Is Wulgreth of netheril and Wulgreth of Ascalhorn the same person? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Is Wulgreth of netheril and Wulgreth of Ascalhorn the same person?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
pete8441806
Mar 25, 2009 3:56:26 Is Wulgreth of Netheril (WoN) and Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (WoA) the same person?

- 408 DR - Karsus slays WoN turning him into a lich

-286 DR - WoN takes up residence in Karse

883 DR - WoA flees Hellgate Keep (Ascalhorn) and goes to Karse

also 883 DR - WoA tries to take the power of the dead god Karsus, he then becomes a lich.

or are there 2 lichs both named Wulgreth who both had a connection to Karsus?
#2
The_Simbul_of_Aglarond
Mar 25, 2009 4:03:06
Is Wulgreth of Netheril (WoN) and Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (WoA) the same person?

No.

Wulgreth of Netheril, a demilich, was slain by Galaeron Nihmedu and his companions, although I attribute much of their success to that party including Melegaunt Tanthul.

Wulgreth of Ascalhorn still existed as a lich in the previous edition of the game, circa 1374 DR, and his phylactery--the Karsestone--had fallen into the hands of Shar. However his current status in 1479 DR is unknown, and I think it is profoundly unlikely that the Karsestone is still in Shar's hands.

The full story/explanation can be found in Lost Empires of Faerûn.
#3
pete8441806
Mar 25, 2009 4:55:23 Just dusted off my copy of lost empires and reading it now, thanks for the help
#4
The_Simbul_of_Aglarond
Mar 25, 2009 6:05:46 The lore is found in the description of Karse on page 110.
#5
markustay63
Mar 26, 2009 0:54:45 Actually, I think they were meant to be the same person originally, but because of temporal-snafus, they had to say they were different people (You know... two seperate individuals - both Liches - who got involved with karsus on some level... yeah.... riiiiiiiight...)

They did the same thing with Obould - someone made a boo-boo with some dating, and figured out they had an Orc living WAY past a hundred, so they made him his own Grandpa. :D

A very similar thing happened with Khelben as well, and they 'fixed' that by sending the real Khelben Arunsun to Greyhawk (also making him his own Grandpa).

Lots of 'Jerry Springer' moments going on in the Realms.... :P
#6
pete8441806
Mar 26, 2009 1:07:54 The other thing that made it sound fishy was that his name is Wulgreth of Ascalhorn and Ascalhorn is called hellgate keep in 886 DR is it not, which means Wulgreth of Ascalhorn must have been a resident of Ascalhorn before it became hell gate keep.
#7
BadCatMan
Mar 26, 2009 2:58:17 Or these are simply common names. Like in our world. :p
#8
Krash
Mar 26, 2009 17:14:01 The answer is simply this: Slade's references to Wulgreth in that product of products, the "Netheril" boxed set, seemingly ignored the references to Wulgreth in FR5 "The Savage Frontier". Eric discussed this informally with a few Realms writers and we agreed that there would be two Wulgreths which was then canonised in Troy Denning's Shade novels and then in subsequent products like LEoF. It was the simplest and neatest option available and a stark lesson in the damage caused by 'writing in a vacuum'.

-- George Krashos
#9
Krash
Mar 26, 2009 17:16:14
The other thing that made it sound fishy was that his name is Wulgreth of Ascalhorn and Ascalhorn is called hellgate keep in 886 DR is it not, which means Wulgreth of Ascalhorn must have been a resident of Ascalhorn before it became hell gate keep.

882DR actually. And you can lay the blame for the transition from Ascalhorn to Hellgate Keep at Wulgreth (of Ascalhorn's) feet. Ambition and magery often make a potent cocktail of woe.

-- George Krashos
#10
pete8441806
Mar 26, 2009 20:43:17
882DR actually. And you can lay the blame for the transition from Ascalhorn to Hellgate Keep at Wulgreth (of Ascalhorn's) feet. Ambition and magery often make a potent cocktail of woe.

-- George Krashos

thanks for the insight :D
#11
markustay63
Mar 26, 2009 21:41:10 Cocktail of Woe... whats the save on that? :D

Note: The lore BOTH used was derived from a bunch of material TSR aquired when it bought SPI's Dragonquest game.

Netheril, Karsus, and a LOT of the history of Netheril and the North were taken from the Dragonquest game - for a VERY brief time TSR was producing material for both fantasy RPGs, and even came-out with one or two duel-system modules - one of which was The Shattered Statue (which technically takes place on two different worlds; FR being one).

The Dragonquest module that the Netherease stuff came from was called The Enchanted Wood, and rather then let all of that good lore go to waste, they shoe-horned it into FR at the beginning.

So Technically, both Wulgreth and Karsus are from some other setting and some other game entirely, and two different designers both decided to use the old Dragonquest stuff that was laying around... without consulting each other. Two NPCs that appeared in BOTH modules also wound-up as the 'narrators' of Savage Frontier! The author of all three of those just so happens to be the same guy - Paul Jaquays.

Slade obviously mined the Dragonquest IP without consulting others.

Which is why in some of Ed's older novels, it doesn't appear that Netheril fell all that long ago (just centuries), because originally, I don't think it was supposed to be that long ago in the past.

As FR's history became more and more cluttered, the timeling got 'stretched' to accommodate everything, and we wound up with sevral 'doubles' of people.

So yeah... you can tell yourself Wulgreth is a common name... but the truth is that some RW folks screwed-up early on.
#12
lord_karsus
Mar 26, 2009 23:50:22 -The names of two or more of the leaders of the Eldreth Veluuthra were also from The Enchanted Wood.
#13
treesplitter_dup
Mar 28, 2009 12:07:08 I might have to look up [i]The Enchanted Wood[/i} now.

Thankyou.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pete8441806 Mar 25, 2009 3:56:26	Is Wulgreth of Netheril (WoN) and Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (WoA) the same person? - 408 DR - Karsus slays WoN turning him into a lich -286 DR - WoN takes up residence in Karse 883 DR - WoA flees Hellgate Keep (Ascalhorn) and goes to Karse also 883 DR - WoA tries to take the power of the dead god Karsus, he then becomes a lich. or are there 2 lichs both named Wulgreth who both had a connection to Karsus?
#2 The_Simbul_of_Aglarond Mar 25, 2009 4:03:06	Is Wulgreth of Netheril (WoN) and Wulgreth of Ascalhorn (WoA) the same person? No. Wulgreth of Netheril, a demilich, was slain by Galaeron Nihmedu and his companions, although I attribute much of their success to that party including Melegaunt Tanthul. Wulgreth of Ascalhorn still existed as a lich in the previous edition of the game, circa 1374 DR, and his phylactery--the Karsestone--had fallen into the hands of Shar. However his current status in 1479 DR is unknown, and I think it is profoundly unlikely that the Karsestone is still in Shar's hands. The full story/explanation can be found in Lost Empires of Faerûn.
#3 pete8441806 Mar 25, 2009 4:55:23	Just dusted off my copy of lost empires and reading it now, thanks for the help
#4 The_Simbul_of_Aglarond Mar 25, 2009 6:05:46	The lore is found in the description of Karse on page 110.
#5 markustay63 Mar 26, 2009 0:54:45	Actually, I think they were meant to be the same person originally, but because of temporal-snafus, they had to say they were different people (You know... two seperate individuals - both Liches - who got involved with karsus on some level... yeah.... riiiiiiiight...) They did the same thing with Obould - someone made a boo-boo with some dating, and figured out they had an Orc living WAY past a hundred, so they made him his own Grandpa. :D A very similar thing happened with Khelben as well, and they 'fixed' that by sending the real Khelben Arunsun to Greyhawk (also making him his own Grandpa). Lots of 'Jerry Springer' moments going on in the Realms.... :P
#6 pete8441806 Mar 26, 2009 1:07:54	The other thing that made it sound fishy was that his name is Wulgreth of Ascalhorn and Ascalhorn is called hellgate keep in 886 DR is it not, which means Wulgreth of Ascalhorn must have been a resident of Ascalhorn before it became hell gate keep.
#7 BadCatMan Mar 26, 2009 2:58:17	Or these are simply common names. Like in our world. :p
#8 Krash Mar 26, 2009 17:14:01	The answer is simply this: Slade's references to Wulgreth in that product of products, the "Netheril" boxed set, seemingly ignored the references to Wulgreth in FR5 "The Savage Frontier". Eric discussed this informally with a few Realms writers and we agreed that there would be two Wulgreths which was then canonised in Troy Denning's Shade novels and then in subsequent products like LEoF. It was the simplest and neatest option available and a stark lesson in the damage caused by 'writing in a vacuum'. -- George Krashos
#9 Krash Mar 26, 2009 17:16:14	The other thing that made it sound fishy was that his name is Wulgreth of Ascalhorn and Ascalhorn is called hellgate keep in 886 DR is it not, which means Wulgreth of Ascalhorn must have been a resident of Ascalhorn before it became hell gate keep. 882DR actually. And you can lay the blame for the transition from Ascalhorn to Hellgate Keep at Wulgreth (of Ascalhorn's) feet. Ambition and magery often make a potent cocktail of woe. -- George Krashos
#10 pete8441806 Mar 26, 2009 20:43:17	882DR actually. And you can lay the blame for the transition from Ascalhorn to Hellgate Keep at Wulgreth (of Ascalhorn's) feet. Ambition and magery often make a potent cocktail of woe. -- George Krashos thanks for the insight :D
#11 markustay63 Mar 26, 2009 21:41:10	Cocktail of Woe... whats the save on that? :D Note: The lore BOTH used was derived from a bunch of material TSR aquired when it bought SPI's Dragonquest game. Netheril, Karsus, and a LOT of the history of Netheril and the North were taken from the Dragonquest game - for a VERY brief time TSR was producing material for both fantasy RPGs, and even came-out with one or two duel-system modules - one of which was The Shattered Statue (which technically takes place on two different worlds; FR being one). The Dragonquest module that the Netherease stuff came from was called The Enchanted Wood, and rather then let all of that good lore go to waste, they shoe-horned it into FR at the beginning. So Technically, both Wulgreth and Karsus are from some other setting and some other game entirely, and two different designers both decided to use the old Dragonquest stuff that was laying around... without consulting each other. Two NPCs that appeared in BOTH modules also wound-up as the 'narrators' of Savage Frontier! The author of all three of those just so happens to be the same guy - Paul Jaquays. Slade obviously mined the Dragonquest IP without consulting others. Which is why in some of Ed's older novels, it doesn't appear that Netheril fell all that long ago (just centuries), because originally, I don't think it was supposed to be that long ago in the past. As FR's history became more and more cluttered, the timeling got 'stretched' to accommodate everything, and we wound up with sevral 'doubles' of people. So yeah... you can tell yourself Wulgreth is a common name... but the truth is that some RW folks screwed-up early on.
#12 lord_karsus Mar 26, 2009 23:50:22	-The names of two or more of the leaders of the Eldreth Veluuthra were also from The Enchanted Wood.
#13 treesplitter_dup Mar 28, 2009 12:07:08	I might have to look up [i]The Enchanted Wood[/i} now. Thankyou.