-What do you consider "now"? 1,375 DR? 1,479 DR?
lol, LK, you may not like it, but 'now' is 4e FR.
So, he/she means 1479 DR.
So, he/she means 1479 DR.
-Only if he/she doesn't mean 1,375 DR. Remember, a great deal of people who come here to post do so because they don't know what's going on.
-In either case, an apt answer would be: "Not much."
-We don't know where he is, what he's been up to, and so on. Unfortunate, but that's how it is. Presumably, he is still among the liv-...unliving. He may or may not still be living in Warlock's Crypt. The Spellplage, in some cases, was drawn to areas of high magical concentration (Halruaa), and in other cases, was repelled by areas of high magical concentration (Evereska).
-Only if he/she doesn't mean 1,375 DR. Remember, a great deal of people who come here to post do so because they don't know what's going on.
Right, and besides, these forums are supposed to edition-neutral.
-Only if he/she doesn't mean 1,375 DR. Remember, a great deal of people who come here to post do so because they don't know what's going on.
-In either case, an apt answer would be: "Not much."
Well said! I just came back to the boards today for the first time in over a year. I'm a 3e guy still, but I'm curious to know what's going on.
IMO, Larloch has never been detailed too much due to the fact that when he was originally written into FR lore by Ed, he was created as a enigma who was "just there" and not to be messed with. Some people on the old boards got carried away with trying to stat Larloch out, but I think he's best used as fairy tale NPC.
That said, when someone does decide to drop a tidbit about Larloch in post spell plague FR, it will be small, yet juicy tidbit that gets a sly smile from FR fans.
That said, when someone does decide to drop a tidbit about Larloch in post spell plague FR, it will be small, yet juicy tidbit that gets a sly smile from FR fans.
-Not necessarily. If an author/designer writes something along the lines of, "Larloch, after the death of Mystra, turned to despair and began worshiping Shar, the lady of loss. In [Insert Date], Shar's whisperings finally drove Larloch completely insane. He assaulted [Insert Location]. He did a great deal of damage, but in the end, his body was destroyed. The defenders of [Insert Location], knowing of Larloch's temporary weakness, were able to enter into Warlock's Crypt and destroy his phylactery, ending one of Faerûn's greatest evils", I don't think many people will be giving any sly smiles.
-Not necessarily. If an author/designer writes something along the lines of, "Larloch, after the death of Mystra, turned to despair and began worshiping Shar, the lady of loss. In [Insert Date], Shar's whisperings finally drove Larloch completely insane. He assaulted [Insert Location]. He did a great deal of damage, but in the end, his body was destroyed. The defenders of [Insert Location], knowing of Larloch's temporary weakness, were able to enter into Warlock's Crypt and destroy his phylactery, ending one of Faerûn's greatest evils", I don't think many people will be giving any sly smiles.
Ah but you're wrong Karsus.... :evillaugh
Let's just say you were spot on in that little paragraph. It would, in my mind, stick it in & break it off to many a player who fancied themself a expert of the FR and a prophet of Ed Greenwood.
I remember some of the posts in the old forums that got downright nasty; Larloch junkies quoting musings of Ed that Larloch shouldn't be messed with & that he could blow up Faerun should he choose to.
I know I've been away for a long time, but I remember you LK (same old avatar- I respect that), and I think you remember the threads I'm talking about ;)
Ah, the good old days of "debates" on the FR forums....
Ah but you're wrong Karsus.... :evillaugh
-Good point. For as much as I think the above that I wrote is stupid, I don't like Larloch much either, so it all balances out.
I know I've been away for a long time, but I remember you LK (same old avatar- I respect that), and I think you remember the threads I'm talking about ;)
-I'd never want to change my avatar! Not too many other people have it, I've had it from day one...It's become me. I never understand why people do.
Ah, the good old days of "debates" on the FR forums....
-Too many of the people who used to commonly contribute and get into good debates have left, many willingly, while others have just dropped off the face of the earth as is common on the internet. Man, as you said, if more good debates could get kicked off, the boards would be awesome again. That's the purpose of 'em.
Is the old forums 3.5 NPC gallery still up here somewhere? A lot of people put a lot of work into those write-ups.
does anyone know what happened to larloch? he was rather the only likable lich i read about...
Seeing as how Wizards has been rather sparse with details concerning many realms individuals that were alot more active and politically prominent than he it would surprise me to see them release any official word ever about his whereabouts and current plans.
I was somewhat disappointed that he didn't even seem to bat an eye when Netheril all of a sudden("sudden" for a 2000 year old lich) just came back and established themselves, and that the princes of shade didn't try to approach him (perhaps they did but we/I are not privy to the details?). Certainly a surviving netherese archwizard would not escape the knowledge of Telamont or Brennus divinations.
I am sure it was simply more convenient to just pretend that he did not exist;>
-Even if they did, Larloch seems the type to tell them where to shove it. During the heights of Netheril, Larloch and Telamont (as well as Aumvor and Telamont) could have been bitter rivals, for all we know.
Well, they could as well have been the best friends. However, you're right. Of all the princes only Shadow comes close to Larloch in personal power, and I doubt that even all princes together could force Larloch to do anything.
Well, they could as well have been the best friends. However, you're right. Of all the princes only Shadow comes close to Larloch in personal power, and I doubt that even all princes together could force Larloch to do anything.
-Given the paranoia nature of enclave leaders, and the fact that, as we know, the Shadovar haven't made any reach outs to Larloch or Aumvor (presuming they know they both unlive, which isn't unlikely given how much they do know), I don't think they were ever friends.
-If push came to shove, the 12 Princes of Shade could very easily force Larloch to do their bidding. In Shadowrealm, Telamont, Brennus, Hadrhune, and an assorted random and unnamed Shadovar magicians bind Mephistopheles to do their bidding. Now, mind you, Mephistopheles was on the Material Plane, but a Mephistopheles on the Material Plane should still be leagues ahead of one Larloch.
-If push came to shove, the 12 Princes of Shade could very easily force Larloch to do their bidding. In Shadowrealm, Telamont, Brennus, Hadrhune, and an assorted random and unnamed Shadovar magicians bind Mephistopheles to do their bidding. Now, mind you, Mephistopheles was on the Material Plane, but a Mephistopheles on the Material Plane should still be leagues ahead of one Larloch.
That is a very good point. Even so wasn't Larloch described as "unassailable"
in his own stronghold with all the millenia spent improving his defenses with all kinds of contingencies etc?
Im sure I have forgotten the details since its been some time since I read the book but wasn't Mephistopheles there partly by own choice? Might have influenced the relative "ease" of the binding.
Im sure I have forgotten the details since its been some time since I read the book but wasn't Mephistopheles there partly by own choice? Might have influenced the relative "ease" of the binding.
-Maybe. Maybe not. Given how he reacted, I don't think he was allowing himself to be bound, by his own will. At least, not initially.
That is a very good point. Even so wasn't Larloch described as "unassailable"
in his own stronghold with all the millenia spent improving his defenses with all kinds of contingencies etc?
-'Unassailable' is definitely a relative term. Overall, given the two entities here, I'd still give the edge to a summoned Mephistopheles on the Material Plane than a Larloch in his own abode, with all of his helpers and defenses and what not. I am one of those people that believe that, just like the most pathetic Human can still step on the most massive, powerful ant, so too can the most minor of Demideities "step" on the most massive, powerful of Humans. In this case, Mephistopheles is a bit more than the most minor of Demideities.
He probably wouldn't be able to defeat them but I am sure he is capable enough to avoid capture and/or enslavement;>
12 Epic archmages with over 1,000yrs of practice in their art would get the job done, be it against Larloch in his crypt or any other lone being.
Not to sell Larloch short, he would make it costly for the shades to do so. That said, it is perhaps why they have yet to approach him. They realize he might rebuke their efforts to join them, in which case they would have to use force, at a severe cost of resources and perhaps lives (their own being the only ones of importance)
And on the note of who were rivals in Netheril- as I understand it, Shadow was a bit of an outcast with only one "friend" in Karsus (hey, if you're gonna have just one, why not him!)
Now Ioulaum is a whole new ballgame- the Shades have his apprentice Tabra. That's a real piece of realmslore I want to read about!
-I'd never want to change my avatar! Not too many other people have it, I've had it from day one...It's become me. I never understand why people do.
Truth! I've had mine since they implemented the option.
-Too many of the people who used to commonly contribute and get into good debates have left, many willingly, while others have just dropped off the face of the earth as is common on the internet. Man, as you said, if more good debates could get kicked off, the boards would be awesome again. That's the purpose of 'em.
I just recently started trolling these forums again. I stopped when they implemented that no commenting on any authors work or we'll ban you thing. It appears that's not the case any longer, thankfully.
As for Larloch...
He's never been anything but a campaign munchkin. What I would love to see would be some retro novels or source material detailing the origins of "these" NPC's. That would be good stuff, imo.
I agree that a material plane Mephistopheles should be more powerful then Larloch, what I am saying is that I doubt the princes could assault warlocks crypt to the point of forcing Larloch to do their bidding.
-Point was, if they can do it to Mephistopheles (seemingly) against his own will, they can certainly do the same to Larloch.
Now Ioulaum is a whole new ballgame- the Shades have his apprentice Tabra. That's a real piece of realmslore I want to read about!
-Meh. As it reads to me, he kind of 'abandoned' her. I mean, he went on and did what he did with all the Alhoon, and by the way she reacted, it doesn't seem to me that he keyed her on to what he was doing. If he told her what he was doing, I don't think she would have gone all postal on those Mindflayers.
Maybe I just like the guy, but I find it quite hard that even a group of the greatest Shades can just storm his castle and bring him to heel.
-Point was, if they can do it to Mephistopheles (seemingly) against his own will, they can certainly do the same to Larloch.
Yes but as I referred to earlier didn't Mephistopheles come through the gate of his own free will and was then "ambushed"?
I dont think even all the princes of shade could forcefully wrest him from Cania to do their bidding. So if they could similarly fool Larloch into stepping in a binding circle or something like that then yes, I agree with you:P
-If push came to shove, the 12 Princes of Shade could very easily force Larloch to do their bidding. In Shadowrealm, Telamont, Brennus, Hadrhune, and an assorted random and unnamed Shadovar magicians bind Mephistopheles to do their bidding. Now, mind you, Mephistopheles was on the Material Plane, but a Mephistopheles on the Material Plane should still be leagues ahead of one Larloch.
Actually, it's the most pointless debate we could just have.
Anyway, according to the official 3e rules, which where used for Shadowrealm, the princes of shade would be an equal match not only for Larloch or Mephi but for Larloch, Mephi, and all the other lords of the nine together.
Now, according to Ed Greenwood, Larloch, as a 46 lvl spellcaster (or not), and his gang of epic liches would wipe the floor with the princes.
Then, according to common sense and/or fan-made stats for the above mentioned guys, Mephi would be superior to the princes and to Larloch alike.
However, 'cause we're using canon, and Mephis latest write-up has a CR 24 and Larloch has a CR 34 it's far more likely that Shadow and the others force Mephi to do their bidding than they do with Larloch.
-Point was, if they can do it to Mephistopheles (seemingly) against his own will, they can certainly do the same to Larloch.
Again, no, not according to the rules, unfortunately.
-'Unassailable' is definitely a relative term. Overall, given the two entities here, I'd still give the edge to a summoned Mephistopheles on the Material Plane than a Larloch in his own abode, with all of his helpers and defenses and what not. I am one of those people that believe that, just like the most pathetic Human can still step on the most massive, powerful ant, so too can the most minor of Demideities "step" on the most massive, powerful of Humans. In this case, Mephistopheles is a bit more than the most minor of Demideities.
Essentially, you're right. The problem is that this, your logic isn't used here. Entities of incredible cosmic might, as Mephi one is, could be brought low by a group of high-level (not even epic!) mortal heroes. Thus, you're wrong. :D
But someone who is from the material plane , can't be bound in such circles as far as I know. So with someone as powerfull (or not?) as Larloch this would be a completly diffrent thing.
On the other hand we don't know what happend with Larloch after the spellplage and even before it we don't know much about him. Maybe he is one of the most powerfull beings on the material plane, maybe not. It's all to our imagination ;)
He's taking a break. All the research he has done over the years has really been a major drain on him. Oh, and the people trying to loot his tower continously. That was more of a minor drain.
He's undead... he's 24/7 man!
Actually, it's the most pointless debate we could just have.
Anyway, according to the official 3e rules, which where used for Shadowrealm, the princes of shade would be an equal match not only for Larloch or Mephi but for Larloch, Mephi, and all the other lords of the nine together.
Now, according to Ed Greenwood, Larloch, as a 46 lvl spellcaster (or not), and his gang of epic liches would wipe the floor with the princes.
Then, according to common sense and/or fan-made stats for the above mentioned guys, Mephi would be superior to the princes and to Larloch alike.
However, 'cause we're using canon, and Mephis latest write-up has a CR 24 and Larloch has a CR 34 it's far more likely that Shadow and the others force Mephi to do their bidding than they do with Larloch.
No debate is pointless, unless people lose their temper (which happened last time we tried talking about Larloch & the Shades. This isn't a "VS." thread, so everyone stop that train of thought. Just a few points to support my standpoint of "anything is possible"
- Larloch was left vague to make him fearsome. Knowledge is power- so not knowing much on Larloch makes him pretty fearsome.
- The shades are awesomely powerful, but they have some major chinks in their armor. (I won't get into those, as I am a fan of the princes based purely on the characterization of them in several novels, not stats)
- And as far as Ed's supra-lich write up of Larloch; that was a musing of his to answer some questions. Ed wrote that many moons ago, and it was his way of saying " i created a monster that is best left alone"- a mysterious part of the realms. Ed is a writer, not a game designer. FR was created long before D&D, Ed took what Gygax created & applied it to his stories. HE is admittedly not good with "crunch". You can't take stat references made by Ed too literally...
Again, no, not according to the rules, unfortunately.
Anything is possible, its just harder & unlikely that a mage could do it to Mephistopheles. Laws of the multiverse & whatnot, Iggwilv did it to Graz'zt, Shadow could do it to the Big M...
Essentially, you're right. The problem is that this, your logic isn't used here. Entities of incredible cosmic might, as Mephi one is, could be brought low by a group of high-level (not even epic!) mortal heroes. Thus, you're wrong. :D
Right & wrong, unless someone misquotes a rule from the PHB, are relative terms here. Opinion rules supreme... :P
Yes but as I referred to earlier didn't Mephistopheles come through the gate of his own free will and was then "ambushed"?
I dont think even all the princes of shade could forcefully wrest him from Cania to do their bidding. So if they could similarly fool Larloch into stepping in a binding circle or something like that then yes, I agree with you:P
-Like I said before, we don't know if he was being commanded against his will, or if he was going along with it. Given the way he reacted and struggled when it happened, I am of the opinion that he was indeed forced.
In my understanding with the correct binding circle you can hold every fiend or demon you summoned from another plane no matter how strong he is and those guys don't really know what to face when they step through a summoning portal. So if the princes somehow got Mephistopheles to step through the portal it wouldn't have been a big deal to trap him in a circle.
-Brennus intended to summon another Demon, initially, when Mephistopheles appeared. The Devil Brennus had wanted to summon had been put in the service of Mephistopheles, and Meph appeared in the Summoning circle, to explain that it was rude to summon Devil in his service, without asking, or something to that effect. The second time, it was Mephistopheles who was supposed to be summoned intentionally.
-Canon has examples of summoned beings ignoring things like Summoning circles. When the Coronal of Ilythiir summoned Wendonai, for example, the Balor walked out of the Summoning circle like it was nothing.
But someone who is from the material plane , can't be bound in such circles as far as I know. So with someone as powerfull (or not?) as Larloch this would be a completly diffrent thing.
On the other hand we don't know what happend with Larloch after the spellplage and even before it we don't know much about him. Maybe he is one of the most powerfull beings on the material plane, maybe not. It's all to our imagination ;)
-No, they can't be snared using a technique used to snare extraplanar things, but there are methods that can be used, such as Domination and all of those other spells.
-Canon has examples of summoned beings ignoring things like Summoning circles. When the Coronal of Ilythiir summoned Wendonai, for example, the Balor walked out of the Summoning circle like it was nothing.
Maybe it had a flaw?
-No, they can't be snared using a technique used to snare extraplanar things, but there are methods that can be used, such as Domination and all of those other spells.
Yes but those things got saving throws or break at Spellresistance or other immunities so its not impossible to do but a lot harder when you try to dominate someone very powerfull.
I havn't read Shadowrealm, so this are just some thoughts...
No debate is pointless, unless people lose their temper (which happened last time we tried talking about Larloch & the Shades. This isn't a "VS." thread, so everyone stop that train of thought. Just a few points to support my standpoint of "anything is possible"
Anything might be possible, but within which rules? And the real question is not if something is possible or not but rather how likely it is? And it's far more likely (within the official 3e rules that apply here) that Shadow forces Mephi than Larloch.
However, since this isn't really logical at all, we won't come to an agreement here regarding whether of not Shadow and the princes would be able to do the same to Larloch what they did to Mephi.
Anything is possible, its just harder & unlikely that a mage could do it to Mephistopheles. Laws of the multiverse & whatnot, Iggwilv did it to Graz'zt, Shadow could do it to the Big M...
Iggwilv had the appropriate epic spell. And in 3e both Mephi and Graz'zt are not as powerful as Larloch. So again, whether or not Shadow did it to Mephi (that was not the point, btw) it would take him at least more effort to do the same with Larloch (and I doubt he that he would succeed).
Maybe it had a flaw?
-It's only a flashback scene that lasts a few paragraphs. Nothing is mentioned.
Yes but those things got saving throws or break at Spellresistance or other immunities so its not impossible to do but a lot harder when you try to dominate someone very powerfull.
-Don't quote me on it, but creatures that are summoned get a Will save (I think) to break free of the control of the person/people that summon it.
Anyway, just don't take stats as genuine indicators of power. They're an abstraction to what's really happening in the world.
And in 3e both Mephi and Graz'zt are not as powerful as Larloch.
Given that his stats only apply for those of an aspect/avatar, rather than actually pertaining to his true form which doesn't have stats, an archfiend is going to take a summoner apart in most events.
Honestly in my opinion it's rather pointless IMO to attempt to mechanically define a living embodiment of an abstract alignment of that sort of power. Thanks to folks for spoiling Shadowrealm for me, which was one of the few FR novels I've purchased because it finished off a series. The depictions of fiends and archfiends in various FR books have been all over the map. Sometimes it's done well and meshes well with established flavor as it pertains to what they're capable of as archfiends, and in other cases they seem like overgrown balors that any level 20+ mage can easily call forth and bind to their will. That's unfortunate.
And if we want to quote stats, as mentioned, the stat blocks for archfiends is the bare bones minimum. Throw a few class levels maybe & up the HD to Mephisto, and now you're cooking with fire.
Laws of the multiverse & whatnot, Iggwilv did it to Graz'zt, Shadow could do it to the Big M...
*snicker* Not sure if Lord Shadow would want to do to M what Iggwilv did to (with...) Graz'zt.
*snicker* Not sure if Lord Shadow would want to do to M what Iggwilv did to (with...) Graz'zt.
hahahahaha... dirty mind....
now that's one HELL of a material component! (wow, what a nerd joke)
well, I guess we gotta start a nerd demonic sexual innuendo thread now..
WoooHooo!
hahahahaha... dirty mind....
Of course.;)
now that's one HELL of a material component! (wow, what a nerd joke)
Heehee.:D
another cheers to Rinonalyrna.