LK's Book Review: Shadowrealm

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

lord_karsus

Jan 28, 2009 8:26:14
Shadowrealm
The Twilight War, Book III
By Paul Kemp


-Ah, Shadowrealm. If you ask me, and so many other people, this book has been a long time coming. It sucked a whole bunch when it was pushed back from its tentative First Quarter 2008 release. Things have changed considerably concerning my view and opinions of the Forgotten Realms, but in retrospect, pushing the novel back is a welcome thing, now. As many of you know, I’m not particularly vocal in my dislike of where the authors and designers have taken the Forgotten Realms in the 4e era. Paul Kemp’s Twilight War trilogy is one that I still consider “classic Forgotten Realms”, and might just be the last current Forgotten Realms novel I purchase.

-The first thing I’ll touch on will be Abelar Corrinthal. I think it’s safe to assume that this character has had a ‘profound’ influence on my on D&D playing. One of my favorite characters- perhaps my favorite character- Alton Honeywell was created after reading Shadowstorm. While Alton, a Morninglord of Lathander, isn’t a copy and paste job of Abelar, Abelar certainly inspired the character, and how I played him. I was very distraught (as one can be over fantasy novel characters) with his “fall”, his sudden rejection of Lathander at the end of Shadowstorm. The character, I thought, was a “welcome change”, brining a metaphorical and literal light to the cast of protagonists in Forgotten Realms novels of late. While compelling and interesting protagonists are always good, it’s nice to see a “classic good guy” every once and a while, and this was a role that Abelar seemed to have, until he became an apostate. For much of Shadowrealm, I think this development hurt the character. Abelar seemed, to me, to be a fish out of water. I didn’t know where he was going. He, himself, didn’t know where he was going. As I was talking to my beautiful girlfriend about, an Abelar without Lathander, I personally feel, is akin to…a dog without a tail, a cat without whiskers. Abelar’s character was defined, I felt, by his connection and service to Lathander. Take that away from the character, and you’ve more or less taken away the character. By the way that Abelar seemed to be floundering around until the end, when he reaffirmed his faith, I believe that was confirmed. I think it’s a bit of a shame that he died, but at least he died “correctly”. That is, he died fighting the foes of his comrades-at-arms, wielding the holy power of Lathander. I, personally, liked better the concept that I had been developing in the interim between Shadowstorm and Shadowrealm- Abelar Corrinthal acts as the light that rises over Sembia to cast out the proverbial and literal darkness. But, we can’t always get what we want.

-Interestingly enough- and I don’t know if this was intentional on Paul Kemp’s part or anything- I felt just the opposite with Prince Brennus Tanthul. With Abelar, something was removed and I felt that detracted from the character. With Brennus, something was added, and I felt that it detracted from the character. When, at the end of “Continuum”, the short story in Realms of War, Brennus said, “Discovering things is my specialty”, I gained a great deal of respect for Prince Brennus. Beforehand, to me, he had just been one of the more or less nameless and detail less Princes of Shade. To have Brennus discover the fate of his mother, to have him discover that his father, and Hadrhune (another Shadovar who was seemingly killed and brought back) knew that Rivalen had killed her, and to have him act so “out of character” because of that knowledge detracted from the character, I thought. Though I certainly hopes that Brennus would divine what happened to her, the scenes dealing with this seemed very forced to me. And, not that I have too many problems with Paul Kemp’s novels- he is probably the best Forgotten Realms author who is around currently, including Ed Greenwood himself- the Shadovar binding Mephistopheles (How is that pronounced? :P) seemed a little “silly”. I mean, if Asmodeus, the Lord of the Ninth, is akin to a Greater Deity in terms of power, I’d expect the Lord of the Eighth to be not that much far behind- though, power is certainly relative. I have the same complaint when Riven “kicked his ass” after the death of Erevis Cale.

-One of the parts I liked best about this book was the “final battle” scene(s). Novel protagonists being “kick ass” characters is nothing new. I don’t have any problems with that. Novels are “their” stories, of course. I found it very refreshing that, in the “final battle” scene(s), ordinary Lathanderites had a decent role and accounting for. Take comic books, for instance. Spider-Man is always running around defeating super villains, saving innocents and so on and so on. Where is the NYPD? They don’t make a very good showing of themselves too often. “Regular Joes” are often forgotten in stories that “move and shake” things. To see- and have various paragraphs and subchapters dedicated to- “ordinary” Lathanderites standing up against the great evil and threat that Volumvox/Kesson Rel was, was very refreshing and another demonstration of Paul Kemp’s ability to “get things”. The various Lathanderites- Regg, Trewe, Jiriis, and others- standing up and fighting alongside the “superheroes” against the “supervillain” was very nice to see. As plenty of people have problems with balancing in their D&D games, or their view of the world, the “little guys” matter too.

-Hmm…A couple of other interesting points. Shar and Mask being multispheric deities, with Mask being Shar’s herald? Pretty cool. I was digging Shar (and Mask) being multispheric since the Erevis Cale trilogy. Mask’s real name being revealed as Lessinor? Doesn’t matter too much, but an interesting tidbit. I also found it interesting, in retrospect, to look back at how much Magadon changed, going from “normal guy” to “insane killer” and then back to being relatively normal again. Unfortunately, the ending of the novel taking place in 1,479 DR left a bad taste in my mouth.

-So, in the end, out of a possible Five Beholders, I give Shadowrealm Four Beholders.

#2

zanan

Jan 28, 2009 8:43:12
Why not mark a few things with the spoiler tags, hm? As of your header do a review, so no need to tell some on here too much ... without proper warning.
#3

lord_karsus

Jan 28, 2009 9:20:03
Why not mark a few things with the spoiler tags, hm? As of your header do a review, so no need to tell some on here too much ... without proper warning.

-There is no reason to. Anyone who is reading the book review should understand that I will be discussing the book and parts of the book that, unless they have finished it, they might not want to see. One would be unable to discuss the plot and such without doing so.
#4

rinonalyrna_fathomlin

Jan 28, 2009 10:35:20
-The first thing I’ll touch on will be Abelar Corrinthal. I think it’s safe to assume that this character has had a ‘profound’ influence on my on D&D playing. One of my favorite characters- perhaps my favorite character- Alton Honeywell was created after reading Shadowstorm. While Alton, a Morninglord of Lathander, isn’t a copy and paste job of Abelar, Abelar certainly inspired the character, and how I played him.

Wow, I never knew that. Maybe someday one of my characters will meet Honeywell--that'd be cool.;)

While compelling and interesting protagonists are always good...

You mean aren't always good, I'm sure.
#5

lord_karsus

Jan 28, 2009 10:45:27
You mean aren't always good, I'm sure.

-No. I meant what I said. Interesting and compelling protagonists are always needed. Good as in 'good to have', not good as in alignment.
#6

rinonalyrna_fathomlin

Jan 28, 2009 10:48:57
Ah, I thought you meant "good" as in morally good.
#7

lord_karsus

Jan 30, 2009 20:54:31
-No. But, I do like those, too. :embarrass
#8

wannabesuperman

Feb 01, 2009 2:05:02
Everyone should read this trilogy, IMHO. Whether a fan of D&D or not. Even if you don't like fantasy novels, please give these books a chance.

The first two books were more enjoyable, to me, but the last was a must read, because I needed to resolve these characters' stories. Cale, Riven and Mags were obviously central, but as LK mentioned, Abelar stole scene after scene. Brennus was such a moral disappointment. I was certain he'd stand up to the corruption his family had become.

Mr. Kemp obviously loves these characters, and he's one of the few writers I've ever read that made a "god" into an interesting character. Thank you for Mask.

And, can I get a show of hands from those that believe Mr. Cale's son is going to be Mask's fifth Chosen? I'm stoked.
#9

MattDroz

Feb 01, 2009 9:56:58
And, can I get a show of hands from those that believe Mr. Cale's son is going to be Mask's fifth Chosen? I'm stoked.

Not the fifth Chosen. The new Mask. :D

And does anyone else see a correlation between the Mask/Shar relationship to the Silver Surfer/Galactus relationship?:lightbulb
#10

lord_karsus

Feb 02, 2009 9:54:05
Brennus was such a moral disappointment. I was certain he'd stand up to the corruption his family had become.

-Yeah, like I said, I was disappointed with that part too.

And does anyone else see a correlation between the Mask/Shar relationship to the Silver Surfer/Galactus relationship?:lightbulb

-Well, it's kind of hard not to, with the use of the word 'Herald' and all. That was an interesting new dynamic to add to their relationship though. I like it, and don't like it at the same time. I think it places too much of an emphasis on Mask's "Darkness" aspect, and not enough on his "Thievery" aspect. I know I for one always saw Mask as a thief deity first and foremost.

-Oh, and Rin, concerning Hadrhune: I checked the dates, and he dies after this book, since this is at the beginning of the year, and the superadventures take place later on in the year.
#11

rinonalyrna_fathomlin

Feb 02, 2009 13:15:24
-No. But, I do like those, too. :embarrass

I generally am fond of morally good heroes as well.;)

I know I for one always saw Mask as a thief deity first and foremost.

So did I.

-Oh, and Rin, concerning Hadrhune: I checked the dates, and he dies after this book, since this is at the beginning of the year, and the superadventures take place later on.

Thanks for letting me know.
#12

Aegeri

Feb 02, 2009 18:32:00
As many of you know, I’m not particularly vocal in my dislike of where the authors and designers have taken the Forgotten Realms in the 4e era.

I totally hadn't figured that out before now.

Hmm…A couple of other interesting points. Shar and Mask being multispheric deities, with Mask being Shar’s herald? Pretty cool. I was digging Shar (and Mask) being multispheric since the Erevis Cale trilogy

This would be much better than what has apparently happened with Mask/Shar IMO
#13

MattDroz

Feb 03, 2009 12:28:23
I think I've found a Continuity error between Shadowrealm and Anauroch: Empire of Shade.

Shadowrealm, in fact Paul's short story in Realms of Shadow, show Rivalen going through the Book of the Black. However, the adventurers recover the book through the adventure in the Anauroch.

According to the timeline in TGHotR, the battle of Selgaunt and return of Sakkors takes place in Uktar 1374, while the culmination of the Shadowdale adventure (which leads to the Anauroch adventure) is mid-Hammer, 1375.

Taking into account some travel and adventure time, I'd put the Adventurer's finding of the The Book of Black around Ches or Tarsakh in 1375, six months after the Princes were able to research it. Granted, soon after finding the book, the Adventurers travel to Candlekeep and are 'suggested' to use it to gain entrance to the vaults, but that still places it around six months after the Shades have it.
#14

The_Simbul_of_Aglarond

Feb 05, 2009 21:46:24
I think I've found a Continuity error between Shadowrealm and Anauroch: Empire of Shade.

Shadowrealm, in fact Paul's short story in Realms of Shadow, show Rivalen going through the Book of the Black. However, the adventurers recover the book through the adventure in the Anauroch.

According to the timeline in TGHotR, the battle of Selgaunt and return of Sakkors takes place in Uktar 1374, while the culmination of the Shadowdale adventure (which leads to the Anauroch adventure) is mid-Hammer, 1375.

Taking into account some travel and adventure time, I'd put the Adventurer's finding of the The Book of Black around Ches or Tarsakh in 1375, six months after the Princes were able to research it. Granted, soon after finding the book, the Adventurers travel to Candlekeep and are 'suggested' to use it to gain entrance to the vaults, but that still places it around six months after the Shades have it.

You have confused the Book of the Black with the Leaves of One Night. They are related, but entirely different tomes.

The Book of the Black was penned by Augratha the Mad, and contained Shar's Black Chronology, and other secrets of the Dark Goddess.

The Leaves of One Night was written by the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower, and was based on what they discovered from their translations of the Book of the Black. The tome revealed secrets about Shar, and lore regarding a moment of weakness for the Goddess. It also included the means to summon the shadowstorm.

Rivalen possessed the Leaves of One Night, which was retrieved by his agents in 1373 DR (see The Priests: Mistress of the Night), and was later used to summon the shadowstorm.

The Book of the Black remained hidden in Augratha's Crypt (the Ruins of Synod) in the Stonelands until adventurers recovered it and (presumably) surrendered it to the sages of Candlekeep.
#15

MattDroz

Feb 05, 2009 22:53:09
You have confused the Book of the Black with the Leaves of One Night. They are related, but entirely different tomes.

The Book of the Black was penned by Augratha the Mad, and contained Shar's Black Chronology, and other secrets of the Dark Goddess.

The Leaves of One Night was written by the Dark Diviners of Windsong Tower, and was based on what they discovered from their translations of the Book of the Black. The tome revealed secrets about Shar, and lore regarding a moment of weakness for the Goddess. It also included the means to summon the shadowstorm.

Rivalen possessed the Leaves of One Night, which was retrieved by his agents in 1373 DR (see The Priests: Mistress of the Night), and was later used to summon the shadowstorm.

The Book of the Black remained hidden in Augratha's Crypt (the Ruins of Synod) in the Stonelands until adventurers recovered it and (presumably) surrendered it to the sages of Candlekeep.

Ah, thank you lovely lady!

As I was looking over GHotR today, I realized that the two were connected, but I had forgot that the adventurers in Cormyr only brought back a page of the Leaves of One Night. Now it becomes clearer!
#16

rauric

Feb 05, 2009 22:56:02
Perhaps Mask may somehow subsume Shar and take over the places on Toril that her worshippers live, like Netheril and Sembia? Just a thought I had.
#17

msatran

Feb 06, 2009 5:05:20
The problem is that the killing of Hadrhune means too much. At this precise moment, once he dies, (And it really shouldn't take that long, 77 HP for a guy his level? I give him ONE ROUND) the Kingdom of Shade is thrown into chaos. At this moment, smart groups of characters would strike. Brennus may be the master of divinations, but he can't divine ANYTHING on people who cast Mind Blank on themselves every day. Even if he knows that people are after him, he's going to have to resort to protection methods that are more mundane.

Quite frankly, I'm amazed that these guys lived a hundred years after that incident. Because you know what...they shouldn't. Telamont would be down half his kids, Sembia, and there would be blood in the streets of Shade.

By the time the dust cleared, most of these princes would be spitting up blood and dying.
#18

rinonalyrna_fathomlin

Feb 06, 2009 11:15:38
By the time the dust cleared, most of these princes would be spitting up blood and dying.

I like that image, thanks for sharing it. :D
#19

lord_karsus

Feb 06, 2009 12:50:01
-I don't believe they bleed.
#20

msatran

Feb 06, 2009 16:29:13
No, they do. Kemp says they bleed shadows and their flesh knits together.

See the fight between Cale and one of the Princes in the first book, containing the single two worst lines of dialogue ever.

"You are a priest!"

Really, I never would have guessed that you were a priest after you cast FLAME STRIKE ON ME!
#21

rauric

Feb 06, 2009 18:19:40
The problem is that the killing of Hadrhune means too much. At this precise moment, once he dies, (And it really shouldn't take that long, 77 HP for a guy his level? I give him ONE ROUND) the Kingdom of Shade is thrown into chaos. At this moment, smart groups of characters would strike. Brennus may be the master of divinations, but he can't divine ANYTHING on people who cast Mind Blank on themselves every day. Even if he knows that people are after him, he's going to have to resort to protection methods that are more mundane.

Quite frankly, I'm amazed that these guys lived a hundred years after that incident. Because you know what...they shouldn't. Telamont would be down half his kids, Sembia, and there would be blood in the streets of Shade.

By the time the dust cleared, most of these princes would be spitting up blood and dying.

When you talk about the rules the way you do, well they just don't work 100% like that when it comes to novels. Novel characters do not act or react like they are playing in a D&D game. They act like a character in a novel acts, and this means they are at the mercy of the writer. They do not think like Knights of the Dinner Table when it comes to situations. They act in a way that makes the novel appealing to the majority of readers or in a way that works for the character or story.

If a random piece of a building falls and hits and kills a character in a novel a writer does not calculate HPs (which are an abstact thing btw). He/she figures out if a character dying by a random piece of rubble would make for a good story. He the answer is yes then death happen, if not then the character is maimed, hurt or knocked out.

Novels and RPGs games work differently. In novels there are not tons of adventuring groups at high level running around, or if there are they are no where near the event or region that the story takes place in. The novel is about the protagonist and antagonist. Novels are not filled with a bunch of gaming goobs like the cast of KODT(thank god). Sometimes spells are ignored, hps are an afterthought and a 10+ level dark elf ranger can possibly kill a Balor all by himself if he plans enough. ;)

All that matters **IN A NOVEL** is the story and how the majority of readers view and feel about that story. At least IMO.


**this was the edited part**
#22

msatran

Feb 06, 2009 19:15:23
I would totally hate to play in your D+D game, because if that's the case, no matter how good a plan I come up with, if it meets the needs of your story, I'm still dead.

Glad to see I finally know where I stand with you.
#23

rauric

Feb 06, 2009 20:38:45
I was talking about D&D Novels and D&D RPG games and the differences between the two. In the novels the rules do not matter as much as they do in the RPG game. That is how many authors seem to handle things.They don't worry about every game rule or spells, they (the author just so we are clear ;) ) just worry about their story and how they can use some spells and rules to make their story interesting and appealing to a majority of readers and not a minority of readers.

My games are mostly free-form with a minor choo-choo along the way once in a blue moon. Most of the time they never realize they were on the rails to begin with so it is cool. I try not to do that too often. In 3E the PCs deafeated things that they should not have just by using their brains and a folding trap I gave them. I never planned for the encounter to end that way but it sure was fun. Plus I find that in 3.5 I used to fudge the dice every now and then in the pcs favor but I have never done that yet in 4E which I am pretty happy about. The players seem to be playing smarter now that they have to rely on each other more. Good times :D.
#24

msatran

Feb 07, 2009 5:58:39
See, there are two major problems with that philosophy, and they're the same problems I always have.

4E, everything is story driven. The characters may have to rely on each other more, but when my PC's don't rely on each other in 3.5, they step into meatgrinders and die.

My point here was actually that if Hadrhune dies, that the Shade Civil War starts, because that's what canon lore implies. Killing Hadrhune because he has 77 HP just makes it easy as opposed to hard.

The idea that all the Shade Princes are united is totally unsupported. There's the evil empire faction, and the Shar Church faction, and they're opposed. With the death of Hadrhune, the balance of power begins to shift.
#25

Aegeri

Feb 07, 2009 6:06:44
4E, everything is story driven. The characters may have to rely on each other more, but when my PC's don't rely on each other in 3.5, they step into meatgrinders and die.

I can't quite figure out what on earth you're trying to say or imply here. Are you trying to say that PCs in 4E don't die horribly when they fail to work together? Because I have a few TPK stories already that can easily disprove that.

My point here was actually that if Hadrhune dies, that the Shade Civil War starts, because that's what canon lore implies. Killing Hadrhune because he has 77 HP just makes it easy as opposed to hard.

You prove, without a shadow of a doubt, why these characters should never. Ever. Ever. Ever. Be statted.

Ever.
#26

rauric

Feb 07, 2009 7:53:18
Any time my players split up when they know they should not bad things happen. During combat when they don't "focus fire" or act smart, they usually start to die. After they realize their problem they play smarter and beat the enemy. In my 3.5 games the pcs could handle stuff almost with half the party at times.

MS might be right about Hadrhune dying. To me the only thing keeping the Princes from War is their father.

If I ran a FR campaign again I would have the Civil War happen. It would not be too much of a war though. The Princes would feud after big Ts death then reach an agreement. They create more floating cities and continue the Netheril Empire but discontinue the whole Shar thing. Shade still worhips her though, the other Enclaves do not. More people flock to the Empire over time because of it's "kinder" image. Now the Empire is filled with more plotting and intrigue which slows its expansion and it is not so ALL-POWERFUL as it is now.
The above may change alot in my mind over the next few months
#27

msatran

Feb 07, 2009 13:59:27
Flaw: Player characters have the power to tilt that balance. Strike the shades while they're off balance and hit them in their power base, their highest level clerics. Remove their ability to resurrect people and escape into the night. Blame it on whichever side you think is weaker. The stronger will attack them. A well coordinated assault using Veil and other careful illusion spells will succeed if handled correctly.

If they aren't statted, or the DM changes their stats, that's fine too, but that doesn't mean PC's won't find a way to kill them. Shades are also technically vulnerable to light, which means that if you cast Sunburst enough times, eventually, they'll die. Heck, I think if they fail a reflex save vs. Sunburst they just kick the bucket. So where would they be in 4th edition? Pushing up the posies, that's where.

That's why they just blanket advanced time and didn't go too deeply into it, because PC's are smart. And god forbid that intelligence should ever be rewarded in a published product.
#28

rauric

Feb 07, 2009 21:00:14
It goes both ways. Since you are only using 3E rules the Shades can use all the same spells for a defense against those same PCs. The Princes are not the only Shades around even. There are lots of baddies in that floating Enclave. Plus a DM will most likely make sure the gear is a bit more powerful and that the Shades bodyguards are a bit above the party's level. A DM could have the local tavern keeper that the PCs hang at keep tabs on the PCs. The Shades could go after the PCs families or loved ones (if the players are KODT clones then the players have most likely killed these people so that plan would not work ;)). Of course this is all about the RPG game and not the novel series.

In a novel world the Shades did not fall into Civil War because...
In a novel world the Shades did not die to adventurers because...
There is no reasons given because it just never happened until the authors wish it to happen. The Shades of 4E may never have existed due to events in a DMs campaign that happened around 3e but the novel stuff is totally different than the gaming stuff.
#29

msatran

Feb 08, 2009 4:50:19
My argument is that it doesn't matter. There's NO such thing as an NPC, Rauric. Not one. There was no LOGICAL reason why the Shade's division would suddenly heal, and there was no real explanation given for it. Technically, every character should react the way a PC would. The fact that no one said "Ahhh! They're weak! Now is the time to strike..." makes me question, once again, the intelligence of the game designers.

My least favorite thing about the book is "Now, all across Sembia, all religions except Shar will be outlawed." So...how are you going to actually achieve this without a second massive civil war, internal strife, and killing three quarters of the population?

The answer is, you can't. Take away people's religion by force, and you'll have a revolt. It's built into the psyche of humanity. And the revolt will be long, bloody, and ridiculous.
#30

rauric

Feb 08, 2009 7:09:33
I was going to offer a few more points about religion and the differences between Toril's and Earth's view of it but that would further derail this thread.

I believe novels should (and do) ignore some gaming rules to tell a story and you do not. Pretty much that is how we should leave it, with two different opinions.
#31

Therise

Feb 08, 2009 12:14:41
-The first thing I’ll touch on will be Abelar Corrinthal. (...) I was very distraught (as one can be over fantasy novel characters) with his “fall”, his sudden rejection of Lathander at the end of Shadowstorm. The character, I thought, was a “welcome change”, brining a metaphorical and literal light to the cast of protagonists in Forgotten Realms novels of late.

I really liked this character also, and I appreciated that Kemp didn't take the "easy" routes of either pulling him back into Lathander's fold with a relevation and a thank-you -or- turn him into a faithless, dark and fallen paladin. Here we had an examination of Abelar's humanity and his development of a more complex personal philosophy about good, light, and personal relationship with deity. I loved it.

-One of the parts I liked best about this book was the “final battle” scene(s). Novel protagonists being “kick ass” characters is nothing new. I don’t have any problems with that. Novels are “their” stories, of course. I found it very refreshing that, in the “final battle” scene(s), ordinary Lathanderites had a decent role and accounting for.

Completely agree, it was refreshing to see regular NPCs having some limelight. One of the best parts of the book.

-Hmm…A couple of other interesting points. Shar and Mask being multispheric deities, with Mask being Shar’s herald?

I'll disagree here, but only for the specific reason that I don't like the way that everything has rotated around and centered on Shar. This, to me, just seemed like another Shar-filled commandment from the Editors. Mask could've been revealed as a herald of another fallen deity, perhaps Myrkul or even Jergal in some intriguing way. A tomb-robber deity of old Netheril, for instance, that had worked against (or sometimes with) Shar for millenia, and had changed across the eons to fit thieves more generally. Anything other than Shar would've been preferable IMO.

I did, however, like the nod to multispheric deities, as this was very nicely done.

I'd have given this book 4 beholders and a chicken, myself. ;)
#32

lord_karsus

Feb 08, 2009 21:37:06
No, they do. Kemp says they bleed shadows and their flesh knits together.

-Bleeding shadows, I don't consider bleeding. More like...deflating, maybe?
#33

lord_karsus

Feb 08, 2009 21:41:50
I really liked this character also, and I appreciated that Kemp didn't take the "easy" routes of either pulling him back into Lathander's fold with a relevation and a thank-you -or- turn him into a faithless, dark and fallen paladin. Here we had an examination of Abelar's humanity and his development of a more complex personal philosophy about good, light, and personal relationship with deity. I loved it.

-I won't say that I wouldn't have liked to have seen a "a revelation and a thank-you", but...;)

I'll disagree here, but only for the specific reason that I don't like the way that everything has rotated around and centered on Shar. This, to me, just seemed like another Shar-filled commandment from the Editors. Mask could've been revealed as a herald of another fallen deity, perhaps Myrkul or even Jergal in some intriguing way. A tomb-robber deity of old Netheril, for instance, that had worked against (or sometimes with) Shar for millenia, and had changed across the eons to fit thieves more generally. Anything other than Shar would've been preferable IMO.

-Very true. But, also, keep in mind, Shar is also the only Faerûnian deity that is about nihilism and such. Personally speaking, I found it more of a nod towards that aspect of Shar- the everything is for naught, for eventually, even nothingness will cease to exist- than the "Yeahz! Shar iz teh awesomesauce!!!11!" aspect of Shar.

-As for Mask originally being a herald of someone else...Yeah, that works. But, again, I saw more of the nihilistic Shar in all of that. Ultimatley, with Mask being her herald, he is stealing something grand and extremely precious: existence itself. The ultimate heist.
#34

msatran

Feb 09, 2009 5:39:05
The problem is that the ultimate result of that is that Shar will cease to exist.
#35

rauric

Feb 09, 2009 7:24:19
I think that nihilistic attitude fits some type of Primorodial being, a demonlord or a being from the Far Realm. I never cared for it on a god of Faerun's Pantheon.
#36

lord_karsus

Feb 09, 2009 9:23:16
The problem is that the ultimate result of that is that Shar will cease to exist.

-Shar knows and understands that.

I think that nihilistic attitude fits some type of Primorodial being, a denomlord or a being from the Far Realm. I never cared for it on a god of Faerun's Pantheon.

-It's all the same.
#37

msatran

Feb 09, 2009 10:35:51
The thing is, knowing that, WHY do people worship this god? It really is the most counterintuitive thing I've ever seen. On the bright side, this god will never return anyone to life, so it doesn't matter in that aspect.
#38

lord_karsus

Feb 09, 2009 10:55:49
The thing is, knowing that, WHY do people worship this god? It really is the most counterintuitive thing I've ever seen.

-The same reason people actively attempt to kill themselves.
#39

rauric

Feb 09, 2009 16:46:15
I agree with MS. To me only the insane would worship Shar now. She has no real hold over "shadowmagic" so nobody has to worship her to gain access to it. If people wish to worship a being that offers them power for loyalty they are better off with Bane, Asmodeus (any devil or demon lord really) and even Cyric for that matter. Mask was a good deity to worship for the power hungry IMO. Even Talos (now Grummsh) makes more sense to me than Shar. If she drops the crazy end of the universe angle more people will flock to her.

Perhaps reabsorbing Mask (or whatever happened) will change her demeanor in the next few years and her portfolio will make a bit more sense. The should play of the goddess of Secrets and Darkness deal and less on the nihilistic garbage. Leave that for Ghanadaur (sp?).
#40

msatran

Feb 09, 2009 17:02:01
The thing is, only the insane would worship Shar in 1374. The philosophy doesn't change just because of the year, Rauric.

By that time, the Waterdeep Temple in Undermountain should have been sacked, and the Temple of Old Night should be in a great deal of trouble.

This should be a religion losing ground, not a religion gaining it. But the novels aren't written by people who understand geopolitics, and the right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing.
#41

rauric

Feb 09, 2009 18:54:06
Oh I know, I agree with that. To me only the insane would worship Shar, except the ones who wanted access to the Shadow Weave and not have to suffer its "ill effects" (I am talking about the 3E wis dmg). I can understand someone worshipping her because they wanted easy access to the S Weave at the time. Now only really crazy people make sense. She better change her ways or people are going to change deities real quick. Even Lloth makes more sense than Shar ;) .
#42

Therise

Feb 09, 2009 19:39:59
The thing is, only the insane would worship Shar in 1374. The philosophy doesn't change just because of the year, Rauric.

By that time, the Waterdeep Temple in Undermountain should have been sacked, and the Temple of Old Night should be in a great deal of trouble.

This should be a religion losing ground, not a religion gaining it. But the novels aren't written by people who understand geopolitics, and the right hand often doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

Shar has been problematic ever since the Time of Troubles, IMO.

With Ao's stricture after ToT that deity power relates directly to number of worshippers, and that all gods can die out if their worshippers all die out, reject, or forget them, Shar changed dramatically.

From that point on, she needed large numbers of worshippers to maintain her power. Yet in many significant ways, this is directly contrary to her portfolios of loss and nihilism. It forces, essentially, a deeper relationship with the god of lies (Cyric), as it means that if she ever wants to build up an apocalypse she needs to promise power and influence and gain numbers for her "flock"; and yet, this is ultimately a lie to her followers and worshippers: in the end, they'll lose everything. It means that she must keep all of her deeper plans secret from even her high priests, often pitting them at odds as she grants them power and influence and withholds support as this one or that one needs to die in service of her greater plan.

It is, now, a religion that depends upon weak-minded followers, or those that are willing to believe her lies despite the clear fact that they're there. It requires only fear from those who pay her indirect lip service. It also requires, from her most powerful clergy, that they are either insane, stupid, or are in so much emotional pain that nothing else matters. Or, as with her favored prince of Netheril, it requires his total dedication to her beyond responsibilities to his people or to his family.
#43

lord_karsus

Feb 09, 2009 20:29:51
With Ao's stricture after ToT that deity power relates directly to number of worshippers, and that all gods can die out if their worshippers all die out, reject, or forget them, Shar changed dramatically.

From that point on, she needed large numbers of worshippers to maintain her power. Yet in many significant ways, this is directly contrary to her portfolios of loss and nihilism. It forces, essentially, a deeper relationship with the god of lies (Cyric), as it means that if she ever wants to build up an apocalypse she needs to promise power and influence and gain numbers for her "flock"; and yet, this is ultimately a lie to her followers and worshippers: in the end, they'll lose everything. It means that she must keep all of her deeper plans secret from even her high priests, often pitting them at odds as she grants them power and influence and withholds support as this one or that one needs to die in service of her greater plan.

It is, now, a religion that depends upon weak-minded followers, or those that are willing to believe her lies despite the clear fact that they're there. It requires only fear from those who pay her indirect lip service. It also requires, from her most powerful clergy, that they are either insane, stupid, or are in so much emotional pain that nothing else matters. Or, as with her favored prince of Netheril, it requires his total dedication to her beyond responsibilities to his people or to his family.[/QUOTE

-The formula for the power of a deity is roughly:

Po = (Wf x Wb) + P1 + P2...

where

Po = Power
Wf = Worshiper Faith
Wb = Worship Base
P1 = Portfolio 1
P2 = Portfolio 2
and so on...

-Shar has a small amount of actual worshipers, due to the actual dogma of her faith, and the fact that it is commonly ascribed a cult status, and persecuted. Her followers are (normally) very zealous, however. Shar also has many portfolios, and many of those that she has are of a great deal of importance. This is how Shar can have few followers, but be a Greater Deity.
#44

JudgeDookie

Feb 09, 2009 21:55:58
-The formula for the power of a deity is roughly:

Po = (Wf x Wb) + P1 + P2...

where

Po = Power
Wf = Worshiper Faith
Wb = Worship Base
P1 = Portfolio 1
P2 = Portfolio 2
and so on...

Was. :whatsthis

I don't see such an equation working, nor making sense anymore.
#45

lord_karsus

Feb 09, 2009 22:09:59
-I started a thread to discuss that HERE, to not get this in a tangent too much.
#46

Therise

Feb 10, 2009 1:28:53
-The formula for the power of a deity is roughly:
(...)
-Shar has a small amount of actual worshipers, due to the actual dogma of her faith, and the fact that it is commonly ascribed a cult status, and persecuted. Her followers are (normally) very zealous, however. Shar also has many portfolios, and many of those that she has are of a great deal of importance. This is how Shar can have few followers, but be a Greater Deity.

I'd say that was certainly true in 3E (small number of fervent worshippers), but my impression is that she now has not only Netheril but also large numbers of Sembian worshippers in 4E. Not to mention those in other regions, with her faith post-Spellplague certainly having increased.

Just my impression, though. *shrug*
#47

lord_karsus

Feb 10, 2009 9:41:25
-In that case, then it should be clear how Shar remains powerful- even if the concept is opposition of her portfolio (which I, personally, don't necessarily see).