By Richard Baker, Ed Bonny and Travis Stout
-Lost Empires of Faerûn is one of the best 3e era sourcebooks that was printed for the Forgotten Realms. My praise for this book doesn’t end there, however. Honestly, Lost Empires of Faerûn is probably among the best sourcebooks printed concerning the Forgotten Realms, period. It has a couple of faults, all in all, but the book covers such a breadth of information that really, it is a must have for fans of the Forgotten Realms.
-I’ll do things a little out of order. Most of the mechanics stuff, in terms of feats, PrCs, items, monsters and spells, I don’t like. It’s a lot easier for me to make a list of the things that I did like…The Olin Gisir, the Sunmaster, the Phaerimm, the Tomb Tapper, the Imaskarcana, the various artifacts, and a few other things here or there. For the most part, though, I didn’t like most of that stuff. Half of the monsters are generic enough to either not be included (Do we really need stats for Drow Werebats?), or be put in a generic Monster Manual book (like the Giant Arachnids). The feats, PrCs, spells, and items are uninspiring.
-Lore setting stuff, though, is the meat of the book, and where it really shines. One extremely useful thing is that LeoF collects and compiles information from lots of other different sourcebooks that dealt with these various ancient empires and settlements. It’s always easier to consult one source, rather than ten. Except when you’re doing in-depth research, then. As we all know, 3e has always been skimpy on the information, and 2e sources are better most of the time.
-The specific chapters, whoever selected what would get what did a good job. The Crown War, the South, the East, the North, Netheril, Cormanthyr. I very much like all of the adventure seed tidbits in each chapter as well. Most of them are fairly well thought out, and most could be expanded into novels that I’d probably buy, had the timeline not been bumped up 104 years, and all of the radical changes that were made done.
-The artwork in this book was also good, I think. A lot of my favorite WotC sourcebook artwork comes from LeoF. The ‘Raising a Mythal’ image on page 45, the ‘Duel of the Crown Wars’ image on page 53, the ‘Battle in Inupras’ image on page 61, the ‘Ioulaum Destroys an Orc Horde’ image on page 96, the ‘Sunken Ahjuutal’ image on page 123, the ‘Fflar Challenges Aulmpiter’ image on page 132, the ‘Streets of Myth Drannor’ image on page 133, the ‘Imaskarcana’ image on page 159, there’s a whole bunch of them, as you can see.
-I wish that the book had more maps. There’s just one map in the whole book, a political map of Faerûn in –626 DR. The book discusses a lot more than just –626 DR. This map is useless for the Crown Wars, for example. I wish that there were more maps, just like the one on pages 48 and 49, depicting different ages. I also wish that the book could have had more- Batrachi, Sarrukh, Aeree, Dragons, Giants, and so on, but I understand that there are page count limits and all (and many of the detailed hadn't even been written yet)...
-So, all in all, out of a possible Five Beholders, I give Lost Empires of Faerûn Four Beholders and a Chicken.
Probably my most referenced source, right after the GHotR.
I have to say I didn't love this book. For example. I didn't care for how it revealed the mystery behind Aravae Irithyl's murder. That said, you make some good points about it, such as how it compiled information from many different sources into one.
-I ignore that so thoroughly, I completely forgot that the book did that. That's "endemic" to all 3e books, though, revealing "too much".
Still, I honestly can't say I disliked any of the 3e sourcebooks (although I may have liked some less then others).
Considering I felt the total opposite about the novels - I didn't care for most of the 3e ones - I have to admit they did pretty damn good with the sources.
Too bad most of those guys work elsewhere now.
Funny... I'd count Power of Faerun as the best myself, apart from the FRCS and GHotR. Though LEoF would probably come in a close second in my book.
I looked through it ONCE.
Seriously... for some reason, it just didn't hold my interest at all.
wish it had more info on the ''little'' obscure fallen civilizations (e.g. Ebenfar, Thereavel ...), and I expected Jhaamdath to be better detailed, it has a several thousand years gap
I looked through it ONCE.
Seriously... for some reason, it just didn't hold my intersst at all.
-I have it, but same here. It's not bad, mind you, but it's not something I flip through all that often, unless I need to.
-I ignore that so thoroughly, I completely forgot that the book did that. That's "endemic" to all 3e books, though, revealing "too much".
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with that sentiment.
Of course, I just ignored that bit of the book. The rest was really good, but not as useful as Power of Faerún to me, though that was probably due to my style of game (intrigue rather then ruin exploring)
Speaking of which, I was rather annoyed that it set Captain Fflar as an elf, rather then leaving that one up in the air. I did like how before that you could have individual races with their own 'Fflar' myths, so even the gnomes could think that he was a gnome!
I totally agree with what you're saying, but one correction: it was really the Last Mythal novels that gave a concrete identity (racial and otherwise) to Fflar. This sourcebook was just going along with what was already revealed.
Speaking of which, I was rather annoyed that it set Captain Fflar as an elf, rather then leaving that one up in the air. I did like how before that you could have individual races with their own 'Fflar' myths, so even the gnomes could think that he was a gnome!
-In addition to what Rin said, of course Fflar was going to be an Elf. The character wouldn't be anything less.
-The concept that Captain Fflar's race was forgotten in the sands of time was pretty stupid- the Fall of Myth Drannor took place just about five hundred years in the settings' past. We have plenty of concrete facts about even more obscure people much further back in Abeir-Toril's history.
-In addition to what Rin said, of course Fflar was going to be an Elf. The character wouldn't be anything less.
I like how you phrased that.
You make a good point about the probability of Fflar's race being forgotten, although like Uzzy I did appreciate the setup.
Perhaps the Elves purposely obscurred the detailed knowledge of Captain Fflar?
I could come-up with dozens of reasons, but the most obvious was to protect him and his family (or even decendents).
You know - this is the first time I'm actually reading the Cormanthyr section of the book. :embarrass
Shows you how little I care for the Elves (I haven't read the High Forest part either).
Anyhow, this gives me an idea... perhaps Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal were known under other names once...
Of course, the timeline would need some major fudging...
I didn't like how they made up new names for Netherese enclaves. I prefer to stick to names like Opus, Karsus, and Ioulaum, thank you very much.
-I prefer Opus (2e) to Selûnarra (3e). I prefer Thultanthar (3e) to Shade (2e). And, for the tie breaker, I prefer Eileanar (3e) to Karsus' Enclave (2e).
I like how you phrased that.
-All intentional, of course.
-In addition to what Rin said, of course Fflar was going to be an Elf. The character wouldn't be anything less.
-The concept that Captain Fflar's race was forgotten in the sands of time was pretty stupid- the Fall of Myth Drannor took place just about five hundred years in the settings' past. We have plenty of concrete facts about even more obscure people much further back in Abeir-Toril's history.
Yeah, but those people didn't rise to prominence in the final days of a truly apocalyptical battle, did they? Additionally, most of the information regarding him would have come from three hundred odd refugees, (or something in that region), or in the ruins of Myth Drannor itself. So I can see how evidence of the identity of Captain Fflar would have been distorted over time.
it was really the Last Mythal novels that gave a concrete identity (racial and otherwise) to Fflar. This sourcebook was just going along with what was already revealed.
I stand corrected. Never read the Last Mythal books, so my first exposure to the identity of Fflar came from the sourcebook.
Yeah, but those people didn't rise to prominence in the final days of a truly apocalyptical battle, did they? Additionally, most of the information regarding him would have come from three hundred odd refugees, (or something in that region), or in the ruins of Myth Drannor itself. So I can see how evidence of the identity of Captain Fflar would have been distorted over time.
-He engaged Aulmpiter in the most climactic battle of the Weeping War, and before that, served as a captain (obviously), and was the wielder of Keryvian, one of the Baneblades of Demron. Like I said, that the race, gender, class, and so on, of the famed Captain Starbrow "Fflar" Melruth was lost in the sands of time is silly, when we take into account that "solid" information on more ancient, more obscure individuals was readily available in 2e lore.
-All intentional, of course.
I know.;)
By the way, does anyone recall offhand if Fflar was specifically mentioned, in the 2E sourcebooks, as being male?
Reading through The Fall of Myth Drannor again gives me more reasons why Fflar may have been forgotten. He was only a major player in the fight for around twenty days, so there wasn't too much time for records and the like to be created. Add in a bit of racial pride from the surviving troops and citizens fleeing from Myth Drannor, and it's easy to see how Fflar would have become a 'Human Paladin' or an 'Elven Bladesinger' or even a 'Half Elven Ranger', or whatever in the popular imagination.
Besides, I like it that way.
Yes, his first mention is "Fflar, captain of Myth Drannor, slew a nycadaemon with his bare hands, or so the legends say . . ."
Thanks for the information.
But I suppose Fflar could be female!
True, there's no reason why one couldn't go with that.
Reading through The Fall of Myth Drannor again gives me more reasons why Fflar may have been forgotten. He was only a major player in the fight for around twenty days, so there wasn't too much time for records and the like to be created. Add in a bit of racial pride from the surviving troops and citizens fleeing from Myth Drannor, and it's easy to see how Fflar would have become a 'Human Paladin' or an 'Elven Bladesinger' or even a 'Half Elven Ranger', or whatever in the popular imagination.
-That doesn't cut it at all. We have definite facts about so many more obscure individuals. Bayard, here, for example was a CN Human Fighter 10, and worked as an animal trainer in a small business on Karsus' Enclave (N:EoM 97). Phindounma the Abominable is a NE Phaerimm M 22 (Don't know what the 'M' is supposed to represent. Maybe "Monster" or "Magician", but the index in the front doesn't list 'M') that one of the three Phaerimm that secretly controls the Beholder city of Ooltul, from the shadows (DDGttU, 69). We have concrete, definite stats for a minor nobody who has been dead for hundreds of years, and for a Phaerimm that, as far as most go, doesn't exist. Now, why we "can't" have concrete stats for Captain Fflar, who existed in Myth Drannor relatively recently, in which survivors are still living to this day, and as a member of the defenders of Myth Drannor, would have a "registration" somewhere or other, in someones hands? It defies logical believability, I am sorry.
Now, why we "can't" have concrete stats for Captain Fflar, who existed in Myth Drannor relatively recently, in which survivors are still living to this day, and as a member of the defenders of Myth Drannor, would have a "registration" somewhere or other, in someones hands? It defies logical believability, I am sorry.
Any registration would likely be in the ruins of Myth Drannor, and therefore very hard to get to. Even if such a registration was found, there's always the possiblity some common soldier grabbed Fflar's heraldry and led the charge, after all, it's far more inspiring to follow a Captain rather then a common trooper. (After all, grabbing someone else's armour and leading troops into battle as that other person has been going on since Patroclus)
Finally, lots of history defies logical believability. This doesn't so much though, it's all in how you spin it, as Markus mentioned previously.
As to the mystery of Fflar... I'd say it was more the result of a bunch of different races "claiming" him as one of their own, and enough conflicting stories to make any definite claims so much heresay as far as most are concerned. And even if there was a registry, wouldn't it likely just list his name and some rank/service details, and not go into too much detail about his racial origins, since it would be presumed that was already known? Given the longevity of elves, it would seem an unneccesary detail, with their memories and such, not to mention the relative commonality of Kiira at the time. I doubt historical preservation was much on their minds, since that's the job of scholars and sages, not soldiers.
Any registration would likely be in the ruins of Myth Drannor, and therefore very hard to get to. Even if such a registration was found, there's always the possiblity some common soldier grabbed Fflar's heraldry and led the charge, after all, it's far more inspiring to follow a Captain rather then a common trooper. (After all, grabbing someone else's armour and leading troops into battle as that other person has been going on since Patroclus)
Finally, lots of history defies logical believability. This doesn't so much though, it's all in how you spin it, as Markus mentioned previously.
-Still doesn't wipe the 'taint' of unbelievability going on. Again, there are so many more lesser known facts out there that we know with certainty. In the case of Captain Fflar, in which the era he lived in was well documented, and that there exist those living around the Elven world that personally knew him, and the descendants of those who knew him- as directly evidenced in the Last Mythal trilogy- there is no reason why who he is/was would have been a great, unknown mystery.
-I can understand the metagame motivation for making who he was a blank slate, for people to fill in at their leisure. I don't find that totally abhorrent. From the in-game perspective, however, no.
Usually "M" stood for Mage, as in a generalist wizard, as opposed to a specialist wizard... though maybe it could be Mentalist or something if its arcane age, but that's debateable.
-I have no clue. It was a Phaerimm, so 'Monster' (as in, it is a Monster with X amount of 'Hit Dice', or whatever 2e called them), and 'Mage' both make sense in the situation.
Yeah, but those people didn't rise to prominence in the final days of a truly apocalyptical battle, did they? Additionally, most of the information regarding him would have come from three hundred odd refugees, (or something in that region), or in the ruins of Myth Drannor itself. So I can see how evidence of the identity of Captain Fflar would have been distorted over time.
Just one more point I'd like to add to (and bolster) this.
How many non-Elves were at that final battle? When we (RW) record hostory, do we mention the fact that Ceaser was human? Of course not... the history is being written by us.
Now, I just know you're going to jump all over that, LK, and say that we do not live on a planet with other sentient races (that we know of). However... we are talking about Elves here, and this is the final 'apocalyptic battle' (as Uzzy put it), for an ELVEN city and culture.
Whatever Elf recorded those final days, probably some time after the events, he (or she) was 'squirreled away' in an Elven tower somewhere, and putting his memories to paper. He also probably had several others that were their helping him with this.
Now, if YOU, human Lord Karsus, can say "of course he was an Elf!", then why, oh why, would you think the incredibly haughty Elves would feel a need to identify Fflar as such?
Of course he was an Elf - therefore they didn't even think of writing down that detail... a detail that unfortunately got lost to the sands of time, as the tale of Fflar was told and retold among the other races that had a stake in Myth Drannor.
And if 5000 years from now there are a hundred different races living on Earth, there might just be some confusion as to what race Ceaser was. ;)
Of course we humans will know he was human... thats why we didn't bother to write it down.
EDIT: I just wanted to add that I agree that 3e's omnipotent presentation took-away a lot of the Realms mystery, and 'ancient mysteries' were a big part of it's flavor and attraction. I'm currently going through all my 2e sources (yet again) looking for even more 'lost' locales, and I have to tell you, its incredible the way everything was done. Almost NOTHING is set in stone! They left DMs with so many outs that no two had to come-up with the same plot device.
The current team (and most of 3e's) write like authors, NOT game-designers. They leave nothing open to interpretation. The sad part is that they think their new 'lore-lite' approach will recapture that, but what that really is is just 3e's omnipotent viewpoint rendered-down to a flavorless mass. 'Less' is not mysterious - it's just LESS.
How many non-Elves were at that final battle? When we (RW) record hostory, do we mention the fact that Ceaser was human? Of course not... the history is being written by us.
Now, I just know you're going to jump all over that, LK, and say that we do not live on a planet with other sentient races (that we know of). However... we are talking about Elves here, and this is the final 'apocalyptic battle' (as Uzzy put it), for an ELVEN city and culture.
-Myth Drannor was an "open city", and not exclusively an Elven city, from 261 DR onwards. It had a mix of numerous races and cultures within it. During the Weeping War, the Council of Twelve, which governed the city, was composed of eight Elven members, and four non-Elven members.
Now, if YOU, human Lord Karsus, can say "of course he was an Elf!", then why, oh why, would you think the incredibly haughty Elves would feel a need to identify Fflar as such?
-Because I feel that any "legendary" defender of Myth Drannor would need to be Elven, because of Myth Drannor's beginnings as an Elven-only settlement and it's existence as an Elven experiment in the relations between Elves and non-Elves. Elves capture the essence of that the Myth Drannor of old is "romanticized" about. How/What *I* feel is not in any way indicative of how others would feel. I have many opinions that others do not share.
Of course he was an Elf - therefore they didn't even think of writing down that detail... a detail that unfortunately got lost to the sands of time, as the tale of Fflar was told and retold among the other races that had a stake in Myth Drannor.
And if 5000 years from now there are a hundred different races living on Earth, there might just be some confusion as to what race Ceaser was. ;)
Of course we humans will know he was human... thats why we didn't bother to write it down.
-This explanation does not work, for two reasons. Reason number one: Netheril was a Human empire. Many Demihumans, such as Gnomes, were even enslaved. Whatever in-game "sources" (again, I find the 2e concept that individual were 'interviewed for their information' aberrant) that were 'interviewed' for Netheril: Empire of Magic were able to concretely identify the race, "class" and occupation of numerous "small time" individuals who lived during these days, such as the aforementioned Bayard the animal trainer. Using your hypothesis that, in cultures where one race or another is predominant, the need to include their race lessens, why, then are all of these Netherese Human NPCs list as being specifically Human? In any sourcebooks dealing with ancient settlements in which one race or the other was predominant, the need to list individuals as Humans, Elves, Dwarves, and so on shouldn't be included, then. But, they are. Reason number two: On Evermeet exists the Book of Eons, a magical tome that discusses, in addition to magical knowledge and theorem and Elven history, Elven deeds and heroes. The actions of Captain Fflar would fit the criteria of both 'deeds' and 'heroes', and as such, would be logged into the book. King Zoar himself, who would have access to the tome during his time as the King of Evermeet, was a fellow veteran of the wars in Myth Drannor. Numerous other veterans existed, who knew Captain Fflar personally, as evidenced in the Last Mythal trilogy. For him to not be logged into this book defies sense, when looking at the world as a fluid, living entity.
This highly increases the chances that non-Elves were there playing a major part right at the very end, something again backed up by The Fall of Myth Drannor, which explicitly puts human forces in Myth Drannor right at the end, defending the city in order to buy time for civilians to flee.
P.s. Karsus, I'm explicitly excluding The Last Mythal. Besides, even if Elves alive in today's Realms knew about Fflar, that still doesn't stop the possibility of someone else having taken up his armour. Or those Elves who knew him claiming Fflar as one of their own despite knowing otherwise, for their own patriotic reasons.
...which rather backs up the idea that human forces played a large part in the war.
-Or that those "running" the war felt that Human deaths were preferable to the deaths of other races, and as a result, Humans were more "cannon fodder" than others.
This highly increases the chances that non-Elves were there playing a major part right at the very end, something again backed up by The Fall of Myth Drannor, which explicitly puts human forces in Myth Drannor right at the end, defending the city in order to buy time for civilians to flee.
-A fact that was never contested, and agreed upon by myself, that does not lend credence to the whys/hows of the variability of Fflar's stats in The Fall of Myth Drannor.
P.s. Karsus, I'm explicitly excluding The Last Mythal. Besides, even if Elves alive in today's Realms knew about Fflar, that still doesn't stop the possibility of someone else having taken up his armour. Or those Elves who knew him claiming Fflar as one of their own despite knowing otherwise, for their own patriotic reasons.
-He himself was "obliterated", and the Weeping War ended thereafter, as since Aumpilter was also gone, the monstrous hordes of Army of Darkness simply swarmed the city with mere numbers, as opposed to any kind of stratagem. The crux of the point, however, is that, the source makes what is only 500 years ago to be a hidden mystery, which when analyzed in the context of the setting, looses sense. There is no special reason why it would be a mystery. We have the names, races, and so on, of plenty of doomed warriors, from ages longer past.
Anyway, you are correct that others are well known, but those others were not thrown to prominence during the destruction of an entire civilisation, in an apocalyptical battle, where his 'fame' lasted for approximately twenty days. Add in the minimal amount of survivors and the inaccessibility of the site of battle, and you can perhaps see why I feel it's entirely possible that Captain Fflar's true identity has been lost to time.
That elves who knew the truth existed is irrelevant, since most of them were likely on Evermeet anyway, much less even aware of the confusion to step forward to clear the matter up.
-Various survivors of Myth Drannor went on to live on Evermeet. The proverbial big fish being King Zoar, among others.
Yes, and how many stayed behind to clear up historical confusion among the 'lesser races'? :P
-The adventure is written by (seemingly) Elminster- who would have access to such things. Once again we have Elminster meddling where he ought not meddle.
Blame it on the person using him as a mouthpiece, not on the NPC. :P
-Oh, I blame the NPC. I blame the NPC.
-The adventure is written by (seemingly) Elminster- who would have access to such things. Once again we have Elminster meddling where he ought not meddle.
Mystra told him he was allowed (and quite correct!) to do it.
:PMystra told him he was allowed (and quite correct!) to do it.
-Khelben needs to
slap that and be done with it. Too bad he never got the chance to. Khelben the "lesser Chosen" indeed...-Khelben needs to
Khelben never did such because deep down, he too knows Elminster is correct, and his better! ;) :P
-Myth Drannor was an "open city", and not exclusively an Elven city, from 261 DR onwards. It had a mix of numerous races and cultures within it. During the Weeping War, the Council of Twelve, which governed the city, was composed of eight Elven members, and four non-Elven members.
Yes, which doesn't preclude the fact that it was an Elven City ruled by ELVES (you don't think those numbers are an accident, do you? To pass a referendum, the council needs a 2/3 majority - those other 'seats' were just for show ;) ).
-Because I feel that any "legendary" defender of Myth Drannor would need to be Elven, because of Myth Drannor's beginnings as an Elven-only settlement and it's existence as an Elven experiment in the relations between Elves and non-Elves. Elves capture the essence of that the Myth Drannor of old is "romanticized" about. How/What *I* feel is not in any way indicative of how others would feel. I have many opinions that others do not share.
You just did that 'thing' again I find so annoying. I say "Cheese is good", and you answer "but Ham is terrible!"
In no way does what you said there answer what you quoted. In fact, it appears your answer agrees with what I said (that Elves would not feel the need to record the fact that an Elven hero was in fact ELVEN). Note that I wasn't saying he was non-Elven, I was just trying to make excuses for why his racial identity was left-out of the histories. That is just one of many reasons I could come-up with. The only reason why I suggested that over others is because it fed more into the Elven haughtiness factor, rather then saying his identity was 'hidden on purpose'.
You could also go completly the other route - the Elves knew who Fflar was, but since Myth Drannor represented a 'group effort' and 'hope for a brighter future' (of less racial tensions), they may have had altruisitic motives in leaving out his race - they wanted EVERYONE to feel pride about those final battles, and that Fflar was 'one of their own'. This also fits in with the Elven mindset - they want others to think how they want them to think, and in a strange way, this is also once again attrributed to their haughtiness - "Let the lesser races have their day... WE know who Fflar was..."
-This explanation does not work...
Here's the problem - you are thinking like an FR fan and 'loremaster', and NOT like a gamer. You think just because stats are included in a book, that people (in FR) today know that stuff?
I have news for you... they don't even know what 'levels' are. :P
The reason why I love the 2e lore so much - its openess to interpretation - seems to be the exact reason why you dislike it so much. There is no such thing as 'Hard Facts' - what we know today could be disproven tomorrow.
In a game world, we call it a retcon. In the real world, we simply say "new information has come to light". Either way, it amounts to the same thing - facts do not exist, merely interpreations of evidence.
Yes, which doesn't preclude the fact that it was an Elven City ruled by ELVES (you don't think those numbers are an accident, do you? To pass a referendum, the council needs a 2/3 majority - those other 'seats' were just for show ;) ).
-We do not know how the Council of Twelve worked. The Fall of Myth Drannor does not state that a two-thirds majority was needed for any kind of legislation or whatever else to be passed.
You just did that 'thing' again I find so annoying. I say "Cheese is good", and you answer "but Ham is terrible!"
In no way does what you said there answer what you quoted. In fact, it appears your answer agrees with what I said (that Elves would not feel the need to record the fact that an Elven hero was in fact ELVEN). Note that I wasn't saying he was non-Elven, I was just trying to make excuses for why his racial identity was left-out of the histories. That is just one of many reasons I could come-up with. The only reason why I suggested that over others is because it fed more into the Elven haughtiness factor, rather then saying his identity was 'hidden on purpose'.
You could also go completly the other route - the Elves knew who Fflar was, but since Myth Drannor represented a 'group effort' and 'hope for a brighter future' (of less racial tensions), they may have had altruisitic motives in leaving out his race - they wanted EVERYONE to feel pride about those final battles, and that Fflar was 'one of their own'. This also fits in with the Elven mindset - they want others to think how they want them to think, and in a strange way, this is also once again attrributed to their haughtiness - "Let the lesser races have their day... WE know who Fflar was..."
-I can only give you an answer that explains how *I* feel. You asked me why *I* said and felt what I said. And, in my response, I explained that that was how *I* felt on the issue.
-On the matter why the race of Captain Fflar wasn't recorded, you can go down the alternative route: "Why wasn't it recorded?" You seemed to be alluding to the fact that, since he was an Elf, no one bothered to write it down, since they were Elves. Other Elven NPCs had their races written down, so that offsets your theory right there. Captain Fflar is the exception here, not the rule, otherwise every Elven NPC would not have his/her race recorded, since the Elves at the time would have thought to themselves, "Duh. Of course he is an Elf. I'm not even going to bother writing that down, since it's so obvious". On the matter of "letting other races have him"...As you yourself said, Elves are haughty? Why would they do this? And, why, this one random time, with this one random hero? There have been plenty of other more important, more (possibly) well known heroes. Why a Fflar, as opposed to some other, grander hero?
Here's the problem - you are thinking like an FR fan and 'loremaster', and NOT like a gamer. You think just because stats are included in a book, that people (in FR) today know that stuff?
-Concerning certain things- like the race of Captain Fflar, consider who dictated the product to Ed Greenwood, who, in turn, had that information turned into a D&D product- yes. Like I said earlier, there are far more obscure and ancient characters who we have plenty of concrete facts about. That Captain Fflar is one of the "exceptions", I don't find that very realistic, from the point of view that this was Elminster here, sharing the information. He would not know this answer...why?
The reason why I love the 2e lore so much - its openess to interpretation - seems to be the exact reason why you dislike it so much. There is no such thing as 'Hard Facts' - what we know today could be disproven tomorrow.
-Indeed. That, and a few other things, mainly that it seems extremely corny, and problematic for all Forgotten Realms products that we have as having been dictated by Elminster, or whoever else, to Ed Greenwood.
In a game world, we call it a retcon. In the real world, we simply say "new information has come to light". Either way, it amounts to the same thing - facts do not exist, merely interpreations of evidence.
-Retcons and "new information inserted in after the fact changing things" are two different beasts. The latter is, literally, the new addition of information, elaborating on things, while the former is just replacing old information with new information. The latter is good, in theory, while the former is not. Rich Baker giving Captain Fflar a definite race, and attributes, and so on, is an example of "new information inserted in after the fact changing things". Something saying that Captain Fflar never existed, that'd be a retcon. Reality can't have retcons- we can only have a spin on the "new information inserted in after the fact changing things" theme- "information that is new to us, that changes things".
I have news for you... they don't even know what 'levels' are. :P
-Right. The fourth wall is broken time and time again when a source that is supposed to be written from an in-character perspective, such as Elminster, or Volo, or Aurora, lists things like D&D stats, or D&D rules, or whatever else. In Elves of Faerûn, I try to keep this separate, to a degree, including all D&D stats and rules and so on in parenthesis' during 'character monologues'.
--Concerning certain things- like the race of Captain Fflar, consider who dictated the product to Ed Greenwood, who, in turn, had that information turned into a D&D product- yes. Like I said earlier, there are far more obscure and ancient characters who we have plenty of concrete facts about. That Captain Fflar is one of the "exceptions", I don't find that very realistic, from the point of view that this was Elminster here, sharing the information. He would not know this answer...why?
I'd just like to point out that Elminster is supposed to be an unreliable narrator.;) He's also the type to keeps things obscure if it serves his purpose to do so.
Sorry... couldn't resist... :embarrass
But do you at least see where I'm coming from? As a Gamemaster since the Jurrasic Age, I love the way things are left, because I can make them say whatever I want - thats the PERFECT presentation for a game setting.
Here's the thing - they tried to recepture that with the 4e FRCG, and instead of that 'air of mystery', we got that 'feeling of emptiness'.
2e's precentation makes me think-up answers. 4e's makes me want to ask more questions. Without that 'narrative style', it just becomes a history textbook. It started in 3e, and it got so much worse in 4e.
Volo's Guides were so popular because of that presentation - it's what gave the Realms its flavor. Now the flavor is 'recycled cardboard'.
I don't want this to turn into another anti-4e debate, but the bottom line is it began in 3e, and this tome - despite the overall love I have for it - is the perfect example of why the Omnipotent third-person presentation is just plain bad for a game-product.
I'd just like to point out that Elminster is supposed to be an unreliable narrator.;) He's also the type to keeps things obscure if it serves his purpose to do so.
-Right. Like I said before:
-Oh, I blame the NPC. I blame the NPC. And blame him, I do. Damn that Elminster, for everything. Get out of the damned limelight, and give others a chance, for a change!
-Right. Like I said before:
-Oh, I blame the NPC. I blame the NPC. And blame him, I do. Damn that Elminster, for everything. Get out of the damned limelight, and give others a chance, for a change!
*All of a sudden...Mystra herself appears out of a whirlwind!*
"Elminster is *correct* Lord Karsus--as always." She smiles warmly.
But do you at least see where I'm coming from?
-I understood where you were coming from from the beginning. I just don't agree with it- as in that it is used, not your opinion on it (well, on that, your opinion, I don't agree, a little).
*All of a sudden...Mystra herself appears out of a whirlwind!*
"Elminster is *correct* Lord Karsus--as always." She smiles warmly.
-Don't make me cast that spell again. Because, I swear, I'll do it. And, aren't you supposed to be dead or something? Again.
Whereas Elminster -who never cast a spell above lvl 9 - has achieved world-fame, is beloved (and hated) by millions, and gets all the babes, even though he's an old goat. :D
Elminster got into Mystra's pants, and Karsus couldn't even wear her pants!
He's just mad because with all his power, in the end old he was was a nerd-boy failure.
-...I am a nerd-boy failure...I don't even have a car to hide my perceived faults behind shiny rims and all of that stuff...
-...I am a nerd-boy failure...I don't even have a car to hide my perceived faults behind shiny rims and all of that stuff...
Well... I was talking about your persona, not you personally.
When you get to my age and all you have are your D&D books and you live in a walk-in-closet in your sister's house, THEN you can complain.
Last year I applied for The Biggest Loser TV show... they responded with an E-Mail that said "Sorry... No professionals." :P
I'm guessing its the daily ego boosts... :P
:D
I didn't like how they made up new names for Netherese enclaves. I prefer to stick to names like Opus, Karsus, and Ioulaum, thank you very much.
You'll have to blame me for that one - I HATED the enclave names provided in the Netheril boxed set on the whole and prevailed upon the eventual writer of the Netheril section to give us better sounding alternatives. As appears to be the case, YMMV on whether that was a good idea or not.-- George Krashos
A lot of 1e/2e products didn't follow the same naming-conventions as ED, so we wind up with quite a few 'Earth names' floating around (which I chalk-up to similar-sounding Torillian names being translated into our language).
What I don't understand is why Volo speaks perfect English.
