or how about driz'zt do'urden???
lolth smoth
the four ways to obtain power in a drow society are as follows:
the clergy : lolths favored beeches
the arcanists: nothing says die maggot like a well placed fireball.
yer still kissing the priestesses bum though
warrior dudes: martial prowess, hack and slash your way into the priestess's bed chambers and if your not careful dead on a slab too.....
Merchant clans: house smouse, let me tell you loyalty is good and all, but for 500 gp, and two of your slaves there, and I can smuggle you out of the city while your house falls out of favor with lolth.
yeah, and 5 miles down the road I'll free your slaves and kill you there
its spell both ways there.
pull the legs off a spider
Besides there are enough Drizzt fans out there another thread will pop up within 2 weeks or so. ;)I only put this thread here as it seemed the other thread went from "Demons of the Realms "to "Lolth of the Realms". So I followed LK's example(I.e The Earthmother)
It's a shame that "x vs y" debates are frowned upon here because I would really like to see a poll on which character is hated more Shar or Drizzt. :P
Besides there are enough Drizzt fans out there another thread will pop up within 2 weeks or so. ;)
Sweet Lady Shar I hope not.
See what you have done, you made me have hope. 
:P
Now, there's a header without a topic description, then people start talking about Drizzt and Shar.
Sorry Zanan. Changed the title to what I meant this thread to be about ;)
Look it up. I, unlike you, am not misinterpreting the book I quoted. Corellon, Lolth, etc, from FR is the same as from GH. They are not built the same, they do not have the same levels of power, but it is the same being.
-The Corellon Larethian in the Forgotten Realms is not the Corellon Larethian in Greyhawk, who is not the Corellon Larethian from Dragonlance. I could of sworn explaining this to someone (possibly you) like a week or two ago. In the past, you would have been correct, being as that Corellon Larethian is a multiplanar deity (as is Lolth), and can be found worshiping in multiple Crystal Spheres across the planes. In the past, this was the case, when the various D&D settings shared the same cosmology. When 3e came around, things changed, and each setting became self-contained, while still including various other locates, to leave open the possibility for cross-overs. Thus, we got a Forgotten Realms setting that contained the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance, and Greyhawk setting that contained the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance, and a Dragonlance setting that contained the Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance. That'd give us different Forgotten Realms': Forgotten RealmsForgotten Realms, Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk, Forgotten RealmsDragonlance, and so on. In turn, Corellon LarethianForgotten Realms is not Corellon LarethianGreyhawk is not Corellon LarethianDragonlance, and so on. A' isn't A''. Though they reflect the same spot on a graph, they are two separate points.
...
Then I suggest you (LK) read the sidebar on pg 41, Faiths and Pantheons as well. Because this FR source book proves you wrong.
Here is a bit of it;
Though her history differs between the two settings, she remains very much the same deity.
It talks about Lolth specifically, but mentions that this applies to all deities that are multi-spheric.
How much clearer does it have to be?
Then I suggest you (LK) read the sidebar on pg 41, Faiths and Pantheons as well. Because this FR source book proves you wrong.
Here is a bit of it;
It talks about Lolth specifically, but mentions that this applies to all deities that are multi-spheric.
How much clearer does it have to be?
-That gives us Lolth from the Forgotten RealmsForgotten Realms and Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk, not Lolth from the Forgotten RealmsForgotten Realms and GreyhawkGreyhawk. Greyspace exists in the Forgotten Realms, but it is an entity separate from Greyspace from the actual Greyhawk setting. It is Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk, not GreyhawkGreyhawk. The original (GreyhawkGreyhawk) is A, and the Forgotten Realms' version (Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk is A'. When 3e inherently changed the cosmology of the D&D settings out there, this is what happened, because there's plenty of precidence of cross-over and cross-contamination that it'd be impossible to completely and literally shut out and ignore other settings. The plotline of Tymora's Luck would then become impossible, because Kender cannot exist in the Forgotten Realms, because Krynn wouldn't be there. Thus, the Forgotten Realms setting has a Krynn that exists. This Krynn follows the same events, and is like the original Krynn, from the Dragonlance setting. The Krynn in the Forgotten Realms isn't the Krynn from Dragonlance, however. It's a necessity that exists to ensure that continuity is maintained when cross-overs happen(ed).
-The Corellon Larethian in the Forgotten Realms is not the Corellon Larethian in Greyhawk, who is not the Corellon Larethian from Dragonlance.
To begin with, there is not Corellon in Dragonlance. :P
To begin with, there is not Corellon in Dragonlance. :P
-I don't know hardly anything about Dragonlance, so I did not know that. Substitute Dragonlance for any other setting, then, where Corellon Larethian exists.
-That gives us Lolth from the Forgotten RealmsForgotten Realms and Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk, not Lolth from the Forgotten RealmsForgotten Realms and GreyhawkGreyhawk. Greyspace exists in the Forgotten Realms, but it is an entity separate from Greyspace from the actual Greyhawk setting. It is Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk, not GreyhawkGreyhawk. The original (GreyhawkGreyhawk) is A, and the Forgotten Realms' version (Forgotten RealmsGreyhawk is A'. When 3e inherently changed the cosmology of the D&D settings out there, this is what happened, because there's plenty of precidence of cross-over and cross-contamination that it'd be impossible to completely and literally shut out and ignore other settings. The plotline of Tymora's Luck would then become impossible, because Kender cannot exist in the Forgotten Realms, because Krynn wouldn't be there. Thus, the Forgotten Realms setting has a Krynn that exists. This Krynn follows the same events, and is like the original Krynn, from the Dragonlance setting. The Krynn in the Forgotten Realms isn't the Krynn from Dragonlance, however. It's a necessity that exists to ensure that continuity is maintained when cross-overs happen(ed).
Where is the source for this?
Which I largely ignore as it does absolutely nothing...
I do use the World Tree cosmology though. I just plant it firmly within the multiverse soaking radiance from other crystal spheres drifting in the astral plane.
oh wait, its Kira-jirith or something now isnt it.
So, what's this debate about?
This debate was supposed to be a continuation about whether Lolth/Lloth can be classified a demon or not. A continuation of the debate from "Demons of the Realms" thread.
This is the Last time I think of a title when I'm tired ;)
If anyone can change it feel free to or better yet, LK Can you maybe combine this thread with "Araunshee(spell) origins or even delete this thread because it seems it may be a duplicate. No reason to have 2 threads discussing the same thing . ;)
Where is the source for this?
It's an assumption, based on the idea that all previous canon still holds unless contradicted. 2nd edition portrayed Oerth and Toril as existing on the same plane, but in different crystal spheres separated by phlogiston currents. 3rd edition instead portrayed them as different cosmologies separated by the Plane of Shadow. However, there's still a host of Spelljammer canon that still presumedly holds, meaning that Toril is still part of a triad of crystal spheres including Greyspace and Krynnspace. If Toril and Oerth are in separate cosmologies, then each cosmology must have its own triad with the other crystal spheres in it. So Greyspace, which is part of the Great Wheel cosmology, must have in the same cosmology a version of Realmspace and Krynnspace that are also part of the Great Wheel.
This isn't the only possible interpretation, of course. Maybe there is only one Greyspace and one Realmspace, but each sphere has its own cosmology. This wouldn't preclude them still being connected by Spelljammer's Phlogiston as well as the Plane of Shadow. I think this is Gray Richardson's position, and Big Mac's over on the Spelljammer forums.
Or maybe the alternate cosmologies model of 3e is meant to replace the Spelljammer model entirely, and the current position is that all the Spelljammer sourcebooks and novels are wrong and Krynn, Oerth, and Toril aren't in adjacent crystal spheres at all. That was Kuje's position, as I recall, years ago when I got in an argument with him on these forums.
Personally, I think if the Spelljammer continuity is important in someone's personal game, obviously it still holds, and I think most games only need one version of Oerth, Toril, the Abyss, the Nine Hells, Tiamat, Kiaransalee, or Lolth. I think it's senseless to have a million versions of everything just to try to account for every cosmological model the game has produced over the years.
Corellon is only worshiped on Oerth and Toril, as far as official settings go. He also appears in the 4e core World, but that's not really a setting as such (arguably), and he's revered by the Elven Armada in Spelljammer, and by (obviously) the inhabitants of Arvandor in Planescape, but as far as worlds go, I think Oerth and Toril are it. The elves of the Birthright and Dark Sun settings are godless, the elves of Krynn worship gods like Paladine and Branchala, the elves of Mystara have their own gods like Ordana and Eiryndul, and the elves of Eberron are ancestor worshipers or scorpion worshipers and other weird things. The Ravenloft elves are mostly associated with Soth's domain (there are exceptions, especially in Darkon). As the two "vanilla" D&D settings that served as the "default world" at various times, Oerth and Toril share a lot that other settings don't. Oerth and Toril were compelled to match up with default assumptions in many cases (Toril less so than Oerth, since it has its own history that was separate from standard D&D at various times), while the other worlds were invented with the idea that they'd be substantially different.
So...maybe the Spellplague never happened in some of those other Crystal Spheres? :D
Very possible! The only requirement in the Great Wheel or Dragonlance cosmologies is that they fit with Spelljammer continuity.
Another interpretation is that Spelljammer is its own cosmology, and it's the only version of the Material Plane that includes all three spheres in the same Phlogiston. The other cosmologies don't need them to stay consistent with their own continuity. I don't completely buy this, because there are Realms sourcebooks and Greyhawk sourcebooks that refer to Spelljammer as well as the other way around, implicitly uniting them, but it's possible to separate the two, accepting the parts referenced in the campaign settings themselves without accepting every part of every setting in the other one.
In that case, the Spellplague might not have happened in the Spelljammer universe.
Yet another source that proves my point. 4e MotP, pg 19 sidebar...
As with the other thread and F&P, you are using quotes from old books who have since been updated or rectified. Mind you, Races of Faerûn, due to space-requirements "rewrote" parts of the wild and dark elven history when being "edited". That was latter returned to the correct order in e.g. Lost Empires of Faerûn. MotP and F&P are not the books you can solely rely on when it comes to this any longer.
As with the other thread and F&P, you are using quotes from old books
Um, on what plane are you from that the Fourth Edition Manual of the Planes is considered "old" :P
Edit: I don't see how this supports his point though, other than stating the different cosmologies (even in 4E) are still linked. But that this link is up to the DM and doesn't suggest that the same Gods shared in different cosmologies are actually consistent between them.
To begin with, there is not Corellon in Dragonlance. :P
And no Tiamat, only someone sometimes looking like the small five-headed worm of the Realms. :P
Um, on what plane are you from that the Fourth Edition Manual of the Planes is considered "old"
Edit: I don't see how this supports his point though, other than stating the different cosmologies (even in 4E) are still linked. But that this link is up to the DM and doesn't suggest that the same Gods shared in different cosmologies are actually consistent between them.
Maybe that's what Zanan was about, or she quoted the wrong part.
But one thing should be remembered. As you said in the MotP is not said that all worlds share the same rules or beings. In 3ed it was established that the Realmsians had their own kind of cosmology with their own rules and that's it. Nothing so far seems to contradict it. When I am correct, there is even more in core rules now indicating the differencies. I heard there is still a Sehanine Moonbow walking around, whereas we were told that in the realms cosmology Sehanine is now known as Selûne and there never had been a real Sehanine, only Selûne telling lies to elfen worshippers and similiar (ridiculous) changes.
Maybe there is only one Greyspace and one Realmspace, but each sphere has its own cosmology.
Yep, my vote goes to this one.
Although not all spheres need a different cosmology. Aside from official setting worlds, imo only spheres where there's an overdeity got their own unique cosmology. Well, and all others share the core cosmology.
Maybe there is only one Greyspace and one Realmspace, but each sphere has its own cosmology. This wouldn't preclude them still being connected by Spelljammer's Phlogiston as well as the Plane of Shadow.
If it helps, Phlogiston still exists in 4e--with respect to the Realms, at least. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (4e) p. 41 states: "In the beginning existed a misty realm of timeless nothingness, crafted by Ao the Hidden One from the raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston." This would seem to affirm that Phlogiston still exists, and that Realmspace was crafted out of it.
My working theory is that Phlogiston is an aspect/manifestation of the plane of Shadow in some manner. I believe that Phlogiston is how the Plane of Shadow appears outside the boundaries of a Crystal Sphere, whereas the Shadowfell is the manifestation of the Shadow Plane within the boundaries of the Crystal Sphere (or coterminous with it).
I figure that if the material plane ends at the boundaries of the Crystal Sphere, but Shadow permeates everywhere, then when you leave the Crystal Sphere, you have run out of Material Plane and Shadow is what is left.
Now, I am a little undecided about the "gas" called Phlogiston itself. Arguably, the Phlogiston gas may not be Shadow stuff at all, it may just be a substance that permeates the physical space (or metaphysical space) that is Shadow. Perhaps the Phlogiston Gas itself, which is described in the FRCG as "raw elemental bedlam" might be the substance out of which an Elemental Chaos forms (or congeals or accretes) in the vicinity of Crystal Spheres.
Now some might object to the idea that the material plane ends at the boundaries of a Crystal Sphere. Some may prefer the idea that all Crystal Spheres inhabit the same material plane. To that I suggest that it may be possible for Greyhawk and Realmspace to inhabit the same Material Plane if you view the Material Plane as manifesting in discrete quanta, existing within the boundaries of Crystal Spheres but not without. Like spots on the same leopard. Distinct, discrete spots, but same leopard.
At that point, though, philosophers could argue whether Crystal Spheres represent separate and distinct, parallel material planes or are localized manifestations of the same material plane. But that argument may be more semantic than metaphysical in nature.
I will say that Ed Greenwood has stated somewhat definitively his take on the D&D metaverse, which is what I base my theories on. To the extent that his word is FR canon (by contract with WotC) unless overwritten by published Realmslore, and to whatever extent one feels that his view is determinative of the matter, here is Ed's post from Candlekeep:
January 27, 2005: Hello, all. Ed makes reply to kuje31 in the matter of Limbo:
kuje, Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerûn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer).
Real-world Earth (where I live, and Elminster finds me to pass on his tales of this wondrous world we all buy divers products about) is but one of these dozens of Prime Material Planes that Toril is, or has been (and in some cases, will be again, as gates re-open in predetermined cycles or conditions, or are re-opened by the deliberate acts of various beings) directly linked to. (Lest anyone think I’m just concocting this now as a retcon, consider the date on which issue 37 of The Dragon, as it was then, was published.)
The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though it’s very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, I’ll very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect).
Most of these Prime Material Planes (from which various of the “creator races” hail) are similar to Toril in that they are vaguely-medieval-level carbon-based and copious-water environments very like Toril, and one can breathe the air and drink the water if one is a resident of one plane, and steps (via gate/portal or spell) from one to the other. Most of them exist both within their own crystal spheres (Spelljammer again, although in the majority of cases the inhabitants of these alternate Prime Material Planes are entirely unaware of the existence of crystal spheres, spelljammers, phlogiston, et al) and in the cosmology described in the ‘core’ D&D rules, where Limbo very much exists.
So as SERPENT KINGDOMS states, some learned thinkers of Toril believe the batrachi fled to Limbo, where they became known as slaadi.
(I know they exist in Limbo, because circa issue 90 or so of DRAGON, a Canadian freelance designer by the name of Stephen Inniss [creator of the lillend “monster”] and I stopped work on a by-then-300-odd-pages manuscript detailing Limbo, when TSR’s Creative Director told us they wouldn’t be publishing any more planar products. As we all know, TSR later changed its mind.)
Not only are the cosmologies connected via the various gates linking the Prime Material Planes, they’re also linked (Elminster tells me, though word of this may well not have reached those wizards who dwell on a certain coast) through their World Trees and River of Blood/River Styx (which are actually the same thing, exhibiting different properties in different places and cosmologies. I note both “places” and cosmologies because the Styx differs from place to place just within the Outer Planes of the “main D&D” or “Greyhawk” cosmology, bearing alternative names such as the River Lethe.)
Obviously, the slaadi colonized the Supreme Throne from Limbo (where, after all, the githzerai are an everpresent force that opposes them). Cyric is only very recently ascended to godhood (from a cosmic viewpoint), so it’s obvious that the Supreme Throne described in the PLAYER’S GUIDE TO FAERUN is greatly changed from the features a visitor would have found on that plane not very long ago - - when the slaadi probably dominated, hunting other creatures at will.
However, let me state again (for the benefit of all Seekers After Truths with whom you’ll undoubtedly be sharing this) that as with matters divine, matters cosmological are rife with speculation and things most mortals can never know or be sure about. What is “fact” when even a careful observer can’t necessarily perceive things as they are, or know he or she is interpreting what they see correctly? (I recall a humorous animated film, popular in schools in my youth, wherein aliens believe that cars are the rulers of Earth, and humans are merely parasites who occasionally issue forth from them or enter them.) So there you have it: clear as mud in utter darkness when one is submerged in it and blindfolded. :}
So saith Ed.
Yep, my vote goes to this one.
Although not all spheres need a different cosmology. Aside from official setting worlds, imo only spheres where there's an over deity got their own unique cosmology. Well, and all others share the core cosmology.
Exactly my point. They can have only one RS, one GS, etc... each with their own cosmology or with similar ones.
The 4e MotP sidebar agrees with this.
I was trying to point that out, but it seems some people are unwilling to admit they may be wrong.
Here's the summary of my thoughts on this, all supported by 3e-4e information.
Everything > Spheres (which may or may not have there own overpower [Ao like being] which acts as the barren in a kingdom maybe? More like the end all be all of a sphere).
Non-over powers have to get permission to have influence in a sphere (unless there is no over power), after which they send a portion of their being (hence why they very in power from sphere to sphere, as the over power dictates how much and who may enter) that acts independent of the whole. This would also explain why histories, stats, etc differ, without resorting to magically having different powers in different areas that look, act and are named the same.
The Shadowfell and Feywild are planes that 'hug' the mortal worlds, they don't reach beyond (normally, there are always exceptions to the rules). That said, they have... doorways, connections(?) to their other spheres sister planes, that can be used to, in effect, end up on a different mortal world.
Speaking of mortals and worlds; one thing people here seem to forget, is that the 'different cosmologies' as we know them is from a mortal perspective. It is common knowledge that perception in this form can lead to different views of the same thing. Where one sees a tree, another may see a wheel, another the rule of three, etc.
My theory; cosmologies differ based on the over powers choosing. Deities can and do exist in more then one sphere, but the power of each is limited to the sphere they're in (unless a faithful of them travels to another world, in which case they become aware of it and can go there as well [either with permission, in case of there being an over power, or by discovery). Regardless, they would send a portion of themselves as normal.
Over powers are consolidated forms of divine power. They do not split, have influence only over there sphere, but they are far beyond the power of all others in their sphere.
Lastly (because I lost my train of thought) each sphere's mortals learn their own ways of transversing the planes. Torils (in 3e) learned ways to climb the tree, so to speak. Oerths learned of the Great Wheel. Each had their own unique understanding of the same thing, thus making it difficult to transverse to other spheres this way. Spelljamming works differently, as they actually travel the Sea of Night, they can move through the spheres in this way.
On another note, this is also supported by the fact that Demon & Devil Lords are known in all spheres.
...Yeah, I lost my train of thought... but, suffice to say, this is supported by the books, does not assume anything and, in general, makes far more sense then the FRFR vs FRGH vs FRDL nonsense.
EDIT: One more thing. In the 4e MotP, it states each sphere has it's own set of sigil sequences, which they use to travel the world and beyond. Once again supporting my point on this subject.
Ultimately it's a case of either you have to handwave away the discontinuity between many sources, or pick a version of the canon that fits your campaign and ignore some of the subsequent material that piecemeal rewrites portions of it.
Realms continuity has become muddied at this point, but its planar continuity is even worse. Do what works best for your uses.
Personally, I prefer the multiple (infinite actually) versions of reality theory, where they're all true, and all false. That leaves room for everything to be correct somewhere, and so can take the burden of 'canon' off of people. ;)
So, I take it you enjoy the Infinite Crisis stuff from DC?
...
This is absolutely true (except the part about not having a winner*.
Now, the big question is; what is easier to use?
Is it 15 different FR's depending on what sphere is where or is it one of each and all things relatively fitting?
I think we can agree on which is easier to use.
*Since this is a discussion, not a debate, there is nothing to win... I bet you thought I was going to say I won, huh?
Show
;)
Um, on what plane are you from that the Fourth Edition Manual of the Planes is considered "old" :P
Edit: I don't see how this supports his point though, other than stating the different cosmologies (even in 4E) are still linked. But that this link is up to the DM and doesn't suggest that the same Gods shared in different cosmologies are actually consistent between them.
Point taken. Probably written by the same folk who messed up the bit about Lolth and Kiaransalee in the FRCG, I'd assume. No ... that would be naughty to assume, so I don't.
So, I take it you enjoy the Infinite Crisis stuff from DC?
Nope, hated them because of the whole underlying notion that there was only supposed to be one "correct" version of reality. That and I can't stand the whole Green Lantern Corps and their Guardian (or whatever they're called) bosses and how their seemingly responsible for everything in some way shape or form... that bugs me. Not really that fond of Marvel either, though their What If? series I used to enjoy from time to time when I still lived relatively near a comic book shop that wasn't a pain to get to.
A' isn't A''.
So, what's this debate about?
The weather.
Now, the big question is; what is easier to use?
Is it 15 different FR's depending on what sphere is where or is it one of each and all things relatively fitting?
I think we can agree on which is easier to use.
-That something be easier to use, or theorize has no impact on the truth of the matter, and whether or not the hypothesis is correct or not. Instead of..."blowing my mind" and gazing at the vastness of the cosmos, I can hypothesize that nothing exists in the universe, except for what I can physically see, on Earth. That doesn't change the fact that, regardless that believing that only what I see is easier, it's still not correct, as other stuff does exist, presuming one accepts that the cosmos exists as an actual thing, rather than a figment of the imagination.
-What does that even mean? I always think the Fonz, but...
I used it because you trolled a group there. Ask Bob the Angry Flower for more info.
:PPoint taken. Probably written by the same folk who messed up the bit about Lolth and Kiaransalee in the FRCG, I'd assume. No ... that would be naughty to assume, so I don't.
The 4E MotP has different writers to the 4E FRCG.
The 4E MotP is also one of the best 4E books that has been released, despite being all "core" cosmology I've actually adopted much of it as straight canon in my own games. It's pretty well thought out and combined with Sigil being entirely detailed in the DMG 2 soon, will make my games as they move to their planar escapades phase much easier to run.
Just as planned!
-This isn't over...
Exactly my point. They can have only one RS, one GS, etc... each with their own cosmology or with similar ones.
Well, no. We know for sure that there's more than one version of Greyspace, for example (the standard one and the parallel-universe version mentioned in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk).
There could be infinite parallel-universe Realmspaces for all we know, and the 4th edition Manual of the Planes doesn't contradict this possibility.
Edit: One of each is certainly easier to use, but I like the idea of the occasional adventures involving bizarro versions of the familiar worlds. Adventure isn't supposed to be easy, after all. An adventure or campaign involving an alternate Realms where the Spellplague never happened and the cosmology is different sounds like a fine idea to me. Or how about one where the Imaskari Empire never fell, or where the Tearfall never happened? All sorts of interesting possibilities that I wouldn't want to preclude.
The 4E MotP has different writers to the 4E FRCG.
The 4E MotP is also one of the best 4E books that has been released, despite being all "core" cosmology I've actually adopted much of it as straight canon in my own games. It's pretty well thought out and combined with Sigil being entirely detailed in the DMG 2 soon, will make my games as they move to their planar escapades phase much easier to run.
Well, there is not much of a contest, is there? I would expect that they drew much of the lore from previous sourcebooks (and thus not exactly needed to create much more new lore) and the rules bits are not as extensive, if there are any. Which gives you the clue that I haven't seen the book so far ... and I am not exactly willing to by a Core 4E book just to check this or that odd new tidbit of info. If at all, I'll go for books updating FR lore.
-This isn't over...
Well, there is not much of a contest, is there? I would expect that they drew much of the lore from previous sourcebooks (and thus not exactly needed to create much more new lore) and the rules bits are not as extensive, if there are any.
Which flies in the face of reason, as most things have been changed and/or reworked to fit their new ideas.
Then you add;
Which gives you the clue that I haven't seen the book so far ... and I am not exactly willing to by a Core 4E book just to check this or that odd new tidbit of info. If at all, I'll go for books updating FR lore.
Now, if I didn't know better, I'd say this was an biased assumption of something you know next to nothing about.
4e MotP is a great book, with the added bonus of being (almost) completely in tune with FR now.
**Also, because I just remembered and wanted to share and have your thoughts, I thought I'd mention that updated/new lore trumps old/outdated.**
You said e.g. that every mortal in their own plane sees and learn things differently. GH think of the Multiverse as a "great wheel", Toril since 3ed as a World Tree, others something else and you want us to accept that this is only a thing of seeing the whole through different eyes. The problem is, Great Wheel and World Tree aren't compatible and that's all this is about. There exist two, maybe three, incomatible versions of a Multiverse for the settings and that's it. There is the Planescape with their own, and that would be where the MoTP is set, there is GH and there is FR (Krynn is no longer supported, but they even have another understanding. There are no World Tree or Great Wheeles, there is only Krynn, the Hell ruled by Thakisis, the Worlds of Gilgeam, Paladine and where the souls of the mortals end by their krynnian gods and thats it). Different settings, different rules, different Gods. Maybe they share some aspects or names, but that's it. If anything in core products contradict things in the FR setting, than the core product is wrong in that particular feature. Even if this core product is the newer one. It is not FR specific and that are the sources which are important for playing FR. Nothing else. The other things can be used, but parts of them may be bended to fit, parts better left out.
Wow, you really jump on the assumption train here, don't you?
Yes and No ... I have seen all Core Rule books of 4E, as well as the FRCG. I actually own the FRPG, thus know what there is to know about 4E FR - DDI material apart. And the knowledge therein - which is my statement of above - about the planes and the FR deities (not the rules nor the stats) come to a large extend from previous material. Maybe they have changed the core D&D lore regarding the planes in MotP (hence my "yes", since this is an assumption, based on 15 years of D&D-reading experience), but that does not bother me in the slightest, nor will entice me to buy the book. So far, unless I am mistaken, you haven't brought up much evidence to show us that the new Core Planescape lore has any more relevance to the Realms as that of 3.xE times. Which is also pointed out by the above poster.
But I'm fine with you saying that this is the best 4E book about.
But that's not to say that they're exactly the same.
Your problem is, you want us to see it your way without even deliver any proofs that your way is absolutly the one and only being the right way to see them.
Wrong, but we can ignore the falsehood of this for the moment...
You said e.g. that every mortal in their own plane sees and learn things differently. GH think of the Multiverse as a "great wheel", Toril since 3ed as a World Tree, others something else and you want us to accept that this is only a thing of seeing the whole through different eyes.
Wrong; I didn't say this is what it is. I pointed out that designers (like Rich Baker, Ed Greenwood, etc) have said this.
The problem is, Great Wheel and World Tree aren't compatible and that's all this is about. There exist two, maybe three, incomatible versions of a Multiverse for the settings and that's it.
See, this is where you are missing the point, I think. Think of it this way; in the kingdom of creation, you have the king with his set of laws.
After the king, you have the barons, who each rule over a sphere, who in turn have their own rules/laws for their area of influence. Provided that they follow the rules of the king, they can do as they see fit.
So, for example, Ao followed the dictates of the king, but he did so by using the tree design for his area of influence. GH's over power used the great wheel, DL's had his own way, etc...
All of them had ways to access the planes, as commanded by the king, but they did so in their own way.
Now, this is supported by the 4e MotP, and we can even speculate that it's possible the king decided that he wanted stricter regulation and/or a more uniform way for his kingdom, thus the cosmology changes.
Regardless, it is entirely possible (and, more importantly, supported by WotC) that each sphere can be both A) on the same mortal plane and B) have different governing rules for it's laws of nature.
There is the Planescape with their own, and that would be where the MoTP is set, there is GH and there is FR (Krynn is no longer supported, but they even have another understanding. There are no World Tree or Great Wheeles, there is only Krynn, the Hell ruled by Thakisis, the Worlds of Gilgeam, Paladine and where the souls of the mortals end by their krynnian gods and thats it). Different settings, different rules, different Gods. Maybe they share some aspects or names, but that's it. If anything in core products contradict things in the FR setting, than the core product is wrong in that particular feature. Even if this core product is the newer one. It is not FR specific and that are the sources which are important for playing FR. Nothing else. The other things can be used, but parts of them may be bended to fit, parts better left out.
See above.
Yes and No ... I have seen all Core Rule books of 4E, as well as the FRCG. I actually own the FRPG, thus know what there is to know about 4E FR - DDI material apart. And the knowledge therein - which is my statement of above - about the planes and the FR deities (not the rules nor the stats) come to a large extend from previous material. Maybe they have changed the core D&D lore regarding the planes in MotP (hence my "yes", since this is an assumption, based on 15 years of D&D-reading experience), but that does not bother me in the slightest, nor will entice me to buy the book. So far, unless I am mistaken, you haven't brought up much evidence to show us that the new Core Planescape lore has any more relevance to the Realms as that of 3.xE times. Which is also pointed out by the above poster.
But I'm fine with you saying that this is the best 4E book about.
I didn't say it was 'the best', but it is good. That said, it is best to know what you're discussing, instead of assuming.
Except for Sigil and the odd tidbit like the Doomguard, there's little that's "Planescape" about the 4e Manual of the Planes. Both the core multiverse and the FR multiverse use the same cosmology now - the World Axis, not the Great Tree or Great Wheel. So they are indeed more compatible now than they were in 3e.
But that's not to say that they're exactly the same.
Right, they aren't exactly the same, but they conform to the same general layout.
The problem is, Great Wheel and World Tree aren't compatible and that's all this is about.
Well, regading compatibility, I've always seen the Realms 3e Great Tree-planes (all except the Nine Hells and the Abyss) as being just a small part of the 'true' planes, e.g. the House of Triad (a finite plane, imo) being a part of Celestia (an infinite plane).
And so I easily managed it that two different cosmologies are compatible. No big deal, really.
So, for example, Ao followed the dictates of the king, but he did so by using the tree design for his area of influence. GH's over power used the great wheel, DL's had his own way, etc...
Greyhawk has no set overpower. Of all the setting-worlds imo only the Realms (Ao) and Krynn (High God) got one.
Greyhawk has no set overpower. Of all the setting-worlds imo only the Realms (Ao) and Krynn (High God) got one.
Right, some spheres may or may not have an over power. I think, in such a situation, it would conform to the basic standard of the next higher power, in this case, the king.
I covered this in another thread... or this one, I can't remember.
I didn't say it was 'the best', but it is good. That said, it is best to know what you're discussing, instead of assuming.
I'm pretty sure of what I am discussing, since I own most if not all of it. And as I said and asked above, it would be good if you can fill us in with some evidence from that book which validates your statements of above. Else, it is much like the older versions of it, just a Core book to be used as a tool, much like those of the Complete series.
I for one won't buy the MotP 4E just to check up some info that may or may not be relevant for the FR.
That from a Menzoberranzan Drow (Tos'un) who doesn't really hold any animosity toward Lolth (just Drow society in general).
I think that is some-what telling.
Greyhawk has no set overpower. Of all the setting-worlds imo only the Realms (Ao) and Krynn (High God) got one.
I think there was something about Io being the over-power of Greyspace?
Anyway, the cosmic canon is in such shambles at this point, ther is no right and wrong - it's however you imagine it to be (in YOUR game).
4e has given power back to the DMs...
...and the sourcebooks are worthless. ;)
I think there was something about Io being the over-power of Greyspace?
Officially, he's the creator-god in the Draconic pantheon, nothing more. I don't think any Greyhawk-specific source even mentions him, unless you consider Races of the Dragon to be Greyhawk-specific by virtue of being a 3.x core book (and I wouldn't). Oh, I guess the Living Greyhawk list of deities mentions him, but it just reprints the core stuff.
The pacts and taboos of the Greyhawk gods are tenuous and breakable; the greater deities are able to relax any restriction they have agreed on, in exchange for political favors (according to Iuz the Evil). I don't think this would be possible if Greyspace had an overpower in the way Krynnspace and Realmspace do. If Greyspace has overpowers, they're beings like the Serpent (who may be a hallucination on Vecna's part), Lady Tolerance and Proctor Chronos (apocryphal beings from Gary Gygax's non-TSR Greyhawk novels) - beings who look after their own affairs and could care less about what the gods do. They don't promote, demote, banish, or grant admission to deities as Ao does. They might not, in the canonical D&D universe, exist at all.
The pacts and taboos of the Greyhawk gods are tenuous and breakable; the greater deities are able to relax any restriction they have agreed on, in exchange for political favors (according to Iuz the Evil). I don't think this would be possible if Greyspace had an overpower in the way Krynnspace and Realmspace do.
Unless said overpower also happened to be lax about such restrictions.
Unless said overpower also happened to be lax about such restrictions.
Well, right, that's what I said. Which would mean they didn't have the same kind of overpower that Realmspace has, but a more lax one.The beings that I mentioned above, if they exist, are all unconcerned about non-intervention pacts and the like, leaving the gods to handle such matters themselves.
Do demons have divinity?
Question?
Do demons have divinity?
Nope, the archdemons and -devils apparently have the power to channel energy that counts (within the rules at least) as divine energy. But since it does not come from a deity, it ain't "divine" in the deity-sense of the word.
Ok, Heres another point for Lolth not being classified as a demon
Per Mr. Rich Baker over in the "Ask the Author/designer thread" in General Realmslore in reponse to KH and I quote" Lolth lost MUCH of her divinity and was exiled from the astral planes, Landing in the Abyss she decided to make herself into a demon queen. Over the ages she regained a lot of her divine standing".(it may not be word for word but feel free to examine the post yourselves on page 21 of the thread).
So if a canon source(who i assume everyone here thinks Mr. Baker is) claims that she never lost ALL her divinity then how can she be classified ast anything other than a goddess power not withstanding. BTW you can rule over a species/class/monsters without "Technically" having to be of the same species/class/monster etc..
I know this changes a view i posted before but I feel a need to change my view as a new canon source presented itself.
My take on the Lolth question is this: She was stripped of much of her divinity and exiled from the astral realms. Landing in the Abyss, she decided to make herself into a demon queen. Over the ages she's regained a lot of her divine standing.
My best answer for the different spheres notion these days is that they're "parallel universes" of each other. So you might see Asmodeus or Lolth in many different realities, but they're different individuals in each. If the Asmodeus-1 and Asmodeus-2 were to meet, I don't doubt that they'd see eye to eye on many things, and then immediately start scheming against each other. I think it's a much cleaner answer than what the F&P sidebar suggests.
:D
sorry I only have a G1 and can't do the fancy cut and pasteing that you do !
Nice blame your computer.
Now get back to having Drizzit's love child you freak. :P J/K of course. ;)
You've got it all wrong. I AM Drizzt's love child. Chogurugga got him drunk one night before he went to pirate cove to battle Sheila Kree and I am the result of that coupling. I am his shame. 
For some reason I am fond of baby ruths and chocollate milk
:P
Question?
Do demons have divinity?
Only those who are also gods.
Do demons have divinity?
-I won't bother answering, since plenty of others have. I will make a list of things that aren't deities, but can be on part with their "power levels", without being deities. It's not fully comprehensive, I am sure:
Archdevils
Demon Lords
Slaadi Lords
Primus, the One and Primary
The Celestial Hebdomad
The Court of Stars
Talisid and the Five Companions
Which would include druidic/nature magics, as well as spells derived from gods and non-deific sources (like fiends, or Djinn).
That system had three types of magic -
Essence is all types of 'regular' magic
Channeling is magic 'granted' by an external source
Mentalism is all magic empowered internally (psionics)
That system is at least twenty years old... and still way more advanced then what the WotC guys are doing. Calling something 'divine magic' that can be granted by Fiends is just wrong on so many levles....
-I won't bother answering, since plenty of others have. I will make a list of things that aren't deities, but can be on part with their "power levels", without being deities. It's not fully comprehensive, I am sure:
Archdevils
Demon Lords
Slaadi Lords
Primus, the One and Primary
The Celestial Hebdomad
The Court of Stars
Talisid and the Five Companions
Then there are the respective NE guys, e.g. the General of Gehenna, Mydianchlarus, Anthraxus, Charon, and so on (or Kexxon etc. if you prefer the Realms version). Actually I'm not sure if there is a canon term for all of these daemons/yugoloths, aside from the 13 baern who form the Demented.
And in canon Primus is considered a divine; he's a lesser deity, if I recall correctly.
Then there are the respective NE guys, e.g. the General of Gehenna, Mydianchlarus, Anthraxus, Charon, and so on (or Kexxon etc. if you prefer the Realms version). Actually I'm not sure if there is a canon term for all of these daemons/yugoloths, aside from the 13 baern who form the Demented.
For what it's worth, the precise number of baernaloths who comprise The Demented has never been stated in canon. The idea of their being 13 of them is something from my fiction. Of course, some of the canon on them comes from me (Harishek ap Thulkesh), so take the number as you will, but that enumeration never went into print.
I so wish I'd gotten a chance to write about them more extensively before Dragon ceased print.
Then there are the respective NE guys, e.g. the General of Gehenna, Mydianchlarus, Anthraxus, Charon, and so on (or Kexxon etc. if you prefer the Realms version). Actually I'm not sure if there is a canon term for all of these daemons/yugoloths, aside from the 13 baern who form the Demented.
Archyugoloth, I suppose, though I've never seen that word in print. Archoloth would be less cumbersome. Let's go with that. I've never seen that in print, either.
Anthraxus, Bubonix, Charon, Cholerix, Taba, Typhus, and Xengahra are collectively called altraloths, because they have been altered from their original forms by night hag magic.
Mydianchlarus, the General of Gehenna, and/or Kexxon seem to be simply ultroloths - extremely powerful ones, but with standard ultroloth forms.
And in canon Primus is considered a divine; he's a lesser deity, if I recall correctly.
-Primus, in On Hallowed Ground, is defined as a 'Near Power' (as are Demon Lords, Archdevils, The Lady of Pain, and so on) who "is about equal to a greater power on his own merit". Though the text's first sentence mentions Primus as a deity ("The Clockwork G-d"), his inclusion in the 'Near Powers', as opposed to being in a chapter with any of the other various deities, demonstrates to me that he isn't a "true" deity. The special method in which a 'new' Primus is selected also differentiates him from "true" deities, in a way.
You'd also have to add the Noble Djinn to that (which includes the four main Djinn Lords).
Maybe the original Shadevari...
Lots of beings fall outside of the normal structure.
There are also the Wind Dukes of Aaqa
There wasn't really anything godlike about them though. They were just a powerful race of natives of Elemental Air.
-Yes, definitely the Shadevari. They were so powerful that they had to be locked away, rather than outright dealt with by the deities. Then again, being as that they were so fairly easily bested in Curse of the Shadowmage and Crypt of the Shadowking, maybe those myths aren't so accurate after all...
They were tough cookies for PCs in AD&D ... and used as nice fluff in those novels.
-Primus, in On Hallowed Ground, is defined as a 'Near Power' (as are Demon Lords, Archdevils, The Lady of Pain, and so on) who "is about equal to a greater power on his own merit". Though the text's first sentence mentions Primus as a deity ("The Clockwork G-d"), his inclusion in the 'Near Powers', as opposed to being in a chapter with any of the other various deities, demonstrates to me that he isn't a "true" deity. The special method in which a 'new' Primus is selected also differentiates him from "true" deities, in a way.
The 3e web enhancement The Modrons says: "Primus is a lesser deity of Mechanus and the ruler of the entire modron realm."
Pretty clear.
There wasn't really anything godlike about them though. They were just a powerful race of natives of Elemental Air.
There isn't really anything godlike about demons, too. Yet a few of them are indeed godlike in power. So I see no reason why some of the vaati couldn't be placed on this level, too.
They were tough cookies for PCs in AD&D ... and used as nice fluff in those novels.
-Supposed to be tough cookies for various greater deities as well...Eh, from what we saw, not exactly, I am thinking...
The 3e web enhancement The Modrons says: "Primus is a lesser deity of Mechanus and the ruler of the entire modron realm."
Pretty clear.
-If 3e said it, then we know to ignore it! ;)
Sad part is, I see the 4e books start-out with the same amount of contradiction that took seven years to accumulate in 3e. At least in 3e, sources were consistent with themselves.
-Supposed to be tough cookies for various greater deities as well...Eh, from what we saw, not exactly, I am thinking...
That's the problem with myth and reality, even in fantasy settings.
BTW, for those interested, the shadevari are described in the Villain's Lorebook, which is a free download over at the Wizards' homepage.
Sad part is, I see the 4e books start-out with the same amount of contradiction that took seven years to accumulate in 3e. At least in 3e, sources were consistent with themselves.
-On Hallowed Ground is a 2e sourcebook. It's just superior to basically every other supplement on the matter of deities that has ever been published, for the most part.
In 3e it started-out that way, and then after Hasbro bought WotC and the 'Brain Drain' started to occur, consistency was chucked-out in favor of several people's 'personal views'. By the end, FR began to look look four seperate homebrews stitched together.
Then in 4e they took the next 'logical' step, and it actually did become four different homebrews stitched togther. I don't know of any other setting where there are parts of a single sourcebook that contradicts other parts of the same book - it's ridiculous.
No-one is bothering to read or listen to what the others are doing. 4eFR is just a mess, and they are not even willing to own-up to the fact that they completely screwed it up.
The only savings-grace is that they won't bother to touch it again until 5e comes out a couple of years from now. This is the very first time in my long association with the hobby where I am hoping the company does NOT produce any more material for a setting I love.
Oh... errrr.... and it's all Lolth's fault!!! :P
-The War of the Spider Queen is a good example of that, from the novel side of things, as opposed to the sourcebook design side of things. What is the most common cited problem that the series suffers from (asides for the constant bombardment that in the Drow language, there is no true word for 'friend')? That personalities and motives are shifting almost radically from one book to the next, as different authors came on board to write the next installment.
Though my wife is pretty convinced we won't actually see a 5e version of the Realms, just as a side note.
Ssssshhhh... LK is watching...
I think there will be a 5eFR (probably sooner then 4e lovers think), and I also think they'll try to reverse a few things - it may even start out with the Return of Mystra or some-such idiocy. The won't turn back the clock - in fact, they'll probably throw it way forward again, but they'll try to 'undo' some of their worser ideas (which is almost the whole setting at this point).
I doubt sales are currently anywhere near where they were when 4e came out, which means big ol' corporate Hasbro will look at that, and turn to the design team and say "that... do THAT again..."
And thats how 5e will happen.
Then when the last few customers they have finally 'wake-up' and smell the coffee, they'll go running for Paizo...
As it should be...
Hasbro won't care... they really bought WotC for MtG anyway.
). Also by PHB2 performing "extremely strongly" it managed to make good progress on the likes of Amazon for a RPG book of its type (Amazon link). Additionally, it managed to rank highly on the Wall Street Journals top 15 non-fiction books on the week it was released. So please, can you at least check basic facts using google before spouting purely baseless rantings?
Edit: Nearly forgot, Arcane Power for comparison. Once again with a very strong sales rank on Amazon as I claimed.
And in fact, here is the entire sales ranking for Amazon books for RPGs in general. Seven of the top ten books in this category are 4th edition books, two of which are the core books (Although the core 4E PHB is counted twice: once for the gift set and once again for the individual book).
Looking through other sources than Amazon, I see similar trends in roleplaying books, especially compared with their competition (themselves, eg older editions and other companies like White Wolf). I do note that the vast majority of the Amazons top sellers list for roleplaying books are 4E.
I'm sure that's just because wizards are failing though, right Markus
I really can't comment on things starting off tight in 3e, and then becoming looser as time went on, but I do agree that 4e is a mess, in that, to our perceptions, the left hand doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing half the time.
From a 4EFR perspective with all the shifting of things that occurred I agree with you to a large extent. It's the mess that has been left after the chickens head was cut off (3E) and then it ran through a wood chipper (what's left in 4E). This is largely why I've been dumping and simply rewriting most of the FR cosmology. I've gone back to almost pre-ToT stuff as well for general inspiration and ideas, which I still think was the beginning of the end of any logical consistency in FR.
The "core" cosmology though has been arranged in a way that is actually consistent and is far from a mess. Unfortunately that's not the cosmology we are using :P
Of course, I like how the fact I pointed out a source that showed the PHBII made the Wall Street Journal top best seller list for non-fiction has also been ignored. But I am rather done here, having conclusively proved my point for the time being with resources that anyone can find for themselves by simply clicking links I provided. Instead of baseless speculation.
So Lloth is making 4E successful?
no I heard she had this law suit filed against Shar for misrepresentation.
of course I also heard Shar had a restraining order against her.
Lord AO presiding
-Just a quick "tangent": For those who care/are following/on the fence/whatever, Rich answered krownhunter's query.
Would you please provide a link?
Hope that helps.
My take on the Lolth question is this: She was stripped of much of her divinity and exiled from the astral realms. Landing in the Abyss, she decided to make herself into a demon queen. Over the ages she's regained a lot of her divine standing.
Interesting, on that Amazon list FRCS (74th place) outsells FRCG (80th)
Well, after 10 years on the market one would hope so. But the Campaign Setting is bound to be sold in abundance, as many gamer - new and old - would want to know what happened to the Realms, especially after the Time Warp.
Still, that list does not tell me that much. In essence, they are some Amazon figures about some Amazon related stuff. And we all know Winston Churchill's saying, don't we?
Actually sales of 4E are pretty good and the last books released, PHB2 sold extremely strongly and so did Arcane Power. So I have no idea where you are getting this crap from, but it's boring and it has nothing to do with the topic and I've heard this about a billion times now (including last year when 4E was supposed to be a fad for a few months
There are the same number of 3e games scheduled for Gencon as there are 4e ones. It is the first time in Gencon history where a 'shelved' edition carries equal weight with the current one..
If that is not telling, then I don't know what is.
:D
There are the same number of 3e games scheduled for Gencon as there are 4e ones. It is the first time in Gencon history where a 'shelved' edition carries equal weight with the current one..
If that is not telling, then I don't know what is.
It's partly because a lot of people still play older settings that have not updated or have no update to 4E possible due to the new OGL license (which I admit sucks for people). As there are lot of these and the registrations (last I looked) were for 3E and other related non-WotC published settings under that I am not entirely surprised it's rather high.
For example, my friend in the US attending Gencon is running 3E because the setting he wants to play (I think Iron Kingdoms) is not being updated to 4E. So he's running that in 3E because he doesn't feel like doing a massive amount of work to convert everything. He also planned to run this well before Gencon and before 4E as well.
So considering the wide variety of different 3rd party products that people like and want to run with regards to 3E, it's more reasonable to state 3E and various 3E variants (3.5, 3.75 aka Pathfinder and such) just about match (but actually there are more 4E player slots available by about 500-1000 last time I looked) 4E. That's the more correct statement.
But PnP and Tabletop games are doing very well actually as an aside in general. It seems an economic recession makes people turn to their books for entertainment :P
Edit: On the flipside of this however, RPGA numbers (such as LFR) are much higher since the release of 4th edition. A fact you conveniently ignore :P
:D
My take on the Lolth question is this: She was stripped of much of her divinity and exiled from the astral realms. Landing in the Abyss, she decided to make herself into a demon queen. Over the ages she's regained a lot of her divine standing.
Well on one thing we're more or less on the same page. ;)
Well on one thing we're more or less on the same page. ;)
-Looking at his answer, though, it is pretty vague (on purpose, or just coincidentally). Not that it matters one way or the other, but...
Anyway, as I said earlier, RAS refers to her as Lolth in his newer novels, so the whole idea that 'Lloth' was a 'regional variant' is now defunct.
On the flipside of this however, RPGA numbers (such as LFR) are much higher since the release of 4th edition. A fact you conveniently ignore :P
So, instead of twenty guys, you have doubled that number? ;)
Hasbro is a major international corporation - ANY figure under a 100,000 is insignificant, and will probably come under scrutiny during yearly reviews.
You mention that RPGA thing as though it were positive... I've yet to see any proof in any edition that such a thing would be construed as "good".
Are you trying to say that the Aircraft Carrier and other 'kewl' stuff in the Ravensbluff products should be ignored?
You know... like most real realms fans do?
TBO Rich's answer isn't really vague. He claims that Lolth still had some of her original divinity left when she was cast out. To me that seems no different than when Ao cast the gods from their astral planes and stripped them of most of their divinity. Should those gods be classified as whatever avatars they were forced/chose to become? If so then when some e asks "What gods were once mortal?" then all the gods that were cast out during the ToT should be on that list right?
Anyway, as I said earlier, RAS refers to her as Lolth in his newer novels, so the whole idea that 'Lloth' was a 'regional variant' is now defunct.
-Eh...Good riddance, then. Not that I disliked it or anything, and it certainly added some personification to things, but...
I can't really determine from his answer if Lolth became an actual daemon during her time there and is not a daemon + divinity now or not.
-Lolth was never a Yugoloth at any point. But, yes, that's how I meant it, with his response.
Are you trying to say that the Aircraft Carrier and other 'kewl' stuff in the Ravensbluff products should be ignored?
You know... like most real realms fans do?
Whoah, whoah, whoah... aircraft carrier? I missed that one somehow... wow, and here I didn't think it could get any worse.
I thought the Victorian prison hulk ships with the Loviatans in charge (pretty much straight out of Dickens) was bad enough...
Are you trying to say that the Aircraft Carrier and other 'kewl' stuff in the Ravensbluff products should be ignored?
*blink* Wait, wha? Explanation, I demand it. Though I may regret asking.
Aircraft Carrier
This now an Exalted thread!
If so then when some e asks "What gods were once mortal?" then all the gods that were cast out during the ToT should be on that list right?
No, since Mask was a sword at that time. :P
Didn't Mask just end up being an aspect of Shar? So "technically" Shar just lent her power to the sword. Similar to what Mystra did with her pendant she gave to Midnight :P
You know, I was honestly hoping you were kidding...
But then I remembered this is the RPGA we were talking about...
So... yeah.
Sad for certain FR lore, that is.
Anyhow, those things are still funny as hell.
And that name... Spike McGurk...
Hmmmm
I take back all of the negative things I have ever said about you Drizzts;)manchild. :D
For now. :evillaugh
Yes, this is true... according to that lovely little retcon of Shar sticking her nose into things yet again... *yawn*
Yes, lovely isn't it!
That picture is by far one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.
You can say that again.
:D
Some things are just so awful, they come full-circle and are good again (in a ridiculous, over-the-top sort of way).
Sadly, that was from Port of Ravens Bluff, which isn't available for free download (although the City book is).
And while trying to find something in that book pertaining to this abomination, I wound-up finding info pertinent to another thread.
Don't you just love serendipity. :D
The are a bunch of large ships re-configured so that his Gooney Bird-riding Tasloi airforce can launch and land at-sea. You can read all about them in the various Raven's Bluff (RPGA) products.
Yes... they really ARE called 'Gooney Birds'.
-I am quoting this for Rin, to prove the existence of Gooney Birds, which, up until now, have theoretically been figments of my imagination. Unless MT is somehow (and convolutedly) part of my own sentience, there is at least someone else who knows of Gooney Birds.
Which means my universe is about to explode in an endless logic loop of destruction!
You're both unfortunately figments of JD's imagination. Sorry, its a little depressing I know, but the proof is incontrovertable...
Ah....It all makes sense now Stigg, JD sitting in a rocking chair in a mental ward while staring at a snow globe of the world. Worlds within Worlds I should've realized this before. Idiot ...Gooosssh ;)
How did I get dragged into this, you CENCORED's? I was just minding my own business.
Lloth sux and so do you.
:D
Nobody takes a nerf bat to me--NOBODY!!!
Well...somebody could. But you just aren't dead sexy.
Sort of... except you forgot the part about me in the white uniform standing over him with a nerf-bat hitting him in the head repeatedly and madly cackling. :evillaugh
:D
Good loving therapy. Put him in a strait jacket, and whack him with a Kendo stick, for true loving. This will hurt me More than it will hurt you!
Araushnee, devil-empress of turnips? :P
The Demon Bitch Queen of Darkness.
Yay.
:P
So, anybody care to guess at what Lolth will be in 5e?
I'm becoming positively disinterested in what appears and goes on here ...
Good loving therapy. Put him in a strait jacket, and whack him with a Kendo stick, for true loving. This will hurt me More than it will hurt you!
Bejebuz take you and put you in hot sauce hell!!! I almost liked you!!!
I'm becoming positively disinterested in what appears and goes on here ...
You are so dead sexy. I SO need a Delicious and sexy dolly-bird!. ;)
;)
Oh, wait, public forum... nevermind that last one... :D
That sounds more like the behavior of a Drow - are you sure you don't worship Lolth, stigger?
(see how I brought that back around, kiddies?) ;)
That sounds more like the behaviour of a Drow - are you sure you don't worship Lolth, stigger?
(see how I brought that back around, kiddies?) ;)
Dr. Manthingy ...no.
;)
Split the 'divine feminine' aspect of his androgyny off into a Lilith-like betrayer and corrupter?
You know, I could kind of see that actually...
LOL - they are going to do to Corellon what Races of the Wild did to Yondalla? :D
-What did they do in Races of the Wild to Yondella? Was that where there were like two aspects- one the "loving mother", and one the "roguish imp"?
So... would you rather let Stigger powerbomb you through a flaming table, or chokeslam you into 10,000 tacks?
;)
I prefer his whips. You have no idea how retardedly perverted he is until those come out. :D
LOL - they are going to do to Corellon what Races of the Wild did to Yondalla? :D
Split the 'divine feminine' aspect of his androgyny off into a Lilith-like betrayer and corrupter?
They'd have to remember that he was even supposed to be both male and female first. :P
(The truth is actually that Corellon is good and always has been, but his evil twin brother Nolleroc keeps trying to ruin his reputation. Lolth is just her own crazy *bleep*.
)Damned ebil elvsusus.
;)
:D