Up to this point, the legends and histories of the three races mostly agree. Some details may differ -- most notably the name by which the unified race was known -- but the broad outline is the same. With the rebellion of Lolth, however, the histories diverge. They agree on the fact of Lolth's revolt: She turned against her sister and Corellon and led her chosen ones in battle against the other elves. The reason for her revolt is less clear. The most common legends include the following:
Lolth grew tired of sharing her power and authority with Sehanine and tried to kill her sister, to claim the shadows and the moon as her exclusive domain.
Lolth was jealous of the affection between Corellon and her sister and tried to kill one or the other of them.
Lolth descended into the Elemental Chaos and even plumbed the Abyss in a search for knowledge or power, and she made alliances with demons -- and then Corellon and Sehanine sought to punish her blasphemy.
Or Lolth believed that her chosen people should rule the elf race and led them to seize power, which only then resulted in conflict among the gods.
As has been said, that's Core Lore. I would still assume that the streamlined FR pantheon will take up some of this. You know, according to Demihuman Deities, Sehanine is alternatively called daughter and wife of Corellon, so there is actually room to manoeuvre here. We know about next to nothing about Araushnee's pedigree, of course.
Sehanine and Selûne got the moon, Shar got darkness and the night, Lolth/Araushnee got darkness and rule over the predominant race in the darkness below. Not exactly 1+1=2, but very close.
As has been said, that's Core Lore. I would still assume that the streamlined FR pantheon will take up some of this. You know, according to Demihuman Deities, Sehanine is alternatively called daughter and wife of Corellon, so there is actually room to manoeuvre here. We know about next to nothing about Araushnee's pedigree, of course.
Yeah. And Forgotten Realms Fans got Screwed. That's what we got.
Auranshee and Sehanine WERE indeed sisters (IMHO), just as Shar and Selûne were. It makes perfect sense that the FR War of Light and Darkness is actually the Elven myth pertaining to the War of the Gods (When Auranshee 'fell' and became Lolth). The Dragons also have similar myths, and their's involve a second sun (Amaunator/Lathander?).
Couldn't it be possible that all of these myths are just different races retelling the same proto-story?
The Seldarine then all become VERY early aspects of these primordial gods.
Of course, in that case, Lolth becomes Shar, which would sync up perfectly in the less-is-more world of 4e. ;)
In order to work this into my own Cosmology/pre-myths, I would have to say the same thing happened TWICE, and that Araushnee and Sehanine had the same Mother, but different fathers (and were twins).
Gods... what a bunch of pigs... :P
*Also, I had Corellon and Gru'Mass's mother as Titania, and Auranshee's Mom as The Queen of Air and Darkness (Titania's evil sister), making them all cousins as well!!!
Its like a divine episode of Jerry Springer.
Sehanine and Lolth are not only sisters in 4E, but twin sisters, apparently.
-Hmm...Twin sisters, where one is pale, very much like one of those China dolls, and the other is dusky skinned, with snow white hair. Am I the only one wondering what's up? :P
-Hmm...Twin sisters, where one is pale, very much like one of those China dolls, and the other is dusky skinned, with snow white hair. Am I the only one wondering what's up?
It happens.
It happens.
-Makes sense, since one parent was Black and the other White, in that story.
In the case of my own personal Cosmology, the children had the same mothers but different fathers, which would lead to twins having different parentage - and it HAS happened RW.
The mother, of course, has to be pretty 'unparticular' about her partners, to put it delicately, for that to happen, but it does... and of course, the twins would be fraternal, not identical.
Also, I have Frey (of the Vanir, making him Elven/Fey, not Aesir) as Corellon's daddy, and Malekith the Accursed (Marvel Comics Dark Elf Lord) as Gru'maas' pa-pa. Never really considered the two girls father before - I suppose Erebus would work for Lolth, especially if she really is Shar.
We could just use Oberon for Sehanine's dad - but that would mean he cheated on Titania, and although she strikes me as promiscous, he doesn't (although ALL Fey are in folklore). If not him, then I suppose Ptah might have gotten his 'dwarf' on.
Having fun with this whole 'proto-pantheon' concept. :D
Of course, Ptah should be Ao in 4e.
This is getting downright comical now... sounds more like a soap opera plot than an RPG.
Look at Greek mythology. That stuff had hundreds of years real time to develop -- all of WotC's collective work couldn't even scratch the surface of the weirdness and inconsistency inherent to "real" mythologies.
Beyond that, with mythology we're probably looking at the work of thousands of individuals, with stories that were likely passed word of mouth, with the 'telephone' phenomena going on with it... I don't expect it to be logical or consistent given that context. WotC has no such convenient excuse really...
Hope that made sense, I'm a little incoherent from lack of sleep... damned insomnia.
Probably that I just see the Realms pantheon to be very Olympian in nature, from their close interest in mortal affairs to the scheming politics going on in the background, and all the way to how epic-level mortals can actually go toe-to-toe with their gods. So it's not all that much of a stretch of imagination to see things change (and head to strange directions) on a moment's notice.
-Many elves still revere Corellon and (particularly) Sehanine, but many others worship Melora, god of the wilds where they make their homes. Even those elves who drift toward evil rarely turn to Lolth. The legend of her rebellion stings too much. Instead, they worship the Raven Queen, Zehir, or occasionally savage Gruumsh.
What, what what?!
Now, you sound surprised? :D (Remember, all Core Lore and with a Will save DC 2 you are eligible to ignore it.
Of course, Ptah should be Ao in 4e.
-Ao was already a 'free roaming' (as per his portfolios overdeity (supposedly) anyway, so why not?
It sounds like in 4e ALL of the gods will be part of this one big, extended 'family' of primordial gods, who have splintered off and fragmented across the myriad planes.
Lets see, Obad-Hai as Sylvanus is a no-brainer, and probably Rillifane as well.
we have our new Melora, who sounds like the Primordial Archtype for Mielikki/Ki/Khalreshar/Dianna.
We have our Talos/Thor/Gruumsh storm/Destroyer type (wonder whats going to happen to Umberlee? Merger with Auril as a Frost/winter-weather type goddess?)
I could 'almost' get to like the Pantheonic simplifications, if it didn't create a lot of weirdness with established canon.
Now, you sound surprised? :D (Remember, all Core Lore and with a Will save DC 2 you are eligible to ignore it.
i failed it
-That specific story would mess up established canon, yes, but nothing in Forgotten Realms continuity says that Sehanine Moonbow and Araushnee couldn't have been sisters.
if they were, loads of cred to Corellon.
"i sh*gged you and your sister, Lolth!"
Oh, to be young again... and not quite so friggin' fat...
if they were, loads of cred to Corellon.
"i sh*gged you and your sister, Lolth!"
-And, if they were his children, as well? :P
-Crazy deities, and their crazy relations...
-On a more personal note, as MT stated, this would very much parallel the Shar-Selûne story. Because of that factor, I do not like the idea.
So yes, presumedly many of them were brothers and sisters.
Shar lives in the Demonweb Pits? I don't think so!
Also, Lolth was a Demon first (at least, that was the original story), and she attained godhood later. FR ret-conned that, so she was a god before[ she was a Demon (and then a god again!)
Shar is monolithic - you can't say that she was EVER a Demon, it doesn't make sense. She's always been pegged as one of the 'Primordial Gods' from the dawn of (time?) the world. If they make them one and the same, that would mean that Shar must have resided in the Abyss at some point...
Hmmmm... and been Asmodeus' equal (and opposite)?
Hmmmm... that does have possibilities...
What if Shar doesn't really want everything destroyed? What if she really just wants everything to return to the Primal Elemental Chaos it was at the beginning? That places her right at the center of 4e's Elemental Maelstrom...
Making her the Queen of Demons... could work, I guess.
Remember that the word "Seldarine" means "brothers and sisters of the High Forest."
-‘The Fellowship of Brothers and Sisters of the Wood’, technically, but close enough. The effect is the same.
Imagine if Lolth = Shar though. It'd be totally ****ed up.
-There already exists a group of Drow heretics who believe that Lolth and Shar are one.
Sigh... I hope not.
-There already exists a group of Drow heretics who believe that Lolth and Shar are one.
Any source to back this up?
Any source to back this up?
-Demihuman Deities:
The only such cult known to be still active, albeit in a debased form, is the She-Spider Cult, a Thayan-based sect that tried to link worship of Shar with devotion to Lolth. Opposed in the end by both goddesses, the Cult enjoyed initial success as a secret society operating slaving and drugrunning operations in Mulhorand, Unther, and southern Thay. They eventually degenerated into a criminal gang without divine support. The Cult still stages fake rituals to thrill worshipers and to slay foes under the guise of sacrifices.
-Demihuman Deities:
Not wanting to sound pedantic, but that is not what you wrote in the previous statement. Close enough, but not exactly true.
Not wanting to sound pedantic, but that is not what you wrote in the previous statement.
-Sure it is. They "[linked] worship of Shar with devotion to Lolth". They believed they were worshipping Shar, by sending devotion to Lolth. Thus, Lolth = Shar.
-That is how I interpret it.
Who knows? In 4e, we may find out that that group had the right of it, even though it specifically says that they were "opposed by both goddesses".
Easily rectifiable - Shar/Lolth wanted this important secret to REMAIN a secret, and these jerks were blowing the whistle on her.
In 4e, we may find out that that group had the right of it, even though it specifically says that they were "opposed by both goddesses".
-Of course. The passage in Demihuman Deities doesn't actually say that these heretics were incorrect. Again, I have misgivings about such a possible truth, as it goes against my own preconcieved notions of things, but as it stands, nothing specifically refutes it (except the myths we have for both deities).
I was hoping for some new information and am not interested in a discussion of finer details of old lore. Just in case.
It is not what is written in DD though and had it indeed been the case, the author would have certainly made that more explicit.
-Seems obvious enough to me, and the others, apparently.
So it wouldnt surprise me that sehanine and lolth before the fall were sisters.
funny: you know, every time I see this thread,I tend to remember that all elves greet each other as brother or sister, and call half-elves cousins.
So it wouldnt surprise me that sehanine and lolth before the fall were sisters.
-The entire Elven race is one big happy family. Except for, you know, the Drow. They're like the Uncle that you have, but wish you didn't.
Sorry, what was that bit about elves, of any sort, worshipping Gruumsh? Even for core material, that is a-b-s-u-r-d.
-No, that's 4e!
-Seems obvious enough to me, and the others, apparently.
Two, at least. Still I don't think that Mars Teutatis and Sulis Minerva worshippers made one out of two ... and from them at least we actually know that they worshipped two deities at once. In this case one migh t argue about aspects, but nothing more. For apart from darkness, there is next to nothing which links Shar and Lolth.
Maybe they're all just one deity with a really horrendous case of Multiple Personality Disorder.
And Elves, you gotta figure certain 'taboos' wouldn't carry over from humans. Since you great-great grandson could look the same age as your Grandma, it makes it kind of hard to avoid akwrd situations. Unless you know your entire family tree (and Elves are spread all over the continent), you could easily be shagging your great-great-great Auntie and not even know it.
Especially with Elminster around... everyones related.
Also, there were only a handful of Elves that came over in when Tintageer fell, and I think only one Moon Elf.
He must have gotten REALLY busy. :D
Two, at least. Still I don't think that Mars Teutatis and Sulis Minerva worshippers made one out of two ... and from them at least we actually know that they worshipped two deities at once. In this case one migh t argue about aspects, but nothing more. For apart from darkness, there is next to nothing which links Shar and Lolth.
This might be similar to what happened in the early day of anti-Seldarine worship, as mentioned in the LEoF. They got Lolth, Ghaunadar, Vhaerun, Kiaransalee (sp?) all mixed up. Ergo, there is a precedent among Dark Elves for trying to combine various religous traditions into one.
Maybe they are into 'efficiency' or something.
This might be similar to what happened in the early day of anti-Seldarine worship, as mentioned in the LEoF. They got Lolth, Ghaunadar, Vhaerun, Kiaransalee (sp?) all mixed up. Ergo, there is a precedent among Dark Elves for trying to combine various religous traditions into one.
Maybe they are into 'efficiency' or something.
Kia's spelling is perfect, but Ghaunadaur is missing an "u" :D
Anyway, that sect sprang up 20,000odd years into Realms history, so by then one would expect people (even humans) knew quite a bit about Shar and Lolth. ;)
Anyway II., I doubt that we will find an answer to that hereabouts, whatever we think on that matter.
For apart from darkness, there is next to nothing which links Shar and Lolth.
-I didn't say their particular heresy makes sense. But, it is what it is.
The latter is impossible, the first - vaguely possible. Sehanine is moon elven and Araushnee was dark elven, and if they were children of the same god, (possibly Corellon) they could have been of different subraces (provided they had different mothers). Or they just sprang into existence.
Sehanine is moon elven and Araushnee was dark elven, and if they were children of the same god, (possibly Corellon) they could have been of different subraces (provided they had different mothers). Or they just sprang into existence.
When those goddesses were born, there weren't any elves at all, so therefore there were no elven subraces. Aerdrie Faenya isn't literally an avariel, Deep Sashelas isn't an aquatic elf, Rillifane Rallathil isn't a green elf (though he might be a tree), Fenmarel Mestarine isn't a wild elf, and Corellon Larethian isn't a sun elf. They're seen that way by some of their mortal followers, but not by all of them - dolphins worship Deep Sashelas as a dolphin, non-avariels don't represent Aerdrie Faenya with wings, aquatic elves depict Corellon with webbed hands and feet, avariels depict Labelas Enoreth with wings, and sprites and pixies depict Erevan Ilesere as one of their own kind. They don't belong to mortal subraces because they were never mortal. They're not really elves; they're gods, which is a very different kind of creature.
In truth, the gods are all of those things and none of them. They might well have simply sprung into existence, but they have family relationships as well. These relationships aren't exactly like mortal relationships; they're metaphors for how the gods relate to one another, presented in ways that mortals can understand. So Lolth and Sehanine may well be sisters, and cousins, and mother and daughter, and at the same time Lolth may be a demon who insinuated herself into the Seldarine without being related to any of them, with the whole of it only comprehensible from the point of view of another god. Just as Aerdrie Faenya, Sehanine, and Hanali Celanil may be sisters, mother and daughters, and the same person all at once, the relationships between gods is not simple.
Remember that the word "Seldarine" means "brothers and sisters of the High Forest."
So yes, presumedly many of them were brothers and sisters.
Possibly, but I'd like to point out that "brother" or "sister" need not always be used in the literal sense.
C'mon people!!! Like who didn't know that Shar and Lolth are sisters? You all act like 4ED made you all dumb or something!
Thats what I'm talking about. :P
We just 'perceived' everything wrong before, do to all the 'bad info' printed in the 1e and 2e books.
I wonder if its possible to start a class-action suit against a company for publishing all those 'lies'?
At the very least, we should be re-imbursed.... ;)
Thats what I'm talking about. :P
We just 'perceived' everything wrong before, do to all the 'bad info' printed in the 1e and 2e books.
I wonder if its possible to start a class-action suit against a company for publishing all those 'lies'?
At the very least, we should be re-imbursed.... ;)
That would indeed be justice for sure. :D
At the very least, we should be re-imbursed.... ;)
-I think a great way to sell more 4e material would have been to include some kind of coupon, or voucher, or something, for a discount on the 4e FRCS.
Then take it a step further, and give a another coupon in the MM towrd the purchase of the FRCG. In that way, each book purchase will lead to a future book purchase.
WotC's marketing guys are completely clueless.
I bet I could make 4e a success, without even looking at the rules.
But then again, I could sell ice to an Eskimo. :D
Edit - They better make them $20 again, like they did with the last initial release. People are going to need some sort of incentive to pull them away from the books they already own, especially with other companies continuing to support 3e.
That should have came with each of the preview books - a $5 one for in each, one for the PHB, and the other for the DMG.
-Or those. That would make even more sense, as they are geared for 4e, specifically.
-No, that's 4e!
4E = Embarrassingly Egregious Errors of Evaluation,
4E = Embarrassingly Egregious Errors of Evaluation,
Im stealing that quote if I may :DSo who's hotter, Lolth or Shar?
Going by the book, Shar is as cold as ice and Lolth has consorts by the score. No hard guesses on that one really.
So who's hotter, Lolth or Shar?
-Lolth has a carapace, whereas Shar does not. Shar is a Gothic girl, most of whom are often very good looking.
Going by the book, Shar is as cold as ice and Lolth has consorts by the score. No hard guesses on that one really.
-Shar has also wooed her fair share of suitors, including Greater Deities, such as Jergal, who came to his senses before she could "ensnare" him.
Don't vote, can't complain when its all said and done then... :P
-Ugh, I hate when fellow college students complain and complain about, say, who won the 2004 Presidential Campaign, and yet, when you ask, they didn't vote. What morons...
Don't think there's been an election I haven't voted in since I turned 18...
-Good Stigger, performing his civic duties.
So who's hotter, Lolth or Shar?
Sune.
i'm not promiscous, just unlucky.
I'd go with being promiscuous as well... if you're gonna pay, at least get some enjoyment out of it before it kills you. :D
But then again, new girl yesterday. And my, what a nice pillow!
Alright, i might be a touch promiscuous
-Good Stigger, performing his civic duties.
The USA is doomed. We are watching the historic fall of an empire.
Get all of your assets into stable commodities...
Great Depression 2...coming soon....
Sune.
-Well, obviously. But, she wasn't a choice!
The USA is doomed. We are watching the historic fall of an empire.
Get all of your assets into stable commodities...
Great Depression 2...coming soon....
-Sucks for the rest of the world, then.
-Well, obviously. But, she wasn't a choice!
-Sucks for the rest of the world, then.
Uhmm no...you guys are going to pay the price; sure the rest of the world will suffer some as well but the US economic and foreign policies have doomed it domestically.
My advice is to leave the country very soon...get packing!
Uhmm no...you guys are going to pay the price; sure the rest of the world will suffer some as well but the US economic and foreign policies have doomed it domestically.
My advice is to leave the country very soon...get packing!
-Riiight...I'll, uh, keep that in mind.
-Riiight...I'll, uh, keep that in mind.
Near 10 trillion USD debt to China
12 billion USD for the occupation of Iraq
58+ trillion in entitlements (you really think you will see your social security when you are of age?)
700+ bases in over 130 countries...
There is no president that will 'cure' these ills; this is the twilight of the USA; why do Americans believe their country to be some grand exception to the rule? A country which overextends itself, particularly overseas, is doomed to economic collapse. Take the time and watch...without the rolled eyes...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS2fI2p9iVs
But back on topic or WizO's will have our hides!
And which ties in with the recovery from the Spellplague, since no one thing will fix it, aside from a ret-con reversal of it, so it will be a combination of factors that help Faerun restore itself... yes. That's it.
And i wouldn't say New Deal ended it; it helped, but didn't end the Great Depression. You had the Recession in '37, amongst others.
Which reminds you to ask you whether you think they have a recession over at the Timdo.. ahem ... Parkhead these days? ;)
Which reminds you to ask you whether you think they have a recession over at the Timdo.. ahem ... Parkhead these days? ;)
Oy! WizO's! Secterianism! ;p
Well, tbh, WHO got through the Champions' League qualifiers?
And WHO didn't play their players on the national team, but half a week later played them against Celtic? And we get called traitors! ;p
-Well, obviously. But, she wasn't a choice!
She is now.;)
PS: The USA is not doomed, either.
Azoun V's New Deal?
-His reign as monarch of Cormyr did include large political changes, that aggrivated the nobles. So, perhaps...
She is now.;)
-In that case, Sune does win.
Oy! WizO's! Secterianism! ;p
Nope. Not a sectarian word in there! :P
Well, tbh, WHO got through the Champions' League qualifiers?
Who is still in Europe? :D
And WHO didn't play their players on the national team, but half a week later played them against Celtic? And we get called traitors! ;p
Interestingly enough, it were the Scotland docs (Sic!) who sent the players back.
Regarding the topic, I'm still wondering who of all these neat goddesses will be left (and still real deities) come August 2008 and who will see an amalgamation into "greater beings" ...
Regarding the topic, I'm still wondering who of all these neat goddesses will be left (and still real deities) come August 2008 and who will see an amalgamation into "greater beings" ...
-Sehanine Moonbow being merged with Selûne was the exact example that Rich Baker used, when word got out that this was going to be happening a few months back.
-I have a guy feeling that Hanali Celanil being merged with Sune isn't that far off the mark, either.
Who is still in Europe? :D
Interestingly enough, it were the Scotland docs (Sic!) who sent the players back.
Regarding the topic, I'm still wondering who of all these neat goddesses will be left (and still real deities) come August 2008 and who will see an amalgamation into "greater beings" ...
Well, Gers are still in some European cup, i hear. For those who didn't qualify for the Champions' League=)
Didn't hear that it was the Scotland docs that said it; but Smith did tell Burley to go easy on his players (They're not as tough as the Bhoys, we know that) and the players were okay to play against Celtic three days later... 4/5 players failed to answer - WEAK! ;p
But think they're turning Hanali into a Sunite aspect. Mean i've read it somewhere, and as far as 4th ed's concerned, sounds about right.
Well, Gers are still in some European cup, i hear. For those who didn't qualify for the Champions' League=)
Didn't hear that it was the Scotland docs that said it; but Smith did tell Burley to go easy on his players (They're not as tough as the Bhoys, we know that) and the players were okay to play against Celtic three days later... 4/5 players failed to answer - WEAK! ;p
But think they're turning Hanali into a Sunite aspect. Mean i've read it somewhere, and as far as 4th ed's concerned, sounds about right.
We did actually qualify for the CL, short memories et al?!
Happen to face one Barcelona and Lyon too early though.The players were okay for the biggest game in the calendar seven days after getting injured (and some of them still are), and it is just fair that Smith would ask Burley not to play them in a game which is of no consequence whatsoever. Wonder what you think about your chairman asking the SPL to force us to play 4 games in 8 days though. Sportsmanship, no doubt?!
Uh well, maybe we make this a PM chat from now on? People might get the impression that we talk off topic here
But think they're turning Hanali into a Sunite aspect. Mean i've read it somewhere, and as far as 4th ed's concerned, sounds about right.
-It had to have been something that someone was hypothesizing, as there is nothing official that states this.
In Heir of Prophecy that theory is mention (The main character is a half-elf cleric of BOTH :eek
That protagonist was not unique--it's possible to be a cleric of more than one deity. That novel also didn't necessarily "push" the theory of Sune and Hanali being the same entity--perhaps a character mentioned something like that, but that doesn't make it a fact or even a plausible theory.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Just saying also
Uh well, maybe we make this a PM chat from now on? People might get the impression that we talk off topic here
Trying to get the last word, eh!?
Well, even my Gers pals were quite aghast at them not playing - When the country calls, you answer! Like, if Scotland selected me for the hairdressers' international team, i'd arrive with scissors, combs and haircurlers (Even if i don't know a thing about it!)!
But yeah, let's just end it ;p
Trying to get the last word, eh!?
Well, even my Gers pals were quite aghast at them not playing - When the country calls, you answer! Like, if Scotland selected me for the hairdressers' international team, i'd arrive with scissors, combs and haircurlers (Even if i don't know a thing about it!)!
But yeah, let's just end it ;p
Last Words? No, ... well, not yet. Orcus was one who had somesuch and we know what happened to him while he had it.
As for Country, playing and all, I remind you about Post 98 and my remark on docs.
Re topic:
Essentially, apart from that Selûne / Sehanine example, we have no clue as yet what will happen to the deities, right? That is who gets demoted or reorganized and what have? (Haven't checked all these blogs and boards and all lately ...)
Last Words? No, ... well, not yet. Orcus was one who had somesuch and we know what happened to him while he had it.
As for Country, playing and all, I remind you about Post 98 and my remark on docs.
You play for your country, whether it's friendly or not! Otherwise, you're obviously not worthy of wearing the flag on your chest. But the docs only sent them back after Smith asked them to go easy on his players, because they had an important matches coming (READ: The Old Firm), as if playing for your country wasn't the greatest honour you can get. Not trying to take a hostile tone btw!
Jumping back on topic!
Think some of the designers mentioned that the Seldarine was to be absorbed, if not specifically which human gods got them.
Essentially, apart from that Selûne / Sehanine example, we have no clue as yet what will happen to the deities, right? That is who gets demoted or reorganized and what have? (Haven't checked all these blogs and boards and all lately ...)
-The merging of Sehanine Moonbow and Selûne isn't definite. That said, as I said before, that was the example Rich Baker used, so...Let's just say it doesn't take a genius to put two and two together. I believe he also used Talos and Gruumsh in an example.
-The only definite thing we know thus far is that Nobanion has been turned into an 'Exarch'- a 'saint'-like entity that serves a Greater Deity, and was once a deity him/her/itself.
Brian James rescinded that particular piece of lore over at CK - it appears the designers decided to "go in another direction with him", AFTER Brian got his info.
Makes you feel good that they are still making maor changes this late in the game, eh? ;)
No, we don't.
-The part that Nobanion was an exarch of Silvanus was rescinded, not the part that he is an exarch. It is likely he will become an exarch of Torm, or another LG/NG deity.
You play for your country, whether it's friendly or not! Otherwise, you're obviously not worthy of wearing the flag on your chest. But the docs only sent them back after Smith asked them to go easy on his players, because they had an important matches coming (READ: The Old Firm), as if playing for your country wasn't the greatest honour you can get. Not trying to take a hostile tone btw!
Of Course not. You just want to play with the Last Word, a perilous game indeed :evillaugh (BTW, it is not that any of those called up and were withdrawn haven't had served their country before, right?)
Of Course not. You just want to play with the Last Word, a perilous game indeed :evillaugh (BTW, it is not that any of those called up and were withdrawn haven't had served their country before, right?)
But odd that 80% of their players withdrew just before they were to play Celtic? if they were actually injured, why did all of them risk playing against Celtic a mere three days later? ;p
But what if somebody kills an elven aspect of the god? Will that kill both?
But what if somebody kills an elven aspect of the god? Will that kill both?
-Depends. There have been cases in canon where a deity's aspect has broken off, and become it's own thing. In a case where the aspect had a lot of "soverignty", I don't think it would. Otherwise, though, these aspects are simply "masks" that the deity wears. Thus, if you kill the deity wearing the "mask", the deity dies.
But odd that 80% of their players withdrew just before they were to play Celtic? if they were actually injured, why did all of them risk playing against Celtic a mere three days later? ;p
But what if somebody kills an elven aspect of the god? Will that kill both?
No need to emphasize the OF game. They would have been withdrawn by the docs even if they were heading for Gretna three days afterwards. BTW, thus Burley had the chance to field other Scottish heroes!
BTW, one would expect a rise in gods and goddesses of fate, destiny, protection et al, since all this Spellplague stuff will surely send waves of dispair throughout the Realms. The worship of e.g. Ilmater, Talona, Beshaba and Tymora should thrive, shouldn't they?
No need to emphasize the OF game. They would have been withdrawn by the docs even if they were heading for Gretna three days afterwards. BTW, thus Burley had the chance to field other Scottish heroes!
BTW, one would expect a rise in gods and goddesses of fate, destiny, protection et al, since all this Spellplague stuff will surely send waves of dispair throughout the Realms. The worship of e.g. Ilmater, Talona, Beshaba and Tymora should thrive, shouldn't they?
There's reason the emphasise on the Old Firm, as it's now probably what might win Gers the title. i doubt they would've been withdrawn if Walter hadn't piped up. But yeah, Burley got to field other Scots, which might be a good thing.
Jumping back on topic, again; you make sense, but 4th ed doesn't.
If Lolth = Shar, the Viconia arc of Baldur's Gate II just became a whole lot funnier. *Uli chortles*
Only if it's a retcon, and not simply a change (ie. a "merger").
BTW, one would expect a rise in gods and goddesses of fate, destiny, protection et al, since all this Spellplague stuff will surely send waves of dispair throughout the Realms. The worship of e.g. Ilmater, Talona, Beshaba and Tymora should thrive, shouldn't they?
-Theoretically...
Perhaps Karsus will be retconned into something... Hmmm...
-Let's hope not...Let's form a circle and join hands...
Then they try singing to it, which doesn't work to wake it up, but it does attract a local well-known bard, who decides to give them all singing lessons. After a time, other Bards are drawn to the High Forest as well, and a community of karsus-worshipping bards forms in 'New Karse'.
The best of them form a group and take the lumpy rock on tour, and 'Karse Rock' takes the continent by storm (quite literally, Umberlee hates the stuff and causes horrible weather wherever they perform).
Anyhow... I think I completly lost where I was going with that...
But it would make sense in 4e. ;)
Only if it's a retcon, and not simply a change (ie. a "merger").
Please explain this 'Viconia arc' to those of us who haven't play the V-games - It sounds interesting.
Please explain this 'Viconia arc' to those of us who haven't play the V-games - It sounds interesting.
I've give a shortened version--it's late, and it's been a long time since I've played the BG games anyway.
Viconia De'Vir, a joinable NPC from BG1 and BG2, was a drow who fled Menzoberranzan and the Underdark (apparently, she fled before House De'Vir was destroyed by House Do'Urden, before anyone asks). She turned away from Lolth and became a priestess of Shar. Throughout most of her story arc, when you know her, she is a NE cleric of Shar, although like the other joinable clerics in the game, she rarely ever actually discusses her religion or deity in any depth (this is unfortunate, IMO, but oh well).Now, if you are playing a male PC and play through her romance storyline (and I have done that), you have the chance in the ToB expansion to help Viconia change her viewpoint and become TN (true neutral). However, it isn't stated anywhere that she turns away from Shar.
I guess what this all adds up to is that the other poster thought it would have been strange and funny if Viconia turned away from Lolth to worship Shar, never knowing that they were one and the same deity all along. As I mentioned, though, Viconia's goddess plays only a bit role (if that) in her story arc (as shocking as that might sound)--her story really revolves around the fact that she is a drow making her way through the surface world. Just like Anomen Delyrn, the warrior-priest of Helm (and the romance option for females) has a story arc that revolves around his obtaining knighthood and his relationship with his father, not his religion. And Aerie (another romance option for male PCs) has a story that has mainly to do with her being an avariel who had her wings cut off, and little if anything to do with the fact that she is a priestess of Baeravan Wildwanderer.
Of course, they do a really crappy job, and he winds up looking more like a very lumpy rock. :P
-I am not lumpy.
Then they try singing to it, which doesn't work to wake it up, but it does attract a local well-known bard, who decides to give them all singing lessons. After a time, other Bards are drawn to the High Forest as well, and a community of karsus-worshipping bards forms in 'New Karse'.
The best of them form a group and take the lumpy rock on tour, and 'Karse Rock' takes the continent by storm (quite literally, Umberlee hates the stuff and causes horrible weather wherever they perform).
-Except for the lumpy part, sounds good.
Anyhow... I think I completly lost where I was going with that...
-Something about The Rolling Stones?
And Aerie (another romance option for male PCs) has a story that has mainly to do with her being an avariel who had her wings cut off, and little if anything to do with the fact that she is a priestess of Baeravan Wildwanderer.
-Hw did that happen?
Perhaps Karsus will be retconned into something... Hmmm...
if that happens ill reveal myself as the chronomancer and seet myself up as the god of time.
after all what would you do with a similucrum and a bunch of history scrolls while time travelling
like the other joinable clerics in the game, she rarely ever actually discusses her religion or deity in any depth (this is unfortunate, IMO, but oh well).
I agree. I get the impression that BioWare didn't research them a great deal beyond their alignment and portfolio.
I suppose if you have Viconia in a good-deity worshipping party, you just have to assume that she's trying to turn them all from their beliefs. Though, if I recall correctly, I think she did try to tempt Aerie to Shar's worship....
That was pretty cool. She should have had more banters like that.
Now, if you are playing a male PC and play through her romance storyline (and I have done that), you have the chance in the ToB expansion to help Viconia change her viewpoint and become TN (true neutral). However, it isn't stated anywhere that she turns away from Shar.
You are correct, though I was always curious - from a lore perspective - of how that "redemption" actually worked with her remaining a cleric of Shar. Viccy appears to be turning to promises of success there. Tut. Not to mention the fact that she's letting go of her hatred and bitterness.
It'd have been cool if the Viconia alignment shift had been preceded by her recieving visitations in her dreams from Eilistraee.... alas.
I guess what this all adds up to is that the other poster thought it would have been strange and funny if Viconia turned away from Lolth to worship Shar, never knowing that they were one and the same deity all along. As I mentioned, though, Viconia's goddess plays only a bit role (if that) in her story arc (as shocking as that might sound)--her story really revolves around the fact that she is a drow making her way through the surface world.
If I'm remembering correctly, a lot of her character is focused around on her intense fear of Lolth and her servants, and her taking great comfort in her worship of Shar. That's why I'd have found it delightfully ironic/hilarious.
At least, that's how I remember the romance playing out in SoA. Maybe I'm imagining things.
And Aerie (another romance option for male PCs) has a story that has mainly to do with her being an avariel who had her wings cut off, and little if anything to do with the fact that she is a priestess of Baeravan Wildwanderer.
Gah. Aerie. What she needed was a story arc explaining why she was a level 7/7 cleric/mage straight out of the circus. Stupid, ridiculous "gameplay balance"... *Uli grumbles*
Of course, everyone and his mother had seven or more levels in that game.
Anyhoot, my apologies for sidetracking this thread somewhat.
I'll just point out, quickly, that I'd really have no problems with Shar=Lolth at all.... or, at least, no problems with Lolth being an aspect of Shar that has gained some measure of independance.
Re: Aerie--she was caught by evil slavers who cut off her wings.
I forgot to mention the details--she spent a lot of time in a cage, and her wings got diseased. And so, her owners simply (and cruelly) cut them off, rather than healing them.
Perhaps Karsus will be retconned into something... Hmmm...
He's already been vestige-fied in the Tome of Magic. And he can stay there, good company.
Shar ... too much emphasis has been laid upon her nihilistic aspects in recent years, when darkness and secrets would have been far better an approach.
I agree. I get the impression that BioWare didn't research them a great deal beyond their alignment and portfolio.
Indeed, that's what it felt like at times.
I suppose if you have Viconia in a good-deity worshipping party, you just have to assume that she's trying to turn them all from their beliefs. Though, if I recall correctly, I think she did try to tempt Aerie to Shar's worship....
That was pretty cool. She should have had more banters like that.
Yes, and a few of the verbal fights with Keldorn (a paladin) brought her religion up, but that was about it.
Not to mention the fact that clerics of Shar are supposed to perform an act of wickedness once a week (or something like that). Hard to reconcile that with a goodly party, although she is an interesting character (and that was my favorite romance for male PCs, although to be fair I never played Jaheira's).
You are correct, though I was always curious - from a lore perspective - of how that "redemption" actually worked with her remaining a cleric of Shar. Viccy appears to be turning to promises of success there. Tut. Not to mention the fact that she's letting go of her hatred and bitterness.
It'd have been cool if the Viconia alignment shift had been preceded by her recieving visitations in her dreams from Eilistraee.... alas.
I agree--being a neutral cleric of Shar is difficult, because as I mentioned Shar wants her clerics to perform acts of evil and even human sacrifice. I would have loved it if she turned to a different deity during the game.
Gah. Aerie. What she needed was a story arc explaining why she was a level 7/7 cleric/mage straight out of the circus. Stupid, ridiculous "gameplay balance"... *Uli grumbles*
Of course, everyone and his mother had seven or more levels in that game.
And Nalia was a lvl 4 thief, lvl 9 mage all based on her sneaking out of her castle to help people (and she comes off as never having adventuring before). Ah well.
Anyhoot, my apologies for sidetracking this thread somewhat.
I'm fine with it, because it's an interesting topic for me.;)
I'd have a huge problem with it myself... Lolth has never been much of a nihlist as far as I can tell... she wants it all, now, and in hard cash. Doesn't quite reconcile with the screw everyone over and push the big flashing red button that is Shar, at least to me it doesn't.
Very true, but when it comes to the Powers, I'm willing to excuse all sorts of contradictions and inconsistances.
They're the gods. Understanding them - especially the ones that were never mortal - I feel, isn't something that should be easy.
Just my opinion, mind.
Not to mention the fact that clerics of Shar are supposed to perform an act of wickedness once a week (or something like that). Hard to reconcile that with a goodly party
I used to pretend that she would sneak off every now and again while the party was resting. ;)
although she is an interesting character (and that was my favorite romance for male PCs, although to be fair I never played Jaheira's).
The Jaheria one is really rather good, I think, though it seems to begin rather too quickly, all things considered. I justify it (I do that a lot, with this game, can you tell?) by pretending that she and Khalid were on the verge of splitting up (amicably) anyway...
I agree--being a neutral cleric of Shar is difficult, because as I mentioned Shar wants her clerics to perform acts of evil and even human sacrifice. I would have loved it if she turned to a different deity during the game.
I'm resolved to put it in myself if I ever get the time to wrap my head around modding code. At the moment, the extent of my "skills" is modding dialog and editing sound files so that there's nothing in the plot to suggest that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn.
I always hated that revelation.
And Nalia was a lvl 4 thief, lvl 9 mage all based on her sneaking out of her castle to help people (and she comes off as never having adventuring before). Ah well.
Yes... *Uli growls at the silly BioWare designers*
All the new BG2 party members should have been experienced adventurers, I think. Still, I like Nalia (especially since the de'Arnise Romance Mod was released, it's very well written) so... uh... I'll just say she's a prodigy. Or make her a sorcerer or something.
From a plot perspective, I can buy sorcerers advancing at faster rates than wizards.
I'm fine with it, because it's an interesting topic for me.;)
Well, cool, but the minute someone gets annoyed, I'll be running for the hills. *Innocent whistle*
She was taken in by a gnome in a circus who taught her about Baeravan, whose worship she took up. Were it not for the annoying personality, she'd have been one of the better NPCs in the game in terms of ability (cleric/mage). Unfortunately, that personality made my teeth hurt so I could never quite bring myself to drag her along despite her being very useful.
-Ah, a Gnome Circus...
Re: Aerie--she was caught by evil slavers who cut off her wings.
-I was talking more about her worship of Baeravan, but thank you.
He's already been vestige-fied in the Tome of Magic. And he can stay there, good company
-Only one of my aspects.
Hmm.. I'd say that, providing the inconsistancies are explained as different aspects of one deity, I'm cool with it. If Shar and Lolth are literally always one and the same being... yes, I'd have difficulty.
If, however, Lolth is an (ascendant) aspect of Shar that the latter would actually like to get rid of, all it does is make things more interesting, in my book. I'm very much a fan of the idea that gods can be in opposition to themselves.
I imagine Tempus takes it quite literally.
(Oh, come on, you think he's never just created a battlefield where the two sides are made up of his own avatars? :D )
-Ah, a Gnome Circus...
A gnome in a circus. Who eventually took it over. ;)
It was multiracial.
I'd have a huge problem with it myself...
-As would I. Just like merging Sehanine Moonbow and Selûne opens up a can of continuity worms, merging Lolth and Shar does the same.
-Only one of my aspects.
The sole other one was petrified and lies in that swamp, as we all know. Did you ever read that Arcane Age novel trilogy?
The sole other one was petrified and lies in that swamp, as we all know. Did you ever read that Arcane Age novel trilogy?
-I have three aspects, not two. I can't be Tripartite with two aspects, now can I?
I am distinctly under the impression that none of 4e is going to be dealing with individual aspects of a single deity, simply that they are names that deities go by in different cultures. I could be mistaken in that, but nothing I've read has given me another take on the matter. I hope I am mistaken in that to be honest, since its a glaring deal-breaker for me in 4e Realms.
I am distinctly under the impression that none of 4e is going to be dealing with individual aspects of a single deity, simply that they are names that deities go by in different cultures.
-Yes, this is what we've been told by Rich Baker. The example he used was that Selûne and Sehanine Moonbow were the same lunar deity, and that she was known as Selûne to Humans, and Sehanine Moonbow to Elves. If there was little written about either deity, I'd have no problem with it. But, both Selûne and Sehanine Moonbow have highly developed histories that would become messed up if applied to this theory. I believe he also used Talos and Gruumsh as an example as well.
-I have three aspects, not two. I can't be Tripartite with two aspects, now can I?
Of course. The third aspect is to be found in a ... say ... "expert 6" with maxed Knowledge skills and a Profession (Scribe) that hangs about the WizBoards as long as his eyes are open.
Of course. The third aspect is to be found in a ... say ... "expert 6" with maxed Knowledge skills and a Profession (Scribe) that hangs about the WizBoards as long as his eyes are open.
-Well, Karsus' three aspects are the Karsestone, his Sentience trapped within his petrified astral corpse , and the Golem in Karse. As I've been labeled 'Superrock' by I forgot whom, I guess I am that sentience/astral corpse.
-I'm also not here as often as it seems. I'm usually on early in the morning, around the afternoon, and late at night. Lots of times, though, I just leave the opened Internet Explorer minimized in the corner when I am doing other things.
-Oh, and since Dan isn't around anymore, I feel I need to pull double duty.
The Jaheria one is really rather good, I think, though it seems to begin rather too quickly, all things considered. I justify it (I do that a lot, with this game, can you tell?) by pretending that she and Khalid were on the verge of splitting up (amicably) anyway...
I avoided the Jaheira romance mainly because it was known to be buggy, and even with numerous patches I was always afraid something would just not work right. That, and I wasn't too keen on the idea of romancing Jaheira anyway (though I do like her as a character).
I'm resolved to put it in myself if I ever get the time to wrap my head around modding code. At the moment, the extent of my "skills" is modding dialog and editing sound files so that there's nothing in the plot to suggest that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn.
I always hated that revelation.
Same here!
Yes... *Uli growls at the silly BioWare designers*
All the new BG2 party members should have been experienced adventurers, I think. Still, I like Nalia (especially since the de'Arnise Romance Mod was released, it's very well written) so... uh... I'll just say she's a prodigy. Or make her a sorcerer or something.
Is that the one by Jason Compton (I think that was his name)? If so, I'd love to try it, if I happen to hook up the BG games again (haven't played them in a while, now).
--I was talking more about her worship of Baeravan, but thank you.
You're welcome.
As Stigger said, she learned about Baeravan and the other gnome deities from the gnome who adopted her (and said gnome was a mage/cleric of Baraver Cloakshadow(sp?) in BG1--and he had a much different personality to boot!). That said, Aerie did still worship Aerdrie Faeyna (sp?).Is that the one by Jason Compton (I think that was his name)?
Yup. It was in the works/on hiatus for a long time, but it's on version 2 now.
Jaheira's romance required a couple of console commands to get to work properly, even fully patched, at least as I recall it. Don't remember if that Jaheira romance fix that got posted ever worked properly for me or not though.
Yeah, the BG mod community has released a whole bunch of their own patches over the years, however, and there's pretty much nothing that goes wrong with BG2 vanilla anymore. ;)
(Every fix can be found in the G3 BGII Fixpack, if you're interested)
Re: Lolth and Sehanine = sisters?! Wtf? ---> Heresy.
Never fear, if it goes down really badly it'll probably be retconned into hearsay.
Ba dum dum tsch. :D
Sorry.
Re: Lolth and Sehanine = sisters?! Wtf? ---> Heresy.
-Probably not. It's plausible right now, without changing/altering anything.
I kinda already figured they have been for a while... same with most of the Seldarine actually...
-Yes, as was already mentioned in this thread (I think), the Seldarine is 'The Fellowship of Brothers and Sisters of the Wood’.
I kinda already figured they have been for a while... same with most of the Seldarine actually... though I try to ignore the incest implication and consider it more of a spiritual siblinghood rather than the physical.
Truthfully, the "incest" thing doesn't remotely bother me. It's a mortal taboo. Gods have been at it with their close family since time began, practically.
Now, maybe it's not usually emphasised much in D&D... but, hey, I never thought Hera wasn't Zeus' sister.
Yup. It was in the works/on hiatus for a long time, but it's on version 2 now.
Thanks for the info.
Truthfully, the "incest" thing doesn't remotely bother me. It's a mortal taboo. Gods have been at it with their close family since time began, practically.
It doesn't bother me that much where gods are concerned, either, but still, "brothers and sisters of the wood" need not be taken literally.
That is so not true in some cases... Sune, Sharess, Lliira, Hanali, etc...
-They are just globs of deific energy/spiritstuff/incarnum with boobs, then. ;) :P
More into hips and derriers myself... and legs... lots of legs...
-I hear you. I hear you...
More into hips and derriers myself... and legs... lots of legs...
QFT
-Yes, as was already mentioned in this thread (I think), the Seldarine is 'The Fellowship of Brothers and Sisters of the Wood’.
But it means only the metaphorical family, not real!
But it means only the metaphorical family, not real!
-No, not necessarily.
But it means only the metaphorical family, not real!
I always took it as literal, just as the Olympian gods were all family, and brothers (Zeus) married sisters (Hera) without any sort of modern incest-taboo stuff applying.
I'm not sure whether Corellon is meant to be seen as older sibling, or actual parent figure to the gods, or, with his androgynous nature, perhaps even *sole* parent to some of the gods. But I definitely thought that they were all supposed to be related and not just a clique of like-minded dieties.
-Probably not. It's plausible right now, without changing/altering anything.
And the FR are supposed to be moved closer to the DnD-Core.
From James Wyatt's 'A Fractured Family'-DnD-Core-Article:
"Sehanine, god of the full moon, was fair-skinned and dark-haired, while Lolth, god of the new moon, was the opposite."
Considering, that in the FR Lloth is currently batteling Eilistraee, who happens to be a (now shadowy) moongoddess, you now can probably guess who will win and take up the others portfolio in 4ed FR.
You might see it as a reclaiming of an aspect (the good and 'moony' part) of Lloth's old self in the FR.
So Sehaine and Lloth could be Sisters (of the Moon) and taking this they might also be the goddesses the humans later called Selune and Shar (making them the human aspects of the elven goddesses).
Aw crap...I liked the diversity of the 3ed FR Pantheons (and much of the other stuff that goes to hell/Abeir in FR 4ed as well)...FR4ed is an Aberration... or is it 'Abeirration' now?
And the FR are supposed to be moved closer to the DnD-Core.
From James Wyatt's 'A Fractured Family'-DnD-Core-Article:
"Sehanine, god of the full moon, was fair-skinned and dark-haired, while Lolth, god of the new moon, was the opposite."
Considering, that in the FR Lloth is currently batteling Eilistraee, who happens to be a (now shadowy) moongoddess, you now can probably guess who will win and take up the others portfolio in 4ed FR.
You might see it as a reclaiming of an aspect (the good and 'moony' part) of Lloth's old self in the FR.
So Sehaine and Lloth could be Sisters (of the Moon) and taking this they might also be the goddesses the humans later called Selune and Shar (making them the human aspects of the elven goddesses).
Aw crap...I liked the diversity of the 3ed FR Pantheons (and much of the other stuff that goes to hell/Abeir in FR 4ed as well)...FR4ed is an Aberration... or is it 'Abeirration' now?
Matter of fact, while I was quite stunned by WotC slaughter of the drow deities (for no obvious reason than the oldest cliché), ever since the news of 4E and the New Realms filtered through, I lost a fair amount of interest of what they will do to the Realms and its deities. Never saying never, but everything I have read, heard or seen on the New FR so far planted a firm belief that I have enough FR game and rule material to stay well clear of the 4E Realms.
As for the topic ... it very much looks as if they define and redefine gods to suit their new setting. The novels, while neatly written, cover this whole affair up and add some gloss on it. Everyone who had spend a few hours reading in the Faiths & Avatars series will nonetheless feel quite bemused. They will make the new FR setting suit the new needs and e.g. if Lolth sells better in a comic with lavender eyes, she will get them.
So Sehaine and Lloth could be Sisters (of the Moon) and taking this they might also be the goddesses the humans later called Selune and Shar (making them the human aspects of the elven goddesses).
-Of course, this would make/break either the Elven creation myth, or the Realmspace creation myth, both which are generally recieved as fact, rather than myth, especially as Ed Greenwood has said he endorses the latter.
Aw crap...I liked the diversity of the 3ed FR Pantheons (and much of the other stuff that goes to hell/Abeir in FR 4ed as well)...FR4ed is an Aberration... or is it 'Abeirration' now?
"Abeirration."
its just different races with the same story all races have Deitys that do the same things is out of line to beleive that its the same deity just posing as an Avatar that is the same in racial Charitaristics(spelled way wrong) as to garner a following
-Most races have widely different creation myths, while others don't have any at all.
-And, on the topic of avatars...Ao mandated in the Time of Troubles that each deity is to have ONE avatar. If, say, Mask and Erevan Illesere are one in the same (I am just making that up right now, based on the fact that they are both roguish), why did Mask have his own avatar, and Erevan his own seperate avatar? Indeed...
...Ao mandated in the Time of Troubles that each deity is to have ONE avatar. If, say, Mask and Erevan Illesere are one in the same (I am just making that up right now, based on the fact that they are both roguish), why did Mask have his own avatar, and Erevan his own seperate avatar? Indeed...
Sadly Ao's mandates doesn't seem to bother WotC.
Like the one that Ao has the last say about who gets to be god of something...not this Highlander-like 'Kill off-get Portfolio'-thing that is now quite common.
Like the one that Ao has the last say about who gets to be god of something...not this Highlander-like 'Kill off-get Portfolio'-thing that is now quite common.
-Well, one can assume that Ao approves of them all in the background.
AO is not liked by wotc
-Yes, Rich Baker has stated that Ao's role in 4e Forgotten Realms will be minimized to the extent that it is as if he no longer exists.
-Yes, Rich Baker has stated that Ao's role in 4e Forgotten Realms will be minimized to the extent that it is as if he no longer exists.
Another one bites the dust! Why don't they simply start anew all together instead of r(e)aping the Realms?
Another one bites the dust! Why don't they simply start anew all together instead of r(e)aping the Realms?
-While I don't have the exact statistics, I don't think it's too extreme to go out on the limb and say that nearly all of those who are dissatisfied about the 4e Forgotten Realms because the drastic changes that are being made to the setting feel the same way.
Another one bites the dust! Why don't they simply start anew all together instead of r(e)aping the Realms?
Well, AO isn't actually dead...
As for your question, though, I'm inclined to agree.
Most of it actually does make sense if you look at it from the perspective that all of the setting books crunch is supposed to be slottable into any other setting... FR's history made that extremely difficult to pull off, so this move does make sense in that respect. Doesn't mean I like it, but I do understand it.
-Indeed. And, what kind of way is that to look at things? Should events in American history make sense when hand picked and dropped into Peruvian history? A few, interconnected events and policies, sure, but, overall? Of course not!
Should have caught that... that's what I get for saying something before I'm fully awake.
-That's okay. I figured your luminescence wasn't fully shining, or something.
As to their motives... my wife ascribes motives along the lines of 'proving their masculinity' to it, while I tend to go more with implementation of ideas before fully thinking them through. A feedback loop sort of thing... which that whole 'high-five' (from Mr. Mearls I think it was) thing in that preview book I just utterly blanked on the name of sort of said to me.
-I'm not familiar with that. Though I am sure it will aggrivate me, please, inform me.
-Huh...Well, if only we all were so enthusiastic about our jobs...
they wanted to find someone to 'high-five' with after coming up with something 'cool' to stick in 4e.
I'm sure a lot of 'high-fiving' went on in the Enron offices whenever they had another 'brilliant' financial idea, too.
I'm sure a lot of 'high-fiving' went on in the Enron offices whenever they had another 'brilliant' financial idea, too.
-Hey, sadly, in the end, those suits did get the last laugh. Ken Lay, the CEO, was the only one who went to trial for white-collar crimes, but do you think that he was the only one who benefitted?