Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 carbon_dragon Jul 28, 2009 13:46:14	I'll concede that any facility can be protected if the defense is determined enough and well enough funded. The magic necessary to do it isn't really defined in D&D 4e but I'll concede that there are probably rituals which can help make any building secure -- spells that defend against intrusion, invisible people, ghosts, tunneling, explosions, teleporting, weather modification, etc. But consider that a castle is designed as a layered set of physical barriers -- the moat, the drawbridge, the gatehouse, the outer walls, the inner bailey, the towers, the arrow slits, etc. But how much actual contribution do those physical barriers make in a world as magic rich as this one? Given that you have all the magical defenses and security team, why not just build a town wall around the town and have a nice house at the center? Is it's value merely cosmetic? The dwarves believe in underground fortification. The elves believe in golden and crystal spires (or communities integrated with the trees). But men seem to want to build castles and what actual use are they? Of course if the average castle builder just hires a level 30 mage who walks up and chants for half an hour and the castle appears, then maybe it doesn't really matter how effective it is as a fortification.
#2 LordManshoon Jul 28, 2009 14:32:22	But consider that a castle is designed as a layered set of physical barriers -- the moat, the drawbridge, the gatehouse, the outer walls, the inner bailey, the towers, the arrow slits, etc. But how much actual contribution do those physical barriers make in a world as magic rich as this one? Not all threats use magic, and not all regions are known for possessing magic-user occupants. An orc horde is a perfect example; you may have a few shamans of Gruumsh tossing in their spells, but the vast majority of the foe is unable to cast the most minor spell. Given that you have all the magical defenses and security team, why not just build a town wall around the town and have a nice house at the center? Is it's value merely cosmetic? The dwarves believe in underground fortification. The elves believe in golden and crystal spires (or communities integrated with the trees). But men seem to want to build castles and what actual use are they? Men are still learning, and castles have managed to work for them so far. The dwarves and elves have had millenia on the humans to hone their defensive architecture.
#3 Stigger Jul 28, 2009 14:54:25	Partially I'd say it could be a matter of psychology as much as it is of defensiveness. In terms of defensiveness, it still retains quite a bit of utility against random marauding beasties, and also makes average security much easier to deal with due to restricted access points. In short, the castle retains its basic defensive advantages in day to day use, even though its not necessarily as effective against the extraordinary threats. But if its coming up against those sorts of threats on a frequent basis, then its defenses will shift accordingly. If its not, the expense often isn't worth it in the short term in relation to cost-benefit ratio. As to psychology... if someone sees a big effin castle, the mind tends to view it as formidable just because of its scale. More measured minds will analyze it more carefully of course, but your average person is going to gape and think little but how impossible attacking such a huge thing is. Veterans of course will have a different view, but if you use a historical model, most soldiers are conscripts, and hardly professional soldiers.
#4 lord_karsus Jul 28, 2009 17:14:14	-Yes, for a few reasons: (A) It can be used as a symbol of status and psychological warfare. Ye olde evil baron lives in that mammoth castle over there, ordering around ye olde peasants? Ye olde peasants will always have him and his abode towering over them. (B) It creates a defensible position, regardless of whether or not it is breached. Even if a castle is breached, there is set way the attackers need to go, before they reach it's heard, and as such, the attackers can be herded where the defenders want them to go (in theory). (C) Not everyone uses magic. In situations like this, a castle is just as effective in Faerûn as they were here.
#5 turbowombat Jul 29, 2009 0:37:25	I view Faerun Castles as retainers of civilization. There are a LOT of very powerful and very evil powers in Faerun that Medieval Western Europe did not have to deal with. In D&D the vast majority of these can take out most civilized guardsmen without hardly trying (Trolls, Ogres, Giants, Umber Hulks, Gorgons, Basalisks etc etc) and the vast majority of them would also be totally trumped by a castle. Of course if one power wants to attack another power and an all out war occurs, castles become much less useful than they would have been in Medieval Europe. But the defensive advantage they yield is far from inconsiderable. Your enemy can't hire roving mercenaries to take you out on a whim, they have to dump some serious planning and resources to even make the effort. In short: they up the anti in a war, whereas in medieval europe they won wars. But if mad wolves attacked your city in medieval europe, some skilled huntsman could deal with it. In D&D if random wild creatures attack your city, you better have a frickin' castle.
#6 Diffan Jul 29, 2009 7:38:45	Of course if one power wants to attack another power and an all out war occurs, castles become much less useful than they would have been in Medieval Europe. But the defensive advantage they yield is far from inconsiderable. Your enemy can't hire roving mercenaries to take you out on a whim, they have to dump some serious planning and resources to even make the effort. In short: they up the anti in a war, whereas in medieval europe they won wars. But if mad wolves attacked your city in medieval europe, some skilled huntsman could deal with it. In D&D if random wild creatures attack your city, you better have a frickin' castle. To give you an example... Our group is about to assault the Twisted Towers of Ashaba and I had thought to do an aerial assault (me on a pegasus, 3 flight spells, and a shadow-tapestry). With how big the towers are, their Zhent sky-mages, catapults, ballista, and ramparts with archers we've decided a more subtle and underground invasion was better suited (or DM would've allowed us, but he made it sorta clear we probably wouldn't make it out alive). So that is how a castle can repel invaders and our sorcerer is like 12th level and has access to some powerful spells.
#7 carbon_dragon Jul 29, 2009 13:59:30	I’ve already conceded that any building, whether it be a fortified manor house or a castle, can be defended. But I’ve also said that as a fortification, a castle doesn’t offer the improvements it does in the “real world” because in the real world it’s a lot harder to breach a castle than it is a house. And in the real world it’s a lot harder and more time consuming to build a castle than a house. So I’m really talking about a value proposition. But we’re not in the real world. So how hard is it to build a castle in Faerun? And once it’s breached, how hard is it to repair a castle in Faerun? Well, let’s take repair first. Actually bringing down a wall is likely to take time even on Faerun. If there is a mage inside with the Make Whole ritual repairing the wall every 10 minutes, or more than one, then the damage to the wall can be repaired far faster than it can be in the real world, including gates and portcullises. One might suppose that a higher level, more expensive ritual could even be produced to repair more of a wall more quickly. Repairing a breach similar to the Lord of the Rings Helms Deep movie breach (and we see here what gunpowder did to castles) might even be possible with such a ritual. Maybe the walls could even be made self-repairing -- you damage one and a few minutes later it is repaired automatically. And what about building? Well, suppose there is a ritual similar to the old Wall of Stone spell. Suppose you could produce a wall of stone of respectable size with a single ritual casting. Suppose further, a “fabricate” ritual could produce non stone objects which could be used as part of construction. Move Earth could be resurrected as a ritual to do the foundation digging. Tenser’s Lift and Floating Disk could conceivably be used to move construction materials and lift them into place. Similarly Stoneshape has potential as a revived ritual for shaping pieces of the castle. Wall of Iron could give you reinforcement if the wall was permanent. If magic could provide a means by which a castle could be built faster and more cheaply than in real life, the value proposition would change completely. If it can be done cheap and fast, why NOT build a castle? It does have some mundane advantages and it’s no harder to defend than the proverbial manor house. One would then presuppose that a castle builder is in fact a Ritualist as well as an architect and/or has ritualists under his command and that there would be a set of rituals of various levels which made castle building fast and cheap. Maybe you can put up a castle faster than a modern builder can put up a building, perhaps in a matter of weeks instead of years. Instead of requiring a Lord with money and hundreds of workers, maybe it just takes a well-funded adventurer and a team of 5-10 builders and ritualists.
#8 Diffan Aug 02, 2009 0:31:13	I’ve already conceded that any building, whether it be a fortified manor house or a castle, can be defended. But I’ve also said that as a fortification, a castle doesn’t offer the improvements it does in the “real world” because in the real world it’s a lot harder to breach a castle than it is a house. And in the real world it’s a lot harder and more time consuming to build a castle than a house. So I’m really talking about a value proposition. But we’re not in the real world. So how hard is it to build a castle in Faerun? And once it’s breached, how hard is it to repair a castle in Faerun? Well that depends on if there is a wizard with the sufficent power to create one around. To use 3.5 rules for example, I'm sure erecting a castle within the country of say...Cormyr (where tons of War Wizards are around) would take less than a week with heavy applicaton of magic. In the real world, putting up a castle took many months to years (if not a decade) if there wasn't a strong peasantry (ie. slaves). Well, let’s take repair first. Actually bringing down a wall is likely to take time even on Faerun. If there is a mage inside with the Make Whole ritual repairing the wall every 10 minutes, or more than one, then the damage to the wall can be repaired far faster than it can be in the real world, including gates and portcullises. One might suppose that a higher level, more expensive ritual could even be produced to repair more of a wall more quickly. Repairing a breach similar to the Lord of the Rings Helms Deep movie breach (and we see here what gunpowder did to castles) might even be possible with such a ritual. Maybe the walls could even be made self-repairing -- you damage one and a few minutes later it is repaired automatically. And what about building? Well, suppose there is a ritual similar to the old Wall of Stone spell. Suppose you could produce a wall of stone of respectable size with a single ritual casting. Suppose further, a “fabricate” ritual could produce non stone objects which could be used as part of construction. Move Earth could be resurrected as a ritual to do the foundation digging. Tenser’s Lift and Floating Disk could conceivably be used to move construction materials and lift them into place. Similarly Stoneshape has potential as a revived ritual for shaping pieces of the castle. Wall of Iron could give you reinforcement if the wall was permanent. If magic could provide a means by which a castle could be built faster and more cheaply than in real life, the value proposition would change completely. If it can be done cheap and fast, why NOT build a castle? It does have some mundane advantages and it’s no harder to defend than the proverbial manor house. One would then presuppose that a castle builder is in fact a Ritualist as well as an architect and/or has ritualists under his command and that there would be a set of rituals of various levels which made castle building fast and cheap. Maybe you can put up a castle faster than a modern builder can put up a building, perhaps in a matter of weeks instead of years. Instead of requiring a Lord with money and hundreds of workers, maybe it just takes a well-funded adventurer and a team of 5-10 builders and ritualists. Well, first we'd have to summarize how much each ritual is going to cost than figure how how many mages it would require to cast that particular ritual. Then you have to assume how much the Mages are going to charge for that specific ritual. You throw in a dozen rituals of varying levels, it'll add up to a lot soon. I think a majority of castles build in Faerun were done the "old fashion" way with masons, engineers, and elbow grease. The more pristine ares such as Silverymoon, Waterdeep, Suzail, Athkatla, etc.. might have been done with wizards helps but not entirely by magic alone. Besides, I'm sure a wizard has more important (at least to him) things to do than hold walls in place. Though who knows, that might be a job a wizards going to do for the right price?
#9 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 02, 2009 9:16:23	A nice reason why a simple house and a walled town around it wont be common is that most human military fortifications start out as a (wooden) watchtower with a crude wooden pallisade. The height advantage of a tower can provide the guards with ample time to spot trouble and can be erected in hours, not days. Such a structure is usually upgraded to a small fortress over time by rebuilding the walls and tower from stone. Magic is too versitile to counter effectively in frontier settings where only wooden pallisades and towers are used, but such structures do provide protection from (dire)wolf packs, goblin brigands, wandering bears and other common frontier threats. When you cross the frontierlands towards the more settled and urbanised areas you can see the increase in wealth effectively upgrades the fortresses with more effective barriers such as more stone, (magic) guards and wards. I think you can eventually see the effect that castles don't necesarrily have the most defensible shape any more when the areas you enter have very high wealth levels. A truly rich noble from Waterdeep can build his manor and have it magically warded so effectively that it could outlast a minor siege. So essentially castles have become a nations or regions localised barrier against outward threats; the first barrier being the outpost towers, with the castles froming the first serious defensive line. The closer one gets to the seat of power the more elaborate the castle forms can become, and the more magic is needed to effectively make siege on them. Eventually a fantasy nations capital city is likely to have defensive lines that wont resemble a castle visually. Even so its still likely the king or sovereign still is seated in a castle of immense proportions simply because the castle itself is a historical remnant of that first frontier watchtower, raised by the first of Kings...
#10 carbon_dragon Aug 02, 2009 13:11:18	But since it's not very defensible against magic assisted war, unless the rituals allow it to be repaired quicker than it can be destroyed, perhaps it's more like a fort in use than a castle -- that is a localized fortification designed as a tripwire and that might be feasible if castles are a lot easier to put up in Faerun than the real world. It really HAS to be easier or it's hard to understand their existance.
#11 suin_bahhar_02 Aug 02, 2009 13:33:51	Its hard to use magic to build castles when the amount of sorcerers and wizards needed are not readily available to build a castle quickly. I think in most cases a military outpost will start out without any arcane help and gradually grow out from watchtowers into castles. So castles are still a common sight in highmagic settings for two reasons: 1) they are adequate enough defenses to build in strategic areas where they still hold out those who are unwanted and 2) before the times the wizards where in power or near that particular site the castles base was propabably established by martial classes (that are more likely to wander and conquer frontier lands). Castles build by magic that are assigned to "strategic nomansland" can have all the fantastically build defenses you want limited by the funds available [look for the 3.0 Stronghold Builders Handbook for the exact costs in time and gp of magic build castles]. Thats why wizard towers are usually avoided even by armies; the wizards usually have enough ample funds and are paranoid enough to hone their towers magical defenses to an artform. Look at Halaster. ;) There are some spells that can surely speed up and make building castles easier and more cost effective. Telekinises, conjuring stone walls, featherfall and reverse gravity all come to mind. I think with a full crew, perhaps 10 wizards and enough engineers and builders to finish the rough edges, a castle can be build in a matter of weeks.
#12 aldareth Aug 03, 2009 5:31:01	But since it's not very defensible against magic assisted war, unless the rituals allow it to be repaired quicker than it can be destroyed, perhaps it's more like a fort in use than a castle -- that is a localized fortification designed as a tripwire and that might be feasible if castles are a lot easier to put up in Faerun than the real world. It really HAS to be easier or it's hard to understand their existance. that is why in the civilized areas of faerun you dont see much castles ( and if then they are really old) - in these area magic prevails and is a common threat. there you can defend a manor as easy as a Castle. in the not so civilized areas a castle does better work its more viable. want a real world example? take the Forts ( effectively a Castle ) of the US Cavallry in the wild west , why did the build them if there where cannons ? because the indians didnt had cannons - the same thing you can apply for Faerun - why did the build castles near the stonelands ? because orcs & goblins dont have strong enough magic to be a danger to that castles - and if they against the exeption do have...then its time for a airstrike ( call the war wizards of cormyr )
#13 gothmog_of_angband Aug 05, 2009 12:33:01	Yes. Adapted to the environment. More likely bunker-shaped.
#14 faraer Aug 09, 2009 21:42:10	The magic necessary to do it isn't really defined in D&D 4e but I'll concede that there are probably rituals which can help make any building secure -- spells that defend against intrusion, invisible people, ghosts, tunneling, explosions, teleporting, weather modification, etc. Not defined in 4E, but this isn't hypothetical -- dozens of such spells have been published. But how much actual contribution do those physical barriers make in a world as magic rich as this one? You may be overestimating how magic-rich it is (it's a complex and subtle question). As others have mentioned, there are a lot more people able to assault strongholds by military force than by Art. And there are chambers, safeholds and other places that are magically but not physically fortified, as well.