Any information is much appreciated
btw; I did enjoy the book and excited to see what happens next.
I wonder if it was planned. I mean, with Shar's little play thing gone, she can again achieve monopoly over sorcery.
By the gods ! you may have something there .....
Please, no more Mystra, no more Eliminster. Just leave it as it is.
X2 here
SOOOOOOOOOO sick of Mystra, her Chosen and all that goes with it. Leave it alone. It is refreshing and darker the way it is.
Please, no more Mystra, no more Eliminster. Just leave it as it is.
X2 here
SOOOOOOOOOO sick of Mystra, her Chosen and all that goes with it. Leave it alone. It is refreshing and darker the way it is.
X3, no not that horrible travesty of a movie! Mystra makes Jean Grey's constant resurrection look amateurish. Seriously, keep them in the ground! xD
To me, I see Mystra's death as the event that fully brought back the great Mother Dark to Abeir-Toril. Holler if you know what I'm talking about! ;)
Praise Shar, I'm back baby! buahaha
Please, no more Mystra, no more Eliminster. Just leave it as it is.
X2 here
SOOOOOOOOOO sick of Mystra, her Chosen and all that goes with it. Leave it alone. It is refreshing and darker the way it is.
X3, no not that horrible travesty of a movie! Mystra makes Jean Grey's constant resurrection look amateurish. Seriously, keep them in the ground! xD
To me, I see Mystra's death as the event that fully brought back the great Mother Dark to Abeir-Toril. Holler if you know what I'm talking about! ;)
Praise Shar, I'm back baby! buahaha
I've always been a big fan of Shar. She's always struck me as one of the more realistic deities - a goddess I could imagine people worshiping in real life. Sure, the whole destruction of the world may sound strange, but when you really think about it - it's not all that different from the most popular religions of the real world. Countless millions of Christians, for example, eagerly await the "End Times" where they believe they'll be whisked away to Heaven. Sure, horrible things will happen during the "End Times", but only those who weren't faithful will suffer. There has also never been a shortage of suicide cults. Toss in a good dose of nihilistic philosophy - both nihilistic morality, and nihilistic views on existence... and Shar doesn't really seem that odd.
The world is filled with pain and loss. You're destined to die, everything you've worked toward forgotten and trampled by those who come after you. Shar offers the world a small mercy - an end. An end to pointless existence, an end to suffering, all you and the world must do is embrace the quiet and comforting darkness - the long eternal night. Pretty straight forward.
I've always loved using Sharran cultists for political intrigues and the like - their penchant for secrecy and amorality makes them perfect in so many ways. They were also great for strange mysterious cults - front groups for recruitment into the Sharran faith.
Though, if we're honest, the reason Shar has seen a rise is because they've ruined the former "big bad" villainous deities - Cyric and Bane. With each embarrassing loss, they lost more and more creditability. It didn't help that they and their faithful were portrayed as idiots.
My worry is that Shar will ultimately suffer the same fate. Of course, it seems that they're trying to avoid that by ensuring that Shar has some victories under her belt - hence her successful killing of Mystra. I can't think of anything Cyric successfully pulled off on his own - he didn't even achieve godhood on his own merits. The killing of Mystra? He appears to be nothing more than Shar's pawn. Bane is worse. The only real serious success I can remember him achieving was coming back from the dead.
Interesting points there Meldread... can't say I much like her, the done to death thing, but you do make some compelling arguments in her favor there.
Please, no more Mystra, no more Eliminster. Just leave it as it is.
X2 here
SOOOOOOOOOO sick of Mystra, her Chosen and all that goes with it. Leave it alone. It is refreshing and darker the way it is.
X3, no not that horrible travesty of a movie! Mystra makes Jean Grey's constant resurrection look amateurish. Seriously, keep them in the ground! xD
To me, I see Mystra's death as the event that fully brought back the great Mother Dark to Abeir-Toril. Holler if you know what I'm talking about! ;)
Praise Shar, I'm back baby! buahaha
Totally with you - must be an avatar thing!
Cyric killed Midnight, not Mystra.
Mystra just needs a new Avatar is all.
I'm in favor of keeping Mystra dead.
ALL PRAISE THE LADY OF LOSS!
I would happily join a 'keep mystra dead' club.
I'm in favor of keeping Mystra dead.
ALL PRAISE THE LADY OF LOSS!
I would happily join a 'keep mystra dead' club.
one that Shar does not know
A secret hides in the light
A soul can rise above
The Sun burns the darkness away
I make no sense whatsoever
Amuantor has a secret
one that Shar does not know
A secret hides in the light
A soul can rise above
The Sun burns the darkness away
I make no sense whatsoever
Nowhere can a secret keep
always secret, dark and deep,
half so well as in the past,
buried deep to last, to last.
Keep it in your own dark heart,
otherwise the rumors start.
After many years have buried
secrets over which you worried,
no confidant can then betray
all the words you didn't say.
Only you can then exhume
secrets safe within the tomb
of memory, of memory.
~ excerpt from The Book of Counted Sorrows
Praise Shar.
the darkness will be burnt by the light of the dawn's firts rays- church of LAthander
I love how this thread is starting to turn into "Church of Shar vs Church of Mystra."
It's always been thus with any thread with Mystra in it.
its a mystery that shar would love it if you forgot about it.
the darkness will be burnt by the light of the dawn's firts rays- church of LAthander
Sounds like a witch-hunt to me. You keep talking about burning stuff. Is Amaunator/Lathander's church full of arsonists? :P
Lathander can burn all he wants, but the fact of the matter is, the sun is a star and no matter how bright stars shine in the heavens, they are still scattered amongst an expanse of dark empty space they can never illuminate. Stars burn out eventually, imploding to become gaping maws of entropy. Sweet, sweet irony.
A rain of shadows, a storm, a squall!
Daylight retreats; night swallows all.
If good is bright, if evil is gloom,
High evil walls the world entombs.
Now comes the end, the drear, Shadowstorm.
-xoxo Shar <3
heehee
Corellon called. All y'all Shar-hugging losers can go shove it.
Yeah, we'll shove it alright. We'll shove it up where his moon don't shine! xD
Btw, I found it amusing that your facebook profile had the same name and pic. We have a friend in common. :P
Kosssuth called, he said BURN THE HERETICs taht lick Shar's ugly arsed body
Praise Mystra and welcome her return!!!
Well, I guess I'll be the one to represent here.....
Praise Mystra and welcome her return!!!
Praise the ARt!
Corellon called. All y'all Shar-hugging losers can go shove it.
Yeah, we'll shove it alright. We'll shove it up where his moon don't shine! xD
Btw, I found it amusing that your facebook profile had the same name and pic. We have a friend in common. :P
Yeah, it's not exactly hard to find me anywhere I am on teh intarwebz. It's pretty much all some variant of Nai Calus. I don't have the same userpic on facebook that I do here though. :P My facebook pic actually is a picture of me, although you'd be hardpressed to recognize me IRL from it. XD I don't have pointy ears, gold hair and don't dress like an elf IRL.
Finally, the goddess of trasmitted diseases. I don't even wanna touch that one.
Any deity that resorts to copulating with mortals in show of favor or w/e do not deserve to be worshiped, unless it's part of their domain/portfolio. (Sune, glorious you *kank! :P)
Shar and Mystra do have alot in common, their followers dont have to fight. I could see some over lap with the Secret and Mystery domains, you know?
That and Mystra was formed from a part of SHars divine essence...
Shar and Mystra do have alot in common, their followers dont have to fight. I could see some over lap with the Secret and Mystery domains, you know?
Spies fighting over info. Having the same portfolio just makes them rivals.
Shar and Mystra do have alot in common, their followers dont have to fight. I could see some over lap with the Secret and Mystery domains, you know?
Spies fighting over info. Having the same portfolio just makes them rivals.
If Shar were truly representing her portfolio, and her sheeple really were into the doctrine, you'd think they'd be happy that their Lady lived up to her rep and once more, lost out to Mystra. Yet again. Go find yourselves a real goddess, like Loviater, or even Talona...
If the FR deities were real, Sharess totally wouldn't be a demigoddess. Best. Afterlife. Ever. ;)
That's something I never really understood about the Realms. Why would anyone worship a deity such as Talona, when you KNOW your afterlife is going to suck? Unless you intended to become a lich, vampire, or some other form of undead that's the biggest mistake you could ever make.
I mean, compared to the afterlife of MOST evil deities Shar's is pretty pleasant - you pretty much fade into nothingness. Not too bad. It's better than being Bane's bitch, Loviatar's plaything, or some pox-ridden horror that Talona offers.
Sharess has the best afterlife because its an afterlife based entirely around whatever pleases you. Endless pleasure. Plus, it's an endless crazy party - all the booze, drugs, and sex you could ever want... minus everything negative about them. No worries about STD's. No worries about hang overs. No downside of addiction. Just pure ecstasy.
That doesn't even go to mention the fact that you'd be eternally youthful and down right sexy - every imperfection you were dealt in life erased. That's a better afterlife than most real world deities offer. ;)
"Life is to be lived to its fullest, in decadent sensual fulfillment of yourselves and others. That which is good is pleasurable and that which is pleasurable is good. Pleasure is to be sought out at every opportunity and life is to be lived as one endless revel. Spread the bounty of Sharess so that all may join in the endless revel of life and bring joy to all those in pain. Infinite experiences await those who would explore, so try the new as well as savoring the old."
That's a pretty easy Dogma to follow as well... sign me up. Those who'd follow a crappy deity like Talona must have negative intelligence and wisdom modifiers.
Sharess has the best afterlife because its an afterlife based entirely around whatever pleases you. Endless pleasure. Plus, it's an endless crazy party - all the booze, drugs, and sex you could ever want... minus everything negative about them. No worries about STD's. No worries about hang overs. No downside of addiction. Just pure ecstasy.
Yeah, just ask Charlie Sheen! oh wait ...
ROFL. I said without all the downsides.
Besides, there is more to a Sharessian afterlife than just booze, drugs, and sex. I mean, I'm sure if you love nature there is lots of it there. (Just ignore the people behind the bushes.) Hell, I bet if you love books there are perhaps an endless number. (Just ignore the people living out their naughty librarian fantasies.)
As to Loviater... if you're into that sort of thing, there's a definite appeal. Especially the being her whipping post part. If you're into it.
As to Talona, there's a lot to be said for spreading her love if you're of a vengeful mindset.
Shar though... nihlistic nothingness... loss and forgetfulness... sorry, just don't see it appealing to a lot of people. Most of the simpletons I know just can't imagine the world without them in it, as if it would all just end without them being there, it never occuring to them that they're gonna get old (gasp!) and die (double gasp!!) someday. Sure, some might like the notion, but enough to make her a greater deity... its a rather large stretch to me. To be honest, I think she'd scare the living hells out of most people, who'd run screaming around in circles at even the mention of her.
Sure, there are lots of reasons an individual has to worship a deity. ...but I'm talking more in terms of afterlife. For example, let's say in life you worshiped Loviatar because you enjoyed inflicting pain and suffering on others. You were a total sadist. However, sadism is different from masochism. In death you're no longer the one tormenting others, Loviatar is the one tormenting you. And the pain Loviatar will inflict will be FAR worse than the pain any mortal could inflict upon another. The worst part? There is no way to end it.
Compare this to Sharess. If you get off on S&M Sharess is totally down with that so long as it is consensual. So unless your driven by an innate desire to be purposefully cruel to others (i.e. a psychopath), Sharess offers the better alternative. The main difference between Sharess and Loviatar when it comes to kinky S&M fantasies? Sharess believes in safe words and Loviatar doesn't.
My main problem with most afterlives the deities offer is that they're eventually going to become boring. Sure, I'd love to visit Oghma in the afterlife and browse his vast storehouse of knowledge. I could spend centuries there... but after that? I'm bored. Since the afterlife of Sharess is predicated upon personal gratification I can obtain a degree of what most other deities offer while still having the flexibility and options open to something else. Sure, there is lots of sex, drugs, booze, and cats... and those things will become boring, eventually, but the nature of Sharess is counter to allowing such boredom to take place. Thus, as you become bored new wonderments and delights should open up to you. In other words: The longer you stay with Sharess, the better it gets.
-----------------------------
When it comes to Shar, though... I don't think a lot of people worship her in the way that you think. There is likely a sizable chunk of people who are hardcore believers, who are completely behind Shar's overall goal. The largest chunk of her power likely comes from lip service, in the same way Umberlee or Talos receives the bulk of their worship. People naturally would offer prayers to Shar during the night. She also likely receives prayers when an individual loses something of importance to them, as she is both the goddess of loss, secrets, and forgetfulness. People would also pray to her when they want to forget a particularly traumatic event (especially from anyone who experiences PTSD). In times of grief, particularly after the death of a loved one, Shar likely also receives prayers as the goddess of loss... the hope being that by appeasing her she'll not inflict more loss on them. She'll likely also receive prayers when someone wants to keep a secret or hide something from others. As well she'd receive prayers for those seeking hidden or lost knowledge / lore / magic.
In addition to ALL of the above, she's also receiving credit for every prayer delivered to Ibrandul – which covers dungeons, caverns, and the Underdark. So adventurers likely send a lot of prayers to her unknowingly.
Then there is her faiths strong penchant for creating false cults in her name.
So by the end of it all? Yes, I think Shar has more than enough worship to qualify as a Greater Deity, especially one of the more powerful deities. Her hardcore faithful are but a fraction of the worship she receives on a daily basis.
Okay, I ran some math to try and determine how much worship Shar actually receives. I looked up some stats from the Catholic Church to determine the number of Catholics world wide and the number of priests. I required something to use for comparison, since no similar stats exist for the Realms. I used that information and along with a heavy dose of "guesstimation" here is what I came up with...
First off, some things that should be taken into heavy consideration. I am estimating that the TOTAL population of Faerûn hovers around 100 Million. I rounded numbers to make the math more smooth. Most people in Faerûn are polytheists and offer prayers to multiple gods regularly. In the most extreme cases they practice a form of monolatrism - the belief in many gods, but the worship of only one.
As a result, most deities receive some degree of lip service when an individuals life intersects with their portfolios. However, some deities offer similar "services" and thus may compete with another deity for that lip service. For example, Shar likely competes with Selune when it comes to people who are praying for fear of the night. Selune is seen as more benevolent, and thus likely receives the bulk of the prayers. However, nothing excludes an individual from praying to both deities "just to be safe."
Offering prayers to a deity doesn't mean you support the deity or accept their personal philosophy. As a mortal, you're praying to ward off any harm / negative consequences, or to receive some help / positive consequences for doing so.
In addition to all the above, it's important to understand that, as a general rule, Lesser and Demi-Deities are regional deities. What separates the Greater Deities from all the others is that they are commonly known throughout Faerûn. This means if you stop a commoner and ask about the deity, they've likely heard of them. The influence of Intermediate deities stretches throughout Faerûn, but they are generally slightly less known. Lesser Deities are known throughout the bulk of Faerûn, but there are still some remote areas in which they are completely unknown. Demi-Deities are completely regional deities. For example, it's unlikely that the bulk of Faerûn has heard of Gargauth, Hoar, Velsharoon, Shiallia, Eldath, or Garagos. However, they may enjoy a great deal of popularity in certain regions and among certain groups. This is a general rule, however, and there are exceptions... but as a general rule, it does apply to Shar - she is widely known throughout Faerûn.
With all of the above in mind, if we assume that the TOTAL population of Faerûn hovers around 100,000,000, and that only 16% of the population is willing to pray to Shar on a semi-regular basis, that gives Shar 16,000,000 Prayers. I define semi-regular basis as praying to a deity at least several times a year. Shar likely receives the highest amount of her lip service during periods in which the Moon (Selune) is waning, in particular during the New Moon.
Now, obviously the bulk of these prayers are nothing but lip service. The rest is divided between secret cults and other such things. This is not the same as direct devotion, those who embrace Shar as their Patron deity. Out of the 16,000,000 who pray to Shar, only 5% actually take her as a Patron deity. This results in 800,000 devoted followers across all of Faerûn.
Since we've determined the total number of individuals who've taken her as their Patron, we can then get a good idea of how many Clerics she has within the faith. Thus, out of the 800,000 faithful who take her as a Patron less than 1% - 0.04% to be exact - become Clerics. This gives Shar a total of 320 Clerics spread throughout Faerûn.
These Clerics, obviously, would vary greatly in power. Shar's faithful are divided into cells and are scattered about operating in secrecy.
In my opinion this would be on the larger end of average for a Greater Deity. It should be noted, however, that I did not factor Netheril into this math. If Netheril is included these numbers increase.
I can see your point about the afterlife, though I'll point out that it neglects the notion of petitioners eventually being reincarnated, once they learn whatever it is they're supposed to or just fade away. Its not really a 'forever and ever' sort of afterlife, at least last I checked, and presuming 4e didn't utterly mess with the ways the planes worked, beyond a bit of reorganization of how they 'looked', which is pretty subjective in the first place as far as I'm concerned.
As to Shar... still don't really see how or why most would find her appealing, at least if they actually bothered to learn what her dogma actually was. Lip service, yeah, sure, I'm there, I can see a lot of reason to give her that. Actual devoted worship... personally, I'd say the figures you came up with sounded about right for devoted worshippers, though I'd include Netheril in with it. Sure, I could see a lot of people being 'duped' into worshipping her, without really understanding what it was about, but the problem I see there is that they'd probably end up as False, at least in my interpretation of that aspect of Faerun's afterlife.
Then again though, the devs and I tend to have radically different ideas of how faith would actually work in a setting like Faerun.
The problem with that assumption is that not all people are sane and logical. People are also motivated by different incentives.
Stigger -
I wasn't aware that the souls of the dead are reincarnated. I thought that, over time, they eventually faded away to join the essence of the deities plane of existence.
The problem with that notion, while it certainly isn't eternity, we still don't know how long it really takes. Are you suffering under the lash of Loviatar for a week before you fade away? A Month? A Year? Centuries? Millennia? Eons?
Then there is the whole issue with time working differently depending on the plane you happen to be in at the moment. So what SEEMS like five million years to you on the plane was really one week on the Prime Material Plane.
I'd imagine that most deities - assuming they have some control over it - opt to give their faithful time to "enjoy" their afterlife. So, we're probably looking at something longer than an elven lifespan. Some deities - assuming that they have control over it - may allow their faithful to merge into the plane early if that's their desire.
So, here you are – a faithful of Talona – chillaxing in the Barrens of Doom and Despair with your goddess. Her home plane sounds like a delightful place to visit sometime. What do you imagine your afterlife to be like?
Frankly, I can't imagine any sane individual worshiping most evil deities unless they had some plan for immortality. I'd rather be placed in the Wall of the Faithless than worship half of them. Shar's afterlife sounds like the LEAST worst out of all possible options - most likely you'd arrive to be enveloped in shadow and darkness, embraced by your goddess, overwhelmed by a sense of loss and hopelessness, and then quickly thereafter fade into nothingness.
MR._T -
The only problem with that notion is that we're talking about Greater Deities. By definition these gods have many followers. Sure, you can chalk a lot up to insanity, but that only goes so far.
While its true that people are motivated by things OTHER than the type of afterlife they'd receive it has to be something to rest heavy on their minds. Let's say you're a human worshiper of Bane. You've ruled your lands like a Tyrant and have given the faith much strength and popularity in your lands. Now, you're eighty-eight years old. You're a human. You're on your death bed. The end is approaching. Do you worry about your afterlife? I'd say yes. Are you perhaps looking for a more amenable patron – perhaps seeking out that priest of Ilmater to beg for forgiveness? I'd say yes.
The problem with the notion that people are motivated by things OTHER than the afterlife is that... these people are basically using the gods to get what they want. To use the human tyrant example above, he wasn't REALLY faithful to Bane. He just wanted the gifts and powers Bane offered. When his end arrived, and those gifts were about to be left behind... well... why not turn to another deity who is going to offer you something better?
Keeping in mind, of course, that this is a polytheistic society, so there is a lot less stigma about changing your deity than in a monotheistic culture. Praying to multiple deities, even the enemies of your deity, is likely common. Even assuming that Ilmater wouldn't accept him as a servant, just attempting could be enough to ensure that his patron changes.
The worst case scenario? He ends up in the Wall of the Faithless. That's still a better deal than what Bane was offering.
Bane doesn't have the advantage that devils have – as mortals use them in a similar way. Sure, you sell your soul for power. Then as you're dying you want a way out. Doesn't work with a devil, you're going to the Nine Hells whether you like it or not. With Bane? You're not selling your soul, you're worshiping a god and as such you can choose another patron.
As to the idea of reincarnation, last I looked, and keep in mind this is 2e/3e stuff I'm going off of, the amount of time it took to recycle was variable, depending on how well a given soul learned the lessons of their deity and transcended their afterlife.
Though I think a key point here is that the average schmuck in Faerun probably has no real concept of what the afterlife is going to be like with any given deity. Some guy worshipping Bane probably thinks he's going to his just rewards and gettings to lord it over other idiots... only to be in for a rude awakening once he's dead. Way too many people out there think they're 'special' and entitled to whatever they like... which I'd say was particularly common for those of evil alignment, so they delude themselves because they're arrogant and not a little lacking in foresight.
Which I suppose would explain why so many were actually into Shar I guess, answering my own question and telling me that my initial assumption there was a little naive and giving people too much credit.
Guess I'm in a cynical mood today...
LOL.
Yes, well I generally agree with you. It's not that I don't think people would pray to evil deities or seek to worship them out of a desire for something they offer. It's very similar to imagining people selling their souls to devils and demons. And yes, I can imagine there are more than a few suckers out there who believe that an afterlife with a goddess of torture and cruelty is going to be an insane amount of fun - especially if you're a sadist.
However, even the naive and stupid wake up eventually. There is only so long such deities can play the shell game. And thus, I don't see why most evil gods would rise to the status of Greater Deity - at least if you're basing such things off numbers of worshipers. Many evil deities likely receive lip service from numerous people - Shar, Talos, Umberlee automatically come to mind - but unless you're a tyrannical overlord who is going to pray to Bane?
The only way I see Bane working as a deity and achieving Greater Godhood is if he were worshiped in this manner: You'd pray to Bane when you had a hated enemy or rival. Bane would declare that hatred has power, and that by simply hating someone enough the lives of their enemies could be ruined. (Just imagine it as a twist on the whole positive thinking will bring good things to you belief in popular modern culture.) He'd also declare that the world was filled with terrible and fearful things, and that only through prayers to him could an individual find protection from the terrors of the world. Finally, he'd also have to spin his tyranny portfolio into something more positive: Prosperity only comes through order, chaos will only lead to the downfall of civilization, and a leader must stem the tide of dishonesty and betrayal within his subordinates at all costs.
So... who then would pray to Bane? People who are living in chaos and anarchy would welcome Bane into their lives as a deity that would provide them with stability. Humans are naturally creatures of habit and like for their leaders actions to be predictable. It is better to be ruled by a tyrant than a madman - it is better to know what displeases the leader than to constantly fear losing your head by his insane whims. Leaders throughout Faerûn - primarily in the ranks of various military associations - would pray to Bane to help them deal with the unruly and insubordinate. Political leaders would pray to Bane to be guided in their affairs, helping them maintain order, stability, and fighting back insubordination. Finally, people who had an extremely hated rival would pray to Bane, hoping that their hatred would be enough to bring about that rivals undoing - with a little divine help, of course.
That's the best spin I could put on Bane. Assuming that he could hide how crappy his afterlife was, with the proper PR he could be somewhat widely worshiped - especially in nations that valued order over personal freedom. The chances rise even higher when a population feels their security is under threat - Bane is like a big daddy who'll come to protect you. Sure, he's generally unpleasant and frequently beats you - but it's better than the alternative.
I agree. We likely share a similar political philosophy (including a cynical outlook on the world).
If you spin Bane the way that I did it... I could imagine him having a great deal of followers - including being the mandated state religion in some nations.
However, how do you spin a deity like Cyric? When I imagine Cyric this is what I picture:
Yeah, totally not helping his badass cred at all.
Cyric is so pathetic I feel sorry for him. At best he's a cartoon villain. At worst, Wile E. Coyote looks like a Chess Master by comparison. Even in his crowning moment of awesome he looks like a total dope, Shar gets all the credit, and he takes the fall. It's even worse that he was imprisoned afterward because he would have actually looked better had he died just like Velsharoon.
Or better, they could just have had Asmodeus eat him, claimed Shar was behind it, and keep Azuth around - making him the god of magic, that way we wouldn't have to endure going through the motions of Mystra's inevitable return.
Bhaal did a better job
Bhaal did a better job
Bhaal was cut down by a mortal. He'd have done a better job if he had stayed alive...
Gomez
Bhaal... yeah, he and Myrkul were actually pretty good as villains went, especially Myrkul, since you could also use him as an ally to really confuse things, and do both fairly convincingly. Something I alway enjoy doing to my players is giving them a bitter for today under one set of circumstances, only to turn them into an ally (much) later on in the campaign under a different set of circumstances. Of course the inverse of that is just as much fun, even moreso in a lot of respects...
In my experience most people who like Bhaal have played the Baldur's Gate games. Keeping in mind he failed even there cannonically... simply look at what he "accomplished" in novels before the Time of Troubles. Bhaal was just as big of a failure as Cyric, and perhaps equally as stupid.
Really, a lot of the evil deities that were popular to use during the time of TSR got 'tainted' by their mandated rule that evil must never win or be placed in a favorable light. So most evil deities, Cyric included, were just turned into bumbling clowns.
On the flipside, having nothing to do with TSR, evil deities have the same problem as many Super Villains. They just don't make sense. Sure, there have been "evil" deities worshiped in real life polytheistic societies, even deities that have demanded human sacrifice, but I'd caution against using worship as we and those in the Realms would define it. It was almost always methods of appeasement rather than worship. It's more along the lines of how every sane Sailor mumbles a prayer to Umberlee before setting off to sea. Deities like Umberlee who demand appeasement or bad things will happen make sense.
Deities like Cyric and Bane (as depicted in cannon) don't.
Those types of deities need to be more slick, more pragmatic, more subtle. In order to make sense, they need to find a way to get common Joe to mutter prayers to them, while slowly corrupting and twisting them to the Dark Side. I've always viewed evil in D&D as a real and tangible force that was slow and corrupting. It wasn't so much IN YOUR FACE (like Bane and Cyric) as subtle and insidious... which to me makes it more frightening because it can begin to twist the hearts and souls of anyone. Evil should be frightening and scary, as well as offer quick paths to power and success... at a price, of course.
Too many evil Realms deities look like Super Villains, and thus it's hard to take them seriously. They end up getting the Cyric treatment.
Here. I'll give an example of what I'm talking about using Cyric.
Cyric
Prince of Lies, the Dark Sun, the Black Sun
Portfolios: Murder, lies, intrigue, deception, illusion, strife
Revised Dogma: Words can hurt and heal - there is nothing wrong with telling a lie if it helps cover up an ugly truth. Lying is a natural part of life necessary to protect the innocent that we love. Prayers to the Prince of Lies never go unheard or unanswered.
Methods: All are sheep to Cyric; he preys upon any mortal who speaks lies to hide the truth from others. He encourages obfuscation, making it seem that it is alright to hide the truth, even making it seem benevolent. However, the Prince of Lies is naturally deceptive and his methods merely an illusion to corrupt mortals to his twisted faith.
Those who conduct political intrigue are particularly acceptable, but it is a mistake to believe that Cyric only goes after the powerful. No, even the common man can fall under his sway - from the man who lies to his wife about an affair, to the mother who lies to her children to protect them from an ugly truth. No one is safe.
Even the smallest of white lies lead to another lie that is necessary to cover up the former lie. In the worst cases the entire mortals life is wrapped up in lies and intrigue, unable to escape the spiders web that Cyric has encouraged them to weave around themselves.
Eventually, the Black Sun will begin to visit their dreams and whisper suggestions to them. His goal is always to entangle mortals more and more into the web they weave... until they destroy themselves or commit some heinous act such as murder.
In some cases Cyric will even betray the liar by revealing a twisted version of the truth (always worse than the actual truth) to the ones they are lying too. This arouses suspicion and in turn encourages more lies.
Example: Let us say that there is a man cheating on his wife. He must lie to his wife and family, and perhaps is even lying to his mistress as well. The man whispers prayers to Cyric as he desires his lies to sound more believable. They do, for awhile... until servitors of Cyric begin to cause his wife and family to notice certain things about his story.
They eventually send the wife dreams of her husband with another woman. The woman is more beautiful than she is... her husband speaks badly of his wife insulting her where she feels the most vulnerable. For example, if she is concerned about her weight the dream will have the husband insult her based upon that fact. It will do everything it can to twist the womans mind against her husband. This will happen again and again, slowly at first and then virtually every night until the end. Her husband will realize his wifes suspicion and will attempt more fervent prayers to the Prince of Lies to hide the truth.
Their marriage will slowly disintegrate. The children will watch as their parents argue and fight. Each parent separately will receive dreams of the horrible things the other is doing, all of course based in truth but twisted slightly into a lie. Finally, whichever one is most likely to commit the vile deed they'd begin receiving dreams of murdering their spouse.
Freedom! The dream will show them. Freedom to be with the one they really love. All they must do is commit this one act and hide it from everyone... the Prince of Lies will help, of course... all you must do is pray to him.
All of it is a lie, of course. When the murder happens the one who commits it is discovered and executed for the crime. The children are orphaned and the dreams appear to them as well. Encouraging them to lie to their friends and others around them. Fears of being rejected due to the actions of their parents... and so the cycle continues.
This is how Cyric operates. He works his way into the lives of mortals through lies and deception. He twists the truth he reveals to others in a way to purposefully create strife. His ultimate goal is to get them to murder another individual, always twisting and misleading them toward that final end.
In this way Cyric can manipulate not only families but entire nations. Cyric -NEVER- delivers on his promises. His goal is only to create strife and force the individual telling the lies to tell more lies, to deceive more people, until they find themselves trapped.
The only way to end the cycle is to tell the truth and accept the consequences of your actions. In doing this the power of Cyric is broken.
Revised Clergy: Cyric's clergy are unique in that they typically operate alone or in very small cells. Few actually make the decision to commit their lives to the worship of Cyric, virtually all are chosen - individually handpicked among mortals. All of them are bound to Cyric by lies and crimes that would result in their death. Betraying Cyric or his faith is a death sentence as it is certain that the lies they tell would eventually be revealed. The Clergy of Cyric operate as normal individuals in society... they could be anyone... anywhere. They can range from beggars on the street to ruling monarchs. Even the clergy of other faiths are not safe, for even they at times feel compelled to lie, and Cyric is ever watchful of them - waiting for an opportunity to corrupt. When a cleric of another faith is brought into the service of Cyric it normally spells great trouble for their associated church. Cyric has a particular soft spot for orphans, having been one himself in his mortal life. Not surprisingly he preys upon them and many find themselves in service to his faith.
Revised Afterlife: When a Cleric of Cyric dies they are brought to his home plane to continue their service in death. They act as his servitors, aiding him in sending dream visions to mortals like those described in the example above.
However, Cyric also receives the spirits of ALL who become wrapped up in a web of lies due to his influence. This is considered accepting Cyric as your patron by default - even if unknowingly. These individuals afterlife is not so pleasant as that of his priests.
Each individual who arrives finds themselves having to hide one important thing from everyone else. This one thing, should it be revealed, will result in the destruction of their spirit. (Being absorbed into Cyric's home plane.) Always the servitor is tempted with the life of happiness they believed they would have received in life. Everything is a lie. They know it is a lie. Yet, constantly they find themselves tested... happiness always just beyond their reach, even as it stands right in front of them.
Cyric takes particular delight in seeing how long such spirits can last before giving up and telling the truth... only to be absorbed into his home plane, empowering the Prince of Lies for all eternity.
Of course the inverse of that is just as much fun, even moreso in a lot of respects...
You can do fun thigns with this. I ahd PCs ally with drow to fight other drow, work for an evil sorceress to earn crucial information, aid a priestess of Malar, or work with an evil necromancer. I even have good-aligned worshippers of Loviatar (actual good people, but how far wil you trust them?).
Though the best groups are those from which you cannot tell what side they are really on. People who are in it for themselves, and whose motives to help you or oppsoe you may differ from time to time.
Hmm. I think it is time Mask returns.
Gomez
As to Bane being in your face... I can't say I've ever really seen him that way, unless he was trying to distract you from something else he was doing. I know that from a canonic sense, he was a flaming moron, but that's yet another reason I avoid Realms novels as a whole with a few exceptions. My view of Bane is that he was happy to have so many visible failures so that his foes wouldn't see the really insidious, subtle stuff that was happening, since Banites just didn't do things like that. My personal take is that twits like Fzoul were stalking horses... people who didn't really matter that much to him, while the guy who subtly undermined and took over a local government without being noticed were the guys who really had his favor. Finessing the yoke on and getting you to thank them for it was preferred over the blunt instrument who just asked the local adventurers to come and kick his face in. Kinda like stage magic there, its all in the misdirection and ledgerdemain. Of course I could also see Bane using a lot of different guises as minor little 'local' deities to confuse the issue and hiding his actions behind them.
As to Bhaal, I kinda liked the whole obvious evil thing about him. He was always good for some fun, even if he was a little campy. He made for a good distraction, when you just felt like some good, old-fashioned stomp the evil guy's head amusement. Serious villainry... well, that was best left to other deities, but he had his place in my games anyway. Bane's lackey and fall guy I suppose is how I'd define him... The Help, as it were.
@ Gomez
One of my favorite notions was of a Loviatan sect that promoted her as a goddess who helped people by pointing out what could harm them, thus actually helping people to survive, and providing contrast so that they could appreciate the joys of life much more fully. I described their temple as being filled with artwork that depicted life's pains in a positive light... the pain of giving birth to the joy of having children being the one that really freaked my players out at first. Portraying Loviatar as a teacher and guardian was actually a lot of fun. One of the things I had them stress was willingness, as in come to them willingly, or don't come at all, so they were actually bitter foes of the slave trade, as it violated free will and choice just by its nature. The best part is that they were still very evil in a lot of respects, just not a socially maladjusted evil, that stressed the lawful part of her alignment more, and which acted as the punishers and executioners for the government.
Of course the best part of that is that players decided to lead a slave revolt to overthrow Calimshan, and found themselves with these Loviatan allies who wanted to bring order and safety to the nation after so many years of chaos and disorder. Really freaked the living crap out of the paladin of Tyr when he found himself agreeing with most of the stuff coming out of their mouths and being impressed by their actions when he heard about them (since he refused to directly cooperate with them, smartly so 'cause I would have zapped him at first if he had)... one of my finer moments as a DM I thought.