I can't recall any 'new' classes that have been used in books, but mostly, I was trying to say that it isn't very forced (rules wise) in the new books I have read.
Thanks for the information, I'm kind of sorry to hear that they didn't take advantage of some of the cool things that the various classes can do now though. I was rather looking forward to seeing how they descibed things, atleast when the heroes pull out their dailies to get out of particularly dangerous situations. Oh well, best wishes everyone.
I believe it depends on how you say 'take advantage of the changes'.
My memory is a little rusty, but I think that they did it some in the Blackstaff Tower novel. At least I think that is the name.
There were five 'adventurers' if I remember correctly. Just like the standard party.
The Blackstaff was definitely a controller. One of the young lords was definitely a leader, it might be possible to construe him as a warlord. The guy hired by the guildmaster's daughter was definitely a defender, probably fighter. I think the guldmaster's daughter may have been a rogue (m/c wizard). And the other lord may have been a defender or striker, I am not sure. It has been a while and I was not familiar with the 4th edition rules when I read it.
Oh, well the only examples we have of new classes in FR novels is the Swordmage, which does show the class well.
-Plague of Spells features Spellscarred, which should be as subclass, like Spellfire Wielder should have.
I believe it depends on how you say 'take advantage of the changes'.
My memory is a little rusty, but I think that they did it some in the Blackstaff Tower novel. At least I think that is the name.
There were five 'adventurers' if I remember correctly. Just like the standard party.
The Blackstaff was definitely a controller. One of the young lords was definitely a leader, it might be possible to construe him as a warlord. The guy hired by the guildmaster's daughter was definitely a defender, probably fighter. I think the guldmaster's daughter may have been a rogue (m/c wizard). And the other lord may have been a defender or striker, I am not sure. It has been a while and I was not familiar with the 4th edition rules when I read it.
Actually, I recall Steven saying that he didn't have any exposure to 4th Edition rules and classes until after the book was complete.
In the new books do characters stop for a 10 minute ritual every time they want to fly or do any of the other magic that was so common in battle? That would really destroy the pace.
I read the FR novels for the magic and the dieties. Both are sorely lacking in 4e. If that's also true for the novels, then I'll go some where else for my reading.
Actually, I recall Steven saying that he didn't have any exposure to 4th Edition rules and classes until after the book was complete.
Thankyou for the information. I learned something new.
I definitely should have known better than to have said definitely.
Well, there I go again.
I have been very afraid of this since I first read the 4e core books. After reading the core books, I read the last 3 Evris Cale books. The whole time I was reading those books, I was mentally ticking off things that could not happen anymore.
In the new books do characters stop for a 10 minute ritual every time they want to fly or do any of the other magic that was so common in battle? That would really destroy the pace.
I read the FR novels for the magic and the dieties. Both are sorely lacking in 4e. If that's also true for the novels, then I'll go some where else for my reading.
I think I can relate to what you are talking about.
Personally, it bothers me when books try to copy a game system. I think it always messes up the flow. But,when the books are canon, it seems to me they might have to or someone would say 'the books are canon, if he can do it the rules must let it happen.' So, I guess it could be a problem to not follow the rules. But, then again, I like the thought of books being canon for purposes of setting development. At least from a player's side anyway. Are the books still considered canon? Or are they small enough in scale so as to not really impact the setting? I am referring to the 4th edition books because I don't think Shadowrealm (correct title?) and the last Thay book (whatever its title is) are exactly small in scale.
When a novel tries to adhere too closely to the rules, its starts to feel 'fake'.
That being said, I've only read one 4th edition novel, and I couldn't really "get into it". It wasn't the writing or anything... it was just taking place in some strange setting I know nothing about nor care to.
I believe it depends on how you say 'take advantage of the changes'.
My memory is a little rusty, but I think that they did it some in the Blackstaff Tower novel. At least I think that is the name.
There were five 'adventurers' if I remember correctly. Just like the standard party.
The Blackstaff was definitely a controller. One of the young lords was definitely a leader, it might be possible to construe him as a warlord. The guy hired by the guildmaster's daughter was definitely a defender, probably fighter. I think the guldmaster's daughter may have been a rogue (m/c wizard). And the other lord may have been a defender or striker, I am not sure. It has been a while and I was not familiar with the 4th edition rules when I read it.
nuh uh, the guildmaster's duaghter said she was a sorcereress.
and the wardragon guy, he was not classes in it, pass the phrase the barbarian or some such.
nuh uh, the guildmaster's duaghter said she was a sorcereress.
and the wardragon guy, he was not classes in it, pass the phrase the barbarian or some such.
Maybe I should just keep my mouth shut.
I think perhaps I should make it a point to further review any books before commenting on them.
Novels SHOULDN'T adhere to any rules - they are written to showcase parts of the Realms and various NPCs.
When a novel tries to adhere to closely too the rules, its starts to feel 'fake'.
-No, novels should toe the line and adhere to whatever the current rules are, to give things some semblance of sense, when viewed through the lens of D&D. Authors shouldn't kowtow to them, though. There's a medium between rules and poetic license that all of the good Forgotten Realms books reach.
-No, novels should toe the line and adhere to whatever the current rules are, to give things some semblance of sense, when viewed through the lens of D&D. Authors shouldn't kowtow to them, though. There's a medium between rules and poetic license that all of the good Forgotten Realms books reach.
I do agree here with LK somewhat, but I belive that you should adhere to the reality of your created universe espically when your describing it in a novel. For example, if paladins can call divine thunder down from the heavens in your universe and in a novel, your paladin's flying around with a spell, it doesn't much make sense. Same applies here. But I think theres really only a problem when it involves Magic/Powers/etc.
Another example is in novels during 3e, when a sorcerer/wizard character casts Magic Missile and three bolts shoot out, we all know he's between 5th and 6th level at least in that class. But then that same character casts Mass Fly, the reader versed in D&D rules would pause and say "Wait a miniute, how can he cast that spell when clearly he's only 5th/6th spell-caster level?" I think that takes away from the book if there's no continunity between novel/rules.
I do agree here with LK somewhat, but I belive that you should adhere to the reality of your created universe espically when your describing it in a novel. For example, if paladins can call divine thunder down from the heavens in your universe and in a novel, your paladin's flying around with a spell, it doesn't much make sense. Same applies here. But I think theres really only a problem when it involves Magic/Powers/etc.
Another example is in novels during 3e, when a sorcerer/wizard character casts Magic Missile and three bolts shoot out, we all know he's between 5th and 6th level at least in that class. But then that same character casts Mass Fly, the reader versed in D&D rules would pause and say "Wait a miniute, how can he cast that spell when clearly he's only 5th/6th spell-caster level?" I think that takes away from the book if there's no continunity between novel/rules.
-Right. I was going to use an example about one novel ignoring rules, and giving Drow wings and lasers, but decided against it.
-Novels should toe the line, when it comes to rules, but at the same time, an author shouldn't be beholden to follow them, to a T. Apprentices shouldn't be stopping time via Time Stop, but, using Diffan's example, an author shouldn't have to count and ensure that the amount of Magic Missiles that the character shoots conforms to the characters level (unless they want to. I know in a short story I wrote that involved Magic Missiles, I did so.). As I've criticized the Last Mythal trilogy about, it feels too much like the campaign notes from someone's D&D campaign given some embellishment. On the other side of the spectrum, I don't want to see a novel that makes no sense, in relation to the rules (whatever edition!).
And by the way, novels are still canon, even if they are also small-scale.
Thankyou for the reply.
I believed they were. But realizing how poor my memory was on the subject, I thought it better to ask.
-No, novels should toe the line and adhere to whatever the current rules are, to give things some semblance of sense, when viewed through the lens of D&D. Authors shouldn't kowtow to them, though. There's a medium between rules and poetic license that all of the good Forgotten Realms books reach.
Have you ever seen Drizzt cast a Ranger spell?
NO... he used Drow magic, at a time (and edition) when such a thing was IMPOSSIBLE on the surface...
They've since change the rules to accomodate him, but my point is, RAS became THE most popular (as in sales figures) Realms-author, despite the fact that he breaks the rules at every turn.
A good yarn is a good yarn, plain and simple. Seeing a wizard studying his Spellbooks before going to bed, or when he first awakes (as Phaerun did) is Okay, but I don't want to hear about how he is memorizing spells, or that he is 'running out' of a certain spell because he has no slots left (Pharaun uses the same spell over and over and OVER at one point... which is just fine in a novel.)
I don't mind this AT ALL in novels - those characters are MEANT TO BE Uber-munchkins... and NO, your PC is NOT supposed to be able to do that stuff (so here's a Kleenex - go dry your eyes cry-babies who ruined OUR Realms!!!)
I'm an old-school DM, which means my NPCs can do LOTS of stuff no PC ever could, so why should care if authors do it? I don't need an explanation - I'm telling a story! Only the PCs need rules....
Now, if someone asks me how something is possible, I will make-up a long-winded explanation on the spot, which will cover special unknown rituals using materials from other planes (it really is THAT simple).
How was Drizzt able to do wha he did? Simple... he had a CUSTOM PrC that allowed him to us his Drow abilites as if they were his granted Ranger Spells, and also use Guenhyver as his 'Animal Companion'. I do not need to write-up any such PrC, since it was a custom-job granted him by Mielikki (who was thrilled to get a Drow away from Eilistraee). No-one else can have that PrC - it is unique to Drizzt... and if a player had a character-concept that wasn't covered by any of the standard PrCs, I would write-up a custom-job for him as well.
No two people are exactly alike, so why should our PCs be stamped-out from a cookie-cutter?
Have you ever seen Drizzt cast a Ranger spell?
-He doesn't have a Wisdom/Charisma (or whatever the necessary ability score is) high enough. Or, he doesn't know/doesn't choose to use "Ranger Magic", perhaps because he himself understands the power that a deity granting a mortal spells gives them, in the priestess' of Lolth, and does not wish to become that. There's plenty of possible explanations since nothing explicitly states the specific reason.
So those things can be in novels without fuss and bustle.
-He doesn't have a Wisdom/Charisma (or whatever the necessary ability score is) high enough. Or, he doesn't know/doesn't choose to use "Ranger Magic", perhaps because he himself understands the power that a deity granting a mortal spells gives them, in the priestess' of Lolth, and does not wish to become that. There's plenty of possible explanations since nothing explicitly states the specific reason.
Actually, he's only a 5th level ranger (per FRCS) and only has access to a single spell: Detect Animals or Plants.
you know, outside his racial abilities, I never have seen Drizzt cast any spell
-That's kinda the point. ;)
I think the casting of the Detect Animals/Plants would only be applied when he's foraging for food in the North. Since that doesn't make very interesting reading...
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. He might very well use these spells "off-screen."
They've since change the rules to accomodate him, but my point is, RAS became THE most popular (as in sales figures) Realms-author, despite the fact that he breaks the rules at every turn.
I don't think it was just Drizzt novels that were rule changers but rather gave designers ideas that weren't formulated at the time. "Drow using Darkness more than once per day?! Excellent!" Also while authors artistic license should have some lee-way, I don't believe it should be completly beyond reality as far as the rules go.
A good yarn is a good yarn, plain and simple. Seeing a wizard studying his Spellbooks before going to bed, or when he first awakes (as Phaerun did) is Okay, but I don't want to hear about how he is memorizing spells, or that he is 'running out' of a certain spell because he has no slots left (Pharaun uses the same spell over and over and OVER at one point... which is just fine in a novel.)
I don't mind this AT ALL in novels - those characters are MEANT TO BE Uber-munchkins... and NO, your PC is NOT supposed to be able to do that stuff (so here's a Kleenex - go dry your eyes cry-babies who ruined OUR Realms!!!)
Lol, with that sort of thinking, the deisgners should've just put this into the FRCS....
Elminster, Chosen of Mystra: The Sage of Shadowdale for years confounded the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards of Thay, and a hundred rival mages while at the same time training and rearing a long succession of apprentices who all became superb spellcasters in their own right. He found the Harpers, raised several of the Seven Sisters, and held Mystra's power inside himself during the Time of Troubles.
Elminster Stats: Are you serious? Attempting to take on this mage is laughable and will own your whole party in round 1. If he's feeling generous, maybe he'll just teleport you all to a nice, scenic place like the 4th layer of the Abyss. Party Fail.
Drizzt Do'Urden: A ranger of Mielikki, Drizzt is an unusual specimen of the predominantly evil drow race. Much like his father Zaknafein, he was born with a strong sense of morals and fights on the side of good and justice. Despite his tremendous skill with weapons, Drizzt is primarily a peacemaker who is always willing to avoid a fight if he can, although he makes exceptions for irredeemably evil races such as orcs, giants, yetis, and goblins. Even then he looks for exceptions to the stereotypical prejudice of those races.
Drizzt Do'Urden Stats: Considering this drow takes on Matron Mothers, six-limbed demons, hoards of orcs, giants, and ogres, and deadly assassins it's safe to say your not long for this world if you attempt to take him on. Why not instead go fight a dragon or do something more productive than getting cut down before you roll initiative?
Szass Tam: Infamous for his wise, cold cruelty and his longevity, Szass Tam is the zulkir of Necromancy in Thay, it's most influential Red Wizard, and-observers say-the true ruler of Thay. Like other Red Wizards, Szass Tam prefers to remain unseen, working through lackeys and servitor creatrues (such as armies of undead led by vampires) while he plots and schemes.
Szass Tam Stats: Even asking if it's possible to bring down this king of undeath should result in a total party kill. Result= Epic Fail. While your making your new characters, why not strive for something more attainable like getting to level 10?
I'm an old-school DM, which means my NPCs can do LOTS of stuff no PC ever could, so why should care if authors do it? I don't need an explanation - I'm telling a story! Only the PCs need rules....
This reminds me of our DM that we do 4e with. Often i'll see him re-rolling creatures "recharge" abilities over and over until he succeeds. To me, not only is that cheating, but completly useless. If your going to cheat, then you might as well just say "Hey, the creature regained his blah-blah power." and be done with it.
Now, if someone asks me how something is possible, I will make-up a long-winded explanation on the spot, which will cover special unknown rituals using materials from other planes (it really is THAT simple).
How was Drizzt able to do wha he did? Simple... he had a CUSTOM PrC that allowed him to us his Drow abilites as if they were his granted Ranger Spells, and also use Guenhyver as his 'Animal Companion'. I do not need to write-up any such PrC, since it was a custom-job granted him by Mielikki (who was thrilled to get a Drow away from Eilistraee). No-one else can have that PrC - it is unique to Drizzt... and if a player had a character-concept that wasn't covered by any of the standard PrCs, I would write-up a custom-job for him as well.
No two people are exactly alike, so why should our PCs be stamped-out from a cookie-cutter?
Well for one, often home-brew Prestige Classes are broken and usually cause problems. In addition, there are quite enough base classes, PrCs, and templates to practically do anything you want within the rules of the game espically when we're taking about 3rd edition. So theres no reason why any PC should be a cookie-cutter version of another and still not conform to the rules.
Szass Tam Stats: Even asking if it's possible to bring down this king of undeath should result in a total party kill. Result= Epic Fail. While your making your new characters, why not strive for something more attainable like getting to level 10?
LOL!