So, how do we do it?
Please contribute your in-Realms events and thoughts to bringing about this massive sweeping change.
Mostly, I've decided to keep with canon and institute that Orcs are becoming more of a society that can interact with humans on a level other than ****/kill/burn.
Frankly, I prefer it to the abundance of good Drow. The issue now is how to bring it about realistically.
"Neutral" also don't mean "nice". It's not = to "good". And as most humans are neutral for me....
As for how... The rise of a religion that took them by storm, or some philosophy may have done it. Perhaps a great orcish hero, a figure, who was disgusted with the stupidity inherant at the 'let's kill everyone' mentality, but yet keep being real warriors? Or maybe Gruumsh Himself disalowed the guy or something.
Alideran, there is a problem called 'Always Chaotic Evil'.... Even Orcs should not be slaughtered like pigs, hunted and tracked down if there was no reasons, least one wonder if, as Nietszche said, you become as the monster...
For no reason no, I as DM give PCs the reason :D. The wonders of DMing
Not a good reason, the DM fiat.
Okay, we're moving Orcs from "Usually Chaotic Evil" to "Unaligned" (predominately neutral) in the Forgotten Realms over the period of the Spell Plague at our table.
So, how do we do it?
Please contribute your in-Realms events and thoughts to bringing about this massive sweeping change.
-It's going to be very hard, a stretch of the imagination. If only a certain subrace of Orcs were made 'unaligned' (Perhaps a "Obouldian subrace"), I could buy that. But, traditionally, and throughout Faerûn's history, Orcs, of all subraces, have been mostly evil. To have them all have a sudden change of heart, for no real reason, over the next 100 years, is a little stretch of the imagination. Some Orcs, mainly those in Obould's Kingdom, I can understand. All Orcs, such as Orogs, Grey Orcs, Blooded Orcs, and so on, not so much.
Cultures change.
But the culture of a whole SPECIES changing, in 100 years, without any high level of technology or communication?
Naw.
Okay, we're moving Orcs from "Usually Chaotic Evil" to "Unaligned" (predominately neutral) in the Forgotten Realms over the period of the Spell Plague at our table.
So, how do we do it?
Please contribute your in-Realms events and thoughts to bringing about this massive sweeping change.
That's not a sweeping change--it fits orcs perfectly, since they are just animals.
;)
-The only thing that sounds remotely feasible, is that in the 100 years since 1385 DR, the various cultures have kept to their own affairs, and that the current generation of Orcs (probably 3rd generation into the Spellplague, or so) aren't as warmongering as before.
Not a good reason, the DM fiat.
An Orc Hore is marching to Hammerhearth to pillage it.
Orcs took peasants as prisoners to sacrifice them in a ritual to Gruumsh.
Orcs where found choping wood in the High Forest.
There are thousand of ways to put orcs in the fire line.
1. The Collapse of the Underdark: Geological shifts from the Underdark cause a massive number of Orcs to pour through to the surface. These Orcs are more intelligent and have a higher cultural level than the rest of their kind, roughly equivalent to humanity. They mostly enslave their lesser brethren in Thar and join forces with the Chosen of Gruumsh in King Obould's lands.
2. The Arrival of the Scro: A large Scro Spell-jammer fleet settles down only to have its Helms rendered non-operative in the past one hundred years, thus rendering them harmless. The Scro proceed to wage a campaign of enslavement and education amongst their kind.
3. Steal from Robert Erwin Howard: A Priest of Mitra...err....I mean, Lathander, goes amongst the Orcs and educates them in the value of technology and other methodry. The Orcs largely absorb his teachings and dispatch emissaries across Faerun to other tribes sharing their secrets.
4. Grummsh's Blessing: All Orcs recieve a +2 to their Intelligence when Gruumsh slays his own Son, the God of Stupidity, and raises up Obould Many Arrows as the Orcish God of Cunning and Tactics in his place.
Orcs, sadly, lose -2 from their +4 Strength bonus due to the loss of their deity's mighty power.
5. The Dawn of Oruk-Hai: Halastar/Manshoon/Larloch/John Irencius is experimenting with Orcs as canon fodder and creates a large number of cloned "Paragon" Orcs that go forth across the land to teach them culture. They swiftly become leaders of many tribes and interbreed with them passing down some of their heightened qualities amongst the race.
Any other ideas?
First; players PC are special. The so-called abundance of good drow is not that much a problem, as they are much PC.
No, Pc's are NOT special, PC's exist in a world with other characters. Charles just told you that's how his world works, and yet you insist on bringing your philosophy into it. I would argue exactly the opposite, that there's no such thing as an NPC, and woe be to the arrogant person who assumes that the PC's are special.
Oh, and ironically, you've hit upon a crucial theme of being adventurers, sir.
Ready?
Monsters we are, lest monsters we become.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You could have wandering Odonti hear of their brothers troubles and offer to educate them in the ways of the Human gods and try to in particular educate the Orcs in the ways of civilization. This could lead to a lot of troubling roleplay scenarios as the PC's deal with Dwarves who want to slaughter the orcs, who are running around singing Eldath songs with the Odonti priest.
Second, the changes as announced so far seem to only affect Obould's Orcs, so its not as broad and sweeping change as some of you think. Elsewhere, an Orc is still an Orc.
Now, to add insult to injury with this problem, Orcs from EVERY OTHER REGION have a history of getting along with their neighbors (the big exception being the Orcgate {Warcraft} Wars). Read the lands of Intrigue - Orcs were slaves of the Shoon, right along side humans, and fought WITH the humans, and are allowed within towns and even openly INTER-MARRY with humans! (read the Purskul entry on Pg. 33 of the Amn book). That would mean that it was more then likely that the Orcs of Amn fought WITH the humans against the Sythillis Empire.
Also, the Orcs of The Ride (Ondonti) have lived in peace for millenia and are mostly farmers, and the Orcs of Thesk are considered heroes by the human population! There is also mention of Orcs and other Goblinoids in the Vilhon Reach book that trade with humans and are not openly hostile (although they still live in their own seperate villages).
And, of course, we have the Orcs of Vassa, ad the half-Orc village of Palishuck, that wants nothing more then to be ruled by a PALADIN (which is weird, considering he hunts Goblinoids for sport)
Strangely, it may have been the Zhents that pushed Ocrs to become civilized - they are part of the Zhentarrim and are even officers in the army (and in one very famous case, a General!). The Zhents do not tolerate stupidity (at least, not among the non-leaders :P), and their Orcs haved been trained to the point of military precision; they are not the usual mindless mob, but rather a well-disciplined fighting force (Read the Crusade novel). I'm not saying they have becme as 'civil' as their fellow human soldiers, but they can folow orders VERY well and behave in a VERY 'lawful' fashion. As General Vraak put it - "When they treat us like monsters, we BECOME monsters!"
There you go - right from the horses mouth.
In fact, the ONLY place in FR history where Orcs have been in a constant state of agression with humans (and others) is the North! Perhaps its not so weird when you look at it in that light - its not that all the Orcs have suddenly 'evolved', but rather one particular group has 'caught up' to the ones in the rest of the world.
Also, Obould and HIS Orcs had a history of being a 'good neighbor', and did not become beligerant until the Dwarves tricked them and took back the Citadel. At the time the Dwarves did that, Obould's army was outside the Citadel, fighting an ORC HORDE that had come down out of the mountains to raid. That means, at the time the Dwarves 'stole' back their Citadel, Obould was busy defending 'The North' from a rampaging Orc Horde!
I don't want to hear any crap about it being a Dwarven Citadel first, because if you are going to use THAT argument, EVERYTHING in FR belonged to someone else first! Don't even bother to go adventuring... because anything you find is technically someone else's property.
Why do you guys think that Orcs are always the bad guys? When Iouluam went on a rampage in Netheril and attempted to commit genocide, the Orcs were just defending THEIR HOMES -those mountains belonged to the Orcs for untold millenia before those EVIL human Archmages showed up.
Also, I blame the demihumans (Elves and Dwarves) for the human attitude about Orcs - before they came along, primitive humans and Orcs got along just fine, as evidenced by the material in the original The North boxed set. there was inter-tribal warfare, but they had that amongst themselves as well, and plenty of tribes fought their own race and were friendly with the other - thats why there is a huge Half-Orc population in the North - it had very little to do with '****'.
Don't blame the designers for changing the Realms - blame yourselves for not seeing the truth of things.
If Elves had not shown up, or Dwarves, their attitudes would not have transferred to the local humans (like the Netherese, and its canon that they were 'civilized' by the Elves), history may have taken a VERY different path.
Think about it - Orcs may be brutal, but they are still an intlligent species (meaning, you can TALK to them). Why would they continue to behave like mindless lemmings and throw themselves to their deaths in rampaging hordes every twenty years or so? Every time a Horde forms, there will always be a few that say "screw that" and stay home - and the rest get killed. Natural selection means that Orcs are breeding for Wisdom, because the stupid ones are out in front, getting butchered! Its was only a matter of time before there were more of the 'stay at home types' then the 'lets go kill some s__t' types, and Obould was just the Catalyst to get the ball rolling.
A strong, charismatic leader being able to steer an entire population away from its natural instincts and follow a path it would normally never have considered?
Shall I site certain historic references? ;)
And, for my finishing statement, I would lie to re-iterate the most important point - Obould does NOT control ALL the Orcs, just the ones from his Kingdom - the others still behave just like the Orcs you all know and love to kill come 4e.
A strong, charismatic leader being able to steer an entire population away from its natural instincts and follow a path it would normally never have considered?
Shall I site certain historic references?
Not without doing a hell of a lot of historical, cultural, religious, and cross-ethnic neurological studies.
Yes, I think certain groups tend to be certain ways, largely culturally (bad things propagate in cultures if they're not stopped, just as good things do), and maybe even some neurological differences.
"We are all the same." ********. Call me a bigot or whatever. ;) Growing up in a very culturally diverse area of the country made me more aware of the differences than anything else.
Have I made valid points?
I'm also interested in raising Orc tech level too, I want my players to note that not all Orcs are stone age barbarians.
I am just curious how the Grumsh/Talos religion will fare with all those changes.
Tempus will probably find a lot of Orcish converts.
Sounds too lawful for Gruumsh.
Orcs were Lawful Evil until 3E.
Lolth is the Queen of Chaos yet the Drow are the most civilized race in the Underdark.
4. Grummsh's Blessing: All Orcs recieve a +2 to their Intelligence when Gruumsh slays his own Son, the God of Stupidity, and raises up Obould Many Arrows as the Orcish God of Cunning and Tactics in his place.
Orcs, sadly, lose -2 from their +4 Strength bonus due to the loss of their deity's mighty power.
The Orc god Ilneval would pounce all over this opportunity with Baghtru getting killed by his father. Ilneval has historically wanted to knock off Gruumsh the moment that Baghtru wasn't around to "loyally" defend his father. Being the god of savvy battle strategy (for an Orc, that is), his timing and preparation for this event would result in an immediate wholesale civil war and internecine conflict amongst Orckind.
The Orc god Ilneval would pounce all over this opportunity with Baghtru getting killed by his father. Ilneval has historically wanted to knock off Gruumsh the moment that Baghtru wasn't around to "loyally" defend his father. Being the god of savvy battle strategy (for an Orc, that is), his timing and preparation for this event would result in an immediate wholesale civil war and internecine conflict amongst Orckind.
I'm not sure about that but yes, in a confrontation between Ilneval and Gruumsh and their followers. It would definitely end with Gruumsh once more triumphant over his foe. Likewise, Ilneval would probably have lost some of his place to the newly elevated Obould regarding tactics and strategy.
Thankfully, we have a century to get that sorted out.
Well this is true, though one could argue that most of the Drow are probably Neutral Evil anyway.
Depends on how you define the alignments which always varies from Table to Table. I always viewed Chaotic Evil as meaning ruled by passions and caring little for the absolutes of law. Not "we are incapable of any form of culture and live in an eternal primitive anarchy."
But how was my argument, otherwise?
Have I made valid points?
Valid factual evidence given to form conclusions which I don't feel are entirely plausible, but not impossible.
Valid factual evidence given to form conclusions which I don't feel are entirely plausible, but not impossible.
Overall, I'm thinking that the Zhenatariam may actually be a major factor in "civilizing" the Orcs. It's been my idea in Universe-616 that the Zhentariam have been trading "useless metal" from the region of Thar to the Orc peoples for decades by this point. They mine, take Orc slaves, and more or less take advantage of the race but give them tools along with generally exposing them to the outside world.
The Zhents, guilty of many evils that they may be, tend to be fair dealers in business so long as they're making a profit. Thus, many Orcs return from the Outside world with concepts of new tactics and buildings. Thus, the Orcs start enslaving other races to construct their own cities in Thar that are pretty bronze age in some respects and very much up to date modern in other ways.
Likewise, I'm considering that Gruumsh gives Obould the power to enslave the Orcs underneath him (perhaps by something as simple as a Rod of Rulership or Crown of Mass Charm) to enslave other tribes into constructing cities. Nesme and that other town from 1,000 Orcs that's rivals with Mirthal Hall start supplying it with materials and they start building their own cities in the past one hundred years.
It's an unpleasant and bloodthirsty race as every Non-Orc race is worked to death or offered on Gruumsh' altar while tribute is collected from every nation that isn't the Silver Marches. Ultimately, the Zhentariam also make use of portals to trade with them as well while plenty of Barbarians breed with Obould's kingdom.
Thus, the majority of the race becomes "Civilized" by those two lands changing.
Also, Obould and HIS Orcs had a history of being a 'good neighbor', and did not become beligerant until the Dwarves tricked them and took back the Citadel.
How dare the dwarves take back the citadel...that they owned in the first place?
They wouldn't need to take it back if it wasn't theirs to begin with. You make it sound like they were in the wrong to do so.
Also, THAT Obould is not the Obould of recent times (dealing with Drizzt, etc.).
They wouldn't need to take it back if it wasn't theirs to begin with. You make it sound like they were in the wrong to do so.
-He does that. Orcs, aren't, you know, evil or anything. ;)
No, Pc's are NOT special, PC's exist in a world with other characters. Charles just told you that's how his world works, and yet you insist on bringing your philosophy into it. I would argue exactly the opposite, that there's no such thing as an NPC, and woe be to the arrogant person who assumes that the PC's are special.
Oh, and ironically, you've hit upon a crucial theme of being adventurers, sir.
Ready?
Monsters we are, lest monsters we become.
To each his point of view. *shrugs*
For me, PC are in detail always a bit special... select % of the populace? Be it Awakened in Shadowrun, Eilistreans, Warforged in Eberron... Some % are more, much more adventurous.
Bah. One of the few things that old insane german got. The taint of blood, of vengeance, hate and all that.
I like Book's idea. The strategist surprisingly taking an advance in the orcish spirituality? Probably with a Prophet in the mahometan sense - warrior and mysic - to bring a new order in orcdom. Not necessarly too stretched.
The Dwarves lost control of the Citadel FOUR HUNDRED YEARS earlier! They gave it to humans, who lost it in a fight with Obould's ancestors.
Obould didn't attack anyone - he inherited the Citadel (and the only group he fought according to canon were other Orcs).
So if an American Indian comes knocking at your door, you'll gladly move out of your house, right?
Amazing how many people fail to apply the same rights to 'monsters' as they would to adventurers... who make a living out of attacking strongholds and robbing tombs.
I remember reading in another thread once about a dragon who was taking some adventurers to court in Waterdeep, because they slew it's mate and stole its horde! I thought that was the COOLEST idea I ever read!
The next time I find a Spanish Galleon of the American Coast filled with Gold, Rino, I'll be sure to give it all back to Spain.
-Legally speaking, I am fairly sure that the vessel, and it's contents, do belong to Spain. Of course, when you find a sunken Spanish Galleon, filled with gold ingots, the law be damned. Of course, this also depends on how close to the American shore the vessel is. All coasts a mile out are considered soverign American territory. These boundaries extend further, but they deal with natural resources, the ability to patrol the seas, and so on. I am sure the ICC has a ruling on the matter.
It's sort of one of the problems humans have with Elves.
"This is elf land!"
"It's been human for two centuries!"
"I was here just in my childhood!"
Let's not bother mentioning the many RL cases where its also the case.
You're not supposed to think what the Duegar think that they're about to be invaded by a bunch of Dwarves ticked off about their occupying their home in Mirthal Hall.
yeah - this is sadly the reason for Kosovo's troubles...
-The Bosnian War, the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, and the recent flare-ups in the Balkans are a tad more complex.
Let's face it.
You're not supposed to think what the Duegar think that they're about to be invaded by a bunch of Dwarves ticked off about their occupying their home in Mirthal Hall.
-I don't have my Underdark sourcebook handy...Are Duergar even native to the Upperdark? Offhand, I don't think so.
-I don't have my Underdark sourcebook handy...Are Duergar even native to the Upperdark? Offhand, I don't think so.
I believe my point is less they're native to the Upper Dark than they were living in Mithral Hall since Bruenor's childhood and then, well, the Citadel was reclaimed.
I believe my point is less they're native to the Upper Dark than they were living in Mithral Hall since Bruenor's childhood and then, well, the Citadel was reclaimed.
-Yes, I understand that. If they aren't native to the Upperdark, they technically shouldn't have even been there to begin with. Just thinking outloud.
I guess the Duergar just found the allure of Mithril too great. Either that or they'd become more or less slaves of Shimmergloom.
But good point.
Yes, well the Drow aren't native to the Underdark either. Yet they're there.
-The Upperdark? No, I believe they, too, are native to the Middledark.
-Drow are native to the Underdark. Dark Elves aren't. While normally synonymous, the differentiation of the two terms is important when keeping timelines in mind.
-The Bosnian War, the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, and the recent flare-ups in the Balkans are a tad more complex.
yeah.... But the old excuse of lost serbian lands, I meaned.
The Dwarves GAVE the Citadel away, and Obould's ancestor's TOOK IT from HUMANS, not Dwarves. If anyone has a case, it would be the humans, but since none of them are around anymore, none of them are complaining.
And by Rights of Salvage, the Gold in the Spanish Galleon would be MINE, as long as it was found in international waters. Items 'recovered' on public land belongs to the Gov't, and stuff found on private property belongs to the owner.
I know - I dug up the porcelin head of an antique Micky Mouse Doll, and had to hand it over to the homeowner. I learned my lesson... and the next time I found comics on a job...
Also, Hawaii was a Kingdom allied with the US originally, and American businessmen ILLEGALLY imprisoned the rightful ruler and looted the Palace! The Hawaiin historical society has spent the last thirty years or so tracking down and BUYING BACK it's Imperial Heritage!
Thats just sad, but it is the way things work - possession is 9/10 of the law, even back in medieval times (in fact, back then it was like 100%).
Also, to say it belonged to the Dwarves FIRST is a bad argument, because the LAND it was on belonged to the Orcs long before the Dwarves came along, and probably even before they INTERLOPED to Toril.
Are Orcs native to Abeir-Toril?
All of the Demi-humans are not, so where does that leave us? Do aboriginal peoples have more of a right to something then people from 'elsewhere'? That would never hold up in today's modern courts, and I certainly doubt the courts of Faerûn would be any better.
The real question is how a lot of people will react to the "newer" and more "friendly" Orcs. FYI, I'm going to be shifting around things a bit. Gruumsh will definitely have promoted Obould to Demigod by this point and increased Orcish intelligence.
Gruumsh is Chaotic Evil but that doesn't mean he's the Mindless Berserker Type. Only he's got no respect for Honor, Laws, and Treaties unless they benefit him.
I know - I dug up the porcelin head of an antique Micky Mouse Doll, and had to hand it over to the homeowner. I learned my lesson... and the next time I found comics on a job...
-Like I said before, if no one says anything...Know what I mean?
That would never hold up in today's modern courts, and I certainly doubt the courts of Faerûn would be any better.
-Most of the courts of modern Faerûn would scoff at most of the notions we are bringing up here.
Well, they've never been purely evil in my games anyway. So, so it's a matter of degrees on my part.
That's how I'll handle it in my games. (It's practically how I handle it anyway.)
Some orcs will be evil, some will be good, others will be Evil, and others will be Good - with little e and big E evil orcs being most common.
The small e evil and small g good are unaligned orcs, who tend towards one or the other. Your standard orc village will be little e evil.
Trial by Combat!
-That, everyone understands.
Not to debate on how an orc had a bad childhood and how I should just give peace a chance.
My gamers make Darwin's natural selection look wishywashy, with no live enemy left behind them, orc or otherwise.
That's just my and their styles, what works for me probably not for you.
Have Fun, Selunatic2397
Copyright© Mark Zug
You just gotta love the big, ugly lugs! :D
Copyright© Mark Zug
-That looks, to me, like the top of a pagota.
Have the Orcish race be spiritually directionless for a while until some of the other Gods picked them up as worshippers; mostly this would be the more evil gods, but hows about the idea that some of them where attrached to the N tenents of Lathendar... his portfolio with strength, discipline and proving yourself seems to fit an Orcish mindset......somewhat.
Alternativly have some of the Ordonti who escaped Zentil Keep (ones perhaps a litle too 'damaged' to fit easily back into their home tribes i.e. PCs!) travel amongst the Orcs after Grummsh is gone- they don't convert the Orcs to pacisim but perhaps get them to settle down rather than raid, trade rather than pillage and slowly take them away from CE and towards LE or LN.
And you USanians just wait! Once we Brits ally with China and Russia, we'll demand you surrender to us and become a colony again, and you're gonna pay us all taxes due since 1776, plus interest! You were ours, and we're gonna own you again!
Which is illogical, since most have moral, there are few true amorals.
You're missing the point: An unaligned character in 4E could be the most pious goodie-two-shoes or the most heinous of villains, but he wouldn't be either good or evil unless and until he puts in the conscious effort to choose one side over the other. Or at least that's the impression I've got.
In other words, there's only two extremes, vile and exalted, and everything else is a shade of gray in between.
Trial by Combat!
Your assessment is, in fact, correct!
That is largely what would happen!
The problem is, in that case, your world is a lot different from mine in that you don't have a lot of 20+ level characters willing to fight for the side against the orcs.
The Dwarves lost control of the Citadel FOUR HUNDRED YEARS earlier! They gave it to humans, who lost it in a fight with Obould's ancestors.
Obould didn't attack anyone - he inherited the Citadel (and the only group he fought according to canon were other Orcs).
Source?
Also, if these facts are so crucial, why did you omit them the first time?
I don't want to get snippy with you, but I also don't appreciate the other comments you sent my way. Please don't take this to a personal level.
Also, you used the term "took back the citadel", which implies it was rightfully the dwarves possession in the first place.
I was under the impression that unaligned in 4E does not mean "neutral" so much as it means "amoral" -- in order for someone to be evil (or good) they really, really have to mean it.
That still doesn't mean "unaligned" = "amoral".
It can mean amoral, but it doesn't have to mean that. A person who agrees with goodly ideals but isn't a force for good is probably going to be unaligned in 4E.
90% of the people in the world are not Crusaders for any particular good or evil, with the remaining 10% divided amongst active campaigners.
Very good points Markus and largely what I'm going for.
I'm also interested in raising Orc tech level too, I want my players to note that not all Orcs are stone age barbarians.
I always pictured them as fitting the Viking / Mongol style. Harsh societies, chieftans ruling through might and threat of force (and raiding, to keep their people happy!). The raiding would be a large part of why other neighboring races hate them, swooping in on their horses, shooting arrows everywhere (or pulling up in their longboats and hacking people up and demanding tribute or they'll burn the place down).
Their tech wouldn't have to be that advanced, so long as they can domesticate animals, work missile weapons and / or pilot boats. They could even retain a -2 Int penalty and be functional along this mode. Rome had very advanced armies and tactics, but the 'barbarians' still took the fight to their walls. Change it around to have the 'barbarians' be much stronger than the human (elven, dwarven, whatever) defenders, and possibly having other advantages (such as improved nightvision) over some of them, and the Orcs could be a credible threat despite an Int penalty.
But the idea of Ilneval engineering a fight between Gruumsh and Baghtru (encouraging his idiot brother that Gruumsh was favoring Ilneval, and / or was 'weak,' or plotting against Baghtru), and then striking down Baghtru from behind as he wrestles with his weakened father, attempting to deal the death-blow, leaving Gruumsh visibly weakened, saved by his 'clever boy' from the 'treachery' of his strong-but-simple favored son, that's kinda neat. Gruumsh is still alive, but a shadow of his former self, nursing wounds from his near-death at the hands of his monstrously strong first son, and wounded in spirit from the betrayal, and the sight of his 'traitor' son dying in his arms. Ilneval is now in charge, as Warchief, while Gruumsh has entered his senescence, and, ironically, has become something of a god of shamen and elder councilors, of something he's never been known for, a god of *wisdom,* said to see more with one eye than most other gods see with two. He knows what Ilneval has done, but his time of rage is ended, and he saw all-too-well in the dying eyes of his firstborn son where his ways had led his people. He hopes now to temper his second son's ambition, and better serve behind the throne than he did upon it.
"See once, look twice." say the Clerics of Old One-Eye. "That which you seen can be a lie, especially if it is what you wanted to see. Trust not the eyes alone. Look to the soul of a thing. Listen not to words, but to the tone of one's voice. Look not upon the rings on his hands, but to the callouses on his palms. It is not the shine and sparkle of the steel that kills a man, it is the strength of the edge. Look past the surface. See the truth."
I tend to go with Unaligned meaning exactly that.
90% of the people in the world are not Crusaders for any particular good or evil, with the remaining 10% divided amongst active campaigners.
Not being a crusader doesn't make one "amoral", which was my point.
Amoral means lacking any kind of morals whatsoever.
God, this thread is annoying (though truth be told, I'm not in the best mood, either).
And the orcs were brought to Abeir-Toril from other worlds, which later resulted in the Orcgate Wars?
-Grey Orcs of the East, yes. Not Mountain Orcs.
And you USanians just wait! Once we Brits ally with China and Russia, we'll demand you surrender to us and become a colony again, and you're gonna pay us all taxes due since 1776, plus interest! You were ours, and we're gonna own you again!
-What's Russia going to do? They have no realm power, and cling to the tattered remnants of the past, with even that power slowly slipping from them. China, on the other hand, is a Superpower, yes.
God, this thread is annoying (though truth be told, I'm not in the best mood, either).
-Here, then. Have some flowers:
-Here, then. Have some flowers:
Amoral means lacking any kind of morals whatsoever.
I was using the word in context of D&D alignment, as per the following meanings (Merriam-Webster):
being neither moral nor immoral; specifically: lying outside the sphere to which moral judgments apply
and
being outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals
Which to me seems quite proper use of it. One might call it "paramoral" if a word like that existed.
First; players PC are special. The so-called abundance of good drow is not that much a problem, as they are much PC. As long as we remember that NPC good drow are rare....
Yeah, the fact that four people at the table are "good" drow kind of confuses the issue that they're the only "good" drow within 1000 km. People tend to forget that not just your stats and abilities make you unique as a PC. Your outlook on life also makes you unique.
"Neutral" also don't mean "nice". It's not = to "good". And as most humans are neutral for me....
Definitely. There is no better adversary than a neutral human. Besides to me, neutral = selfish most of the time. It is the rare TN's out there who are advocates of balance
As for how... The rise of a religion that took them by storm, or some philosophy may have done it. Perhaps a great orcish hero, a figure, who was disgusted with the stupidity inherant at the 'let's kill everyone' mentality, but yet keep being real warriors? Or maybe Gruumsh Himself disalowed the guy or something.
Well, racial survival is one reason. After all King Obould Many Arrows was one sly orc. He would see that moving away from the survival of the strongest on its most simple level (kill or be killed, you only get what you can take) would save his people from eventual anihilation. For all that they outbreed their traditional rivals (elves and dwarves), they can't compete with both the only slightly slower reproducing but much better organized humans. One good war of attrition and the orc's days would be numbered.
No, Pc's are NOT special, PC's exist in a world with other characters. Charles just told you that's how his world works, and yet you insist on bringing your philosophy into it. I would argue exactly the opposite, that there's no such thing as an NPC, and woe be to the arrogant person who assumes that the PC's are special.
Well on this I would disagree in part. It depends on your definition of "PC's are special." If it is "they are the chosen ones fated to . . .", I would agree this is not necessary to have a PC. If you mean they are relatively unique in that a motivation (whatever it may be) has spured them to leave home and wonder the world, then yes they are special. Then there is always the rules mechanic that has as default the PCs with better stats over the usual monster/npc stats or elite array.
The fact the Realms has retired adventurers settled down in many if not most areas does make for an interesting game. It is a gentle (or sometimes not so gentle) reminder the world is a living, breathing thing and the PC's aren't the **** of the walk at first level just because. There are consequences to all you do.
Oh, and ironically, you've hit upon a crucial theme of being adventurers, sir.
Ready?
Monsters we are, lest monsters we become.
Yes, some few are needed to do horrible things to keep back the darkness and keep their people from going extinct. It was a drill sergeant who once said, "My job is to take 99 regular joes and turn them into killers and 1 killer and turn him into a human."
Very good points Markus and largely what I'm going for.
I'm also interested in raising Orc tech level too, I want my players to note that not all Orcs are stone age barbarians.
Nah, more like neanderthals. They are the uber primitive human. They do almost seem to pride themselves on their lack of tech in most places. Rubbing elbows with humans should give them the opportunity to see a "better way." Course, they haven't always had free will thanks to interfering gods (Gruumsh, I'm lookin' at you).
Well on this I would disagree in part. It depends on your definition of "PC's are special." If it is "they are the chosen ones fated to . . .", I would agree this is not necessary to have a PC. If you mean they are relatively unique in that a motivation (whatever it may be) has spured them to leave home and wonder the world, then yes they are special. Then there is always the rules mechanic that has as default the PCs with better stats over the usual monster/npc stats or elite array.
The fact the Realms has retired adventurers settled down in many if not most areas does make for an interesting game. It is a gentle (or sometimes not so gentle) reminder the world is a living, breathing thing and the PC's aren't the **** of the walk at first level just because. There are consequences to all you do.
-I believe his point was that a PC is not more important in the grand scheme of things than any other individual NPC because they are PCs. If they do something to earn their importance, fine, but, just because they are PCs doesn't magically make them extremely important people in Faerûn. They are extremely important people in the campaign, yes, but not in the setting as a whole- until they actually do something to 'earn' that position.
-What's Russia going to do? They have no realm power, and cling to the tattered remnants of the past, with even that power slowly slipping from them. China, on the other hand, is a Superpower, yes.
Don't underestimate the Russian Bear. Putin's forging a strong nation. Aside from Saudi Arabia, nobody's exporting anywhere near as much oil as them. The U.S. might be producing a lot of oil, but the oil wells are running dry (and they consume almost three times as much oil as China, the second highest oil consuming country), whereas the Russians still have a lot left. Corruption's going down, people are better off and Time voted Putin "Man of the Year" in 2007. He's obviously read the Prince a time or two too many, but he gets the job done. Their power's waxing, not waning.
China is a bigger superpower, yes, but don't underestimate the Russian Bear.
But that's another subject.
Don't underestimate the Russian Bear. Putin's forging a strong nation. Aside from Saudi Arabia, nobody's exporting anywhere near as much oil as them. The U.S. might be producing a lot of oil, but the oil wells are running dry (and they consume almost three times as much oil as China, the second highest oil consuming country), whereas the Russians still have a lot left. Corruption's going down, people are better off and Time voted Putin "Man of the Year" in 2007. He's obviously read the Prince a time or two too many, but he gets the job done. Their power's waxing, not waning.
-I don't necessarily agree. For all of the inroads Russia is making, it is still in tatters. Nuclear secrets and weapons are still exchanged like notes in a 4th grade classroom. The average income, per capita, is something like $10,000 per year. One U.S. dollar is equal to 24.024 rubles, at the time I did the conversion.
-As it stands now, Russia does not deserve the seat it has on the Security Council, and the only reason it is doing as good as it is doing now is because it inhereted the seat from the USSR.
-I don't necessarily agree. For all of the inroads Russia is making, it is still in tatters. Nuclear secrets and weapons are still exchanged like notes in a 4th grade classroom. The average income, per capita, is something like $10,000 per year. One U.S. dollar is equal to 24.024 rubles, at the time I did the conversion.
-As it stands now, Russia does not deserve the seat it has on the Security Council, and the only reason it is doing as good as it is doing now is because it inhereted the seat from the USSR.
Russia's still got the most weapons of mass destruction, they've got the world's largest oil reserves, they're a diplomatic giant (Kosovo, Middle East and especially iran, North Korea, they've got a massive army which is being modernised) and their economy has been going strong since Putin came to power. Their system of education's coming along well, free for everyone. i don't doubt for a second they deserve their place in the council.
As for the U.S. for example, the difference between rich and poor haven't been greater since the 1920's whereas Russia's middle class has been growing really well since Putin came to power. The U.S. government's borrowing more and more money, Russia's paying her debt off.
But shall we get back on topic? However much i enjoy discussing politics, i reckon we should get back on topic as this sidetrack was caused by a joke from my side (but we're still due a lot of tax) ;p
But shall we get back on topic? However much i enjoy discussing politics, i reckon we should get back on topic as this sidetrack was caused by a joke from my side (but we're still due a lot of tax) ;p
-Many Russian women look like Orcs. Back on topic...
Well on this I would disagree in part. It depends on your definition of "PC's are special." If it is "they are the chosen ones fated to . . .", I would agree this is not necessary to have a PC. If you mean they are relatively unique in that a motivation (whatever it may be) has spured them to leave home and wonder the world, then yes they are special. Then there is always the rules mechanic that has as default the PCs with better stats over the usual monster/npc stats or elite array.
The fact the Realms has retired adventurers settled down in many if not most areas does make for an interesting game. It is a gentle (or sometimes not so gentle) reminder the world is a living, breathing thing and the PC's aren't the **** of the walk at first level just because. There are consequences to all you do.
I think when most people argue that the PCs aren't "special", that's exactly what they mean--they aren't the most powerful people wherever they go, they can't do anything they want without consequence, and there are adventurers who have gone before them. For example, it only makes sense in most highly developed settings that there are epic wizards in the world who could kill the fresh new lvl 1 PCs quite easily.
EDIT: I see LK made the same point, just with different words.
I was using the word in context of D&D alignment, as per the following meanings (Merriam-Webster):
...
Which to me seems quite proper use of it. One might call it "paramoral" if a word like that existed.
Fair enough.
EDIT: I see LK made the same point, just with different words.
-I'd be weird if I used the same exact words!
I'll never allow it. Orcs are common adventurer fodder, they are the Monster the PCs need to kill in big numbers to escape from the low levels.
I am an old school gamer, Orcs are bad guys! No politically correctness is in the house on gaming days.
While I believe both of those methods are valid ways of playing the game, I have to say that I find them both lacking.
In my opinion a DM's number one job is to make a world that is believable, in fact that is the DM's primary job. A DM sets the setting and tone but together with the players it is a cooperative storytelling exercise. If you are just roll-playing (as opposed to storytelling or role-playing) sure this method is valid.
However, if you want a deeper game there needs to be motivations behind the actions of the so-called 'monsters'. Adventurer fodder is subjective, you could just as easily replace Orcs with Elves and get the same results. Just because a group of NPC's have an evil alignment does not mean that they should not be portrayed as actual living sentient creatures.
Why does an Orc Raid happen? I'd argue that most Orc Raids primarily take place due to the needs of Orcish Society. They breed quicker than Humans, yet Humans are the dominant race. They are militarily more powerful than the Orcs - primarily due to the fact that the Orcs are less socially advanced, have poor cooperation, poor organization and are at a genetic disadvantage when it comes to intelligence.
As a result of this Human's get the resource rich lands while Orcs get whatever lands their tribes can hold onto. They breed faster than Humans and eventually outgrow their lands, thus the priests of Gruumsh order an invasion into Human lands.
That might sound like it's being favorable to the Orc's and trying to paint them as 'less evil' - that is not the case. That is giving a premise for the motivations behind the actions. A typical Orcish Raid in my games is very reminiscent of hardcore raids during ancient times. In most cases it is even worse than what takes place in modern day Congo.
A PC who passes through a village that has been subjected to an Orc raid would see a great deal of horrific things. If there is anyone left alive (big if) they'd tell how people were carried off, how men, women and children were raped in the streets and how people were indiscriminately slaughtered. They'd go through the village and find stacks of bodies, literally stacked as tall as a man, most which are mutilated in some form, they'd find corpses of children, women and babies. The air would stink of burning and rotting flesh. Most buildings, if not all buildings, would be burned to their foundations. There would be lots of detail about all of this. (I can't really go into it though because these aren't the Mature Boards.) It is my goal to draw out certain emotions within the players - a sense of revulsion and hatred of Orcs.
The key for a good storyteller in my opinion is to make your audience feel real emotions - to sympathize with the victims and feel a burning hatred for their attackers. Unlike in a typical story, however, the players play a role in what happens. They get to decide the outcome and be either heroes or villains.
In my opinion you have to be fair to both sides. If a story is to be believable Orcs have to be more than just adventurer fodder - they have to be living creatures, with families and children. When you approach the Orcish Stronghold, you may initially run into the adult males, but as you press deeper you'll find the females, the children and the babies. It is at that point the players are given the most power. Do they return the favor, do they do unto the Orcs as was done to their people - Orcs who are by all standards innocent of the crimes of their adult male counter parts?
Sure, you could romanticize things - after all when you attack the Orcs they are all battle hardened adult males, right? Orc's don't have a community that includes women and children, right? After all - if they did how could you be the 'hero' if you knowingly doomed an innocent baby to death through your actions by killing her sole provider?
D&D is based largely around combat, but it encourages "political correctness" in that combat - a romanticized version of warfare. An adventurer pillages tombs, invades homes, and slaughters sometimes innocent sentient creatures in search of riches. To gloss over the details and pretend that the deeper elements behind the actions taken don't matter, in my opinion, overlooks the real benefit of a role-playing game.
After all, if a player wants to engage in roll-playing, to commit acts of genocide without a second thought for the sole purpose of gaining XP, loot and kewl magical items then they might enjoy a MMORPG more than a storytelling game. Those games provide all of that, but lack the one thing storytelling games provide - a sense of depth and realness to the world in which you play, and the ability to change it for either good or ill.
Fair enough.
Not as fair as you are, you teaser, you. But alas! It would never work out between us, so even if it breaks your heart, let us only be casual acquaintances over the internet!
At least until I find a way to get rid of Karsus... oh, I'm working on it, I'm working on it...
At least until I find a way to get rid of Karsus... oh, I'm working on it, I'm working on it...
:: Fails Listen Check ::
-What? You want to get fit with Karsus? Why, do I have something for you! Buns of Glassteel, and Washboard Ab(ier)s, exercise videos, hosted by yours truly.
-I'll send you a copy, Gnome. Don't want to get lazy and fat, like those Halflings. ;)
Basically, you aren't doing your gamers any favors by portraying the Orcs as utterly soulless inhuman monsters from chilhood before they are transformed into monstrous, raping, and mass murderering machines of death upon the moment that they reach puberty....despite how that often seems.
In my case, you can certainly have Orcs be the majority of the evil race and drawn to brutality or cruelty as a matter of course. However, if you want to give infant Orcs and Females then you should pretty much treat the creatures like they are capable of slightly higher awarness than pure killing instinct.
Are Orc Females and Orc Males capable of humane interaction? Are they are capable of loving their children? In that case, the mere existence of women and children is accompanied by even Orc males capable of something beyond pure murdering glee.
In my case, I portray Orcs as aggressive and murderous but not SO far removed from mankind that they are unrecognizable. To me, they can still be the EVIL race without becoming Daleks. Instead, I tend to think more of Cardassians from TNG and Klingons from TOS. They're a race that loves fascism, war, and murder when they're civilized.
They're a race that loves Barbarian savagery when they're uncivilized.
Yet, they still love their children and are capable of peaceful interaction when it suits their purpsoes. I think it makes them MORE evil in a way.
Very good points Markus and largely what I'm going for.
I'm also interested in raising Orc tech level too, I want my players to note that not all Orcs are stone age barbarians.
Took someone else's post for me to notice this.
There are several tribes of Orcs in the Stonelands that do a lot of mining, and they smith their own weapons and armor. Excerpts from pg. 14 of the Stonelands Elminster's Ecologies booklet:
Unlike Goblins, Orcs are capable of accomplishing more than just basic survival. Orcs craft their own weapons, cultivate crops, and have developed a fairly complex society. They are suprisingly intelligent, and are capable of original design and creation.
and...
Orc social structure actually mimics human culture fairly closely. Orcs marry, hold worship services for their gods, have codified laws, and even teach their young in a crude educational system. They desire to prove, to others and to themselves, that they are a sophisticated race.
and lastly...
Orcs are excellent Miners and control a number of mines inthe Marches and the Stonelands. They use this ore themselves to craft weapons, armor, and tools.
Lots of good info on Orcs in that supplement, probably more then any other one place, and the one on the Thar is helpful as well. The Orcs there were once part of the Ogre Kingdom... after their own Orcish Empire of Vastaar collapsed to the south.
Yup... Orcs have always been that way. The designers aren't changing a thing - you guys just always had it wrong. :P
Enough sources for you? Or should I list every instance of good and neutral Orc behaviour since the Days of Thunder? ;)
And BTW, the copyright on that is 1994, way before WoW came around, so you can't blame its influence. If anything, it appears the Blizzard guys were the only ones who might have read the Stonelands supplement. :D
In my case, I portray Orcs as aggressive and murderous but not SO far removed from mankind that they are unrecognizable.
That is based on the assumption that humanity, when reduced to their basest and most savage form, would act any differently. :P
I would encourage you to Google some of the modern events that have taken place in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Certainly, the people perpetrating the actions (such as mass **** and slaughter) could be taken for 'orcs'. Look to the fighting tactics of almost any military dating back to the dawn of war. In modern times, there are rules of engagement, but there was a time before such rules were in place where anything went. Look to the fighting tactics of Genghis Khan and you might get some insight to how an Orc thinks strategically about war and dealing with his enemies. Even Julius Caesar said, "My men fight just as well when they stink of perfume." In other words, he let them roam free and **** whomever they conquered. Such things were common before rules of engagement came into play, but even today in our modern world such actions still happen.
Back to the Orcs, though, they really are no different from humans. What may look like to an observer a senseless act of chaos and vile savagery is actually an effective tactic when trying to terrorize a region. However, the example I used certainly doesn't characterize every Orc raid. In my example I was thinking more along the lines of this:
Humans have expanded further and further into what traditionally might have been Orcish lands. The Orcs, who breed quickly, are separated into a number of different tribes. They are forced to compete for an ever-dwindling number of resources. One tribe, the tribe in my example, was a tribe who was mostly defeated by another stronger tribe and had trouble competing for resources in the region. The only way they could continue to sustain themselves at their current rate was to send raiders into human lands.
Their overall goal was to raid relatively defenseless villages and slaughter anyone who posed a threat. They used overwhelming force to demoralize their enemy, and then retreated back into Orcish lands.
During their raids, they took suitable slaves, looted everything that could be traded and burn the rest so that it wasn't useful to their enemies.
They did all of this because they were too weak to capture and hold a settlement against humans who would unite to slaughter them. They hoped to take the slaves and pillaged loot from their raids back to their lands, where they could then trade it with other Orc Tribes in exchange for resources or to use as bribes against attack. It would have been a minor thing until they could have grown strong enough to defend themselves against the other tribes who wanted to conquer them.
Their retreating back into their homeland was a clever tactic because they knew it posed a dilemma for the local lords. If a human military was organized and sent into Orcish lands it would have unified the Orcish Tribes to expel the humans. Such a conflict would have been bloody, but that unity would take the pressure off them temporarily and it would also weaken the other tribes. For the Orcs it was a win-win situation. If the humans did not send their military in to battle the tribes then they could at least pay off the opposing tribes by raiding human villages.
Of course, that is where the PCs as elite mercenaries / adventurers step in. While an army may be difficult to send into Orcish lands, a highly trained group of powerful individuals could (hopefully) slip in and end the threat.
That is based on the assumption that humanity, when reduced to their basest and most savage form, would act any differently.
Yes, that would be the idea.
But I do think that some biological and mental differences are necessary or, otherwise, there's no real point in not using humans. Conan's Hyborea works just as well if you're going to describe Orcs as Picts.
But I do think that some biological and mental differences are necessary or, otherwise, there's no real point in not using humans. Conan's Hyborea works just as well if you're going to describe Orcs as Picts.
Of course there are biological and mental differences. The biological is obvious, but the mental differences is manifested in their relationships to each other, their society and the world at large. After all, there has to be a good reason why most orcs are more barbaric than humanity despite the fact that they (in most settings) have been around for thousands upon thousands of years longer. :P
I'd imagine most Orc's do not form the same type of social bonds as humans, in effect they have a form of mental/social retardation - as represented by their racial modifiers that lower their intelligence, wisdom and charisma.
Just imagine a 300-pound orc smiling slyly at you like a drow would.
I don't see orcs changing much unless Grumsh has changed, or has been displaced by a less aggressive/evil deity. Alternatively, orc religion might have lost a lot of importance in orc society to the point most orcs do not bother following Grumsh's teachings.
If Grumsh is still Grumsh, and if religion is still as important to orcs as it was in 3.5, then Oblud's kingdom must be something akin to a drow-ruled kingdom. A place where civility and law is just a thin facade and murder and sadistic acts of violence happen daily, just not in plain sight. Except orcs, being far less subtle than drow, probably don't even bother with appearances. I don't see any human or dwarf kingdom allying with suck a people for long, since they wouldn't respect any treaty unless they are forced by a far stronger nation, and even then they would never respect the spirit of the treaty.
Returning to the original matter.
I don't see orcs changing much unless Grumsh has changed, or has been displaced by a less aggressive/evil deity. Alternatively, orc religion might have lost a lot of importance in orc society to the point most orcs do not bother following Grumsh's teachings.
That why I suggested removing Grummsh. Without him and his 'family' gone then I don't think Orcs will devolp much deyond what they are now. The influance Grummsh and the other Gods holds keep Orcs (and the same with the other races/Gods) locked into a cycle of the same behavior.
Once one-eye is removed then another God, Demi-God etc can step in and hopefully move the Orcish race along from the stupid primative ways they are locked into.
I'm almost tempted to make him NE though because I don't think that Chaotic Evil fits a god that used to have his base on Acheron.
Took someone else's post for me to notice this.
There are several tribes of Orcs in the Stonelands that do a lot of mining, and they smith their own weapons and armor. Excerpts from pg. 14 of the Stonelands Elminster's Ecologies booklet:
Lots of good info on Orcs in that supplement, probably more then any other one place, and the one on the Thar is helpful as well. The Orcs there were once part of the Ogre Kingdom... after their own Orcish Empire of Vastaar collapsed to the south.
Yup... Orcs have always been that way. The designers aren't changing a thing - you guys just always had it wrong. :P
Enough sources for you? Or should I list every instance of good and neutral Orc behaviour since the Days of Thunder? ;)
And BTW, the copyright on that is 1994, way before WoW came around, so you can't blame its influence. If anything, it appears the Blizzard guys were the only ones who might have read the Stonelands supplement. :D
i don't have a problem with orcs making a kingdom - it's the neutral aspect of it.
i don't have a problem with orcs making a kingdom - it's the neutral aspect of it.
Again, neutral don't means nice. At all.
Not as fair as you are, you teaser, you. But alas! It would never work out between us, so even if it breaks your heart, let us only be casual acquaintances over the internet!
Yes indeed.:P
At least until I find a way to get rid of Karsus... oh, I'm working on it, I'm working on it...
But...he's a god.
Why does an Orc Raid happen? I'd argue that most Orc Raids primarily take place due to the needs of Orcish Society. They breed quicker than Humans, yet Humans are the dominant race. They are militarily more powerful than the Orcs - primarily due to the fact that the Orcs are less socially advanced, have poor cooperation, poor organization and are at a genetic disadvantage when it comes to intelligence.
As a result of this Human's get the resource rich lands while Orcs get whatever lands their tribes can hold onto. They breed faster than Humans and eventually outgrow their lands, thus the priests of Gruumsh order an invasion into Human lands.
How does the raping fit into this, though, if orcs are only raiding because they've run out of resources?
By the way, I'm only asking this based on your argument.
The Orcish justice system will deal with all of them in due time.
How does the raping fit into this, though, if orcs are only raiding because they've run out of resources?
What is important to remember here, is that they are not employing **** as a means of sexual gratification. They are employing it in the same way human armies employed it during ancient times; as a tactic to break the spirit of their enemies through domination and force them into total submission. It is a tactic that I would have humans use if they were at war with one another as well depending on the culture involved. It even happens in our modern warfare, though because it is frowned upon in modern times it is punished. This wasn't so in the past and it isn't so among the savage tribal Orcs.
What is important to remember is that we're talking about a savage, brutal, sadistic and yes most importantly – evil - society and culture. Even against others of their own tribe the Orcs employ **** as a tool of domination. While most would consider **** to be used primarily against females, that is not necessarily the case. Males can **** other males instead of killing them, often in front of the tribe, as a show of total domination over their victim. To an evil and arrogant Orc it is far better to leave their victim alive, to live in shame and in humiliation, knowing that they have been defeated and dominated by another who is stronger and more worthy of Gruumsh's blessings.
However, such things only take place in the most violent, most evil and most sadistic of Orcish Tribes - tribes that are largely dominated by the influence of Bahgtru and Gruumsh priests. In other tribes, such as those who also pay homage and respect to Ilneval and Luthic, there is much more respect for the dignity of other orcs. The two additional deities may still be subservient to Gruumsh - Luthic in particular - but they have the best intentions for the tribe at heart rather than the individual.
Additionally, that is speaking in generalities. Each tribe is different just as each human culture and tribe is different. They fight over those differences just as we fight over our own.
Still in D&D terms, the Orcs are evil because they grow up in an evil culture and society dominated by evil deities. It takes more than simple raiding of villages to make someone evil, otherwise every time an Adventurer waltzes into a dungeon, and slaughters the perhaps innocent humanoids within in search of riches and glory he would be committing an evil act.
But...he's a god.
-Indeed.
**** rarely has anything to do with sexual gratification, at least as far as I'm aware. It's all about control and dominance, not sex.
-Many racists I am studying in one class, have sexual fetishes where dominance and control gives them sexual pleasure. So, there you go.
True enough, but I see that as a secondary effect to be honest. Kinda like those who derail trains or set fire to things getting sexual pleasure from the act. It just stops being an act of sexuality at some point in my book.
-It depends. Some people, it happens because of their own behavior leads them down that path. Other people, they are 'miswired', and happen to be like that (equating dominance with sexual pleasure).
[Edited for good taste]
Moral of the story: Kids, don't drink and post on public message boards.
-It depends. Some people, it happens because of their own behavior leads them down that path. Other people, they are 'miswired', and happen to be like that (equating dominance with sexual pleasure).
One example of miswiring that's a little more acceptable to talk about is common in cats. Their pleasure center and their 'hunt and kill' instincts are wired together, so that they get pleasure from hunting and killing (and quite often continue hunting and killing when not hungry, and then have this dead mouse that they have no idea what to do with, and end up leaving as 'presents' for their owner...).
Some will be even more 'miswired' and go from purring, to biting, and back to purring at someone who is petting them, all in an instant.
But with people, I think it's less a case of physiological brain stuff and more a case of people who need to feel 'powerful' before they can function. Some get drunk to lose their inhibitions, others target children, and still others beat the crap out of their spouses and then 'make up.'
What is important to remember here, is that they are not employing **** as a means of sexual gratification. They are employing it in the same way human armies employed it during ancient times; as a tactic to break the spirit of their enemies through domination and force them into total submission. It is a tactic that I would have humans use if they were at war with one another as well depending on the culture involved.
I wouldn't, at least if said humans were supposed to be good guys. **** isn't considered morally neutral in the Forgotten Realms, regardless what happened in the real world Middle Ages (or more recent "ages", for that matter). Heck, I don't think it's ever "morally neutral" no matter what people's beliefs about it are. It's sick, it's disgusting, it's evil.
I am fully aware that you weren't trying to portray orcs as good or even non-evil. But your argument also seemed to be that orcs wouldn't raid if they didn't need to, and IMO saying that orcs also **** everyone in sight undermines that more sympathetic take on them (you don't need to **** people to gain resources you need, even if you do decide stealing is OK).
Human or whatever.
Otherwise, you risk revolting players.
Overall, I tend to think if you want to "civilize" Orcs in players minds, then one probably should do away with the myth that they **** everything they can lay their hands on, or at least such acts are no more common than in any rampaging army when they suceed in a raid.
Human or whatever.
Otherwise, you risk revolting players.
Agreed, although were it up to me I would just ditch the raping altogether (if a DM wants to put rapists in the game, that's fine, they'd just better not tell me that said rapists are anything other than villains--they aren't "decent people").
Me: Okay guys, any question.
Michael: Yeah, it's the **** and pillage aspect.
Me: What about it?
Michael: Well, none of us wants to play a rapist, we've all got our excuses why we don't, but it's going on in the background? Along with the slavery, causal murder, and so on?
Me: Pretty much yeah.
Michael: So how's that work?
Me: People in the Hyborean Age are truly
horrible examples of humanity.Michael: Everyone.
Me: The word anti-hero describes your characters at its kindest. More precisely, it's "killing so many of the people of this time will someday make a decent world."
Michael: And that's why we ditched the Alignment system?
Me: Everyone registering as evil would defeat the purpose.
Probably not the type of game I'd enjoy, but to each, their own.
It's based in the style of HBO's Rome crossed with H.P. Lovecraft.
But I'm sure the unrelenting grimness and darkness of the setting will eventually get them back to Faerun.
Which is why I sent them there.
But no, I'm not running F.A.T.A.L. All sex is consensual for our heroes and the bad guys are always a few heads shorter by the ends of the game even if money and vice is their motivation.
I doubt that VERY much... its just so much easier to 'see' then it is the other way. Also, I'm sure their have been cases where the human female was not entirely unwilling, but didn't want others (family, neighbors) to think 'less' of her, so she told the story of ****. I'm basing this on RW history, BTW, when white women used to every once in a while have a baby 'of color', and then claim it was ****. How many male slaves were put to death wrongly, because some promiscuous girl wanted to have a little fun? And I just bet, in most cases, she pointed out the WRONG guy... after all, she probably wanted seconds.. ;)
Same goes the other way around - Orc females may not be attractive (they are kind of cute in WoW, and RAS seems to think Halforcs are beautiful), but as others have pointed out above, **** isn't about sexual attraction, its about control and degradation. If a group of Mountaineers came across a few Orcs by a river, and they killed the couple of males, you don't think they'd have their 'fun' with the females before killing them? (IF they bothered to kill them) More RW analogies - Sailors on Slave ships considered the slaves animals, and yet, they still would 'use' them for their 'fun'. You don't have to like the way someone looks to abuse them that way, and it goes both ways. Orcs don't consider human females that hideous, but they think Elf and Dwarf females are incredibly repulsive! (They may be right in the case of the Dwarves)
Just because a people (and YES, Orcs ARE people) are savage doesn't mean you have the right to slaughter or enslave them. Plenty of human tribes are cannibalistic, or are headhunters, and yet we can't just 'go on safari' and shoot a few.
Everyone deserves a chance, and the Orcs do too. If they screw it up, THEN kill them, but at least be willing to let them live in peace, if thats what they want to do.
Meet the Ondonti - A peaceful farmer who only wants to plow your field. :D
So, yeah, to come to a point, orcs aren't people, and are simply beasties to grind xp off of. :P :D
It's just you have to clean off the grime and war paint first.
Show
God knows that I've done more than a few Orc looking girl since I joined
I don't think any amount of bathing is going to help with the whole piggy tusk thing... Elves at least have aesthetic appeal on their side.
I judge by Charisma scores. Elves are naturally paper-thin anorexic types that look like children.
They CAN be beautiful.
But Orcs are muscular, full figured, and dangerously appealing with High Charisma.
On the issue of the Orcs:
It is important to remember the type of deity the Orc's follow. None of their deities are particularly kind, friendly or gentle. Also, let's not forget that they are a highly religious race - as are most races - and this is primarily because that their god is real. When I say real I mean that literally as - "I will appear to you in your dream and if you fail me I will send my priests to kill you" - real. They know that in death Gruumsh is coming for them and they know that if they screw up there will be consequences in the afterlife. It isn't faith to them - it is material fact. Think about that for a moment. Seriously, just try to wrap your mind around that fact.
Then realize that Gruumsh is a deity who believes in three primary things: war, survival and strength. If you are weak you do not survive, and the strong always go to war. Life is a never-ending battle.
He is a deity who literally tells his followers to seek unceasing war against their enemies, and to kill or enslave all that oppose them. He tells them to acquire territory, destroy elves, their homes, and their lands. However, they should not stop with the elves, but should also crush the dwarves and take their lands. He commands that they be strong, and be prepared to show their strength at a moments notice. He warns that showing weakness is the key to an early death, and then tells them that any in the tribe who are too weak to fight should be killed. His priests then tell them that the greatest gift Gruumsh has given them is the ability to survive in places where the weaker races would die. Gruumsh commands the Orcs to build their strength in the lands where others struggle to survive and then use that strength to overrun their enemies.
That is a divine mandate - straight from the lips of a god and his priests. Priests, by the way, who possess the ability to call upon his divine power.
Now, try to imagine what such a society might look like from the inside. What might the average Orc be like, what might he feel day-to-day? What is it like to be a female among the Orcs? As you construct this society for the Orcs look to the real world for examples.
During the Second World War some American GI's used **** against Japanese women. It was seen as a way to sharpen the aggressiveness of soldiers, to facilitate male bonding among warriors, and most importantly it reflected their "burning need to establish total dominance" over their conquered enemies. Over 10,000 Japanese women were raped in the first 10 days of the occupation of Japan. Furthermore, as American GI's were constantly confronted by Japanese kamikaze assaults on their lines, they began to believe that there was only one solution to deal with the Japanese soldiers: mass destruction. They began to believe that reasoning with them was hopeless. A war correspondent named Robert Sherrod summarized the general opinion among the GIs by saying: "killing them was easier than teaching them".
Also, look to the Yugoslavian Civil War where **** was systematic and thorough - where military leaders encouraged their soldiers to **** civilians. They employed it as a method of ethnic cleansing - an actual form of genocide. They actually created **** camps to literally herd captured women into, and then proceeded to **** them on a daily basis until pregnancy occurred.
When I imagine Orc society I imagine it largely being similar to both of the above real world examples. Orcs employ **** against their enemies to establish dominance over them, to sharpen their aggressiveness and to facilitate bonding among their warriors. In tribal warfare, male orcs capture female Orcs, bring them back to their tribe and **** them in a form of ethnic cleansing against the other tribe.
Strength is paramount to the Orcs, and if they were strong enough to capture their women (which meant that they likely killed most if not all of their men) then their weakness had to be bred out of the race. Any male child that was fathered by the Orcs of the opposing tribe would be killed. Females would be kept for breeding purposes, and once they could no longer have more children they too are killed.
On the off chance that a male is allowed to survive it is only as a slave, and he would be castrated to prevent his breeding with the women. If he failed to survive the castration then it was only a display of his weakness.
The sympathetic view of Orcs:
My goal is not to paint the Orcs in a sympathetic light. It is to try and paint them as they truly are according to how I believe such a society might be like based on the lore given. Not all tribes would be like the above and certainly some would be more civilized. However, it is important to remember that so long as they embrace an evil deity who commands them to do evil things they will continue to act in the manor described.
Nevertheless, when you invade an Orcish Settlement you are faced with more than just the male warriors. You are faced with their children and their women who, while they may also be evil to one degree or another, are not guilty of the crimes that the male warriors committed.
What is important, I believe, is that both sides are shown in equal measure. In order for someone to be good in the truest sense they must consider these things. A good person does not slaughter "monsters" without thinking of the consequences of their actions. They value life – that is the central tenet of being good and the primary difference between good and evil. Good values life while evil cares nothing for it.
Being good in a world that is largely uncaring is difficult. It is more than throwing a few gold coins to a couple of peasants. Likewise, evil is more than selfishness and greed. For this reason there are very few truly good people in the world as portrayed in D&D because the role of good is romanticized. On the other hand, the role of evil is also downplayed greatly. As a result both true good and evil are rarely seen.
The role of the good guys:
When faced with the situation that has been outlined involving the Orcs it poses a problem for the good guys such as a Paladin. In most cases the Paladin would refuse to attack the Orcish Settlement, no matter their crimes, because innocents might be harmed during the battle. The goal of the Paladin is to eradicate evil not to perpetuate it. As a result, the Paladin would prefer to face the Orcish Warriors on the open field of battle away from innocent civilians.
There is a reason that Paladins are the epitome of good and are true and noble heroes. They often die early and live their lives in constant struggle trying to maintain their virtues. They are always in danger of falling due to their own imperfect nature.
There is a reason many Ilmater Paladins commit acts such as self-flagellation. They must constantly remind themselves of the suffering of others, and their own ability to inflict suffering - their own impurity. Each action they take must be done in such away as to minimize harm to others as best that is possible, and when they find someone who is suffering it is their duty to help end that suffering or take it upon themselves to suffer for them.
Ilmater commands them to help all who hurt, no matter who they are. He teaches that the truly holy take on the suffering of others, and the faithful believe that if you suffer in Ilmater's name he is there to support you. The faithful are commanded to stick to a cause if it is right, whatever the pain or peril, and that there is no shame in a meaningful death. They are to stand up to all tyrants and allow no injustice to go unchallenged. They believe that the spiritual nature of life is more important than the material body.
Thus in our scenario the Paladin would face the Orcish Warriors on the open battlefield. He will sacrifice his life in battle if necessary, knowing that he now faces even greater risk than had he taken the easy way out.
After he is victorious he will not forget or overlook the women and children left behind by the male warriors. He will not allow himself to be overtaken by hatred of their actions; in fact, a Paladin struggles against such temptations. He strives to forgive his enemy of their transgressions because he knows that hatred leads to thoughts of vengeance, and vengeance is a dangerous road that eats at his soul until he has fallen.
He rides to the Orcish Settlement and offers the women and children safe haven within human lands. He liberates all who wish to follow him, and they trust him, because they know a Paladin cannot break his word. He brings all he can back to the Ilmater Priests who take on the suffering endured by the women and children under the hands of their oppressive deity.
The Ilmater Paladin then stands against his own race and society, to protect the rights of the Orcs to live in their lands provided they obey the law. He combats the prejudice that they face and keeps his word to protect them. He mourns for all that he could not save. He takes the suffering he has inflicted upon the child who will never know his father into himself, and he strives to live the rest of his days doing the best he can for that child.
This is the difference between good and evil. Throughout all of this the Paladin struggles with his own emotions and feelings. Hatred for the Orcs for what they have done, and the need to let go of that hatred in order to do the right thing. Good is the most difficult road to travel, whereas evil is always the easiest – therefore it is always the most tempting.
This is the essence of my point, though I admit it was unclear. In order for there to be good heroes, there must be evil villains, and the heroes must have their values constantly challenged. Doing the right thing is never easy. It is easy to look at the actions of the Orcs who **** and pillage, and then proceed to their settlement and slaughter every man, woman and child under the pretense that they are evil. However, is that really the good thing to do?
It is my feeling that most DM's like to leave out the details because they want their players to be heroes without actually being heroes. They slaughter the Orcs, they save the village, the people cheer them on, and the story ends. For the true hero that is only the first chapter. The first may be a hero in the eyes of the villagers, but when put next to the true hero he is a pale imitation.
The role of the DM:
Now I want to be clear. I am not saying one method is better than another. A good DM will never put something like **** into a game if his or her players are uncomfortable with it. Most likely it will take place in the background or not happen at all. That is valid. It is important to remember that the point of the game is to have fun.
If you have fun just slaughtering the Orcs that is a valid way of playing. However, in my opinion it undermines the single strength of a role-playing game. Anyone can slaughter an Orc and have some fun with their friends. However, the truth of the matter is, you can do the same thing in a MMORPG.
The difference between a MMORPG and a role-playing game is your ability to immerse yourself into a character that lives and exists in a different world. You have the ability to leave behind your daily life and become someone or something that you could never hope to be in reality. You can be the Paladin of Ilmater, or just as easily, you could become the pillaging Orc. The approach is different but the goal is still to provide enjoyment.
Have you ever read a book so good that you are sucked into it? I am talking about a book so good that you lose track of time and it is almost painful to put down? I am talking about a book that felt so real to you that you could swear that it almost happened. In your minds eye you can see it taking place. We are talking about a book so good that you actually forget that you are reading all together.
To me that is the essence of role-playing. Well let me rephrase that. That is the essence of GOOD role-playing. Whereas you can read a book and passively watch things unfold; when you are role-playing you are actually participating in the story.
Look at the writer. Anyone who can put words to paper can write a story. The difference between the writer and an author is that the author uses his story to provide his reader with an experience. Like the author, a good DM uses his world to provide his players with an experience.
As a DM it is my goal for you to experience my world. When an NPC I have created is in trouble I want you to feel the need to help him. When your character is in trouble I want you to feel your characters fear. I want you to forget that you are rolling dice and simply, for a short amount of time, become someone else entirely.
In order to accomplish that a world must be both believable and consistent. I must know what makes you tick and then I must understand your character. You cannot achieve this through a prefabricated adventure it is something that must be tailored to the players involved.
I have to ask myself: If I introduce the Orc Rapist what will the players response be – how will it make them feel emotionally? How can I use this scene to the maximum benefit in order to make them feel sympathetic to the victims? Perhaps they will run into a little girl, who has lost her family – maybe she has escaped the Orcs and has been brutalized in horrific ways. What does this girl look like? What is her mental state? What does **** do to a victim? What does her surroundings look like? Is she crying or is she obviously numb on the inside from the experience? What is she wearing and how can I use what she is wearing to convey that she has been brutalized? Then I have to ask what does the girl tell them; does she withhold information because she has blocked it out, and if so how can I get this information across to the players without breaking the suspension of disbelief?
Next, I have to really think about how this will effect the players emotionally and psychologically. Can my players handle a scene like this? They are not passively watching as in a movie or book. They are participating. They are experiencing it – they are involved. How does this effect them?
Finally, I have to ask myself how do I want their characters to react? One is a Paladin of Ilmater. Do I want to test him? Do I want the girl to say or do something to trigger a desired reaction? How do I anticipate the Paladin to react, and then how do I anticipate the others to react to him? How can I craft this scene to get this desired response? If I feel that my original plan of crafting the scene is going to fail, I have to start over from scratch.
Just as an artist attempts to use each brushstroke to convey something in a painting, it is also my desire to craft a world and a scene that conveys something to those who participate in my game. In a scene that I know will test them emotionally, I have to find a way to channel that emotion into their characters and into the world.
However, at the same time I have to be cautious and respectful. I have to remember that if I am successful my players are experiencing something that, although not really happening, could feel real to them. In their minds eye they are seeing the girl, they are seeing her brutalization. I do not want my players to lose the separation between what happens in the game and what happens in the real world. At all times, a player should be able to pull himself away from his or her character and feel that there is a strong separation between the two.
The danger is always there that a player may internalize something like that, or worse it may bring up memories of an event that happened to them in reality. Therefore, it is important that everyone who participates in the game is aware that it may contain elements that could trigger unwanted memories and emotions. If such does happen, all players must be respectful. That is the rule. The game is a safe place in which to find enjoyment and do things that they could not otherwise do, but once it is no longer enjoyable for someone the game ends. Period.
I fully realize that my method of DMing is vastly different than the majority of those who post here. There is nothing inferior with doing it differently, but I do feel that it goes against the strongest aspect of the game.
When you leave my game I want you to remember it and think about what happened. I want you to remember your battle against the Orcs. I want you to remember what it was like to look across the battlefield and see that tribe who had committed horrific acts charging toward you. I want you to remember the pangs of fear in the pit of your stomach as you heard the war drums and the chanting. I want you to remember what it was like to be separated from your comrades in battle and to stand toe to toe with the Orc Chieftain, to look into his one eye, and match him blow for blow with your blade.
I want you to remember what it was like after the battle, as you and your comrades quietly rode into that Orcish Settlement that was like a ghost town. How it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, and yet you could see the fearful inhuman eyes gazing at you from inside their shanty homes.
I want you to remember what it was like trying to convince the Orcish Females that you meant their children no harm, and trying to describe to them what freedom meant. I want you to remember what it was like when you marched the Orc Survivors into Cormyr for the first time – the looks on the faces of the people. The struggles you had with the nobility, and even the prejudice you faced within your own Church.
I want you to remember all of those things, but most importantly I want you to remember what it was like to be a Paladin of Ilmater and what it was like to be a true hero.
If I am successful in that then I feel that I have accomplished my goal – I have crafted a story that you have experienced and enjoyed and will remember always. You will know what it is like to see true evil, to look it in the eye, and to feel its touch and grip within your own heart. You will know what it is like to reject the evil and become a true hero, worthy of praise throughout the Realms for generations to come.
That in essence is the point I was trying to make. I know this is long but I hope it is clear.
Most importantly, I hope people actually took the time to read it. ;)
That is a divine mandate - straight from the lips of a god and his priests. Priests, by the way, who possess the ability to call upon his divine power.
I guess its a large way you choose to interpret Gruumsh in my view. Is he a Chaotic Evil Deity like he is in 3E where people claim he wants a bunch of primitive tribes waging genocide or is he the Lawful Evil Deity from 2E whom wants his Orcs to ENSLAVE the other races (Elves exempted since they're to be eradicated).
The Orcs of 2E are a race that's mostly primitive and tribal but also capable of cunning strategy, traps, and forming alliances. People keep forgetting that Orcs were the Great Uniters of 2E. Orcs travelled in bands of Ogres, Gnolls, Goblins, Trolls, Bugbears, and with Humans aplenty as they THE race of the nastiness but had a massive number of bad guy PCs to work with them.
Now, try to imagine what such a society might look like from the inside. What might the average Orc be like, what might he feel day-to-day? What is it like to be a female among the Orcs? As you construct this society for the Orcs look to the real world for examples.
Actually, not that different from the human lands. They have divine mandates on the exact same page and follow them with roughly the same frequency. Gruumsh is a God that favors Strength, War, and the like but he's also a God of Male Fertility and plenty of other things.
Gruumsh is oddly most similiar to Odin amongst human gods, not the least because of the One-Eye Factor.
When I imagine Orc society I imagine it largely being similar to both of the above real world examples.
With all due respect, Meldread. I can certainly make all Orcs raised in a culture of Nazis but I really don't think that I want to go there. I'd prefer to keep my games to be entertaining and the blind stunning racism as the CHIEF motivation of Orcs in *ALL* things really seems to be something that I wouldn't find very satisfying in the long run.
Orcs need to have more than one story. Daleks can be used many ways but never as friends.
My goal is not to paint the Orcs in a sympathetic light. It is to try and paint them as they truly are according to how I believe such a society might be like based on the lore given.
You've made that abundantly clear, however, you're actually making a common mistake. What you're describing is a forced and tremendous indoctrinication that more or less requires Orc children to be reminded every day how utterly revolting and horrible the other races are.
It's clear from the depictions in the MM and other sources that the majority of orcs give religion only lip service because they're more concerned about mating, riches, and eating like most people in the world.
Likewise, effectively, Orcs seem to get along with human beings whenever they're not raiding. You're also projecting the "Orcs are the ENEMY" thing that too many players do. The Orcs are described as no worse than Bugbears, Gnolls, and Goblins.
Are THEY *JUST* as bad?
You're way way way over the top.
You are faced with their children and their women who, while they may also be evil to one degree or another, are not guilty of the crimes that the male warriors committed.
And what happens next generation with all those warriors wiped out? The Orcs grow up exactly the same despite the influences gone?
Generally, I think part of the major problem is you're forwarding Fanon over canon. It's actually very Harnworld of you to forward that Orcs are raping, pillaging, and soulless creatures that are subhuman in all respects. However, the canon D&D version's description of Orc subculture is a bit different.
Basically, given the Code of Conduct, **** isn't really even mentioned nor is it placed in such an exalted important position as you ascribe to it.
Finally, if you hadn't missed the purpose of thsi thread, this is about the redemption of the Orc race and how to in-game describe how the race as a whole becomes absolutely no different from any other race with it's share of Good vs. Evil.
No offense, but the above description is wonderful and insightful on the evils of racism but pretty worthless in establishing how Orcs become a suitable PC race.
So, how about that?
If I am successful in that then I feel that I have accomplished my goal – I have crafted a story that you have experienced and enjoyed and will remember always. You will know what it is like to see true evil, to look it in the eye, and to feel its touch and grip within your own heart. You will know what it is like to reject the evil and become a true hero, worthy of praise throughout the Realms for generations to come.
And what part does it become about how Orcs are just another Tribal People as this thread is about?
Cause, that's what's in my game.
Gah. I've been trying to write a reply to this thread all day but every time I started I got distracted. I'm going to try again. Hopefully it doesn't come out as choppy and difficult to follow as my last three attempts. Bare with me. :P
On the issue of the Orcs:
It is important to remember the type of deity the Orc's follow. None of their deities are particularly kind, friendly or gentle. Also, let's not forget that they are a highly religious race - as are most races - and this is primarily because that their god is real. When I say real I mean that literally as - "I will appear to you in your dream and if you fail me I will send my priests to kill you" - real. They know that in death Gruumsh is coming for them and they know that if they screw up there will be consequences in the afterlife. It isn't faith to them - it is material fact. Think about that for a moment. Seriously, just try to wrap your mind around that fact.
Then realize that Gruumsh is a deity who believes in three primary things: war, survival and strength. If you are weak you do not survive, and the strong always go to war. Life is a never-ending battle.
He is a deity who literally tells his followers to seek unceasing war against their enemies, and to kill or enslave all that oppose them. He tells them to acquire territory, destroy elves, their homes, and their lands. However, they should not stop with the elves, but should also crush the dwarves and take their lands. He commands that they be strong, and be prepared to show their strength at a moments notice. He warns that showing weakness is the key to an early death, and then tells them that any in the tribe who are too weak to fight should be killed. His priests then tell them that the greatest gift Gruumsh has given them is the ability to survive in places where the weaker races would die. Gruumsh commands the Orcs to build their strength in the lands where others struggle to survive and then use that strength to overrun their enemies.
That is a divine mandate - straight from the lips of a god and his priests. Priests, by the way, who possess the ability to call upon his divine power.
Now, try to imagine what such a society might look like from the inside. What might the average Orc be like, what might he feel day-to-day? What is it like to be a female among the Orcs? As you construct this society for the Orcs look to the real world for examples.
During the Second World War some American GI's used **** against Japanese women. It was seen as a way to sharpen the aggressiveness of soldiers, to facilitate male bonding among warriors, and most importantly it reflected their "burning need to establish total dominance" over their conquered enemies. Over 10,000 Japanese women were raped in the first 10 days of the occupation of Japan. Furthermore, as American GI's were constantly confronted by Japanese kamikaze assaults on their lines, they began to believe that there was only one solution to deal with the Japanese soldiers: mass destruction. They began to believe that reasoning with them was hopeless. A war correspondent named Robert Sherrod summarized the general opinion among the GIs by saying: "killing them was easier than teaching them".
Also, look to the Yugoslavian Civil War where **** was systematic and thorough - where military leaders encouraged their soldiers to **** civilians. They employed it as a method of ethnic cleansing - an actual form of genocide. They actually created **** camps to literally herd captured women into, and then proceeded to **** them on a daily basis until pregnancy occurred.
When I imagine Orc society I imagine it largely being similar to both of the above real world examples. Orcs employ **** against their enemies to establish dominance over them, to sharpen their aggressiveness and to facilitate bonding among their warriors. In tribal warfare, male orcs capture female Orcs, bring them back to their tribe and **** them in a form of ethnic cleansing against the other tribe.
Strength is paramount to the Orcs, and if they were strong enough to capture their women (which meant that they likely killed most if not all of their men) then their weakness had to be bred out of the race. Any male child that was fathered by the Orcs of the opposing tribe would be killed. Females would be kept for breeding purposes, and once they could no longer have more children they too are killed.
On the off chance that a male is allowed to survive it is only as a slave, and he would be castrated to prevent his breeding with the women. If he failed to survive the castration then it was only a display of his weakness.
The sympathetic view of Orcs:
My goal is not to paint the Orcs in a sympathetic light. It is to try and paint them as they truly are according to how I believe such a society might be like based on the lore given. Not all tribes would be like the above and certainly some would be more civilized. However, it is important to remember that so long as they embrace an evil deity who commands them to do evil things they will continue to act in the manor described.
Nevertheless, when you invade an Orcish Settlement you are faced with more than just the male warriors. You are faced with their children and their women who, while they may also be evil to one degree or another, are not guilty of the crimes that the male warriors committed.
What is important, I believe, is that both sides are shown in equal measure. In order for someone to be good in the truest sense they must consider these things. A good person does not slaughter "monsters" without thinking of the consequences of their actions. They value life – that is the central tenet of being good and the primary difference between good and evil. Good values life while evil cares nothing for it.
Being good in a world that is largely uncaring is difficult. It is more than throwing a few gold coins to a couple of peasants. Likewise, evil is more than selfishness and greed. For this reason there are very few truly good people in the world as portrayed in D&D because the role of good is romanticized. On the other hand, the role of evil is also downplayed greatly. As a result both true good and evil are rarely seen.
The role of the good guys:
When faced with the situation that has been outlined involving the Orcs it poses a problem for the good guys such as a Paladin. In most cases the Paladin would refuse to attack the Orcish Settlement, no matter their crimes, because innocents might be harmed during the battle. The goal of the Paladin is to eradicate evil not to perpetuate it. As a result, the Paladin would prefer to face the Orcish Warriors on the open field of battle away from innocent civilians.
There is a reason that Paladins are the epitome of good and are true and noble heroes. They often die early and live their lives in constant struggle trying to maintain their virtues. They are always in danger of falling due to their own imperfect nature.
There is a reason many Ilmater Paladins commit acts such as self-flagellation. They must constantly remind themselves of the suffering of others, and their own ability to inflict suffering - their own impurity. Each action they take must be done in such away as to minimize harm to others as best that is possible, and when they find someone who is suffering it is their duty to help end that suffering or take it upon themselves to suffer for them.
Ilmater commands them to help all who hurt, no matter who they are. He teaches that the truly holy take on the suffering of others, and the faithful believe that if you suffer in Ilmater's name he is there to support you. The faithful are commanded to stick to a cause if it is right, whatever the pain or peril, and that there is no shame in a meaningful death. They are to stand up to all tyrants and allow no injustice to go unchallenged. They believe that the spiritual nature of life is more important than the material body.
Thus in our scenario the Paladin would face the Orcish Warriors on the open battlefield. He will sacrifice his life in battle if necessary, knowing that he now faces even greater risk than had he taken the easy way out.
After he is victorious he will not forget or overlook the women and children left behind by the male warriors. He will not allow himself to be overtaken by hatred of their actions; in fact, a Paladin struggles against such temptations. He strives to forgive his enemy of their transgressions because he knows that hatred leads to thoughts of vengeance, and vengeance is a dangerous road that eats at his soul until he has fallen.
He rides to the Orcish Settlement and offers the women and children safe haven within human lands. He liberates all who wish to follow him, and they trust him, because they know a Paladin cannot break his word. He brings all he can back to the Ilmater Priests who take on the suffering endured by the women and children under the hands of their oppressive deity.
The Ilmater Paladin then stands against his own race and society, to protect the rights of the Orcs to live in their lands provided they obey the law. He combats the prejudice that they face and keeps his word to protect them. He mourns for all that he could not save. He takes the suffering he has inflicted upon the child who will never know his father into himself, and he strives to live the rest of his days doing the best he can for that child.
This is the difference between good and evil. Throughout all of this the Paladin struggles with his own emotions and feelings. Hatred for the Orcs for what they have done, and the need to let go of that hatred in order to do the right thing. Good is the most difficult road to travel, whereas evil is always the easiest – therefore it is always the most tempting.
This is the essence of my point, though I admit it was unclear. In order for there to be good heroes, there must be evil villains, and the heroes must have their values constantly challenged. Doing the right thing is never easy. It is easy to look at the actions of the Orcs who **** and pillage, and then proceed to their settlement and slaughter every man, woman and child under the pretense that they are evil. However, is that really the good thing to do?
It is my feeling that most DM's like to leave out the details because they want their players to be heroes without actually being heroes. They slaughter the Orcs, they save the village, the people cheer them on, and the story ends. For the true hero that is only the first chapter. The first may be a hero in the eyes of the villagers, but when put next to the true hero he is a pale imitation.
The role of the DM:
Now I want to be clear. I am not saying one method is better than another. A good DM will never put something like **** into a game if his or her players are uncomfortable with it. Most likely it will take place in the background or not happen at all. That is valid. It is important to remember that the point of the game is to have fun.
If you have fun just slaughtering the Orcs that is a valid way of playing. However, in my opinion it undermines the single strength of a role-playing game. Anyone can slaughter an Orc and have some fun with their friends. However, the truth of the matter is, you can do the same thing in a MMORPG.
The difference between a MMORPG and a role-playing game is your ability to immerse yourself into a character that lives and exists in a different world. You have the ability to leave behind your daily life and become someone or something that you could never hope to be in reality. You can be the Paladin of Ilmater, or just as easily, you could become the pillaging Orc. The approach is different but the goal is still to provide enjoyment.
Have you ever read a book so good that you are sucked into it? I am talking about a book so good that you lose track of time and it is almost painful to put down? I am talking about a book that felt so real to you that you could swear that it almost happened. In your minds eye you can see it taking place. We are talking about a book so good that you actually forget that you are reading all together.
To me that is the essence of role-playing. Well let me rephrase that. That is the essence of GOOD role-playing. Whereas you can read a book and passively watch things unfold; when you are role-playing you are actually participating in the story.
Look at the writer. Anyone who can put words to paper can write a story. The difference between the writer and an author is that the author uses his story to provide his reader with an experience. Like the author, a good DM uses his world to provide his players with an experience.
As a DM it is my goal for you to experience my world. When an NPC I have created is in trouble I want you to feel the need to help him. When your character is in trouble I want you to feel your characters fear. I want you to forget that you are rolling dice and simply, for a short amount of time, become someone else entirely.
In order to accomplish that a world must be both believable and consistent. I must know what makes you tick and then I must understand your character. You cannot achieve this through a prefabricated adventure it is something that must be tailored to the players involved.
I have to ask myself: If I introduce the Orc Rapist what will the players response be – how will it make them feel emotionally? How can I use this scene to the maximum benefit in order to make them feel sympathetic to the victims? Perhaps they will run into a little girl, who has lost her family – maybe she has escaped the Orcs and has been brutalized in horrific ways. What does this girl look like? What is her mental state? What does **** do to a victim? What does her surroundings look like? Is she crying or is she obviously numb on the inside from the experience? What is she wearing and how can I use what she is wearing to convey that she has been brutalized? Then I have to ask what does the girl tell them; does she withhold information because she has blocked it out, and if so how can I get this information across to the players without breaking the suspension of disbelief?
Next, I have to really think about how this will effect the players emotionally and psychologically. Can my players handle a scene like this? They are not passively watching as in a movie or book. They are participating. They are experiencing it – they are involved. How does this effect them?
Finally, I have to ask myself how do I want their characters to react? One is a Paladin of Ilmater. Do I want to test him? Do I want the girl to say or do something to trigger a desired reaction? How do I anticipate the Paladin to react, and then how do I anticipate the others to react to him? How can I craft this scene to get this desired response? If I feel that my original plan of crafting the scene is going to fail, I have to start over from scratch.
Just as an artist attempts to use each brushstroke to convey something in a painting, it is also my desire to craft a world and a scene that conveys something to those who participate in my game. In a scene that I know will test them emotionally, I have to find a way to channel that emotion into their characters and into the world.
However, at the same time I have to be cautious and respectful. I have to remember that if I am successful my players are experiencing something that, although not really happening, could feel real to them. In their minds eye they are seeing the girl, they are seeing her brutalization. I do not want my players to lose the separation between what happens in the game and what happens in the real world. At all times, a player should be able to pull himself away from his or her character and feel that there is a strong separation between the two.
The danger is always there that a player may internalize something like that, or worse it may bring up memories of an event that happened to them in reality. Therefore, it is important that everyone who participates in the game is aware that it may contain elements that could trigger unwanted memories and emotions. If such does happen, all players must be respectful. That is the rule. The game is a safe place in which to find enjoyment and do things that they could not otherwise do, but once it is no longer enjoyable for someone the game ends. Period.
I fully realize that my method of DMing is vastly different than the majority of those who post here. There is nothing inferior with doing it differently, but I do feel that it goes against the strongest aspect of the game.
When you leave my game I want you to remember it and think about what happened. I want you to remember your battle against the Orcs. I want you to remember what it was like to look across the battlefield and see that tribe who had committed horrific acts charging toward you. I want you to remember the pangs of fear in the pit of your stomach as you heard the war drums and the chanting. I want you to remember what it was like to be separated from your comrades in battle and to stand toe to toe with the Orc Chieftain, to look into his one eye, and match him blow for blow with your blade.
I want you to remember what it was like after the battle, as you and your comrades quietly rode into that Orcish Settlement that was like a ghost town. How it was so quiet you could hear a pin drop, and yet you could see the fearful inhuman eyes gazing at you from inside their shanty homes.
I want you to remember what it was like trying to convince the Orcish Females that you meant their children no harm, and trying to describe to them what freedom meant. I want you to remember what it was like when you marched the Orc Survivors into Cormyr for the first time – the looks on the faces of the people. The struggles you had with the nobility, and even the prejudice you faced within your own Church.
I want you to remember all of those things, but most importantly I want you to remember what it was like to be a Paladin of Ilmater and what it was like to be a true hero.
If I am successful in that then I feel that I have accomplished my goal – I have crafted a story that you have experienced and enjoyed and will remember always. You will know what it is like to see true evil, to look it in the eye, and to feel its touch and grip within your own heart. You will know what it is like to reject the evil and become a true hero, worthy of praise throughout the Realms for generations to come.
That in essence is the point I was trying to make. I know this is long but I hope it is clear.
Most importantly, I hope people actually took the time to read it. ;)
THAT ma'am/sir was beautiful. My players call me Half-Orc Paladin all the time (They say I go out of my way to do the "right thing" but I'm impulsive in nature). You definately make me think of The Martyr God in a different spectrum. seriously you just insired me
Drow are no more evil or less than Orcs.
I was not saying that all Orcs are savage monsters who **** and pillage for fun. However, there are a few things that I feel are important to understand.
1. Under the D&D system good and evil are real and tangible things. They exist. They are not subjective. Orcs are largely Chaotic Evil - why is that? My reason: Their Gods. Which like good and evil, are also real and not subjective.
2. My post focused on a single tribe, in a single situation, under single circumstances. However, in my opinion Orc Society is much more complex than that though IMO if you are going to have an Orc Tribe dominated by primarily Gruumsh and Bahgtru worshipers that is what it is going to look like. If I have time I will craft a post dealing with how I perceive Orc Society in a more detailed way. Primarily, the complexities among the Orc Deities and how they seem to be struggling among each other, but the battle is playing out among their followers.
For now, please be satisfied with my previous six page post. :P
3. I set up the situation to illustrate my point.
4. I pointed out a way to redeem the Orcs. I pointed out the reasons that they were evil: their deities and culture. Then I pointed out the way to redeem them: conversion away from their evil deities and eradicating their culture.
Of course that wasn't the point of my post, but I hope if anyone read it that they'd take that way from it.
I hope it is more clear now. :P
I like it and it would be a shame to disrupt such a lovely work.
I was talking about #131. :P
THAT ma'am/sir was beautiful. My players call me Half-Orc Paladin all the time (They say I go out of my way to do the "right thing" but I'm impulsive in nature). You definately make me think of The Martyr God in a different spectrum. seriously you just insired me
I am glad you found my post useful and inspirational. My mission was accomplished. :P
But yes, I'm mostly looking for this.
1. Writing up Orcs as a Chaotic Evil but not over the top evil race. As evil as Elves are good. I.e. Large examples of better qualities amongst orcs just as Elves have bad qualities.
2. Showing how this race moves to a race that moves all across the spectrum just like humans.
3. Keeping the fundamentals of Orc culture like the Elves and the Seldarine.
Meet the Ondonti - A peaceful farmer who only wants to plow your field.
You did word it like that intentionally, didn't you?
Drow are no more evil or less than Orcs.
-Not necessarily. We know, from their history, that Drow are not inherently evil, and that their behavior stems from the influence of their society, which is dominated by Lolth, and is evil. With Orcs, we don't have that same evidence. I'm not saying that the Orcs might be in a similar boat, but...
You did word it like that intentionally, didn't you?
-I was thinking the same thing.
Again, neutral don't means nice. At all.
But it doesn't mean evil!
But they weren't soulless abominations. They were people, people who believed that they could take by force from weaker people. People who were *encouraged* by their leaders to go 'a-Viking' to keep them happy with plunder (since said leaders *really* didn't want them sitting around complaining all summer, and, invariably, challenging said leaders right to rule. Rule number one of rulership, keep 'em happy.). People who went home to have wives, raise sons, plow fields (in both metaphorical and non-metaphorical ways), milk cattle, forge gear, craft longships and brew honey-mead. Those nights of terror seen by those they pillaged was a tiny snapshot of a long year, the vast majority of which was spent at home with the family or at sea.
Just because the average human sees an Orc only during a night of terror when the village is on fire and he can't find his daughter does not mean that the Orc is going to be doing that 365 nights a year. The Orc, being a literary construct, doesn't technically even exist during those other 364 nights a year, just as the average monk, rebuilding his monastary, neither knows nor cares that the Viking exists 364 days a year, and not just on the night of the raid.
The Orc isn't *always* Chaotic Evil, like a demon. It's not some soulless atrocious inhuman EEEEVIL anymore than the Vikings from 13th Warrior were evil. It's just a (usually) violent, foul-tempered person in a brutal culture, just as the elves are not inhumanly good and pure, like Celestials, but are (generally) nicer, more empathic people in a more laid-back culture.
Do you think there is more **** of Orcs against humans, then Humans against humans?
Don't know, but I hope it was obvious from my post that I think **** is disgusting and immoral no matter who it is who commits the act. I also hope I made it clear that I do not consider **** justifiable EVER.
Bah, Orc women are sexy!
Oh wait, that's a Cimmerian woman.
Same difference!
She's bony-looking; like an under-fed model dressed up as a warrior.
Yes, unfortunately there's not much in the way of healthy looking Cimmerians amongst Age of Conan people.
Can't say I'm surprised.
But it doesn't mean evil!
I'm dangerously Godwin here, but we have us here, in rl.
Make that as you see it.
Now replace with Orcs.
Orcs-616
Monstrous Manual Write-Up
Orc, 1st-Level Warrior
Size/Type: Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+3 studded leather armor), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+4
Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Falchion +4 melee (2d4+4/18-20) or javelin +1 ranged (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., light sensitivity
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will -2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 7, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +1, Spot +1
Feats: Alertness
Environment: Any
Organization: Gang (2-4), squad (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader
of 3rd-6th level), or band (30-100 plus 150% noncombatants plus
1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and
3 7th-level captains)
Challenge Rating: ½
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Often Neutral Evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0
An orc’s hair usually is black and frequently unkept or bound in dreadlocks. Orcs often decorate themselves in beads, feathers, and small trophies of their kills like fingerbones or teeth necklaces. These are marks of status amongst Orcs and help determine the society's strong inclination to pecking order.
Their equipment is well kept but frequently designed to be intimidating to look upon. An adult male orc is a little over 6 feet tall and weighs about 210 pounds. Orcs strongly resemble human beings when not covered in their traditional war paint, woad, and camouflage. They are noticible by their feline eyes, pronounced canines, and pronounced foreheads that put some in the mind of Neanderthalls. Females are slightly smaller.
The language an orc speaks varies slightly from tribe to tribe, but any orc is understandable by someone else who speaks Orc. Some Orcs know Goblin, Human Common, or Giant as well.
Most orcs encountered away from their homes are warriors; the information in the statistics block is for one of 1st level.
Combat
Orcs are proficient with all simple weapons, preferring those that cause the most damage in the least time. Many orcs who take up the warrior or fighter class also gain proficiency with the falchion or the greataxe as a martial weapon. They enjoy attacking from concealment and setting ambushes, and they obey the rules of war (such as honoring a truce) only as long as it is convenient for them.
Light Sensitivity (Ex)
Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Orcs As Characters
Orc Traits (Ex)
Orcs possess the following racial traits.
* +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.
* An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.
* Favored Class: Barbarian.
The orc warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 9, Cha 8.
Half-Orcs
These orc-human crossbreeds can be found in either orc or human society (where their status varies according to local sentiments), or in communities of their own. Half-orcs usually inherit a good blend of the physical characteristics of their parents. They are as tall as humans and a little heavier, thanks to their muscle. They have grayish or brown pigmentation, sloping foreheads, jutting jaws, prominent teeth, and piercing eyes. Half-orcs who have lived among or near orcs have scars, in keeping with orcish tradition.
Half-Orc Traits (Ex)
Half-orcs possess the following racial traits.
* +2 Strength, -2 Wisdom
* Medium size.
* A half-orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
* Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin
* Favored Class: Fighter
Player Character Race Write-Up
Orcs-616
Orcs on Faerun have inhabited the planet since the Orcgate Wars and arguably were there beforehand, depending which scholars one consults. They are a fiercely savage and untamable race which resists all attempts to dominate them while living in a perpetual state of conflict with the majority of species amongst them. They have frequently tales spread about them which liken them to practioners of Cannibalism, Demon Worship, Genocide, Mass ****, and other unsavory practices. The hatred held between Elves and Orcs is only slightly less than the one that the race holds for the Drow. Likewise, Goblins are the only race that Dwarves despise more than the Children of Gruumsh.
In truth, the Orcs are a brutal and savage race but have usually gotten along fairly well with their neighbors by comparison to most other species. Orcs have ancient friendship with the majority of Humanoid species in Faerun and are often allied with human beings against Demihuman species as the reverse. Recently, as the chaos of the Time of Troubles and Spell Plague has driven more from their homelands, they have become a permanent fixture in many cities to the disgust of certain races and profit of others.
Personality: Orcs are extremely survival minded as the teachings of Gruumsh have decreed. The survival of the tribe, or whatever immediate social unit they involve themselves in, is effectively viewed as the highest priority. They do not sentimentalize war and tend to not take prisoners or give quarter. Indeed, most orcs seem extremely perplexed by the byzantine customs that most races associate matters with. Leadership is earned by the most capable and taken from those no longer suited for it.
Those beings that find themselves as part of an Orc tribe or social unit will often find themselves with a overly defensive and protective companion. Orcs will voluntarilly give their lives for their fellow warriors, their fellow warrior's cubs, and their fellow warrior's permanent mates. They expect as much in return.
Orcs tend to violently resist any attempt to gain authority over them that is not through the tribal mindset. Only the threat of execution is likely to force an Orc into submission and then it is merely a matter of time before they eventually rise up. Only Zhentil Keep has had any luck forcing Orcs into any form of military discipline and those that employ the savages tend to prefer to simply let them sort pecking order out amongst themselves.
Orcs tend to be passionate, highly sexual creatures, and strongly favor strong and virile mates. Most tend to have a superstitous fear of magic users and loathe clerics that are not of their gods. Orcish women have been known to kidnap human men from local regions when war has depleted their ranks. Orcish women are trained in fighting like the men but tend to reserve their actions for guarding the home region as opposed to going on war raids or strikes.
Appearance: Orcs physically resemble primitive human beings and there is some speculation amongst scholars that the two races were once one at a previous point in time (to the loud and vigorous condemnation of their peers). An Orc raised amongst human beings and kept from their tribal practices would not be able to pass but the similiarities would stun most human beings. Tales of the legendary ugliness of Orcs is just propaganda from those whom have never seen them outside of the battlefield.
Indeed, many 'Half-Orcs' living amongst human society are actually full blooded Orcs who just find it easier to pretend. Unlike human beings, Orcs have pronounced canines and cat-like eyes that intimidate those around them. They favor a muscular body type and tend to tower over those around them.
Fully tribal Orcs love terrifying their enemies into submission and tend to cover themselves in body paint, camoflage, practice ritual scarification, and tatooing. Some tribes even go so far as to cut off their own noses in order to make them more resemble skulls (this is the source of the legendary "pig nose.") They favor dreadlocks, mowhawks, shaven heads. or simply leaving their hair completely wild.
Alignment: Orcish morality is determined by survival and what best suits that value. It is an uncivilized code that is far removed from the majority of mankind's laws but not without its laws. The majority of Orcs favor Neutral Evil as they are a race that is deeply at home in the savage and bloodthirsty wilderness where natural law rules the day. They are a pack like species that strongly favors its family ties and those Orcs who turn against their own kin are swiftly slain or driven out.
A particularly fierce warrior might find himself or herself allowed a few 'eccentricies' in terms of their behavior. Good Orcs do exist but they tend to dwell in Realms where human culture has overwhelmed traditional Orcish culture or they've moved themselves away from the savagery of the wild. The Odonti worshipers of Eldath are an anomoly amongst the Orcs but hardly the only group of them.
Orc Lands: Orcs carve out their territories as best they can but pretty much are able to settle nearly everywhere. They are a hunter-gatherer people by nature and rarely take up ranching, even less so farming since meat makes up the vast majority of an orcs traditional needs.
Orcs tend to make friends with most Humanoid tribes in a region as opposed to slaughtering them. Bugbears, Giants, Gnolls, Goblins, Ogres, and Trolls are typical species that often find themselves aligned with Orcs. Humans, especially Barbarians, without much fondness for Elves or Dwarves are often the closest to Orc tribes with frequent interbreeding. Human settlements frequently help Orcs develop their metal work and often they quickly rise to the same tech level around them as the species is especially adaptive even if its not terribly innovative. Orcs as a whole are continually frustrated by the bi-polar reaction they tend to recieve from humanity and thus tend to view civilization with a corrupting effect on the race.
Orcs are almost all aware that Dwarves and Elves are the enemy of their race. They rarely wait to confirm that a group is hostile when spotted and almost immediate begin plotting how to destroy them. Orcs are a slave holding race by inclination and often take captives from such wars, which does little to endear them. Orcs believe that slavery is preferrable to the execution that is the only 'reasonable' alternative in wartime.
Religion: Most Orcs worship Gruumsh and the Orcish Pantheon that holds the Orcs will eventually inherit the world. The majority of Orc tribes tend to interpret this through the settlement of land rather than military conquest. Gruumsh teaches that survival and practicaly trump all over considerations. He is a crafty god and the rest of the pantheon frequently defers to his wisdom in all matters.
Orcs are a race that also tends to add human gods to their worship that appeal to them. Orc shamans frequently find themselves also revering Auril, Malar, Silvanus, Talos, Tempus, and Mask amongst other heavy handed gods. The Orcs around Zhentil Keep have almost all voluntarily converted to Bane's worship.
In general, Orcs tend to have a somewhat impious attitude towards Gruumsh. They fear his attention and rarely invoke him save in curses or during battle.
Languages: Orcs speak their own tongue and a variety of other languages around them as appropriate.
Names: Orcs tend to favor simple yet harsh sounding names. Thog, Crast, Conan, Gatra, or the like are all popular.
Adventurers: Almost all Orcs are Barbarians that grow up in a tribal environment. Those from more civilized tribes that learn about armor, tactics, and the like from humans tend to be fighters. Rangers are also very common amongst Orcs and tend to become masters of navigating the wild.
Due to the Orcs favoring sneaking and treachery over outright confrontation when appropriate, Rogues are often a popular multiclass. Orcs have no innate concept of property outside of the tribe and thus see no reason in liberating wealth for their own use.
Orcish clerics live apart from the rest of the tribes, half revered and half loathed. Almost no Orcs become Wizards but some Sorcerers are born and held up as objects of veneration.
Recommendations welcome.
The thing to keep in mind is that Orcs are not cosmetically appealing; therefore, they will never receive the same kind of appreciation as the say the Elves. Just look at the Elves, there are at least six different subraces and a dozen gods. Why do you think there are so many sudden "Good" Drow, even a goodie drow god. It is because they're purdy and they feed people's need to feel oppressed and blame their problems on it.
As to the argument that they are animals, that is obvious. Slaughtering an animal isn't as difficult as murdering a thinking and breathing creature with a family. Slaughtering an animal's mate or pups is, you know, crude but hey its better then letting them starve to death right? It's a mercy killing and the best for everyone...
Using any common sense, Obould would never receive the blessing of Gruumsh. NEVER. Obould exemplifies everything Gruumsh is against, particularly when taken against his portfolio.
Gruumsh Canon
"Seek unceasing war against your enemies, and kill or enslave those who oppose you. Acquire territory and living space. Destroy elves, their homes, and their lands. Crush the dwarves and take their deep caves for your own. Be strong, and be prepared to show your strength at any moment. Showing weakness is the key to an early death. Those that are too weak to fight for your tribe should be put to the spear. The greatest gift that He Who Watches gave to the orcs was the ability to survive where the weaker races would die. Build your strength in these lands and use them to overrun your enemies."
By Gruumsh's own rule, his is a traitor to everything Gruumsh stands for. He has allied with non-Orcs, he leads well and with sense. He does not rule in chaos and slaughter.
I'm not even going to bring up R.A. Salvatore's writing, it's crap.
The only way I see such a vast and sweeping change is by a cataclysmic event that destroys so many people the Orcs are forced to ally and live beside the other common races. These kind of events do not particularly draw in players to a story, honestly most people consider them a weak storytelling tool.
Ever seen The Day After Tomorrow?
Gruumsh is not going to change, period. Even if he did, there would have to be another god to take his place and the portfolio he left behind. Gruumsh is ancient evil, he's not going to change because he had a bad day or cause some mortal is being a little nicer then most of the Orc people.
Something that could bring about such a vast change is a war of the Gods in the Orc Pantheon. This would be the the kind of circumstance I could see causing such a sweeping change among their people.
Maybe a particularly powerful Orc champion holds Ilneval above Gruumsh. Over time, his actions result in a greater worship of Ilneval and Gruumsh begins to feel threatened by it. Using his cunning, Gruumsh sends Ilneval to do battle with Lathander beside Bahgtru. Neither god alone or together is a match for the Morninglord, but they're told their job is to weaken him for Gruumsh's death blow. Instead Bahgtru turns on Ilneval and holds him, expecting Lathander to land the deathblow. Being good and honorable, Lathander naturally refuses. Ilneval breaks free and turns on Bahgtru, slaying the idiot god.
As a result, Ilneval become Lawful Neutral. His Orc's Favored Class can be Fighter instead of Barbarian. They lack the strength of their rage, but they're more organized and disciplined. You could even begin this revolution with the Grey Orcs of the Unapproachable East, who are already wiser if not as strong as their mountain kin. The Orcs haven't really changed, instead of madly charging into you, they form ranks and attack as a unit instead of a motley.
A century is a short time, it seems like a long time from a Human perspective, but from the psyche it is very small. These are creatures that have lived through multible generations of oppression from every race that lives around them. Humans slaughter them, Dwarves slaughter them, Elves shoot them with arrows and magic, Ogres/Giants use them as slaves. Surprise surprise, they're a little angry.
Bah, Orc women are sexy!
Yes... yes they are...
(yes,yes, Warcraft, blablablaI know.)
Anyone have any thoughts for that write-up for Orcs in FR? It changes a lot but I think it gives a very clear idea of the race.
That can of worms, my friend, was opened by you. ;)
Give me a down-to-earth Orc Girl over a snobby, Elven princess anyday!
You posted THE FIRST pic Charles, but now you want to limit OUR abilty to respond?
That can of worms, my friend, was opened by you. ;)
Give me a down-to-earth Orc Girl over a snobby, Elven princess anyday!
But I actually meant the ugly picture.
You posted THE FIRST pic Charles, but now you want to limit OUR abilty to respond?
That can of worms, my friend, was opened by you. ;)
Give me a down-to-earth Orc Girl over a snobby, Elven princess anyday!
And yet no one has posted that World of Warcraft thief girl.
Btw... Mass Effect: oooh... Blue boobies!!!
No, these are Blue Boobies
They live on the Galápagos Islands, one of my favorite RW locales and also an excellent novel. ;)
1. Elves are obviously Vulcans.
2. Humans are Humans, stupid and go-get em types.
3. The orcs are Klingons. Huge guys who revere fighting above all else.
4. The Romulans are the Drow, sans Lolth because she's copyright protected.
Gorn are Lizardmen... naturally. ;)
Andorians are Insectare (Spelljammer)
Changelings are Dopplegangers (natch)
The Borg.... Hmmm... Abolethic Minions (Skum)?
The Doctor is able to cast Raise Dead on 7 of 9 due to his status as a 12th level Cleric of Phlebotinium
And I found a 'pin-up' of a Gammorean woman... you thought the Orcs were bad?
I felt the Star Trek reference would destroy any credibility I had.
But yes, I think my write-up will much more believably fit into my Forgotten Realms than the pure KILL KILL KILL write-up of Meldread that's wonderful for a "Dark Horde"
I have no idea what 3E Orcs are supposed to represent. Reavers perhaps.
-Concerning those Orc stats, I'd note somewhere in alignment, or religion, that it is the influence of the Orc pantheon that is the major reason Orcs are evil, as Orcs who do not worship that pantheon are often neutral or good (Odonti). Put two and two together, since it's alluded to.
-...You all sicken me...
-Concerning those Orc stats, I'd note somewhere in alignment, or religion, that it is the influence of the Orc pantheon that is the major reason Orcs are evil, as Orcs who do not worship that pantheon are often neutral or good (Odonti). Put two and two together, since it's alluded to.
LK, us elves have long known orcs to be root of all evil! Take the square root of "evil" and you end up with "orc." Clever elf mathematicians figured this out aeons ago.
Odonti are just fooling you! They're as evil as dentists and closely related too! Get some genocide on the roll!
-...You all sicken me...
Join us! :P ;)
-...You all sicken me...
C'mon... come over to the 'Dark Side'...
And since Gruumsh = Talos now, we don't have to worry about all those old 'racial misconceptions'. :P
Okay, we're moving Orcs from "Usually Chaotic Evil" to "Unaligned" (predominately neutral) in the Forgotten Realms over the period of the Spell Plague at our table.
So, how do we do it?
Please contribute your in-Realms events and thoughts to bringing about this massive sweeping change.
You're surley a man on a mission, are you not? First it is about killing Lolth, now it is about redeeming orcs!
All this redeeming of this and that race is a utter nonsense, in many a way. It all sounds like some overly-good saint running about and releaves all the baddies, their ancestors' and what have you off their sins of the past, One day, someone will walk in and try to redeem the Abyss as such ...
Kinda reminds me of how earlier today I read "wore a web cape" as "wrote a web page".
You're surley a man on a mission, are you not? First it is about killing Lolth, now it is about redeeming orcs!
All this redeeming of this and that race is a utter nonsense, in many a way. It all sounds like some overly-good saint running about and releaves all the baddies, their ancestors' and what have you off their sins of the past, One day, someone will walk in and try to redeem the Abyss as such ...
Why not? Maybe even the dark lords will realise the futility of Samsara and the bad karma. ;)
Well, seriously, it's not whitewashing and goody-ing a smuch as greying the world. Things are not so white and black at times..
You're surley a man on a mission, are you not? First it is about killing Lolth, now it is about redeeming orcs!
You know, at times I think you completely missed that it was a thread about killing Lolth.
It boils down to the fact that I've never been fond of Orcs being EVIL as opposed to just being evil. I like my Orcs being about as evil as the worshipers of Malar. In other words, nasty and brutal sorts who kill and plunder while indulging in every sort of indulgence whatsoever but nothing that doesn't have its own sort of appeal.
"I am not evil... I *am* evil!" - Gades
C'mon... come over to the 'Dark Side'...
-There is no 'Dark Side'. There is no 'Light Side'. There simply is the Force. The Unifying Force.
Lex Luthor: *WRONG*!
As to the argument that they are animals, that is obvious. Slaughtering an animal isn't as difficult as murdering a thinking and breathing creature with a family. Slaughtering an animal's mate or pups is, you know, crude but hey its better then letting them starve to death right? It's a mercy killing and the best for everyone...
Hmmm...and there's no reason to let them go to WASTE, now is there?
With the price of meat what it is,
When you get it,
*If* you get it...
*licks lips* I wonder if orc tastes better than Shade?
-There is no 'Dark Side'. There is no 'Light Side'. There simply is the Force. The Unifying Force.
Correction -
C'mon over to the Green side...
At least she can "go wild".
And if Elminster preffers Elven Maidens he knows why.
:-)
Too bad she's a Blood Elf and not one of the few High Elves that arte still part of the Alliance.
Or her http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/new_art/01/zhai.shtml
But not ORCS
I mean really, you just can't justify that extra-feat. Who wants a race that is so ill defined they are any alignment and have no mono-culture?
They might retool them or just drop them altogether.
[sarcasm]-Yeah, Humans have no place in fantasy![/sarcasm]
I mean really, you just can't justify that extra-feat. Who wants a race that is so ill defined they are any alignment and have no mono-culture?
-I have always been, and continue to be, a proponent of Human 'subraces'. This would be especially noticible in the Realms, I think. A Shou Human is not genetically identical to a Calashite Human.
There's marked controversy over Attribute variations for humans.
But it works for me.
Let's face it, Cimmerians are stupid but lovable brutes.
There's marked controversy over Attribute variations for humans.
But it works for me.
-That's the main reason it hasn't been done, and probably never will be. But, hey, I've done it in my own setting, so whatever.
+2 to Charisma -2 to Wisdom
Requirements: Must be a gigantic lothario.
'Bloodline Feats': One is selectable for free at first level. Every region has one or two.
And don't get me started on female humans, I got enough of those from RL.
Last I checked, one of the only things that set one 'race' of humans apart from another was fairly trivial... like Europeans ability to digest lactose throughout their entire life, which the other three 'variants' of Earthen humans cannot do, if I recall correctly... doesn't quite justify the idea of subraces really.
-That's why the concept that Charles raised- 'Bloodline Feats'- appeals to me.
I suppose... don't really like the idea myself, but that's usually more to do with the idea that the bonuses gained need to balanced out by a loss somewhere else.
-Sometimes it's warranted, sometimes it's not.
-What ever happened to, you know, good ol' Humans?
Some of them are quite attractive.:D
Some of them are quite attractive.:D
Pffft, fangirl.
And when its warranted, I don't have a problem with it... all a part of my seething hatred of artificial attempts at balancing a game... I'm generally a firm believer in the notion that life isn't fair. And no, it doesn't bother me being on the short end of that balance equation.
I'm also a beliver of that. That's why Fighter should never be as good as Spellcasters, period. Wizards improve with age, Fighters no.
Some of them are quite attractive.:D
-Yes, I know, I know, believe you me. ;)
I'm also a beliver of that. That's why Fighter should never be as good as Spellcasters, period. Wizards improve with age, Fighters no.
They should be.
I have a Conan comic who shown it quite well a side of this... evil corrupted noble couldn't cast so quickly, and so... Steel should be able to trump magic at times. And vice versa.
All that reliance on magic... it can't be so superior still. Also, an old wolf can improve with age... body may get worn, the mind is still there. And also, ki and all that. So on.
The balance is not artificial necessarly - of course, a warrior is better to a sorcerer in face-to-face battle. But in game, they should and would be egal, just with pluses and cons.
Life is not fair indeed. But it's also a game.
But basta, who I am to speak? I am insane.
We talking Defy Gravity Limit Breaks and stuff or just Conan very good swinging?
Classic medieval European fantasy, that doesn't work quite so well, although if its set up in the original premise, I wouldn't really have that big of a problem with it... but that really wouldn't be 'classic' anymore.
Depends on how far you go back. Merlin was never portrayed as having any 'spells' that were good in a fight. Wizards, sorcerers, etc. tended to do their 'casting' well away from combat, or be consulted as oracles or providers of lore or magical weapons by the heroes on their way to the adventure.
Modern fantasy has turned wizards into 'lazors, pew-pew-pew,' but that wasn't the way that they tended to appear in classical appearances. Even Gandalf spent more time swinging Glamdring around than using magic.
But even spells that don't do direct damage can change the flow of a battle. The power to change reality is way over the power of a sword's edge, even when it's excalibur, that's the true essense of magic, aplication of the Will to Change the World. And it's Wizards and other Spellcasters that make the Magic Equipement that every adventure uses.
Or she http://www.toddlockwood.com/galleries/new_art/04/blood_elf.shtml
Too bad she's a Blood Elf and not one of the few High Elves that arte still part of the Alliance.
Why she holding a blue cricket bat?
Also, the night elf ears. They look like broomstick shafts! Wwwhhhhhyyyy did Blizzard do this!? Elves had elf ears in Warcraft 2, not those... things!
Modern fantasy has turned wizards into 'lazors, pew-pew-pew,' but that wasn't the way that they tended to appear in classical appearances. Even Gandalf spent more time swinging Glamdring around than using magic.
*HUGS!!!*
-Yes, I know, I know, believe you me. ;)
:D
So, guys, we were talking about orc redemption?:P
Can't help myself, sorry.
Also, an old wolf can improve with age... body may get worn, the mind is still there. .
Actually no, when animals get old and "worn-out", they tend not to last long (unless cared for by humans).:P
Sorry, couldn't resist.
I was under the impression that unaligned in 4E does not mean "neutral" so much as it means "amoral" -- in order for someone to be evil (or good) they really, really have to mean it.
I'm not sure what it means, but barring the official definition, I play Unaligned as one who has not chosen sides. Sort of John Constantine's Humanist in the War betwixt Heaven's Good and Hell's Evil.
I'm not sure what it means, but barring the official definition, I play Unaligned as one who has not chosen sides. Sort of John Constantine's Humanist in the War betwixt Heaven's Good and Hell's Evil.
From what I understand, that is in fact one way (though not the only way) to play an "unaligned" character. From what I read, it's good for "evil-curious" characters...though in time I might come to hate the term "evil-curious."
If we can't off Grummsh perhaps we need some why of changing him from CE? Perhaps there is a heavenly war and some of the Elf and Orc gods die leading to new gods rising up (King Many-Arrows?), gods that forght in the war or are less choatic and dumb than currently......which changes the balence of the Pantheon (I am working on the theory that the nature of the Gods partly defines the race) from Choas to Law, which over the century changes Grummsh too.
Or perhaps during the war Grummsh picks up/shallows/covered in an artifact that slowly stablizes his rage/chaotic nature and he shifts back to the LE posistion he held before; making the Orcs organize, militarize, and disciplined?
For me the problem with moving the Orcs along is that their Pantheon won't let them devolp.
FYI, I've stated that I reject the Gruumsh=Hairless Primitive Savage Orcs. I've never believed that and my interpretation of his personality is always "Whatever kills the most Elves."
I've never liked the Chaotic Evil=Dumb designation because I always maintain Palpatine is Chaotic Evil.
Emotional and rejecting authority above you doesn't mean stupid. It's why I reject the Drow as NE too.
I've never liked the Chaotic Evil=Dumb designation because I always maintain Palpatine is Chaotic Evil.
-How do you figure that? He is, in my mind's eye, the very embodiment of Lawful Evil.
What's remotely lawful about Palpatine? Planning doesn't effect alignment.
What's remotely lawful about Palpatine?
-The fact that, most of his rise to power, and subsequent domination of the galaxy, was done wholly lawfully. As a senator, he was bound to the laws of the Old Republic, and manipulated them such that he benefitted the most. As Chancellor, he orchestrated war, again, completely legal, and elevated himself to the position of Grand Chancellor. As Emperor, he ruled over a lawful society, and continued manipulating laws and such such that he maintained control of his empire. There is nothing I see as 'Chaotic' about him or his behavior.
-The fact that, most of his rise to power, and subsequent domination of the galaxy, was done wholly lawfully.
Chaotic Evils can hide their crimes like Palpatine did. Certainly, kidnapping and treason amongst the many other tools that Palpatine used to become Emperor were illegal. To me, Lawful Evil requires a certain respect for the institutions and Palpatine existed solely to overthrow them.
It's just he was publicly clean.
I agree with Karsus on Palpatine if though not necessarily his reasons; the way I see it, lawful evil characters don't just follow the laws, they will make their own. Scheming, backstabbing, manipulation... that's not chaotic, that's politics.
That's my definition of Chaotic Evil.
Lawful Evil follow their codes of honor rigidly and with the same belief structure that lawful good individuals follow their own beliefs.
Neutral Evil have their own codes of honor but tend to be flexible about them when the issues change.
Chaotic Evils are the Overman. They are beyond anything but their own rules and laws.
Seriously, I think it degrades Palpatine and Chaotic Evils as a whole to say that Palpatine allowed himself at any point to be stained by Order. He was far too intelligent and able to switch things around as circumstances changed to be Lawful Evil.
It's why Gra'azt will always be the best schemer in the Multiverse.
So essentially, you place more emphasis on the order-chaos axis than the good-evil one? (Not arguing, just curious.)
I very strongly support Law vs. Chaos.
You can have some truly awesomely EVIL Lawful Evil types. They're, however, for me the Knight Templar types. I.e. they really believe whatever weird creed they spout.
So there's certainly still a range in your Lawful Evil types with just your unlikeable bigots and your hardcore Fanatics.
However, I find that it's more fun with Chaotic Evils if you highlight their "I am a guy who doesn't believe in anything but my own advancement and
anyone who stands in my way."Obviously other DMs will define their viewpoints on Law vs. Chaos differently. I love the Joker but I think defining Chaotic Evil types as mindless honking nutters sort of destroys the fun of the characters and limits their usage.
Unfortunately, that leaves Neutral Evils as basically just the guys who are like Jarlaxle. They're kind of willing to follow a creed and behavior but, honestly, they'll bend the rules when it suits them.
A swift list would be.
Lawful Evil: Count Dooku, Daleks, Darth Maul, Destro, Darth Vader, Magneto, Sephiroth
Neutral Evil: Artemis Entreri, Darkseid, Jarlaxle, Lex Luthor, The Red Skull, Saruman
Chaotic Evil: Emperor Palpatine, Cobra Commander, The Joker, The Master, Sauron, Skeletor, Starscream
I'm open to statements to the contrary, of course.
FYI, I've stated that I reject the Gruumsh=Hairless Primitive Savage Orcs. I've never believed that and my interpretation of his personality is always "Whatever kills the most Elves."
I've never liked the Chaotic Evil=Dumb designation because I always maintain Palpatine is Chaotic Evil.
Emotional and rejecting authority above you doesn't mean stupid. It's why I reject the Drow as NE too.
I said the Panthon are chaotic and dumb beacause some of them are, I did not mean all of them are; Grummsh is certainly chaotic and savage- his published stats do not suggest he is dumb.
While I prefer to think of Orcs as cunning, organised, militaristic, and LE the books say they are not and are CE and more than a little disorganised, and savage. If we are going to sell 'Orcish Redemption' to people then we have to take that into account.
Thus how do you change the CE head of the Panethon, Grummsh to something else without hand waving him into NE or LE as a starting point? If a race reflects its Gods and are constraned by their behavior, creed and beliefs then we must change the gods first imho.
Orcs were LE then became CE after the TOT.
Artemis Entreri: LE (he only killed people that standed in his way)
Jarlaxle: CE (CN)
Artemis Entreri: LE (he only killed people that standed in his way)
And people he was paid to kill (even if they didn't necessarily deserve it).
I'd go along with Palpatine as LE myself... mostly for what LK said. I've always thought of CE as having very little ability to plan things out in hugely long range terms (that's relative, mind you) and tend to think of them as somewhat enslaved to their own whims and passions, with a generality to not really looking at long term consequences. While not an absolute concept for them, there will always be exceptions, its the general way I look at them.
Yeah, fundamentally I just don't see Chaotic Evil that way. For me, Lawful Evil people are restricted from being true villainous masterminds by their beliefs. Only Chaotic Evils are able to rise above that.....and Neutral to a lesser extent.
But this is the danger because at every table, it's a slightly different definition.
Neither of us disagree who Palpatine is, it's just "What does Chaotic Evil mean."
Neither of us disagree who Palpatine is...
Yes, well, *I* disagree with you. All of you.
I thought he was a very, very sweet man.
I thought he was a very, very sweet man.
-Well, if the saying 'you are what you eat' is true, and Palpatine, being over 100 years old, ate lots of prunes, and being pruny himself, he might be sweet, you're right.
Yes, well, *I* disagree with you. All of you.
I thought he was a very, very sweet man.
So true. Poor Palpie, so misunderstood. He had a heart of gold. No, really - he had a real heart of gold. It belonged to a Jedi and he had it gilded.He was the original Mister Sentimental.
Now, Alediran, Ms Fathomlin and Lord Karsus made me think that this wasn't doomed, as they pointed out that human and elven females are beautiful. Thank you. If different colored skin or things like horns turn you on, I suggest a succubus, by the way. Much more... tastier.
I'd place Artemis Entreri as NE: he kills people that he feels they deserve it-- but he does it for money too. Yet, he doesn't go on a killing rampage.
Now, don't post anything too interesting! I'm off for a few days on a quick vacation.
An 8 Charisma Elf woman looks like a 12 year old boy.
An 8 Charisma Orc woman looks like a Pro-Wrestler.
An 18 Charisma of each?
like I said, I stick by my rules.
An 8 Charisma Elf woman looks like a 12 year old boy.
An 8 Charisma Orc woman looks like a Pro-Wrestler.
An 18 Charisma of each?
Charisma's not got that much to do with looks. Hitler, who was an incredibly charismatic person, wasn't exactly good looking (He even made moustaches look silly!). Can any women verify this?
Charisma's not got that much to do with looks. Hitler, who was an incredibly charismatic person, wasn't exactly good looking (He even made moustaches look silly!). Can any women verify this?
It does in D&D.
For me, I don't bother with trying to justify the RL in D&D.
Only appearance is determined by Charisma, at least partially.
It does in D&D.
For me, I don't bother with trying to justify the RL in D&D.
Only appearance is determined by Charisma, at least partially.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness,
personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This
ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one
is perceived by others in a social setting.
Otherwise, why would a sorcerer's power be based on looks? Charisma's always been force of personality to me, with looks coming pretty far down on the list of what makes up a person's charisma. An example could be liches; they don't exactly look better after transformation, but they still get a charisma bonus.
Otherwise, why would a sorcerer's power be based on looks? Charisma's always been force of personality to me, with looks coming pretty far down on the list of what makes up a person's charisma. An example could be liches; they don't exactly look better after transformation, but they still get a charisma bonus.
It says Physical Attractiveness.
Honestly, I don't know what exactly you're trying to prove here.
An 18 Charisma Orc is physically beautiful.
It says Physical Attractiveness.
Honestly, I don't know what exactly you're trying to prove here.
An 18 Charisma Orc is physically beautiful.
But physical attractiveness isn't all on that list. Otherwise, how would you explain why creatures like dragons, like Stigger said, have high charisma?
But physical attractiveness isn't all on that list. Otherwise, how would you explain why creatures like dragons, like Stigger said, have high charisma?
Yeah, it still doesn't change an 18 Charisma dragon is a thing of terrible beauty.
But a 18 Charisma orc would probably be sexually atrractive as well.
Palpatine only became Emperor because he was trying to help people!
As for Charisma, I see it as a score that includes, but is not limited to, physical attractiveness. Attractiveness in general often goes because simply what a person looks like (that's where the aforementioned "force of personality" comes in).
Take Palpatine, for example. In addition to being a sweet man who was devoted to helping those less fortunate than he was, he was also profoundly charismatic.
Back to other things:
But a 18 Charisma orc would probably be sexually atrractive as well.
That's reasonably likely, but not necessarily so in the eyes of most or even all that many humans or any other race than orcs themselves.
I can assure you, no orc will ever be sexually attractive to me... green/gray skin just doesn't work for me, even when its attached to a twi'lek. :P :D
Much like a dragon or lich holds very little attraction. if i see either, i run. Fast.
But we're not gonna agree - i'm gonna continue with charisma involving strength of personality, natural leadership, persuasiveness and natural magnetism, and to a lesser extent, looks. Believe it was GD that suggested Comliness (SP?! That can't be right!) should be an ability, and i'm stickin' with that, mainly because i can't see a sorcerer being more powerful because of his looks.
And Palpatine was a nice ol' fellow. He defended humanity from walking carpets, aliens and robots. He roxXors.
That's reasonably likely, but not necessarily so in the eyes of most or even all that many humans.
Bluntly, I just disregard the idea of Elves being more attractive than Orcs by innate nature. I really love stomping on Elfophilia at my table.
Bluntly, I just disregard the idea of Elves being more attractive than Orcs by innate nature. I really love stomping on Elfophilia at my table.
But orcs have -2 Cha... And you're saying charisma is based on looks.
But orcs have -2 Cha... And you're saying charisma is based on looks.
Yeah and what about the Orcs with 16 Charisma for rolling an 18?
Are they automatically less attractive than 13 Charisma Elves?
Elves don't get a Charisma BONUS either.
Well I am but I think a -2 penalty doesn't mean its impossible for Orcs to be attractive.
Elves don't get a Charisma BONUS either.
Star Elves do.
Of course he is...
-That's bound to offend someone. ;)
People...
Palpatine only became Emperor because he was trying to help people!
-That's a little too rosy of looking at things. That he was a Sith who improperly applied the doctrine of the Sith, he was self-consumed and selfish, and did do the things he did for personal gain.
-Never once does a Sith portrayed in the movies lie, however. All while the Jedi do it all the time. Makes you think, eh?
To be precise, Palpatine had 19 Charisma...
-Mmm...Sexay!
-That's bound to offend someone. ;)
As a Catholic... Doesn't offend me at all ;p
You silly heathens think we're that easily provoked?
That just happened to be the smallest pic, but certainly not the best comparison...
Like I said, there are much better ones, and even a few sites just dedicated to the topic.
Some people are just wierd....
Now, about them Orcs...
Redeem what? They've always been the good guys. :P
Or did you think that breaking into their homes and stealing their stuff made the PCs the good guys?
-That's a little too rosy of looking at things. That he was a Sith who improperly applied the doctrine of the Sith, he was self-consumed and selfish, and did do the things he did for personal gain.
No, he didn't! He was the kindest and most gentle person in the whole Saga.
-Never once does a Sith portrayed in the movies lie, however. All while the Jedi do it all the time. Makes you think, eh?
Yes. Palpatine was a very honest person, in addition to being kind, wise and generous. He never ever told lies!
As a Catholic... Doesn't offend me at all ;p
You silly heathens think we're that easily provoked?
-Heathen? Why, I never! Goy! :P
Like I said, there are much better ones, and even a few sites just dedicated to the topic.
Some people are just wierd....
Now, about them Orcs...
-Yeah, that is just a wee bit odd...
No, he didn't! He was the kindest and most gentle person in the whole Saga
-Well, if you say so...
Yes. Palpatine was a very honest person, in addition to being kind, wise and generous. He never ever told lies!
-No, no he did not. Neither did Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, or Darth Vader. Hell, Count Dooku told Obi-Wan straight out, in Attack of the Clones, that there was a Sith Lord controling the Senate. Once you start delving through the Expanded Universe, however, and the definition of Sith becomes murky, among other things, this phenominon does not work. But, in the films, it does.
-No, no he did not. Neither did Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, or Darth Vader. Hell, Count Dooku told Obi-Wan straight out, in Attack of the Clones, that there was a Sith Lord controling the Senate.
They are all such great role models. Of course, how could they not be, if they followed a wonderful man like Palpatine?
That whole racist angle of his really put me off about his otherwise sterling character...
Oh? And what propaganda were you reading?
That whole racist angle of his really put me off about his otherwise sterling character...
The racism was a tool, nothing more. Palpatine could care less about race. By blaming aliens and other cultures, he created a unifying hatred that allowed him to solidify his political base while drawing the exact kind of cruel and ruthless people to his side he would need to rule.
Many of his minions were aliens such as bounty hunters, assassins, and jedi apprentices. The emperor was a master of more then just the force, including knowledge of Human nature.
Evil or not, the Emperor did exactly as he said he would, he brought peace to the universe. A cold, cruel, and brutal peace but peace none the less.
BTW, I haven't read pp. 2-7, so forgive me.
I don't really understand the motivation to make Orcs themselves non-evil, though. But, if I were to do so, I wouldn't settle on one factor. Make a sub-race within a culture that is starting to break past the old CE stereotypes. Meanwhile, CE would be still prominent but allow significant CN or NE drift. You could have a lot of fun with this, by having there be internal tension in this evolving orc society. Traditionalists and conservatives would be more bestial, less accepting of technology, and more likely to be evil. Progressives and reformers could be neutral or even lawful, with emphasis on a 'new order' and getting beyond cruel, tribal rituals. The progressive faction could use some human societies as a model.
Oh? And what propaganda were you reading?
The right sort... bunch of Sith apologists around here. :P
The right sort... bunch of Sith apologists around here. :P
-You just don't understand. :P
-I suggest you read the new Star Wars books, to learn what the idealistic Sith order is like. As I said earlier, Palpatine, and the other Sith, used their power in anger, and for self-gain. Not the Sith ideal.
He was an angry man...but angry only at injustice.
They would train them to become future Sith... they are not WASTEFUL like that.
Anakin wasn't Sith yet, so he was still an idiot... and a bad actor. :P
And Rinon, you are a woman after my own heart - I feel the same way about Dr. Doom for the same exact reasons. Did you know Latbveria is the only country in the world that has a 0% criime rate? He only wants to take over the world to make it a better place.
Oh, and in Marvel comics, Dr. Doom fought against the Nazis... but so did Magneto and Dracula. :D
Jedi Order FTW!
-The same Jedi Order that perpetuates that chaos that causes strife in the galaxy? Or that lies, cheats and kidnaps, to maintain their position in the galaxy?
They would train them to become future Sith... they are not WASTEFUL like that.
-Before the Jedi-Sith War, this would be especially true. But, since the order went into hiding, not so much.
Oh, and in Marvel comics, Dr. Doom fought against the Nazis... but so did Magneto and Dracula. :D
-Didn't know about Dracula, there.
And Rinon, you are a woman after my own heart - I feel the same way about Dr. Doom for the same exact reasons. Did you know Latbveria is the only country in the world that has a 0% criime rate? He only wants to take over the world to make it a better place.
That's amazing. Sounds like Dr. Doom took a page out of Palpatine's (holy!) book.
Jedi Order FTW!
Jedi propaganda!
Reckon the Spell Plague might be the Jedis' revenge for Order 66?
--Didn't know about Dracula, there.
There wan an issue of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos where they were seperated from their unit (weren't they always?) and were chased across the Translvanian border by the German army.
Nickolas Fury apologizes to the local count for intruding, explaining the situation with the Nazis. Count Dracula gets pissed the Germans would violate his country by invading like that, and sides with the Americans, and together they fight off the Nazis and chase them from Translvanian soil.
You find out in that issue that one of Sgt. Fury's men is actually the Grandson of Johnathan Harker, the famous Dr. Van Helsings assistant! He adamantly refuses to work with Count Dracula, even though he is ordered to by his superior.
Probably the only issue of Sgt. Fury I ever bought - it was pretty interesting for the Marvel Lore.
Stains of the Heart: When Sune died portions of her godblood got spread throughout the Realms, some of them wandered in the Weave and infected Gruumsh with some kind of godly curse. Sune's love was able to hurt Gruumsh's brutality and penetrated through his god powers. For years Gruumsh fought for it. His orc children were also affected, the love-blood of Sune taking out a portion of their chaotic ways, making them soft (but not that soft/still brutal but less brutal than before).
Evolution of the Orcs: The orcs have evolved, from too much usage of their brains in hard times (like the spellplague) their lifespan has heightened for 10 years and they have now become more able thinkers compared from before.
There wan an issue of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos where they were seperated from their unit (weren't they always?) and were chased across the Translvanian border by the German army.
Nickolas Fury apoliges to the local count for intruding, explaining the situation with the Nazis. Count Dracula gets pissed the Germans would violate his country by invading like that, and sides with the Americans, and together they fight off the Nazis and chase them from Translvanian soil.
You find out in that issue that one of Sgt. Fury's men is actually the Grandson of Johnathan Harker, the famous Dr. Van Helsings assistant! He adamantly refuses to work with Count Dracula, even though he is ordered to by his superior.
Probably the only issue of Sgt. Fury I ever bought - it was pretty interesting for the Marvel Lore.
Sounds cool.
-The same Jedi Order that perpetuates that chaos that causes strife in the galaxy? Or that lies, cheats and kidnaps, to maintain their position in the galaxy?
Sith propaganda, the Jedi Code clearly states the Jedi as Guardians of Peace.
There wan an issue of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos where they were seperated from their unit (weren't they always?) and were chased across the Translvanian border by the German army.
Nickolas Fury apoliges to the local count for intruding, explaining the situation with the Nazis. Count Dracula gets pissed the Germans would violate his country by invading like that, and sides with the Americans, and together they fight off the Nazis and chase them from Translvanian soil.
You find out in that issue that one of Sgt. Fury's men is actually the Grandson of Johnathan Harker, the famous Dr. Van Helsings assistant! He adamantly refuses to work with Count Dracula, even though he is ordered to by his superior.
-That is pretty cool.
Probably the only issue of Sgt. Fury I ever bought - it was pretty interesting for the Marvel Lore.
-You'd probably like Apocalypse vs. Dracula.
Stains of the Heart: When Sune died portions of her godblood got spread throughout the Realms, some of them wandered in the Weave and infected Gruumsh with some kind of godly curse. Sune's love was able to hurt Gruumsh's brutality and penetrated through his god powers. For years Gruumsh fought for it. His orc children were also affected, the love-blood of Sune taking out a portion of their chaotic ways, making them soft (but not that soft/still brutal but less brutal than before).
-Sune did not die, and the Weave no longer exists. I'm assuming we're talking about canon here.
Sith propaganda, the Jedi Code clearly states the Jedi as Guardians of Peace.
-Watch the movies, and see for yourself. Qui-Gon quite clearly cheats Watto out of his property, without compensating him or anything. Just one example.
Another contribution for this justly thread....yay!!
Stains of the Heart: When Sune died portions of her godblood got spread throughout the Realms, some of them wandered in the Weave and infected Gruumsh with some kind of godly curse. Sune's love was able to hurt Gruumsh's brutality and penetrated through his god powers. For years Gruumsh fought for it. His orc children were also affected, the love-blood of Sune taking out a portion of their chaotic ways, making them soft (but not that soft/still brutal but less brutal than before).
Evolution of the Orcs: The orcs have evolved, from too much usage of their brains in hard times (like the spellplague) their lifespan has heightened for 10 years and they have now become more able thinkers compared from before.
Don't like it, sorry--I prefer Sune being alive.
-Watch the movies, and see for yourself. Qui-Gon quite clearly cheats Watto out of his property, without compensating him or anything. Just one example.
There is nothing in the Jedi Code against that. Qui-Gon did it because the Greater Good of the Galaxy was benefited by that small act. And Qui-Gon never cheated Watto, he lost because Anakin raced well, no ammount of manipulation could change the fact that Watto had to pay Qui-Gon because he lost the bet.
There is nothing in the Jedi Code against that.
-Ah, so the Jedi condone cheating and kidnapping. The truth comes out.
And Qui-Gon never cheated Watto, he lost because Anakin raced well, no ammount of manipulation could change the fact that Watto had to pay Qui-Gon because he lost the bet.
-Had Qui-Gon not used the Force to control the face the die landed on, Qui-Gon would have lost the bet, and would not have been able to take Anakin from Watto.
-Ah, so the Jedi condone cheating and kidnapping. The truth comes out.
Cheating only when it serves a higher purpose, not to aquire power, money and influences. Kidnapping not at all.
-Had Qui-Gon not used the Force to control the face the die landed on, Qui-Gon would have lost the bet, and would not have been able to take Anakin from Watto.
He would have still lost everything, only the freed slave would've changed, therefore who was freed doesn't matters, Anakin earned his freedom and the engine parts.
Kidnapping not at all.
-How do you think the Jedi Order replenished their ranks, during the days of the Old Republic? You think parents oftentimes randomly allowed their babies to be taken away. There was a very poignant Star Wars Republic/Dark Times (Can't remember which one) story arc about that.
He would have still lost everything, only the freed slave would've changed, therefore who was freed doesn't matters, Anakin earned his freedom and the engine parts.
-Point is, Qui-Gon would have lost the bet, had he not used the Force to alter the results of the die roll. Anakin would not have been included in the deal. Only the engine parts. Modifying the die roll is cheating, is dishonest, is illegal...
-How do you think the Jedi Order replenished their ranks, during the days of the Old Republic? You think parents oftentimes randomly allowed their babies to be taken away. There was a very poignant Star Wars Republic/Dark Times (Can't remember which one) story arc about that.
I know of at least one Parent glad the Jedi took her daughter because she though her daughter had too much potential to be a simple explorer.
-Point is, Qui-Gon would have lost the bet, had he not used the Force to alter the results of the die roll. Anakin would not have been included in the deal. Only the engine parts. Modifying the die roll is cheating, is dishonest, is illegal...
One slave became part of the bet, Watto threw the die after agreeing that one Slave would became Qui-Gon's property if he was the winner to see which one of the two was to be traded. Watto agreed with that bet. Therefore Watto was the only one guilty of loosing a slave.
I know of at least one Parent glad the Jedi took her daughter because she though her daughter had too much potential to be a simple explorer.
-And the Countess of Serenno had her child "forced" away from her. And, do you know who this child was?
One slave became part of the bet, Watto threw the die after agreeing that one Slave would became Qui-Gon's property if he was the winner to see which one of the two was to be traded. Watto agreed with that bet. Therefore Watto was the only one guilty of loosing a slave.
-You are completely ignoring the fact that Qui-Gon used the Force to influence the die roll- cheating, and being dishonest- such that he could not lose, and Watto could not help losing. Stop making excuses and tangents, and being a Jedi apologist. Admit it. What he did was illegal, and especially wrong for a Jedi, the self-appointed guardians of the Old Republic. The Old Republic could not have helped itself from crumbling, when the Jedi themselves casually ignore the laws the government is built upon.
-And the Countess of Serenno had her child "forced" away from her. And, do you know who this child was?
Not familiar with that.
-You are completely ignoring the fact that Qui-Gon used the Force to influence the die roll- cheating, and being dishonest- such that he could not lose, and Watto could not help losing.
The die roll was to see if it was Anakin or Shmi the slave that went to the bet Watto legally accepted.
Stop making excuses and tangents, and being a Jedi apologist. Admit it. What he did was illegal, and especially wrong for a Jedi, the self-appointed guardians of the Old Republic.
It's not wrong, because thank's to Qui-Gon's "cheating" Luke and Leia were able to exist, probably the 2 most important members of the Rebel Alliance. And Anakin was able to fullfill the prophecy that brought balance to the Force (latter aditions don't count as "Force wasn't balanced"). And there is no part in the Jedi Code that prohibits what Qui-Gon did.
What's more, Paplatine could've found Anakin and trained as a Sith and would have recurred to assasination to get Anakin from Watto, therefore making Anakin's redemption impossible. Thank's to Qui-Gon's actions the seed of redemption was planted in Anakin. He was one of the greatest Jedi in the history of the order.
The Old Republic could not have helped itself from crumbling, when the Jedi themselves casually ignore the laws the government is built upon.
The Republic crumbled thanks to the Siths that attacked it, and even with Sith attacks it was restored time and time again.
They would be CG or even CN in D&D - they each operate on their own within the broad-reaching goals of the Jedi Order (very much like the Harpers).
On the other hand, the Sith are mostly LN - the ultimate Tyrant isn't about good or evil, just about order and dicipline. You have your 'bad seeds' (LE), but they are mostly about Law, and would be excellent followers of Bane in FR (or Core, nowadays).
There is nothing inherently evil about Tyranny - haven't you guys ever heard of the 'Enlightened Despots'? If you are protecting your people, making sure they eat and are clothed, have shelter, etc... sometimes certain 'sacrifices' have to made for the greater good.
I'm not saying I follow that particular code of ethics, but I wouldn't necessarily call it evil either. It really is a matter of opinion, what is evil and what is not.
And besides, Palpatine is such a Cutey - obviously some Orc blood in there somewhere. :D
Don't like it, sorry--I prefer Sune being alive.
Okay, who started the rumor about Shar killing Sune? :angry:
To be honest, I really do think the Sith are right in a lot of respects... or at least somewhat more tolerable to my own tastes, but I think both are too extreme and that what's really needed is a middle ground that draws from both traditions without becoming twisted. If we're going to be frank, I'd hate to live in a world where either one of them was 'in charge' of things.
Actually, I tend to view the Jedi as a little too nice to be honest. They're a bunch of Clerics/Monks/Paladins who forego rulership despite the fact that they have Farseeing and supernatural hotline to god because they believe in humility. They believe in making logical and rational decisions not motivated by passion but weighing evidence plus mystical insight from again, Space God (Force).
The Sith, on the other hand, are classic stereotypical evil. They believe in survival of the fittest, specifically them, and the creation of a massive theocracy where they're the rulers of their fascist underlings who may or may not have a place in their dominion. They deliberately torture themselves and their underlings to get bigger emotional highs like drug addicts as well.
I think anyone who tries to look for moral ambiguity in their relationship is missing the point. Jedi are my definition of Lawful good while I use Sith across the LE/NE/CE spectrum.
All depends on how you look at it... though I wouldn't call the Jedi nice, though naive comes to mind, along with horribly sheltered, and far too isolated. Very, very, very few people can function in a state of altruism as the Jedi seem to expect, and sooner or later, most are just going to fail. Sith don't even bother with the pretense, so come across as the far more realistic, or at least pragmatic approach to the Force. Really though, I'd agree with Boba Fett when he said something to the effect that the galaxy would be better off if both factions went away... ;)
Meh, I prefer the simple POV that even the least Jedi is smarter than you. No matter how intelligent, capable, or world-wise you are....you're not going to remotely approach him on his worst day. Han Solo is a wonderful guy but he's an ignorant hick and every time he tries to advise Obi Wan Kenobi, it just goes to show he's....an ignorant hick.
Really, the galaxy is filled with a bunch of trained monkeys and the Jedi Knights are the zookeepers. There's no way that a 20,000 year Republic could function in relative peace and security without the Jedi Knights but it can and will so long as they exist.
From this viewpoint, anything Boba Fett the cowardly murderer has to say are...less than pleasant. Of course, I don't much care for authors trying to portray the Jedi as "The Man" because to me it only makes me think LESS OF THEM rather than the Jedi.
It's a matter of flavor though.
Okay, who started the rumor about Shar killing Sune? :angry:
-Don't know, but I, for one, have never heard this rumor.
Actually...
-Yet again, I agree very little with what Charles thinks. Stigger, more or less, has similar viewpoints as mine.
-Yet again, I agree very little with what Charles thinks. Stigger, more or less, has similar viewpoints as mine.
I view Star Wars from the non-deconstructionalist viewpoint. Jedi are heroes, Sith are villains, and Democracy is the best form of government for the Galaxy Far Far Away.
Likewise, Superman isn't corny. Batman isn't a murderous psychopath. Wonder Woman is a warrior for peace.
Call it playing a horde of Paladins but I don't really see a problem with "What's so Funny about Truth, Justice, and the Cormyr way."
I view Star Wars from the non-deconstructionalist viewpoint. Jedi are heroes, Sith are villains, and Democracy is the best form of government for the Galaxy Far Far Away.
-And, that's how George Lucas intended the movies, I am sure. But, I, and many other people, don't stop after I/we take a step. I/We continue walking.
-And, that's how George Lucas intended the movies, I am sure. But, I, and many other people, don't stop after I/we take a step. I/We continue walking.
*shrug*
For me, the Jedi have a very personal and emotional importance growing up as role models. I'm not going to abandon that. I also don't think that morality plays should be sullied by introducing artificial ambiguity.
Your mileage may vary.
Your mileage may vary.
-Indeed.
Hence this thread.
Overall, bringing this back to the Orcs. Basically, I like the idea of evil religions and organizations but I'm less really keen about "evil races" to be perfectly honest and that's why I'm honestly thinking about changing the role of Orcs from mindless canon fodder in my games.
Hence this thread.
-So, you're fine with Jedi being stereotypically "Good, Period", and Sith being stereotypically "Evil, Period", but Orcs not stereotypically being "Evil, Period"? Why?
-So, you're fine with Jedi being stereotypically "Good, Period", and Sith being stereotypically "Evil, Period", but Orcs not stereotypically being "Evil, Period"? Why?
I think it's primarilly because of the fact that I think it undermines the role of Undead and Demonspawn in my games. Both are absolutely, thoroughly, and unimaginably evil in my game. I've made it a rule in my game that there's no such thing as Good Undead and that all Undead that are good are Non-Canon (with the constantly tearful struggles of Jander Sunstar being a CN case).
They're supernatural evils.
Orcs, on the other hand, are just mortals and they have no Saruman like Origin or Morgoth breaking behind them to transform them into the terrifying figures of Hate/Murder/****/Kill that Meldread favors. I think there's more stories to be told with a bunch of brutal savages and barbarians than there are to be with a race of Always Chaotic Evil types.
Frankly, Orcs are just too similar to humans to be pure evil.
As for Sith and Jedi?
* Sith are Blackguards and Evil Clerics.
* Jedi are Paladins and Good Clerics.
You can pretty much just adapt them As-Is by making Jedi into a religious order of Lathander and Mystra and the Sith into a religious order of Bane or Shar.
Hell, Darth Vader (LE Human Male/Iron Golem 2nd level 18th level Blackguard of Bane) and Palpatine? (CE Human Male 2nd Level Aristocrat/Cleric of Shar 20)
Though in some respects, I can agree that orcs shouldn't be mandatorily evil... but the worship of Grumpy and Co. do push them heavily in that direction. Take that away, as in the case of the Odonti or those fellows in Thesk, and you get a very different story out of them. Really, most deities, with a few obvious exceptions, would be an improvement over their own pantheon.
Palpatine wasn't nearly nihlistic enough to be a Shar worshipper... he's more my idea of Bane's golden boy in a way that Fzoul can only fantasize about.
Though in some respects, I can agree that orcs shouldn't be mandatorily evil... but the worship of Grumpy and Co. do push them heavily in that direction. Take that away, as in the case of the Odonti or those fellows in Thesk, and you get a very different story out of them. Really, most deities, with a few obvious exceptions, would be an improvement over their own pantheon.
1. I accept Dark Empire as canon. Palpatine wanted to cover the universe in eternal misery, darkness, and despair of the Dark Side. Then he'd rule as a Force God over a broken, beaten, and shattered populous trapped in an eternal horrror.
Vader was a fascist. Palpatine was a galaxy class sadist and religious fanatic. In the end, I imagine Palpatine though Vader was unhealthilly focused on Law and order. Seriously, Palpatine would probably encourage crime and rebellion because it meant it was easier to justify crushing oppression.
2. Ultimately, it depends greatly on how you portray the gods of evil. Just because Gruumsh is Chaotic/Lawful Evil doesn't necessarilly mean that his followers are going to be automatically a bunch of baby eaters. For me, I've always preferred a Orcish Bane/Malar hybrid concept for Gruumsh.
But good point.
For me, I don't necessarilly want to see an Orcish society that's purely good and flowers or even morally equal to human beings. I have no difficulty with Orcs, for the most part, being a race of brutal thugs but I tend to think that "redemption" certainly would qualify as a monikor for the idea that the race would not necessarilly be PURE evil anymore than Elves are treated as Pure Good.
I guess I'm interested in portraying an Orcish race where Gruumsh is treated somewhat like Tempus. He's a god that they worship and encourages brutality and conquest. However, the majority of Orc concerns are gold and getting the typical meat/plunder that is the daily adventurers' diet.
Like we have plenty of Evil Elves, it's not a problem to have Good Orcs. Orcs may have a bad reputation or are treated with prejudice but I think it'd be cool to have them walking down the seedier sides of waterdeep. You can hire them for mercenaries and on ship crews just like normal people with just a worse chance of them being pirates.
Get what I'm saying?
As to Grumpy being like Tempus... I have a hard time with that point of view. The whole Genocide against pretty much everyone who isn't an orc philosophy of his kinda makes it hard for me to see him as a simple, misunderstood brute by any but the most apologistic and just plain screwed up definitions. Were it simply a matter of conquest, then I could see it, but from what we know of his actual dogma, his teachings don't stop at mere conquest, and move firmly into the realm of regular atrocity.
The only way I see it working is if the orcs moved more towards the secular, and put less interest in the divine and the spellcasters that come with it, barring the idea of finding themselves a new pantheon to follow. I really don't see an incentive for them to abandon Gruumsh, or for Gruumsh to change his dogma to something more compatible with civilized society. The idea of the orcs deserving to rule the world by proving themselves through strength and slaughter just doesn't work with them integrating into any other cultures. So, I guess, for me anyway, I just can't see them having any reason to even attempt to 'civilize' themselves so long as Grumpy and Co. are worshipped by them on a large scale... with him in place, I see far too much cultural inertia to be overcome for it to work.
1. I accept Dark Empire as canon. Palpatine wanted to cover the universe in eternal misery, darkness, and despair of the Dark Side. Then he'd rule as a Force God over a broken, beaten, and shattered populous trapped in an eternal horrror.
-As I have stated, Palpatine wasn't a "True Sith", in the sense of what the order, idealistically, represents. Palpatine used the power of "the dark side" for personal gain and all of that. Not what the "true Sith" does. The most recent example of a "true Sith" is Darth Caedus. Notice the differences between his execution of things, and Palpatine's. Note, however, that the most recent novel (or second-most recent, actually) has begun to unravel this.
Like we have plenty of Evil Elves, it's not a problem to have Good Orcs. Orcs may have a bad reputation or are treated with prejudice but I think it'd be cool to have them walking down the seedier sides of waterdeep.
-This stems from a creation mythos where Orcs are supposed to kill everything that is not an Orc. This makes it much easier to justify the 'Nature, not Nurture' argument, concerning Orcs.
Never thought DE I & DE II weren't canon for Star Wars.
-They are. Unless specifcally stated, all products- video games, RPG supplements, books, and so on- are canon.
-As I have stated, Palpatine wasn't a "True Sith", in the sense of what the order, idealistically, represents. Palpatine used the power of "the dark side" for personal gain and all of that. Not what the "true Sith" does. The most recent example of a "true Sith" is Darth Caedus. Notice the differences between his execution of things, and Palpatine's. Note, however, that the most recent novel (or second-most recent, actually) has begun to unravel this.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
—The Sith Code
A True Sith recognizes that Law and Order are artificial impediments to enslave mankind. To that fact a True Sith is obligated to recognize no authority above himself. Indeed, arguably, a Sith must by nature set himself to destroying all authority in the galaxy. Even a Sith's own master is ultimately someone that he must destory for freedom is the ultimate goal of all Sith. This freedom includes freedom from all moral restraints. A Sith must be willing and able to do harm to the innocent and the helpless because that hesitance is ultimately one of the chains he must break.
Furthermore, a Sith can only strengthen the galaxy by inflicting pitiless oppression and horror upon the masses. If they deserved anything less then they would rise up and destroy the Sith as is the way of nature.
Of course, then you have abberations like Darth Vader, Darth Krayt, and Darth Revan or Darth Caedus. Bluntly, they fail to realize the nature of the Sith Code and think they should help people. In truth, a total anarchy is the ideal state for producing the best Sith in the world but the weak will naturally gravitate to being slaves of the strong.
You can see why I tend to view The Sith in the manner of Chaotic Evil as an ideal.
Honestly, I blame the fact that all of the above were ex-Jedi that they felt an insipid devotion to mankind that the Sith would deride as weakness.
-This stems from a creation mythos where Orcs are supposed to kill everything that is not an Orc. This makes it much easier to justify the 'Nature, not Nurture' argument, concerning Orcs.
Eh, I take Gruumsh's view that Orcs are meant to conquer and enslave but not destroy....except for elves.
It's all about the land in the end.
As to Grumpy's views... from what I recall of his dogma, conquest and destruction are essentially synonomous for him and his followers. And even with the enslavement bit, which I honestly don't recall being in there really, that's still essentially a destructive act, even if perhaps not on a physical level.
Cheating only when it serves a higher purpose, not to aquire power, money and influences. Kidnapping not at all.
And Palpatine never indulged in any of that. His record is CLEAN!
On the other hand, the Sith are mostly LN - the ultimate Tyrant isn't about good or evil, just about order and dicipline. You have your 'bad seeds' (LE), but they are mostly about Law, and would be excellent followers of Bane in FR (or Core, nowadays).
Actually, I'd have to peg Palpatine as LG (at least!). The man was an angel, pure and simple.
Gruumsh's big plan:
-Orcs love to die in battle
-Orcs love to kill
-Orcs love to live
-Orcs love to rule
I don't see any reason why Gruumsh should change his dogma for the better of orcs. Ever wonder what happens when a god hastily changes his dogma? Get's kicked out of the pantheon (like Cyric).
Okay, so the orcs become more civilized and less evil, but that don't mean that they still don't like to kill eves, dwarves, rule, torture and many more things. They just become more powerful that is, they are adapting to the battlefield that is FR. Creating kingdoms and nations of their own to multiply their power for onslaught. And humans, elves and dwarves can't do anything about it. That is one of their disadvantages to the orcs. When Dark Arrow was created Alustriel and the Northern forces didn't do anything to hinder it's growth because they don't like to die in battle, and they don't like to kill something that doesn't want to fight.
Try to imagine Cormyr, the Obarskyrs started out as nothing more than a friendly farm ON ELVEN TERRITORY, then soon after that, they became a kingdom more powerful than ever that could kick the rightful elven rulers' asses out of their forest for good. Did the elves destroy Cormyr a thousand years ago? No, they didn't, but they could if they did (what stopped them from doing so?)....Can the elves destroy Cormyr now? I don't think so...I mean comeon, one elf guy even kicked the ass of a purple dragon (I think his name was Thanos something). the humans were so weak during the old times, a thousand ears after that they are more powerful than the elves.
Similar to the orcs, pretty soon orc kingdoms will grow up and become nations more powerful, that they could overcome even Silvermoon, Cormyr, Waterdeep, etc.
Yeah, I think that is one of Gruumsh's biggest plans.
And for the record, Gruumsh is not stupid. Orcs aren't stupid, they are an indigenous folk who are uneducated and lacked cognitive skills due to little use. If you set Obould as an example, he was more cunning than any dwarf you have ever known, I'm sure everyone was surprised how he formed the peace treaty, even the drow and the Northern powers.
-We sure seem to have different takes on the principles of the Sith...
I thought that was obvious. For me, I like the dictonomy that the Jedi promote Peace and order while the Sith promote Chaos.
Furthermore, the ancient Sith Lords were very much creatures of law and order and even a twisted sense of honor. They followed formulaic traditions to the letter and Naga Sadow was considered reckless for his naked ambition and desire for change.
And Palpatine definetely didn't desire destruction, misery and chaos for their own sake: he intended to assimilate every single sentience into him, becoming something akin a hive mind or a god. That would, rather obviously, make laws unneeded, since there is only Palpatine, but that's a far cry from misery and chaos for their own sake.
The Sith use "Chaos" as a curse, so I don't think they're anarchists
Chaos is also the Star Wars equivalent of Hell, which is where the Sith go when they die.
And basically, I'm going from Palpatine's own writings and the Sith Code. Effectively, the Sith aren't anarchists but they do have very much a belief that laws exist for lesser men than they. Plus, you also have Dark Lord's brief description of Plagueis plus Darth Maul's final test. In order to be a Sith Lord you must actually HATE your master because any feeling towards anything is an enemy of the Sith.
It's very much a pseudo-Kant vs. a pseudo-Frederick N. A good parable I had was that Jedi help others, Sith tell people to help themselves.
Though I very much agree that Gruumsh has absolutely no reason to change his dogma, and the orcs very little incentive to change their ways, unless you look at it from a human perspective... one man's hell is another man's paradise, so to speak.
As to the Sith stuff, I don't think I ever got the impression that Chaos was synonomous with Hell...
As to the Sith stuff, I don't think I ever got the impression that Chaos was synonomous with Hell...
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos
But yes, I doubt that a lot of authors who write the Sith use my interpretation of Sith philosophy. I don't think there was an organized Sith philosophy until KOTOR. But it seems to me to be a pretty good way of doing it. I figure the Sith favor a very Babylon 5 Shadows view of the world.
I.e. The Weak deserve to be exploited and crushed by the strong.
And what's wrong with that?
I think any view that has the Sith having anything but pure selfishness as their goal sort of defeats their philosophy.
As to the Weak deserving to be exploited and crushed, as a concept I could see it working for them. However, I think it misses the idea that there are more of the weak than the strong, and that when the weak combine their power, they can overwhelm even the strongest, so you must learn to use means other than strength to overcome them... that's where the lawful aspect comes in to play. If you're looking at things from a CE perspective, you're just not going to appreciate that nuance to the code, and are going to end up dead sooner or later, probably sooner.
Can't stand Babylon 5, so couldn't speak to that point as I never watched it...
Fair enough,
I just always felt it was Palpatine's giant joke on the Empire. Basically, the Empire believes Palpatine wants to establish a military tyranny over the universe that people will suffer tremendously under but ultimately be the best for LAW and ORDER. Vader certainly believes in it.
Palpatine, though, serves the DEVIL.
He exists to foster dischord, chaos, and atrocities before he gets power from it. That's why Palpatine has a military doctrine to blow up a planet of Pacifists despite them being utterly non-dangerous. Furthermore, if the Empire ever became too stable then he'd have people looking to usurp him because they'd realize that the Sith aren't in step with the Empire's principles (which happened a few times in the EU, including the TIE fighter video game).
So, the Empire unknowingly finds Palpatine conducting Stalinist purges and atrocities just to distract the Empire to his latest consolidation of power/justify the next wave of purges.
But a good debate over all and I appreciate your offering a different perspective.
Chaos is also the Star Wars equivalent of Hell, which is where the Sith go when they die.
Not Palpatine.
*looks up at the clouds, towards Heaven...*
If there truly is a god up there, I hope he's just like Palpatine.
Palpatine, though, serves the DEVIL.
So, the Empire unknowingly finds Palpatine conducting Stalinist purges and atrocities just to distract the Empire to his latest consolidation of power/justify the next wave of purges.
Oh? And what propaganda have you been reading?
Oh? And what propaganda have you been reading?
Nothing.
THE EMPIRE LOVES YOU.
...and Democracy is the best form of government for the Galaxy Far Far Away.
This made my day, thank you.
I agree with your thought that Orcs shouldn't always be evil, and your reasoning that there are a lot of evil Elves, though the race tends towards good. Creyzi also made a very good point that they're a indigenous people that are uneducated. The same nature could be lain at the feet of the Apache or Comanche who vehemently opposed the European's march westward. I'm sure the Europeans saw them as evil, while the native people saw their actions as nothing less then necessary.
The only thing I don't see happening is Gruumsh changing. This is a greater god, he's not going to have a change of heart one day regardless of what happens around him. That's equivalent to Palpatine turning around one day and saying, "You know, I'm going about this the wrong way. Let's get flowers and everyone be happy." That is not going to happen...ever. Besides, Gruumsh's change would require another god to step up and become the god of Slaughter/chaos/destruction.
You said yourself that you view Gruumsh as ancient, cunningly, and evil; he should remain that way. Use another member of the Orc Pantheon to bring about an Orcish revolution. Ilneval could become a Lawful neutral god of fighters and Orogs, who don't head straight for meaningless slaughter like their surface Orc cousins. He could be their version of Anhur from the Mulhorandi Pantheon.
Another idea is Luthic could turn away from Gruumsh and become the Mother of all Orc Kind and promote guardianship and family among Orcs; the same way Eilistraee promotes peace among Drow. She could help empower the females of her race with clerical and healing powers, that leads their race to greater balance and neutrality.
A thought I had was the huge number of semi-civilized Orcs in Thesk and Half-Orcs in Palischuk of Vaasa cause subtle changes in the Orc pantheon.
Obviously I support an Ilneval rebellion. Both Gruumsh and Ilneval are warriors, and Orcs are a warrior race. Having the two on opposite ends of the spectrum would create a sort of balance and the Orcs without losing their warrior ways.
I guess my view was that while Gruumsh is an evil god and encourges evil elements, I suppose I figured that he was also a God that was more concerned about the Orcs becoming powerful and terrible than he was about them necessarilly destroying the elves TODAY.
Thus, for awhile, Gruumsh would be happy to encourage peaceful relationships with humans and other humanoid races. Because, eventually, they will be bred out or the Orcs will use them to crush the Elves.
But some very good suggestions there.
This has nothing what-so-ever to do with good and evil - wanting to rule the galaxy wiith an iron fist in order to make it a better place is 100% LN. Everyone gets fed, everyone has a place to live, everyone works... and there is ZERO tolerance for people who do not follow the rules.
Just like Monks in D&D have to be lawful, so to would a Sith - his training is all about dicipline and mastering powerful abilities. You see someone acting Chaotic, and you got yourself a farm-boy like Luke Skywalker, not a Sith.
Can't stand Babylon 5, so couldn't speak to that point as I never watched it...
Another thing we agree on. :D
Checov's a traitor.
The Sith are about dicpline and control - I see almost PURE law in their actions, The Jedi, on the other hand, are all about Free Will, which is PURE chaos, IMHO.
They're also about unleashing hatred and rage amongst other unrestrained passions. A Sith utterly rejects anything that holds in his emotions. If a Sith wants something, he takes it. He may master his emotions and feelings but only to the point that he breaks down barriers on his power.
Honestly, Alignment breaks down in any description of a philosophy beyond broad strokes. I name Sith chaotic because they obey no code or authority but themselves.
This has nothing what-so-ever to do with good and evil - wanting to rule the galaxy wiith an iron fist in order to make it a better place is 100% LN. Everyone gets fed, everyone has a place to live, everyone works... and there is ZERO tolerance for people who do not follow the rules.
You think this is a Sith view?
Well, I guess I just tend to think Darth Vader's viewpoint in ESB works better as an abberation. I don't think the Jedi and Sith should really be just different strokes but more opposites in their viewpoints.
I tend to feel the Sith are diminished as villains if they're not the absolute MOST EVIL beings in the UNIVERSE. Also, I think the philosophy of "Chaos and Torture make you stronger" works just as philosophically well as "Humans need a firm hand."
What would be the point? Where is the gain? Thats not a Villain, thats Sociopath!
Thats why I never liked Shar as a villain - whats her motivation? To end everything that gives her a reason to exist? Is she in that much pain?
And just because I haven't posted one in awhile...
I never could understand villains that were about destroying the world/universe/whatever.
What would be the point? Where is the gain? Thats not a Villain, thats Sociopath!
Thats why I never liked Shar as a villain - whats her motivation? To end everything that gives her a reason to exist? Is she in that much pain?
And just because I haven't posted one in awhile...
Normally, it doesn't make sense.
Except, the Sith draw their power from the Dark Side. Thus, the more pain and suffering there is in the universe then the stronger they get. Darth Bane murdered a bunch of children in order to heal himself because their agony increased his strength.
Also, the Sith teach that effectively human beings are better off if they're in a constant state of conflict. My B5 reference was that the prevelant "Sufficiently Advanced" aliens that were the villains of the piece...
Show
Were actually encouraging massive war and carnage amongst humans by supplying us with technology while nurturing our worst impulses, because they believed it was the best way to encourage technological and societal growth.
Were actually encouraging massive war and carnage amongst humans by supplying us with technology while nurturing our worst impulses, because they believed it was the best way to encourage technological and societal growth.
No idea where the whole Devil thing is coming from though... :P
And I don't really care for Star Trek much either... TNG wasn't bad, but towards the end all that borg crap just bored the living hells out of me.
No idea where the whole Devil thing is coming from though...
....
The Dark Side?
You know, diametrically opposed forces. Like Eru vs. Morgoth.
But yes, good points.
Not really fond of mixing judeo-christian concepts with SW myself, but if it makes you happy, then go for it. Thinking about it though, I'm not really keen on the idea of diametric opposition in anything...
The Devil is just a short hand for it.
But it's Star Wars. It is actually more diametric opposition than Christianity. Christianity has the Devil really play a very minor role in it. Star Wars is Zoroastrian.
I.e. Two sides, reasonably equal. Slugging it out for control of the cosmos.
Not even the Lord of the Rings makes it so abundantly Light vs. Dark (which is actually where the stereotype comes from)
-Hell, when you look at something, you often see whatever it is you want to see in it. Case in point, the Lord of the Rings. Even though Tolkien has stated before that he wrote the novels without any particular symbolism in mind, and all of that, it doesn't take any particular effort to extrapolate symbolism from various parts of the book- from war to preserving nature to human nature.
-Star Wars is, admittedly by George Lucas, more of a fusion of Buddhist/Toaist ideas and concepts than anything else. This is why the "Star Wars and Buddhism" book is thicker than the "Star Wars and Christianity" book- there's a lot more to work with, with the latter than the former. There are elements of both, though, undoubtedly.
-Hell, when you look at something, you often see whatever it is you want to see in it. Case in point, the Lord of the Rings. Even though Tolkien has stated before that he wrote the novels without any particular symbolism in mind, and all of that, it doesn't take any particular effort to extrapolate symbolism from various parts of the book- from war to preserving nature to human nature.
Yeah and I don't disagree with any of this.
Nevertheless, Star Wars is the most explicitly total good vs. total evil Story out there known to popular culture. George Lucas stole liberally from Kurasawa, WW2 movies, Flash Gordon, and plenty of other sources. The Jedi being a combination of Samurai, Old West Gunman, and Knights Templar.
Which doesn't change it's about Light vs. Dark. Good vs. Evil. The Two Sides of the Force battling for Control of the Cosmos (which resembles nothing in any real world religion because he fused the incompatible doctrines of Buddhism/Taoism with Judeo-Christianity)
The Sith exists to promote the Dark Side (evil) and the Jedi good.
What am I missing here?
What am I missing here?
-The fact that the concepts of "Light Side" and "Dark Side" are fallacies, that Jedi and Sith doctrines have that nature of the Force wrong, and that there exists only the Unifying Force.
As to the LotR reference... the idea of Light vs. Dark is far older than that series, and goes back to the earliest deific tales and hero sagas... kinda boring if our great hero is only battling boredom and a bunch of weenies from over there... sounds much better when he's beating on some Elder Evil from beyond.
On the whole though, I still generally disagree with the entire concept of diametric opposition, at least as most conceive it. Then again, I'm also the sort of person who sees apathy being in opposition to both good and evil, moreso than good and evil are opposed to each other.
-The fact that the concepts of "Light Side" and "Dark Side" are fallacies, that Jedi and Sith doctrines have that nature of the Force wrong, and that there exists only the Unifying Force.
Mathew Stover is a god. He wrote Traitor which changed everything then wrote Shatterpoint which showed that everything Jacen Solo learned was explicitly wrong.
But yes, Light and Dark All the way baby.
Mathew Stover is a god. He wrote Traitor which changed everything then wrote Shatterpoint which showed that everything Jacen Solo learned was explicitly wrong.
-Which doesn't reverse anything, mind you. Traitor is lauded as one of the best Star Wars novels, for exactly what it introduced.
But yes, Light and Dark All the way baby.
:thumbsdow
Elements of, sure, that's inescapable really as an influence. But the idea of some supernatural entity of pure and utter evil secretly controlling everything (or good for that matter) just doesn't work in my head for Star Wars, regardless of its source in Christianity or Zoroastrianism (which is pretty much a proto-monotheistic religion itself, so I personally tend to lump it with the other 'big three' monotheistic traditions). I'd probably disagree with the 'minor' role of 'the devil' in Christianity in some respects, but in terms of 'power', I'd agree that it is inferior to God's from the start with Christianity.
As to the LotR reference... the idea of Light vs. Dark is far older than that series, and goes back to the earliest deific tales and hero sagas... kinda boring if our great hero is only battling boredom and a bunch of weenies from over there... sounds much better when he's beating on some Elder Evil from beyond.
On the whole though, I still generally disagree with the entire concept of diametric opposition, at least as most conceive it. Then again, I'm also the sort of person who sees apathy being in opposition to both good and evil, moreso than good and evil are opposed to each other.
Well Star Wars is pantheist. So, it has the benefit of there being an All-Powerful God (Brahma more than YHVS if you want to compare him to anything) but also Free will because Human beings are part of God and their disposition influences the Force just like the reverse. Or as Obi Wan Kenobi put it so succiently.
"It controls your Actions?"
"Partially, but it also obeys your command."
I'm an Episcopalian in RL but Star Wars is something very different from that, I'm aware of. It actually might have some Hindu elements arguably if you want to include what the EU has. I'm not trying to push an RL agenda anymore than I am trying to insist that the Lifestream from FFVII (People despise that too here?) is similiar to the Force.
I also don't dispute that there's only One Force in Star Wars. It's just that its the Super-Ego of the Universe's Collective Life ForceTM fighting against the Shadow of Freud. Whether their sentient or not in any real measurable sense is a hotly debated topic in Star Wars but I tend to think that misses the point that the Force is everything so any real mind to it is going to be an alien one.
The Force really can't fight itself. However, it certainly influences itself through the actions of the people within it.
All the Evil in Star Wars (Jabba, Tarkin, the Empire) serves the Dark Side for it's petty and human reasons. Likewise, the Sith serve the Dark Side for far more grandiose and nightmarish religious reasons (evil for its own sake plus the benefits they reap from it). While the Jedi serve the Light Side of the Force for their abstract and altruistic reasons with the Rebellion serving good for THEIR petty and human reasons.
One could argue Michael Moorcock would approve of the eternal struggle of the two opposing forces providing meaning but it's pretty explictly Good vs. Evil as opposed to neutrality being a valid option (neutral people like Han Solo or Uncle Owen just basically come off as fools).
-Which doesn't reverse anything, mind you. Traitor is lauded as one of the best Star Wars novels, for exactly what it introduced.
No, they devoted a 9 book series to showing how egregiously wrong Jacen was about everything. They've also published the "Potenium Heresy" and retconned Vergere into a Sith.
But Shatterpoint had a beautiful message. Civilization can't survive in the Jungle, it's weak and foolish to fight Evil with Naive Fluffy Bunnies, and Evil is stronger than Good.....except when you don't break and it crumbles down before those who refuse to give up (Mace Windu). Thus, instead, the Dark Side is revealed to be the impotent illusion it is.
But hey, I know plenty of guys who like Traitor's worldview better. Go ahead and enjoy it. I just feel it reduces the Force to being Mystra's Weave. I don't like the Force as magic, it's a religion.
Couldn't speak to FF anything, as don't know anything about it, but I will say that I found Moorcock's writing to be a twisted little thing that I found very little to like about.
So really, I have absolutely no useful analogies to use.
Couldn't speak to FF anything, as don't know anything about it, but I will say that I found Moorcock's writing to be a twisted little thing that I found very little to like about.
Never liked Moorcock either. The paragraph that disgusted me most was in Stormbringer, where out of nowhere (they hadn't expressed any such feelings), he "made wild love under the moonshine" to some person he'd met the same day.
Though to be honest, sex in books generally doesn't bother me unless its pointlessly gratuitous fantasy fulfillment crap.
Don't much care for virile heroes personally... don't really like writing where you can smell the **** in the ink. Generally, it screams of sexual insecurity to me, but that's probably more the fault of my hatred for Hemmingway than anything else.
Maybe. I'm not much of a fan of graphic content but I always found open sexual appetite to be an easy enough way to give heroes a reasonable enough 'grounding' from more idealistic ones. But you're right that it can be overdone and occasionally border on the misogynistic even if it doesn't outright cross over into it.
Going back to FR, I'm a fan I think of establishing "niches" for a large number of groups and avoiding crossover when possible. While it makes sense there might be a half-dozen evil Medieval Corporations in FR, I tend to favor letting groups have their own particular styles of evil.
* The Zhents are the evil SPECTRE equivalent. They're out to make money and gain power through the manipulation of politics.
* Zhentil Keep acts as my generic Sauron substitute with Armies of Orcs ready to pour through gates at any minute.
* The Knights of the Shield are a somewhat classier version made of nobles and Hellfire Club trust children.
* The Thayans are the Evil Foreign EmpireTM that has existed in propaganda since Troy.
* The Twisted Rune I use as basically an all-powerful group of near-cosmic Magicians who can do whatever the Hell they want.
(Mystra has been kidnapped! Must be the Twisted Rune!)
* The Arcane Brotherhood I use for my generic Evil Magicians whenever I need one to exist but don't want to add the stink of Espionage/Foreign Peril.
* The Eldreth Veluuthra are your typical Racist Villains.
* The Church of Bane/Xvim plays the role of my "Prejudiced Evil Faith that whips the population into a frenzy."
* The Church of Cyric is my "Cult of Nasties acting behind a pleasant exterior."
* The Cult of the Dragon are just there for "Barking Mad Cultists working for things that must not be."
And that pretty much covers most of my villain needs at any given time.
No, Pc's are NOT special, PC's exist in a world with other characters.
On a practical level, as an RPG player in a pen and paper RPG, why would I play a character who is not special, who has the potential to become moreso.
RPGs seem inherantly egotistical, and PCs are the extension of their players' egos. Players experience the DMs world through their PCs. That in and of itself makes the PCs special.
On a practical level, as an RPG player in a pen and paper RPG, why would I play a character who is not special, who has the potential to become moreso.
RPGs seem inherantly egotistical, and PCs are the extension of their players' egos. Players experience the DMs world through their PCs. That in and of itself makes the PCs special.
I believe a point should be made "PCs are special to the interest levels of the players."
If the PCs are playing Firefly the RPG then, Serenity movie aside, the PCs aren't special. The fun of the game and setting is they're just a bunch of rogues trying to survive in a very hostile universe. However, if you're playing Star Wars then you can reasonably expect to be a major pain in the Empire's
#2 The Force is just that - A FORCE; it has no feelings or emotions either way. Saying there is a Light side and a Dark side is like saying there is 'White' and 'Black' magic.
Its all about intent. Is a gun evil? If I use it to kill someone, does the gun get upset? Its just a tool.
Now I take the same gun, and take down a bunch of terrorists that were holding an elementary school full of children hostage. Is the gun happy now? Is it a good gun?
Intent is everything - all the rest is just religous mumbo-jumbo. Don't let those Jedi fool you - they are just as 'good' as the Medieval Catholic Church.
@Stigger - you should read Orsinian Tales by Ursula K. Le Guin. Its a collection of short stories, and one of the main characters is one of those 'muscle-bound', Testosterone junkies you hate... and in one of the stories (not his) he makes an appearance and saves the Princess, but turns down sex from her.
You see, he is currently 'seeing' the 12 year old boy he saved in his own story. ;)
"The Will of the Force."
"Destiny"
"You will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force"
Okay, sure, if it fits your worldview then fine.
Intent is everything - all the rest is just religous mumbo-jumbo. Don't let those Jedi fool you - they are just as 'good' as the Medieval Catholic Church.
The Medieval Catholic Church actually gets props for being LESS insane than what was before but that is still a major insult to the Jedi whom are a force for love and justice throughout the galaxy. Seriously man, what movies were you watching?
Your argument basically boils down to "The Jedi are bad because they say the Force guides them and they serve the Light but because I don't believe a Lightside exists, they don't have anything guiding them."
Which basically says that the 'Force' is a disease brought on by 'germs' (those nasty medichlorines).
Now, as for me, I have enough crap going on with my body that I don't need a bunch of 'bugs' trying to make me their b__ch. ;)
I was watching the movie with the medichlorines (sp?)
-Medichlorians. The Phantom Menace.
Which basically says that the 'Force' is a disease brought on by 'germs' (those nasty medichlorines).
-Not exactly. Roughly, the Force is the interaction between "your" medichlorians, and the medichlorians existing "in" other things.
-Mind you, I think that maybe ten people worldwide actually liked that. ;)
And then force Lucas to 're-do' that part...
and while we are at it, we should make him hire an ACTOR to play young Annakin. ;)
I never said I like the Medichlorians... in fact, thats what blew it for me right there. After that, I lost all respect for the series. Before then, I would have agreed with Charles, but from that point on I was like "say what?" There's nothing metaphysical about it?
Jar-Jar wasn't even half as bad as that.
Oh... kill Jar-Jar too!
I never said I like the Medichlorians... in fact, thats what blew it for me right there. After that, I lost all respect for the series. Before then, I would have agreed with Charles, but from that point on I was like "say what?" There's nothing metaphysical about it
Lucas was attempting to make a statement about mitochondria as the building blocks of life.
Instead, it came off as the X-gene.
Or worse, Anakin's midiclorian count of 10,000 came off like... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI
We should kill them.
-Can we take their stuff? ;)
And then force Lucas to 're-do' that part...
-While we're at it, indeed...
#1 Michael Moorcock rocks - don't make fun of 'making love under the moonlight with a stranger' unless you've tried it. ;)
Done that and 5 mates witnessed it; but it was that the line came out of nowhere. Didn't even have "They looked into each other's eyes."
IF it was a Melnibonean doing that, then it makes some sense. They are not so much emotional, as they are sensual. Outwardly they behave like Vulcans most of the time, and I can't see a Vulcan "looking sweetly into someone's eyes" - it would be more along the lines of "Do you wish to procreate now?" ;)
Now that I think about it... Romulans would be a much better fit... they aren't all 'lovey-dovey', but they do embrace their anger very well. :D
Don't much care for virile heroes personally... don't really like writing where you can smell the **** in the ink.
I like writing with that smell.
;)
Or do they?
"A Long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."
So, we see now that the Gammoreans were really the precursers to the Orc race, and the Scro were like an 'in-between' stage.
The Wookies landed on FR too... where do you think the Alaghi came from? :D
Strangely, the 'pig-faced' Orcs are the less evolved ones (1e), and they have made great strides in personal hygiene and grooming since the early 1e/2e days.
-If I'm not mistaken, the artwork for the Hunter's Blade Trilogy has plenty of pig-nosed Orcs.
So, we see now that the Gammoreans were really the precursers to the Orc race, and the Scro were like an 'in-between' stage.
-Quite possibly.
The Grey Orcs of the south and east are the snoutless, tusked (Warcraft) variety, and have always gotten along with other races for the most part (after the Orcgate Wars, that is).
I think maybe the Orcs of the North (the ones used in Zhentil Keep's armies) are a crossbreed between Mountain Orcs, and the more human-looking Ondonti. Nothing specific in canon, but they are somewhat more intelligent and better diciplined, and are even a little 'better looking' then other Mountain Orcs. Since the Zhents have been rounding up Ondonti as slaves (canon), it makes sense that they would have included this more intelligent variety in any breeding programs they had going on.
The ones a little further south in Cormyr are definately 'old school' pig-faced ones. I'm reading Beyond the High Road again, and they refer to them as 'Swiners' constantly.
You know, we have been discussing racism in at least one other thread, and I know that in the RW some groups practice it even against their own kind, so it makes me wonder if some Orcs 'look down' at others?
-If I'm not mistaken, the artwork for the Hunter's Blade Trilogy has plenty of pig-nosed Orcs.
Either you are mistaken or we have a very different idea of what a pig-face is, because all I see are the new gorilla-faced orcs.
Either you are mistaken or we have a very different idea of what a pig-face is, because all I see are the new gorilla-faced orcs.
-Funny-nose Orcs, then.
At least there are no Pinocchio-nosed orcs.
At least there are no Pinocchio-nosed orcs.
-Those are Trolls. Look at their schnozzes. Whoa.
The Mystara ones, from plain old vanilla Dungeons & Dragons, I think were the first to sport the 'modern' look.
The Mystara ones, from plain old vanilla Dungeons & Dragons, I think were the first to sport the 'modern' look.
-Coincidence, MT? Coincidence? ;) :P
And why shouldn't they? Mystara was a very rich setting, but used a different set of rules, and Ed himself even wrote one of its sourcebooks -
I think they should bring back Mystara, perhaps even as the default 4e setting... then again... maybe not.
Not at all - all the best parts of Mystara made it over to FR - even the name of that Orc kingdom pictured above.
-Huh. Thar. Go figure. Does that Thar resemble out Thar?
Its more like the way the Thar used to be hundreds of years ago, back when the Orcs still had a fairly powerful Kingdom.
Also, that Thar was Mountainous, whereas FR's Thar is badlands.
But we also got cool stuff like the Avariels and Aranea from Mystara. :D
Strangely, AD&D had the 'pig-faced Orcs' - I wish I could find a picture, but I don't have the old 1e MM in a pdf.
Found a pic!
1e MM OrcsNow, don't you think the newer ones from the Drizzt books are so much sexier? :P
How did the Gods creed differ from then to now? If its not that different then why where Orcs changed?
And what is going on with King Many-Arrows? I can't find anything current on-line and his Wiki entry has gone.
Question- back in the day when Orcs where LE how was Grummsh and his pantheon described?
How did the Gods creed differ from then to now? If its not that different then why where Orcs changed?
I don't think anything has really changed in orc behavior, it's just that their alignment has always been randomly assigned...
And what is going on with King Many-Arrows?
-In what way do you mean?
I can't find a decent synopsis of the book series and the plots.
Are the FR novels canon? Is there a official game module for Many-Arrows and his Orcish Kingdom?
Well the last I knew Many-Arrows was trying to pull a Kingdom together and *that* Drow was killing his way through 1,000+ Orcs.
-Ah, yes. King Obould waged a war against the north, and wound up establishing his own kingdom, The Kingdom of Many-Arrows, in 1369/1370 DR.
Are the FR novels canon?
-Yes.
Is there a official game module for Many-Arrows and his Orcish Kingdom?
-No, though the adventure Sons of Gruumsh can easily be adapted to the Forgotten Realms.
-No, though the adventure Sons of Gruumsh can easily be adapted to the Forgotten Realms.
Ah, isn't that already an FR adventure?
Ah, isn't that already an FR adventure?
-Maybe? I don't know.
;) Is it time for another Orc-girl pinup yet? :P
LE wasn't that great of a fit for them really... it seems to fit for orogs, sort of, but not your average orc. Their society was never really portrayed as LE I didn't think, and their behaviour certainly never was that I recall.
I actually see them as more NE, myself.
The Orcs in Azoun's Army were more diciplined then the Dwarves, believe it or not. The Zhentish ones act very much LE, so I would put the generic Algn somewhere in the middle -
They tend toward Chaotic naturally, but given a strong leader-figure, they easily take to a more lawful role.
How did the Gods creed differ from then to now? If its not that different then why where Orcs changed?
Gruumsh was lawful evil in 1e.
They tend toward Chaotic naturally, but given a strong leader-figure, they easily take to a more lawful role.
-That speaks more for their natural chaoticness, then. They have no rules, but when presented with a bigger, tougher, stronger Orc who does, they fall in line until he/she is no longer controlling things. That, when applied to other situations, works. Various Hordes that assemble more often than not break and dissolve once the leader behind all of the unification dies/leaves/whatever else.
If you read that short story with drizzt in Realms of te Elves, it clearly shows a well-disciplined military unit working and building a kingdom together... and Obould is nowhere around (they were building 'border forts').
Nothing for nothing, but the way I see chaos working is all hell breaks lose the minute the 'boss man' isn't around.
I guess thats why they got rid of alignments in 4e - no two people could agree on what they meant.
Besides, does this guy LOOK chaotic to you?
Thats official WotC art BTW, not 3rd party. ;)
See, I don't see that, because they work so well together, and are very organized under a strong leader. Drow are just as likely to attack each other in any given situation, but Orcs, not so much.
If you read that short story with drizzt in Realms of te Elves, it clearly shows a well-disciplined military unit working and building a kingdom together... and Obould is nowhere around (they were building 'border forts').
Nothing for nothing, but the way I see chaos working is all hell breaks lose the minute the 'boss man' isn't around.
I guess thats why they got rid of alignments in 4e - no two people could agree on what they meant.
Besides, does this guy LOOK chaotic to you?
Thats official WotC art BTW, not 3rd party. ;)
Ah, Fist of Raziel, my Fav PrC
See, I don't see that, because they work so well together, and are very organized under a strong leader.
-Yes, I "conceded" as much. That doesn't make them lawful, however. That just shows that, when a stronger entity exists, they are willing to work together, to prevent retribution. That's a trait everyone (mostly) shares.
If you read that short story with drizzt in Realms of te Elves, it clearly shows a well-disciplined military unit working and building a kingdom together... and Obould is nowhere around (they were building 'border forts').
-Obould still existed, however. His mere existence was still there to guide the Orcs into behaving "properly".
I mean, what is Lawful? You obey the rules of the land, right? And those guys are obeying Obould's rules, right?
Its when you don't listen to authority that you are considered 'chaotic'.
Law, Chaos, Neutrality... aren't just behaviour. They're a way of looking at the world and how society should function when it really comes down to it. Orcs... just don't even begin to qualify for Lawful on that level.
I mean, what is Lawful? You obey the rules of the land, right? And those guys are obeying Obould's rules, right?
-Read the PHB! Note that the Orcs are not obeying Obould's laws because they are laws. This would mark a Lawful person. They obey laws- even laws that are detrimental to them- because they are laws, and you shouldn't disobey the law. In this case, the majority of these Orcs are not obeying Obould's laws because they are the laws of the land. They are obeying them because, if they don't, Obould, or one of his generals, or whatever, kills them.
-While this is a more extreme example of what I said above, if someone put a gun to your head, and forced you to rob a bank, would your alignment become chaotic? Or evil?
Its when you don't listen to authority that you are considered 'chaotic'.
-That's one aspect of it.
I'm not sure robbing a bank would qualify as evil... unless you killed someone maybe... and even then it would kind of depend. But that's neither here nor there...
-Well, I'm just saying. You get the point I'm making.
I'm not sure robbing a bank would qualify as evil... unless you killed someone maybe... and even then it would kind of depend. But that's neither here nor there...
Robbing a bank is bad, as you run away with other people's monies. You hurt others who haven't done you anything, so that's evil. it's also Chaotic, as it's against the law.
Robbing a bank is bad, as you run away with other people's monies. You hurt others who haven't done you anything, so that's evil.
True--what if you ran off with someone's life savings? You just made that person's life a lot harder.
If you robbed from said bank, and helped people with it, rather then allow the fat-cats who own the bank to squander it away on another 750,000 sports car, you would not only be considered 'good', but would probably qualify for sainthood.
Orcs
Still not buying it - anyone who willingy (YES, willingly) follows a strong leader because he believes in him, ALSO believes in the things he does, including the laws he makes.
Drizzt, in that story, is astounded by the fact the Orcs ARE behaving EXTREMELY lawfully, cooperating and working together peaceably. He even mentions the fact that when other Orcs bring food and supplies to the ones working, the workers not only continue to work, but the food and supplies are passed out in orderly fashion with not fighting and bullying.
Does that sound like Orcish behaviour to you? Absolutely not... but it does sound lawful.
Don't blame me, RAS made them lawful (he has a way of changing the rules a lot, doesn't he?). And besides, they started out LE, as did Gruumsh. D&D got them RIGHT, FR got the WRONG.
We is just gettin' back to our roots. ;)
I.e. it's against a genuine GENOM/OCP/EvilCorporateofGenericaTM style group.
FYI, oh, someone gave a good explanation of my view on the Sith and the Dark Side:
I tend to think that the Dark Side is basically anthropomorphic evil in the universe.
Unlike the Devil in RL religion, The Dark Side is created and strengthened by the Evil rather than the reverse.
However, because Force Sensitives can communicate with the Force, they can become slaves to anthropomorphic Evil.
Get my point?
As to orcs and RAS... I really don't care about his own personal take on them. To me, its just another case of him not paying attention to the sourcebooks and just doing whatever appeals to him personally... one of the reasons I'm not all that fond of him as an author and generator of lore. Though to point out the obvious in any case, if Drizzt was astounded, it does tend to point that behaviour being an abberration of the normal behavior or orcs. One example of something does not equate to a racial behavioral shift, particularly when it comes from that particular author.
Does that sound like Orcish behaviour to you?
-Sure, when there is a powerful leader pressing down on the back of their minds.
Elves = Chaotic Good
Orcs = Lawful Evil
Diametric opposites, plain and simple. Drow, on the other hand, are a 'dark reflection' of Elves, not an opposite, so they only oppose them allong one alignment axis.
Orcs may have had a highly sophisticared civilization at one point (they did have several kingdoms), but perhaps they got 'knocked back' into the 'stone Age' by Elves, Dwarves, and up-and-coming humans (who occupied the same niche in the food chain at one point). Maybe things have come full-circle, and they are ready to rise out of savagery once again, to stand amongst the free peoples of Faerûn.
In these dark times of dead Gods, Spellplagues, aberrations, and headless Zhents, perhaps the Orcs are starting to look more like allies then enemies. Humanity - and by default all the demi-humans as well - need all the help they can get in the troubling days ahead. There's a Storm Comin'...
♪ "All we are sayyyyying... is give Orcs a chance..." ♫ ;)
Orcs are the OPPOSITE of Elves, ergo...
-Elves, in the Forgotten Realms, aren't diametrically opposed to Elves. If anything would be diametrically opposed to them, it'd be Hobgoblins (LE [I believe]). This isn't Tolkien, where they were created TO oppose Elves. That they do come into conflict with Elves is a matter of culture, history, and religion, on both sides.
Backing MT here, but i don't think the orcs believe in the laws Obould laid down - they follow them because they're afraid their generals will rearrange their face if they don't. i'd say they're mostly CE, but their bosses are LE.
-Yes, this is what I've been saying.
And there are plenty of 'unidenitfied' ruins throughout Faerûn, like the Citadel of the Raven (Thar?), Chasolné, ruins beneath several swamps (probably Batrachi though), Ironfang Keep, etc...
And Orcs never had much magic, so perhaps there ancient civilizations have been wiped away. How many ruins do we have from 5000 years ago? 7000? 10,000? In the RW, we have very little evidence of any culture going back as far as 10,000, yet in FR we see that all the time, thanks to long-lived races like the Elves and Dwarves, and also because magic helps hold things together longer. Thats why we can find intact Netherease and Imaskari ruins.
The Orcs probably never went beyond building wooden structures in most circumstances. how many of our modern homes will be around in couple hundred years? A thousand years? Damn well few, if any. All we have are primitive cave drawings to show us Orcish culture, but perhaps between those cave drawings and the Orcs today, there was oince something more.
Look at the Scro (Space Orcs) - they have built a highly diciplined technologically advanced spacefaring civilization, on par with their chief competitors, the EIA (Imperial Elven Armada). they are not 'brutish', but rather sophisticated and cunning. maybe they are all thats left of the original Orcish culture on Toril, did you ever think of that?
And now, back by popular demand, Orcish Pinups -
As to orcish structures... given the whole vision issue, its likely they'd never build on the surface in any appreciable way in the first place... secondly, they are savages. That there is an exception in the scro doesn't make the rule that they were all that way at any point. There's not much to go on (except for some very thin reachings) in terms of lore for the Realms that makes a even remotely convincing arguement that they were ever relatively advanced.
I'm not going to broach the subject of what you qualify as 'fair'... :P
Seems like a bit of straw grasping to me... face it Markus, they're a bunch of savage adventurer-fodder who are only there for people to ding on.
Please, like elves have anything resembling Orc's accomplishments. Take the Orc structure in Sojourn. That was some impressive stone work! Stinking Elves living their trees.
But the whole Corellon/Gruumsh thing clearly puts them on OPPOSITES sides of a titanic, universal struggle - it's one of the few myths that remain relatively unchanged from FR to Core.
-That is a creation myth, that might not be true. I tend to believe that it is true, however. That said, that story only places Corellon and Gruumsh as enemies. Nothing more, nothing less. That doesn't necessarily make "their children" destined enemies. To say that this is a titanic, universal struggle is overexaggerating the story, and is looking at things in far too simple terms. After all, MT, aren't you the proponent that Orcs are really just misunderstood? By attempting to convince me (and others) that they are LE creatures, wouldn't you be conceding that point?
-Everything else aside, I am only a proponent in Planes themselves being, and needing to have precise opposites. The nature of the multiverse is made up of EVERYTHING, and EVERYTHING needs balance. That's why it's a circular. That Elves and Orcs are fated enemies, and all of that, in my eyes, is seeing things in far to concrete terms. Nothing exists in black and white. Everything is a shade of gray. There is only the Unifying Force, remember? ;)
Look at the Scro (Space Orcs) - they have built a highly diciplined technologically advanced spacefaring civilization, on par with their chief competitors, the EIA (Imperial Elven Armada). they are not 'brutish', but rather sophisticated and cunning. maybe they are all thats left of the original Orcish culture on Toril, did you ever think of that?
-There is no doubt that Scro are advanced. Scro are also not Orcs. Scro dispise Orcs. Scro are to Orcs what Neanderthals are to Humans.
Please, like elves have anything resembling Orc's accomplishments. Take the Orc structure in Sojourn. That was some impressive stone work! Stinking Elves living their trees.
-Dark Elves, and Drow, live "in stone".
:p
But yes, for me, I think Orcs should represent the opposite of elves in that they're violent Id personified.
Hahah, yeah right. Dark Elves are just Dwarf rip offs.
-I don't particularly like them too much. You're not hurting me by saying that. I'm just correcting your statement.
Along comes man... they have a few skirmishes, but the primitive humans take to the lowlands, and the savage Orcs claim the high ground, and so they live in peace for a thousand years or (that describes the situation pretty mush in Savage frontier.
Humans breed fast... too fast (even Elves and dwarves know that), and they demand more resources. They begin to push the Orc tribes further and further into the mountains, where there is less game and it becomes hard to feed their young. Once again, Orcs and humans squabble. Orcs get tired of being pushed around, form up into a 'horde' (several dozen tribes), and attack and destroy a human settlement encroaching on their land.
Monsters! beasts! Vermin! How dare they?!
Now lets push the clock back, oh... I don't know, about 1300 years.
The brand new settlemnet of Cormyr (it isn't even a Kingdom yet). The humans move into the land. They fight a bit with the Elves, but the Elves just retreat into the forests, and there is nearly a century of peace.
Humans breed fast... too fast (even Orcs and Goblins know that), and they demand more resources. They begin to push the Elf tribes further and further into the forests, by clear-cutting huge swaths of it. (Starting to sound familiar?) Once again, Elves and humans squabble. Elves get tired of being pushed around, form up into a raiding party, and attack and destroy a human settlement encroaching on their land (canon FACT).
Oh! Those poor, wee wittle Elvesys! To have to resort to such violence to get their point across! The poor dears! I hope they didn't break a nail while MURDERING HUMANS!
The Elf King apologizes, and the human leader says "don't mention it", and they all go back about their business.
Why the difference? Because Orcs are ugly! Humans (and others) DESTROY what they find unpleasant to look upon. Elves are 'pretty', so no one gets mad at them for doing the same exact things!
Its morally wrong to hate something just because its ugly, and Orcs deserve the same fair shake that everyone else does.
I would call the armies of the Crown Wars 'Elf Hordes' spilling out of the north to bring death and destruction down upon their enemies. Where is the diffeence? Because they are better dressers?
Seriously, you guys are being very bigotted about Orcs. Humans have fought just as many wars with Elves and dwarves, and yet no one wants to wipe them out. I see no difference except predjudice against a group of people who simply don't "look like you".
Just because something is ugly, and doesn't bath much, doesn't mean you should kill it. If people in the RW thought like you guys, we wouldn't have have great entertainers like Rosanne Barr and Sam Kinison. :P
-You've put yourself in a Catch 22.
Its morally wrong to hate something just because its ugly, and Orcs deserve the same fair shake that everyone else does.
-That is entirely dependent on the ethical philosophies one ascribes to. In a philosophy where killing Orcs is a good thing, are you being immortal? Is the concept of a objective, absolute morality real? Is it simply the creation of the idealistic Human mind?
Seriously, you guys are being very bigotted about Orcs.
-The same could be said about anything. Is it moral to kill Trolls? Are the people of Nesme acting immorally, when they fight with the Trolls of the surrounding moors and fens? Is it moral to kill Golems, when they "attack"? What about when Orcs fight with Goblins?
Elves = CE
Orcs =LG
Still opposites, though.
Orcs live 'with nature', whereas other sentients try to change nature (especially the elves, with their 'sick' spells that twist trees into unnatural shapes). The Orcs have very little impact on the environment, unlike the others, and is therefore the only truly good race, because it lives in harmony with the universe.
And you don't see their god walking around ripping the eyeballs out of people's frickin' heads!
Thats just savage! :P
You're right, I was wrong about the alignments, obviously it should be -
Elves = CE
Orcs =LG
Still opposites, though.
-And, that's even more wrong.
...(especially the elves, with their 'sick' spells that twist trees into unnatural shapes)...
-As we have been told, by Ed Greenwood, magic is a natural phenominon in the Forgotten Realms. That said, magical alterations of things is natural. Magically coaxing a tree to grow taller than it normally does is a natural process, as per "the creator".
The Orcs have very little impact on the environment, unlike the others, and is therefore the only truly good race, because it lives in harmony with the universe.
-The main reason for most Orc Hordes is the lack of food sources, which means they obviously have a rather large impact on the environment they inhabit. Though, it they had as much Kool-Aid as you just drank there, they might not have to go on rampages, destroying everything they randomly see, including innocents anymore (not very moral, eh?) ;)
And you don't se their god walking around ripping the eyeballs out of people's frickin' heads!
Thats just savage! :P
-No, of course not. They just do this:
-That's not savage...I mean, it's not as if that guy there wasn't going to be going home, to a family, a loving Orcish wife, little Orclets...Read the R.A. Salvatore story in Realms of War, and apply it to this situation.
The nature of the multiverse is made up of EVERYTHING, and EVERYTHING needs balance. That's why it's a circular.
Circular form doesn't even begin to balance everything. At the very least you need a 4-dimensional hypersphere.
Circular form doesn't even begin to balance everything. At the very least you need a 4-dimensional hypersphere.
-Spheres are still circular. ;)
-That said, I didn't finish that sentence properly. It should be "That's why it's a circular diagram."
Ramjet this!
It was obviously referring to this post you made. Way to spoil a joke I prepared for a month and a half. :P
-Oh, oh. I got that from looking up alternate meanings fot 'Dirge', you know. I had no foreknowledge that Dirge was a transformer. I was simply looking for an alternate meaning to the word, to alter Zanan's sentence.
-That said, I won't tell anyone if you don't, and we can claim the joke worked.
It isn't a case of aesthetics, its a case of their entire societal foundation (read as religion) is a tremendously ugly thing that in no way offers them the basis of a stable or benevolent society, either towards themselves or their neighbors. That they're ugly by human standards is immaterial.
I'd agree that the elves weren't all that different during the Crown Wars, but they at least learned their lesson afterwards, more or less, and abandoned the wholesale slaughter ways embraced during that period. Orcs have yet to demonstrate a willingness to do that as far as I'm aware. Obould may be an exception, and assuming he is indeed genuine (unlikely if he's a true follower of Gruumsh), he is still an exception, and hardly the norm. As things stand, orcs have done very little to earn the trust or goodwill of their neighbors, and will have to more to prove their intentions to their neighbors, particularly after launching a war of conquest a short time before... sounds more like a time-buying tactic than a genuine offer of peace to me.
-After all, MT, aren't you the proponent that Orcs are really just misunderstood? By attempting to convince me (and others) that they are LE creatures, wouldn't you be conceding that point?
I was wondering the same thing.
Obould may be an exception, and assuming he is indeed genuine (unlikely if he's a true follower of Gruumsh), he is still an exception, and hardly the norm. As things stand, orcs have done very little to earn the trust or goodwill of their neighbors, and will have to more to prove their intentions to their neighbors, particularly after launching a war of conquest a short time before... sounds more like a time-buying tactic than a genuine offer of peace to me.
And as I've pointed out (this is a general statement to everyone), even if Obould is an exception to the norm, he's still not an example of a kindly, benevolent orc (just a "civilized" one). Need I remind that Obould made war before making overtures of peace? He didn't want peace until he got what he wanted, first.
For me, just because Orcs are a bunch of militants and jerks doesn't mean they're monsters. Anymore than someone shouldn't cave the skulls in of invading Elves just because they're Chaotic Good and have some reason to be there.
Let's face it, it's very easy to sympathize with Evil types as long as they're the victims.
It depends on how bad you think a Lawful Evil society is. The people of Zhentil Keep are Lawful Evil.
-I disagree. I was explaining to Zanan about this, concerning Ilythiir, and by example, Nazi Germany. The Ilythiiri state was evil. Not every Dark Elf of Ilythiir was evil. The Nazi German state was evil. Not every German living in Germany at that time was evil. Zhentil Keep, as a state, is evil. Not every individual living there is evil. The state itself is evil, because of the policies it adapts, but those who compose it need not to be evil.
Let's face it, it's very easy to sympathize with Evil types as long as they're the victims.
-I don't necessarily think so. Take The Sopranos, for instance. One of my favorite televisions shows. Tony is clearly an evil individual. He is morally reprehensible (ah, that word doesn't get used very often). I always "root" for the feds, when busts go down. However romanticized they are, mafioso are bad people.
-My paternal great-grandmother married into the mafia. Long before I was born, my paternal great-grandfather "disappeared", and my great-grandmother was "taken care of" by his friends, from then on in. She's still alive, too. She's 85, and I swear, she doesn't look a day over 60 or so. She's in great shape. She was dancing at the wedding I went to the other day.
-I disagree. I was explaining to Zanan about this, concerning Ilythiir, and by example, Nazi Germany. The Ilythiiri state was evil. Not every Dark Elf of Ilythiir was evil. The Nazi German state was evil. Not every German living in Germany at that time was evil. Zhentil Keep, as a state, is evil. Not every individual living there is evil. The state itself is evil, because of the policies it adapts, but those who compose it need not to be evil.
Under D&D terms, I disagree for the most part. There's certainly exceptions to the rules but for the most part, the majority of people in Zhentil Keep will show up as evil. Ditto Orcs.
But that doesn't mean that every Orc is a kill hungry monster, it just means that Mama Orc loves her cubs and will go out of her way to mend Thog's leg while perfectly believing that every Elf should die.
-I don't necessarily think so. Take The Sopranos, for instance. One of my favorite televisions shows. Tony is clearly an evil individual. He is morally reprehensible (ah, that word doesn't get used very often). I always "root" for the feds, when busts go down. However romanticized they are, mafioso are bad people.
Certainly, however that doesn't mean that plenty of gamers might not want to play Mafia types. No one's suggesting Orc culture shouldn't be evil or better. I'm just pointing out that by D&D standards, the Romans and god knows how many other RL cultures were evil.
And everyone who HELD those beliefs BY NATURE was ALSO evil.
I was wondering the same thing.
My points (they are seperate) are that Orcs and not as simply defined as so many of you seem to think they are.
Saying an Orc is an Orc is the same as saying an Elf is an Elf - something I think LK would strongly disagree with.
We have in FR canon -
Mountain Orcs
Grey (eastern) Orcs
Black Orcs (Stormhorns, Stonelands)
Ondonti (Thar, Tortured Land, The Ride)
Thayan Neo-Orog
.. Red Orc
.. Black Orc
.. Blooded (may be the same as the 2nd ed Red)
Orog (Orc/Ogre)
Ogrillon (Ogre/Orc)
Boogin (Orc/Quoggoth)
Tanarukk (Orc Tiefling)
Ondonti
Maztican
Half-Orcs - which there certainly are seperate societies of, in several places, and most notably a large number amongst the tribes of the Savage North.
I probably missed a few... it seams that their are as many types of Orcs, as there are types of Elves. ;)
On a very cursory examination of orcish activites one would see orcs working together, guarding, hunting, comminicating, etc. This could lead to the conclusion that you are observing an organised society or even a group of individuals that all adhere to the values of order.
However this is most likely the manifestation of the orcish chaotic nature at it's most balanced state - where personal freedoms are mitigated by personal welfare.
If we have a random orc (randomly chosen not a orc that IS random) *fumbles in hat and pulls out an orc* we'll name him Quij. We can see how this confucian is appearing. As I'm bored I'll do this via the medium of a Role-Playing encounter:
Show
An adventurer is wandering through a dungeon wherupon he stumbles across a door. Carefully opening the door the adventurer reaches for his sword in preparation. He slowly peers in to reveal a "10ft by 10ft room. There is an procine-looking creature guarding a chest" Enter Quij.
The adventurer seeing this creature, seemingly guarding only this chest for no immediate purpose, deduces that this being must belong to a race of very disciplined and dutiful creatures. The brave adventurer steps into the room and begins to throw down a challenge to Quij, "Guardian of the Chest! I hereby challenge you to a contest of steel for the treasure you so dilligently protect, by the rules set down in...." The adventurer is cut off suddenly as Quij utters a gutteral roar and charges.
Roughly 6 seconds later Quij has thrown his weapon to the ground and has begun bartering for mercy.
Surprised, the adventurer takes a step back and asks "Why were you guarding the chest?"
The adventurer seeing this creature, seemingly guarding only this chest for no immediate purpose, deduces that this being must belong to a race of very disciplined and dutiful creatures. The brave adventurer steps into the room and begins to throw down a challenge to Quij, "Guardian of the Chest! I hereby challenge you to a contest of steel for the treasure you so dilligently protect, by the rules set down in...." The adventurer is cut off suddenly as Quij utters a gutteral roar and charges.
Roughly 6 seconds later Quij has thrown his weapon to the ground and has begun bartering for mercy.
Surprised, the adventurer takes a step back and asks "Why were you guarding the chest?"
Hahah, yeah right. Dark Elves are just Dwarf rip offs.
Gaaahhhhh..... :fight!:
First STII gets rick-rolled and OMG drow are stink'n dwarf rip offs.... the world is pressing my buttons! :P
Let's face it, it's very easy to sympathize with Evil types as long as they're the victims.
You say victim, I say underdog - granted the movie spartans were kick arse compared to the jerks that the real-life spartans were. Maybe thats what the Orcs need, some good PR
You say victim, I say underdog - granted the movie spartans were kick arse compared to the jerks that the real-life spartans were. Maybe thats what the Orcs need, some good PR
The Dwarves, Elves, and Humans all band together to WIPE THE ORCS OUT.
300 Orcs against 6 million Faeruners!
The Dwarves, Elves, and Humans all band together to WIPE THE ORCS OUT.
300 Orcs against 6 million Faeruners!
Dirty Faeruners!
You give them a chance - everyone deserves that. If they screw up again, without provocation, then you slaughter them. But you don't slaughter EVERY SINGLE GROUP because the last one was bad.
-And if Orcs are created inherently evil, as Demons are? I don't think that anyone believes this is the case, but...
You say victim, I say underdog - granted the movie spartans were kick arse compared to the jerks that the real-life spartans were. Maybe thats what the Orcs need, some good PR
But they still saved the idea of democracy when it was in its infancy.
Gotta love the Spartans - had "Slave Slaughter" days, when slaves were game. Any Spartan could kill a slave without being reprimanded for it. Was used to stamp out thoughts of rebellion. Worked pretty well too!
-And if Orcs are created inherently evil, as Demons are? I don't think that anyone believes this is the case, but...
Well I'm in favor of genocide of the Borg, Cybermen, Xenomorphs, Zerg, and Daleks.
Mostly because their Free Agency is compromised.
Plus, really, how you phrase anything is likely to change the meaning. Take my example below from a friend's conversation with me before a SAGA SW game.
Friend: So, you're into the EU, what do the Jedi do exactly?
Me: Well, they work for the Republic.
Friend: But they're independent.
Me: Yes. They're an independent knighthood that the Republic contracts to handle all of the work it can't do with its own military and ensure security.
Friend: Do they get paid?
Me: Sometimes.
Friend: So, the Jedi are Blackwater?
-My paternal great-grandmother married into the mafia. Long before I was born, my paternal great-grandfather "disappeared", and my great-grandmother was "taken care of" by his friends, from then on in. She's still alive, too. She's 85, and I swear, she doesn't look a day over 60 or so. She's in great shape. She was dancing at the wedding I went to the other day.
Yeah, I apparently have ancestors who were in the Italian mafia, myself (I know nothing about them, though, and I doubt they are still alive).
You give them a chance - everyone deserves that.
How do we know they haven't been given chances down the years?
My points (they are seperate) are that Orcs and not as simply defined as so many of you seem to think they are.
Who said that? I never said orcs are simply defined. However, I seem to recall that you were arguing that orcs weren't evil, just misunderstood and only fight because they are provoked into it. However, in this thread you seem to be conceding that orcs are evil, just LAWFUL evil (not nice, just civilized).
That is what I was confused about.
You say victim, I say underdog - granted the movie spartans were kick arse compared to the jerks that the real-life spartans were. Maybe thats what the Orcs need, some good PR
The Spartans weren't all that bad. From what I've read, Spartan women had more freedom than the women of other Greek states did. Also, the Spartans weren't the only people to practice infanticide--that was practiced in many places, Greece and beyond (with female babies being the common victims).
Well I'm in favor of genocide of the Borg, Cybermen, Xenomorphs, Zerg, and Daleks.
-I don't know what 3 of those 5 even are.
Yeah, I apparently have ancestors who were in the Italian mafia, myself (I know nothing about them, though, and I doubt they are still alive).
-No one better mess with us. We'll scare you with veiled threats of mafioso reprisal that don't have much substance.
Mebbe 4e is the GoldenAge of orcs....u know..unpredictable things happen in history...hey, we had a golden age of goblins...why can't we have a golden age of orcs?
-Maybe. Fourth Edition Forgotten Realms have everything else backwards...
The Spartans weren't all that bad. From what I've read, Spartan women had more freedom than the women of other Greek states did.
Heard it was quite the opposite, but Spartan women were taken care of better, they did sports and stuff. Healthy mums = healthy babies = Better soldiers = Dead enemies.
Not saying the Spartans were bad for their age, Hell, they were the only country (they were a city state though) before Scotland to have public education. They were probably a steps more civilised than most.
The Vikings were quite nice to their women, apparently. The woman had the only say in divorces and stuff. Also, there were a fair few stories about viking women that got mistreated that got their husbands back.
-No one better mess with us. We'll scare you with veiled threats of mafioso reprisal that don't have much substance.
Who says they won't have much substance?
1st and 2nd Editions: Orcs are LE
By 3/3.5 they are CE
Now logically and historical canon (1st/2nd) LE makes a certain amount of sense for this very reason: They have made good soldiers they are orderly soldiers not due to strength of the leaders but because they can and do follow orders.
3/3.5 They change the alignment to fit perceptions derived from novels (which is fine)
So I propose a compromise...
Even the most chaotic of minds can with training become orderly. This does not mean that once that chaotic yet orderly mind is pushed beyond a certain point they will not revert...
Or really for that manner... the most orderly (i.e. Lawful) of minds have been known to go "Chaotic" if pushed too far...
So play Orcs as you see fit... LE or CE it really is no skin off my nose... now LK and Stigger... it may bruise theirs a bit, but I doubt it! ;)
-I don't know what 3 of those 5 even are.
Try wiki.
Who says they won't have much substance?
-But, you said...They...You...
-Gotcha. There is no Mafia...
Now logically and historical canon (1st/2nd) LE makes a certain amount of sense for this very reason: They have made good soldiers they are orderly soldiers not due to strength of the leaders but because they can and do follow orders.
-As has been demonstrated and explained, one does not have to be lawful to listen to orders, especially when there is a "big, bad overlord" waiting in the wings somewhere to punish you when/if you slack off. It's simply a survival instinct to go along with what's going on in cases like that. When the Sheriff has Maid Merian at swordpoint, the Chaotic Good Robin Hood listens very carefully to what he says.
Try wiki.
-If I cared enough, I might.
To try and explain my point again, I don't believe Orcs are evil at all, at least not anymore so then any other sentient race.
That is my belief.
Now, if you insist on pegging them as evil, then I would have to say that I personally think LE alignment fits them better. I've been playing this game a long time, and Orcs have always acted well in concert with each other. This 'CE' that 3e placed on them is just plain wrong, and since they seem to be correcting their mistake in 4e - that false alignment will be just a wart on D&D's history soon.
Truly Chaotic Beings can't get along (think aberrations), because each one of them is a unique individual. Orcs, on the other hand, are all cut from the same cloth, like a cookie cutter. There is nothing random about his behaviour - if you trespass into his territory, he will attack you. thats not chaotic, because you can PREDICT what he will do. In order to form into a Horde, tens of thousands of creatures from all different tribes have to work in concert and move and attack together. they do not go in 37 different directions - they head in one direction with a very determined single-mindedness. Thats not chaotic, IMHO.
So, if I were forced to give them an evil alignment, then I would say LE. But I still have my other opinion that they are no better or worse then anyone else.
If you can speak to someone, and have a conversation with him, drink beer with him and joke with him, how can you just slay him like an animal? When someone is protecting their own, then of course, its just self-defense, and its okay to kill. Just running up and killing something because its in the Monster Manual is not good RPing, IMG.
BTW, speaking of 'monsters', did you guys catch the latest cartoon - The Gnome is back!
Fart Jokes?!
This game is definately meant for ten year olds now. And you say I'm the one who fights with everybody? :P
-I am physically incapable of allowing others to get in the last word.
Truly Chaotic Beings can't get along (think aberrations), because each one of them is a unique individual.
-That's entirely untrue. Robin Hood and his Band of Merry Men were Chaotic, and they all got along quite well, for the most part. Mind you, I don't know the exact stories, but...
Orcs, on the other hand, are all cut from the same cloth, like a cookie cutter. There is nothing random about his behaviour - if you trespass into his territory, he will attack you. thats not chaotic, because you can PREDICT what he will do.
-Orcs =/= Deepspawn. Obould is quite different from Vraak, who is quite different from the Orc featured in Salvatore's story in Realms of War (Don't remember his name).
In order to form into a Horde, tens of thousands of creatures from all different tribes have to work in concert and move and attack together. they do not go in 37 different directions - they head in one direction with a very determined single-mindedness. Thats not chaotic, IMHO.
-And, as brought up time and time again, creatures need not be lawful to form unions. International relations and politics are made up of complete chaos- you can only trust yourself for your continued survival. That said, don't the UN, and various NGOs exist? Individual states band together, for the betterment of themselves. That does not change the fact that the waters of international relations and politics are wholly chaotic. That said, an Orc can rally together with other Orcs, if it somehow benefits him, and not be lawful. To take it one step further, an Orc tribe can rally with other Orc tribes, if it somehow benefits them, and not be lawful. Again, Robin Hood and his Band of Merry Men seem to get along and operate fine for a nunch of CG and CN individuals.
If you can speak to someone, and have a conversation with him, drink beer with him and joke with him, how can you just slay him like an animal?
-It's kind of hard when, invariably, as you said so yourself, a few points above, the Orc is going to attack you, regardless of your intentions.
-All of that said, why do you not hold Orcs to the same standards you hold everyone else to? In most cases we have evidence of, Orcs are the rabble-rousers, for whatever reason. With the attack on Occidian, they were rallied together and led by the Demon Haeksherr (Sp?), and destroyed Occidian, which, in canon, had no specific problems with the Orcs of the area. Or Obould's recent war on the North? How can those actions be justified?
BTW, speaking of 'monsters', did you guys catch the latest cartoon - The Gnome is back!
Fart Jokes?!
-Hmm...What was that gray thing with the tie? And, Mind Flayers cannot eat Gelotinous Cubes. They are acidic, as clearly demonstrated. And, yes, fart jokes- in that context, anyway- aren't funny.
-That's entirely untrue. Robin Hood and his Band of Merry Men were Chaotic, and they all got along quite well, for the most part. Mind you, I don't know the exact stories, but...
-And, as brought up time and time again, creatures need not be lawful to form unions. International relations and politics are made up of complete chaos- you can only trust yourself for your continued survival. That said, don't the UN, and various NGOs exist?
Robin's band were definitely Chaotic, because they didn't believe in the laws of Prince John (the Sheriff wasn't the head honcho). Being Chaotic means you don't think laws are necessary, not that you wouldn't follow them. But alignment is a very subjective thing. And did you just call the U.N. a non-good organisation? Can't figure out what that stands for (NGO).
Robin's band were definitely Chaotic, because they didn't believe in the laws of Prince John (the Sheriff wasn't the head honcho). Being Chaotic means you don't think laws are necessary, not that you wouldn't follow them. But alignment is a very subjective thing. And did you just call the U.N. a non-good organisation? Can't figure out what that stands for (NGO).
-Well, yes, it is a non-good organization (I bet you like that one! :P), but, no, that's not what NGO stands for: Non-Governmental Organization.
Ah, kk. But i'd say it's a pretty nice organisation! But let's not discuss that ;p
-Yeah. What they represent, and most of what they set out to do is good. Politically, and how all of that pans out, they are meh.
-Yeah. What they represent, and most of what they set out to do is good. Politically, and how all of that pans out, they are meh.
Right, that's your opinion. We disagree. Let's NOT discuss it [or bring the subject up], i believe i wrote.
Right, that's your opinion. We disagree. Let's NOT discuss it [or bring the subject up], i believe i wrote.
-Khaelieth, you don't agree that they represent, and most of what they set out to do is good!? My, my...:P
-Khaelieth, you don't agree that they represent, and most of what they set out to do is good!? My, my...:P
Thought you were the Master of the Obvious?;)
Thought you were the Master of the Obvious?;)
-I didn't chose that. That said, it was said in jest, based on (in that thread) my lack of understanding of some apparent (I didn't think so) sarcasm.
Now, if you insist on pegging them as evil, then I would have to say that I personally think LE alignment fits them better. I've been playing this game a long time, and Orcs have always acted well in concert with each other. This 'CE' that 3e placed on them is just plain wrong, and since they seem to be correcting their mistake in 4e - that false alignment will be just a wart on D&D's history soon.
It's a shame that this is changing personally, as I think their current incarnation has led to much of their development as a race, causing many shifts towards making Orcs a 'core race'. The barbarian culture, tribal societies, shamanistic religion has given them a flavour distinct from many of the other core races. They have come far from from the mere thralls of Sauron's will in Tolkien and taken on a real history and status in their own right.
I would of thought you'd be a fan of this direction Markus rather than returning them to the 'cookie-cutter' base monster from earlier editions.
Truly Chaotic Beings can't get along (think aberrations), because each one of them is a unique individual. Orcs, on the other hand, are all cut from the same cloth, like a cookie cutter. There is nothing random about his behaviour - if you trespass into his territory, he will attack you. thats not chaotic, because you can PREDICT what he will do.
Remember that Orcs arn't Truly Chaotic beings in the way that a slaad or Beholder is. They are not absolutes. Note that they are listed as only Often Chaotic, which describes their cultural tendancies more than their nature. Besides your same logic can also be applied to others such as Elves....which I don't think anyone would make Lawful, just because they get along. A chaotic Alignment means abit more than that.
In order to form into a Horde, tens of thousands of creatures from all different tribes have to work in concert and move and attack together. they do not go in 37 different directions - they head in one direction with a very determined single-mindedness. Thats not chaotic, IMHO.
This doesn't happen by itself, they don't all collectively sit down a decide to form a horde it requires alot of energy, will and time to whip a horde up for the very short amount of time they exist. It needs a certain set of conditions to arise for it to be possible, which due to the flux-like nature of orc society arises from time to time...it's not a planned thing.
Just running up and killing something because its in the Monster Manual is not good RPing, IMG.
Well I guess that depends on the character your role-playing: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html
....and as gnomes are now in the monster manual, why hold back.
BTW I understand where your coming from on the 'no longer evil' front.
Goblins, Bugbears and Hobgoblins in D&D do they = Moria Orcs, normal Orcs and Uruk Hai from Middle Earth?
Beacuase it seems to me that the 'types' of Orc in Middle Earth fit those 3 'races' better than D&D Orcs do.
Comments?
Tolkien later removed Hobgoblins as he realised he'd made the mistake of making them the larger race - The prefix 'Hob' denotes a smaller entity, as in Hobbit or Hobilar(light Irish cavalry).
Both Hobgoblins and Goblins were already part of European Folklore before Tolkien came along, however Tolkien helped create the currrent incarnation we see in D&D (especially the larger Hobgoblin - which should really be the smaller one, see how a small error by Tolkien can change an entire piece of folklore).
Goblin is kind of a catch-all term meaning 'Rougish Spirit'. It can refer to many creatures (such as the cannibalistic Hobyah or scary bogey) but is usually a mischivious household spirit that is often bartered with to keep it unoffended.
Hobgoblins are traditionally closer to Brownies in that they were very mischivious but characteristically good-humoured. An example of one can be seen in 'Gobolina the Witches Cat'
Bugbears are not related to Tolkien really, being another creature of English Folklore (similar to a Hobgoblin) in that it would scare children. Often appearing as a bear.
Orcs however are solely a Tolkien invention, including it's derivatives of Uruk-Hai etc.
Hope some of this helps.
The Spartans weren't all that bad. From what I've read, Spartan women had more freedom than the women of other Greek states did. Also, the Spartans weren't the only people to practice infanticide--that was practiced in many places, Greece and beyond (with female babies being the common victims).
Infanticide aside, they were still pretty nasty, even with a few things like thier treatment of women (which seems more like a byproduct of thier society rather than an concious effort for the betterment of women).
Admittedly I've only read and watched a few things about the spartans mostly piqued by my interest in 300, but it seems like for the most part being anything other than a citizen of the state was a drag.
Anyways I won't dwell on them to much longer, last time I did this I think me and GothicDan got the thread locked down.
...Hope some of this helps.
Yeah, pretty cool, epsecially the hob- part.
speaking of bugbears
I think this scored some major cool points with me, I've been wanting to make a bugbear pc since seeing this picture.
Maybe thats what orcs need, a visit to the beauty parlor.
Maybe thats what orcs need, a visit to the beauty parlor.
Nooooooo! Orcs are supposed to be ugly!!
and cool ugly
-The greener the orc the cuter they are
-Why didn't they make a novel based on orc adventurers? It'd be a great hit....Kang's regiment was a success..even tho' they weren't orcs...but they were orcs in that world
-Orcs holding a noble party for all races would be cool
-Orcs being a chosen of Sune would be cooler
All they've ever wanted was a place to call their own.
Maybe thats what orcs need, a visit to the beauty parlor.
Thats a new Reality Show planned for 4e - Extreme Orc Makeovers.
Here's our first contestant -
I think orcs are Lawful evil as a race, with chaotic evil and lawful neutral being common deviations. Primitive "barbarian" cultures are often rather lawful, and what fluff Ive read on both tolkien and dnd orcs seems to uphold a lawful point of veiw.
Id also point out that they dont serve under the big scary overlord because theyre intimidated into it. They most often serve the big scary overlord because as an "evil" group they want to take for themselves what they can get from others. As a chaotic evil theyd be as likely to kill the bbeg as the townsfolk, as he has cool stuff, theres more of them than him, and he *usually* has to sleep sometime. As a lawful standard they follow him because theyve agreed to, bought into the waaagh in a similar fashion to norsemen going aviking- a strong arm and a stout back in service in return for a share of the pillaging and if theres conquering to be done a bit of the land for themselves.
Its a simple arrangment, and a time honored contract. Lawful evil to a fault.
Orcs are well-behaved, decent citizens. You don't see them going around stealing people's Nether Scrolls. :P
All they've ever wanted was aplace to call their own.
Thats a new Reality Show planned for 4e - Extreme Orc Makeovers.
Here's our first contestant -
See I think this whole thing about Orcs being "Chaotic" Evil is mostly due to the rules for barbarians. Ive often thought it odd, and rather stupid really, that barbarians and bards have to be chaotic.
Actually the rules just say Bards and Barbarians have to be non-lawful.
There doesnt seem to be any particular reason for it. Paladins being lawful good... I can understand, clerics being close to their god... makes sense.... bards- who in many cultures are leaders, lorekeepers, and members and makers of "the law", and barbarians... *spreads hands*.
As classes that espouse personal freedom, individuality and spontaneity; I'd say they fall closer to chaos than law really. They may be an asset to a lawful society but that in itself does not make them lawful.
I think orcs are Lawful evil as a race, with chaotic evil and lawful neutral being common deviations. Primitive "barbarian" cultures are often rather lawful, and what fluff Ive read on both tolkien and dnd orcs seems to uphold a lawful point of veiw.
I'd like to hear some of your background reading that has given you this impression of tolkien and dnd orcs.
I think you may be confusing honour or respect for a lawful mentality. An orc babarian may treat an opponent in an honourable but this is out of respect for the individual essence he sees in another being, not a codified set of behaviour that he abides by.
A questing knight and a barbarian on a vision-quest may both treat each other with equal amounts of respect and behave in an honourable fashion. However both behaviours are coming from two different world-views, one subjective, one objective.
Now when either side attempts to explain the others behaviour we can see how confusion arises:
The knight treats all fights and parts of his life with a discipline and custom that he believes all beings deserve. This may come from his own personal code, his religion or even anothers laws. The knight extends his laws to all beings equally seeing, one can either meet his standards or not, but has no bearing on what he believe is the right course for him to follow.
The Barbarian treats all things with respect to their individual characteristics, he treats the mountains as one should treat a mountain, a badger as a badger and a knight as a knight. He identifies a trait within another and acts accoerdingly to that trait - this will manifest in anumber of ways depending on the entity encountered.
The difference of world-views can be summarised(loosely) as
Lawful: An objective crature in a subjective world.
Chaotic: A subjective creature in an objective world.
Id also point out that they dont serve under the big scary overlord because theyre intimidated into it. They most often serve the big scary overlord because as an "evil" group they want to take for themselves what they can get from others. As a chaotic evil theyd be as likely to kill the bbeg as the townsfolk, as he has cool stuff, theres more of them than him, and he *usually* has to sleep sometime.
This is invaribly what happens in orcish culture....if one is not strong enough to keep what he has then he does not deserve it. This results in the tribal societies orcs have, an orc rules through being the most capable at realising a clans goal of conflict, pillaging etc (evil actions in a chaotic manner), if the leader is not suited to this then others will challenge his place.
As a lawful standard they follow him because theyve agreed to, bought into the waaagh in a similar fashion to norsemen going aviking- a strong arm and a stout back in service in return for a share of the pillaging and if theres conquering to be done a bit of the land for themselves.
Its a simple arrangment, and a time honored contract. Lawful evil to a fault.
Again, this is a good example of chaotic practices (however maybe norsemen are not particulary analagous to orcs). You seem to have missed out the crux of your side of the argument here though, why they have agreed to follow. You seem to equate doing things for personal gain as Lawful
...peculiar. A Lawful reason would be an objective unifying purpose...eg. loyalty to king and country, a shared sense of duty etc.Again I will say: Just because a group of creatures are working together do not assume they are therefore Lawful.
Id also point out that they dont serve under the big scary overlord because theyre intimidated into it.
-Sure they do. Read, and apply, the dogma of Gruumsh, which invariably, dicates what Orc society is and is not.
Oh, wait......
I'm really interested in seeing how they change this, considering the orc's main patron is still chaotic evil and the rest of their pantheon is gone/retconned away. My guess is it is a "dm fiat" kind of answer - wee magical macguffin makes orcs all over the world good - rather than another messy retcon.
This is just a change so they can introduce a new, player friendly (ie non-evil for PoL) orc as a player character.
Oh, wait......
-Well...We've taken it to the next level, here.
I'd like to hear some of your background reading that has given you this impression of tolkien and dnd orcs.
Dragon #62, The Half-Orc, by Roger Moore:
"Orcs are the ultimate social Darwinists; only the strong and the clever survive... Orcs have no respect for those weaker than themselves...
"Orcs are like this because of the influence of their deities... and because of their own past. Sages have uncovered much evidence showing that orcs developed in regions generally hostile to life; survival was difficult, and only if a group worked closely together could it hope to collect enough food to get even a part of its numbers through the year. While the group would have to work together to collect food, distributing it was another matter. The strongest orcs got the most food, and the weakest ones got none at all (they were probably going to die anyway, right?)"
In short, according to Moore, who helped mold the first real ideologies of all the player races, the orcs may embrace a brutal and cruel way of life, but it's (fairly) orderly and "lawful," as opposed to "chaotic."
Grummsh then teaches the LG Orcs to goto the 'civilized' world and make sure they are following the Law and being good to each other and if they are not show them the proper Orcish Paladin way of enforcing LG...
As classes that espouse personal freedom, individuality and spontaneity; I'd say they fall closer to chaos than law really. They may be an asset to a lawful society but that in itself does not make them lawful.
I'd like to hear some of your background reading that has given you this impression of tolkien and dnd orcs.
I think you may be confusing honour or respect for a lawful mentality. An orc babarian may treat an opponent in an honourable but this is out of respect for the individual essence he sees in another being, not a codified set of behaviour that he abides by.
Who says that Barbarians promote freedom, individuality, or spontaneity? Frankly the ability to survive the elements and get a huge adrenaline surge doesnt mean spontaineous- it means theyve adapted to having to overcome significant physical and enviromental challenges. As for bards, a court bard who sings the praises of whoevers in power, writes what hes told to, and in general helps support that status quo is quite easily lawful, and likely lawful evil or neutral- he supports the structure, and does his best to abide by the way of doing things even if he creates art in the process that doesnt make him chaotic.
As for my readings on orcs *shrugs* the vast majority of tolkien, a number of forgotten realms books, some of the FR sourcebooks, warhammer, and one or two stand alone books that included orcs in them as a matter of course. The veiws on these creatures is different in each, but compare if you will an Warhammer orc to an FR orc and youll see a significantly more lawful stance.
FR orcs, in general, seem to work together to survive. They have set ways of doing things, set ways of determining command, religous dogma, and deffinite mindsets about other cultures that normaly has no individual basis. Take if you will the entry on Gray Orcs from "Races of Faerun" where it talks about their religious fantacism, and their obedience to dogmas that were shattered thousands of years ago.
Saying that orcs arent lawful is like saying wolves arent lawful. Both respect might, but also value cunning and the ability to make life as easy and efficient for the group as possible. Both will descend from the hills when required, or go their own way when given the option. Both are often looked down on by people who dont know better and often suprise even those who think they know them well enough. Both are considered semi-primordial, or barbaric by their nature and lifestyle but upon inspection have distinct cultures and customs.
I think you underestimate the Orcs.
As for my comments about the class.... Orcs arent Neutral evil as a whole.... and the "Nonlawful" of the barbarian and bard doesnt deny the ability to be neutral, but it doesnt imply a huge tendency towards the chaotic. So orcs go from a general feeling of "Lawful Evil" to a general outline of "Chaotic Evil" overnight.
-Sure they do. Read, and apply, the dogma of Gruumsh, which invariably, dicates what Orc society is and is not.
Wich book would that be in, Ill see if I can find it.
But, just looking at it from a RW perspective, and alot of fantasy reading aside, why would they need to be intimidated?
Look at vikings, saxons, celts, mongols, sioux, crow, cherokee, wolves, gorillas, streetgangs, mafias, and middleschoolers.
Do they need to be intimidated into doing things arent nice? No... they can be, but its far from a requirement. Oftentimes theyll see the oppurtunity to do something, to get something, to survive *depending on the group* and theyll jump on it. The person that they see as giving them the best chance, or most consistant and stable pattern, will naturally draw followers. Wether thats out of being big and scary, smart and cunning, or simply charisma... or some mix of the above- it doesnt matter, theyll become leaders.
Orcs want things that they normally have a hard time getting in the warrents and outlands- Food, wealthy, luxury goods, and a way to express their frustrations that others have these things and take them for granted. A big orc, a smart orc, or a creature like the fiendish orcs comes along and gives them a purpose, or shows them they have an edge and they beg for a place to sign on.
After all, it beats sitting at home waiting for a deer to come by and wondering when a frost giants going to split your head open, eh?
Who says that Barbarians promote freedom, individuality, or spontaneity?
-The fact that their alignment must be 'Chaotic', which comes with certain connotations defined in the PHB.
Take if you will the entry on Gray Orcs from "Races of Faerun" where it talks about their religious fantacism, and their obedience to dogmas that were shattered thousands of years ago.
-We're mainly discussing Mountain Orcs here, and not Gray Orcs, since the major developments concerning Orcish society lately has been dealing with Mountain Orcs, who are the majority.
Wich book would that be in, Ill see if I can find it.
-Faiths and Pantheons.
I actually disagree with the rule that says barbarians can't be lawful either, for that matter. To me, that implies that people need to be civilized in order to be "lawful", which I disagree with. If people like those rules, that's fine--I don't want to get into a huge argument about it, I'm just stating what I think.
-The fact that their alignment must be 'Chaotic', which comes with certain connotations defined in the PHB.
Actually, I think the restriction is just "any non-lawful alignment".
As far as bards go, I do disagree with the 3E rule that says they can't be lawful, as I can easily conceive of a lawful bard (if rogues can be any alignment, why not bards?).
I actually disagree with the rule that says barbarians can't be lawful either, for that matter. To me, that implies that people need to be civilized in order to be "lawful", which I disagree with. If people like those rules, that's fine--I don't want to get into a huge argument about it, I'm just stating what I think.
the reason that barbarian can't be lawful is because if they are they can't rage. it has nothing to do with being civil or not. I think
also there's a feat that let bards be LG and multiclass freely w Pal (I however agree with you on the lawful bard thing, and the barbarian for that matter)
As far as bards go, I do disagree with the 3E rule that says they can't be lawful, as I can easily conceive of a lawful bard (if rogues can be any alignment, why not bards?).
IIRC, and this is definitely not a full explanation, but: There has been an argument going on for a very long time about the alignment restrictions for bards. I believe that, at one time, in one of the Best of Dragons (II?), someone was laying out a new variant for the bard, which gave up on the then requirement that the PC advance 5-7 levels as a fighter, then 4-6 levels as a thief, before finally starting in at bard level 1.
As part of that, the writer was mentioning that there were 2 ways of looking at the bard. If you took a Celtic perspective, you saw them as a part of the establishment; that in fact, they'd most probably be lawful. He felt that the original designers who came up with the bard (whether that was EGG or someone else, I don't recall anymore) had been looking at the bard from an Anglo-Saxon perspective, where the bard was seen as something of a Gypsy, a "rogue" as it were, unwilling to bend to the law. Or, to be more blunt, to steal. In essence, "chaotic."
I hope that helps - my mind feels a bit like it's melting. The article that I'm thinking of starts out with a DM talking with 2 orcs or half-orcs (Jake pops to mind) about the bard, before going into his rationale for the changes. All 1E goodness.
Edit: That's Dragon #56, from, heh, December 1981; the article is called, "Bards: Singing a New Tune," by Jeff Goelz. I chuckle, because many, if not most of you, were probably not even born. And more specifically, he points out that the Welsh viewed their bards far differently than the English, who, of course, came up with the term "welshing" (as in welshing on a bet) as an expression for typical Welsh behavior. He suggests replacing the thief-based abilities of the bard with those of an illusionist (if you recall, that was a separate sub-class of the magic-user in 1E) and a druid, embracing the Celtic aspect.
-The fact that their alignment must be 'Chaotic', which comes with certain connotations defined in the PHB.
Im sorry, but thats circular logic- The PHB states that barbarians must be chaotic, wich makes sense because the barbarian supports freedom and individuality and spontaineity because the PHB says they have an alignment restriction. Bollocks to that.
As for the comment about "then they cant rage" Its just like a paladin loosing his class abilities- except it has no thematic nessecity. Ive seen some very, very "civil" people fly into a rage, and some very civilised people who werent at all civil- and history has many examples of both.
-
-We're mainly discussing Mountain Orcs here, and not Gray Orcs, since the major developments concerning Orcish society lately has been dealing with Mountain Orcs, who are the majority.
I was asked about what I had read about orcs... Gray Orcs are orcs, whatever their numbers or origins. As would be Sharakim for that matter.
-
-Faiths and Pantheons.
Thank you.
Dragon #62, The Half-Orc, by Roger Moore:
"Orcs are the ultimate social Darwinists; only the strong and the clever survive... Orcs have no respect for those weaker than themselves...
"Orcs are like this because of the influence of their deities... and because of their own past. Sages have uncovered much evidence showing that orcs developed in regions generally hostile to life; survival was difficult, and only if a group worked closely together could it hope to collect enough food to get even a part of its numbers through the year. While the group would have to work together to collect food, distributing it was another matter. The strongest orcs got the most food, and the weakest ones got none at all (they were probably going to die anyway, right?)"
In short, according to Moore, who helped mold the first real ideologies of all the player races, the orcs may embrace a brutal and cruel way of life, but it's (fairly) orderly and "lawful," as opposed to "chaotic."
It seems your conclusion does not quite follow from your example. Taking the line that Orc society has a structure therefore it is lawful is not entirely correct. One must look at why that structure has formed, and Moore has given us all the tools to see why.
Orcs exist within a preset number of circumstances: religious, enviromental, historical, and social....how they deal with these factors is manifested through their alignment. "The strongest orcs got the most food, and the weakest ones got none all" - Essentially you take what you want as long as you are able. This is expressed in every aspect of their society; Grummsh dogma, surviving 'by any means neccasary' in hostile enviroments, warring with any races that they can, and tribal/clan structure.
Thanks for the excerpt.
Im sorry, but thats circular logic- The PHB states that barbarians must be chaotic, wich makes sense because the barbarian supports freedom and individuality and spontaineity because the PHB says they have an alignment restriction. Bollocks to that.
It's not really circualr it's more square logic. Each class has a dependant premise - Babarians are characteristically wild and free, this premise is partly based on existing alignment classifications. Chaotic broadly sets out the type of behaviour that is similar to the characteristics of a barbarian. The classes were designed with alignment in mind. A class that reflects the nature of a chaotic character can be seen in the babarian, just as a monk expouses the ideals found in a Lawful character.
This logic is dependant on itself to explain itself. Barbarian is X and Chaos is also X therefore Barbarians connected via X to Chaos(loosely). Babarian does not share X with Lawful therefore it is not connected to Lawful.
As for the comment about "then they cant rage" Its just like a paladin loosing his class abilities- except it has no thematic nessecity. Ive seen some very, very "civil" people fly into a rage, and some very civilised people who werent at all civil- and history has many examples of both.
I think the rage in the case of the Barbarian class ability is abit of a misnomer....it is not simply an angry person fighting. Rage as seen in the babarian is a voluntary state of battle frenzy(simialr to the celtic berzerker) that was attained not simply through sheer high emotion but by being able to use one's own mental and physical in a 'controlled' release. Something gained by many years of understanding about ones own nature and abilites.
Actually, I think the restriction is just "any non-lawful alignment".
This is indeed the case, Chaotic is merely a tendency for both Babarians and bards, not a prerequisite. Just as orcs only have a tendancy to be Chaotic evil. It is entirely possible to find a neutral good Barbarian Orc. Orcs can be Lawful it's just barbarian orcs can't.
I was asked about what I had read about orcs... Gray Orcs are orcs, whatever their numbers or origins. As would be Sharakim for that matter.
To be fair, we have been discussing orcs under the assumption of the standard D&D or FR Mountain orc, any deviation from this race to serve as an example of a Lawful orc serves only to highlight that Lawful behaviour is the exception and not the norm. Twould be like saying look at these Evil drow elf, this shows that all elves are evil...when in fact drow are the exception that prove the rule.
Again to echo what has been stated before, no one is saying Lawful orcs can't(or indeed don't) exist just that on the whole they tend towards Chaotic. A chaotic orc is bred not born(best not ot go into that topic yet though). Orc society is based on chaotic principles which are sustained by the chaotic orcs that it breeds.
I find this the telling part of orcish society (and it's future). Given enough time or enough orcs (see Shakespearean monkeys) eventually one will arise with the properties suited to ending the cycles and establishing a stable kingdom.
This is where we see the justification for the orc redemption, the very nature of their often chaotic evil society means that something like this will happen in the end.
Is this the destination of all orcish lands, maybe. It is the maintainence of such a Lawful nation that is probably still uncertain (and potentially unfeasible).
I think I should leave this here for now. I'm probably not going to be able to post on these boards for some while yet(due to certain logistical issues)
. Hopefully I can come back to some more enjoyable discussions in the future. thanks for letting me ramble on.Eli the Tanner
Any societal group simply by its nature will display some level, however primative, of organization, simply as a survival mechanism for itself. Its when that societal organization achieves a formal and consistent structure of legal codes and governance that it shifts to being a lawful society. Codes of personal honor aren't quite the same thing however... A Knight's honor code, for instance, is one thing, as those tend to be written-down, formal, and very codified and enforceable through a penal system of some variety (commit X infraction, do Y penance sort of thing). The Barbarian's on the other hand tends to be societally ingrained and enforced not through a series of laws and codes, but through societal pressure and custom. You're not going to find a paper laying about a Barbarian's camp telling you what is honorable and what is dishonorable, as its been ingrained from birth into them, and its just understood. Same thing when it comes down to it in practice, but gone about (and thought of) in very different ways.
I was asked about what I had read about orcs... Gray Orcs are orcs, whatever their numbers or origins. As would be Sharakim for that matter.
-Yes, and as I said, we are specifically talking about Mountain Orcs making a "redemption", and not Gray Orcs. The information concerning the two subraces mixes just as well as information about Sun Elves and Moon Elves.
I would think the name barbarian in and of itself should probably be our first clue that they aren't likely to be lawful... honorable perhaps, with a somewhat structured society even, but structure is a prerequisite for a society of any variety, otherwise its just not really a society, and not necessarily indicative of a lawful bent. I think the point of it is that they tend to rely on oral traditions rather than written, legalistic societal codes that points the most towards them being 'chaotic' sorts. The jarl or chief or whatever maintains his or her position so long as they are strong and/or wise, and as soon as that's no longer the case, the most potent challenger usually steps up to claim that position, at least as far as the classic barbarian society of fantasy goes. Ordered and organization are not the same thing as lawful, which I think is the source of confusion for a lot of people.
While I do agree with you that "ordered and organization" per se, are not equivalent with a lawful alignment, they can be indicative of a lawful bent. Replacing a leader that has grown weak is not inherently chaotic, either.
Let's take a classic chaotic evil creature: the vampire. A vampire is inherently solitary - when you encounter more than one, it's because there is one that is actively dominating the others. The moment that domination is removed, the other will rebel. They have no inherent sense of order, but they can be organized. They follow orders, but only because to not do so is impossible without serious physical or mental harm. The truly classic chaotic evil creature doesn't see rigid organization as a legitimate means of creating society. It only obeys out of fear.
On the other hand, a traditionally lawful evil creature, like an orc, can be taken out from under the immediate thumb of its superior, and, because the orc has an "inherent sense of order," their view of the status quo is unlikely to change. The orc follows orders because, in his mind, that's what a being in his position does. He may aspire to more, and may take more, but that doesn't make him unlawful. Murdering your superior and taking his place isn't chaotic, it's the nature of orcish life. The weak are displaced by the strong. The weak obey the strong. Not out of fear (at least not in and of itself), but because to the lawful evil creature, that is what is best for all.
This shouldn't come as terribly surprising to Americans, at least - this is how capitalism works, after all. But, as in modern capitalism, there are rules. If, for example, an orc sub-chieftain were to murder a chieftain during battle with an enemy, that would most likely be seen as illegitimate. It would put the entire group at risk at a dangerous time. For a vampire in thrall to another, he doesn't care one whit about the group, or the fate of the master vampire - the only thing he cares about is controlling his own fate.
I realize I'm probably rambling a bit. And, of course, to be honest, I had never even noticed until this thread came out that the 3E orc was listed as CE. They've always been LE before, which informs a lot of my thoughts on the question. (Though I don't necessarily see a peaceable orcish kingdom as a legitimate possibility.)
My point is that the difference between chaotic and lawful alignments can't be seen purely in the actions that a being takes, but only through an understanding of why it took those actions.
You do knowone of the example vampires in the 3.5 MM was a monk...
And the alignment was listed as "Always evil (any)." Hey, they changed orcs to chaotic evil in 3E - don't ask me to shill for WOTC in the way they deal with alignment in general, let alone with regard to class restrictions. I'm just laying out a line of thinking.
There's a whole lot that has come out of WOTC that's left me asking if logic is barred from the building.
As part of that, the writer was mentioning that there were 2 ways of looking at the bard. If you took a Celtic perspective, you saw them as a part of the establishment; that in fact, they'd most probably be lawful. He felt that the original designers who came up with the bard (whether that was EGG or someone else, I don't recall anymore) had been looking at the bard from an Anglo-Saxon perspective, where the bard was seen as something of a Gypsy, a "rogue" as it were, unwilling to bend to the law. Or, to be more blunt, to steal. In essence, "chaotic."
I hope that helps - my mind feels a bit like it's melting.
It does (and I believe I've heard about those types of historic bards), although my opinion remains the same.
Just as a rogue could be some type of "lawful diplomat", there's no reason why a bard couldn't be a lawful diplomat as well (or really, any other type of lawful keeper of lore and music).There are good reasons to think of barbarians as having a certain kind of freedom, granted, but I think it's a mistake for them to be thought of as inherently non-lawful. Not all "barbarians" are barbarians (as in the class), also, but barbarians are supposed to be coming from these non-civilized cultures.
Just as a rogue could be some type of "lawful diplomat", there's no reason why a bard couldn't be a lawful diplomat as well (or really, any other type of lawful keeper of lore and music).
I'm with you! If you think of the High Heralds, not to mention the herald PrC, you're looking at a group that embodies the concepts of Law.
I'm with you! If you think of the High Heralds, not to mention the herald PrC, you're looking at a group that embodies the concepts of Law.
Agreed.
I would like to add, as a general comment, that almost everytime I read about barbarian cultures in the Realms, in fiction, there is a definite focus on acting for the benefit of the tribe and NOT being free, independent or spontaneous. Many of these "uncivilized" tribes are also have inflexible rules and/or mores.
In many cases, historically, they took their 'honor' more seriously than city dwellers, since being kicked out of a nomadic 'barbarian' group was pretty much a death sentence.
The D&D tropes of 'all Monks must be Lawful' and 'all Barbarians and Bards must *not* be Lawful' is, IMO, a bit of a straightjacket. The FRCS got one thing very right when it provided sidebars full of 'exceptions' to the Monk and Paladin multi-classing rules (and the Druid special weapons rules for Mielikki).
I would have liked it if they went one step further and provided exceptions to the whole 'class / alignment' business. Those things were never significant balancing factors, just 'flavor,' which had no business being rules mechanics, IMO.
While I do agree with you that "ordered and organization" per se, are not equivalent with a lawful alignment, they can be indicative of a lawful bent. Replacing a leader that has grown weak is not inherently chaotic, either.
Any social creature will have a somewhat lawful bent, be they human, bee, orc, or wolf. That lawful bent is what aids them in establishing a social heirarchy in the first place.
Let's take a classic chaotic evil creature: the vampire. A vampire is inherently solitary - when you encounter more than one, it's because there is one that is actively dominating the others. The moment that domination is removed, the other will rebel. They have no inherent sense of order, but they can be organized. They follow orders, but only because to not do so is impossible without serious physical or mental harm. The truly classic chaotic evil creature doesn't see rigid organization as a legitimate means of creating society. It only obeys out of fear.
Vampires, as supernatural creatures, are not necessarily inherently social creatures, no matter what their 'base' species was. Quite the opposite. Generally, when brought together in groups, it is for the benefit of a single vampire, and has nothing to do with survival as a species or the pleasure of each others company. Not really a society, so using them as an example doesn't quite work, if you see what I'm saying.
My point is that the difference between chaotic and lawful alignments can't be seen purely in the actions that a being takes, but only through an understanding of why it took those actions.
This is something I completely agree with.
As to the rest, the main difference I see in Chaotic versus Lawful is that a Chaotic society sees no inherent value in social titles, and tends towards a meritocracy flavored by their moral outlook. Laws and customs that are no longer useful are discarded easily and are not especially rigid in their interpretation or application. Competancy is generally required to hold onto authority, however the society judges that, or the society will replace the incompetant without much in the way of qualms about it.
A Lawful society however, does see value in those social titles, respects the authority of the office rather than the individual, all of course flavored by moral outlooks. Laws and customs are rigid and well enforced, and are usually not easily discarded or particularly flexible in either interpretation or application. Incompetancy can thrive in a lawful society since it is not necessarily a requisite to seizing some amount of power, bureaucracies being
what they are, although obviously they don't persist for all that long... just longer than they would in a chaotic society.
I don't see a problem with Chaotic societies forming laws and customs, since they are largely required for a semi-organized group of people to function as a group... which goes back to that whole inherent lawful bent of social creatures point.
On another point, on barbarians being non-lawful, I tend to think of it as them respecting the laws and customs of their own tribe, but not necessarily seeing an inherent value in the laws and customs of 'civilized' folk. Their respect for authority is not a universal constant for them that is equally applied to every social structure.
Kind of like one of us travelling to a foreign nation and disregarding that nations laws and customs in favor of our own, and then being surprised when the local authorities take exception to that attitude... Not that Americans have ever done anything like that... ;) :D
http://www.thegameshop.ca/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=GW50%2D35
Vampires, as supernatural creatures, are not necessarily inherently social creatures, no matter what their 'base' species was. Quite the opposite. Generally, when brought together in groups, it is for the benefit of a single vampire, and has nothing to do with survival as a species or the pleasure of each others company. Not really a society, so using them as an example doesn't quite work, if you see what I'm saying.
I don't mean to take the vampire as a wonderful representation of how to order a chaotic evil society - I use the vampire purely as an example of what I might call a "purely" chaotic evil being. A red dragon would have worked just as well. Obviously, as you get into greater numbers of societal interactions, say for an ogre, you get a certain degree of greater cooperation, by necessity, but I believe my point about the legitimacy of power in the eyes of a chaotic vs. lawful being remains valid.
As to the rest, the main difference I see in Chaotic versus Lawful is that a Chaotic society sees no inherent value in social titles, and tends towards a meritocracy flavored by their moral outlook. Laws and customs that are no longer useful are discarded easily and are not especially rigid in their interpretation or application. Competancy is generally required to hold onto authority, however the society judges that, or the society will replace the incompetant without much in the way of qualms about it.
A Lawful society however, does see value in those social titles, respects the authority of the office rather than the individual, all of course flavored by moral outlooks. Laws and customs are rigid and well enforced, and are usually not easily discarded or particularly flexible in either interpretation or application. Incompetancy can thrive in a lawful society since it is not necessarily a requisite to seizing some amount of power, bureaucracies being
what they are, although obviously they don't persist for all that long... just longer than they would in a chaotic society.
That is interesting, because that is not at all how I would describe a true Lawful Good society, for example. A lawful good society ought to be meritocratic - bureaucracy is something that, in particular for the 1E was seen as particularly lawful neutral. The modrons were a prime example. Allowing someone to remain in power despite lacking the competence for the job, and therefore threatening society, seems distinctly not good.
And certainly, I do not see a chaotic evil society as being meritocratic. It's based on who can grab power now, and hold it for as long as possible, before it's taken by the next guy. It's not about who deserves it more, as it would be in a meritocracy, but rather, who can get it at this particular moment. In the truest sense of chaotic, there is no law or custom to discard in a chaotic society - in such a society, there is no such thing: everything is determined on a purely ad hoc basis.
Certainly, this is an argument that can go on for a very long time. (It has already, and I don't mean in this thread :D ) I do find it fascinating to see the ways that different people interpret what alignment means, and how the alignments are applied to the "world." What defines chaotic vs. lawful, particularly when mixed with the matrix of good, neutral, and evil becomes a very rich topic for argument, as long as we remember that we're dealing purely with a fantasy setting in which such things can be delineated.
You guys see the announcement? In 4th edition Grumush and Gond are the same dieties, just called different names by the various races. Now Orcs are actually very technologicly savy. They even have some of the 4th edition mini's already made...
http://www.thegameshop.ca/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=GW50%2D35
Those are NOT Orcs, they are Orks.
Big difference... not to mention wrong setting (and not even d20!).
I don't mean to take the vampire as a wonderful representation of how to order a chaotic evil society - I use the vampire purely as an example of what I might call a "purely" chaotic evil being. A red dragon would have worked just as well. Obviously, as you get into greater numbers of societal interactions, say for an ogre, you get a certain degree of greater cooperation, by necessity, but I believe my point about the legitimacy of power in the eyes of a chaotic vs. lawful being remains valid.
Never said it didn't actually... didn't mean to if you took it as such either. I was simply saying that for the purposes of discussion, a creature like a vampire doesn't work when discussing societies and their definitions.
That is interesting, because that is not at all how I would describe a true Lawful Good society, for example. A lawful good society ought to be meritocratic - bureaucracy is something that, in particular for the 1E was seen as particularly lawful neutral. The modrons were a prime example. Allowing someone to remain in power despite lacking the competence for the job, and therefore threatening society, seems distinctly not good.
Why I added in the caveat of morality altering the specifics a bit. I was actually using LN as the baseline for that definition, so you are correct in the interpretation... probably should have specified that more clearly than the moral outlook flavor bit. As to a lawful good society, ideally it should be meritocratic, but there's no such thing as an ideal government in practice. So, my point is that one could be incompetant and give a mediocre performance and not be replaced so long as one did not screw up too badly. As to bureaucracy, its a relatively efficient method of governance in a lot of respects so long as corruption doesn't set in. That moral outlook flavoring at work once more...
And certainly, I do not see a chaotic evil society as being meritocratic. It's based on who can grab power now, and hold it for as long as possible, before it's taken by the next guy. It's not about who deserves it more, as it would be in a meritocracy, but rather, who can get it at this particular moment. In the truest sense of chaotic, there is no law or custom to discard in a chaotic society - in such a society, there is no such thing: everything is determined on a purely ad hoc basis.
Of course its meritocratic. Its just what they define as a merit that changes. The strongest, however they choose to define that, is the one in charge. Certainly not a benign meritocracy. quite the opposite, but a meritocracy nonetheless. And I'd agree that in the truest sense, a chaotic society wouldn't have law or custom, but that's not too likely with a social creature who happens to be mortal... it tends to go against their nature, as society generally can't exist without some structure in it. Social creatures tend to create social heirarchies, at the very least roles of dominance and submission. That doesn't necessarily have to be violent, it can be quite benign really, but it still happens.
Certainly, this is an argument that can go on for a very long time. (It has already, and I don't mean in this thread :D ) I do find it fascinating to see the ways that different people interpret what alignment means, and how the alignments are applied to the "world." What defines chaotic vs. lawful, particularly when mixed with the matrix of good, neutral, and evil becomes a very rich topic for argument, as long as we remember that we're dealing purely with a fantasy setting in which such things can be delineated.
I've been having a great time with it, so I'd completely agree with that sentiment. :D
You guys see the announcement? In 4th edition Grumush and Gond are the same dieties, just called different names by the various races. Now Orcs are actually very technologicly savy. They even have some of the 4th edition mini's already made...
http://www.thegameshop.ca/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=GW50%2D35
-Damn you. I actually believed you for a second, and was clicking around, frantically looking for text other than those pictures, to explain what you were talking about.
-Never again...
I've been having a great time with it, so I'd completely agree with that sentiment. :D
Darn pain in the butt. Here it is Saturday evening and you want me to think!?!?
Where's the "sozzled" emoticon, darnit?-Damn you. I actually believed you for a second, and was clicking around, frantically looking for text other than those pictures, to explain what you were talking about.
-Never again...
:D
Saddly, with all that the WOTC has done, something like that almost becomes believable. Lol.
:D
Saddly, with all that the WOTC has done, something like that almost becomes believable. Lol.
-Yeah...A year or two ago, I would have said, "Yeah, whatever...
". Now, not so much.Capnvan - here, have another drink, and I'll just assume you're conceding the point. :D
Capnvan - here, have another drink, and I'll just assume you're conceding the point. :D
I've had several, sir! But the idea that I'd concede the point?! Just wait until I guzzle my way out of this booty, and get back to the question at hand, sir!
Pardon me if I stagger slightly in the meanwhile.
What a state of affairs 4e has wrought... even more depressing in that you're right, in that almost anything half-baked is frighteningly plausible.
Meet the new priest of Grond...
Using his deity's chosen weapon - the Rod of automatic missile fire. :D
-There are ladies in this thread.
-Can we please attempt to justify the Orc redemption, please?
What does the presence of ladies have to do with anything?
I think it's 'cuz the icky, mysterious white stuff looks like ****!:P
I think it's 'cuz the icky, mysterious white stuff looks like ****!:P
Someone had to say it. You all should be ashamed that it had to be our intern princess who had to step up and say it...
Someone had to say it. You all should be ashamed that it had to be our intern princess who had to step up and say it...
-I feel so low...Just put me out of my misery...:surrender
It's not a big deal!
I just thought it was a tattered battlefield standard or something... you guys are sick. :P
No, imaginative.:P
No, imaginative.:P
*Rowr*
I just thought it was a tattered battlefield standard or something... you guys are sick. :P
imagine the pole flying it.
*Rowr*
-Uh-uh...
imagine the pole flying it.
You are going to BURN for that, MT!
she took this thing back down an unsavory path, and I just wanted to show you 'kids' where such immoral thoughts lead to. :P
Its called 'Good Parenting'...
"Scared Straight" style. ;)
Blame it on Rino -
-No, I blame you. :P
Geez, just for all that, I'm going to torture you with another 'sexy Orc pic'
Courtesy of Orc Magazine, publisher of PlayOrc (no, I'm not joking).
I aprove!Courtesy of Orc Magazine, publisher of PlayOrc (no, I'm not joking).
Luckily I took the liberty of purchasing a braille keyboard for just such an event as my eyeballs have flipped 180 degrees in thier sockets solely as an effort for self preservation
Star Trek used to make me think green women were cool, Playorc on the otherhand...
This is an orc! Ugly, filthy and about to eat children!
This is an orc! Ugly, filthy and about to eat children!
-Isn't that a Goblin? :P
You know what's funny? The place where all the Norwegian parties meet to discuss government's called Soria Moria.
Tolkien used the term as basically small orcs, but looked the same.
-Yes, I know. That's why I said what I said. ;)
The smaller stature made them better suited to living in caves, at least that's why I always assumed the subterranean Tolkien Orcs were called Goblins.
And Urak-Hai were the even bigger, badder versions (like Orogs, or Bugbearss).
Technically, a Hobgoblin should just be an Orc, but D&D kind of screwed that one up. Unless Orcs are a seperate race, there really isn't a need for both. Maybe Hobgoblins were originally Orc/Goblin crossbreeds (in D&D) that bred true.
Star Trek used to make me think green women were cool, Playorc on the otherhand...
Just for you, then -
Green Women are SO HOT! :P
EDIT:
Found one!!! :D
-Ugh, what am I doing? Don't give him ammunition...
Those women obviously aren't orcs.:P
-Straploknight said before that he has some kind of thing for green women...I don't get it, but...
Couldn't find one from Enterprise - the newer (older?) ones are more green (like the women from Orion were supposed to be).
Green Women are SO HOT! :P
EDIT:
Found one!!! :D
Heh, come on FTL travel!
-Straploknight said before that he has some kind of thing for green women...I don't get it, but...
LOL, I don't really get that either, but everyone has their own tastes.
LOL, I don't really get that either, but everyone has their own tastes.
-The best response, I think, is probably, "Whatever..."
:P
And just for you, LK...
That was one of the few I could post that wouldn't get me in trouble. Thank You LK - I just discovered a brand-new (for me) niche 'kink'. You'd be amazed at how many incredibly beautiful women paint themselves green (or are photo-manipulated) for web shots...
And most of them are Nakey.
I'll be logging off for awhile..... :P
And just for you, LK...
-I think I'll pass.
That was one of the few I could post that wouldn't get me in trouble. Thank You LK - I just discovered a brand-new (for me) niche 'kink'. You'd be amazed at how many incredibly beautiful women paint themselves green (or are photo-manipulated) for web shots...
And most of them are Nakey.
I'l be logging off for awhile..... :P
-Um...Glad I could help? -_-;
Only a few ways can we make this geekier. One is sharing this video.
Bizarrely, I also used this video in a Church E-mail to explain the hysteria over the occult and demonic stuff of D&D (yes, it still exists---but mostly they seem to be confusing White Wolf LARPers with D&D in they were worried about black lipstick wearing Goths having sex in cemetaries).
Admittedly, it's a bit self-mocking but it is hilarious and resembles some truly sad moments before I discovered how not to scare off girls and my acne cleared up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdXG2gV01k
I also recommend people check out the Dragonstrike review by the Spoony One on Youtube (the guy swears a bit, so I don't know if I'm allowed to link from there). That's disturbingly how I started D&D.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHdXG2gV01k
-Yeah, I saw that one before. Funny.
Here's the original Dragonstrike video.
Seriously, I like to think I got into D&D inspite of this intro.
-I'll never see my DM as a person again. Just a disembodied, floating head...Yuck.
Relax. That could never happen in real life.