By Jason Carl and Sean K. Reynolds
-Lords of Darkness was one of the last 3e era Forgotten Realms books I got, actually. I got it and Champions of Ruin around the same time, and since the latter book had a lot of updates from Lords of Darkness, I guess I never really gave it it’s fair due. Ignoring the 3e rule things that have since been updated in later books, or some lore that has been expanded on since, Lords of Darkness is really a good book.
-One thing that I’m going to take points away for is that it’s a soft cover book (I’m mean, right?). I don’t like soft cover sourcebooks. I like my novels soft cover, but my sourcebook hard cover. I’m one of those people that doesn’t break the spines of my books, and I keep everything in meticulous shape, in terms of the general condition of the book. Although my copy is still is in perfect condition, it can get ripped or bent way too easily for my tastes.
-I like how the book is organized, in terms of organizations and such. I don’t like how it’s organized in terms of mechanics, though. I’d much rather have the various PrCs in the book in one section, together, rather than in the individual organizational write-ups. Asides for the Darkmask, I don’t think this book has any compelling PrCs, so that’s neither here nor there, but if it did, that’d be a pain in the ass, flipping all over the place for the different classes.
-Anyway, the book doesn’t look it, but it’s 190 pages. And, it’s got a lot crammed into those 190 pages. There’s 27 different evil organizations, ranging from the Arcane Brotherhood to the Zhentarim. Some of the “organizations”, like the Beholders, or the Drow, or the Mind Flayers, aren’t really organizations as much as they are evil races, or evil societies, so I don’t think they necessarily fit very well, but it’s nice to have information on them nonetheless.
-The different organizations actually have a decent amount of information about them, which is surprising, especially in the 3e era. The major organizations have write-ups that range from six pages (The Church of Cyric) to 19 (the Red Wizards of Thay). The various minor organizations have about 3 pages each as well, which is pretty good considering these are billed as ‘Minor Organizations’, and many of them are kind of obscure, in context of the entire world (such as the Kir-Lanan).
-One thing that I think is worth mentioning: I like the pictures in this book a lot. For whatever reason, the artwork from this book isn’t available on the WotC website, so people who don’t have it can’t browse, but there’s a bunch of nice pictures in this one. The cover, for one, is pretty nice. The picture on page 13 looks like an unholy alliance between Skeletor, Darth Revan, and someone else. The Dracolich on page 20 looks awesome. The Dragon it once was on page 27 is awesome as well. The image of the aptly named ‘Skull Eyes’ spell, on page 188, is really creepy, I think.
-Overall, I’d give this sourcebook, out of a possible Five Beholders, Four Beholders and a Chicken.
And where's the chicken? :D
[i]Lords of Darkness[/i]
-One thing that I’m going to take points away for is that it’s a soft cover book (I’m mean, right?).
No.
The picture on page 13 looks like an unholy alliance between Skeletor, Darth Revan, and someone else.
HA!
-Lords of Darkness doesn't have an art gallery, so I can't link a picture of it, so sorry to people who don't have the book. You'll just have to take our word for it.
That said, it's quite good and I personally like it alot, although another similar book, and imo even the better one (2e's Cloak & Dagger) came out just a few months before Lords of Darkness. So for anyone who doesn't own C&D, LoD is highly useful, although I question it's usefulness for anyone who's got C&D.
atm i'm playing a shadar-kai dack pack warlock multiclass rogue...
dm is wanting to bring the essences of our old characters over but mine seems to complicate things... really really would love to have him back....
To begin with, I would delete at least one beholder if only for the reason they put Larloch on lvl 32.
That was pretty dumb. Granted, I'm pretty sure Ed's saying that Larloch is level 45 wasn't meant to be taken literally, but it was supposed to mean that this character is always more powerful than you are and you'd be stupid or crazy to try to take him on. Statting him up the way it was done in 3E makes killing Larloch seem like a more attainable goal.
That was pretty dumb. Granted, I'm pretty sure Ed's saying that Larloch is level 45 wasn't meant to be taken literally, but it was supposed to mean that this character is always more powerful than you are and you'd be stupid or crazy to try to take him on.
I'm very well aware of what Ed meant with his statement and also of what exactly Larloch is supposed to be in any campaign.
Statting him up the way it was done in 3E makes killing Larloch seem like a more attainable goal.
Which, according to Ed, shouldn't be the goal, for that matter. Anyway, if you still want him to be killed, at least do his stats as he deserves.
I'm very well aware of what Ed meant with his statement and also of what exactly Larloch is supposed to be in any campaign.
I wasn't trying to imply that you weren't aware of that.
And I'd have to agree, C&D was far superior for the most part, though LoD was still quite good.
-I have no problems with Larloch being the way he is, stat wise. Here is my opinion. If he is supposed to be "unwinnable", as is implied by Ed Greenwood with the stats and whatever else, make him a deity (which, in my opinion, are unwinnable), and leave it as that. Demideity, even.
Hmm, why not make the lowest level thug around (i.e. Cyric) a deity, then? Oh, damn, they did it already.
Well, I'm glad that the designers keep track of canon at least somewhat, and that they don't make anything that's supposed to be 'really powerful' a deity. Besides, we already got an ascended lich deity, Velsharoon. And then there's also Greyhawk's Vecna, of course. Imo the Realms don't need another lich god in such a fashion.
Btw, deities are far from unwinnable. Ok, not far, but they can surely be beaten. Of course, depends on whether or not you want them to be beaten. ;)
His lowish CR doesn't take into account his resources, either, which is another reason I don't have a problem with it. Manshoon might only be like Level 20 or whatever, but because of his resources, he ranks among the most powerful people out there, if not the most powerful.
Larloch's CR might be the most appropriate one a Realms NPC got regarding his proportion between possessions/wealth and character level (this doesn't mean that I think that his level is appropriate). Since NPCs generally have less personal wealth than PCs, and wealth is an highly important factor (especially on epic level) to determine the power of a NPC (i.e. it's CR), it's not Larloch who should get a higher CR because of his uncountable possessions, but the other NPCs who should get a lower CR due to their comparatively small amount of personal wealth. Comparatively here means in comparison to the amount epic PCs gain at the respective epic level ;)
Hmm, why not make the lowest level thug around (i.e. Cyric) a deity, then? Oh, damn, they did it already.
Well, I'm glad that the designers keep track of canon at least somewhat, and that they don't make anything that's supposed to be 'really powerful' a deity. Besides, we already got an ascended lich deity, Velsharoon. And then there's also Greyhawk's Vecna, of course. Imo the Realms don't need another lich god in such a fashion.
Btw, deities are far from unwinnable. Ok, not far, but they can surely be beaten. Of course, depends on whether or not you want them to be beaten. ;)
-Larloch isn't supposed to just be 'really powerful'. He's supposed to be, and I don't know this is a quote from Ed Greenwood, or Rin just paraphrasing, but, "always more powerful than you are". If that's the case, and he's presence is supposed to be that of an impossible-to-move brick wall, make him a deity (or some other cosmic entity), and give him the statistics and such to "back it up". I don't mind if he was a 46th Level Wizard Lich, you know, and that's that, and he does whatever he does. I don't like the concept that he's there to always be stronger than you (the characters, or whoever else). Mind you, I have no problems with the concept that in D&D there's always a bigger fish in the pond. With one of my players, I always had to "rub that in his face", to remind him that he wasn't as "big" as he thought he was, and that being a 12th Level Rogue was still on the fairly lowish side of things. I don't like Larloch as a "scaling threat", rather than a stationary one that can eventually be surpassed.
-Larloch isn't supposed to just be 'really powerful'. He's supposed to be, and I don't know this is a quote from Ed Greenwood, or Rin just paraphrasing, but, "always more powerful than you are". If that's the case, and he's presence is supposed to be that of an impossible-to-move brick wall, make him a deity (or some other cosmic entity), and give him the statistics and such to "back it up".
Fair enough.
So, according to your logic, when the PCs are deities themselves (or when they are on par with deities), would you make Larloch an overdeity, then? I, for my part, wouldn't.
Power not necessarily equates with divinity. So before you make him a deity or something that's even more far-fetched, I recommend the easiest and most obvious way, just increasing his lvl (to 46, maybe) or don't giving him stats at all.
-If Larloch is supposed to be something that is 'always undefeatable', that guy that is always bigger than you, looming in the shadows, give him stats reflective of that 'status'. Level 32, and even Level 46, neither is. Personally speaking, only a deity, or some other cosmic entity in that vein, fits that bill. With stats (even vague ones, like without a full statblock, or even just 'Level 46', or whatever else), you have a gauge of what can be done, what can't be done, and all of that. With a unique status, like deity, or something else completely, the gauge is a lot more murky. Look at the stats of different deities in Faiths and Pantheons. While it spells out a lot of what each deity can do, there's still a lot of variability and murkiness in terms of abilities and all of that. Plenty of major deities aren't even really spelled out in that manner.
The gap between an Epic character and even a lesser deity is as large as the gap between a 1st Level character and an Epic character.
So this is your own view of the things, isn't it?
Since looking at the crunch this would be incorrect insofar as some epic chars can indeed be more powerful than a lesser deity.
-If Larloch is supposed to be something that is 'always undefeatable', that guy that is always bigger than you, looming in the shadows, give him stats reflective of that 'status'. Level 32, and even Level 46, neither is. Personally speaking, only a deity, or some other cosmic entity in that vein, fits that bill. With stats (even vague ones, like without a full statblock, or even just 'Level 46', or whatever else), you have a gauge of what can be done, what can't be done, and all of that. With a unique status, like deity, or something else completely, the gauge is a lot more murky. Look at the stats of different deities in Faiths and Pantheons. While it spells out a lot of what each deity can do, there's still a lot of variability and murkiness in terms of abilities and all of that. Plenty of major deities aren't even really spelled out in that manner.
I can see what you're aiming at, and I don't agree with that, though I wouldn't say anything against your opinion; I could only tell you my opinion (once again).
But what I can say is that, with regards to the deities in F&P, deities alone aren't nearly as unique as you think them to be. Neither their fluff nor their crunch. Well, maybe to the common people in Faerun, but they're not the ones who aim at Larloch or other epic-level threats. Such guys would likely be more aware of their overall surroundings and would therefore also able to look behind the facade of divinity. So the advantage for Larloch of just being a deity is gone, then (but not his advantage of possessing SDA's and other such crazy deity-powers ;)).
-Larloch isn't supposed to just be 'really powerful'. He's supposed to be, and I don't know this is a quote from Ed Greenwood, or Rin just paraphrasing, but, "always more powerful than you are".
Paraphrasing.
Basically, I recall Ed summing up his thoughts about PCs wanting to kill Larloch as something to the effect of "Don't they have anything better to do?"So this is your own view of the things, isn't it?
-Didn't you ask about my PCs? That's how I, as a DM, would handle that. World building philosophy more importantly, I have a similar viewpoint.
-Didn't you ask about my PCs? That's how I, as a DM, would handle that.
Yes. I wasn't sure, though
This is why 4E FR's approach to NPC's and stat blocks is much better. It allows a DM to make up his/her own mind without giving a definitive answer. ;)
Without giving any answers, actually. :P
Without giving any answers, actually.
Exactly. It kinda kills the debate when there is nothing to debate about. :P
Silly. :P
In fact, I truly believe Katanas should be the only weapon in the 4e rulebooks, because it is the only weapon kewl enough for 4e.
Then they can vary them in size for differnt damage, starting at 5' long and going all the way up to the epic 20' Uber-Katana of Death & Destructuion. Your sword just can't be too big in the epic world of 4e. :D
Everyone knows that a Ninja weilding a 1000-fold Katana can cut through both the Drow and SEAL in one move while drawing the weapon.
-A 1000-fold uranium katana.
Everyone knows that a Ninja weilding a 1000-fold Katana can cut through both the Drow and SEAL in one move while drawing the weapon.
Silly. :P
In fact, I truly believe Katanas should be the only weapon in the 4e rulebooks, because it is the only weapon kewl enough for 4e.
Then they can vary them in size for differnt damage, starting at 5' long and going all the way up to the epic 20' Uber-Katana of Death & Destructuion. Your sword just can't be too big in the epic world of 4e. :D
I was thinking of opening a better organized discution of th whole SEALs Vs. Drow thing... :P
Just be sure to hold your breath every time the blade makes contact...
-It does good D&D damage. It's optimized! ;)