Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ripvanwormer Mar 16, 2009 0:26:44	According to here and here, Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun had a grandson who left Toril to go live on Oerth. Is this mentioned in a published source somewhere?
#2 sfdragon Mar 16, 2009 0:37:52	its listed in the GHOTR, and I think IIRC the LEOF book, or was it the waterdeep book...... anyway, before you ask, his fate is NDA'd.
#3 suin_bahhar_02 Mar 16, 2009 14:01:40	Why is it Khelben was not a problem for campaigns but Elminster was? Not baiting or anything... But Khelben was awesome. Yet more invisible than old Elminster. The real Batman of Waterdeep. Would the grandson Khelben on Oerth be as influential as his grandfather was?
#4 lord_karsus Mar 16, 2009 14:06:42	Why is it Khelben was not a problem for campaigns but Elminster was? Not baiting or anything... -Khelben doesn't have a book series with his name it it (though he does feature prominently in many novels). Khelben was much more adept, I think, at manipulating than Elminster- the fact that he is as influential, if not more, than Elminster, but not as widely known, demonstrates this. And, at least Khelben has reason to be known Faerûnian-wide, as the Lord of Blackstaff Tower, Archmage of Waterdeep, and (former) Lord of Waterdeep.
#5 suin_bahhar_02 Mar 16, 2009 14:21:07	Indeed. I think most players would be mindfull to fear the Blackstaffs meddling more than anything Elminster would do to them. Blackstaff (ab)uses parties for his needs. Elminster just gives goodnatured advice. ^^
#6 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Mar 16, 2009 14:32:46	Indeed. Elminster just gives goodnatured advice. ^^ Or so you think.:P
#7 markustay63 Mar 16, 2009 15:36:13	Yes, it has been mentioned in at least one source (I read that long-before ever participated on any FR boards or even became an FR fan - I was runnig Oerth/GH at the time). Its also been mentioned officially by Ed, and I think a couple of others, over the years, but nothing more was elaborated on other then the Khelben WE know is really posing as his own Granson, so the woman everyone knows as his daughter is realy his mother! Which leads me to believe that bit must have been in a Waterdeep source... Most likely the EARLIEST one...
#8 faraer Mar 16, 2009 18:57:22	Khelben "Ravencloak" Arunsun was first set out in this article by Eric Boyd, inspired by his noticing that Khelben was said to be born to Lhestyn and Zelphar (yes, in FR1) but elsewhere to be much older.
#9 markustay63 Mar 16, 2009 20:16:37	When was that written? I have been a Realms DM for some numbert of years, and I have known about this piece of lore for a LONG time, but I've only been a FR Fanboi' for the past three years - I would have never read an online-article before three years ago. And like I said, this is something I remember from WAY BACK (when I was just switching form GH to FR).
#10 faraer Mar 16, 2009 20:33:04	Mid-1990s, some of Eric's first disseminated Realms work.
#11 markustay63 Mar 16, 2009 20:35:52	Okay - thats what I was thinking - sometime around '94 or '95 makes the most sense to me, if memory serves. Still, it had to appear in a sourcebook, since I didn't read D&D articles online at all until recently. I checked through the 2e Waterdeep stuff, and I couldn't even find his entry!
#12 old_sage Mar 17, 2009 7:15:09	Faraer has the right of it. Eric's article established a Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger as a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is.
#13 markustay63 Mar 17, 2009 10:51:41	But it HAS been made canon in a non-FR source, I'm fairly certain... and I'm on a mission to find it! :D Does 'greater D&D canon' still count as FR canon, so long as it pertains to FR? I would imagine so, if its in a TSR product.
#14 ripvanwormer Mar 17, 2009 12:25:46	Faraer has the right of it. Eric's article established a Khelben "Ravenscloak" Arunsun the Younger as a mage of Greyhawk. That's never been confirmed in any FR product however -- the "Greyhawk" part that is. Maybe not confirmed, but the Greyhawk part has been explicitly suggested in The Code of the Harpers (1993), page 48 ("He settled in another world (Oerth, Elminster suspects) to make his own life."). And since Eric Boyd cites that book in his article, the Oerth connection must have originally been Ed Greenwood's idea, not his.
#15 old_sage Mar 17, 2009 18:08:14	But it HAS been made canon in a non-FR source, I'm fairly certain... and I'm on a mission to find it! :D I have no doubts on that. ;) Does 'greater D&D canon' still count as FR canon, so long as it pertains to FR? I would imagine so, if its in a TSR product. I'd say on a "case by case" basis. Not every piece of D&D canon is FR canon and not every piece of FR canon is D&D canon. So I'd be very careful with this assumption overall.
#16 old_sage Mar 17, 2009 18:13:44	Maybe not confirmed, but the Greyhawk part has been explicitly suggested in The Code of the Harpers (1993), page 48 ("He settled in another world (Oerth, Elminster suspects) to make his own life."). Yes, I recall that bit. It *is* possible that this is among the first "explicitly suggested" references in the Realmslore for Ravencloak's destination. I don't immediately recall seeing it mentioned elsewhere. And since Eric Boyd cites that book in his article, the Oerth connection must have originally been Ed Greenwood's idea, not his. I can't ask Eric, as he's too busy at the moment. But I'll ask Ed.