In 4e, both Calimport and Baldur's Gate are larger. I'm not familiar with how Calimport's citizen's faired, but Baldur's Gate definately has Waterdeep beat in population now.
Which makes it is at least #2, and perhaps #3 population-wise in 4e.
--- Mark
Also is Waterdeep like the New York of FR?
-Yes, in terms of location, weather, and population.
In 4e, both Calimport and Baldur's Gate are larger. I'm not familiar with how Calimport's citizen's faired, but Baldur's Gate definately has Waterdeep beat in population now.
-I'm no so sure about Calimport's population anymore. Calimport's population took an extreme nosedive. It dropped from 100,000+ to around 60,000 or so. That's around a 40% decrease.
In 4th... we have no info concerning Waterdeep or BG population.
In 3rd ed. Skuld was the biggest city as far as I remember.
In 4th... we have no info concerning Waterdeep or BG population.
Skuld is nowhere close. It's something, like, 220,000 and Waterdeep is about 1.3 mil.
@Lirdolin
From what I read, Waterdeep still has about the same population. Baldur's Gate has flooded to a few hundred thousand beyond that. Though, nothing I can say as official.
And I do think its funny that the two biggest cities don't get their population listed in 4e.
Skuld is nowhere close. It's something, like, 220,000 and Waterdeep is about 1.3 mil.
No, he's right. The City of Waterdeep had only 132,661 inhabitans. The region called Waterdeep had your 1.3 mil. of people.
Edit:
And even when the suburbia counts, you should also consider that in Calimport live countless slaves, so according to Calimshan the population could as well be over 2 millions.
With Skuld GONE in 4e, the point is rather moot, and is no-longer on the 'top three' list.
-I'm no so sure about Calimport's population anymore. Calimport's population took an extreme nosedive. It dropped from 100,000+ to around 60,000 or so. That's around a 40% decrease.
It has been decreasing for centuries - even in 3e, most of the city was abandoned - it once had a population closer to that of modern-day (3e) Waterdeep, but the constant plagues coupled with attacks by everything from Drow and to evil cults has left the city (in ANY edition) a mere shadow of it's former self.
It has been decreasing for centuries - even in 3e, most of the city was abandoned - it once had a population closer to that of modern-day (3e) Waterdeep, but the constant plagues coupled with attacks by everything from Drow and to evil cults has left the city (in ANY edition) a mere shadow of it's former self.
-Right, now it's a shadow of it's former shadowy self.
...
-Where's that tally for the use of any words pertaining to 'Shadows'?
Waterdeep is still the most cosmopolitan city and center of trade and commerce, probably the wealthiest, although many of the rich noble families took a big hit due to the troubles from the Spellplague.
Keith
If big by population, then no. Calimport, Skuld, Suldolphor all bigger.
Waterdeep-metropolis population(around 132.000)
As for size, largest maps available are of waterdeep and calimport, and calimports looks bigger, but...
In 4E, baldur gate gets first prize.
During the Shoon rule, shoonach run the show(size and numbers), and calimport was actually destroyed several times, so the ''losing population over the centuries'' it's in YOUR realms.
The question was canon info, not YOUR realms info.
No, he's right. The City of Waterdeep had only 132,661 inhabitans. The region called Waterdeep had your 1.3 mil. of people.
Edit:
And even when the suburbia counts, you should also consider that in Calimport live countless slaves, so according to Calimshan the population could as well be over 2 millions.
No. They specifically refer to the Waterdeep entry as a city--which includes the 1.3 mil populous. No "region" or anything of a similar manner is ever mentioned.
As for Calimport--4e speaking--it was made a point that djinns are already looking for slavers from other areas because their slave stock has become slim. 60,000 can back this up--2 mil cannot.
The question was canon info, not YOUR realms info.
You need to study some older sources then.
Calimport HAS indeed been losing population for centuries, for various reasons, including parts of the city being destroyed (the city itself has NEVER been wholly destroyed, in all its millenia of existance).
The most frequent set-back in Calimshan's LONG history are the numerous plagues, which is a common occurrence amongst medieval cities.
Since this question was aimed at 3e and perhaps 4e (still not sure), Shoonach doesn't even enter into the picture. ;)
-Lurk mode on. :P I hope this post doesn't get deleted like a post did earlier today.
18DELTA ;)
-I know Waterdeep's population would get x5 larger in the summer months. I forget which book I read that in. ;)
-Lurk mode on. :P I hope this post doesn't get deleted like a post did earlier today.
18DELTA ;)
Remain true and stop lurking, muffinhead!!!
-I know Waterdeep's population would get x5 larger in the summer months. I forget which book I read that in. ;)
-Lurk mode on. :P I hope this post doesn't get deleted like a post did earlier today.
18DELTA ;)
I certainly remember that from several sources, like the 2E City of Splendors boxed set. Though certainly Calimport and other metropolises of similar scale also see their populations surge due to season migrations (harvest cycles, holidays, etc.)
No. They specifically refer to the Waterdeep entry as a city--which includes the 1.3 mil populous. No "region" or anything of a similar manner is ever mentioned.
I regret to inform you JudgeDookie that you are incorrect. The population of 1,347,840 is for the region of Waterdeep. The population entry on p.178 of the FRCS reads: City of Waterdeep, Metropolis, 132,661.
You need to study some older sources then.
Calimport HAS indeed been losing population for centuries, for various reasons, incluing parts of the city being destroyed (the city itself has NEVER been wholly destroyed, in all its millenia of existance).
The most frequent set-back in Calimshan's LONG history are the numerous plagues, which is a common occurrence amongst medieval cities.
Since this question was aimed at 3e and perhaps 4e (still not sure), Shoonach doesn't even enter into the picture. ;)
Ok, lets go for 3E cannon facts:
-City of Calimport (population:192795 citizens), the amount of slaves is not mentioned.
-City of Suldolphor (population 143687 citizens)
-City of Waterdeep (population 132661 citizens), the number of 1347840 refer to the region of Waterdeep, not the city itself.
-City of Skuld (population 204538 citizens), the amount of slaves not mentioned.
-City of Gheldaneth (population 172243), the amount of slaves not mentioned.
All these data are cannon in FRCS of 3E.
As for the calimport demographic issue, you mentioned city destruction and plagues as reasons for a demogrphic decline, ''like in all medieval cities''. And city reconstruction(outside workers), population growth(offspring), imported slaves(slave trade), and new seattlers(were talking about the most important port in the shinnig sea) dont count? By that reasoning, all medieval cities that suffered likewise disasters should have population losses forever?
These are the facts:
-Nowhere is the original population numbers of calimport mentioned.
-While in its several millenia of history, the city suffered heavy losses due to plagues, fires, tidal waves and even ruler's folly, said event werent constant, therefore the population had time betweenthem to recover.
-Massive importation of slaves(not all die, some even gain freedom and settle there)
-Calimport always was and is a wealthy place.
-Building are demolished to make way to new construction(origins of the Muzad).
-The calimshite cities are buit in the sabban system.
All these facts are mentioned in Empire of the Shining seas, Calimport, A Grand History of the Realms, FRCS(so...,i do read older sources, do you?
You assume that Calimport population numbers were bigger before disasters, you assume no population growth between disasters, and you assume that all traces of that much larger city vanish.
The size of a city (the OP's question) isn't the same as that city's population.
And the FRCS is wrong. :P
I always defer to text over maps and stat blocks, but thats just me. Skuld I could see as number one, but Suldophor?!
I had to look that back-water up....
-Look at here, New York City, and Los Angeles, for example. Los Angeles has a larger area, and less people. New York City has a smaller area, and more people. The density per mile in LA is 7,876.4, as opposed to here, where it is 26,403.8. LA is much less impressive when you look at their size like that.
-And, I hate LA and all, so I like bashing it.
I regret to inform you JudgeDookie that you are incorrect. The population of 1,347,840 is for the region of Waterdeep. The population entry on p.178 of the FRCS reads: City of Waterdeep, Metropolis, 132,661.
Damn you to Bejebuz!!! You're right!
I had to reread that thing 3x to get the fine print.
My apologies to Keveras. :surrender
Either way--and its not being stubborn--I still see Waterdeep at 1.3 mil. It says in the entry that it commands the countryside for all around. Just because I haven't named a cornfield, doesn't mean its not city property.
So there.
-And, I hate LA and all, so I like bashing it.
Yo, yo.
LK and I discovered long ago that everybody's copies of FR material is just a little bit different then everyone else's. I'm sure if Dan were still around, he can tell us all how that can occur with Chaos Throry. :D
You're not wrong, just as I am not...
LK and I discovered long ago that everybody's copies of FR material is just a little bit different then everyone else's. I'm sure if Dan were still around, he can tell us all how that can occur with Chaos Throry. :D
Then the one I read 4x ago is correct and I stand by it!!
Plus my corn field comment. That's completely true.
Yo, yo.
-I'll take that as you being in agreement?
LK and I discovered long ago that everybody's copies of FR material is just a little bit different then everyone else's.
-Hey, hey, that doesn't mean that you weren't wrong! ;) :P
My apologies to Keveras. :surrender
So I'm on the side of the winners, this time. Well, I accept your apology :P
-And, I hate LA and all, so I like bashing it.
That's just subjective, so it's not a good reason though. But I just have to laugh. :D
-I'll take that as you being in agreement
Los Angeles is Awesome, you're just jealous.
And I'd say that Waterdeep is more like LA. West coast location, huge ocean based trading, lots of magic.
Size = Physical dimensions.
The size of a city (the OP's question) isn't the same as that city's population.
And the FRCS is wrong. :P
Since from the mentioned cities only the maps of waterdeep and calimport are available, then ther's no answer to OP's question. Of couse since engeniering is similar to medieval level in all of these cities, one could assume population size would reflect in city size.
So either the FRCS is wrong, and all the population stats in the rest of the 3e guidebooks, or your wrong?
Waterdeep is the location version of Elsminster, Drizzt and Cale, in the sense that it's a cities that can get away with everything, and will always be protected by author influence.
Los Angeles is Awesome, you're just jealous.
-Los Angeles sucks. That's all there is to it. They're a bunch of grubby thieves there, is what they are. The Dodgers are, and will always be, a New York team.
And I'd say that Waterdeep is more like LA. West coast location, huge ocean based trading, lots of magic.
-All silliness asides, Waterdeep is nothing like Los Angeles. As I said, it is the New York of the Forgotten Realms.
Waterdeep is the location version of Elsminster, Drizzt and Cale, in the sense that it's a cities that can get away with everything, and will always be protected by author influence.
-I would have said Waterdeep was a location version of Mystra, in that it's supposedly the grandest of all cities, and the best of all cities, and such and such and such, but that's not a good analogy anymore. ;)
Obviously, with those numbers, they could conquer much of western Faerûn. But no... they were beaten by a force of Tuigan numbering 6000...
And the Tuigan themselves, numbering over 100,000, were beaten by a force comprised of only 31,000.
Obviuosly, designers and authors make-up whatever numbers they want when writing something, with no RW-relation to the areas around them or the geo-political climate of the Realms. Take the 4e FRCG - the town of Loudwater has 2000 citizens, yet the map that comes with the adventure could not possibly support those numbers.
Canon sources may be 'canon', but they can also be wrong, and are open to interpretation. That being said, you were obviously right, and I'm just trying to cover my ass any way I can (I'm still shaking my head over Suldophor).
And if we want to continue my argument of 'interpretation', then are the subteranean parts of cities included? Calimport has a huge Sewer and tunnel system below it called '"Dark Calimport" (IIRC), but if we include Undermountain and Skullport as part of Waterdeep, then the numbers shoot up exponentially!
And in a fantasy city, what constitutes population? In Halruaa or Thay, there are large populations of Spellcasters who have Familiars who are intelligent. What about other creatures and even 'monsters' that have a higher-then-animal intelligence? If a city had about 10,000 'Cranium Rats' living beneath it, would that be population?
You also have several examples of 'temporary cities' in canon. Bildoobaris jumps to mind, but it only has a pop. of 33K at the best of times. However, in the east, there are at least two other tent cities. Quaraband, Yamun Kahan's headquarters, held his entire army of 250,00 just before he invaded Semphar. Unlike other armies, Tuigan were fairly self-sufficient, so support personnel would have been a minimum, but still, that number is greater then Suldophor's.
There are no exact numbers for the cities of the east, unfortunately, but there is one - Belanzia - that probably would have rivaled Shoonach in its heyday. That city also fell in 1153 DR, though. Considering the vast numbers of people living in the East, I would think there should be a few cities there that should easily rival Faerûn's 'top five'.
And in a fantasy city, what constitutes population?
-Proper, G-d fearing, tax paying citizens!
Then Westgate's population should be about 0. :D
-If they stole from the government, would it be possible for the population to dip into the negatives? Or if there were Undead, perhaps?
I like that. :D
If a town was comprised entirely of mindless undead, then it would have no population, since my own definition included any Intelligent creatures.
There is a town in Ravenloft like that, where everyone (zombies) still go about their daily routines (or at least, try to), as if they are locked into some sort of morbid play.
If there were 500 Zombies 'living' there, would the population be -500?
Would a large enough population of undead in any settlement offset the numbers?
What about Szass Tam's new Thay? If there are just as many 'dead things' wandering about as living ones, then Thay has no population.
We could extend the definition to say that creatures must be both intelligent and alive to count, but then Warlock's Crypt would still have no population. Maybe just saying Intelligent is good enough, and don't count constructs (of which zombies are a minor form of) at all.
Still, would the Underworld of Westgate count as population, if they don't live in the city-proper or contribute in any sort of useful way?
Hmmm... now you found a hole in my earlier argument.
-It's a speciality of mine.
-Anyway, I don't think I'd consider Undead part of a settlement's population. I would use the phrase, "The necropolis had a population of X Undead", however. Undead don't fit into that...loose definition that defines population.
-I'll take that as you being in agreement?
This is Chicago talking. What do you think? Besides our difference in pizza, we’re far more similar than we are to L.A. or any west coast “city.”
-Hey, hey, that doesn't mean that you weren't wrong! ;) :P
Agreed. :D
So I'm on the side of the winners, this time. Well, I accept your apology :P
You won the battle.
Over stupid technicalities!!!
But we're still getting technical, it seems.
Los Angeles is Awesome, you're just jealous.
And I'd say that Waterdeep is more like LA. West coast location, huge ocean based trading, lots of magic.
I didn’t know LSD was a big trade in Waterdeep…?
Hmmm... now you found a hole in my earlier argument.
No, you big muffinhead--you just gave him a hole!!
How the hell are we supposed to win the war if you keep exposing chinks in the armour!!!
I didn’t know LSD was a big trade in Waterdeep…?
uh, hello, Skullport. They traffic all sorts of drugs.
and marijuana is the drug of choice, anyway.
uh, hello, Skullport. They traffic all sorts of drugs.
and marijuana is the drug of choice, anyway.
Skullport is gone!!
Just like you!!
Go...
Go now...
Be gone and...uh...stufff....
This is Chicago talking. What do you think? Besides our difference in pizza, we’re far more similar than we are to L.A. or any west coast “city.”
-Point taken. Maybe we'll teach you guys how to make a proper pizza, yet.
-As a point of trivia thing, anybody know the smallest city/hamlet/thorpe/whatever with an official listed population?
-Point taken. Maybe we'll teach you guys how to make a proper pizza, yet.
Eh. We know its not proper pizza, but we're plenty fat, plenty Italian and plenty stubborn. You have to deal with it because you made a deal about it in the first place. Therefore, your NY folly made us Chi-town money.
Sux, I know. ;)
As a point of trivia thing, anybody know the smallest city/hamlet/thorpe/whatever with an official listed population?
Aukney. Had to be put on the map by R.A., simply out of his relevance.
Haven't checked yet, but....
Eh. We know its not proper pizza, but we're plenty fat, plenty Italian and plenty stubborn. You have to deal with it because you made a deal about it in the first place.
-As long as you guys know it's inherently wrong, that's all I care.
Aukney. Had to be put on the map by R.A., simply out of his relevance.
-Let's see...Well, it has a Lord and Lady Auk. A bunch of guards. Hmm...The fact that it had caravans going to and from it makes me think, maybe, that it isn't the smallest.
-As a point of trivia thing, anybody know the smallest city/hamlet/thorpe/whatever with an official listed population?
In 4E? I'm going to say Collinwood from the Backdrop Cormyr article with a population of 300. Unless you count Bezentil, which is a trading post with population of 200 in the Great Dale.
In 4E?
-In published Forgotten Realms, period.
-In published Forgotten Realms, period.
Wow. Now that's a challenge. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some town somewhere with an official population of 1 or even 0.
-Let's see...Well, it has a Lord and Lady Auk. A bunch of guards. Hmm...The fact that it had caravans going to and from it makes me think, maybe, that it isn't the smallest.
From what I recall, it is pretty small--thinking 500 (actually think smaller). But, then again, I can give you no clear cut answer at the moment. I remember the "Lord" receiving the title as sort of a, well...title thing.
Wow. Now that's a challenge. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some town somewhere with an official population of 1 or even 0.
1 or 0 doesn't qualify as a town!
I win this time!!! :evillaugh
During most of the year, it is a CITY with a population of 0. :D
Also, in the east there is the large city of Kuo Meilan (which is NOT a ruin), and it is perfectly intact, even though it has been empty for centuries.
From having done the maps so much, I can think of a few more smaller settlements that are not in ruins, merely deserted, that have 0 populations (although monsters and outlaws tend to move into them pretty quickly.
Obviuosly, designers and authors make-up whatever numbers they want when writing something, with no RW-relation to the areas around them or the geo-political climate of the Realms. Take the 4e FRCG - the town of Loudwater has 2000 citizens, yet the map that comes with the adventure could not possibly support those numbers.
Canon sources may be 'canon', but they can also be wrong, and are open to interpretation. That being said, you were obviously right, and I'm just trying to cover my ass any way I can (I'm still shaking my head over Suldophor).
And if we want to continue my argument of 'interpretation', then are the subteranean parts of cities included? Calimport has a huge Sewer and tunnel system below it called '"Dark Calimport" (IIRC), but if we include Undermountain and Skullport as part of Waterdeep, then the numbers shoot up exponentially!
There are no exact numbers for the cities of the east, unfortunately, but there is one - Belanzia - that probably would have rivaled Shoonach in its heyday. That city also fell in 1153 DR, though. Considering the vast numbers of people living in the East, I would think there should be a few cities there that should easily rival Faerûn's 'top five'.
Yes, most demographics in the realms dont make much sense, but my point is that if someone asks a question about a city in these boards, and the question is in broad terms( therefore concerning the comon knowledge between players, ence cannon), one should try to respond in the most realiable way. The question was about city size in the realms(since kara-tur, zakhara, etc, are hardly featured within the realms, then it should not be considered), and by 2e, 3e and so far 4e, the reply was what i mentioned before.
More than once, i read people in these forum making arguments wielding facts that are just not true in cannon lore. That only causes pointless disscussion, confusion and discredict to the people that participate in the boards.
Thanks LK, i see i not the only one that notices the ''Waterdeep lobby'' presence.
If Waterdeep is NYC, what's Brooklyn?
Brooklyn = Longsaddle. ;)
Is Daggerford then New Jersey?
New Jersey = Boareskyr Bridge (think "pollution"). ;)
And does that mean that Undermountain is the subway?
Undermountain might be more like the NYC sewer system. ;)
Couldn't it just as easily be, say, the London of Faerun?
London = Leuthilspar (on Evermeet) ;)
Is Silvermoon Boston?
Boston = Selgaunt ;)
San Francisco = Silvermoon :D
If Waterdeep is NYC, what's Brooklyn?
-Waterdeep. All of the city.
Is Daggerford then New Jersey?
-Jersey is whatever Rin wants it to be.
And does that mean that Undermountain is the subway?
-Does the subway system have monsters living in it? Wait...
Couldn't it just as easily be, say, the London of Faerun?
-No.
Is Silvermoon Boston?
-Perhaps.
Longsaddle as Brooklyn might work for like, Park Slope, but where I live feels more like Luskan or Calimport. (Bustling, busy, and with fatcat developers and yuppies moving in and threatening to drive rents way up). Jersey's a bit more complex than just "pollution."
Just for fun and giggles -
Brooklyn = Longsaddle. ;)
New Jersey = Boareskyr Bridge (think "pollution"). ;)
Undermountain might be more like the NYC sewer system. ;)
London = Leuthilspar (on Evermeet) ;)
Boston = Selgaunt ;)
San Francisco = Silvermoon :D
Sembia's way to warm for boston.
I would've said Neverwinter or Luskan, but ... well, you know...
Jersey's a bit more complex than just "pollution."
Boareskyr Bridge has an upstream side also. ;)
I'll stop now.
-Jersey is whatever Rin wants it to be.
LOL, thank you.:D
I agree that New Jersey is complex. It's a heavily populated state, but there are plenty of great natural areas there, too. Cape May is reknowned throughout the world for being a great birdwatching site (and it's a great historical location, too).
Having just been to Brooklyn, I'd say it'd have to be somewhere multicultural, and have a beach.
Well, I mentioned Bildoobaris earlier.
During most of the year, it is a CITY with a population of 0. :D
By all technicality, that would probably be considered a waymeet.
Also, in the east there is the large city of Kuo Meilan (which is NOT a ruin), and it is perfectly intact, even though it has been empty for centuries.
An abandoned city.
From having done the maps so much, I can think of a few more smaller settlements that are not in ruins, merely deserted, that have 0 populations (although monsters and outlaws tend to move into them pretty quickly.
Again, as above.
While I doubt my numbers are dead on (been a while), anything with a population of 1 - 500 is a village--or a hamlet, depending on how it is structured. 501 - 10,000 is a town. 10,001 to 100,000 is a city. 100,000+ is a metropolis and is generally immediately bordered by other cities/towns/villages.
And, of course, terminology for what is actually what is made generally.
Anything with a population of 0 can't technically be any of these.
For instance, Calimport is a HUGE city, and yet, there have been a few times where the population only numbered a few thousand, technically making it a town.
So does a settelement go by its size, or its populatiopn?
In the east, there is also the massive city of Balanzia, which now how a few hundred 'derelicts' re-occupying it, after it was deserted a century or so ago.
Its popualtion would indicate it's a village, even though it is the size of a large metropolis.
Just something to ponder.
When I do my version of the maps, I differentiate between a ruin, semi-ruin, abandoned settlement, and 'ancient ruins'. An example of a semi-ruin would be Myth Drannor, before it's re-occupation. An 'Ancient Ruin' is one so old, weathered, and/or destroyed that it is impossible to say who even built it (like the ruins in the Tun marshes).
I also have a seperate icon for "occupied Ruins", which Balanzia above would be an example of. It means there is a population calling it home once again, but it is nothing like what it once was (and not neccessarily of the original race, either). Most of the cities in Veldorn/The Beastlannds would qualify as that sort.
So a town or a city, that was abandoned for any reason for some length of time (as Calimport was several times), but then is re-inhabited by a small population (at first), is considered what?
For instance, Calimport is a HUGE city, and yet, there have been a few times where the population only numbered a few thousand, technically making it a town.
That’s what I meant with terms being used generally. You’ve got a place like Auckney that will never be confused with a city, yet may be termed as a town. And then you have the city of Calimport—which actually was a city—still referred to as a city, even though its population doesn’t meet the requirements (at times).
If the city of Chicago was laid waste by plague, I, myself, would still call it a city, simply on the basis of what it was. The fact that 300 survivors still inhabit the place, really doesn’t make it so. It becomes an uninhabited /abandoned/ deserted city, etc….
So does a settelement go by its size, or its populatiopn?
A settlement should go by its population. That settlement may have a thousand acres of land to tend to, but if only 300 people remain during the off season and a thousand shows up only for the farm season, it is still a village/hamlet. During the farming months it may reach the size of a town, but its still—at its core—nothing more than what it is.
In the east, there is also the massive city of Balanzia, which now how a few hundred 'derelicts' re-occupying it, after it was deserted a century or so ago.
As above.
When I do my version of the maps, I differentiate between a ruin, semi-ruin, abandoned settlement, and 'ancient ruins'. An example of a semi-ruin would be Myth Drannor, before it's re-occupation. An 'Ancient Ruin' is one so old, weathered, and/or destroyed that it is impossible to say who even built it (like the ruins in the Tun marshes).
I also have a seperate icon for "occupied Ruins", which Balanzia above would be an example of. It means there is a population calling it home once again, but it is nothing like what it once was (and not neccessarily of the original race, either). Most of the cities in Veldorn/The Beastlannds would qualify as that sort.
As you should. I’m just sayin’, as we term things here in the U.S., the technical definition may vary.
If Waterdepp had been consumed by the Spellplague, I would still call it the City of Waterdeep. But, on a map, I would put: Waterdeep – Po. 0. Not the City of Waterdepp – Pop 0.