Bruce Cordell
Book III, The Citadels
-I liked Stardeep. Being a Faerûnian Elven scholar, I picked the book up immediately, thinking there’d be plenty of new lore about Star Elves, the Sildëyuir, and the Yuirwood. Well, there was some new lore on those places, but not as much as I expected. Not as much as would have liked. That said, the saving grace of the book were the characters.
-I’ll just get this part out of the way now: the whole Aberration angle. Yeah, with the FRCG out already, and the ‘full story’ having been told now, I still don’t appreciate and/or like the entire ‘Abeir’ and ‘Toril’ are two different places schpiel that this book alluded at. That said, I like how the knowledge of these ancient events tie to the Star Elves, which in turn can tie to the lost Yuir deities, a hypothesis that I am fond of. I also like how the Order of the Cerulean Sign was tied into the Forgotten Realms. There’s some seeming continuity problems there (How could have Stardeep existed before the Sildëyuir?), but it is what it is.
-Anyway, the only character I disliked was Cynosure. That entity really seemed completely out-of-place for the Forgotten Realms. This is the second time that I can recall Bruce Cordell introducing something really foreign to the Forgotten Realms in a novel of his- in Darkvision, it was the entire “alternate future” thing going on, with Usuai at the end. Anyway, Cynosure was akin to a…sentient supercomputer robot, and as such, I didn’t like the character at all.
-All of the other characters, though, were excellent. I didn’t like Kiril Duskmourn much, in Darkvision, but this novel added to my like of her. Gage, the thief, very interesting fellow, especially with his gloves. Raidon, I have a weak spot for Kara-Tur, and the Yuirwood, so his presence was like putting vanilla and chocolate together into one flavor. Delphe, I could sympathize with her confusion, her duties, and betrayal. Telerian was an excellent antagonist, in that at different points in the book, I was thinking that he was being controlled by the Traitor, was actually evil, was actually doing things on his own volition, sure that his actions were for the greater good, and whatever other views he had at the time. Even the Traitor, who we know nil about, seems very interesting. Kill him, and he summons the seat of the Abolethic (Such a silly word, that) Soverignty, in Xxiphu. Let him free, and he summons the seat of the Abolethic Soverignty, in Xxiphu. The only way to stay safe is to keep him in an eternal stasis. Edgewarden, a character mentioned only on a few pages, seems especially interesting, though I doubt we will ever see more information on him again.
-The overall plot, I enjoyed. A few of the details, I didn’t like. Like, for example, ‘Nis’. As an evil sentient sword, made of all of the evil in an Elven spirit, I like. As ‘sin’ written backwards, and as the remaining letters in ‘Nangulis’, I don’t. That’s kind of hokey, in my opinion. But, it is what it is.
-Overall, out of a possible Five Beholders, I’d give this novel Three Beholders, and a Chicken.
And, yes. Cynosure tossed it all off for me. As its a novel named Stardeep, I immediately took his AI presence as something futuristic. The Battlestart Galactica vibe didn't leave me the entire novel.
Overall, the concept of the novel was fine, but I thought it lacked complete realism with the characters. Not their background, but the way they related to things.
Overall, I would give it one beholder on a stick, topped with a chewed on cherry.
I thought it was a bore myself.
-Really? How come?
'Cause it was a bore?
-Based on my rating of it, I obviously didn't think so, which is why I was asking why! :P
Bore.
You--yourself--didn't care for this book originally. I think you are simply getting sentimental for 3e and checking back to see how 3e and 4e can connect and looking through the old prerelease stuff and are possibly finding things a bit different the second time around.
Or, maybe, you and B.R.C. have had a chit-chat.
Anyway it goes, as I said, I thought there was a good concept behind the story. Just didn't think it was delivered well.
Dude. Based on the rating of this thread and the unique replies its getting...?
Bore.
-Again, the question as to why has yet to be answered by Merrik.
Stardeep
...
-I’ll just get this part out of the way now: the whole Aberration angle. Yeah, with the FRCG out already, and the ‘full story’ having been told now, I still don’t appreciate and/or like the entire ‘Abeir’ and ‘Toril’ are two different places schpiel that this book alluded at.
What does this supposed to mean? Or is it just a spelling mistake? (Rest assured, just professional interest!)
Zanan, that's an anglo-saxon adaption of "spiel", probably by a detour through yiddish territory. It essentially means "theme", I believe.
-Right.
-Again, the question as to why has yet to be answered by Merrik.
I'd give this book one half of a chicken. Two nuggets, maybe, with a nasty sauce like McD's BBQ.
I can live with this. Then I'll go eat The Orc King for dinner.
Yum! :D
-Really? How come?
I don't find him to be a very good author really.
I did not like the main character nor was the threat overly entertaining
I am not a big lovecraftian/abberation kind of guy
I don't find him to be a very good author really.
I did not like the main character nor was the threat overly entertaining
I am not a big lovecraftian/abberation kind of guy
So then it wasn't your "cup of tea". Doesn't mean it is a bad book,....it just isn't your thing.
I love Lovecraft so am I enjoying it so far. I only read 2 chapters so far. I also like Cordell's work.
I didn't care for "Swordmage" at all.....despite the fact I like the class.....the book just didn't "click" for me. Some people loved it. Just wasn't my "cup of tea." :P
So then it wasn't your "cup of tea". Doesn't mean it is a bad book,....it just isn't your thing.
Yes. Which is why I had previously said "I thought it was a bore myself" and then some peeps asked me why
I will say that it was better than Darkvision which I had trouble getting through
I did not like the main character nor was the threat overly entertaining
-Hmm...I found the characters the part that kept me with the book, that made me like it.
-Hmm...I found the characters the part that kept me with the book, that made me like it.
This is probably the only point where I have truly questioned your intelligence. No offense.
Dude--the characters sucked. While the background was there, they weren't. The whole book was about the story--not the characters involved in it.
This is probably the only point where I have truly questioned your intelligence. No offense.
Dude--the characters sucked. While the background was there, they weren't. The whole book was about the story--not the characters involved in it.
I hate to admits this but I agree with, um, Dookie
Dude--the characters sucked. While the background was there, they weren't. The whole book was about the story--not the characters involved in it.
-Like I said, of the main characters, I found only Delphe and Kiril a bore. The others- especially Raidon Kane (who is getting his own book, which is cool), Telerion and Gage- I liked.
I only just starting reading this book and I don't know if I'll be able to finish it. The character Cynosure is, like others have said, a Realmsian version of A.I. Seriously, WTF? Well, I'll give it another go, but I don't have high hopes.
-Yeah, the sentient robot was certainly very much out of place, and a downer. But, I've come to expect at least one moment in a Bruce Cordell novel that makes me wonder, "What the hell is that/going on, and why is it in the Forgotten Realms?"
I hate to admits this but I agree with, um, Dookie
You've always been a closet agreer. Quiet now.
-Like I said, of the main characters, I found only Delphe and Kiril a bore. The others- especially Raidon Kane (who is getting his own book, which is cool), Telerion and Gage- I liked.
I'll give you Raidon--but only in concept. Again, there was no development. He was simply along for the story, despite intentions.
You've always been a closet agreer. Quiet now.
-That's what happens when you get married.
I'll give you Raidon--but only in concept. Again, there was no development. He was simply along for the story, despite intentions.
-Agreed. It's hard to delve deeply into character development in a stand-alone novel, with multiple protagonists. Like I said, though, he is going to be the protagonist of Plague of Spells, which I'll be picking up (It "only" takes place in 1390 DR), and that series is going to be a trilogy, so presumably (hopefully), we'll learn more about him. He's a mix of Kara-Tur and Elves, two of my favorite Forgotten Realms things. Now, if only we could get Calimshan in there somehow...
-I didn't like Kiril in Darkvision, being as that she's really the antithesis of what an Elf is supposed to be, but I did like Angul.
See, I liked Kiril partly because I thought it was rather brave, on the author's part, to create a elfmaiden who happened to be a down-and-out alcoholic. It's just not something one usually sees in fantasy novels.
-If that made sense.
-That's what happens when you get married.
Well, in that case, congrats MK. Hope she isn’t a judge you met through work.
-Agreed. It's hard to delve deeply into character development in a stand-alone novel, with multiple protagonists. Like I said, though, he is going to be the protagonist of Plague of Spells, which I'll be picking up (It "only" takes place in 1390 DR), and that series is going to be a trilogy, so presumably (hopefully), we'll learn more about him. He's a mix of Kara-Tur and Elves, two of my favorite Forgotten Realms things. Now, if only we could get Calimshan in there somehow...
I think this is optimistic. It is not the condensed novel “character development” that’s the problem—Bruce simply hits things shallow and without depth. Its much like I had with Lisa Smeldman—CD is convenient and quick. You end up more annoyed by the character then feeling anything for them.
In disagreement with you, I was more attracted to Delphe than others, simply because she wasn’t destroyed by the attempt to make her a depth character.
See, I liked Kiril partly because I thought it was rather brave, on the author's part, to create a elfmaiden who happened to be a down-and-out alcoholic. It's just not something one usually sees in fantasy novels.
And this would be another thing, I guess. I wasn’t aware that any of these characters weren’t new. That may be a big issue I have with their depth, but I don’t see it….
I think this is optimistic.
-Might be. After I read Plague of Spells, I'll let you know.
It is not the condensed novel “character development” that’s the problem—Bruce simply hits things shallow and without depth. Its much like I had with Lisa Smeldman—CD is convenient and quick. You end up more annoyed by the character then feeling anything for them.
-Those two aren't the only authors that do that, but when it does happen, it certainly detracts from the novel. That's what happened to me with Crypt of the Moaning Diamond. I didn't really care about the characters, and the book dragged to begin with.
In disagreement with you, I was more attracted to Delphe than others, simply because she wasn’t destroyed by the attempt to make her a depth character.
-Delphe, of...Telarion, Gage, Raidon Kane and Kiril, had the least personality, which is what made me dislike the character. Not much history or anything there, and not much personality, either. The others, they either had one, the other, or both.
-Might be. After I read Plague of Spells, I'll let you know.
Hopefully, I’ll be able to grab it as well. I do have some hope for that, if you are correct—simply because of the flavor.
-Delphe, of...Telarion, Gage, Raidon Kane and Kiril, had the least personality, which is what made me dislike the character. Not much history or anything there, and not much personality, either. The others, they either had one, the other, or both.
Then, I guess this is where you and I will stand at odds. You like substance, no matter how thin it is; and I only want substance if it has depth.
Otherwise, keep
simple unless you can do it right.I would rather have a very thin Delphe than an in-depth Kiril. She sucked. And the character smacked in the face of any other elf I would have picked up and read about—without reason or detail.
Then, I guess this is where you and I will stand at odds. You like substance, no matter how thin it is; and I only want substance if it has depth.
-Well, wait a second. The...integral parts of the character (I think) are personality and history. Characters with little-to-no personality can be good characters, if they have a good history (I'd put Khelben in this category. He's a hardass, but his history makes him a great character). Characters with personality, but little-to-no history can be good characters (I'll put Vhoori Durothil in this category. We know very little about him, but his personality makes him a good character, to me.). If a character has both personality and history, that's awesome (I guess Elminster would be a good example of this. I, personally, don't like him too much, but the character has both personality and history). When a character doesn't have either, then it's a very poor character.
-Right, that's why I didn't like her. As I said, I buy all Forgotten Realms novels for the lore, and Star Elves have little lore written on them. A "normal" Star Elf could create a lot of lore. Kiril, being what she was, didn't write a lot of lore. In Darkvision, anyway.
-If that made sense.
It did.
-Delphe, of...Telarion, Gage, Raidon Kane and Kiril, had the least personality, which is what made me dislike the character. Not much history or anything there, and not much personality, either. The others, they either had one, the other, or both.
I agree, more could have been done with Delphe.
liked the monk.
liked kiril
liked angul
the rouge dude was not bad
the others ... meh
cynosure, FR's super computer, well
thts one way to put it, never gave it much thought.
my rating:
-Well, wait a second. The...integral parts of the character (I think) are personality and history. Characters with little-to-no personality can be good characters, if they have a good history (I'd put Khelben in this category. He's a hardass, but his history makes him a great character). Characters with personality, but little-to-no history can be good characters (I'll put Vhoori Durothil in this category. We know very little about him, but his personality makes him a good character, to me.). If a character has both personality and history, that's awesome (I guess Elminster would be a good example of this. I, personally, don't like him too much, but the character has both personality and history). When a character doesn't have either, then it's a very poor character.
No, I agree with a great deal of this. On the other hand, when you do have a character that is supposed to have personality and history, you have to do it right. I just think you and I have different standards on what "right" is.
You bring up both Khelben and Eliminster. I’ve read several authors try to portray them both. Few did I like in execution. It’s almost doubly disappointing when you already have an established history and an author destroys the stylized image that has been created.
Again, I state that I wasn’t aware that there were previous incarnations of some of these characters. So, perhaps, that’s a bit of my problem. But, overall, I simply see it as a shallow delivery all around.
Again, I state that I wasn’t aware that there were previous incarnations of some of these characters. So, perhaps, that’s a bit of my problem. But, overall, I simply see it as a shallow delivery all around.
-Only one (Kiril).
Out of all of them that I liked, I agree. I preferred her to the characters I didn't like, though. Obviously.
I was speaking of Kiril.I didn't like her.
Interestingly enough, I though Ususi of Darkvision had much more spark as a side character (in Lady of Poison) than as a protagonist.
I liked Kiril, but for some reason liked her better as a "side character".
I liked Kiril, but for some reason liked her better as a "side character".
-Agreed. But, even when a side character, I didn't like her too much. That's a personal prejudice, though. My feeling on her, in her first appearance, is that, with such little lore on Star Elves out there, to begin with, we should have had a relatively normal Star Elf character to drop bits of lore here and there.
Interestingly enough, I though Ususi of Darkvision had much more spark as a side character (in Lady of Poison) than as a protagonist.
-Agreed, again.
-Agreed. But, even when a side character, I didn't like her too much. That's a personal prejudice, though. My feeling on her, in her first appearance, is that, with such little lore on Star Elves out there, to begin with, we should have had a relatively normal Star Elf character to drop bits of lore here and there.
Yes, you mentioned that.
-And now I'm repeating myself, apparently. Well, at least that shows that I mean what I say, and not making it up on the spot, if I am unknowingly repeating what I'm saying. I guess that's good?
Well, you clarified what you said--you said you liked Kiril better as a side character, relatively speaking.;)