Is Ao "technically" the new god of magic? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is Ao "technically" the new god of magic?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Therise
Dec 28, 2008 16:51:38 Following Mystra's death, and the portfolio of magic no longer in any deity's hands (so to speak), why wouldn't everyone who once worshipped Mystra turn to Ao the Overgod as the "source"?

Let's speculate!

I imagine some former worshippers turned to evil sources of power, and some held out hope that Mystra would eventually re-form. But for the masses who believed in and depended on magic every day (and to some degree still do, at least with respect to belief), would they have turned to Ao as the ultimate source of mysteries? After all, he's definitely a mystery.
#2
humbleapostle
Dec 28, 2008 16:57:58 I would imagine a majority of Faerun as forgotten Ao, as he wants. He has been erasing mentions of himself since the Time of Troubles, and its been a good 100 years. I think its safe to say there aren't many remember him well.
#3
Stigger
Dec 28, 2008 20:20:47 They'd have to know about him to worship/turn to him (or would "it" be more appropriate?) in the first place, so I'd say no. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that most folks would probably view their patron as the source of magic, presuming they even had one, or would view it as a very secular sort of thing, at least as far as the 4e Realms went.
#4
Mr_Miscellany
Dec 29, 2008 1:05:25 Ao's just holding the deed, waiting to see who he wants to pass it out to.
#5
gray_richardson
Dec 29, 2008 1:25:47 Ao is not a god. No one worships him. Few even know about him. He doesn't have portfolios. He doesn't answer prayers, does not grant spells, does not speak to mortals. Ao is not a god, in the same way that the Chairman of the Board is not a janitor. Ao just doesn't do that kind of work.

If one were going to worship a god of "magic" the three obvious ones are Corellon, Selûne and Shar. Selûne has gathered a lot of Mystra's residual energy into herself--the essence of magic was ripped from Selûne to form Mystryl in the first place, so it is only natural that Selûne would want to consolidate that energy back into herself. No doubt that Shar has reclaimed some of that essence as well. And Corellon was always revered by elves as their god of magic.

Of course, Baravar Cloakshadow has the sphere of Illusions, so he is a good candidate if you favor spells from what was formerly the school of Illusion.

But officially no deity has the sphere, or portfolio, of Magic (per se) at the moment, and no deity is likely to attain that sphere in the near future.
#6
lord_karsus
Dec 29, 2008 10:42:32
No one worships him.

-This is incorrect, as there are small "cults" that do worship him. That he does not respond does not negate their worship.

-That said, as I've said numerous times, I doubt that there will ever be a deity of magic again. Mystra might be teased as returning, but ultimately, she will not. Mystra was made (somewhat rightly, somewhat wrongly) the 'poster child' of everything that was "wrong" with the Forgotten Realms, and removed. By re instituting her, or anyone/thing like her reintroduces the "problem". Of course, Shar exists for this purpose now, but...
#7
gray_richardson
Dec 29, 2008 22:36:12 I stand by my statement. While it is true that there were several Ao cults that sprang up in the wake of the Time of Troubles, by 1373 DR they are pretty much gone, and 100 years later no one remembers much less worships Ao at all.

In Faiths & Pantheons p. 4 it says "Ao has almost no direct interaction with Toril and would be largely forgotten by mortals if not for his role in the Time of Troubles. Already, cults founded in Ao's name only a decade ago die out and Ao's name disappears from written records, suggesting that the Overgod has no wish to be known by the mortals of Toril."
#8
Stigger
Dec 30, 2008 0:36:53 Careful Gray, you're getting into the land of semantics here, which is difficult to extract yourself from... must remember to use extremely precise language around L "Mr. Semantics" K. ;)
#9
drizztsmanchild
Dec 30, 2008 1:05:42 Well since we are getting all Technical here. Technically Ao is the overgod of the pantheon of god and since he created the cosmos(universe?) In which Toril resides he is technically the god of everything is he not? He can(should he desire to) control each and every domain that every god of toril and other worlds within his cosmos. Ao(Ed Greenwood) sphere of control encompasses everything should he desire to.

So yes "technically" Ao is the god of magic, evil,night, beginnings etc....if and when he choses to be
#10
Stigger
Dec 30, 2008 5:39:29 Interesting hypothesis, though not really grounded in solid lore per se... easily inferred from what we know though.
#11
lord_karsus
Dec 30, 2008 9:47:02
I stand by my statement. While it is true that there were several Ao cults that sprang up in the wake of the Time of Troubles, by 1373 DR they are pretty much gone, and 100 years later no one remembers much less worships Ao at all.

-To be "pretty much gone" means that something is not totally exterminated, which means that such things continue to exist. The FRCG goes as far to say, "No mortal worships Ao". It later goes on to contradict itself, saying, "No legitimate priests of Ao exist". Thus, a distinction is made between "legitimate" priests of Ao (which, there are none, and would be none), and illegitimate priests of Ao. If no members of the latter group actually existed, such distinctions would not have needed to have been made.

-The FRCG also states that knowledge of Ao continues to exist, and that Ao is not remembered, as you assert. Such knowledge is based on "fragmented legends and unreliable lore", but such demonstrates that knowledge of Ao continues to exist.
#12
markustay63
Dec 30, 2008 12:56:45 I'm going to side with Gray on this one... the stuff I've read (don't ask me for sources... I wouldn't know where to start) indicates that his cult was already dying out toward the end of 2e, and we have nary a mention of it in 3e (AFAIK). He was purposely working toward having people 'forget' the events at the end of the ToT, and it appears that he was successful.

If I were to slap some game mechainics on it, I would say everyone had to make a yearly saving throw - You would need to roll under your level on a D20 to remember everything clearly. Also, you would get a -1 modifier for every five years after, so unless you were leveling right-quick, eventually even a 30th level character would be 'hazy' as to what really happened.

But we don't need mechanics - it is stated (probably in his own entry in the 2e stuff) that he was making folks forget, and he IS an Overgod, so I consider it forgotten by the beginning of 3e... and MOST DEFINATELY be the time of 4e.

Now, on topic - I'd prefer Thoth(sp?) for a new god of magic, but because he's derivitive - and thats out in 4e - we'll never see that, so I would just go with Corellon.

Not that Corellon would have anything to do with the Weave or 'being Magic' as Mystra was - he is more like the Patron of Spellcaters (in 4e).
#13
lord_karsus
Dec 30, 2008 13:20:10
He was purposely working toward having people 'forget' the events at the end of the ToT, and it appears that he was successful.

-Cavatina, in the Lady Penitent series, specifically in Ascendancy of the Last, makes mention of Ao. The events of said book take place in 1,378 DR, I believe. Thus, Ao is not completely forgotten by all, as of 1,378 DR.

Now, on topic - I'd prefer Thoth(sp?) for a new god of magic, but because he's derivitive - and thats out in 4e - we'll never see that, so I would just go with Corellon.

-Thoth is a much better alternative to Corellon Larethian, but I don't believe that Thoth is around anymore. He and his buddies packed up and left.
#14
quale1
Dec 30, 2008 17:42:18 I'm for Shekinester (many different approaches to magic)

(and mysteriously linked with Vecna's Serpent)
#15
rauric
Dec 30, 2008 18:06:02 I feel in a world where gods answer prayers if people did worship a god or being and that being did not answer prayers or grant spells I figure the "faith" or cult may die off. In the real world a faith like that can last, but in a world where spells and prayers are answered I think people would have just moved on.

I like Corellon at the new god of magic.
#16
rinonalyrna_fathomlin
Dec 30, 2008 22:25:12
Following Mystra's death, and the portfolio of magic no longer in any deity's hands (so to speak), why wouldn't everyone who once worshipped Mystra turn to Ao the Overgod as the "source"?

In my opinion, Ao would be a "no go" for reasons already mentioned--most people don't know who he is, and the being himself (itself?) doesn't answer prayers and generally doesn't seem to want to involve himself with mortals in any meaningful way.
#17
askanipsion
Jan 01, 2009 15:13:07 According to Rich Baker, a large majority of good/neutral mages would now worship Selune out of any of the other gods especially female spellcasters. More scholarly mages might go with Oghma.

I guess the designers felt none of the gods needed the "magic" portfolio....in Faerun it is like painting a red target on yourself anyway :D

All the Gods of Magic end up dead.
#18
suin_bahhar_02
Jan 01, 2009 17:01:09 Selune as the new patron of the Art. This is what I would have liked to see fleshed out. Showing Selunite worship's adaptation to the influx of arcane spellcasters seeking spiritual guidance would give me that "magic of hope" feel I liked from Mystra.
#19
askanipsion
Jan 01, 2009 17:18:25
Selune as the new patron of the Art. This is what I would have liked to see fleshed out. Showing Selunite worship's adaptation to the influx of arcane spellcasters seeking spiritual guidance would give me that "magic of hope" feel I liked from Mystra.

I would love to see Selune's 4E faith get a nice DDI article. With her raise to Greater Goddess and her increase in power/worshippers plus the increase of Shar's faith, Selune would be a great candidate for an update.

With Mystra gone, I would love to see Selune get more exposure especially with magic dealings.
#20
lord_karsus
Jan 03, 2009 23:19:47
I guess the designers felt none of the gods needed the "magic" portfolio....in Faerun it is like painting a red target on yourself anyway :D

-In and of itself, I don't think it's needed. Mages can worship someone else than someone who represents "their job".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Therise Dec 28, 2008 16:51:38	Following Mystra's death, and the portfolio of magic no longer in any deity's hands (so to speak), why wouldn't everyone who once worshipped Mystra turn to Ao the Overgod as the "source"? Let's speculate! I imagine some former worshippers turned to evil sources of power, and some held out hope that Mystra would eventually re-form. But for the masses who believed in and depended on magic every day (and to some degree still do, at least with respect to belief), would they have turned to Ao as the ultimate source of mysteries? After all, he's definitely a mystery.
#2 humbleapostle Dec 28, 2008 16:57:58	I would imagine a majority of Faerun as forgotten Ao, as he wants. He has been erasing mentions of himself since the Time of Troubles, and its been a good 100 years. I think its safe to say there aren't many remember him well.
#3 Stigger Dec 28, 2008 20:20:47	They'd have to know about him to worship/turn to him (or would "it" be more appropriate?) in the first place, so I'd say no. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that most folks would probably view their patron as the source of magic, presuming they even had one, or would view it as a very secular sort of thing, at least as far as the 4e Realms went.
#4 Mr_Miscellany Dec 29, 2008 1:05:25	Ao's just holding the deed, waiting to see who he wants to pass it out to.
#5 gray_richardson Dec 29, 2008 1:25:47	Ao is not a god. No one worships him. Few even know about him. He doesn't have portfolios. He doesn't answer prayers, does not grant spells, does not speak to mortals. Ao is not a god, in the same way that the Chairman of the Board is not a janitor. Ao just doesn't do that kind of work. If one were going to worship a god of "magic" the three obvious ones are Corellon, Selûne and Shar. Selûne has gathered a lot of Mystra's residual energy into herself--the essence of magic was ripped from Selûne to form Mystryl in the first place, so it is only natural that Selûne would want to consolidate that energy back into herself. No doubt that Shar has reclaimed some of that essence as well. And Corellon was always revered by elves as their god of magic. Of course, Baravar Cloakshadow has the sphere of Illusions, so he is a good candidate if you favor spells from what was formerly the school of Illusion. But officially no deity has the sphere, or portfolio, of Magic (per se) at the moment, and no deity is likely to attain that sphere in the near future.
#6 lord_karsus Dec 29, 2008 10:42:32	No one worships him. -This is incorrect, as there are small "cults" that do worship him. That he does not respond does not negate their worship. -That said, as I've said numerous times, I doubt that there will ever be a deity of magic again. Mystra might be teased as returning, but ultimately, she will not. Mystra was made (somewhat rightly, somewhat wrongly) the 'poster child' of everything that was "wrong" with the Forgotten Realms, and removed. By re instituting her, or anyone/thing like her reintroduces the "problem". Of course, Shar exists for this purpose now, but...
#7 gray_richardson Dec 29, 2008 22:36:12	I stand by my statement. While it is true that there were several Ao cults that sprang up in the wake of the Time of Troubles, by 1373 DR they are pretty much gone, and 100 years later no one remembers much less worships Ao at all. In Faiths & Pantheons p. 4 it says "Ao has almost no direct interaction with Toril and would be largely forgotten by mortals if not for his role in the Time of Troubles. Already, cults founded in Ao's name only a decade ago die out and Ao's name disappears from written records, suggesting that the Overgod has no wish to be known by the mortals of Toril."
#8 Stigger Dec 30, 2008 0:36:53	Careful Gray, you're getting into the land of semantics here, which is difficult to extract yourself from... must remember to use extremely precise language around L "Mr. Semantics" K. ;)
#9 drizztsmanchild Dec 30, 2008 1:05:42	Well since we are getting all Technical here. Technically Ao is the overgod of the pantheon of god and since he created the cosmos(universe?) In which Toril resides he is technically the god of everything is he not? He can(should he desire to) control each and every domain that every god of toril and other worlds within his cosmos. Ao(Ed Greenwood) sphere of control encompasses everything should he desire to. So yes "technically" Ao is the god of magic, evil,night, beginnings etc....if and when he choses to be
#10 Stigger Dec 30, 2008 5:39:29	Interesting hypothesis, though not really grounded in solid lore per se... easily inferred from what we know though.
#11 lord_karsus Dec 30, 2008 9:47:02	I stand by my statement. While it is true that there were several Ao cults that sprang up in the wake of the Time of Troubles, by 1373 DR they are pretty much gone, and 100 years later no one remembers much less worships Ao at all. -To be "pretty much gone" means that something is not totally exterminated, which means that such things continue to exist. The FRCG goes as far to say, "No mortal worships Ao". It later goes on to contradict itself, saying, "No legitimate priests of Ao exist". Thus, a distinction is made between "legitimate" priests of Ao (which, there are none, and would be none), and illegitimate priests of Ao. If no members of the latter group actually existed, such distinctions would not have needed to have been made. -The FRCG also states that knowledge of Ao continues to exist, and that Ao is not remembered, as you assert. Such knowledge is based on "fragmented legends and unreliable lore", but such demonstrates that knowledge of Ao continues to exist.
#12 markustay63 Dec 30, 2008 12:56:45	I'm going to side with Gray on this one... the stuff I've read (don't ask me for sources... I wouldn't know where to start) indicates that his cult was already dying out toward the end of 2e, and we have nary a mention of it in 3e (AFAIK). He was purposely working toward having people 'forget' the events at the end of the ToT, and it appears that he was successful. If I were to slap some game mechainics on it, I would say everyone had to make a yearly saving throw - You would need to roll under your level on a D20 to remember everything clearly. Also, you would get a -1 modifier for every five years after, so unless you were leveling right-quick, eventually even a 30th level character would be 'hazy' as to what really happened. But we don't need mechanics - it is stated (probably in his own entry in the 2e stuff) that he was making folks forget, and he IS an Overgod, so I consider it forgotten by the beginning of 3e... and MOST DEFINATELY be the time of 4e. Now, on topic - I'd prefer Thoth(sp?) for a new god of magic, but because he's derivitive - and thats out in 4e - we'll never see that, so I would just go with Corellon. Not that Corellon would have anything to do with the Weave or 'being Magic' as Mystra was - he is more like the Patron of Spellcaters (in 4e).
#13 lord_karsus Dec 30, 2008 13:20:10	He was purposely working toward having people 'forget' the events at the end of the ToT, and it appears that he was successful. -Cavatina, in the Lady Penitent series, specifically in Ascendancy of the Last, makes mention of Ao. The events of said book take place in 1,378 DR, I believe. Thus, Ao is not completely forgotten by all, as of 1,378 DR. Now, on topic - I'd prefer Thoth(sp?) for a new god of magic, but because he's derivitive - and thats out in 4e - we'll never see that, so I would just go with Corellon. -Thoth is a much better alternative to Corellon Larethian, but I don't believe that Thoth is around anymore. He and his buddies packed up and left.
#14 quale1 Dec 30, 2008 17:42:18	I'm for Shekinester (many different approaches to magic) (and mysteriously linked with Vecna's Serpent)
#15 rauric Dec 30, 2008 18:06:02	I feel in a world where gods answer prayers if people did worship a god or being and that being did not answer prayers or grant spells I figure the "faith" or cult may die off. In the real world a faith like that can last, but in a world where spells and prayers are answered I think people would have just moved on. I like Corellon at the new god of magic.
#16 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 30, 2008 22:25:12	Following Mystra's death, and the portfolio of magic no longer in any deity's hands (so to speak), why wouldn't everyone who once worshipped Mystra turn to Ao the Overgod as the "source"? In my opinion, Ao would be a "no go" for reasons already mentioned--most people don't know who he is, and the being himself (itself?) doesn't answer prayers and generally doesn't seem to want to involve himself with mortals in any meaningful way.
#17 askanipsion Jan 01, 2009 15:13:07	According to Rich Baker, a large majority of good/neutral mages would now worship Selune out of any of the other gods especially female spellcasters. More scholarly mages might go with Oghma. I guess the designers felt none of the gods needed the "magic" portfolio....in Faerun it is like painting a red target on yourself anyway :D All the Gods of Magic end up dead.
#18 suin_bahhar_02 Jan 01, 2009 17:01:09	Selune as the new patron of the Art. This is what I would have liked to see fleshed out. Showing Selunite worship's adaptation to the influx of arcane spellcasters seeking spiritual guidance would give me that "magic of hope" feel I liked from Mystra.
#19 askanipsion Jan 01, 2009 17:18:25	Selune as the new patron of the Art. This is what I would have liked to see fleshed out. Showing Selunite worship's adaptation to the influx of arcane spellcasters seeking spiritual guidance would give me that "magic of hope" feel I liked from Mystra. I would love to see Selune's 4E faith get a nice DDI article. With her raise to Greater Goddess and her increase in power/worshippers plus the increase of Shar's faith, Selune would be a great candidate for an update. With Mystra gone, I would love to see Selune get more exposure especially with magic dealings.
#20 lord_karsus Jan 03, 2009 23:19:47	I guess the designers felt none of the gods needed the "magic" portfolio....in Faerun it is like painting a red target on yourself anyway :D -In and of itself, I don't think it's needed. Mages can worship someone else than someone who represents "their job".