Any largely lawful neutral diety might have used a few of the huntermachines for enforcement in Torils past. Gond might make them for the other dieties as a service, as he would be the only god with enough affinity with Mechanus to make working inevitable servants. Likely he gets orders for inevitables from the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods, Hoar, Tyr, Torm, Mystra, the Moradinsamman, the Red Knight, Tempus and Waukeen.
I also read a dungeon once which used a cooky renegade inevitable "marshall" who was using his intimidation skills to "help" frontier societies "establish the rules". This inevitable got insane and broke down in the head trying to piece together the motives of a swindler philosopher. He decided that instead of having the laws upholding for the rights of indiviuals he believed every person should be seen as subject to the societies rights. Only the society should be made more like the onces of Mechanus, ridgid and always correct. He brutally corrected everyone in a frontier town, the weak, children and old women alike, and savored his correction work and daily devizing more complex rules for mundane things. He hates "investigative adventurers" who just upset the beauty of the law of his frontier enterprizes.
Gond might make them for the other dieties as a service, as he would be the only god with enough affinity with Mechanus to make working inevitable servants. Likely he gets orders for inevitables from the Mulhorandi and Untheric gods, Hoar, Tyr, Torm, Mystra, the Moradinsamman, the Red Knight, Tempus and Waukeen.
-I like that explanation, allowing Mechanus to be under the domain of the Modron.
On Mechanus; do the Modrons allow for redesign? They constantly are redesigning Mechanus and some of its parts and themselves, right?
On Mechanus; do the Modrons allow for redesign? They constantly are redesigning Mechanus and some of its parts and themselves, right?
-In so much as they are following blueprints and the "grand design" and things like that, I guess.
It actually acts as the villain for the adventure.
-Well, in this case, it's really the good guy. I mean, it's just trying to right a wrong and all...
In the Utter East thread, we figured that Maruts would show up in the Utter East, due to the Hindu and technological influences on the area, by way of the Clockwork Nirvana Of Mechanus.
Although Dweomerheart blew up, it would not be surprising if many inevitables escaped destruction due to being on the material plane at the time or because they were stationed or traveling outside of Dweomerheart when it exploded.
We know that Rudra was the actual inventor of the inevitables. Mystra must have somehow come by the secret of their manufacture from Rudra, perhaps as a gift? Or in payment of a debt? The Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix says that Rudra will often give one of her maruts to a fellow power as a gift for services rendered.
Rudra has a presence in the Realms as a god of the Kuong Kingdom in Malatra, a member of the Lords of Creation pantheon (see the Kara-Tur box set volume II p.105). The Lords of Creation pantheon is said to have come to Malatra from a southwestern culture from beyond the bounds of Kara-Tur. So presumably the Lords of Creation (including Rudra) are known on another continent, perhaps Katashaka, or one of the many islands or land masses between Katashaka and Kara-Tur. One could then easily imagine that inevitables serve Rudra and perhaps others of the Lords of Creation, and might be found in those regions of Toril where Rudra and the Lords of Creation hold sway.
I like to think that Gond also had the secret of making inevitables, and as such there may be some stationed in his domain of Wonderhome in the House of Knowledge.
Mechanus exists in the Cosmology, and Inevitables hail from Mechanus.
Mechanus doesn't actually exist in the Forgotten Realms cosmology. It is part of the Great Wheel cosmology of Greyhawk.
Greyhawk is another universe that does have connections to the Realms by means of portal, spelljamming, travel through the Plane of Shadow, the World Serpent Inn, the Infinite Staircase, and via Sigil to name a few. But strictly speaking, while Mechanus exists within the same multiverse as the Realms, it is not however contained within the same cosmology as the Realms.
At least not according to official current canon. But then again, the 4e Manual of the Planes is due out next month, and we don't know yet if it will augment our knowledge of how the Greyhawk cosmology is linked to the Realms cosmology.
In the Utter East discussion, we originated the Lords Of Creation in the Utter East, it being roughly south-west of Malatra. We could already place an India-based culture there, what with Faces Of Deception and the nearby Shining Lands. Only Indra, Garuda and Yama were mentioned by name; Rudra and the others were more implied or suggested (as in 'use Indian deities').
No creator is given for the Inevitables in Core D&D; it's only by reference to RW mythology that we can link the Maruts and the Clockwork Nirvana to the Lords Of Creation (ie Indian mythology).
FR used to be part of the Great Wheel; change of editions doesn't change that. And enough references to the Wheel appeared during the 3.x days of the Tree to suggest it still was even then. I don't think Inevitables have appeared in 4e yet, so I suspect the OP is asking with reference to the past.
(BTW, actual Greyhawk is dead to 4th Edition. The core setting is generally called Points Of Light and only shares some gods and generic stuff.)
Didn't Mystryl used to rely "largely" on inevitables?
I don't think so, since Mystryl was CN.
I meant the reinvigorated one after Karsus' Folly, who stopped 10th level spellcasting. She could have probably used the service of inevitables to hunt down anyone objecting to her new magic laws and weave.
So the very first Goddes of Mysteries was CN? I like that, more wildmagic like...So she was a force of chaos during most of the history of Toril..
Eh? I thought she was LN.
I meant the reinvigorated one after Karsus' Folly, who stopped 10th level spellcasting. She could have probably used the service of inevitables to hunt down anyone objecting to her new magic laws and weave.
Mystryl was CN => Mystra 1.0 was LN => Mystra (Ariel Manx) 2.0 was NG
Mechanus doesn't actually exist in the Forgotten Realms cosmology. It is part of the Great Wheel cosmology of Greyhawk.
-As Steven Schend commented, "You can state that "this is how it is now" and claim that "it's always been like this;" that's fine from a game rule POV, but as for the lore already established, it can't be dismissed so readily. Thus, within the game, yes, [issue that was the topic]. However, as a matter of story and narrative and lore, there's differences that won't affect your game at all ([such as issue that was the topic]) that can be left alone.
No creator is given for the Inevitables in Core D&D; it's only by reference to RW mythology that we can link the Maruts and the Clockwork Nirvana to the Lords Of Creation (ie Indian mythology).
Not so. When first introduced in the 1e Manual of the Planes in the original description for maruts it says "These are servants of the Power Rudra and are usually found on his disk in Nirvana." Then later in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix in the entry on Maruts it says: "Maruts are created directly from the will of Rudra, the lndian god of disease."..."Often the Indian god will give a marut to a fellow power as a gift for services rendered. In fact, Rudra has found times when it serves her ends to assist the cause5 of good. In those times, her maruts have been found in the direct service of a good deity. All maruts were originally created by Rudra, but have changed hands a thousand times since."
Planescape Monstrous Compendium I reaffirms this lore stating "All maruts were created directly from the will of Rudra but have changed hands many times since." It also tells a really cool story about how an arrogant prince during a time of plague shut himself up in his palace to deny Rudra. The prince carried on with dances and parties in the style of the Masque of the Red Death while the folk in the city below grew ill and died. Then he discovered a statue of a Marut down in his treasure vault from the time of his grandfather and hauled it up to display before his guests. He mocked Rudra and with great hubris declared his triumph over death. Upon which the marut stirred and spoke to the prince, informing him that the decrees of Fate are set aside by no man. By the time the marut finished speaking, it's silvery breath had taken the lives of all within the hall...
Maruts were the only inevitables up until 3e when we are introduced to other types of inevitables and the 3e Manual of the Planes does say that it is unknown who created the first inevitable and that even the inevitables themselves claim ignorance as to their origin. The Ecology of the Inevitables article in Dragon #341 says that inevitables first appeared around 10,000 years ago when an alliance of powers or other planar races united to exterminate the aphanacts. Shortly after that the first maruts began to emerge from creche-forges in Mechanus, but the identity of their creator is lost to history.
With respect to the Realms, I assume that Rudra is an interloper god, having migrated either from Earth or from the Greyhawk cosmology into the Realms to service a group of worshipers that came to the Realms by portal or planar rift, or perhaps brought as slaves by the Imaskari. My assumption is that Rudra gifted a marut to Mystra (or Mystryl). Finding them useful for enforcing the laws of magic and fate, she crafted (or had Gond fashion for her) her own creche-forges in Dweomerheart. At least that's my take on things.
FR used to be part of the Great Wheel; change of editions doesn't change that. And enough references to the Wheel appeared during the 3.x days of the Tree to suggest it still was even then.
Third edition elaborated on our understanding of the relationship of the Realms Great Tree cosmology to Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology. In 3e sources we learn that they are not part of the same universe but are closely tied together. Greyhawk is the universe next door. Many of the gods of the Great Wheel have interloped into the Realms cosmology and established domains in the Great Tree. Likewise the gods of Toril have branched out to the Great Wheel and set up domains there as well. There are many links between the two universes, so it is fairly easy to travel between the two. They are in the same multiverse but have separate cosmologies. Ed Greenwood has elaborated on this over at Candlekeep which I take to be the definitive canon pronouncement on the mater:
January 27, 2005: Hello, all. Ed makes reply to kuje31 in the matter of Limbo:
kuje, Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerûn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer).
Real-world Earth (where I live, and Elminster finds me to pass on his tales of this wondrous world we all buy divers products about) is but one of these dozens of Prime Material Planes that Toril is, or has been (and in some cases, will be again, as gates re-open in predetermined cycles or conditions, or are re-opened by the deliberate acts of various beings) directly linked to. (Lest anyone think I’m just concocting this now as a retcon, consider the date on which issue 37 of The Dragon, as it was then, was published.)
The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though it’s very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, I’ll very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect).
Most of these Prime Material Planes (from which various of the “creator races” hail) are similar to Toril in that they are vaguely-medieval-level carbon-based and copious-water environments very like Toril, and one can breathe the air and drink the water if one is a resident of one plane, and steps (via gate/portal or spell) from one to the other. Most of them exist both within their own crystal spheres (Spelljammer again, although in the majority of cases the inhabitants of these alternate Prime Material Planes are entirely unaware of the existence of crystal spheres, spelljammers, phlogiston, et al) and in the cosmology described in the ‘core’ D&D rules, where Limbo very much exists.
So as SERPENT KINGDOMS states, some learned thinkers of Toril believe the batrachi fled to Limbo, where they became known as slaadi.
(I know they exist in Limbo, because circa issue 90 or so of DRAGON, a Canadian freelance designer by the name of Stephen Inniss [creator of the lillend “monster”] and I stopped work on a by-then-300-odd-pages manuscript detailing Limbo, when TSR’s Creative Director told us they wouldn’t be publishing any more planar products. As we all know, TSR later changed its mind.)
Not only are the cosmologies connected via the various gates linking the Prime Material Planes, they’re also linked (Elminster tells me, though word of this may well not have reached those wizards who dwell on a certain coast) through their World Trees and River of Blood/River Styx (which are actually the same thing, exhibiting different properties in different places and cosmologies. I note both “places” and cosmologies because the Styx differs from place to place just within the Outer Planes of the “main D&D” or “Greyhawk” cosmology, bearing alternative names such as the River Lethe.)
Obviously, the slaadi colonized the Supreme Throne from Limbo (where, after all, the githzerai are an everpresent force that opposes them). Cyric is only very recently ascended to godhood (from a cosmic viewpoint), so it’s obvious that the Supreme Throne described in the PLAYER’S GUIDE TO FAERUN is greatly changed from the features a visitor would have found on that plane not very long ago - - when the slaadi probably dominated, hunting other creatures at will.
However, let me state again (for the benefit of all Seekers After Truths with whom you’ll undoubtedly be sharing this) that as with matters divine, matters cosmological are rife with speculation and things most mortals can never know or be sure about. What is “fact” when even a careful observer can’t necessarily perceive things as they are, or know he or she is interpreting what they see correctly? (I recall a humorous animated film, popular in schools in my youth, wherein aliens believe that cars are the rulers of Earth, and humans are merely parasites who occasionally issue forth from them or enter them.) So there you have it: clear as mud in utter darkness when one is submerged in it and blindfolded. :}
So saith Ed.
Inevitables are celestial/divine constructs whose purpose is to enforce the natural laws of the universe. Each type of inevitable is specialized to enforce a specific type of violation.
Zelekhuts are charged with pursuing those who would deny justice, and fugitives who evade rightful punishment.
Varakhuts enforce the divine status quo, they protect gods, try to prevent improper divine ascensions and enforce divine regulations of a more esoteric nature.
Quaruts are charged with protecting no less than time and space itself. Mystra, as guardian of time, would use them to police time portals and prevent history alteration.
Maruts seek to enforce the laws of fate and punish those who would avoid their natural death. Maruts would conceivably aid Talona in her plague spreading endeavors. They might assist Kelemvor in bringing certain fugitive souls to his divine judgment. They certainly attempt to take out lichs and other mages who have extended their lives beyond natural limits.
Kolyaruts enforce contracts and pacts. They might assist fiends in hunting down souls who seek to welsh on a sale. They might punish any who fail to fulfill a bargain struck.
Anhydruts protect desert spaces, defending against farmers, canal builders, vandals and those who would alter the desert environment.
Not so. When first introduced in the 1e Manual of the Planes in the original description for maruts it says "These are servants of the Power Rudra and are usually found on his disk in Nirvana." Then later in the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix in the entry on Maruts it says: "Maruts are created directly from the will of Rudra, the lndian god of disease."..."Often the Indian god will give a marut to a fellow power as a gift for services rendered. In fact, Rudra has found times when it serves her ends to assist the cause5 of good. In those times, her maruts have been found in the direct service of a good deity. All maruts were originally created by Rudra, but have changed hands a thousand times since."
Huh. I thought they were invented with 3rd edition. I'll have to see if I can look all this up. So Maruts were the first (of course, they came from the myth), and the others came later with 3e? Were these Maruts of the earlier editions actual mechanical LN Inevitables as we know them today, or were they different in nature or aspect? (I was wondering if/how they changed from Rudra's day to the 3e version.) Perhaps more like the RW version?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruts
Third edition elaborated on our understanding of the relationship of the Realms Great Tree cosmology to Greyhawk's Great Wheel cosmology. In 3e sources we learn that they are not part of the same universe but are closely tied together. Greyhawk is the universe next door. Many of the gods of the Great Wheel have interloped into the Realms cosmology and established domains in the Great Tree. Likewise the gods of Toril have branched out to the Great Wheel and set up domains there as well. There are many links between the two universes, so it is fairly easy to travel between the two. They are in the same multiverse but have separate cosmologies. Ed Greenwood has elaborated on this over at Candlekeep which I take to be the definitive canon pronouncement on the mater:
Personally, there's too many similarities for me to say that the Tree and the Wheel are separate, else you get a problem with duplication. Most godly planes on the Tree have the same names as their domains on the Wheel (Oghma's House Of Knowledge, Mystra's Dweomerheart, and so on).
It seems pretty obvious to me that the Tree = the Wheel = the Eberronian Orrery and so on - a vast and complex multiverse with myriad ways of viewing it. The Tree is a connection network map, the Wheel is a sorting system like the periodic table, the Eberron Orrery is a measurement of proximity, and so on. The current 4e whatever-it-is is another view; I doubt the planes really changed like, just the popular understanding of.
That's my view, anyway. I take my D&D with a big dose of physics and mythology. :D Anyway, we're getting off topic.
Were these Maruts of the earlier editions actual mechanical LN Inevitables as we know them today, or were they different in nature or aspect? (I was wondering if/how they changed from Rudra's day to the 3e version.) Perhaps more like the RW version?
In the 1e Manual of the Planes maruts are described as: great, red-eyed, unliving giants carved from polished black stone, dressed in gold armor with wide plates on the shoulders and armbands. Alignment is described as lawful with good tendencies.
In the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, the description is almost word for word identical to the MOP's above. In the ecology section though, it adds that they are golems made from pure onyx. The picture is very similar to the 3e depiction.
In the Planescape Appendix, it describes maruts with nearly the same words as the two sources above. It doesn't call them golems, though, but rather "enchanted constructs." It does, however, reiterate that they are made from pure onyx. The Terlizzi illustration is very different, but still within the expectation of what a marut would appear like, but as it was drawn by Terlizzi it looks very much cooler.
I am sure you can find a place for them. Dragon mag had a concept called the "Marshall" who was an evil Inevitable who was in charge of a town. Anyone who strayed out of what he considered the rules or anyone that disrupted order was due for a bad, bad time.