I mean, have you even seen what they talk about my people? First it begins on the back cover: "tyrannical empires", which clearly references to Netheril. Do I have to even explain the rest of the book? All the talk about "evil", "tyrrany", and "threat" are all insults to Netheril's pride. I mean sure, we saved Sembia from utter collapse and civil war, and sure, we civilized the primitives that covered Anauroch (people call it "subjugating", but that's just outright stupid), and the majority of Netherese worship Shar who is depicted as an "evil" and "shadowy" god, but does that mean we're evil? No, but WoTC seems to think so, while at the same time depicting Cormyr, Evereska, Luruar and Myth Drannor as democratic, shining places.
I demand WoTC call back all FRCG and FRPG books and re-release them without any offense material to Netheril.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
-That said, the Prices of Shade, the rules of the Shade Enclave, and their so-called "Netherese Empire" are all indeed evil. All have an Evil alignment.
the creation of drow was racist...
-Not really. Evil creatures coming from underground, and black creatures being evil are two tropes that have existed for hundreds of years. Black was a color that was held by the Romans as 'evil', and 'eerie' dating back over two-thousand years ago.
-Fake "Netheril" should crash and burn, yes.
-That said, the Prices of Shade, the rules of the Shade Enclave, and their so-called "Netherese Empire" are all indeed evil. All have an Evil alignment.
Well by that same logic, all drow are evil. ALL.
Well by that same logic, all drow are evil. ALL.
-Incorrect. 'Drow' is not a central authority governing a single nation-state. The Princes of Shade, however, are.
-Incorrect. 'Drow' is not a central authority governing a single nation-state. The Princes of Shade, however, are.
Why would that still qualify as "evil"? Did Netheril not bring civilization to Anauroch and its inhabitants? Saved Sembia from utter collapse? Just because "shadowstuff" and "Shar, goddess of shadow" are depicted all as evil shouldn't mean they're strictly evil, scheming masterminds.
I am still petitioning WoTC for removing all offensive content of depicting Netheril in such despicable ways.
There is one thing I actually do not get. The Shadovar are well aware Netheril perished due to all its cities being on the bottoms of mountain-tops...so why would they raise them in the same manner?
Why would that still qualify as "evil"?
-Their alignments are listed as evil. Thus, they are evil. Dungeons and Dragons does not make distinctions between subjectivity and objectivity. If it says they are evil, they are evil, objectively.
Did Netheril not bring civilization to Anauroch and its inhabitants? Saved Sembia from utter collapse? Just because "shadowstuff" and "Shar, goddess of shadow" are depicted all as evil shouldn't mean they're strictly evil, scheming masterminds.
-Netheril did not do any of this. Netheril crumbled hundreds of years ago, after the Archwizard of Archwizards was betrayed by the harlot Mystryl. The Shade Enclave, acting independently of Netheril, brought "civilization" to the Bedine of the Anauroch, and instigated the civil war in Sembia.
There is one thing I actually do not get. The Shadovar are well aware Netheril perished due to all its cities being on the bottoms of mountain-tops...so why would they raise them in the same manner?
-It is impossible for them to raise them in the same exact manner. Proctiv's Move Mountain does not function. Regardless, the leaders of the Shade Enclave did this for the same exact reason why they wished to control only the theoretical borders of Netheril from centuries ago: Restoration of the empire they belonged to.
Their alignments are listed as evil. Thus, they are evil. Dungeons and Dragons does not make distinctions between subjectivity and objectivity. If it says they are evil, they are evil, objectively.
Yeah, tell that to the inhabitants of Eberron. :D
But I would think that even in Forgotten Realms, the world should not be divided between pure evil and pure good. Even if the Twelve Princes are listed as "evil", that should not mean they're 100% scheming, evil cunning masterminds all bend on total world domination (even if Faerun rightfully belongs to Netheril).
I am still petitioning WoTC for removing all offensive content of depicting Netheril in such despicable ways.
Good luck with that one, mate. Be sure to let me know how it comes out for you.
Yeah, tell that to the inhabitants of Eberron. :D
-Eberron, ultimately, like the Forgotten Realms, toes the line of D&D rules when gaze through using the prism of said rules.
But I would think that even in Forgotten Realms, the world should not be divided between pure evil and pure good. Even if the Twelve Princes are listed as "evil", that should not mean they're 100% scheming, evil cunning masterminds all bend on total world domination (even if Faerun rightfully belongs to Netheril).
-Being evil isn't "100% scheming, evil cunning masterminds all bent on total world domination". Being evil is evil, as defined in the Player's Handbook. It comes in various shades and colors. The Princes of Shade, there are different personalities, all with different kinds of evil.
-As an aside, Faerûn never belonged to Netheril. Even the Shadovar, when returning to the Prime Material Plane, never claimed such. They simply strove to reclaim all of which Netheril used to, declaring their empire the "new Netheril".
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
How about this instead: WoTc is generally inclined to label all individuals of a ___(you filin the blank) based strictly on the moral code of a particular few of that same ____.
There that sounds more P.C.
"So sayeth the sheperd, so sayeth the flock"
I guess that makes me a racist, then.
And here I thought I was such an 'open-minded' gent. :P
Imaskar is In.
Hail the new evil (not defined as such in the FRCG so you can't prove it... hurray for absence of detect evil spells!).
the creation of drow was racist, Miyeritari blood redemption just makes it worse
drow being black isn't racist, it's just one race, you have duergar, illithids etc., but they don't get much attention
tough they did screw up with Miyeritar, made them suspicious
also 4e FR is more male dominated, it has that ''women should be at home'' feeling
at least some improvement, what's the color of Imaskar, purple?
-Yeah, yeah. Aren't Drow purple as well? ;)
Get over it Scrin, Netheril is a failed society full of egomaniacal archmages that can't accept that its days are over and done with... the last gasp of a dead and pathetic culture that societal evolution left behind long ago.
*cough*Drizzt, Elminster, anti-4e FR people*cough*
...oh my. I need a cough drop.
WoTc is generally inclined to label all individuals of the Empire of Netheril based strictly on the moral code of a particular few of that same CORMYR SUCKS!!!!!!.
There. That's as intelligent as I'm getting today.
Now if you all don't mind, I'm going to practice darts on a image of King Foril, and after that I'll be going hunting elves in Cormanthor, cause it's Elf Season.
Not a cough drop, more like a lobotomy you shadow addled, nature hating, dark loving, elf-hating, round-eared Netherese heathen. Hope you get eaten by a pixie... :P
Nature hating, oh yeah. That's why we're restoring the Anauroch Desert to its former glory. :D
new wannabe Netheril ought to be kicked out.
thus, didnt care for old imaskar, like new imaskar
thus, didnt care for old imaskar, like new imaskar
-Huh. I'm the exact opposite. The real Imaskar was pretty cool, but the 'new' Imaskari is a pale imitation. Just like the real Netheril and the current 'new' Netheril. And Myth Drannor- though, having a city-state is much different from having an entire state (Cormanthyr).
I mean, think about it... it makes perfect sense in the new Realms. Shade was just a prelude to the zany, wackiness of things to come in 4e.
Now, if I brought Shade back, I would have it done it MUCH more effectively, and everyone would have loved it (but I'm just uber-kewl that way :P ).
They had a chance to fix the 'Shadows in the desert' problem with the 4e Spellplague, but chose not to. Strangely enough, Anauroch was left untouched, when thats the one area I would have loved to see be re-invented (for the Shade Enclave, not for my own home game, where I ignore the Shades, mostly).
I would have cracked open the earth (you know... like they did EVERYWHERE else) and had a MASSIVE volcano erupt right there in that mountain range, spewing ash into the skies for a hundred miles around (and DARKENING most of the desert in the process). Truly, a "Land in Shadow".
Of course, then we all would have cried that it was too Tolkien-derivitive (Mordor), but I'd have preferred that to a bunch of people who thrive in shadow living in the middle of the desert.
I mean really... do they even think about the crap they write?
-A lot more could have been done with the City of Shade, in the eight years or so it existed in the 3e era, and in the couple of months that it took for the designers to plan the 4e Forgotten Realms, and the subsequent time since it's been released.
-Shade would have been much better off as an isolated LN city-state, struggling to come to terms with the world around them, both internally (as in social order) and externally (as in foreign politics), than a LE city-state with designs of empire building.
That was the very first time I actually had to think long and hard if I wanted to ignore something canon.
After that, it just became easier and easier...
For me, at any rate.
Like you (and most people, I would imagine), I spun my FR so that things I liked took the forefront, and other things took the backseat.
Shade was the very first thing I ever thought about just tossing out completely, as if it never happened.
I did eventually decide against just losing it, since I wasn't planning on going into the Anauroch anyway, and even if my players did, I'd be able to steer clear of that silliness regardless.
But still... that was the first time I remember saying to myself "I'm not using THAT!" in regards to Realms lore.
Like I said, I'm sure everyone has a line, and for many it was 4eFR itself, but I can remember these feelings creeping in toward the beginning of 3e even, at least for me at any rate.
At the time I didn't recognize it as "the beginning" - one never does - but in hindsight I can definately see that was the point that FR started looking like something 'not right' to me.
Think the first things I tossed out completely was the death of Ibrandul at Shar's hands... followed shortly by the death of Sylune... and Tanalasta being killed by that gazneth, I definitely tossed that one out when I found out about it, since I detested that ending. Oh, and 95% of her actions and behaviours in Cormyr: A Novel, despite loving the historical bits in it. So, yeah... been tossing stuff out as if it never happened for quite a while now. :D
-Huh. I'm the exact opposite. The real Imaskar was pretty cool, but the 'new' Imaskari is a pale imitation. Just like the real Netheril and the current 'new' Netheril. And Myth Drannor- though, having a city-state is much different from having an entire state (Cormanthyr).
well if I wanted to get technical.
Old Imaskari's Magic I like Better than Old Netheril's magic.
Just didnt care for the Old Imaskari culture.
But I like to think the Imaskari were abit more 'worldly', or perhaps I should say 'other-worldly'. The Weave would have just been one of many paths the Artificers would have persued enroute to power.
After all, Hilather (Halaster) became "Shar's creature", in his own words (El in Hell). I would assume he dabbled in the Shadoweave to have come to that end.
Thats why Netheril was able to go so much further with certain things - the Mythalars were really highly-focused 'Mini-Weaves'. Without that tight focus the Netherease had on Arcane magic, the Imaskari never really went far with field-effects magics, like Spell Mantles and Mythals.
They did master tapping into other sources, however, like powerful beings themselves (using some almost like giant, magical 'batteries').
They were both cool, but I see them as very different paths.
never thought of tossing the shades out, I was positively surprised how the PCs reacted to them, they were especially emotionally involved in the game when shades were around, terrified
then I read RotA and realized people imagine shades quite differently
now about racist wotc, beside Miyeritar and sexism, 4e FR also introduced the fall of black cultures, making Chultans savages and Turami xenophobic bigots unlike before when they had a democracy
I got banned the last time I said that same thing here...
They actually accused ME of being racist (using 'Hate Speech') just for pointing it out.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
Just didnt care for the Old Imaskari culture.
-There wasn't too much on it. Or, rather, isn't.