe not Mr. Avariel, but maybe Mrs. Avariel is a veritable social butterfly.
Who knows what she is doing, or where she is hangin' when Mr. Avariel isn't around? :P
-She's hangin' with Mr. Cooper. I can't say anything about that TV show, other than it exists, and I am aware of it's existence. That said...
Maybe Mr. Avariel ahs been getting a little 'side action' as well.. I heard a couple of Gnome Girls have given birth to winged babies. ;)
Then again, since the Spellplague struck, there probably is an Avariel ghetto somewhere in Baldur's gate.
-That is, if Avariel exist in 4e.
I heard a couple of Gnome Girls have given birth to winged babies. ;)
-Those are called 'pidgeons'.
-Heh, I actually used a pidgeon in one of my campaigns, once. The character, a Bamboo Spirit Folk Samurai, used her ability to speak with animals to talk to the pidgeon, and ask it to follow the criminal who was running away from the scene of a crime, and see where he went. The pidgeon agreed, as long as the Samurai guarded and protected her eggs. Mee-Yon (The Samurai) agreed, and the pidgeon flew after the criminal. A couple of hours later, the pidgeon returned. When Mee-Yon asked where the criminal went, the pidgeon completely forgot why it had left her nest to begin with. After all, they don't call it "bird brained" for no reason!
Avariels are only on the verge of extinction if I say they are... ;)
-Hmm...Stigger the Luminous is petitioning Retcon, Lord of Changes, to effect and alter Canon, Retcon's brother.
-Ladies and gentlemen, this is what divine politics is like, for those who can't participate in it first hand.
Petition? Hardly. If I say it, it is so. At least in the facet of reality over which I have dominion... as to the rest of you, its probably not the case, but those are lesser shards of my Truth, so they matter not. :P :D
-Retcon, Lord of Change, is even mightier than you, Luminous One. Many entities are, if you catch my drift.
But Consistency is there to stop them. I'm his High-Priest and Chosen.
-As has been demonstrated, Alediran, Recon is more powerful than Consistency, and Canon.
-As has been demonstrated, Alediran, Recon is more powerful than Consistency, and Canon.
Retcon may be more powerful, but he is not all powerful and Consistency and Canon still live and fight him.
Retcon may be more powerful, but he is not all powerful and Consistency and Canon still live and fight him.
-That they do. However, whenever push comes to shove on a matter, Retcon seems to win time and time again. He strikes again, and again, and, thus far, even Continuity and Canon cannot stop him. At best, they are able to banish him for a limited period. But, invariably, he appears in the Forgotten Realms, once again, altering things as suits his whim.
-That they do. However, whenever push comes to shove on a matter, Retcon seems to win time and time again. He strikes again, and again, and, thus far, even Continuity and Canon cannot stop him. At best, they are able to banish him for a limited period. But, invariably, he appears in the Forgotten Realms, once again, altering things as suits his whim.
As the High-Priest and Chosen of Consistency I made The Vault impossible to be retconed. It's a demiplane dedicated to the gods of flawless creativity. If Retcon tries to enter The Vault he is automatically expelled to FR 4th edition.
As the High-Priest and Chosen of Consistency I made The Vault impossible to be retconed. It's a demiplane dedicated to the gods of flawless creativity. If Retcon tries to enter The Vault he is automatically expelled to FR 4th edition.
-Is not the Realmsvault a beacon of power for Retcon? Think about it...
-Is not the Realmsvault a beacon of power for Retcon? Think about it...
Not at all, we don't intend to change the setting with ill-written plots filled with holes. And if we state in our cannon version that Cyric can't kill Mystra then he can't.
Not at all, we don't intend to change the setting with ill-written plots filled with holes. And if we state in our cannon version that Cyric can't kill Mystra then he can't.
-The Realmsvault is a retcon of the official Forgotten Realms history. Thus, Lord Retcon feeds off of it, strengthening himself in the process.
-The Realmsvault is a retcon of the official Forgotten Realms history. Thus, Lord Retcon feeds off of it, strengthening himself in the process.
That would be the 4th ed FR, they are the ones feeding Retcon.
-The Realmsvault is a retcon of the official Forgotten Realms history.
Then obviously, Lord Retcon is not necessarily an enemy.
Isn't he really the god of Alternate Realities?
I guess that would make him an enemy of the Council of cross-time Kangs. :P
Another general thing that peeves me - why longer living races don't have NPC's of higher levels. What's been done in my campaigns is to generally give dwarves and elves higher levels, to reflect their age. Also, this might be because i've always viewed elves and dwarves as more powerful than humans as i read LotR when i was 8-9.
That's what I also do, only elves and very special humans can access Epic Spells with ease, for example. And most human NPCs (except Chosens and proxies) can't reach beyond 20th lvl.
I guess that would make him an enemy of the Council of cross-time Kangs. :P
-Lord Retcon hates Kang. Each and every one of him.
Another general thing that peeves me - why longer living races don't have NPC's of higher levels.
-Most people criticize the setting for having too many higher level NPCs as it is right now.
-I know wht you mean, though. Age does not equal power, though. Don't forget that. While age and power often go hand in hand, that isn't a universal maxim. There exist two years olds who can cast cantrips (yours truly), and 500 year old Dwarves who, having been housewives all of their lives, don't have very many class levels.
the dead class levels
arcane archer
eldritch knight
deity stats(( they should of given their avatar stats)
this and that
-Most people criticize the setting for having too many higher level NPCs as it is right now.
-I know wht you mean, though. Age does not equal power, though. Don't forget that. While age and power often go hand in hand, that isn't a universal maxim. There exist two years olds who can cast cantrips (yours truly), and 500 year old Dwarves who, having been housewives all of their lives, don't have very many class levels.
i didn't mean "high" npc's, just elf warriors being more than just war1.
As for age, age=power for most warriors and such, but don't change it for commoners such. A 200 year old elf soldier hammers a 25 year old human.
-Hey, people were complaining about too many Prestige Classes? I just leveled up my character a few levels (I got +50,000 EXP from a Deck of Many Things), and I went through, like, four or five books, and couldn't find a PrC that I liked that matched my character's concept (Morninglord). I eventually went with Contemplative, from CD, but that was because I thought it was the best out of everything I already saw. Phooey.
Arcane Spellcasters do have very interesting PrCs: Archmage, Elemental Savant, Geometer, Ultimate Magus, Eldritch Disciple, Arcane Hierophant, etc. Love Arcane Spellcasters.
i didn't mean "high" npc's, just elf warriors being more than just war1.
As for age, age=power for most warriors and such, but don't change it for commoners such. A 200 year old elf soldier hammers a 25 year old human.
-Well, even still. An Elf who recieves this: [-----] much training knows as much as a Human who recieves: [-----] much training. That Elf can be 100, or 1000. It's still this: [-----] much training.
Arcane Spellcasters do have very interesting PrCs: Archmage, Elemental Savant, Geometer, Ultimate Magus, Eldritch Disciple, Arcane Hierophant, etc. Love Arcane Spellcasters.
-Sure, sure. And Divine casters don't get nice things like that. Well, not Divine casters who happen to be Humans named Alton Honeywell, that are Cleric 5 / Morninglord 4.
-Lord Retcon hates Kang. Each and every one of him.
You know, I started to wonder who there are more of, Kangs, or Manshoons? :P
Then I realized... Manshoon IS Toril's Kang!
I know there is a list of Feats somewhere (do they update regularly?), but is there a list of all the official WotC PrCs anwhere?
-Yes: HERE IS "EVERYTHING"
You know, I started to wonder who there are more of, Kangs, or Manshoons? :P
-I am going to have to say Kang.
Then obviously, Lord Retcon is not necessarily an enemy.
-I think that "Lord Retcon" could be used as a tool. But ONLY in moderation.
18DELTA;)
-I think that "Lord Retcon" could be used as a tool. But ONLY in moderation.
18DELTA;)
-Once you start down the Retcon path, forever will it dominate your destiny!
-Yes: HERE IS "EVERYTHING"
Thanks for that.
Isn't great the way you and I 'feed' off each other? :D
EDIT: Is that every single one from EVERY WotC book?
I think those are only the ones from the basic books, which are 'public domain' - there are only 14 of them listed there.
Isn't great the way you and I 'feed' off each other? :D
-That's what makes this a community, and not, say a place to post.
EDIT: Is that every single one from EVERY WotC book?
I think those are only the ones from the basic books, which are 'public domain' - there are only 14 of them listed there.
-Supposedly it's "comprehensive". It says so at the top. That said, if it's lacking...
I pretty much use the original because I liked the way it contains all the original references, and the color-coding makes it very easy to find info about a particular region.
I did my own 'color-coding' with highliters, but it just looks messy and it's still not the same as going through the pdf.
It looks like I'm going to have to compile my own list of PrCs.
I want to include all the ones I have from third-party sources, but I was hoping to at least have a starting point with the WotC ones.
Edit: I just came across a great one! A little perseverance pays off. :D
The List
It looks like the last time it was updated was a year ago, so I may need to add a few.
Just tear them out if they're an eyesore. ;)
-What, the pictures? Heh, yeah, just put them back where they came from. That said, however, I'd rather have second-hand artwork than 0 or less than we have now of the original timeframe maps.
I pretty much use the original because I liked the way it contains all the original refernces, and the color-coding makes it very easy to find info about a particular region.
-The .PDF also has the search function.
-Once you start down the Retcon path, forever will it dominate your destiny!
-
18DELTA
-
18DELTA
-"You will find only what you bring in".
-"You will find only what you bring in".
"You keep what you kill." :D
I think he could pwn Drizzt and Everis Cale at the same time. :D
I want to be a Furion in 4e!
I think he could pwn Drizzt and Everis Cale at the same time. :D
I want to be a Furion in 4e!
And he plays D&D, which makes him cooler.
Back on Topic:
I want a single system for character progression, not three. Many of the 'class abilities' of the 3e core and PrC classes could have been rolled into Feats. Seriously, I could take the entire paladin class and create feats to duplicate it for the fighter, and the PrCs are even worse for this. The other thing is the concept of 'Replacement Levels', which I think is great, but should have been the main syatem, not an optional one. If you convert the class abilities into feats, and then provide lists of feats a class could possibly take at each level (WITH pre-requisite feats), you basically roll all three seperate systems into ONE. Less overhead, and MUCH simpler.
One of my favorite things about 3.5 was that the Ranger was given choices, weather to go 'archer' or two-weapon, at different levels. This is just the tip of the iceberg, and MUCH more of that should have been done, IMHO.
That was one of the few things I was looking forward to in the 4e rules - the talent tres (paths?) sounded a lot like what I envisioned for the 'perfect system', with characters who focus on a ceratin type of training become MUCH better at something then some else who 'generalizes' with his Feat choices.
In that kind of systemm, Feats replace both PrCs and Replacement Levels. You should be able to build whatever you want with just the core classes as a starting point.
In fact, if you wanted, you could take it to a whole 'nother level, and create a 'classless' D20 system, where each 'career choice' effects which ones you can take next.
I still intend to buy the 4e PHB, just to see how good their new system really is. If it is more to my liking then Pathfinder or Experimental Might, then I may just jump onboard after-all. Its not about loyalty for me anymore - its about the company that can best satisfy my needs.
i didn't mean "high" npc's, just elf warriors being more than just war1.
As for age, age=power for most warriors and such, but don't change it for commoners such. A 200 year old elf soldier hammers a 25 year old human.
What they need is a solid mechanic for advancing levels based on age. Of course I suppose the official reply would be, race blah bitty blah isn't as driven or focused as thier human counterparts, so despite the vast difference in age, human tenacity allows them to excel compared to thier race blah bitty blah bretheren.
Or apply race and environment, like the drow, I know the attrition rate is high, but jeez I don't think drow are that fecund, given the environment and thier proclivity towards pruning the tree at every opertunity you'd think drow are actually elven/tribble hybrids.
Does he really NEED to be any cooler?
Back on Topic:
I want a single system for character progression, not three. Many of the 'class abilities' of the 3e core and PrC classes could have been rolled into Feats. Seriously, I could take the entire paladin class and create feats to duplicate it for the fighter, and the PrCs are even worse for this. The other thing is the concept of 'Replacement Levels', which I think is great, but should have been the main syatem, not an optional one. If you convert the class abilities into feats, and then provide lists of feats a class could possibly take at each level (WITH pre-requisite feats), you basically roll all three seperate systems into ONE. Less overhead, and MUCH simpler.
Yes man, I'd love a D&D based on the UA expert, spellcaster and warrior classes with things like bards, monks, rangers, paladins, sorcerers, assassins, blackguards, ect, ect, ect built using skills and gradient feats (like the heritage feats), and on that note, make feats dynamic so that as the character levels certain feats improve with the character (why can't cant lightning reflexes get better, you take the feat and get a +2 on reflexes and evey 4, 5 or 6 levels it adds another +1)
"You keep what you kill." :D
-Eh, wrong character.
2) Feats. this was a good idea in the beginning and now there are too many. This leads to instability as how they interact with one another becomes more unpredicatable.
3) unnecessary skills that turn role- playing into roll playing. Yes, I'm talking to you "sense motive" and "intimidate". If role-played well I don't need a roll to tell me the NPC is decieving me. Regardless, even if your sure, there should still be doubt... and making it a game mechanic tends to preclude that.
4) Presige Class Creep. Once again, a good idea that got out of hand. What's a poor DM to do when his players own every book, and want to develop into something or another you really didn't plan for when you start running your campaign world? Yeah, tell em no... that'll keep players coming back, expecially after they've shell'd out 40 bucks for a book they can't use because the DM won't allow it.
5) Attack Creep. Well, if there is an AC 50, there must be a way for me to hit it!
Where does the madness end???ACs and Attacks need to have defined upper limits.
2) Feats. this was a good idea in the beginning and now there are too many. This leads to instability as how they interact with one another becomes more unpredicatable.
4) Presige Class Creep. Once again, a good idea that got out of hand. What's a poor DM to do when his players own every book, and want to develop into something or another you really didn't plan for when you start running your campaign world? Yeah, tell em no... that'll keep players coming back, expecially after they've shell'd out 40 bucks for a book they can't use because the DM won't allow it.
-Both of these things, as I've said, aren't really flaws. They're good things, truthfully. I'd rather have a lot of options, some of which aren't really developed too much, or are a little silly, than not enough options. And, my opinions of these Feats/PrCs are only one person's (Well, they count for three, but that's neither here nor there). For every PrC/Feat I think is crappy and unnecessary, there are an untold amount of others who like it.
...For every PrC/Feat I think is crappy and unnecessary, there are an untold amount of others who like it.
Is that so? While I agree that people have different preferences it is quite obvious that the community more or less agrees on what reasonable choices are when it comes to PrC/Feats. Naturally a player doesn't have to make reasonable choices in terms of trying to get more power, but in most cases the temptation is too strong.
Just go to the optimization board and ask what path your 5th level Wizard should take. I bet you won't see many "spellwarp sniper" suggestions. But you are bound to read something about incantatrix and archmage. This of course doesn't mean that there aren't people who play a spellwarp sniper, but there are definately more incantatrixes out there. Quite a bit more.
So you can devide the PrC and Feat options in great and crap and most people will agree. There might be some argument about the grey zone between great and crap but nobody is going to vote for archmage as the worst wizard PrC.
Is that so?
-Yes, yes it is. You even said as much.
Even with the above example, I've looked at the Incantatrix, and I despise the PrC. You'll never find me playing one, despite liking the base idea behind them... the description of the class doesn't work for me in respect to their abilities, so I discount them as a viable option for my characters. That doesn't mean however that others aren't entitled to play them to their hearts content. Personally, I'd love more research oriented PrCs that weren't oriented towards combat... far from it really, as they're much more interesting to me. Probably why I've modified the Archmage so that there are options going in that direction, rather than the mostly combat oriented stuff it has... ;)
-Both of these things, as I've said, aren't really flaws. They're good things, truthfully. I'd rather have a lot of options, some of which aren't really developed too much, or are a little silly, than not enough options. And, my opinions of these Feats/PrCs are only one person's (Well, they count for three, but that's neither here nor there). For every PrC/Feat I think is crappy and unnecessary, there are an untold amount of others who like it.
Yes, it is a flaw. When exactly how two feats might interact together is not clearly defined in the rules, it makes arbitration difficult. As you accumulate more and more, from a variety of different game designers, plays will attempt to use them in ways the designers never foresaw, and how they work is left to the DM. This is not a good thing.
1) Stat creep. AC and attack modifiers are out of hand. Rolling a d20 to hit AC50 is stupid.ACs and Attacks need to have defined upper limits.
Naw, I don't have a problem with this either way, I like being able to improve my character's stats, it makes them seem more alive, besides there are things like aging modifiers that are both boon and bane to soften the effects of stat creep.
And I can wrap my mind around rolling a D20 to an AC50, If say I was a L20 human fighter who ate my wheaties and pumped iron all the time, I'd have the maximum natural strength of 23 with my tasty +6 str bonus, so I'm halfway there to being able to hit said monster with an AC50 on considerable natural talent and experience alone, on the way I took a liking to my great sword and decided to focus my time on how to use this weapon eventually specializing in its use, spending even greater focus allowed me to specialize even further. So now I'm up to an AT28 just for building my muscles, learning my craft and taking a liking to one weapon in particular. During that time the gods favored me with a great sword of exceptional sharpness which allowed me to cleave even the hardest substances with little effort and now my I have an AT33, with my magic sword, my considerable natural talent, many moons of expereince, and dedication to my weapon of choice allowing me to not only find a weak spot others have missed, which I can exploit by knowing how to expertly handle my weapon and have a hope of penetrating this iron hard skin with great natural strength and an impossibly sharp sword, or 33+17 = 50
What doesn't make sense to me is an arbitrarily set cap that makes you go WTF? Why does this humungus godzilla sized adamantite golem have the same AC as the guy clanking around in full plate armor?
On the downside it can lead to an arms escalation as both sides try and outdue each other (competition aside, I'd say this just a natural result of trying to protect your investment - I certainly get ****** when I spend a nights worth of work coming up with a concept and hammering it out only to have the DM whack my PC and trash my hardwork in 2 seconds)
I also use the combination system in UA - Defense Bonus and Damage reduction, so having an incredibly high AC doesn't keep the baddie from hitting you, it just mitigates the damge. That means even if your Uber-Armor stops 30 points of damage, the 60-70 points of damage the dragon lays on you is still going to hurt like hell.
I liked 3e, but there is plenty of room for improvement. That doesn't mean I feel an entire new edition was neccessary, but a backward-compatible 3.75 might have been something I could look forward to.
And silly me here thought that was rather in the job description of the DM in the first place... I seem to recall something about it in the DMG somewhere anywhere.
Yes it is. No, I have no desire spending a significant amount of game time doing it.
DM a group of players who are network engineers and military intelligence specialists, and you very quickly find what the limits of the game are and how they can be exploited, pushed and broken.
I'm no slouch in the intellect department, but there is only 1 of me.:D
The other problem with 3.5E I have is monsters stat blocks. They have just gotten too long and cumbersom. I liked it much better when goblin stat were:
Goblin(AL:NE), (AC5(leather+shield), HD 1-1, 4hp, #att1, Dam/Att 1d8, Move: 6", sp att nil, sp def nil, SA: Infravision 60', ML: 12, TT: p) :D
By comparison, the 3.5E version:
Goblin, HD 1d8+1(5HP), init +1, speed 30ft, AC 15(+1 size, +1 dex, +2 leather, +1 shield) touch 12, flat footed 14, Base attack/ grapple +1/-3, Attack: morningstar +2 melee (1d6), Full attack: Morning star +2, space/ reach 5ft, SQ: Darkvision 60ft, saves: Fort +3, ref +1, Will -1, Abilities: Str 11, Dex 13, con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6, Skills: Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Spot +2, Feats: Alertness
And this is just a little EL1 nobody. It gets more interesting has the foes get tougher... and I'm running how many of these????
As for feats, thought a few of them were pure annoying. Once found an insane spell/feat/domain combo for Loviatarians. Think you did max damage with retribution, then had sadism cast, perhaps true strike too, and then you just pummel anything.
Bonus Feat (General)
. Bonus: Choose any one Feat you are eligible for.
. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, choose a new feat.
Its in AEG's book Feats :D
There are a few other 'gems' in that source.
Yes it is. No, I have no desire spending a significant amount of game time doing it.
DM a group of players who are network engineers and military intelligence specialists, and you very quickly find what the limits of the game are and how they can be exploited, pushed and broken.
I'm no slouch in the intellect department, but there is only 1 of me.:D
Which is why I favor the hard stare, and the flatly stated question "Do you actually think I'm going to let you get away with that nonsense?" as an answer to most things. Haven't had to deal with stuff like that for a good 2-3 years now. Though I could see where a bunch of folks like that would rather get off on pushing things to their limits, so make life a bit more difficult on a DM.
As to stat blocks, I can definitely agree that they've gotten a lot more complex. I doubt 4e is going to fix that one though, though I suspect that's largely to encourage people to subscribe to that whole DDI (or whatever it is) thing.
Yes, it is a flaw...As you accumulate more and more, from a variety of different game designers, plays will attempt to use them in ways the designers never foresaw, and how they work is left to the DM. This is not a good thing.
-That's the entire point of the DM: The storyteller and rule arbitor.
4) Presige Class Creep. Once again, a good idea that got out of hand. What's a poor DM to do when his players own every book, and want to develop into something or another you really didn't plan for when you start running your campaign world? Yeah, tell em no... that'll keep players coming back, expecially after they've shell'd out 40 bucks for a book they can't use because the DM won't allow it.
This can easily be avoided if the person has his/her character's path or build done and thought out before hand and then shown to you. True, some characters dont know what they're going to do until later levels based on 'in-game' happenings but for the most part, the player should have a pretty good idea of what he's going to aspire into. At this point, it's the DM's job to say yay or nay about his build and there should be a really good reason other than "Well, i personally don't like that PrC. It's too cheese or overpowered IMO so No." Maybe it's just me, but uber-controlling DM's aren't much fun to play with.
Best Feat I ever saw in a sourcebook -
Bonus Feat (General)
. Bonus: Choose any one Feat you are eligible for.
. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, choose a new feat.
Its in AEG's book Feats :D
There are a few other 'gems' in that source.
Well, I would assume the author had something special in mind and to him / her, it was clear enough. But mind-reading is, as we all know, some difficult kind of art.
-That's the entire point of the DM: The storyteller and rule arbitor.
Sure. I prefer more storytelling, less arbitration. But, hey you can play it anyway you like. :D :D
Sure. I prefer more storytelling, less arbitration. But, hey you can play it anyway you like. :D :D
-The amount of arbitration spent is totally dependant on the DM. Don't like Tome of Battle? Don't allow it in your games. Tired of arguing XYZ? XYZ has no place in your game. And so on and so forth. I do this all the time in my games. I like the concept of Incarnum, for example, but I don't allow any of those Incarnum classes in my game, because I don't feel like learning all those rules right now. That those rules exist, though, doesn't subtract from the 3e ruleset. It makes it better, as, perhaps one day, I'll reconsider, and lo and behold, I have all of these new rules, classes, concepts and so on, to play with in my campaigns.
Best Feat I ever saw in a sourcebook -
Bonus Feat (General)
. Bonus: Choose any one Feat you are eligible for.
. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, choose a new feat.
Its in AEG's book Feats :D
There are a few other 'gems' in that source.
The sad thing is...with the retraining rules it could probably be used to gain a infinite number of feats...or atleast somebody from the op-board would misintepert the rules that way...
You take that Feat, and all it does is allow you to take another feat... which you could of done in the first place. You can even use the Feat to take that same feat again, an infinite number of times, but either way, in the end, you only end up with a single useful Feat, which you would have gotten anyway.
You take that Feat, and all it does is allow you to take another feat... which you could of done in the first place. You can even use the Feat to take that same feat again, an infinite number of times, but either way, in the end, you only end up with a single useful Feat, which you would have gotten anyway.
-Hmm...Let's see...There are ways around that. It simply says "Choose any one Feat you are eligible for". It doesn't actually say you gain that feat. Therefore, we should assume that for every one feat you choose, you become permanently ineligible for, and recieve two otehr feats, in return. There.
Hmmm... can't even remotely puzzle out that logic you're using LK...
-The text of the feat only says, "Choose any one Feat you are eligible for." It doesn't say it actually gives you the feat. Because of that, the possibilities for interpretation can vary widely.
Also, how Cleric's PrC's were handled; old spells from 2nd ed were transformed into special abilities
-I've fixed most of that- concerning Elven deities- in Elves of Faerûn.
3 ed was pretty good but all the prestige classes are boring me to death...
Not at all, I love a lot of the PrCs: Bladesinger, Champion of Corellon Larethian, Elemental Savant, Archmage, Ultimate Magus, Geometer, Fatespinner, Shadowdancer, Arcane Archer.
Those are the ones I can recall.
or maby it's me who is tired of all this min maxing insted of RP builds.. i dont realy know
Some of the Prestige classes was good... but they where to many.
-As I said earlier, this isn't a bad thing. What you don't like, everyone else might. I'd rather have too much, than not enough.
-As I said earlier, this isn't a bad thing. What you don't like, everyone else might. I'd rather have too much, than not enough.
True but somtimes quality is better then quantity.;)
"Bha" Dont listen to my rumbling words.. to tired after work now..
True but somtimes quality is better then quantity.;)
-As has been stated, quality is in the eye of the beholder. The Incantrix, one of the most popular PrCs, I don't like. The...Rage Mage (Does that even exist? I think it does) might be the penultimate favorite of so and so. And so on.
I seem to recall a Rage Mage... Complete Warrior maybe it was. Argent Savant was one of my favorites... Lorewhatsit from the DMG would be, but I don't really like a lot of the class features, so I tend to pass it by.
-Heh...Why is the Rage Mage in Complete Warrior? :P
-Loremaster is a nice concept, but I agree, the benefits and class features aren't really that great. In my mind, it's a better NPC PrC than a PC PrC.
I remember back in 1e, we use to call them clerics. ;)
I'd say at least half that book should've went into The Complete Book of Fighters Who Use Magic. :P
-A good book. I think it was better than The Complete Book of Magicians Who Can Fight.
-Heh...Why is the Rage Mage in Complete Warrior? :P
-Loremaster is a nice concept, but I agree, the benefits and class features aren't really that great. In my mind, it's a better NPC PrC than a PC PrC.
But great for RP! Double it up with Olin Gisir!
But great for RP!
-Eh, truthfully, not any more or less than any other class with maxed out Knowledge: X ranks.
If thats the case, then the system was built with using Psionics from the ground up, unlike previous editions where it was an option. Since you need the psionics rules for all the 'mental stuff', and they are missing from the intial three core books, it means the system is broken from the start.
That's like buying a car, and them telling you the transmission won't be ready until next year... but the engine runs great!
-Heh...Why is the Rage Mage in Complete Warrior? :P
-Loremaster is a nice concept, but I agree, the benefits and class features aren't really that great. In my mind, it's a better NPC PrC than a PC PrC.
/random tangent begins
Whenever I hear "Loremaster" it reminds me of playing Rolemaster's Shadow World. I love that game... the Loremasters, the Navigators, the really tall and blue-skinned ancients. When 4E was first announced, a small part of me hoped that magic would be re-done as "lists" with power points (sort of... not the best way to describe Rolemaster's magic system, but close).
*sigh* Oh well... people who complained about 4E's so-called overabundance of powerful NPCs in the Forgotten Realms would have blanched at Shadow World. All those Loremasters and Navigators, heh... and nevermind the random godlike Ancient. Heh!
/tangent end
...if for no other reason than you don't have to worry about the "psionics is different" mechanic, nor the overlap in abilities.
-Psionics is different, and should be different. I never agreed with the "Psionics and Magic" mix rule, and always kept the two different. If not, what's the point in Psionics to begin with? You're better off being a Sorcerer/Wizard.
/random tangent begins
Whenever I hear "Loremaster" it reminds me of playing Rolemaster's Shadow World. I love that game... the Loremasters, the Navigators, the really tall and blue-skinned ancients. When 4E was first announced, a small part of me hoped that magic would be re-done as "lists" with power points (sort of... not the best way to describe Rolemaster's magic system, but close).
*sigh* Oh well... people who complained about 4E's so-called overabundance of powerful NPCs in the Forgotten Realms would have blanched at Shadow World. All those Loremasters and Navigators, heh... and nevermind the random godlike Ancient. Heh!
/tangent end
:: Random tangent begins ::
-When ever I hear 'Ancients', I think of Final Fantasy VII. Ah, what a great game...In my setting, I've recently incorporated Incarnum into the world (I recently got a hold of the book), and I am making it something very akin to the Lifestream of Final Fantasy VII. And, since I already have something that is very much- now that I think about it- like Jenova, I can somehow tie that in to things. And, I even gave that Jenova-like creature (though, it is modeled more on Lavos than anything else) a cool name, too: The Ravager.
:: Random tangent ends ::
That was a PHENOMENAL system! I tried running it, but others in my group didn't want to invest in another system. Too bad, because it ROCKED!
And it was called the Shadow World?
Go figure.
When I think Psionics, I think Jedi and Lensman (which is very Sci-Fi). One of the few series that used psionics in a 'fantasy' world successfully was Darkover (Highly recommended), but even there there was a Sci-Fi element. The Well World novels used both Psionics and Magic, and kept them seperate, which isn't easy to do. Once again though, those novels were Sc-Fi with a fantasy element thrown in. I think, no matter how much a book tries to be fantasy, as soon as you add Psionics in it becomes Sci-Fi on some level.
I think if they used the term 'Mentalism' as Rolemaster did, it would be easier to swallow. But the word 'Psionics' just doesn't sound like it works in FR.
But the word 'Psionics' just doesn't sound like it works in FR.
-Why do you say that, assuming that the definition of Psionics is the one used in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, like in all of the other D&D settings (with the possible exception of Dark Sun, since I know it was very Psionics-heavy, and might have had more subtle definitions/alterations).
-Psionics is different, and should be different. I never agreed with the "Psionics and Magic" mix rule, and always kept the two different. If not, what's the point in Psionics to begin with? You're better off being a Sorcerer/Wizard.
I should have said not have to worry about the inclusion of "psionics is different" mechanic. I agree it should be different in comparison to divine and arcane magic and with the mechanic included from the onset so that the DM doesn't have to overhaul all the exsisting material to support it.
As for psionics makes a setting feel like sci-fi ::shrugs:: my introduction to psionics was in 1st ed so I've never really felt that way.
I should have said not have to worry about the inclusion of "psionics is different" mechanic. I agree it should be different in comparison to divine and arcane magic and with the mechanic included from the onset so that the DM doesn't have to overhaul all the exsisting material to support it.
-Oh, okay. I don't think there needs to be any massive overhaul to properly support it, though. In my setting, I use Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, and Psionics. Psionics and Arcane/Divine Magic are not interchangable. Straight out of the book, it's not causing any major problems. No problems at all, in fact.
But rules that allow interaction between all different kinds of powers should exist.
-Why? Does AM Radio mix with FM radio? No. They're different bandlengths.
Like I said, Rolemaster had them, but called it Mentalism. Ed G. tried to move away from it himself, calling it "the secret art".
Even Paul Kemp tried to steer away form it, by referring to the psionicist as a 'mind mage' (which may actually be worse the psionicist).
We need a fantasy term for it - If you look it up on Wikipedia, it states that Psionics ARE the Sci-Fi version of magic!
Mentalism is good, but it was used already (although that shouldn't matter). Maybe a new term, like psychomancer, or telliturgist. I don't know - that word just says Sci-Fi to me.
Interestingly, if you look up the Wiki entry, it states that the game Traveller had it first, before D&D. I used to play Traveller, so maybe thats where I get some of my predjudice (and also all my Sci-Fi reading).
Its not psionics themselves that I find Sci-Fi - its the word 'Psionics'. The 'ics' suffix makes it a scientific name for a group of mental abilities.
-Oh, the term...Well, what do you want it to be called? I mean, I never had a problem with the actual term before. Cerebromage? Cephalomancer? Neuromancer? If you ask me, those sound worse than Psionicist!
We need a fantasy term for it - If you look it up on Wikipedia, it states that Psionics ARE the Sci-Fi version of magic!
-In certain settings, sure. In others, not so much.
telliturgist
Tellitubbies!
I would make it my life's mission to exterminate them all!!!
Then I'd go looking for the Wiggles.
Oh, and if you ever put a picture of teletubbies anywhere near me again Markus, I will happily nuke Long Island just to make it stop. :P
Its not psionics themselves that I find Sci-Fi - its the word 'Psionics'. The 'ics' suffix makes it a scientific name for a group of mental abilities.
Gary Gygax often got two distinct things out of takes on one thing: medusae and gorgons, drow and xvarts, clerics and magic-users (in that historically magic and religion is only distinct to the extent of big religions condemning other people's magic as sorcery). Though Gary wasn't behind AD&D psionics, which was an attempt to bring the psychic powers of works like Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books into D&D.
Ed G. tried to move away from it himself, calling it "the secret art".
The Invisible Art.
I would love it if they made these guys a new monster -
I would make it my life's mission to exterminate them all!!!
Then I'd go looking for the Wiggles.
Didn't you hear? They're monsters now, RAWR! Those are the new gnomes, and they live in Waterdeep's basements and sewers. ;)
-Dont like the current hit point/damage sistem. High level shouldnt translate into being more hard to kill.
-The classes progression. When i create a rogue(1rst level), it should be available to be any kind of rogue( assassin, con artist, spy, forger, thief,...), depending on the feats and skills i pick. Having sneak attack on a con artist doesnt make sense. The same can be aplied to the other classes(ex:spells in ranger).
-Cleric and Sorceror should be more atractive. 20 levels of just more spells its boring. Paladin should be a class, but a prestige class(nobody start of as a holy warrior of a divine cause).
-The later classes. The warmage and warlock seem a later/better version of the sorceror, same goes to favored soul to cleric. To me, scout is a kind of ranger, and samurai/swashbuclker are a kind of fighter. Hexblade its just a lame version of a evil nonelven bladesinger. In overall, the new classes are either better versions of later( like in the warlock-sorceror), or are just specialized versions of the later(scout-ranger)
-Prestige classes. I dont mind their number, but several are just poorly created and seem to be just filling room in guidebooks( ex:bear warrior). They should also be more versatible(ex: assassin and spells-this bars most npc assassins in the realms from taking the Pclass).
-Magical item creation. So if i want to make a permanent magical spell efect in a given area, i need permanency, but to create a ring that generates a permanent magical bonus, i dont need permanency?!
As for Fluff:
-Geography and Demographics. Many nations numbers dont make sense(ex:city of waterdeep and nation of waterdeep). Why are deserts always a product of magical destruction(calim,anauroch and raurin)? Whipping out the largest mooorland in the realms(High moor) to bring back another city from the past!?
If the realms are about diversity, why so many similar ''knightly nations''(cormyr,tethyr,impiltur,damarra)?
Stop the Drowcentrist in the underdark!Some fans like the lovecraft thing. So give them a few illithid/aboleth/beholder/phaerimm place to use. Not everything is drow bellow!
Update the info on guides from 2nd edition.
-Geography and Demographics. Many nations numbers dont make sense(ex:city of waterdeep and nation of waterdeep). Why are deserts always a product of magical destruction(calim,anauroch and raurin)? Whipping out the largest mooorland in the realms(High moor) to bring back another city from the past!?
If the realms are about diversity, why so many similar ''knightly nations''(cormyr,tethyr,impiltur,damarra)?
Stop the Drowcentrist in the underdark!Some fans like the lovecraft thing. So give them a few illithid/aboleth/beholder/phaerimm place to use. Not everything is drow bellow!
Update the info on guides from 2nd edition.
-Anauroch wouldn't be sensible if it wasn't for magic, seen how far north it is. it could be a cold, Mongolian-style desert (think Gobi), but not a hot one.
-Knightly nations were sort of Medieval, weren't they?
-Drow only live in the Upper and Middledark, really. The lower levels are full of nastinesses. Always thought that was appropriate. And the Upperdark's full of their enemies too; dwarves, cloakers (Rringlor Noroth), kuo-toa etc.
Other demographics and geography irked me though; how populations swelled and how Erlkazar was handled. The geography there changed massively, and Markus Tay deserves huge amounts of respect for how he's handled the map!
Ed G. tried to move away from it himself, calling it "the secret art".
'The Invisible Art' -- a term noticeably absent from Player's Guide to Faerûn. The Invisible Art is a rare non-magical talent that's perceived by most non-sages, if they know of it at all, to be one of the Realms' many strange types of magic. [Some sources peg it as a type of magic, but that's a clear rules artefact which distorts the Realms in favour of 'game balance'.]
-Why? Does AM Radio mix with FM radio? No. They're different bandlengths.
I listen to Sirius
I'm glad that there aren't many deserts in FR, in my homebrew Calimshan and Anauroch don't have sand dunes
-Cleric and Sorceror should be more atractive. 20 levels of just more spells its boring. Paladin should be a class, but a prestige class(nobody start of as a holy warrior of a divine cause).
-Keep in mind, that makes these already (supposedly) overpowered classes even more powerful. All of these classes are given minimal other abilities because their Arcane/Divine abilities makes up for all of that. But, in short, I've learned that if anyone takes straight Wizard and/or Cleric, they're silly. Most Arcane/Divine PrCs offer the same spell progression, with special abilities as well.
--Geography and Demographics. Many nations numbers dont make sense(ex:city of waterdeep and nation of waterdeep).
-Waterdeep is a city-state. What's the problem?
-Why are deserts always a product of magical destruction(calim,anauroch and raurin)?
-Deserts are representative of death. They are harsh, hot, and deadly. They signify the absence of life.
I listen to Sirius
-I have XM that I listen to on my TV (DirecTV) when I am cleaning, sometimes. They have great station names, too...'Ethel', 'Lucy', 'Squizz'...Classics...
About Crunch:
-Dont like the current hit point/damage sistem. High level shouldnt translate into being more hard to kill.
-K.I.S.S= Keep It Simple Stupid (no insult intended, it's just what it means). Its quick and easy and it gets the job done. SW changed it to some sort of vitality point system and although you can kill higher level creatures with a lucky shot, can you imagine the amount of Cheese that the guys at the CO boards would have with that? For us, it's always been how you illustrate the damage delt. For example, a character with say...10 hp takes 4 from a longsword. That's some serious damage, maybe missing an arm, or a deep laceration that's bleeds alot. Now, 4 damage to a character with 100 hp is a minor scrape, maybe a hard blow through the armor that will form a bruse.
-The classes progression. When i create a rogue(1rst level), it should be available to be any kind of rogue( assassin, con artist, spy, forger, thief,...), depending on the feats and skills i pick. Having sneak attack on a con artist doesnt make sense. The same can be aplied to the other classes(ex:spells in ranger).
-The classes are specific to a point, but can be generalized some what as well. If you really wanted to play a con artist, be an Expert because that's about what your character would bring to the table in any sort of combat engagement, nothing.
-Cleric and Sorceror should be more atractive. 20 levels of just more spells its boring. Paladin should be a class, but a prestige class(nobody start of as a holy warrior of a divine cause).
-You have to remember that the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard are practically designed for you to PrC out of them. I'd never play any one of the 4 base classes past lvl 5 or 6. As for the paladin, he's far inferior to a cleric when it comes to spells as well as inferior to a Fighter when it comes to combat. That really doesn't sound like a very good PrC. Also, a Cleric with the domain War is practically a holy warrior with a divine cause.
-The later classes. The warmage and warlock seem a later/better version of the sorceror, same goes to favored soul to cleric. To me, scout is a kind of ranger, and samurai/swashbuclker are a kind of fighter. Hexblade its just a lame version of a evil nonelven bladesinger. In overall, the new classes are either better versions of later( like in the warlock-sorceror), or are just specialized versions of the later(scout-ranger)
-I agree with you that the Warlock is more fun and far better than the Sorcerer, but not so for the Warmage. Although I love the Warmage, the Sorcerer just has too much versitility in comparison and is more of a boon to any adventuring party. Overall the Fighter trumps the samurai and/or swashbuckler unless your going for that sort of style, which can be RP'd or have feats geared toward that sort of play with the Fighter. I like the Scout over the Ranger and was happy to hear they're combining the two for 4e. As for the Favored Soul=
Average BAB, no domains, bad spell progression, limited spells known...need I go on? Only thing good about the Favored Soul is that they're pretty good for Gestalt campaigns. -Prestige classes. I dont mind their number, but several are just poorly created and seem to be just filling room in guidebooks( ex:bear warrior). They should also be more versatible(ex: assassin and spells-this bars most npc assassins in the realms from taking the Pclass).
-I concur
-Magical item creation. So if i want to make a permanent magical spell efect in a given area, i need permanency, but to create a ring that generates a permanent magical bonus, i dont need permanency?!
-Item creation is just plain stupid. Not only do I hate spending the XP but well needed feats have to go to certain types of magical items for creation as well! Another thing I was glad to hear about 4e, they're getting rid of the XP cost. Though I don't know about Feat requirements, should've just made it Create Magical Arms and Armor, Create Magical Tools, Create Magical Clothes as it's broken up in the Magic Item Compendium.
SW changed it to some sort of vitality point system and although you can kill higher level creatures with a lucky shot, can you imagine the amount of Cheese that the guys at the CO boards would have with that? For us, it's always been how you illustrate the damage delt. For example, a character with say...10 hp takes 4 from a longsword. That's some serious damage, maybe missing an arm, or a deep laceration that's bleeds alot. Now, 4 damage to a character with 100 hp is a minor scrape, maybe a hard blow through the armor that will form a bruse.
-After having started playing Star Wars RPG again, and at the same time playing D&D, I actually have begun to prefer the Star Wars vitality system.
I'm glad that there aren't many deserts in FR, in my homebrew Calimshan and Anauroch don't have sand dunes
I'm not, because I like deserts.
The Shaar and Hordelands have natural deserts, tough they aren't that big
The Shaar are savannah-like grasslands, for the most part, and so are the Endless wastes (though more scrub-grass). The Horse Plains are Tundra, more like the Mongolia steppes. The only real desert in the Hordelands is the Quoya... and it was created by magical disaster as well (the nation of Tsharoon used to be located there).
Also, it seems the Phaerimm were involved in at least two of those desert/disasters, and could have been involved in the rest as well.
I'm glad that there aren't many deserts in FR, in my homebrew Calimshan and Anauroch don't have sand dunes
The Anauroch really doesn't have sand dunes, at least not like a normal hot desert. Its supposed to be mostly barren wastelands, with a lot of rocky outcroppings, and cold, windswept tundra in the north (like Siberia). Only in the southern portion (The Sword) does it get hot and have dunes (although not as large as the type you find in real deserts).
The Calim Desert is far enough south and close enough to the equater to have turned into a true desert, even though it was originally a blasted wasteland like the Anauroch. I still prefer to think of it as 'wastes' IMG though (just like you), because we have more then enough 'Arabian Deserts' to the south in Zakhara.
I'm seriously considering putting the Genasi Kingdom in Calimshan instead of Chessenta. I might have to re-do my own game map again if I go 4e - I've been waiting to bring all the Middle-eastern style countries closer together anyway.
In FRCS,
The nation of Waterdeep as 1.347.840 citizens (give or take)
The city of Waterdeep as 132.661 citizens
By the political bounderies map in FRCS, the nation of Waterdeep is one of the smallest in Faerun, and only two other settlement of note are mentioned in that nation, Goldenfields(7.988 ) and Skullport(2.123), a third of it's area is cited as clearly wild land(Kryptgarden ans ardeep forests and sword mountains). Maybe over a million citizens is a little to much?
Curious, i just noted that it's described as ''the major cosmopolitan power in Faerun''. I know at least 3 other cities bigger then Waterdeep, and all integrated in large nations.
-We'll get you to Death Valley one of these days.
I would love that. I'd love it, love it, love it!:D
-We'll get you to Death Valley one of these days.
Heh, living in the mid-atlantic during the summer makes me like deserts too. I loved those 100 degree days when I visited Reno on a job trip.
*snip*
The only real desert in the Hordelands is the Quoya... and it was created by magical disaster as well (the nation of Tsharoon used to be located there).
*snip*
The Anauroch really doesn't have sand dunes, at least not like a normal hot desert. Its supposed to be mostly barren wastelands, with a lot of rocky outcroppings, and cold, windswept tundra in the north (like Siberia). Only in the southern portion (The Sword) does it get hot and have dunes (although not as large as the type you find in real deserts).
The Calim Desert is far enough south and close enough to the equater to have turned into a true desert, even though it was originally a blasted wasteland like the Anauroch. I still prefer to think of it as 'wastes' IMG though (just like yoyu), because we have more then enough 'Arabian Deserts' to the south in Zakhara.
Not a quibble with your Realmslore so much as with the terminology "real," and "normal" and the such-like referring to deserts.
The largest desert in the real world is: Antarctica.
"Deserts can be defined as areas that receive an average annual precipitation of less than 250 mm (10 in), or as areas in which more water is lost than falls as precipitation."
Deserts on Wikipedia.
Just FYI!
I would love that. I'd love it, love it, love it!:D
Heh, living in the mid-atlantic during the summer makes me like deserts too. I loved those 100 degree days when I visited Reno on a job trip.
-What's so appealing about deserts, anyway? I'm not being judgemental, I'm just wondering. I mean, I prefer warmer temperatures, and I'm the kind of person that, when the temperature is 80, I'm not turning on the AC just yet (maybe a little bit, right before going to sleep). Deserts, though, they just seem too hot. And then, of course, there are scorpions and rattlesnakes.
Not a quibble with your Realmslore so much as with the terminology "real," and "normal" and the such-like referring to deserts.
Well, I was referring to people's preconceptions about what a desert should be.
I know not all deserts are hot and sandy, but there is a certain picture one gets in one's head when thinking 'desert'.
I was just trying to help people understand the difference between FR's deserts - they all have their peculiar quirks and differences.
Oh, and if you ever put a picture of teletubbies anywhere near me again Markus, I will happily nuke Long Island just to make it stop. :P
But they are the ultimate Aberrations!!!
Those four are the despotic leaders of Abeir, and the sole purpose of 4e is to become epic enough to travel there and slay them.
About Waterdeep and it's demographics:
In FRCS,
The nation of Waterdeep as 1.347.840 citizens (give or take)
The city of Waterdeep as 132.661 citizens
By the political bounderies map in FRCS, the nation of Waterdeep is one of the smallest in Faerun, and only two other settlement of note are mentioned in that nation, Goldenfields(7.988 ) and Skullport(2.123), a third of it's area is cited as clearly wild land(Kryptgarden ans ardeep forests and sword mountains). Maybe over a million citizens is a little to much?
Curious, i just noted that it's described as ''the major cosmopolitan power in Faerun''. I know at least 3 other cities bigger then Waterdeep, and all integrated in large nations.
Rome had two million inhabitants at its height, don't see any problem with Waterdeep having over a million. Granted, what annoys me is several cities in the million class.
I like deserts myself... dry heat is so much preferable to humid heat. Probably why I was heading down to the Joshua Tree area this summer for a few days with my sister-in-law. :P :D
I find Calimport's existance baffling - surrounded by desert, but one of the largest populations in the world. In it's Imperial days, it makes sense, because food was brought in from all of its conquered territories, but where the hell does it all come from now?
Sewer Rothe?
I find Calimport's existance baffling - surrounded by desert, but one of the largest populations in the world. In it's Imperial days, it makes sense, because food was brought in from all of its conquered territories, but where the hell does it all come from now?
-Trade. And, there's nothing a Calashite likes better than haggling. Ask Crazy Ali. Well, maybe there's a few things, but...
As for Calimport, Keltar seems a likely place for that food to come from. The Calim desert doesn't stretch all that far to East of the city, so I'd presume that the tempertures on the eastern approach roads wouldn't be as bad with a nearby ocean to mitigate them. Manshaka seems fairly likely as well. There was mention of a lot of naval traffic in Calimport, and presumably a good percentage of that is food.
Without their empire (Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, The Lake of Steam, the Arnaden, Shaar, all those countries on the Chultan Penninsula, etc...) they got nothing!
Just a whole lot of crappy sand - thats about it.
I would agree that they could make a lot trading amongst the various northern and southern nations (they are ideally situated for that), but they really don't send much shipping north (which would make them a fortune) - probably because the Amnish and Tehtyrian Navies chase them off. All of their shipping seems too be in the south, in the Shining Sea. The Shining Lands have trade with Zakhara and the Great Sea along the southern Coast sewn up as well.
Calimshan could be an incredible naval power (mercantile and militarily), but they just don't bother with any sort of real navy. The economy of that country just doesn't make sense anymore, without all their conquered territories.
It's called the Land of Three Rivers. These rivers flood during the spring, from the metling snows of the Marching Mountains. Arable silt they leave behing significantly aids crop production, Thus, most of Calimshan's farm country clusters along the river's edges. Within past 200 years Calishite farms have more than quintupled in size and productivity due to development of agricultural techniques. Irrigation ditches redirect river water and trap it in reservoirs to lenghten growing season. These efforts do not assuage the starving in Calimport, they allow more produce to be exported, to the betterment of the landowners and traders.
also
The Shaar are savannah-like grasslands, for the most part
yea, tough there are some areas, unnoticeable on the world map, that turn to sand, that's common for savannas, for southern steppes even more
Throughout the Shaar’s length, the grasslands are dotted with localized variations on the terrain. In some places, sand dunes interrupt the flat horizon, while in others, small valleys gather enough rainwater to form ponds, supporting a relative abundance of plant life that attracts grazing animals and birds.
The Anauroch really doesn't have sand dunes, at least not like a normal hot desert. Its supposed to be mostly barren wastelands, with a lot of rocky outcroppings, and cold, windswept tundra in the north (like Siberia). Only in the southern portion (The Sword) does it get hot and have dunes (although not as large as the type you find in real deserts).
portion, from Oreme to the Border Forest, that's much
It is a vast wasteland of sand dunes, scorching hot by day and cold at night. The Sword holds the largest portion of the desert population, and is the area most visited by outsiders ... endless stretches of sand dunes cover much of the Sword—hence its other popular name, the Great Sand Sea ... The dunes themselves can undulate in a variety of sizes and shapes, depending on the size of the sand grains, the depth of the sand over the underlying bedrock, and the force and direction of the wind. In every case, travelers fi nd the going slow and the footing treacherous.
The only fertile part of Calimshan is the small piece of land to the east of the desert, below the mountains. The Arnaden is one of the few regions they've held onto through the years, but with the church of Bane expanding out of Mintar into Kzelter, they've lost their land connection to the area. And when the Spellplague hits, that entire region near the Winterwood becomes the Spellscarred Lands (:yuck
, leading to even less fertile land available to Calimshan. Also, even your quote says that the wealthy landowners EXPORT most of the food, leaving Calimport starving.And yeah, the Shaar does have variable terrain, hence my use of the word 'mostly'. ;)
As far as the Anauroch goes, the Sword is indeed a very large piece of terrain, but compared to the size of the entire region, its only a small (20%?) portion of the whole. What I meant is that comparitively, the Sand-Dune region is only a small part of what makes up the Anauroch.
I personally picture it looking much like the American Southwest, with broken rock fromatiions and cactus-strewn messas. Even though the maps show a clear division of the Stonelands and the desert, I really doubt thats the case - you probably wouldn't even realize when you left one region and entered the other, because the changes would be subtle and well-spread out.
The Calimshan desert I imagine to be much more like the classic 'Saharran' type desert. Nothing to see there but hundreds of miles of unbroken sand (except for the few Oasis's that survived the depredations of the warring Dgen).
I hate being away from home - I've been relying on my memory the last few days.
I never liked Calimshan as-is, despite all of Tom Costa's phenomenal work on it. It just seems too out-of-place to me. I'm thinking of swapping Akota (Zakharan Dark Elf region) with Calimshan on my own campaign maps, just to have everything make more sense culturally.
I seem to recall that the area north of Almraiven was arable as well, as was the region north of Manshaka, Shamedar, and possibly Volothamp. Not many major cities in the inland areas, but those multitudes of farm-slaves have to be somewhere, and its not likely to be in a desert. At least as far as 3e and earlier are concerned... 4e is something I'm not even going to think about.
On my current campaign map, I have a somewhat reduced Zakhara attached to the end of Calimshan (in order to get all those 'Arabian' cultures in one spot). Now I'm thinking that wasn't such a hot idea, and moving Calimshan south might be the better option.
Hmmmm... maybe have it where Thindol is... nobody uses Thindol anyway...
Then it can be an ancient Zakharan settlement... some possibilities there...
Calimshan, its genies, and its desert can all be ported south, and I can attribute very little past to them, except for the stuff regarding Chult, and how they are today.
With the change in maps in 3e, we lost all of the Lands of the Lion that those four tribes lived in anyway, so I can use Tashalar for that. :D
I expanded that area anyway (adding in quite a bit more land N. to S.), so there's plenty of room for everybody I lost around Lapaliya. :P
-What's so appealing about deserts, anyway? I'm not being judgemental, I'm just wondering.
Fair question.
I mean, I prefer warmer temperatures, and I'm the kind of person that, when the temperature is 80, I'm not turning on the AC just yet (maybe a little bit, right before going to sleep). Deserts, though, they just seem too hot. And then, of course, there are scorpions and rattlesnakes.
I prefer warm temperatures, myself. I also enjoy nature, and from what I've read about the deserts in the western and southwestern United States, they are breathtakingly beautiful and contain life that exists no where else (saguaro cacti can only be found in the Sonoran desert, for example). The landscape in Death Valley is supposedly quite eerie and almost alien, with cracked mud and these two huge stones that seem to move over time, in a path, although no one has ever seen them move.
Death Valley in the summer is dangerously hot, yes. Although, at other times of the year it's not quite that hot (for example, it can get below freezing there, too). There actually were indigeonous people that lived there, although they moved out of the valley during the summer...
I hope that answers your question, for or less.
I find Calimport's existance baffling - surrounded by desert, but one of the largest populations in the world. In it's Imperial days, it makes sense, because food was brought in from all of its conquered territories, but where the hell does it all come from now?
Not all of Calimshan is desert.
And of course, in the real world humans do, in fact, have a history of thriving in desert areas.I like deserts myself... dry heat is so much preferable to humid heat. Probably why I was heading down to the Joshua Tree area this summer for a few days with my sister-in-law. :P :D
I'd love to visit that place, too!
I hope that answers your question, for or less.
-Good enough. You didn't actually have to take the time...;)
-But, thank you.
-Good enough. You didn't actually have to take the time...;)
-But, thank you.
You're welcome.
I'm so excited about visiting certain places that I'm happy to explain what attracts me to them.Greenfields covers a lot of Waterdeep's needs, along with a large fishing fleet and quite a few ranch-style outlying farms in the surrounding countryside.
I find Calimport's existance baffling - surrounded by desert, but one of the largest populations in the world. In it's Imperial days, it makes sense, because food was brought in from all of its conquered territories, but where the hell does it all come from now?
Sewer Rothe?
Flood plains!
Greenfields covers a lot of Waterdeep's needs, along with a large fishing fleet and quite a few ranch-style outlying farms in the surrounding countryside.
I find Calimport's existance baffling - surrounded by desert, but one of the largest populations in the world. In it's Imperial days, it makes sense, because food was brought in from all of its conquered territories, but where the hell does it all come from now?
Sewer Rothe?
Flood plains!
To this -
To this -
You can get a wicked tan in that last one. :D
North of Almraiven full of farmlands, plus the mentioned flood plains next to the rivers calim and ice.
Dont get where you pick the idea that amnian and tethyrian navy would or even could chase of calimshite ship out of the north. The nallojal(calimshans navy) is likely the largest human navy in the sea of swords. Amn and Tethyr have smaller naval might that, ..., Baldurs gate.
Calimshan actually trades alot with the north(particulaly with waterdeep), and , of course its southern neighbours(tashalaar, lapal league, shaar, lake of steam cities).In fact, it might be the most important intersection of trade routes in Faerun( in doubt check trade map in FRCS).
Aside the large agricultural output, the marching mountains are among the richest mineral locations in the realms(note that the richest realm of deeep shanatar was under them). Add the large output of manufactored goods(more expensive that raw goods), since the majorarity of commoners in calimshan are likely craftmen of some sort(menial work is taken by slaves), and maybe that why calimshan is large and rich.
If still in doubt, compare with the middle ages. The cities of the arabic world in the middle ages were far wealthier and developed that any european counterparts at the time.
Empires of the shining reading would dispel all those doubts.
If still in doubt, compare with the middle ages. The cities of the arabic world in the middle ages were far wealthier and developed that any european counterparts at the time.
But then the Ottoman Empire had a chokehold on all trade from the East, i.e. spices, silks etc. That's why Colombus went west - to find a way past the Turks. Problem was, a big, bloody island was in the middle.
Not much for deserts, too damn hot. And full of sand that gets everywhere, just ask Anakin! Took this photo when out skiing.
Not much for deserts, too damn hot. And full of sand that gets everywhere, just ask Anakin!
-Notice that, for such a crappy, backwater planet, so many pivotal and important individuals and events hail from Tatooine?
-Notice that, for such a crappy, backwater planet, so many pivotal and important individuals and events hail from Tatooine?
it's the Force, midichlorians and whatnot. Think the Jawas have something to do with it. But don't derail my thread (got tricked into almost doing it myself), it's doing well! it's still picking on 3rd ed faults!!
it's the Force, midichlorians and whatnot. Think the Jawas have something to do with it. But don't derail my thread (got tricked into almost doing it myself), it's doing well! it's still picking on 3rd ed faults!!
-Can we talk about the faults of the d20 Star Wars RPG? It'd close to 3e.
-Can we talk about the faults of the d20 Star Wars RPG? It'd close to 3e.
Not got enough to do with Faerûn, wrong forums ;p
But demographics annoyed me too. Cities like Loudwater quadrupled in population in a few years.
-Oh well...
Hey, mods might get angry! And i'm taking pride in this thread; it's my best thread since Lossarwyn's source of magic!
Hey, mods might get angry! And i'm taking pride in this thread; it's my best thread since Lossarwyn's source of magic!
-That was a good one.
-Let's see...More problems with 3e...Well, if no one mentioned it, there is the lack of support (overall) for the "outer" regions of Faerûn.
How about graphic comparisons between the various merits and flaws of twi'lek dancers as compared to calishite ones? :D
-Well, Calashite dancers don't have lekku. That's a plus, as far as I am concerned...
Empires of the shining reading would dispel all those doubts.
That, and Empires of the Sands are two of my favorite 2e products - I've read through them several times.
And I've always had the impression that Calimshan's main source of wealth was bleeding their 'colonies' dry. They may still have an enormous amount of wealth leftover from their Imperial days, but its not like it was in its 'glory days'.
Also, from the Waterdeep stuff, I got the impression that Caliushite ships were unwelcome in the north (although perhaps not really 'chased off'). Calishite ships heading north to WD half the time are really heading for Skullport, to engage in the slave trade - something almost every northern nation finds detestable.
Not saying that the Amnish or Tethyr navies would be actively attacking Calishite vessels, but I truly doubt either would go to the aid of one if it was beleagured by pirates. The Amnish are also VERY protective of their sea interests (with Maztican trade being foremost), and they would not be above giving 'letters of mark' to pirates-turned-Privateer to harass Calishites (and everyone else). Of course, most of the pirates sided with the Sothillisians, but now that Amn is working with the Ogre army against the Tlincallis, I would assume the pirate part of that organization would be willing to make deals as well.
Calimshan has had very bad relations with many groups, because of their desire to dominate everyone. Whereas the Shining Lands (lead by Durpar) have been expanding out of the southern sea, and taking quite a bit of trade away from calimshan (they even travel to Maztica!), not to mention most Zakharan and a good deal of Kara-Turan merchandise goes through THEM, not Calimshan.
Looking at the maps, it looks like at least half of Calimshan is desert, but then again, they lost quite a bit of territory when the maps were shrunk for 3e.
All of these factors make me think of it as a fallen, decadent empire slowly crumbling to ruin, and wallowing in its own corruption.
And last but not least, I remember reading something about their navy being practically non-existant these days. I think Stigger found the pertinent quote (I'm no where near my sources this last week). I recall them having to burn their own navy at least once, and some plagues did a number on their sea power as well. Recalling from Stigger's quote that they have been making a VERY poor attempt to rebuild their power, but most of the ships aren't even sea-worthy! Its all just for show.
At least thats the gist I get - I'm just not seeing them as a major player anymore. they are being superceeded by youger nations like Amn and Durpar.
And Calishite Dancing Girls aren't likely to fall to the Dark Side and possibly become Sith. :D
-Alema wasn't a Sith. She was a Dark/Fallen Jedi.
-That said, Calashite women can be *****y, too, I am sure. Which is worse: an insane Dark Jedi joiner, or an angry Calashite woman? ;)
Looking at the maps, it looks like at least half of Calimshan is desert, but then again, they lost quite a bit of territory when the maps were shrunk for 3e.
All of these factors make me think of it as a fallen, decadent empire slowly crumbling to ruin, and wallowing in its own corruption.
And last but not least, I remember reading something about their navy being practically non-existant these days. I think Stigger found the pertinent quote (I'm no where near my sources this last week). I recall them having to burn their own navy at least once, and some plagues did a number on their sea power as well. Recalling from Stigger's quote that they have been making a VERY poor attempt to rebuild their power, but most of the ships aren't even sea-worthy! Its all just for show.
At least thats the gist I get - I'm just not seeing them as a major player anymore. they are being superceeded by youger nations like Amn and Durpar.
*idea*
A campaign where Calimshan is resurgent! They've rebuilt the navy, opened massive slave trade with Mintarn, and are about to help the Banites conquer SW Tethyr.
But yeah... 3rd ed geography was terrible. Did you get my PM on Sunken Ajhuutal?
As to what they have going for them economically... location mostly. That and owning a lot of the businesses in foreign lands as best I can tell. And Almraiven... can't really understate that one, with its three wizards academies and tendency to produce a tremendous amount of wealth with small sundry magics that generate a lot of coin. If you really look at Empire of the Shining Sea Major Products section of the city entries, some its very valuable, but a lot of it is remarkably practical and points towards Calimshan having a fairly self-sufficient economy. Trade is of course a major component of their economy, but also consider the economic effects of the black market, which certainly matters in Calimshan as the ruling families are the ones in charge of it ultimately. The Calimport accessory also suggests a tremendous wealth of artisan talent that the nation can draw upon as well.
Interestingly, the Empire and Calimport book gave me the impression of Calimshan being very much old money (Wealth, as Chris Rock might put it), versus the new money of Amn and Durpar (Rich, if you're familiar).
Ah, yes, almost forgot, I'm in favor of the Twi'lek, mostly because of the lekku. :P
Aren't there some SW forums around here somewhere where you can discuss that setting? Some of us have weak stomachs... :P
A campaign where Calimshan is resurgent! They've rebuilt the navy, opened massive slave trade with Mintarn, and are about to help the Banites conquer SW Tethyr.
I love that - definately campaign-worthy. Perhaps those "600 ships" aren't as ratty as they appear. Maybe they have some Mages hiding their real ships beneath illusions - ships that are larger and more powerful then anything people are used to seeing in the Realms.
And maybe the Rundeen or the Twisted Rune is financing the whole thing...
Did you get my PM on Sunken Ajhuutal?
Yes, and I'm still thinking about the last one. I should finally be home later today.
As for Ajhuutal - to be honest, I think I looked at its placement on the old maps, and picked a spot that made the most sense on the newer ones. I realize I inadvertantly doubled the distance, but I was thinking that spot on the Calimshan map was right between four land points, making it ideal as a site for a 'sunken section of land'. I normally don't do that, but occasionally I take a little artistic license when I think something would fit a little better if moved slightly. ;)
For the WORST case of that, take a look at my Samarach Map, wherin I completely moved Port Castiglar, because it fit better with the text, as applied to the shape of the 3e maps.
-Alema wasn't a Sith. She was a Dark/Fallen Jedi.
I wasn't referring to Alema Rar. Rather, I was referring to the Twi'lek, Darth Talon, in the Legacy-Era material.
-That said, Calashite women can be *****y, too, I am sure. Which is worse: an insane Dark Jedi joiner, or an angry Calashite woman? ;)
I'll have to ask Steven Schend.
@Lord Karsus
Aren't there some SW forums around here somewhere where you can discuss that setting? Some of us have weak stomachs... :P
-Your mom (which, as I am sure you know, as you know me decently enough, is not actually a remark about your mother, but rather, a multiple use retort).
I wasn't referring to Alema Rar. Rather, I was referring to the Twi'lek, Darth Talon, in the Legacy-Era material.
-Bah, that garbage? I try to ignore it as best as possible. I bought Issue 0 when it first came out, and I was like, "WTF is this!?"
I'll have to ask Steven Schend.
-I don't think you need to pester him with that. I think we all know the answer. ;)
-
-I have XM that I listen to on my TV (DirecTV) when I am cleaning, sometimes. They have great station names, too...'Ethel', 'Lucy', 'Squizz'...Classics...
Sirius has no commericals in all of their music channels, it has the NFL, and Howard Stern. XM has MLB. So, hopefully, their merger will go through I will get it all
I wasn't referring to Alema Rar. Rather, I was referring to the Twi'lek, Darth Talon, in the Legacy-Era material.
I am enjoying that stuff
Sirius has no commericals in all of their music channels, it has the NFL, and Howard Stern. XM has MLB. So, hopefully, their merger will go through I will get it all
-Well, good luck with that, then.
I am enjoying that stuff
-Bleh, it's garbage...As someone I know aptly put it, they took all of the 'cool' elements of Star Wars, and put it all together in a big glob to attract the newer generation...Sound familiar?
Given some of the illustrations I've seen of Darth Talon, it doesn't really bother me all that much, even if I have no intention of reading it. :D
-Like I said, it's the 'cool' elements of Star Wars, repackaged to attract those who are borderline fans.
Darth Talon = Twi'Lek + Darth Maul
All of these factors make me think of it [Calimshan] as a fallen, decadent empire slowly crumbling to ruin, and wallowing in its own corruption.
--Bleh, it's garbage...As someone I know aptly put it, they took all of the 'cool' elements of Star Wars, and put it all together in a big glob to attract the newer generation...Sound familiar?
I have to respectfully disagree. I like the plot and Star Wars has always been ripe for storylines in different eras, unlike some other places
Rhee, you should visit Patagonia in Argentina then, 9/10 of it are dessert, it's one of the oldest pieces of land on earth, they emerged from water in the precambric.
I'm sure I would love that.
There's lots of different types of desert to enjoy, from this -
To this -
To this -
You can get a wicked tan in that last one. :D
Ouch! Wicked is right, I avoid tanning and always wear sunscreen.;)
But I'd love to visit those places!
-I like the last one. One of the places I want to go to before I die is Egypt.
I always wanted to go there, myself...I'd be afraid to at this time, though, thanks to the current political climate.
I always wanted to go there, myself...I'd be afraid to at this time, though, thanks to the current political climate.
What's wrong with Egypt?!
Sounds like a place ripe for invasion if you ask me.
Sounds like foreshadowing to me.
Duh duh duh...
As to the foreshadowing... I care not. Calimshan is Eternal in my eyes. :P :D
All it would take is a decent leader (ie a Sulieman) to turn them around and get them back on track -- or a decent conquerer (ie an Alexander) to have yourself a nice little duchy.
I'd guess that whole violent Islamic fundamentalism going on throughout the whole region is what Rino is referring to, though I thought that Egypt had calmed down quite a bit compared to a few years ago.
Yeah, I hear that it's one of many places that probably isn't the most welcoming towards Americans/Westerners. Then again, I haven't looked into it too much.
That, and Empires of the Sands are two of my favorite 2e products - I've read through them several times.
And I've always had the impression that Calimshan's main source of wealth was bleeding their 'colonies' dry. They may still have an enormous amount of wealth leftover from their Imperial days, but its not like it was in its 'glory days'.
Also, from the Waterdeep stuff, I got the impression that Caliushite ships were unwelcome in the north (although perhaps not really 'chased off'). Calishite ships heading north to WD half the time are really heading for Skullport, to engage in the slave trade - something almost every northern nation finds detestable.
Not saying that the Amnish or Tethyr navies would be actively attacking Calishite vessels, but I truly doubt either would go to the aid of one if it was beleagured by pirates. The Amnish are also VERY protective of their sea interests (with Maztican trade being foremost), and they would not be above giving 'letters of mark' to pirates-turned-Privateer to harass Calishites (and everyone else). Of course, most of the pirates sided with the Sothillisians, but now that Amn is working with the Ogre army against the Tlincallis, I would assume the pirate part of that organization would be willing to make deals as well.
Calimshan has had very bad relations with many groups, because of their desire to dominate everyone. Whereas the Shining Lands (lead by Durpar) have been expanding out of the southern sea, and taking quite a bit of trade away from calimshan (they even travel to Maztica!), not to mention most Zakharan and a good deal of Kara-Turan merchandise goes through THEM, not Calimshan.
Looking at the maps, it looks like at least half of Calimshan is desert, but then again, they lost quite a bit of territory when the maps were shrunk for 3e.
All of these factors make me think of it as a fallen, decadent empire slowly crumbling to ruin, and wallowing in its own corruption.
And last but not least, I remember reading something about their navy being practically non-existant these days. I think Stigger found the pertinent quote (I'm no where near my sources this last week). I recall them having to burn their own navy at least once, and some plagues did a number on their sea power as well. Recalling from Stigger's quote that they have been making a VERY poor attempt to rebuild their power, but most of the ships aren't even sea-worthy! Its all just for show.
At least thats the gist I get - I'm just not seeing them as a major player anymore. they are being superceeded by youger nations like Amn and Durpar.
Now i'm confused. Are you stating your personal pespective or what you read in guidebooks? Because what you wrote disagrees with most guidebooks i've read so far.
Calimshan main souces of wealth are it's productivity(flood river plains and marching mountains mines), craftmanship produtcs(8 ancient cities with a mostly freemen craftsman), and obviously, trade(crossroads of trade between tashalar,lapal league, shaar, lake of steam, explorers of chult, some zakharan trade and trade way). Sure that it might not be as rich as in the coramshan and shoon days, but still wealthier than most. For confirmation FRCS and EotSS.
As for the trade with waterdeep, sure that waterdeep people dont particulaly like calimshites, but since when did dislikes got in the way of trade? Note that a lord of waterdeep is a calimshite(sammer), a lord of new waterdeep is a calimshite, calimshites are depicted in several novels participating in nobility parties in waterdeep, and the whole ''calimport is waterdeep dark twin'' thing wouldnt make sense if the two cultures were apart. Dont actually see any references of great calimshite slave trade in skullport. Why skullport? Isnt it a like too far away? Besides if waterdeep was that staunch on the antislave thing, how did they allow a thayan enclave?
Amnians and tehyrians wouldnt help a balduran ship either. In the navy aspect, both are minimal(the sum of both navies isnt even half of the nallojal). As for pirates, since most notorious pirates are in league with the rundeen, and they have many trade investments in calimshan, dant think preying on there own ship to make any sense. Since calimshites are more within the ''bribe logic''(since the're society finds it normal), the other way around is more likely.
The bad relations of calimshan with others originate more because of calimshite superioraty attitude and demeaning of women. Only Tethyr and Amn might hold reserves because of historical reasons. Since the fall of the Shoon that calimshan doesnt try to conquer other nations by force. Zakkharaan trade with calimshan hardly bear mention in EotSS, so its loss is very irrelevant. Most trade is in the shining sea and and sea of swords, and i dont find reasonable that Durpar could compete that far away.As for trade with Kara-tur, sorry, but that a matter for thesk, not calimshan.
Are you using 3E maps?
Your thinking of Djeenspool ruled Calimshan.
By the end of the Djeenspool rule, most of the fleet was in bad shape. Check EotSS for navy updates. As for plagues efect, well, by AGHotR, calimshan's got more plagues in its history that most os faerun combined so...dont think thats anything new.
Sounds like a place ripe for invasion if you ask me.
Yeah, I hear that it's one of many places that probably isn't the most welcoming towards Americans/Westerners. Then again, I haven't looked into it too much.
I have to say, having travelled a little bit in the Muslim world, that generally speaking, people are actually quite welcoming to Americans, in particular. Beyond the very deeply ingrained sense of hospitality that has been instilled in the Muslim world for centuries, the populace has the ability to distinguish between the U.S. government and the American individual.
Even more specifically, a friend of mine got in a bit of legal trouble in Morocco. Because my Arabic is nearly non-existent and my French is pretty rusty, they didn't realize who we were. They thought we were British. As soon as they realized that we were from the good ole' US of A, their attitude improved remarkably.
In addition, my understanding from people who are regularly traveling and working in Egypt, specifically, is that it is very safe and welcoming at this time - there was a spate of attacks a few years back, but the government cracked down on that very quickly, being so dependent on tourism.
Yeah, I hear that it's one of many places that probably isn't the most welcoming towards Americans/Westerners. Then again, I haven't looked into it too much.
My cousin's family's been there a few time, and it's apparently a very nice place! They were more afraid of scorpions and crocodiles than terrorists ;p
Maybe it would be a good place to travel to, after all (although, I have to say there are other places I'd like to visit first, even within my own country).Now i'm confused. Are you stating your personal pespective or what you read in guidebooks?
Don't we all?
Because what you wrote disagrees with most guidebooks i've read so far.
According to your opinion of the information you are reading. I've gotten into several arguments like this before, with people I admire (like GothicDan and Lord Karsus), and sometimes its almost like we are reading different versions of the same book.
You and I can read the same exact paragraph, and certain things will jump out at you, and certain things at me, and we will both have walked away with a completely different take on the information presented.
Maybe my way of seeing Calimshan is the way I wish to picture it, as your way is the way you do. Only Steven Schend knows exaclty what he had in mind as he typed each sentence, and EVERYTHING is open to interpretation.
You see 600 (?) ships, I see "barely Seaworthy". Ergo, you see a tremendous navy, and I see one that would sink if it ever got out of sight of the coast.
And the maps I use are 3M - MINE. :D
Either way, I'm sure something has happened to Calimshan in the last hundred years, and we are both incorrect come 4e.
According to your opinion of the information you are reading. I've gotten into several arguments like this before, with people I admire (like GothgicDan and Lord Karsus), and sometimes its almost like we are reading different versions of the same book.
-They like me! They really, really like me!
-I'm was always right, though. ;) :P
D%
1-40 Torso
41-60 Arm
61-80 Leg
81-100 Head
Torso
1-25 Broken rib (Bludgeoning only) -2 dex, -2 on attack and damage rolls for d2+1 weeks
26-50 Broken shoulder
(Bludgeoning only) Arm useless, -2 dex for d3+2 weeks
51-75 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
76-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
Arm
1-18 Arm chopped off (Slashing only) Arm gone
19-36 Arm broken (Bludgeoning only) Arm useless for d3+2 weeks
37-54 Hand chopped off (Slashing only) Cannot use weapons or shields, can use buckler
55-72 Hand broken (Bludgeoning) Cannot use for weapons for d3+2
81-90 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
91-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
Leg
1-10 Leg chopped off (Slashing only) Cannot walk.
19-36 Leg broken (Bludgeoning only) Cannot walk d6-3 weeks
37-54 Foot chopped off (Slashing only) Cannot walk
55-72 Foot broken (Bludgeoning) Speed reduced by ¾, cannot run
81-90 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
91-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
Head
1-10 Teeth knocked in (Bludgeoning only) 20% chance of fizzling spells, nauseated
11-28 Concussion (Bludgeoning only) -2 on Concentration checks, base attack bonus, 20% chance of miscasting spells, Reflex, Will, and Stunned, then Dazed. If doesn’t rest after combat, -5. 2% chance of permanent deafness, 50% chance of d6 rounds of deafness.
29-46 Eat cut off (Slashing only) -1 Listen
47-64 Eye lost (Slashing & Piercing only) -2 dex, d2 months regenerates one, then once more.
65-82 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
83-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
83-100 Knocked unconscious (Bludgeoning) Knocked out for damage times 2 rounds
i've also made a new money system, seen as it got annoying carrying gold just to pay for a day at an inn.
Copper penny: 1 cp
Copper piece: 5 cp
Copper shilling: 1 sp
Silver penny: 5 sp
Silver shilling 1 gp
Silver crown: 5 gp
Gold shilling: 10 gp
Gold crown 50 gp
Gold mark 100 gp
Also, made a rather unrefined chart for when someone scores a critical and then rolls another critical when confirming it. This makes giving adventurers scars and stuff a bit easier, and actually giving the baddie a scar across the face with a rapier is pretty damn cool. Used the alternate damage thingy in DMG as the base for it and then added some stuff. it's still pretty much unfinished, because i've not bothered adding all the skill penalties etc.
D%
1-40 Torso
41-60 Arm
61-80 Leg
81-100 Head
Torso
1-25 Broken rib (Bludgeoning only) -2 dex, -2 on attack and damage rolls for d2+1 weeks
26-50 Broken shoulder
(Bludgeoning only) Arm useless, -2 dex for d3+2 weeks
51-75 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
76-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
Arm
1-18 Arm chopped off (Slashing only) Arm gone
19-36 Arm broken (Bludgeoning only) Arm useless for d3+2 weeks
37-54 Hand chopped off (Slashing only) Cannot use weapons or shields, can use buckler
55-72 Hand broken (Bludgeoning) Cannot use for weapons for d3+2
81-90 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
91-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
Leg
1-10 Leg chopped off (Slashing only) Cannot walk.
19-36 Leg broken (Bludgeoning only) Cannot walk d6-3 weeks
37-54 Foot chopped off (Slashing only) Cannot walk
55-72 Foot broken (Bludgeoning) Speed reduced by ¾, cannot run
81-90 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
91-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
Head
1-10 Teeth knocked in (Bludgeoning only) 20% chance of fizzling spells, nauseated
11-28 Concussion (Bludgeoning only) -2 on Concentration checks, base attack bonus, 20% chance of miscasting spells, Reflex, Will, and Stunned, then Dazed. If doesn’t rest after combat, -5. 2% chance of permanent deafness, 50% chance of d6 rounds of deafness.
29-46 Eat cut off (Slashing only) -1 Listen
47-64 Eye lost (Slashing & Piercing only) -2 dex, d2 months regenerates one, then once more.
65-82 Injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 1 hp until treated
83-100 Severely injured (Slashing & Piercing only) Lose 2 hp until treated
83-100 Knocked unconscious (Bludgeoning) Knocked out for damage times 2 rounds
Dude seriously, Bad A$$!!!
I was thinking of doing something like this myself, but going slightly smaller by using a d6. This is WAAAY better and more indepth. Awesome, truly!
Readied Actions. I haven't used one since playing in 3e. I just don't see the point. I know some cool stuff can come from readied actions like Counterspelling, but WHY???! If you attempt to counterspell, you 1st have to make a Spellcraft check, then if the check is successful you have to hope the spell being cast is something you've prepared or know OR you can use Dispel Magic which is chancy at best. Wouldn't it be far more effective to wait and then blast the guy with a direct damage spell when he started casting to make him attempt a Concentration DC save 15+ damage done? Also, setting against a charge. I don't know about you, but if some guy is just waiting, standing there with a pike pointed in my direction, Gods know i'm not going to charge him. Readied actions should ALL be switched to immediate actions and let the good times roll.
D%
1-40 Torso
41-60 Arm
61-80 Leg
81-100 Head
-I don't even know how I aquired it, but I had a die that looks very much like a d12, but instead of numbers, it has body parts- head, torso, left arm, right leg, etc...
-What's so appealing about deserts, anyway? I'm not being judgemental, I'm just wondering. I mean, I prefer warmer temperatures, and I'm the kind of person that, when the temperature is 80, I'm not turning on the AC just yet (maybe a little bit, right before going to sleep). Deserts, though, they just seem too hot. And then, of course, there are scorpions and rattlesnakes.
Well if your from the woodsy east coast, the stark difference in scenery is different and refreshing, more to the point, the lack of humidity is awesome. a 100 degree day in Nevada feels like an 80 degree day in Virginia - in general I find an arid environment (dangers of dehydration aside) to be more comfortable to live in. As much as I like my home state, I'd seriously give alot of consideration to moving there when I'm old enough to retire.
Of course this has nothing to do with my visit to a "gentlemans" club and having the good fortune to run into a girl named Karma
Well if your from the woodsy east coast, the stark difference in scenery is different and refreshing, more to the point, the lack of humidity is awesome. a 100 degree day in Nevada feels like an 80 degree day in Virginia - in general I find an arid environment (dangers of dehydration aside) to be more comfortable to live in. As much as I like my home state, I'd seriously give alot of consideration to moving there when I'm old enough to retire.
-Dry heat is very different from...humid heat(?), sure. When I went to Myrtle Beach a few years ago, the first time I've ever been down south, it was a very different feeling. But, 100 degrees in Nevada feels like 80 degrees in the Northeast? Eh...I'm not saying you are lying, but...
Of course this has nothing to do with my visit to a "gentlemans" club and having the good fortune to run into a girl named Karma
-No, of course not...
-I don't even know how I aquired it, but I had a die that looks very much like a d12, but instead of numbers, it has body parts- head, torso, left arm, right leg, etc...
My group has two of those.
My group has two of those.
-Do you know what it's from, or anything? As I said, where I got it from, I have no clue. That's one of those things where someone elses' die accidentally finds it's way into your bag...
-Do you know what it's from, or anything? As I said, where I got it from, I have no clue. That's one of those things where someone elses' die accidentally finds it's way into your bag...
"Accidentally";p
Are they made from human bones? Because that would make them DM dice.
But any input on the system i'm using?
"Accidentally";p
-Yes, accidentally. Are there actually people petty enough out there to steal other peoples' dice?
But any input on the system i'm using?
-Well, as I said, if you could find one of the dice I was talking about, you could eliminate that first percentile roll with a "novelty" die roll.
-Dry heat is very different from...humid heat(?), sure. When I went to Myrtle Beach a few years ago, the first time I've ever been down south, it was a very different feeling. But, 100 degrees in Nevada feels like 80 degrees in the Northeast? Eh...I'm not saying you are lying, but...
You wouldn't think, but it is. I get a kick out of some of the people in my company that live in the SW and like to tell you what heat is, till they come to the the SE and step off the plane on a nice 100-110 degree day with the humidity so thick in the air you can cut it with a knife. I'm told its worse in Florida and around the Gulf, but I've never been further south than South Carolina and I find the weather there to be not unlike Virginia.
I'll tell you what's shocking to me though, heading north in the early summer and having to put on a coat while eyeballing some snow still on the ground... wierd stuff man... just wierd!
-Yes, accidentally. Are there actually people petty enough out there to steal other peoples' dice?
Well I have to admit to stealing my old DM's D20, it was called the "magic twenty" because it rolled 20's all the time, talk aobut pure hell when he was using something like a vorpal weapon...
... or criting on you. It was ignoble, but damnit! I had to sully my soul for the good of the party
I'll tell you what's shocking to me though, heading north in the early summer and having to put on a coat while eyeballing some snow still on the ground... wierd stuff man... just wierd!
-That is crazy. I've never experienced that myself. In the winter, it's damn cold, and in the summer, it's damn hot.
Well I have to admit to stealing my old DM's D20, it was called the "magic twenty" because it rolled 20's all the time, talk aobut pure hell when he was using something like a vorpal weapon...
-Well, that's completely understandable. It was a life or death matter.
LK, you're thinking i should change my percentage system to a d12 system?
The reason for the torso being twice as likely to be hit as any other body part is due to its size, and thinking it's realistic.
LK, you're thinking i should change my percentage system to a d12 system?
-No, I'm just saying that if you were to ever obtain the novelty "body part" die, like the one I have, you could eliminate the percentile roll with a "body part" roll.
You wouldn't think, but it is. I get a kick out of some of the people in my company that live in the SW and like to tell you what heat is, till they come to the the SE and step off the plane on a nice 100-110 degree day with the humidity so thick in the air you can cut it with a knife. I'm told its worse in Florida and around the Gulf, but I've never been further south than South Carolina and I find the weather there to be not unlike Virginia.
I'll tell you what's shocking to me though, heading north in the early summer and having to put on a coat while eyeballing some snow still on the ground... wierd stuff man... just wierd!
I've lived under both kinds of heat in my life and I agree with you.
Right, me and my brother are finally fed up with the Wizard and Sorcerer spell system. We've now desided to make a new one; a better one!
0 level spells - give half a level
1 level spells- give one level
So, a first level wizard with 1 bonus spell can cast
0 level - 3
1 level - 2
Total of 3 1/2 levels.
Wizards can cast ALL spells in their spellbook. Sorcerers get more spell levels in total, so fairly equal.
Casting a spell costs levels equal to its level (0 cost half a leve), pluss metamagic modifiers etc.
Say said wizard casts 3 magic missiles and a ray of frost. This means he's got no levels left. He then meets a nasty kobold intent on exploring his guts with a spear. But in my rules, he can make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level + previous attempts). He tries casting a magic missile (DC 11), making a Fort save. He manages this. He casts magic missile and kills the kobold.
Said wizard then gets attacked in an alley later that day. He wins iniative and decides to cast magic missile again. DC is now 12 due to casting a spell over his normal limit. He fails the save, but has to go through with it. From now on, he's fatigued and takes d6 subdual damage per spell level (only 1 d6 in this case) which dissapears once he has had an hour of rest. Said wizard's lucky, only taking 3 damage and kills the thug.
A few minutes later, he sees a woman being accosted by a man in an alleyway. Gathering the last of his strength, he casts magic missile (Fort save 13) and fails. The magic missile takes down the man, but said wizard takes 4 damage and collapses (due to the damage), exhausted. An hour after the fatigue incident, he recovers, goes back to fatigued and then rests.
Feedback?
Wizards get to learn more spell (diversity), but sorceror's get more Spell points (power), which balances things quite a bit.
Neither one has to memorize spells - they know how to cast them from memory. I also allow them to cast spells they don't know and spells higher level then they can handle, from 'found' spellbooks, but with a lot of penalties. Lets just say that casting a spell too high for you could prove VERY detrimental if you fail your roll.
I also used a similar system of over-taxing yourself, using HP as spell points, so you could literally 'cast yourself to death' (although I count Con as additional HP - you passout at 0 HP, and then the rest of the damage you take goes against Con, thus eliminating all the 'negative HP' silliness).
That system worked fine until someone learned Vampiric Touch and started using the Townsfolk as Mana batteries.
I gave my son the system to try out, but replaced the HP spell cost with spell points, and thus-far he has had no problems. I need to figure out how to put the 'fatigue' aspect back in, maybe by using BOTH HP and SP, but that might be a little too much bookeeping.
This is what I came up with:
Show
Total Mana points are found by adding the following number with your (lev. x Int mod.). Spells cost (1 + Spell Lev.) to cast. Specialists may cast spell of their specialty school for 1 point of Mana less then normal. Casters get their Con. Modifier in Mana points back for every 10 minutes of rest.
1st = 5 ................ 10th = 63 ................ 19th = 200
2nd = 8 ............... 11th = 74 ................ 20th = 220
3rd = 11 .............. 12th = 87 ................ 21st = 240
4th = 16 .............. 13th = 100 .............. 22nd = 265
5th = 20 .............. 14th = 115 .............. 23rd = 290
6th = 27 .............. 15th = 130 .............. 24th = 320
7th = 34 .............. 16th = 147 .............. 25th = 350
8th = 43 .............. 17th = 164 .............. 26th = 385
9th = 52 .............. 18th = 182 .............. 27th = 420
Additionally, a caster may cast a spell that cost more points then he has left by using HP instead. A caster may cause himself to pass out by doing so.
Total Mana points are found by adding the following number with your (lev. x Int mod.). Spells cost (1 + Spell Lev.) to cast. Specialists may cast spell of their specialty school for 1 point of Mana less then normal. Casters get their Con. Modifier in Mana points back for every 10 minutes of rest.
1st = 5 ................ 10th = 63 ................ 19th = 200
2nd = 8 ............... 11th = 74 ................ 20th = 220
3rd = 11 .............. 12th = 87 ................ 21st = 240
4th = 16 .............. 13th = 100 .............. 22nd = 265
5th = 20 .............. 14th = 115 .............. 23rd = 290
6th = 27 .............. 15th = 130 .............. 24th = 320
7th = 34 .............. 16th = 147 .............. 25th = 350
8th = 43 .............. 17th = 164 .............. 26th = 385
9th = 52 .............. 18th = 182 .............. 27th = 420
Additionally, a caster may cast a spell that cost more points then he has left by using HP instead. A caster may cause himself to pass out by doing so.
I also added HP as SP for those who want to overcast but if you get to negatives more than two times in a week you permanently (unrestorable by any mean short of a Wish spell) loose 1 point of CON.
Unearthed Arcana also give rules for Improving Metamagic. In my game use use a mix, you can Metamagic any spell you have memorized, but it costs you at least a full round action, or you can prepare it with metamagics and cast it at the standar speed (unless they are quickened).
My group has never got to 0 Spellpoints because we are very conservative about our spells. Lowest I ran was at 8th lvl after five Dimension Door spells in a row and a day with much spell usage.
LK, the rules as they are in Unearthed Arcana for Spellpoints work fine, different classes have different spellpoint pools (Sorcerer has the biggest and Ranger/Paladin the smallest).
-In addition to MT, how does that book handle what spells a Sorcerer/Wizard can cast? Same as it is now, in the PHB?
When I get home I'll pass the tables that compose the system.
-No need. ;)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm
I like the system alot, gives wizards more diversity and sorcerer's ALOT of spells/day. Though I allow 0 lvl spells for free. Honestly, i don't see too many wizards past lvl 2 or 3 rockin' out with ray of frost each encounter. Also, I re-did cure minor wounds to only allow healing up to 0 hit points and for stabilization. Works out pretty well and pretty balanced, mostly cuz the enemies have the ability too :D. Another thing I got rid of was identify. With the spell costing 50g an item and an hour to cast it, it's just not user friendly. Now, they have to make a Spellcraft check to figure out it's abilities, functions, etc.
Though I allow 0 lvl spells for free. Honestly, i don't see too many wizards past lvl 2 or 3 rockin' out with ray of frost each encounter. Also, I re-did cure minor wounds to only allow healing up to 0 hit points and for stabilization.
That's what Paizo did with Pathfinder.
Works out pretty well and pretty balanced, mostly cuz the enemies have the ability too :D. Another thing I got rid of was identify. With the spell costing 50g an item and an hour to cast it, it's just not user friendly. Now, they have to make a Spellcraft check to figure out it's abilities, functions, etc.
Analyze Dweomer is a great replacement for Identify, it has a Focus component instead of Material and you can analyze magic items en mase.
I like the system alot, gives wizards more diversity and sorcerer's ALOT of spells/day. Though I allow 0 lvl spells for free. Honestly, i don't see too many wizards past lvl 2 or 3 rockin' out with ray of frost each encounter.
-I've found a new love for Daze, so I think from now on, it's mandatory for any of my Arcane casters. ;)
-I've found a new love for Daze, so I think from now on, it's mandatory for any of my Arcane casters. ;)
Me too.
Although, my character is a bard.Choke
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature of 4 HD or less
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
As a vice like grip tighten around your throat making it hard to breathe, you fight for air causing a long hard fit of coughing making it impossible to talk.
This chokes a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it can't take any verbal actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A choked subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage.
One of my favorite 0 level spells is Choke. A new spell, not listed in any book.
Choke
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature of 4 HD or less
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Fort negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
As a vice like grip tighten around your throat making it hard to breathe, you fight for air causing a long hard fit of coughing making it impossible to talk.
This chokes a humanoid creature with 4 or fewer Hit Dice so that it can't take any verbal actions. Humanoids of 5 or more HD are not affected. A choked subject is not stunned, so attackers get no special advantage.
-Certainly masses up spellcasters. And, Bards. But, Daze seems superior to this spell, based on the fact that this still allows those who are being choked to take an action. If used in conjunction, though...
But it does have a certain Darth Vader cool to it...
Oh, i messed up with the spell. It's casting time should be 1 swift action (changed above). It's really intended to subdue guards and/or stop people from screaming for help. But i can see it as totally messing with wizards, considering it's a Fort save and all
.*Choke*
You'll note that I added in a 'quick recovery' system for Spell points with that table, because my son is more used to the mana systems in Video/Computer games, where you rest awhile to get it back. Personally, I think that makes a lot more sense then the 'per encounter' method proposed by 4e, and accomplishing pretty much the same thing.
As for spell lists, I used them as-is from the PHB. As for SP for Wizards and Sorcerors - my son only uses one magic-casting class, so it's not represented by that table. In the HP system I used way back, I had Sorcerors get more HP, so it worked out that they could cast MORE spells, but their spell list was much smaller (as it is in RAW). The number of spells available to both classes remained the same as per the rules, and Wizards still had to memorize the spells they wished to cast.
For HP (which I used as SP also), Wizards got a D6, and Sorceors got a D6+2 (all my classes get a D6 and a bonus - the D6 represented basic human development, and the add representing any physical training granted by the class, which I feel should be static).
This made the Wizard more verstaile, but the Sorceror more powerful as far as spell-hurling went. Also, Wizards could cast spells from their spellbook that they didn't bother to memorize, but it would take one round per level, which meant it wasn't very useful in combat situations, but still possible. I never liked that D&D casters didn't ever use books WHILE casting, so I added that part in for spells not memorized (or even ones from found tomes). 4e tried to capture that feeling as well, with the use of 'ritual spells', but once again, I feel my solution was simpler and worked with 3e.
Using a combination of systems to represet the Sorceror and Wizard would also work well, LK. Let us know how that is working for you.
Oh, i messed up with the spell. It's casting time should be 1 swift action (changed above). It's really intended to subdue guards and/or stop people from screaming for help. But i can see it as totally messing with wizards, considering it's a Fort save and all
-Alright, that makes it a bit more useful.
Using a combination of systems to represet the Sorceror and Wizard would also work well, LK. Let us know how that is working for you.
-First, I need to find someone to play a Sorcerer in my campaign. But, once I do...Er, if I do...;)